10.28.2022

October 28, 2022

Haitian ambassador Bocchit Edmond discusses compounding crises in his country. Dr. Manfret McGhee, father of a St. Louis high school shooting victim, reflects on gun violence in the U.S. Reproductive justice expert Kimberly Mutcherson explains the “devastating” consequences of the Supreme Court’s overturn of Roe v. Wade. Nobel prize-winning author Mario Vargas Llosa discusses his new book.

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HELLO AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY'.

A COUNTRY ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE.

WHAT CAN SAVE HAITI?

> THEN.

THIS WAS THE PERFECT STORM FOR A MASS SHOOTING.

HORROR ON REPEAT.

YET, ANOTHER U.S. SCHOOL SHOOTING THIS WEEK.

THIS TIME IN ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI.

I SPEAK TO SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR McGEE WHO SURVIVED BUT FOUND HIS OWN SON SHOT AND INJURED.

> PLUS.

IN THE END, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE INEVITABLY GOING TO SEE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF DOBBS IS MORE DEAD WOMEN AND MORE DEAD BABIES.

RUTGERS LAW SCHOOL KIMBERLY TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF AMERICA'S EVER TIGHTENING ABORTION LAWS AND FINALLY.

IT WAS A WAY OVER TO SEDUCE PEOPLE AND THE ART OF WINNING AND HIS LATEST WORK, A CHILDREN'S BOOK

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COUP AND PATRICIA UWIN.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

THE PHAM FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKI STRAUSS.

WE TRY TO NOT MISS WHAT IS IN FRONT OF US.

WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M SARA SIDNER IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE.

HAITI STANDS ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE.

THE GOVERNMENT IS PARALYZED BY COMPOUNDING CRISIS, INTENSE ARMED GANG VIOLENCE AND AN OUTBREAK SPREADING THROUGH THE POOREST NEIGHBORHOODS.

THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT LAST YEAR CREATE ED A LEADERSHIP VACUUM AND IN SEPTEMBER ARMED GANGS SEIZED A FOOD, WATER AND POWER PROBLEM AND HOSPITALS ARE SHUTTING DOWN AND MILLIONS OF HAITIANS FACE FOOT DEPRIVATION.

THERE WAS A REQUEST TO RESTORE PEACE AND SECURITY THERE.

U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SAYS THE U.N. IS PREPARING A RESOLUTION IN SUPPORT OF AN ASSISTANCE MISSION BUT SO FAR, NO COUNTRY HAS STEPPED UP TO LEAD, WHY IS THAT?

HAITI'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES TOLD 'THE WASHINGTON POST' THE SITUATION IF WE LEAVE IT THAT WAY CAN LEAD US TO HUMAN CATASTROPHE AND THE LEADER JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GOOD AFTERNOON, SARA.

PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

WE JUST TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THE MANY THINGS THAT HAITI IS FACING.

AND I AM CURIOUS FROM YOU WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HAITI IS IN SUCH DIRE STRAIGHTS RIGHT NOW?

IT IS UNFORTUNATE TO SEE THAT, TO SEE THIS UNFOLDING UNDER OUR EYES BUT THIS IS MANY YEARS OF MISMANAGEMENT.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT BUT A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THOSE BUT TODAY, WE ARE JUST FEELING THE RESULTS OF THOSE YEARS.

AND IT'S A COUNTRY UNDER COLLAPSE.

I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE.

U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE JUST READ SOME THINGS BUT ANTONY BLINKEN HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE WITH THE CANADIAN FOREIGN MINISTER AND HE TALKED ABOUT A DRAFT RESOLUTION THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO SAY?

A SHARED VIEW THAT MORE LIKELY NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR THE NATIONAL POLICE IN SUPPORT OF THEM TO ALLOW THEM TO GET A GRIP OF SECURITY AND TAKE BACK THESE PARTS OF THE CAPITOL THAT THE GANGS HAVE BEEN DOMINATING SO THERE IS NOW A SECOND DRAFT RESOLUTION AT THE UNITED NATIONS AFTER THE INITIAL RESOLUTION ON SANCTIONS THAT WOULD AUTHORIZE A NON-U.N. INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE MISSION TO IMPROVE THE SECURITY SITUATION AND ENABLE THE FLOW OF DESPERATELY NEEDED HUMANITARIAN AID TO HAITI.

AND SO WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE, WHAT WOULD IT NEED AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING TO A VARIETY OF COUNTRIES TO GAUGE THEIR INTEREST IN WILLINGNESS TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT.

I'M CURIOUS, DO YOU OR YOUR GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW SUPPORT A MILITARY INTERVENTION BY OUTSIDE NATIONS?

LISTEN, THE WORLD IS A GLOBAL VILLAGE AS WE ALWAYS SAY.

THEREFORE, HAITI NOW AS A MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS FACING SUCH DIRE SITUATION WHERE IT IS REALLY UNDER GRABS OF OUR GANGS, FIREPOWER EVEN MORE SUPERIOR THAN THE POLICE FORCE WE HAVE AND THEREFORE, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO CALL INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, OUR INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS TO HELP.

IT'S LIKE YOU ARE CALLING YOUR NEIGHBOR WHEN YOUR HOUSE IS UNDER FIRE.

I MEAN, IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE ARE CALLING FOR AN OCCUPATION WHATSOEVER.

IT'S ONLY INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE THAT CAN HELP THE NATIONAL POLICE TO REGAIN CONTROL AND RESTORE LAW AND ORDER BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCEPT THAT AT THIS DAY IN AGE, 44 MILLION KIDS ARE NOT BEING ABLE TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

GRANDMA, GRANDPA IF THEY NEED TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL, THEY CAN'T GO BECAUSE ROADS ARE BLOCKED.

IF YOU NEED DIALYSIS, YOU CAN'T GET IT.

IT'S A DIRE SITUATION THAT WE CANNOT STAY OUT OF AND LOOKING AT IT.

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING.

AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO SOMETHING IS THE ASSISTANCE OF OUR INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS.

I MEAN, I'VE SPEND MY YOUTH IN MIAMI WHERE THERE IS A HUGE HAITIAN POPULATION AND IT JUST IS A DAGGER TO THE HEART TO SEE HAITI GOING THROUGH THIS YET AGAIN.

I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT, THOUGH, INTERVENTION AND SOME OF THE FAILURES OF INTERVENTIONS AND TIMES PAST.

THERE IS AT LEAST THREE MAJOR FOREIGN MILITARY INTERVENTIONS IN HAITI SINCE THE TIME OF HAITI'S INDEPENDENCE FROM FRANCE IN 1904 AND THE U.S. PEACE KEEPING OPERATIONS AND ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT AND SOMETHING THE U.N. APOLOGIZE GAZED FOR WHICH IS CHOLERA TO HAITI, WHICH IS SOMETHING THEY'RE DEALING WITH NOW.

