January 12, 2023

> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

CONFRONTING DISINFORMATION AMID UNSPEAKABLE GRIEF.

DR. CELINE GOUNDER SPEAKS OUT AFTER COVID ANTI-VAXXERS POUNCED ON HER HUSBAND'S SUDDEN DEATH WHILE COVERING THE WORLD CUP.

THEN, AS CHINA RELAXES COVID RESTRICTIONS, CROWDING AT CREMATORIUMS AND FUNERAL HOMES.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT FROM BEIJING.

ALSO AHEAD, WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO THE U.S. SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION, PETE BUTTIGIEG, ABOUT THE WIDENING IMPACT OF THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW.

PLUS --

THE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACED AS A COUNTRY THROUGHOUT THE 20th CENTURY ARE STILL WITH US.

AS THE UNITED STATES WRESTLED WITH CHALLENGES TO ITS OWN DEMOCRACY, DOES THAT WEAKEN ITS GLOBAL LEADERSHIP?

I ASK CONSERVATIVE SCHOLAR ROBERT KAGAN, WHO TRACKS THE COUNTRY'S RISE AS A SUPERPOIR IN HIS NEW BOOK 'THE GHOST AT THE FEAST.'

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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WHEN TOP SOCCER JOURNALIST GRANT WAHL LEFT FOR QATAR TO COVER THE WORLD CUP IN NOVEMBER, HIS WIFE, DR. CELINE GOUNDER, NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD BE THE VERY LAST TIME SHE WOULD SEE HIM.

THE 49-YEAR-OLD AMERICAN REPORTER DIED SUDDENLY OF AN AORTIC ANEURYSM AFTER COLLAPSING IN THE PRESS BOX AT THE END OF A MATCH.

HIS DEATH SHOCKED THE SPORTS WORLD, WHO REMEMBERED HIM AS A CHEERLEADER FOR THE BEAUTIFUL GAME IN NORTH AMERICA, A FEARLESS REPORTER, AND A STAUNCH ADVOCATE OF EQUALITY IN SPORTS.

TO ADD TO THE TRAGEDY, MANY ON SOCIAL MEDIA FALSELY BLAMED GRANT'S DEATH ON COVID-19 VACCINES.

DR. GOUNDER, HIS WIDOW, IS AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST, AND SHE KNOWS HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO DEBUNK CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BUT WHEN THE SAME PLAYBOOK WAS USED TO BLAME DAMAR HAMLIN'S RECENT COLLAPSE DURING AN NFL GAME, SHE SAID THE DAM BROKE AND THAT PROMPTED HER TO WRITE A PUBLIC ESSAY TO TRY AND PUT AN END TO THE RUMORS AND REFOCUS ATTENTION ON GRANT'S LEGACY.

I SPOKE TO HER ABOUT HOW SHE'S MANAGING TO CHANNEL HER GRIEF INTO PURPOSE IN THE MOST SAD OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

CELINE, WE'RE TALKING ALMOST EXACTLY A MONTH SINCE GRANT DIED, AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU'RE DOING AND HOW, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THE COURAGE ACTUALLY TO COME OUT AND TALK IN THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO.

WELL, DECEMBER WAS REALLY A BLUR OF JUST TRYING TO SURVIVE, TRYING TO GET THINGS DONE, TRYING TO GET HIM BACK HOME, ORGANIZING THE MEMORIAL SERVICE THAT WE HAD WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

AND NOW HONESTLY I FEEL EXHAUSTED AND PRETTY NUMB, AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME FOR THE REALITY THAT HE'S GONE TO REALLY SINK IN.

AND YOU ARE IN A WAY, BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE SAID IN YOUR LATEST 'NEW YORK TIMES' OP-ED, YOU ARE IN A WAY TRYING TO CHANNEL THAT NUMBNESS INTO PURPOSE TO ANSWER SOME OF THE DANGEROUS PUBLIC STATEMENTS AND ONLINE PUSHBACK THAT ERUPTED OVER GRANT'S DEATH.

SO AFTER HE PASSED AWAY I KNEW THAT THERE WOULD BE RUMORS, CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT THE CAUSE OF HIS DEATH, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I MADE IT MY PRIORITY TO GET HIM BACK HIS REMAINS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, TO HAVE AN AUTOPSY PERFORMED HERE IN NEW YORK CITY BY SOME OF THE WORLD'S BEST AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THAT WAS ALSO JUST FOR MYSELF.

AND HONESTLY GETTING THAT AUTOPSY AND BETTER UNDERSTANDING WHAT HAPPENED DOES GIVE ME AT LEAST SMALL SOLACE, SOME PARTIAL SENSE OF CLOSURE.

AND I PUT THOSE PRELIMINARY FINDINGS OUT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND HAD HOPED THAT THAT WOULD PUT SOME OF THOSE QUESTIONS TO REST.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN DAMAR HAMLIN HAD HIS CARDIAC ARREST DURING A GAME ON THE FIELD THAT STIRRED UP A LOT OF THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND RUMORS ALL OVER AGAIN WITH PEOPLE ASKING WHY ARE YOUNG HEALTHY PEOPLE DYING OR ALMOST DYING, AND THEIR THEORY HAS BEEN THAT IT WAS COVID VACCINES.

AND TO BE VERY CLEAR, MY HUSBAND'S DEATH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH COVID VACCINATION.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS PICKED ON OR YOU WERE PICKED ON?

WHY?

BECAUSE YOU'RE AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST?

BECAUSE YOU ARE PROMINENT IN THE FIELD OF VACCINE?

IS THAT WHY?

I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

I THINK GRANT WAS A PUBLIC FIGURE.

ARGUABLY THE TOP SOCCER JOURNALIST IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO WAS VERY WELL KNOWN NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU HAD ANNOUNCEMENTS OF HIS DEATH IN NEWSPAPERS IN IRAN, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND SO I THINK THAT WAS PART OF IT.

I THINK MY OWN ROLE AS AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, EPIDEMIOLOGIST, FORMER ADVISER TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WAS PART OF THE STORY.

AND THEN I THINK SIMPLY THE FACT THAT GRANT WAS A YOUNG HEALTHY PERSON.

THIS IS A GUY WHO EXERCISED FIVE, SIX, SOMETIMES SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.

WHO REALLY HAD NO UNDERLYING RISK FACTORS.

HAD PEOPLE QUESTIONING HOW COULD THIS BE THAT SOMEBODY LIKE THAT WOULD BE DYING AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE?

CELINE, CAN WE GO BACK TO THAT MOMENT A MONTH AGO WHEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU STARTED TO GET ALL SORTS OF CALLS FROM QATAR, FROM DOHA, WHERE GRANT WAS COVERING THE WORLD CUP?

HOW DID NEWS OF HIS PASSING REACH YOU?

I WAS WRAPPING UP MY DAY.

IT WAS AT THE END OF THE DAY ON A FRIDAY AFTERNOON.

WRAPPING UP MY LAST ZOOM CALL OF THE DAY WITH A COLLEAGUE.

AND I STARTED TO SEE TEXT MESSAGES, PHONE CALLS, TWITTER DIRECT MESSAGES, WHATSAPP MESSAGES AND SO ON, POURING INTO MY CELL PHONE, WHICH I HAD SILENCED FOR THAT WORK CALL.