WHY CALL FOR MILITARY INTERVENTION FROM THE U.S. OR ELSEWHERE IF YOU'VE SEEN SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS BEFORE?

YES, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

WE HAD REALLY BAD EXPERIENCES WITH PARTICULARLY THE U.N.

FORCES THAT STAY IN THE COUNTRY FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS.

IT IS A FACT.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT IT IS ALSO A FACT LOOKING AT A COUNTRY WHERE EVERYONE IS TALKING INSIDE THE HOUSE.

THEY CANNOT GO OUT.

ALL PRIVATE BUSINESSES ARE CRUSHING DOWN.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO UNEMPLOYMENT AND PEOPLE THAT NEED CARE CANNOT GO AND GET CARE SO THIS IS THE REAL FACT.

UNDERSTAND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS WE NEED TO FIND A WAY NOT TO REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKES.

AS THE U.S. SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID IT'S GOING TO BE A NON-U.N.

INTERNATIONAL COALITION AND I BELIEVE THAT THAT'S THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE GOING BUT AT THE SAME TIME I SAID BEFORE, IT WON'T BE AN INTERVENTION.

IT IS GOING TO BE AN INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE TO THE NATIONAL POLICE NOT TO COME TO THE JOB FOR THE NATIONAL POLICE BUT WHAT WE ARE SEEKING IS TO COME TO HELP THE NATIONAL POLICE TO DO THE JOB TO RESTORE ORDER AND SO WE CAN CREATE A BETTER ENVIRONMENT FOR THE PEOPLE OR KID KIDS TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL EVERY CITIZEN CAN MANAGE THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND TO PREPARE TO CARVE THE WAY FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS BECAUSE OUR DEMOCRACY NEEDS TO BE RESTORED.

LET ME TALK TO YOU ABOUT ELECTIONS.

AT THIS POINT IN TIME, WE HAVEN'T SEEN AN ELECTION SINCE 2016 AND THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF ISSUES.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAD PROTESTS IN PORT-au-PRINCE OVER THE POSSIBILITY OF NEW FOREIGN INTERVENTION AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE SEVERAL THINGS COMING FORWARD ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER HENRY.

ONE OF WHICH IS A JUDGE BASICALLY SAYING HE DETERMINED THAT MR. HENRY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF JOVINEL.

WHEN DO THE ELECTIONS COME AND WHEN DID YOU MAKE THIS DETERMINATION THAT MR. HENRY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT?

I MEAN, UP UNTIL NOW, IT'S NOT BEEN PROVEN, WHEREVER WE ARE IN POLITICS, THERE IS ALWAYS ACCUSATIONS AND THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THAT BEFORE.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BUT WE'LL LET OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM WORK BECAUSE WE JUST DON'T WANT TO BE MEDDLING INTO THE PROCEDURES.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US FOR ALL HAITIAN TO WORK TOGETHER AND FIND A NATIONAL CONSENSUS AND WHILE GETTING HELP FROM THE INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS BUT AT THE SAME TIME WORKING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PREPARE THE GROUND TO HAVE FREE AND FAIR DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS.

IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO TALK ABOUT TO HAVE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS SET UP AGAIN BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE DON'T HAVE ANY.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO PUSH FOR ELECTIONS BUT BEFORE GETTING TO ELECTIONS, WE NEED TO RESTORE LAW AND ORDER AND OUR NATIONAL POLICE ITSELF CANNOT, BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO RESOLVE EVERYTHING, BECAUSE THE GUNS ARE WELL ARMED, THE FIREPOWER IS FAR MORE SUPERIOR THAN THE NATIONAL POLICE, THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN SOLVE THIS ON OURSELF.

WE NEED INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE.

AMBASSADOR, YOU'RE SAYING THERE IS NO WAY TO SOLVE THIS FROM YOURSELF AND YOU NEED INTERVENTION FROM OTHER NATIONS.

SINCE PRIME MINISTER HENRY WAS NOT VOTED INTO OFFICE, HE HAS BEEN THERE NOW FOR ABOUT A YEAR'S TIME SINCE THE ASSASSINATION, WHEN DID THOSE ELECTIONS HAPPEN?

DO YOU HAVE A DATE TO SAY LET'S PUT THIS FORWARD BECAUSE SOME OF THE UNREST IS LIKELY COMING FROM PEOPLE THINKING MR. HENRY IS AN ILLEGITIMATE LEADER.

WHOEVER GETS IN POWER NOW WOULD GET THE SAME JUDGMENT AND CONSIDERATION BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS SOMEONE HAS TO DO THEIR JOB AND IT HAPPENS TO BE PRIME MINISTER HAS THE JOB BUT THE END MISSION IS TO HOLD ELECTIONS AND FOR THE PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THEIR LEGITIMATE LEADERS BUT WE CANNOT TALK ABOUT ELECTIONS TODAY AND THE ENVIRONMENT WHERE KIDS CANNOT GO TO SCHOOL AND NOBODY CAN GO TO WORK.

PUBLIC OFFICIALS, PRIVATE BUSINESSES ARE CLOSING DOWN BECAUSE FOR SECURITY REASON PEOPLE CANNOT GO OUT.

WE NEED TO RESTORE LAW AND ORDER.

IT'S BEEN SIX YEARS SINCE THERE HAS BEEN AN ELECTION IN HAITI AND IT SEEMS THAT YOU CAN CERTAINLY TALK ABOUT IT AND TRY AND FIGURE OUT WHEN THIS MIGHT -- WHEN THIS MIGHT WORK.

ISN'T IT A GOOD TIME FOR ELECTIONS IF YOU GET THAT HELP?

CAN YOU SAY THE MOMENT WE GET THE HELP WE'LL START THE PROCESS?

OF COURSE.

LET ME GIVE YOU THAT GUARANTEE.

IF WE HAVE -- WHILE WE ARE WORKING WITH INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, WE COME TO THE POINT WHERE LAW AND ORDER ARE BEING RESTORED WITH THE HELP OF THE INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS.

WE CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT THE POLICY HOLDERS CURRENTLY WORKING TO FUND THE NATIONAL CONSENSUS AND I BELIEVE OUT OF THAT THERE WILL BE THE ONE TO DECIDE AND PROPOSE THE GOVERNMENT THE DATE WHERE ELECTIONS CAN BE HELD BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT, THE EXECUTIVE ITSELF CANNOT DECIDE ON THE ELECTORAL DATE.

THE MEMBERS, THEY HAVE TO DECIDE THEMSELVES WITH TECHNICIANS WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE, WHEN IT IS FEASIBLE.

THAT'S WHAT I CAN TELL YOU NOW.

OKAY.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS, I KNOW YOU CANNOT -- NO ONE GETS TO START HISTORY WHERE THEY START AND HAITI'S INDEPENDENCE WAS WELCOMED FORMER SLAVES THAT CREATED THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND THE UNITED STATES DIDN'T CONSIDER HAITI TRADE OR DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS UNTIL DECADES AFTER THE INDEPENDENCE.

THERE IS A HISTORY HAPPENING HERE THAT PLAYS INTO THIS ROLE BUT HAITI HAS ISSUES WITH CORRUPTION AND THE COUNTRY SEEN SOMETHING LIKE 30 COUPS SINCE THE INDEPENDENT.

HOW MUCH OF THE SITUATION IN HAITI IS A PROBLEM WITH THE LOCAL LEADERSHIP AND HOW MUCH OF THE SITUATION IN HAITI IS A PROBLEM WITH HOW HAITI HAS BEEN TREATED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS?

YEAH, AS YOU WELL PUT OUT, WE DO HAVE A VERY SHAKY HISTORY WITH INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS WE HAVE TODAY.

THOSE ARE HISTORICAL FACTS AND THOSE ARE ALSO THE PAST.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO WORK WITH INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, OUR INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WORK TO BUILD A NEW HAITI BUT A NEW HAITI CAN BE BUILT WITHOUT THE YOUTH, WITHOUT THE MEMBERS OF CIVIL SOCIETY, WITHOUT THE STAKE HOLDERS OF THE SOCIETY.

THAT'S WHERE IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A NATIONAL CONSENSUS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE BUILT A NEW COUNTRY AND DEFINE A NEW WAY FORWARD FOR THIS COUNTRY BUT BY THINK THE OF THE FUTURE OF THE KIDS BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE HAITI TODAY TO THE NEXT GENERATION.

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING TODAY.

I MUST TELL YOU, WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING NOW ON OURSELF.

WE NEED INTERNATIONAL HELP BECAUSE THE SITUATION IS REALLY DIRE AND THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN GO FORWARD WITHOUT THAT INTERNATIONAL HELP.

OURSELF ALONE, WE CANNOT.

WE NEED TO BUILT THE POLITICAL STABILITY AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN CALL AND WE CAN HAVE INVESTMENT AND I MUST TELL YOU AS WELL WE ARE WORKING WITH CONGRESS, WITH THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS TO RENEW THE HOPE AND HAVE LAW THAT HAS BEEN VOTED TEN YEARS AGO AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE THAT GIVE HAITI A LOT OF POSSIBILITIES TO EXPORT TO THE U.S. MARKET BUT UNFORTUNATELY, DUE TO POLITICAL INSTABILITY, WE STILL CANNOT REALLY ENJOY THAT LAW TO THE FULLEST EXTENT.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED POLITICAL STABILITY.

AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

IN GENERAL IT'S THE SAFETY OF THE PEOPLE OF HAITI, AS WELL.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

TO ANOTHER COUNTRY GRIPPED BY VIOLENCE, THOUGH, THIS TIME ONE OF THE WORLD'S RICHEST AND MOST POWERFUL NATIONS, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

MONDAY MORNING ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING IN ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI CENTRAL AND VISUAL ARTS PERFORMANCE HIGH SCHOOL.

STUDENTS HEARD AN OMINOUS MESSAGE.

MILES DAVIS IS IN THE BUILDING.

THAT WAS THE SECRET CODE TO INFORM STUDENTS A GUNMAN WAS INSIDE THE SCHOOL.

THE SHOOTER A RECENT GRADUATE WAS ARMED AND 600 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION AND KILLED A 61-YEAR-OLD TEACHER AND A 15-YEAR-OLD SOPHOMORE.

SEVEN OTHERS WERE INJURED.

THIS MORNING ABOUT 9:10 A.M.

WE RECEIVED A CALL FOR AN ACTIVE SHOOTER.

OFFICERS ARRIVED WITHIN A COUPLE MINUTES OF THE CALL GOING OUT.

THEY IMMEDIATELY MADE ENTRY INTO THE SCHOOL, AS KIDS WERE FLEEING OUT OF THE BUILDING, THERE WAS A SHOOTER WITH A LONG GUN.

OFFICERS BEGAN TO FLEE THE BUILDING.

UPON HEARING GUNFIRE, THEY RAN TO THE GUNFIRE AND LOCATED THE SHOOTER AND ENGAGED THE SHOOTER IN EXCHANGE OF GUNFIRE.

THE SUSPECT WAS STRUCK AND TRANSPORTED FROM THIS LOCATION AND THAT SUSPECT HAS SINCE BEEN PRONOUNCED DECEASED.

AND IN THIS CASE, THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT BEFORE ALL THIS HAPPENED TO INTERVENE IN THE SUSPECT'S LIFE.

POLICE HAD TAKEN HIS GUN AWAY DAYS BEFORE THE ATTACK.

IT IS NOT CLEAR HOW HE GOT THAT WEAPON BACK.

THIS WAS THE 67th SHOOTING THIS YEAR TO HAPPEN IN AN AMERICAN SCHOOL OR ON AN AMERICAN SCHOOL GROUNDS.

McGEE IS THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE HIGH SCHOOL AND CAME FACE-TO-FACE WITH THE SHOOTER ONLY TO LEARN LATER THAT HIS SON ANTHONY A STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL WAS INJURED IN THE ATTACK.

I WANT TO WELCOME YOU TO THE PROGRAM, SIR.

THANK YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FIRST, I WANT TO ASK HOW YOU ARE DOING AND HOW YOUR SON IS DOING.

I'M DOING OKAY.

I'M STILL IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENED.

ANTHONY IS RECOVERING AT HOME.

AND HE'S DOING OKAY.

IT'S GOING TO BE A PROCESS FOR ALL OF US.

WHAT ARE HIS INJURIES IF YOU DON'T MIND SHARING WITH US AND WHAT IS HE BEING TOLD HE'LL HAVE TO DO TO HEAL FROM THEM?

WELL, HIS INJURY, HE WAS SHOT IN HIS UPPER THIGH ON HIS RIGHT LEG WITH THE HIGH-POWERED RIFLE.

THE BULLET WENT THROUGH HIS LEG, CAME OUT THE OTHER SIDE AND HE SUSTAINED SOME OTHER INJURIES TO OTHER BODY PARTS AND WE'RE BEING TOLD IT WILL BE A LONG PROCESS FOR HIM TO HEAL.

WE HAVE TO CHANGE HIS DRESSINGS COUPLE TIMES A DAY.