AND SO I WRAPPED THAT UP QUICKLY.

I FIGURED THERE WAS SOMETHING GOING ON, SOME EMERGENCY I KNEELEDED TO RESPOND TO.

AND IT WAS OUR FRIEND GABRIEL MARCATI, WHO'S A JOURNALIST FOR ESPN WHO WAS ALSO IN QATAR COVERING THE WORLD CUP, WHO WAS TRYING TO GET A HOLD OF ME.

GABRIEL IS SOMEBODY WE'VE KNOWN FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

HE WAS AT OUR WEDDING OVER 20 YEARS AGO AND SOMEBODY WHO'S QUITE CLOSE TO GRANT AND I.

AND I CALLED HIM BACK.

AND HE HAD THIS PANIC IN HIS VOICE.

HIS VOICE WAS TREMBLING, WHICH IMMEDIATELY HAD ME REALLY AFRAID.

AND HE TOLD ME THAT SOME OF THEIR COLLEAGUES HAD SEEN GRANT COLLAPSE AT STADIUM WHILE COVERING THE ARGENTINA-NETHERLANDS GAME, THAT BYSTANDERS HAD STARTED CPR, SO CHEST COMPRESSIONS, AND THAT GRANT HAD THEN BEEN TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL, THAT TWO OF THEIR COLLEAGUES WERE FOLLOWING BEHIND IN A CAR.

AND I ASKED GABRIEL DID HE HAVE A PULSE, DID GRANT HAVE A PULSE.

AND HE COULDN'T ANSWER.

AND MY STOMACH DROPPED BECAUSE THAT TO ME AS A PHYSICIAN WAS A REALLY BAD SIGN.

AND SOMEHOW YOU MANAGED FROM THE UNITED STATES TO GET THROUGH TO THE HOSPITAL WHERE GRANT WAS.

YOU GOT THROUGH TO THE DOCTORS THERE.

I DID.

IT WAS ABOUT AN HOUR, MAYBE ALMOST TWO HOURS LATER THAT I GOT HOLD OF EMERGENCY ROOM DOCTOR WHO BROKE THE NEWS THAT THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO GET A PULSE BACK DESPITE CONTINUING CPR AND THAT GRANT HAD DIED.

AND YOU'VE SUBSEQUENTLY SAID THAT NO AMOUNT OF CPR, THAT NO AMOUNT OF SHOCKS WOULD HAVE SAVED HIM, THAT THE AUTOPSY REVEALED THAT HE DIED OF AN AORTIC ANEURYSM.

I JUST WANT TO, BEFORE GOING INTO THAT, ASK YOU TO -- YOU KNOW, YOU KNEW GRANT EVER SINCE COLLEGE.

I THINK YOU WERE COLLEGE JUNIORS WHEN YOU MET.

YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT A PHENOMENAL PERSON HE WAS.

YOU'VE SAID ABOVE ALL HE EXPRESSED HIS VALUES THROUGH HIS WORK, HIS COMMITMENTS TO SEEKING THE TRUTH THROUGH REPORTING, SUPPORTING FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS, FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY, AND ALL SORTS OF WONDERFUL PERSONAL DETAILS ABOUT HOW HE LOVED TO COOK FOR YOU, HOW HE LOVED TO PARTY AS WELL, HOW HE LOVED FAMILY, HOW YOUR FAMILIES WERE SO, YOU KNOW, INTRICATELY WOVEN TOGETHER.

TALK TO ME ABOUT GRANT THE MAN THAT CAUSED HIS DEATH TO BE, YOU KNOW, SO, SO -- SUCH A SOURCE OF SORROW AROUND THE WORLD.

SO I WAS 18.

GRANT WAS 21 WHEN WE MET IN COLLEGE.

I WAS A JUNIOR.

HE WAS A SENIOR.

AND GRANT WAS JUST THIS VERY KIND, SORT OF GOOFY PERSON.

VERY EASY TO GET TO KNOW.

DIDN'T LOOK DOWN ON OTHER PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT WAS BORNE OUT IN THE WAY HE WAS A MENTOR TO SO MANY IN THE FIELD.

WHENEVER -- WHETHER IT WOULD BE AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENT, JUNIOR SPORTSWRITER, WHENEVER THEY WOULD REACH OUT FOR ADVICE ON THEIR CAREERS, WANTING TO HAVE COFFEE, GRANT WAS REALLY AVAILABLE AND OPEN TO THAT.

AND SOME PEOPLE -- AND I'VE EXPERIENCED THIS MYSELF LOOKING FOR MENTORSHIP OVER THE COURSE OF MY CAREER.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M JUST TOO BUSY, I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR YOU, YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH BASICALLY.

AND GRANT NEVER DID THAT TO ANYONE.

I THINK HE REALLY TOOK PRIDE IN PAYING IT FORWARD, HAVING HIMSELF BEEN MENTORED BY WONDERFUL PEOPLE.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU SAW WAS HOW HE HAD BEEN GENEROUS TO SO MANY PEOPLE THAT THE KARMA OF THAT COMING BACK AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH.

AND HONESTLY, IT IS EXTRAORDINARY WHAT HE DID WHEN HE WAS THERE COVERING BECAUSE YOU KNOW, HE WORE THE RAINBOW COLOR ON HIS CLOTHES EVERY SINGLE DAY ON HIS T-SHIRT.

HE WAS I THINK AT ONE POINT DETAINED WHEN THE QATARIS WERE GETTING VERY HEAVY-HANDED ABOUT THE IDEA OF PROTEST.

AND OBVIOUSLY HE'S ALSO THROUGHOUT WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT HIM CHAMPIONED -- YOU SAID SOCCER OBVIOUSLY, BUT WOMEN'S SOCCER, GIRLS' SOCCER, PARTICULARLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT COMES FROM SOME OF THE MENTORS HE HAD IN MIZ LIFE.

HIS MOM OF COURSE.

HIS MOTHER WAS A VERY STRONG FEMINIST.

AND LATER THE JOURNALIST GLORIA EMERSON, WHO WAS ONE OF THE FEW WAR CORRESPONDENTS IN VIETNAM, AND GRANT GOT TO KNOW HER WHILE WE WERE IN COLLEGE AT PRINCETON, SHE HAD TAUGHT A WRITING SEMINAR, AND THEY CAME TO BE VERY GOOD FRIENDS.

ON THE WEEKENDS GRANT WOULD BRING GLORIA A PACK OF -- OR A CARTON OF MARLBORO CIGARETTES AND JELLY DONUTS TO HAVE WITH HER COFFEE AND LATER DOWN THE LINE I WOULD JOIN THEM.

GLORIA IS ONE TOUGH LADY, AS YOU KNOW, HAVING BEEN FRIENDS WITH HER AS WELL.

YEAH.

BETWEEN HELEN, HIS MOTHER, AND GLORIA THEY REALLY TAUGHT HIM TO BE A FEMINIST AND NOT JUST AS APPLIES TO WOMEN BUT REALLY EQUALITY ACROSS THE BOARD.