AND FROM THE LOOKS OF THE INJURY, IT'S GOING TO TAKE AWHILE FOR IT TO HEAL.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T SEE, THEY HEAR ABOUT THE DEAD AND THEY MOURN THEM BUT THE INJURED, FROM THESE HIGH POWERED RIFLES, THE INJURIES ARE SO EXTENSIVE AND EXTREME, A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T KNOW HOW DIRE IT IS AND FOR THIS AGAIN TO HAPPEN IN A SCHOOL, I WANT YOU TO TAKE ME BACK TO THE DAY THIS HAPPENED AND IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, JUST DESCRIBING TO US WHAT THOSE MOMENTS WERE LIKE AS YOU REALIZED THAT A SHOOTER HAD ENTERED INTO THE SCHOOL.

WELL, THAT MORNING I WAS IN A MEETING WITH THE ADMINISTRATIVE TEAM AND WE WERE ALERTED BY ONE OF OUR SAFETY OFFICERS THAT THERE WAS AN INTRUDER IN THE BUILDING AND AT THAT MOMENT, I WAS STANDING IN THE HALLWAY WITH ANOTHER TEAM MEMBER AND BEFORE I COULD ASK ANY MORE QUESTIONS OR ASSESS, THE SHOOTER MADE HIS WAY INTO THE HALLWAY AND FIRED A SHOT AT US WHERE WE WERE STANDING SO THE ONLY THING THAT I COULD DO AT THAT MOMENT WAS TRY TO RUN FOR COVER, WHICH IS WHAT I DID IN ONE OF OUR STAFF LOUNGES AND INTO A BATHROOM INSIDE THE LOUNGE AND FOR THE NEXT FIVE TO SEVEN MINUTES, ALL YOU COULD HEAR IS GUNFIRE, RANDOM GUNFIRE IN THE BUILDING BUT I HAVE TO ALSO MAKE IT KNOWN THAT IT WAS ONLY A MINUTE OR TWO BEFORE WE HEARD, YOU KNOW, POLICE AND OUR SCHOOL SAFETY -- PUBLIC SCHOOL SAFETY AND SECURITY OFFICERS IN THE BUILDING TO TRY TO NEUTRALIZE THE SITUATION.

THAT IS A VERY DIFFERENT RESPONSE THAN WE'VE BEEN SEEING IN UVALDE.

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS A CORRECT RESPONSE HOW OFFICERS ARE TRAINED TO IMMEDIATELY GO IN AND NEUTRALIZE THE SHOOTER.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOUR THOUGHTS IF YOU COULD SIT DOWN WITH LEGISLATURES AND TALK TO THEM, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ARE SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS TO AN ISSUE THAT IS A UNIQUELY AMERICAN TRAGEDY, ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING.

MY THOUGHTS ON THAT IS THESE HIGH POWERED GUNS THAT SEEM TO SO EASILY FIND THEIR WAY INTO SO MANY PEOPLE'S HANDS, I BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING DONE TO REGULATE THAT.

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS YOUNG MAN IS ABLE TO ACQUIRE THIS WEAPON, WHICH I BELIEVE IS A GROWING PROBLEM WITH THESE MASS SHOOTING INCIDENTS, THESE HIGH POWERED RIFLES.

THEY JUST DO SO MUCH DAMAGE.

LASTLY, I THINK YOU KNEW AT LEAST ONE OF THE VICTIMS THAT DIED, ALEXANDRIA BELL WAS 16 YEARS OLD, ABOUT TO TURN 16 MARKING HER BIRTHDAY AND THERE WAS A 61-YEAR-OLD TEACHER.

SHE TAUGHT HEALTH AND PHYSICAL EDUCATION.

CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT JEAN?

WELL, SHE WAS A P.E. TEACHER AS WELL AS HEALTH TEACHER.

SHE'S BEEN IN THAT BUILDING TEACHING I BELIEVE AS LONG AS I'VE BEEN.

I'VE BEEN THERE 12 OR 13 YEARS AND SHE WAS THERE WHEN I GOT TO THE SCHOOL.

WONDERFUL PERSON, WONDERFUL SOUL.

SHE WAS GENUINE.

SHE WAS THERE FOR THE STUDENTS.

SHE DROVE SIGNIFICANTLY FARTHER THAN WE DO EVERY DAY TO COME DOWN TO THE SCHOOL AND TEACH AND IT IS A TRAGIC LOSS FOR ALL OF US FOR THIS TO HAPPEN TO HER.

CAN YOU GIVE ME A SENSE HOW THE STUDENTS ARE DOING AND HOW YOU ARE DOING AS A PERSON THAT IS GOING TO HAVE TO RETURN TO THE SCHOOL AT SOME POINT.

I MEAN, HOW ARE THEY DEALING WITH THIS TRAMA?

WELL, I CANNOT SPEAK FOR ALL OF THE STUDENTS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT SEEN MANY OF THEM SINCE THIS HAPPENED.

I CAN REALLY ASSESS FROM MY STUDENT'S DISPOSSESSION BECAUSE HE'S HOME WITH ME.

HE'S DOING WELL BUT I BELIEVE HIS ISSUES THAT HE'S HAVING IS THE FACT THAT HE SAW HIS TEACHER GET SHOT AND WHILE IN THE PROCESS, HE GOT SHOT.

SO CONSIDERING WHAT'S HAPPENED, HE'S DOING WELL BUT IT WILL BE A PROCESS TO TRANSITION.

I THINK IT'S SOMETHING HE'LL NEVER FORGET BUT IT'S MY HOPE AND PRAYER ALONG WITH ALL OF US THAT WE'RE ABLE TO DEAL AND COPE WITH IT AND GET A POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE FROM IT AND LEARN FROM IT SO THAT WE CAN MOVE FORWARD.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE TO -- THERE IS AN INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE THAT WILL BE WATCHING THAT ARE WONDERING WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING IN AMERICA?

WHAT IS IT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE YOU AS AN ADMINISTRATOR AND THE TEACHERS AND YOUR SON AS A STUDENT HAS TO WORRY ABOUT BEING SHOT IN SCHOOL?

WELL, SOCIETY IS CHANGING.

I THINK MOST OF US CAN ATTEST TO THE FACT THAT SOCIETY IS CHANGING.

THERE USED TO BE A TIME WHEN PLACES THAT WE WENT WERE CONSIDERED SAFE, THE STORE, THE MALL, CHURCH AND OF COURSE, EVEN SCHOOL.

I JUST BELIEVE IT'S BECAUSE OF OUR CHANGING SOCIETY THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS.

THE BEST THING TO DO IS CHANGE WHAT SOCIETY AND MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS THAT ARE NECESSARY SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND ELIMINATE THIS HAPPENING.

IN MY SCHOOL, MY SITUATION, WE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT THAT DAY AND I BELIEVE THAT'S WHY EVEN THOUGH WE LOST TWO PEOPLE, WE COULD HAVE LOST SO MANY MORE PEOPLE AND I HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT AND KUDOS TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS SAFETY AND SECURITY AND ST.

LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT AND I HAVE TO CERTAINLY MENTION SERGEANT WILL CLINTON WHO HELPED ME GET MY SON OUT OF THE BUILDING AND GOT HIM TO FIRST RESPONDERS, WENT WITH HIM TO THE HOSPITAL IN THE AMBULANCE.

EVERYTHING THE DONE RIGHT THAT DAY BY OUR SCHOOL COMMUNITY INSIDE AND OUT.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR STORY.

I KNOW IT TOUGH TO GO BACK THROUGH IT IN YOUR HEAD AND I KNOW IT TOUGH BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CHILD AT HOME WHO NEEDS YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION BUT THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US HERE AND EXPLAINING THE SITUATION SO ELOQUENTLY.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

NOW TO ANOTHER ISSUE DIVIDING AMERICA, ABORTION.

IT'S ONE OF THE KEY SUBJECTS MOTIVATING VOTERS IN THE UPCOMING MIDTERMS ACCORDING TO A SURVEY BY THE KAISER FAMILY FOUNDATION.

BACK IN JUNE, THE LANDMARK U.S.

SUPREME COURT DOBBS DECISION E -- ERADICATED THE RIGHT TO THE CONSTITUTION AND THE CONTINUING FOR YEARS.

KIMBERLY IS AN AWARD WINNING LEGAL SCHOLAR AND THE DEAN OF RUTGERS LAW SCHOOL AND TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE DECISIONS WIDE REACHING IMPACT.

THANK YOU, SARAH.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

ABSOLUTELY.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I JUST WANTED TO START WITH THE DOBBS DECISION THAT HAS BASICALLY UP ENDED 50 YEARS OF THE LAW ON REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEMED SHOCKED BY THIS AND I WANTED TO ASK IF YOU WERE.

YEAH, I WASN'T SHOCKED IN LARGE PART BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT WAS GIVING US HINTS THIS IS THE DIRECTION THEY WERE GOING IN.

IF YOU RECALL, IT FEELS LIKE A LONG TIME AGO BUT TEXAS SB 8 HAD GONE INTO EFFECT AND THE SUPREME COURT LET IT SIT, IT WAS AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND THEY REFUSED TO KEEP IT BEING ENFORCED AND ONCE THAT HAPPENED, IT WAS CLEAR THE DIRECTION WE WERE MOVING IN WOULDN'T BE A GRADUAL ROLLBACK OF ROW AND CASEY BUT THEY WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO OVERRULE IT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFECTS OF THIS ARE SO FAR?

THE OTHER THING I THINK A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE SHOCKED BY IS THE SPEED AT WHICH SO MANY STATES HAVE MOVED TO ROLLBACK ABORTION RIGHTS IN A VERY EXPANSIVE WAY TO BASICALLY OUT LAW ABORTION ALL TOGETHER AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, HOW MANY STATES WOULD YOU SAY THAT IS?

AT LEAST A DOZEN.

13, 14 AT THIS POINT.

THERE IS SO MUCH LITIGATION IT'S HARD TO KNOW FROM DAY TO DAY WHAT THE RULES ARE IN ANY GIVEN JURISDICTION WHICH IS PART OF THE CHAOS PEOPLE ARE LIVING WITH.

I WOULD SAY THAT IF PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED HOW QUICKLY STATES MOVED, THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY NOT PAYING ATTENTION FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

STATES HAVE BEEN PASSING VARIOUS TYPES OF LEGISLATION TO MAKE IT HARDER FOR WOMEN AND PREGNANT PEOPLE TO ACCESS ABORTION FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PIECES OF LEGISLATION EVERY YEAR AND WE HAD STATES SIMPLY PREPARE FOR ROE TO FALL AND HAD TRIGGER LAWS IN PLACE THAT SAID AS SOON AS ROE IS NO LONGER GOOD LAW, ABORTION IS BANNED IN OUR JURISDICTION.

FOR THOSE OF US THAT DO THIS WORK AND PAYING ATTENTION, THERE IS NOTHING SHOCKING ABOUT HOW QUICKLY CLINICS CLOSED AND HOW SURE THAT PEOPLE COULDN'T ACCESS ABORTION IN THEIR BORDERS.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE IMPACT SO FAR?

DEFR STATING.

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU BAN ABORTION YOU ARE TARGETING THE POOR WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR, WOMEN IN RURAL AREAS, UNDOCUMENTED, INCARCERATED.

CLINIC ANYBODY'S CLOSED, MISSISSIPPI WHERE DOBBS ORIGINATED FROM, THEIR LAST ABORTION CLINIC CLOSED AND REMEMBER, THOSE CLINICS DIDN'T NECESSARY ONLY PROVIDE ABORTION SERVICES.

THEY PROVIDED CONTRACEPTION AND IN SOME CASES GENDER CARE FOR TRANS PEOPLE AND THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT LOSS.

THE COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES AND THESE A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IS NOT THAT YOU'RE GOING INTO AN ABORTION BUT YOU'RE HAVING A MISCARRIAGE AND YOUR DOCTOR ISN'T ABLE TO PROVIDE YOU WITH THE CARE YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED DURING THAT MISCARRIAGE.

PEOPLE GOING TO GET MEDICATIONS FOR THEIR CONDITIONS THAT HAPPEN TO BE MEDICATIONS THAT ARE ALSO USED FOR MEDICATION ABORTION AND HAVING PHARMACISTS SAY I REFUSE TO DISPENSE THIS MEDICATION TO YOU.

IT'S CHAOS AND CONFUSION FOR MONTHS TO COME AND YEARS TO COME.

THERE IS FEELING THAT THIS ISSUE HAS TO COME TO A HEAD AND GO BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT AND AT SOME POINT IT HAS TO BE RESOLVED.

YOU SAY THAT'S JUST NOT REALISTIC.

WHY NOT?

IT'S NOT AT ALL.

IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE SORTED OUT IN TERMS OF THE IMPACT OF THE DECISION.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THERE WERE CERTAIN RULES THAT WERE IN PLACE BECAUSE OF ROE VERSUS WADE AND BECAUSE OF CASEY.

FOR INSTANCE, YOU COULDN'T HAVE AN ABORTION STATUTE THAT DIDN'T HAVE AN EXCEPTION FOR LIFE AND HEALTH OF THE PREGNANT PERSON.

YOU COULDN'T HAVE A PARENTAL NOTIFICATION LAW WITHOUT ALSO HAVING A JUDICIAL BY PASS.

YOU COULDN'T REQUIRE A MARRIED WOMAN TO NOTIFY OR GET CONSENT FROM HER HUSBAND BEFORE SHE HAD APP ABORTION.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT IF ANY OF THAT CONTINUES TO STILL BE ON THE TABLE.