AND SO YOU KNOW, FOR YOU AS A MARRIED COUPLE IT MUST HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM HIM AS WELL, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CRAZY TIME OF COVID AND HOW MUCH ANYBODY WAS PUSHED BACK ON, SUCH AS YOURSELF WHEN YOU TRIED TO TALK ABOUT RATIONAL ISSUES LIKE VACCINES, WHICH HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO ACTUALLY BE LIFE SAVERS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE DANGER OF THAT IS IN TERMS OF GLOBAL HEALTH?

DOES IT STILL EXIST IN THE WAY IT DID AT THE HEIGHT OF POLITICIZATION OF THE VIRUS?

I THINK UNFORTUNATELY VACCINES HAVE VERY MUCH BEEN POLITICIZED.

HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THE KAISER FAMILY FOUNDATION, WHERE I'M A -- ON STAFF AS A SENIOR FELLOW, THEY DO POLLING TO SUNDAYS AMERICAN ATTITUDES ABOUT THE VACCINES AS WELL AS OTHER HEALTH ISSUES.

AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT IN THE LAST TWO YEARS WHILE MOST PEOPLE ARE STILL SUPPORTIVE OF MANDATES THAT CHILDREN GET THE MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA VACCINE TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE'S BEEN A SIGNIFICANT DROP IN THAT SUPPORT OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

WE'VE SEEN POLIO RE-EMERGE IN NEW YORK STATE.

WE HAVE A BIG OUTBREAK OF MEASLES IN OHIO.

AND CONGRESS JUST REPEALED A COVID VACCINATION REQUIREMENT FOR THE U.S. MILITARY, WHICH REALLY DOES IMPACT MILITARY READINESS AND OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

AND SO I THINK UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE IN A MUCH WORSE PLACE WITH RESPECT TO ATTITUDES ABOUT VACCINES IN THE UNITED STATES THAN WE WERE PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC.

IT'S INCREDIBLE.

AND ALSO FOR ME IT'S INCREDIBLE TO READ THAT YOU HAVE HAD PERSONAL DEATH THREATS, RAPE THREATS.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY OFF THE SCALE.

AND I WONDER HOW YOU CHALLENGE IT.

YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT YOUR BEST WAY TO CHALLENGE TROLLS IS PAIRING FACTS WITH EMPATHY, THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DISEMPOWER THEM.

HAVE YOU TRIED THAT, AND HAS IT WORKED?

I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO IN ESSENCE WITH THAT 'NEW YORK TIMES' OP-ED.

YOU'LL NOTE I DID NOT NAME ANY OF THOSE PURVEYORS OF DISINFORMATION BY NAME.

I AM NOT ENGAGING IN PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST ANY OF THEM.

AND TO BE CLEAR, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE SKEPTICAL, SUSPICIOUS OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT'S RECOMMENDATIONS, IN PARTICULAR PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED FROM MARGINALIZATION, RACISM IN THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, AND SO I DO REALLY HAVE A LOT OF EMPATHY FOR PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE MONEY FROM THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS, I THINK THAT'S REALLY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK NOW AT COVID, LET'S JUST SAY IN THE UNITED STATES, PLUS ALL THOSE RESPIRATORY VIRUSES AND THE FLU, IS THERE ANOTHER STRAIN?

I'VE HEARD OF SOMETHING CALLED KRAKEN THAT'S COMING UP THROUGH THE U.S. QUITE WIDELY.

AND THEN OF COURSE WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CHINA SINCE THEY'VE JUST ALMOST IN ONE FELL SWOOP, YOU KNOW, REMOVED VERY, VERY DRACONIAN ZERO COVID POLICIES.

WELL, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CHINA IS REALLY A TRAGEDY.

I THINK WHAT WOULD HAVE MADE MORE SENSE IS SOMETHING IN BETWEEN, FRANKLY, WHAT THE U.S.

DID AND WHAT CHINA DID.

MAKING APPROPRIATE USE OF MASKING AND TESTING.

BUT CHINA DIDN'T VACCINATE ENOUGH.

AND SO NOW THAT YOU SEE THE LIFTING OF THE MITIGATION MEASURES IT'S REALLY RIPPING THROUGH THE POPULATION AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE'LL EVER GET AN ACCURATE COUNT OF THE DEATHS THAT ARE OCCURRING THERE, BUT MANY, MANY MILLIONS PROBABLY OF ELDERLY ARE DYING NOW.

IN THE UNITED STATES WE'RE SEEING THE RISE OF WHAT'S KNOWN AS THE XBB1.5 SUBVARIANT.

IT'S ANOTHER OMICRON SUBVARIANT.

THE GOOD NEWS IS IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DRIVING A BIG SPIKE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS.

IF YOU COMPARE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE U.S. WHERE THEY HAVE A LOT OF THIS NEW VARIANT AND OTHERS THAT DON'T, THEY HAVE SIMILAR RISES IN HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS.

AND SO THAT RISE IS PROBABLY MOSTLY JUST DUE TO PEOPLE HANGING OUT, TRAVELING OVER THE HOLIDAYS AND NOT THIS VARIANT.

AND WHAT ABOUT YOU?

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY EXHAUSTED, AS YOU'VE SAID.

YOU ARE SUBMERGING YOUR GRIEF BUT FEELING NUMB RIGHT NOW.

WHAT WILL YOU DO NEXT?

AND I ASSUME THAT FOR YOU PROTECTING AND EMPOWERING GRANT'S LEGACY IS SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT.

HOW WILL YOU DO THAT?

HOW DO YOU THINK IT -- IN WHAT FIELD DO YOU THINK YOU WILL PUT THOSE EFFORTS?

WELL, VERY SPECIFICALLY WITH RESPECT TO GRANT OUR FAMILY IS WORKING ON ESTABLISHING SOME SORT OF JOURNALISM AWARD OR SCHOLARSHIP.

WE'RE STILL RESEARCHING THE OPTIONS ON HOW TO ESTABLISH THAT.

SOME OF HIS FORMER COLLEAGUES AND HIS BOOK AGENT AND I ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO PUBLISH AN ANTHOLOGY OF HIS WRITINGS.

AND IN TERMS OF MY OWN WORK, I THINK GRANT AND I REALLY OVERLAPPED IN TERMS OF WANTING TO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER AND FIGHTING FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE.

AND WHILE HE DID SO IN THE FIELD OF SPORTS JOURNALISM AND I'M DOING SO IN PUBLIC HEALTH, THE VALUES UNDERLYING THAT WORK WERE VERY MUCH THE SAME.

AND A POWERHOUSE TOO.

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AN INCREDIBLY RESILIENT WOMAN.

AS WE DISCUSSED, CHINA IS EXPERIENCING A SIGNIFICANT COVID WAVE WITH THE END OF BEIJING'S ZERO COVID POLICY.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT HOSPITALS AND CREMATORIUMS ARE OVERWHELMED NOW, NOW THAT RESTRICTIONS HAVE BEEN DROPPED AND INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL HAS STARTED UP AGAIN.

CORRESPONDENT SELINA WANG REPORTS ON THE HUMAN TOLL OF THIS SNAP REOPENING.

Reporter: COVID LOCKDOWNS MAY BE OVER IN CHINA.