SO THOSE ARE ISSUE THE THAT WILL CERTAINLY HAVE TO BE LITIGATED.

TEXAS SAYS YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ABORTION.

SOMEBODY TRAVELS TO NEW JERSEY AND GETS AN ABORTION AND COMES HOME AND TEXAS TRIES TO ARREST THEM.

THOSE ARE ISSUES THAT HAVE TO BE SORTED OUT AND PART OF WHAT WAS CONCERNING ABOUT THE OPINION IS NOT JUST ABORTION RIGHTS BUT OTHER RIGHTS LIKE MARRIAGE EQUALITY OR ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION OR ALL SORTS OF OTHER THINGS.

OR SOMETHING LIKE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN VITRO FERTILIZATION.

SOME 80,000 BABIES WERE BORN WITH IVF IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE IN 2020.

AND HOW DOES THIS RULING, HOW DOES THE CHAOS AS YOU CALL IT, THE AMBIGUITY AIF HE CAN -- AFFECT SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

ANOTHER ASPECT OF ROE AND CASEY SAYING THE SUPREME COURT SAID THE FETUS IS NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL PERSON.

IN OTHER WORDS, A FETUS WAS NOT ON PAR WITH A BORN HUMAN BEING AND SO WE COULD HAVE DIFFERENT STANDARDS FOR HOW WE UNDERSTOOD WHAT A FETUS WAS.

AND THAT IS HOW WE UNDERSTOOD WHAT AN EMBRYO WAS.

ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WENT OUT OF THE DOOR IS WHAT ARE THE LIMITS ON A STATE'S INTEREST IN POTENTIAL LIFE?

AND THAT'S THE LANGUAGE THE SUPREME COURT USES IN THE CONTEXT POTENTIAL LIFE AND SO IF THE UNIVERSE IN WHICH STATES CAN DECIDE WHAT POTENTIAL LIFE IS EXPANDED, THEN A STATE COULD OBVIOUSLY DECIDE AN EMBRYO IS POTENTIAL LIFE AND AN EMBRYO IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A 5-YEAR-OLD AND IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO USE YOUR EMBRYOS THE SAME WAY YOU ABANDON A 5-YEAR-OLD, THE STATE WILL TAKE CUSTODY AND FIND SOMEBODY ELSE TO BECOME PARENTS TO THE EMBRYO.

WHICH SOUNDS SORT OF FANCIFUL AND THAT COULD NEVER HAPPEN BUT THERE IS A WHOLE INDUSTRY OF EMBRYO ADOPTION IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO IT'S NOT SUCH A FARFETCHED IDEA TO IMAGINE A STATE GOING TO THOSE LENGTHS TO SHOW INTEREST IN POTENTIAL LIFE.

ONE OF THE COMPLICATED QUESTIONS AROUND ABORTION RIGHTS AND ACCESS TO ABORTION IS THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE WOMAN IS PUNISHED FOR HAVING AN ABORTION OR SEEKING AN ABORTION OR THE PROVIDER IS, OKAY?

MANY PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER THAT DURING -- WHEN THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WAS RUNNING AND HE HAD A PREVIOUS LIFE SAYING HE WAS PRO-CHOICE BUT WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, CAST HIS LOT IN WITH THOSE WHO OPPOSE ABORTION RIGHTS, HE WAS ASKED THIS QUESTION AND SAID SHOULD THE WOMAN BE PUNISHED?

HE SAID OF COURSE THE WOMAN HAS TO BE PUNISHED.

AS A POLITICAL MATTER, THIS HAS NOT BEEN THE VIEW OF THE MAIN STREAM ANTI ABORTION MOVEMENT BUT I WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT WOULD CHANGE IN A POST ROE AMERICA.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGE.

I MEAN, SO, YOU KNOW, THE FOLKS ON THE ANTI CHOICE SIDE HAVE OFTEN SORT OF TAKEN THIS POSITION THAT WOMEN ARE VICTIMS.

THEY'RE VICTIMS OF THE ABORTION INDUSTRY OR HUSBANDS FORCING THEM TO HAVE ABORTIONS AND SO YES, STATUTES TYPICALLY PUNISH PEOPLE THAT PROVIDE ABORTIONS AND DON'T PUNISH THE PEOPLE WHO GET ABORTIONS BUT THE WORLD IS REALLY DIFFERENT.

THE SCIENCE IS REALLY DIFFERENT NOW THAN IT WAS PRIOR TO ROE AND SO NOW ABOUT 50% OF ABORTIONS THAT TAKE PLACE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE MEDICATION ABORTIONS.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOTHING INVASIVE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO AN OFFICE AND HAVE ANY SORT OF SURGERY.

YOU GET A PRESCRIPTION.

YOU GO TO THE PHARMACIST, THEY GIVE YOU PILLS AND YOU SELF-MANAGE THE ABORTION AT HOME AND YOU CAN ORDER THOSE PILLS 0 THE INTERNET.

YOU CAN GET GOOD INFORMATION HOW TO SAFELY USE THE PILLS WITHOUT EVER SEEING A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT I THINK A LOT OF STATES WILL FIND THEY CAN'T QUITE SHUT DOWN ABORTION IN THE WAY THEY WANTED TO AND SO THAT'S WHY WE HEAR STATES TALKING ABOUT WANTING TO BAN CERTAIN MEDICATIONS WITHIN THEIR BORDERS WHICH IS AGAIN GOING TO SET UP LITIGATION.

YOU KNOW, STATES SAYING THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR BRINGING PILLS OVER STATE LINES OR MAILING PILLS OVER STATE LINES SO I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GO AFTER WOMEN THEMSELVES BECAUSE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAFELY SELF-MANAGE AN ABORTION EXISTS NOW IN A WAY FOLKS DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO PRIOR TO ROE.

THE IDEA THAT WOMEN WON'T GO AFTER WOMEN, YOU KNOW, THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN WILLING TO GO AFTER PARTICULARLY POOR WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR FOR INCOMPLETE MISCARRIAGES OR THE SUSPICION OF SOMEBODY TRYING TO SELF-MANAGE AN ABORTION SO WE KNOW WE'RE CAPABLE OF DOING THAT AND WE'LL SEE MORE OF THAT IN THE YEARS AND MONTHS TO COME.

I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE KNEW UNTIL A COUPLE -- UNLESS THEY WERE LIVING IT JUST HOW DIRE THE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES IN THE UNITED STATES ARE.

YEAH.

I DON'T THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS THE U.S. HAS SOME OF THE WORST MATERNAL MORTALITY STATISTICS AMONG DEVELOPED NATIONS AND THE NUMBERS ARE PARTICULARLY DIRE FOR BLACK WOMEN.