BUT FOR MANY THERE'S MISERY AT THE END OF ZERO COVID.

THE VIRUS IS OVERWHELMING HOSPITALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THE SICK STRUGGLE TO GET HELP.

PATIENTS CRAMMED INTO EVERY AVAILABLE SPACE.

EVERY HALLWAY AND CORNER OF THIS NORTHERN CHINESE HOSPITAL.

NOT EVERYONE SURVIVES THE STRUGGLE.

ROWS OF BODIES FILLED THIS FUNERAL HOME'S STORAGE ROOM IN LIAONING PROVINCE, THOUGH WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY DIED OF SKOVID.

IN JIANGSU FAMILIES IN MOURNING CLOTHES LINE THE GATE.

AND FAMILIES LINE UP NEXT TO COFFINS WAITING TO CREMATE THEIR LOVED ONES.

CHIEN A&E HAS ONLY OFFICIALLY REPORTED A FEW DOZEN COVID-19 DEATHS SINCE REOPENING.

BUT SATELLITE IMAGES CONFIRM THE DIFFERENT REALITY WE SEE ON THE GROUND.

THESE IMAGES TAKEN IN LATE DECEMBER AND ARLY JANUARY SHOW CROWDS AND LONG LINES OF CARS WAITING OUTSIDE A FUNERAL HOME IN SIX CHINESE CITIES.

THE IMAGES FROM THE OUTSKIRTS OF BEIJING SHOW THAT A BRAND NEW PARKING LOT WAS EVEN CONSTRUCTED.

HE WE VISITED THAT FUNERAL HOME.

ROWS OF CARS WERE ALREADY THERE.

I'M NOW STANDING IN THAT NEW PARKING LOT OF THIS BEIJING FUNERAL HOME.

THIS ENTIRE PARKING LOT AREA DID NOT EXIST A MONTH AGO, AND AS YOU CAN SEE THE ROADS ARE NOT PAVED.

ONE VAN PULLS IN, UNLOADS A BODY AND ANOTHER FOLLOWS.

A MAN TELLS ME HE WAITED HOURS FOR HIS BROTHER'S BODY TO BE CREMATED BUT THE WAIT IS NOTHING, HE SAYS, COMPARED TO THE CROWDS FROM A FEW WEEKS AGO.

EXPERTS SAY BEIJING'S COVID OUTBREAK HAS ALREADY PEAKED.

IN DECEMBER WE FILMED THESE BODY BAGS PILING UP IN METAL CRATES AT ANOTHER BEIJING CREMATORIUM DURING THE HEIGHT OF OMICRON'S SPREAD IN THE CITY.

THIS VIDEO CNN HAS OBTAINED WAS FILMED BY A MAN WHO SAID HIS FATHER'S BODY WAS LYING IN THIS OVERFLOWING BEIJING HOSPITAL MORGUE FOR DAYS.

HE SAID HIS FATHER WAITED HOURS FOR HOSPITAL BED SPACE.

BY THE TIME A BED OPENED UP, IT WAS TOO LATE.

CITIES ARE NOW SCRAMBLING TO SET UP FEVER CLINICS AND INCREASE ICU CAPACITY.

FOR WEEKS IT WAS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BUY COLD OR FEVER MEDICINE.

THEY WERE ALL SOLD OUT BECAUSE OF THE HUGE DEMAND.

DRUG COMPANIES LIKE THIS MAJOR PHARMACEUTICAL MANUFACTURER IN BEIJING, THEY ARE GOING INTO OVERDRIVE TO INCREASE SUPPLY AFTER THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF MEDICINE TO TREAT COVID-19 SYMPTOMS.

I ASKED THE VICE PRESIDENT IF THEY HAD RECEIVED ANY ADVANCE WARNING FROM THE GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO ABANDON ZERO COVID SO THEY COULD PREPARE TO RAMP UP PRODUCTION.

WELL, HE DIDN'T DIRECTLY ANSWER MY QUESTION, BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT NOW THEY ARE DOUBLING DOWN.

THE COMPANY TOLD US THEY SIMPLY FOLLOW GOVERNMENT POLICY.

THE DRUG SHORTAGE OVERFLOWING HOSPITALS AND CREMATORIUMS, THEY'RE IMAGES OF A COUNTRY UNPREPARED FOR THE SUDDEN END OF ZERO COVID.

SO MANY FAMILIES IN MOURNING ARE QUESTIONING WHAT THEIR THREE YEARS OF SACRIFICE DURING ZERO COVID WAS REALLY ALL FOR.

SELINA WANG REPORTING THERE.

NOW, IN THE YEAR SINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL WAS SIGNED INTO LAW THE U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY PETE BUTTIGIEG HAS AWARDED SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS TO LOCAL PROJECTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

TO BREAK DOWN THE PROGRESS OF THIS LAW WHICH IS WIDELY POPULAR AND TO DISCUSS THE REMAINING PRESSURES ON THE TRAVEL SECTOR, HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND SECRETARY PETE BUTTIGIEG, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

GOOD TO BE BACK.

YESTERDAY WE HAD ONE OF THE WORST GROUND STOPPAGES SINCE 9/11 BECAUSE OF FAA COMPUTER GLITCH.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO FIX THAT.

WELL, THIS IS A LEVEL OF DISRUPTION THAT CAN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

AND SO OUR FOCUS NOW IS MAKING SURE WE UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT AFFECTED NOT JUST THE SYSTEM ITSELF BUT THE REDUNDANCIES.

AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, A SYSTEM THIS IMPORTANT FOR SAFETY HAS BACK-UPS.

BUT IN THIS CASE THAT WAS NOT SUFFICIENT TO PREVENT A DISRUPTION.

YOU NOW, THE GROUND STOP IT WAS CALLED -- IT WAS A SHUTDOWN LASTING ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF IN THE MORNING.

THAT WAS IMPORTANT IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE WE WERE BEING ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS WERE SAFE BY THE TIME THEY RESUMED.

BUT THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING ROUTINELY.

SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE PINPOINT ALL OF THE DIFFERENT CONTRIBUTING FACTORS TO THIS SITUATION AND IDENTIFY THE NEXT STEPS THAT ARE GOING TO BE NEEDED.

ONE OF THE UNDERLYING PROBLEMS WAS PROBABLY THAT IT WAS A 17-YEAR-OLD SYSTEM, OLDER THAN MOST OF US WOULD USE IN OUR BUSINESSES.

HOW MANY OTHER SYSTEMS LIKE THAT ARE MORE THAN 10 OR 15 YEARS OLD?

YOU KNOW THERE, A LOT.

THIS IS PART OF THE BIGGER STORY OF AMERICA'S AGING INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHETHER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PIECE OF PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE A BRIDGE OR WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PIECE OF DIGITAL INFRASTRUCTURE OR SOFTWARE.

NOW, I WILL SAY THAT WE HAVE BEEN AND ARE UNDERTAKING A NUMBER OF SYSTEM IMPROVEMENTS, UPGRADES AND REPLACEMENTS ACROSS THE FAA BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THE AVIATION SYSTEM IS CHANGING.

BUT IT'S BEING DONE WITH A GREAT DEAL OF CAUTION BECAUSE OF COURSE THE OTHER THING YOU HAVE TO DO ANYTIME YOU'RE MAKING A CHANGE IS PRESERVE THE SAFETY RECORD OF U.S. AVIATION.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY THING THAT MILLIONS OF PASSENGERS FLY AT NEARLY THE SPEED OF SOUND ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ACROSS THE WORLD AND THAT IN A TYPICAL YEAR NOW WE HAVE ZERO COMMERCIAL AIRLINER DEATHS IN THE U.S.

THAT DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN ON ITS OWN.

AND IT MEANS THAT EVEN AS WE LOOK TO THE SYSTEMS OF THE FUTURE WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE BUILD ON AND PRESERVE THAT TRACK RECORD.

THAT I THINK IS THE CHALLENGE IN FRONT OF THE FAA.

AND AS WE GO INTO A NEW SEASON OF AUTHORIZATION WITH THE FIVE-YEAR LEGISLATION THAT REALLY LAYS THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE BUDGET AND THE SYSTEMS THIS WILL OBVIOUSLY BE AN IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR LESSONS LEARNED.

WHAT WILL BE IN THAT FAA REAUTHORIZATION BILL INVOLVING THINGS LIKE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL?

WELL, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE EVERYTHING UP FOR THAT PERIODIC LOOK.

WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEM, THE SYSTEM THAT WAS IMPLICATED IN THIS OUTAGE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY A DIFFERENT SAFETY SYSTEM, OR THE BROADER ISSUES THAT WE HAVE TO PREPARE FOR, NOT JUST FOR PASSENGER AVIATION AS WE KNOW IT BUT MOVING TOWARD HOW IT'S GOING TO EVOLVE.

FOR EXAMPLE, DRONES AND UNCREWED AERIAL SYSTEMS AND VEHICLES.

THERE'S GOING TO BE MUCH, MUCH MORE OF THIS IN THE YEARS TO COME.

THE SAME IS TRUE FOR COMMERCIAL SPACE TRAVEL, WHICH USED TO BE SOMETHING THAT OUR DEPARTMENT WOULD LICENSE OCCASIONALLY.

THERE'S BEEN AN EXPLOSION IN THE PACE OF COMMERCIAL SPACE LAUNCHES.

THAT PACE IS GOING TO CONTINUE PICKING UP.

AND ENSURING THAT THAT IS SAFE AND THAT IT INTEGRATES WITH OUR NATIONAL AIR SPACE IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF WORK.

I THINK THIS WILL BE REALLY AN EXCEPTIONALLY DYNAMIC TIME.

AND THE DIALOGUE WITH CONGRESS IS GOING TO BE PART OF HOW WE PREPARE FOR THAT.

I'M ON THE BOARD OF AN AIRLINE AND WE'VE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT NEXT GEN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL.

TELL ME WHAT THAT IS, WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH IT AND WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN A REALLY GREAT 21st CENTURY AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEM.

WHEN YOU THINK OF HOW AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL WORKS TODAY IT BUILDS ON THE PARADIGM HAS ALWAYS GOVERNED AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL.

WHEN YOU'RE IN A TOWER A LOT OF THE PROCESSES ARE HUMAN AND A LOT OF THE PROCESSES ARE BACKED BY REMARKABLE TECHNOLOGY.

BUT THAT TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN BUILT LAYER ON LAYER.

NEXT GEN IS ABOUT MAKING SURE WE HAVE A NEW PARADIGM FOR THE FUTURE.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE IN SIMPLE TERMS BECAUSE WE'RE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT ONE SYSTEM.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MULTIPLE SYSTEMS WORKING ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.

SOME UPGRADES HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED, WAYS TO FOR EXAMPLE HAVE SOME OF WHAT USED TO BE DONE BY RADIO TRAFFIC BETWEEN THE TOWER AND THE AIRPLANE TURN INTO -- INFORMATION THAT CAN BE COMMUNICATED BY TEXT.

WHICH IS NOT JUST MORE EFFICIENT BUT ALSO HAS A SAFETY BENEFIT.

BUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS, AGAIN, CAN'T BE DONE OVERNIGHT AND HAVE TO BE DONE WITH EXTREME CARE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE PRESERVING ON THE EXTRAORDINARY SAFETY RECORD OF U.S. AVIATION.

THERE HASN'T BEEN AN FAA ADMINISTRATOR SINCE LAST MARCH.

AND EVEN SENATOR CANTWELL, THE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR IN CHARGE OF THE COMMITTEE, HASN'T EVEN SCHEDULED A HEARING ON THE NOMINEE OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

IS THAT A PROBLEM?

WELL, CERTAINLY WE NEED TO GET OUR ADMINISTRATOR FOR THE FAA CONFIRMED.

THE PRESIDENT HAS NOMINATED PHIL WASHINGTON.

HE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY LEADER, CURRENTLY AN AIRPORT CEO WHO I THINK BRINGS THE RIGHT BLEND OF AVIATION EXPERIENCE AND BROADER ORGANIZATIONAL LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE.

YOU KNOW, THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATOR WORKED WELL WITH THE CURRENT ACTING ADMINISTRATOR WHO HAS A SAFETY BACKGROUND IS DOING A GREAT JOB, BUT THERE'S SIMPLY NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HAVING A SENATE-CONFIRMED FAA ADMINISTRATOR IN SEAT.

AND WE ARE HOPEFUL THIS CAN GET QUICK ACTION BECAUSE IT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT PART OF PREPARING THE FAA FOR THE FUTURE.

AND REPUBLICANS LIKE ROGER WICKER SAY HE HAS NO SAFETY EXPERIENCE.

IS THAT A PROBLEM?

AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO NOT ONLY HAS THE AFTHS EXPERIENCE THAT HE'S BUILT FOR EXAMPLE IN HIS CURRENT ROLE AS LEADER OF THE DENVER AIRPORT BUT ALSO ACROSS VARIOUS TRANSPORTATION AND SAFETY SYSTEMS RUNNING L.A. METRO, FOR EXAMPLE.

SOMEBODY WHO WAS DEEPLY INVOLVED IN THE TRANSITION, THE PRESIDENTIAL TRANSITION, HELPING US PREPARE FOR THE CHANGE HERE AT THIS DEPARTMENT, HELPING ME TO PREPARE TO BECOME SECRETARY.

I BELIEVE THAT HE IS A TERRIFIC LEADER.

I HOPE THAT SENATOR WICKER OR ANY SENATOR CAN BE PERSUADED TO SUPPORT HIM.

BUT OF COURSE THAT'S HOW THE PROCESS WORKS WITH HOPEFULLY AN UPCOMING HEARING, TESTIMONY AND VOTE.

YOU STEPPED IN RIGHT AFTER SOUTHWEST HAD ITS PROBLEMS IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

TELL ME WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING FOR PASSENGERS AND MAKING SURE THEY DO FOR PASSENGERS.

OUR FOCUS RIGHT NOW IS TO MAKE SURE SOUTHWEST MEETS ITS RESPONSIBILITIES TO PASSENGERS.

WE DID A LOT OF WORK OVER THE COURSE OF LAST YEAR TO HOLD AIRLINES TO A HIGHER STANDARD OF CUSTOMER SERVICE.