FOUR TO FIVE TIMES THE RATE OF MATERNAL DEATH FOR BLACK WOMEN AND YOU HAVE HIGH PROFILE FIGURES LIKE SERENA WILLIAMS NEARLY DYING FROM CHILDBIRTH AND PEOPLE ARE LIKE WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

SO LET ME ASK YOU, WHAT IS GOING ON SINCE I ASSUME MATERNAL MORTALITY IS PART OF YOUR WORK, YOUR VISION OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

WHY IS THAT?

WHY IS THAT?

YEAH, I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MOST DIFFICULT TALKING ABOUT MATERNAL MORTALITY IS EXPERTS ESTIMATE HALF OF THE DEATHS COULD BE AVOIDED, RIGHT?

400 PLUS WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULDN'T BE DYING IN CHILDBIRTH EVERY YEAR IF WE'RE MAKING SURE PEOPLE HAD ACCESS TO THE RIGHT KIND OF HEALTH CARE, IF WE MAKE SURE PHYSICIANS ARE TRAINED PROPERLY TO DEAL WITH PATIENTS AND MAKING SURE THAT PREGNANT PEOPLE HAD ACCESS TO GOOD NUTRITION AND OTHER SORTS OF THINGS SO FOR ME, IT'S THE HYPOCRISY OF THE MOMENT TO BE SOMEBODY WHO PROCLAIMS THAT YOU ARE PRO-LIFE AND YOU WANT TO SAVE FETUSES AND WANT TO SAVE UNBORN BABIES IN A COUNTRY THAT AS YOU SAID HAS THE HIGHEST MORTALITY RATE OF ANY DEVELOPED COUNTRY AND BLACK WOMEN IN PARTICULAR ARE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LIKELY TO DIE DURING CHILDBIRTH OR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAN ARE WHITE WOMEN SO ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HOPE TO SEE IN STATES THAT ARE RESTRICTING ABORTION IS THAT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE ENHANCING THINGS LIKE THEIR SOCIAL SAFETY NET OR THEY ARE PROVIDING MORE MONEY FOR PRENATAL CARE OR MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE HOUSED IN THEIR STATES AND YET, THAT'S EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

THE STATES WITH THE MOST RESTRICTIVE ABORTION LAWS ALSO ARE THE STATES THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST RATES OF MATERNAL MORTALITY, THE HIGHEST RATES OF INFANT MORTALITY AND THAT HAVE THE LOWEST RATES OF ACTUALLY PROVIDING A SOCIAL SAFETY NET FOR CITIZENS.

SO IN THE END, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE INEVITABLY GOING TO SEE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF DOBBS IS MORE DEAD WOMEN AND MORE DEAD BABIES.

DO YOU FEEL ABORTION RIGHTS BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCE WE'RE IN?

I KNOW THE LATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG FIELD AND EXPRESSED SHE FELT THAT ROE WAS DECIDED WRONGLY ON THE LEGAL BASIS OF IT SHE THOUGHT WAS FLAWED ON THE RIGHT WHICH WAS NOT ARTICULATED AND FLAWED REASONING AND ALSO THERE ARE THOSE WHO FULLY SUBSEQUENTLY ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTERS HAVE NOT ORGANIZED THEMSELVES ASFECTIVELY AS THEIR OPPONENTS HAVE AND HAVE NOT ARTICULATED A RATIONAL FOR AN EXPANSIVE VIEW OF ABORTION RIGHTS THAT IS ONE THAT PEOPLE COULD BUY INTO.

DO YOU THINK ANY OF THOSE ARGUMENTS HAVE MERIT?

I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE MERIT TO ALL OF IT.

JUSTICE GINSBURG, HER POSITION BASICALLY AS YOU SAID WAS THAT THE RIGHT TO ABORTION AND RIGHT TO PRIVACY, THIS RIGHT THAT IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED IN THE CONSTITUTION HAD THAT RIGHT SITTING ON A VERY PRECARIOUS FOUNDATION WHEREAS IF WE HAD FOCUSED ON SEX EQUALITY AND THE IDEA THAT HAVING A RIGHT TO ABORTION IS CRITICAL FOR WOMEN TO BE EQUAL IN THIS SOCIETY THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN US IN A DIFFERENT AND BETTER DIRECTION.

I CAN AT THIS SUPREME COURT AND THINK IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT, WE WOULD HAVE ENDED UP IN THE SAME PLACE, I'M NOT SURE IT REALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE GIVEN WHERE WE ARE IN TERMS OF THE SUPREME COURT AND FRANKLY, THE RAW POLITICS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN OUR SUPREME COURT RIGHT NOW.

IN TERMS OF THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT, I DO THINK -- I DON'T KNOW IF RESTING ON MORALS BUT PEOPLE IN THIS WORK HAVE SEEN THE WRITING ON THE WALL, RIGHT, AND HAVE WATCHED OVER THE YEARS AS STATES MOVE CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE LINE OF BANNING ABORTION AND THE FOLKS ON THE RIGHT WERE INCREDIBLY WELL ORGANIZED.

THIS WAS A 50-YEAR CAMPAIGN WITH A LOT OF THOUGHT AND LOATH OF MONEY AND LOTS OF PATIENCE.

I THINK PART OF WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITH FOLKS ON THE LEFT, ONE, IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND THIS SORT OF GOES BACK TO WHAT I WAS SAYING EARLIER ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE THAT THE ISSUES ARE NOT JUST ABOUT ABORTION, RIGHT?

NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO VOTER SUPPRESSION IS PART OF WHAT GOT US HERE, NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO COMMUNITIES OF COLOR IS PART OF WHAT GOT US HERE.

THERE IS DEFINITELY WORK TO BE DONE BUT I REALLY THINK BECAUSE THIS IS AN ISSUE WHERE YOU DO HAVE VERY STRONG POLLS ON EACH END THAT WILL ALWAYS BE FIGHTING ABOUT IT IN SOMEWAY BUT THAT THERE THERE SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE WHO AGAIN RECOGNIZE THE COMPLEXITY OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THEIR DRUTHERS, IF WE WERE JUST HAVING PEOPLE VOTE, RIGHT, A POPULAR VOTE, THAT WHAT WE WOULD FIND IS MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY ABORTION IS LEGAL AND THERE SHOULD BE LIMITS ON ACCESS, THAT THERE SHOULD PROBABLY BE GESTATIONAL LIMITS WHEN PEOPLE CAN TERMINATE A PREGNANCY BUT THAT FOUNDATIONALLY THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE A PREGNANCY IS ONE THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> AND FINALLY, WE END THE SHOW WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREATEST LIVING NOVELISTS.

NOBLE PRIZE WINNER MARIO VARGAS IS THE LAST REMAINING WRITER FROM THE LATIN AMERICAN BOOM FROM THE '60s AND 70s AND REVERED FOR EXPLORATION OF AUTHORITARIANISM AND POWER.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BOOKS LIKE 'THE TIME OF THE HERO, CONVERSATION IN THE CATHEDRAL, CATHEDRAL,' AND 'THE FEAST OF THE GOAT.'