AND I THINK THAT WORK NOW IS PAYING OFF BECAUSE WE WERE ABLE TO REQUIRE THINGS OF SOUTHWEST THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

WHEN WE STARTED PUBLICIZING AIRLINES' CONSUMER PROTECTION PLANS, WE GOT NEW STEPPED UP ENFORCEABLE AGREEMENTS FROM MULTIPLE AIRLINES INCLUDING SOUTHWEST THAT GIVE US NOW THE ABILITY TO REQUIRE THINGS LIKE TAKING CARE OF GROUND EXPENSES, HOTELS, MEALS, VOUCHERS, THAT KIND OF THING.

IN ADDITION TO WHAT HAS LONG BEEN THE CASE, WHICH IS THAT PASSENGERS ARE REQUIRED TO GET A REFUND IF THEY REQUEST ONE ON A CANCELED FLIGHT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE WATCHING VERY CAREFULLY.

SOUTHWEST REALLY UNDER A MICROSCOPE RIGHT NOW TO MAKE SURE THEY MEET THOSE OBLIGATIONS.

IF THEY DON'T THERE CAN BE FINES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS PER VIOLATION.

AND THAT IS A TOOL THAT WE'VE NOT HESITATED TO USE IN CASES WHERE AIRLINES HAVE DRAGGED THEIR FEET TAKING CARE OF PASSENGERS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, LAST YEAR WE I THINK SET A RECORD FOR CIVIL PENALTIES IN A SINGLE YEAR ASSESSED AGAINST AIRLINES.

THAT HELPED CONTRIBUTE TO HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF REFUNDS GETTING BACK TO PASSENGERS.

BUT OF COURSE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS FOR AIRLINES TO DO THE RIGHT THING TO BEGIN WITH SO THAT IT DOESN'T COME TO AN ENFORCEMENT ACTION AND EXPECTING AND LOOKING FOR SOUTHWEST TO DO JUST THAT.

IF ANYBODY HAS AN ISSUE, THEY CAN REPORT IT TO OUR DEPARTMENT.

WE WILL FOLLOW UP AND WE'LL FOLLOW UP WITH ENFORCEMENT.

YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING FOR THE PASSENGERS, MAKING SURE THEY GET ALL THE COMPENSATION AND GROUND EXPENSES.

ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT FOR THE FAA STOPPAGE?

WILL THE FAA -- I THINK THERE WERE 1,200 FLIGHTS CANCELED YESTERDAY.

WE'RE NOT A FOR-PROFIT ORGANIZATION THAT SELLS AIRLINE TICKETS.

WE ARE PRIMARILY A SAFETY ORGANIZATION.

AND THE FOCUS OF FAA HAS TO BE TO TAKE THE STEPS THAT ARE NEEDED TO ENSURE THAT EVERY FLIGHT OPERATION IS SAFE.

THAT WAS NOT A STEP THAT WAS TAKEN LIGHTLY IN TERMS OF THE GROUND STOP BUT THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT PILOTS AND EVERYBODY INVOLVED IN THESE FLIGHT OPERATIONS WAS COMPLETELY SURE THAT EVERYTHING THEY DID WOULD BE COMPLETELY SAFE AND EVERY STEP WE TAKE SAFETY COMES NUMBER ONE.

YOU WROTE A BOOK CALLED 'TRUST' WHICH I FOUND REALLY GOOD.

TELL ME HOW THAT TIES IN TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGES AND THE BRIDGES YOU'RE BUILDING.

WELL, IT TIES IN A GREAT DEAL BECAUSE I THINK PUBLIC TRUST DEPENDS ON PEOPLE SEEING POLICY WORK FOR THEM.

AND YOU KNOW, INFRASTRUCTURE'S A GREAT EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT I THINK OVER TIME REALLY CHIPPED AWAY AT TRUST IN AMERICA.

WE ARE A COUNTRY THAT WATCHED OUR INFRASTRUCTURE FALL BEHIND, BEGAN TO FALL BEHIND OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.

LARGELY BECAUSE WE SIMPLY WEREN'T INVESTING THE WAY WE NEEDED TO IN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES, IN OUR AIRPORTS AND AVIATION SYSTEMS, IN OUR IN OUR TRAINS AND TRANSIT, IN OUR PORTS.

AND THAT DEFINITELY CAUGHT UP TO US OVER THE YEARS, ESPECIALLY IN RECENT YEARS, AND WE'RE DEALING WITH SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THAT RIGHT NOW.

THE GREAT NEWS IS UNDER THE PRESIDENT'S BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW WE NOW HAVE THE MEANS TO MAKE THOSE MICHLTS INVESTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN A LONG TIME NEEDED.

I THINK WE CAN GO FROM A VIRKS CYCLE TO A VIRTUOUS CYCLE BECAUSE THE MORE WE'RE ABLE TO DELIVER, TO HAVE MOMENTS LIKE WHEN I WAS IN SOUTHERN INDIANA IN A SMALL COMMUNITY CELEBRATING THE IMPROVEMENTS TO THEIR RIVER PORT THAT'S GOING TO SURNT JOBS IN THAT PART OF THE AREA ALONG THE OHIO RIVER OR CONNECTICUT WHERE WE WERE CELEBRATING THE FUNDING WE'RE GOING TO PUT INTO THE I-95 BRIDGE THERE THAT SO MANY PEOPLE DEPEND ON.

OR WHEN I WAS IN DETROIT WHERE WE'RE TAKING A ROAD THAT SET IN SUCH A WAY THAT ALMOST WORKED AS A GASH DIVIDING THE CITY, AND OUR FUNDING DETROIT AND THE STATE OF MICHIGAN TO REIMAGINE IT IN A WAY THAT'S ABLE TO CONNECT PEOPLE AND SERVE THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS BETTER.

EVERY TIME WE DO THAT WE ARE BUILDING TRUST THAT I THINK WILL IN TURN HELP BUILD PUBLIC SUPPORT PROVIDE BED WE DELIVER WELL, FOR FURTHER INVESTMENTS AND IMPROVEMENTS.

THAT'S THE WAY GOOD GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK.

WHEN I SAW YOU IN CONNECTICUT DOING THE BRIDGE AND OF COURSE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND MITCH McCONNELL THE REPUBLICAN LATER DOING IT IN KENTUCKY AND OHIO, BRIDGES ARE A GREAT METAPHOR.

A METAPHOR IN SOME WAYS OF BRIDGING OUR POLITICAL DIVIDES.

THERE WAS A SENSE, ESPECIALLY IN THE OHIO-KENTUCKY THING, THAT MAYBE WE WERE TURNING TO A MORE BIPARTISAN OR NON-PARTISAN ERA?

DO YOU SEE THAT AS BEING A THEME IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS AS YOU DO THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND AS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PROCEEDS?

I DO.

ESPECIALLY AS WE GET INTO A DELIVERY MODE.

YOU KNOW, WE SPENT OUR FIRST YEARS IN THE ADMINISTRATION REALLY SELLING THIS PACKAGE AND GETTING IT PASSED.

AS YOU MENTIONED, IT PASSED ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS.

EVEN THOUGH MANY PEOPLE SCOFFED AT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S IDEA THAT YOU COULD DO A BIG BIPARTISAN BILL LIKE THIS.

THAT WAS YEAR ONE GETTING IT PASSED.

YEAR TWO I WAS GETTING THESE PROGRAMS UP AND ROUNING.

IN THIS THIRD YEAR WE'RE FOCUSED ON DELIVERING, GETTING THOSE DOLLARS OUT THE DOOR AND GETTING THINGS BUILT.

THERE IS SOMETHING POWERFULLY SYMBOLIC ABOUT THE BRIDGE BUILDING WE'RE DOING.

AND THAT'S ICONIC BRIDGES LIKE THE BRENT SPENCE BRIDGE WHERE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND LEADER McCONNELL WERE RECENTLY AND ALSO BRIDGES THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT BUT IF IT'S IN YOUR COMMUNITY MEANS THE WORLD TO YOU.

WE HAVE 2,8 BRIDGES THAT ARE GOING TO SEE IMPROVEMENTS BECAUSE OF THE WORK WE'VE DONE WITH THIS LEGISLATION AND MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM.

BUILDING BRIDGES LITERALLY AND PHYSICALLY IS WHAT WE'RE ABOUT AS AN ADMINISTRATION.

THERE HAVE BEEN GREAT OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE WAVES IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THEM.

THREE OR FOUR WAVES.

ONE THAT DID THE RAILWAY AND THEN UNDER LINCOLN DOING THE LAND GRANT COLLEGES.

UNDER EISENHOWER AND OTHERS DOING THE INTERSTATE SYSTEM.

IN SOME WAYS I'M LOOKING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE THEME OF THE 21st CENTURY WAVE THAT WE'LL LOOK BACK ON IN A GENERATION?

BECAUSE SO FAR IT'S P MAINLY BEEN ABOUT RIRPG THE STUFF WE HAD 50 YEARS AGO.

I THINK THE ENDURING JIJ HUMAN BEINGS AND HOW WE MOVE THROUGH OUR INFRASTRUCTURE SYSTEMS.

THOSE PRIOR WAVES, THEY TENDED TO BE FOCUSED ON ONE FORM OF TRANSPORTATION AT A TIME.

SO THE IMAGE OF THE GOLDEN SPIKE WHEN THE LINCOLN ERA CONNECTION OF THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD HAPPENED OR THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM UNDER PRESIDENT EISENHOWER, IT WAS USUALLY ABOUT ONE PARTICULAR FORM OF TRANSPORTATION.

WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW IS MAKING SURE THAT EVERY FORM OF TRANSPORTATION, WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AVIATION, SHIPPING, PERSONAL VEHICLES, PUBLIC TRANSIT IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY, THE BRICK AND FOR THEAR, THE CONCRETE, THE STEAL, BUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO GO ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND HOW YOUR LIFE IS EASIER, HARDER, MORE AFFORDABLE OR LESS AFFORDABLE, SAFER OR LESS SAFE, MORE OR LESS JUST AND EQUITABLE.

DEPENDING ON THE TRAFRPGS THAT'S AVAILABLE.

AND IF WE CAN MAKE SURE YOU HAVE AN AFFORDABLE WAY TO GET TO WHERE YOU'RE GOING, THAT IT'S CONVENIENT, IT'S SAFE AND IT SERVES YOU WELL NO MAT CLEAR ZIP CODE YOU LIVE IN NO MATTER YOUR RACIAL OR SOCIOXHING BACKGROUND THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION IS HERE TO HELP YOU SUCCEED TO HEM YOU GO ABOUT YOUR LIFE WHETHER YOU'RE A STUDENT, A WORKER, A PARENT OR ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS.

THAT I THINK IS WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE FOR ABOUT GENERATION OF HISTORIC INVESTMENT.

COVID REALLY CRUSHED SOME OF OUR TRANSIT SYSTEMS.

RIDERSHIP HAS BEEN DOWN.

THERE ARE NO EXPRESS TRAINS IN SAN FRANCISCO.

WHAT COULD WE BE DOING TO GET PEOPLE BACK ON TO PUBLIC TRANSIT?

I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT PUBLIC TRANSIT IS A GREAT OFFERING FOR PEOPLE TO CHOOSE.

SO IT'S NOT JUST SERVING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO OTHER MEANS TO GET TO WHERE THEY'RE GOING BUT IT'S SERVING ANYBODY WHO IS TRYING TO GET AROUND.

THAT MEANS MAKING SURE EVERYTHING FROM LOOK AND FEEL AND THE PERCEPTION OF SAFETY TO THE ROUTES AND FREQUENCY ARE ALL THERE.

AND PART OF WHY WE'RE MAKING A HISTORIC INVESTMENT IN PUBLIC TRANSIT WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IS WE KNOW THAT THIS CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

IF YOU CAN HAVE MORE FREQUENT ROUTES, IF YOU CAN HAVE MORE ROUTES PERIOD.

WE KNOW THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT CAN DRIVE RIDERSHIP.

AND THEN YOU CAN GET A SNOWBALL EFFECT, A POSITIVE SNOWBALL EFFECT.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE A WHILE FOR TRANSIT AGENCIES EVEN NOW TO CLIMB OUT OF WHAT COVID CONFRONTED THEM WITH.

BUT I THINK THE FUTURE OF TRANSIT IF WE INVEST IN THE RIGHT WAYS COULD ACTUALLY BE VERY BRIGHT GOING INTO THE NEXT DECADE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP 50 YEARS AGO WE HAD SUPERSONIC AIR TRAVEL.

WE TALKED ABOUT BULLET TRAINS.

WE WERE GOING TO BE HAVING HIGH-SPEED RAIL.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE HIGH-SPEED RAIL?

WHY DO WE SEEM LIKE WE'VE REGRESSED?

WHAT ARE ARE THE TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE REALLY FUTURISTIC THAT YOU THINK WE COULD BE PUSHING?

I DO THINK THERE'S A FUTURE FOR HIGH-SPEED RAIL IN THE U.S.

IT'S MADE SUCH A DIFFERENCE IN OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.

AND WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF OTHER EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES.

BUT IT'S PRETTY HUMBLING WHEN YOU TRY TO GET IN THE BUSINESS OF PREDICTING IT BECAUSE OFTEN THE DEVELOPMENTS ARE SURPRISING.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

FOR ALL THE AMAZING THINGS HAPPENING IN TRANSPORTATION IN VEHICLES IN THE LAST FEW YEARS I WOULD ARGUE THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF TRANSPORTATION TECHNOLOGY, THE MOST IMPORTANT INVENTION OF THE LAST DECADE TURNED OUT TO BE THE SMARTPHONE.

THAT ACTUALLY -- IT'S NOT EVEN A VEHICLE YET IT'S CHANGED HOW SO MANY PEOPLE TRAVEL.

I THINK THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE THAT ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS IN OUR TIME, EVEN IN THIS DECADE, WILL HAVE TO DO WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

WE ALREADY SEE MOVES TOWARD THINGS LIKE AUTOMATED DRIVING, ALTHOUGH A LOT HAS TO BE DONE BEFORE WE KNOW THAT THAT CAN BE USED ON A WIDESPREAD BASIS.