HE JOINED CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR ABOUT HIS RECENT ATTACK ON SALMAN RUSHDIE AND WHY HE'S BACKING BOLSONARO IN THE ELECTION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU, I AM VERY HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU.

I'M HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK FOR CHILDREN.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE A CHILDREN'S BOOK?

THIS IS, I THINK, MY FIRST CHILDREN'S BOOK, THE FIRST TIME THAT I WRITE FOR CHILDREN, I THOUGHT IT WAS A VERY GOOD STORY IN A WAY WITH THE CHARACTERS WHO ARE VERY YOUNG AND THEY ARE DISCOVERING LOVE.

MY IMPRESSION IS IT WAS A GOOD STORY.

IT IS.

IT'S A VERY SWEET STORY ABOUT A YOUNG BOY WHO WANTS TO KISS THE CHEEK OF A YOUNG GIRL IN CLASS AND SHE SAYS YES IF YOU BRING ME THE MOON AND HE --

EXACTLY.

YES.

SO IT'S VERY ROMANTIC AND LOVELY.

I JUST DO FIND IT FASCINATING THAT YOU WERE KIND OF A MODERN DAY WRITING LOVE LETTERS IF R YOUR STUDENT COLLEAGUES.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

IT WAS A WAY OF USING LITERATURE TO SEDUCE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW?

I HAD THIS IMPRESSION MY LETTERS WERE ABLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BECAME FRIENDS OF MINE.

IT WAS A WAY TO GET ACQUAINTED WITH THE WORDS, WITH THE LANGUAGE, WITH THE SPANISH PROBABLY IT WAS JUST A RADICAL EXERCISE, YOU KNOW.

I UNDERSTAND.

BE IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE THROUGH LANGUAGE.

AND DEVELOPED YOUR LOVE AND USE OF LANGUAGE.

YOUR OTHER WORKS, MOST OF WHAT YOU'RE WELL-KNOWN FOR IS VERY GRITTY AND HYPER REALISTIC.

WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO YOU TO BE THE LAST SURVIVING MEMBER OF, YOU KNOW, YOUR COLLEAGUES IN LATIN AMERICA WHETHER GABRIELLE GARCIA MARQUEZ OR CARLOS FUENTEZ.

THE LATIN AMERICA I WAS BORN IN PERU, WE WERE EXTREMELY ISOLATED I THINK MY CONTRIBUTION WAS TO WRITE ABOUT PERU.

SO PERU WAS NOT VERY WELL-KNOWN BY THE REST OF LATIN AMERICA AND SO I WROTE SOME BOOKS ABOUT THE PER PERU EXPERIENCE TO DISCOVER IF IT WAS SIMILAR TO ALL THE LAT P AMERICAN COUNTRIES OR IF IT WAS DIFFERENT AND I REMEMBER MY FIRST NOVEL WHO WAS BORN IN MA ROUE WAS ABOUT MILITARY SCHOOL.

IN ENGLISH.

THE TITLE OF THE INNOVATE IS 'TIME OF THE HERO' AS YOU SAY YOUR MILITARY SCHOOL --

EXACTLY.

YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

PUBLISHED IN AMERICA.

EXACTLY.

BURNED 1,000 COPIES OF IT.

THEY WEREN'T TOO HAPPY.

WELL, I WAS IN EUROPE, YOU KNOW, AND SO I DISCOVER THAT SOME COPIES OF THE BOOK HAD BEEN BURNED AT THE SCHOOL AND THIS WAS -- BUT THE BOOK WAS NOT FORBIDDEN.

AT THAT TIME WHAT WE HAD A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP BUT THE BOOK WAS NOT FORBIDDEN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A GREAT PUBLICITY FOR THE BOOK THAT SO MANY COPIES WERE BURNED IN THIS SCHOOL.

IT WAS GREAT PUBLICITY.

THAT'S ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE WAVE OF BOOK BURNING AND CANCEL CULTURE, YOU KNOW, CANCELLING PEOPLE FOR WORDS AND THOUGHTS, YOU JUST SAW WHAT HAPPENED TO PRESUMABLY A COLLEAGUE OF YOURS, SALMAN RUSHDIE ATTACKED IN NEW YORK BY A FUNDAMENTALEST.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU REALIZED HE HAD BEEN ATTACKED FOR THE WORDS THAT HE HAD WRITTEN IN A NOVEL?

I WAS ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS, YOU KNOW.

I KNOW HIM.

I WAS IN TOUCH WITH HIM WHEN I LIVE IN LONDON.

WE WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S PROBABLY SOMETHING A FANATIC DID, YOU KNOW.

YES.

I HOPE VERY MUCH HE WILL RECOVER.

CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?

. YOU ARE SUPPORTING BOLS NARROW -- BOLSONARO IN BRAZIL AND 'THE FEAST OF THE GOAT, CONVERSATIONS IN THE CATHEDRAL.'

I'M CONFUSED AS TO WHY YOU SUPPORT SOMEBODY LIKE BOLSONARO BECAUSE IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO YOUR ATTITUDE AND YOUR NOVELS.

I AGREE.

BOLSONARO ISN'T A DEMOCRATIC LEADER.

HE HAS TOO MANY ENTHUSIASTIC WITH THE MILITARY LINKED WITH POWER.

I NEED TO ASK YOU WHY DO YOU SUPPORT BOLSONARO.

HE'S AN ANTI DEMOCRAT AND SUPPORTS AUTHORITARIANISM.

WHY ARE YOU SUPPORTING HIM IN THIS ELECTION?

BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE LOULA.

THAT'S THE REASON WHY I'M SUPPORTING BOLSONARO BUT BOLSONARO IS NOT VERY MUCH A DEMOCRAT.

HE IS A VERY RADICAL IN FAVOR OF THE MILITARY.

HE WANTS TO BE MILITARY TO INTER GREAT BOLSONARO.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NEXT IN YOUR PROFESSIONAL WORK?

I HAVE THE LAST TWO YEARS I HAVE WRITTEN A NOVEL ABOUT PER VIEW MUSIC.

POPULAR MUSIC.

PERU HAS MATCH COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA ARE VERY RICH FOLK LURE AND I HAVE WRITTEN FOR THE FIRST TIME A BOOK ABOUT PER VIEW MUSIC AND THIS IS A CHARACTER WHO THINK THAT MUSIC CAN OVERCOME THE DIFFERENCES AMONG PERU PEOPLE THAT ARE DIFFERENT IN SOCIAL TERMS AND THAT MUSIC CAN UNIFY THE COUNTRY AND THE SOCIETY IN PERU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY' ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.