AND SO THE TRUTH IS WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VEHICLES AND PROPULSION OR WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMS AND SOFTWARE, WE CAN'T GUESS AT WHAT EVERY INNOVATION WILL BE BUT WE CAN WORK TO MAKE SURE THOSE INNOVATIONS MEET OUR MOST IMPORTANT GOALS.

SAFETY, AFFORDABILITY, CLIMATE, EQUITY, MAKING SURE EVERYBODY'S SERVED WELL.

AND THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT CAN GET MUCH BETTER IF WE SHAPE THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TECHNOLOGIES IN OUR TIME FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL.

SECRETARY PETE BUTTIGIEG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

OF COURSE BUTTIGIEG IS PART OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS PROMOTING DEMOCRACY AS WELL.

NOW, THAT IS UNDER PRESSURE IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD.

IN BRAZIL TENSIONS REMAIN HIGH AFTER THOUSANDS OF BOLSONARO BACKERS STORMED CONGRESS.

THE SUPREME COURT AND THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE ON SUNDAY.

AND IN WASHINGTON CONGRESS, STILL REELING FROM A CHAOTIC SPEAKER ELECTION, PASSED A RULES PACKAGE THAT CONTAINS EVEN MORE CONCESSIONS BY KEVIN McCARTHY TO REPUBLICAN EXTREMISTS.

ALL THIS COMES AS CHINA AND RUSSIA AGGRESSIVELY TEST THE DEMOCRATIC ORDER.

BUT AS AMERICA CONFRONTS CHALLENGES TO DEMOCRACY INTERNALLY, CAN IT CONTINUE ITS INDISPENSABLE GLOBAL LEADERSHIP?

THAT QUESTION IS AT THE HEART OF A COMPELLING NEW BOOK BY THE HISTORIAN ROBERT KAGAN.

IT'S CALLED 'THE GHOST AT THE FEAST: AMERICA AND THE COLLAPSE OF WORLD ORDER 1900 TO 1941.'

IN IT KAGAN TRACKS THE RISE OF AMERICA AS SUPERPOWER IN THE FIRST FOUR DECADES OF THE 20th CENTURY.

WHEN WE SPOKE I ASKED HIM ABOUT DYSFUNCTION AT HOME AMIDST THREATS FROM ABROAD.

ROBERT KAGAN, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU.

LISTEN, BEFORE I GET TO YOUR BOOK I WANT TO ASK ABOUT YOUR OWN HOUSE AND YOUR NEAR ABROAD, YOUR OWN BACK YARD.

SO FIRST THE UNBELIEVABLE SHENANIGANS THAT WENT ON JUST TO GET THIS CONGRESS RUNNING AND ELECT A SPEAKER.

DOES THAT FURTHER EMBOLDEN THOSE SORT OF ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT INSURRECTIONISTS WITHIN THE U.S.

SYSTEM, WHICH REALLY BEGAN I GUESS AROUND NEWT GINGRICH IN THE '90s?

WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THIS HAS BEEN A BIG VICTORY FOR THE MORE RADICAL CONSERVATIVE WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY FORCED NOW SPEAKER McCARTHY TO ADOPT RULES WHICH ARE GOING TO PUT THEM, THESE RADICAL CONSERVATIVES, IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT.

AND I FEEL LIKE THEY ALSO RESURRECTED DONALD TRUMP, SORT OF MAKING HIM -- THE WHOLE AFFAIR MADE TRUMP SEEM LIKE A PIVOTAL FIGURE AND SORT OF PUT HIM BACK IN CHARGE OF THE PARTY.

SO IN TERMS OF THE RISK TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY THAT COMES FROM THE WHOLE TRUMP MOVEMENT I THINK THAT THAT MOVEMENT HAS ACTUALLY COME OUT OF THIS STRONGER THAN THEY WENT IN.

I WONDER IF THAT PLAYED INTO YOUR RESEARCH, INTO YOUR NARRATIVE WHEN YOU WROTE YOUR LATER BOOK, 'THE GHOST AT THE FEAST: AMERICA'S GLOBAL RELUCTANCE.'

I WOULD SAY IN AMERICA AS WELL AS THROUGHOUT EUROPE THERE WERE REAL DOUBTS AS TO WHETHER DEMOCRACY WAS A SUCCESSFUL FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

YOU HAD CHALLENGERS FROM THE FASCIST RIGHT.

YOU HAD CHALLENGERS FROM THE COMMUNIST LEFT.

YOU HAD PROMINENT AMERICANS SAYING THEY DIDN'T THINK DEMOCRACY WAS GOING TO MAKE IT.

AND SO IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING THAT WE'VE HAD THESE TIMES IN THE PAST WHERE PEOPLE HAVE LOST FAITH IN DEMOCRACY AND THERE'S BEEN A REAL ACTIVE STRUGGLE AGAINST IT.

IN THAT CASE IT ULTIMATELY LED TO WORLD WAR II AND THE TRIUMPH OF A DEMOCRATIC WORLD ORDER.

BUT THAT DEMOCRATIC WORLD ORDER IS CONSTANTLY UNDER PRESSURE AND UNDER ATTACK, AND WE SEE IT TODAY IN EUROPE IN TERMS OF RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE.

WE SEE IT IN ASIA IN TERMS OF THE GROWING POWER OF AN AUTHORITARIAN CHINA.

AND SO THE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACED AS A COUNTRY THROUGHOUT THE 21st CENTURY ARE STILL WITH US.

THE WORLD HASN'T CHANGED AS MUCH AS WE THINK IT HAS.

YOU QUOTE, YOU KNOW, WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN, THE POPULIST LEADER, WHO AT THE TIME SAW AMERICA AS THE WORLD'S MORAL ARBITER, 'SOLVING THE PROBLEMS OF CIVILIZATION.'

AND ISN'T THAT REALLY THE HALLMARK OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY?

THIS DECADES-LONG CLASH, IF YOU LIKE, BETWEEN THE IDEA OF THE MORAL IMPERATIVE AND THE NATIONAL INTEREST, THE REALPOLITIK.

AND STILL, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVEN'T QUITE FIGURED OUT THAT IN FACT THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME, THEY BOTH LEAD TO THE SAME END.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND THAT IS WHAT I THINK AMERICANS ARE REPEATEDLY DISCOVERING.

AMERICANS OFTEN DEFINE NATIONAL SECURITY IN A VERY NARROW SENSE, WHICH IS IS THE HOMELAND SECURE, IS SOMEONE ATTACKING US ON THE HOMELAND, IS SOMEONE TRYING TO DESTROY OUR ECONOMY, ET CETERA.

BUT THE REAL DANGERS OUT IN THE WORLD ARE NOT NECESSARILY DIRECTED AT AMERICAN SECURITY.

THEY'RE DIRECTED AT THE SECURITY OF A FREE WORLD.

I JUST WANT TO TAKE THESE TWO INSTANCES IN ORDER, THEN.

THE UNITED STATES DECIDED NOT TO INTERVENE AFTER MUCH CHEST BEATING, AFTER RED LINES THAT WERE DRAWN AND THEN NOT ADDRESSED IN SYRIA.

AT THE TIME I INTERVIEWED WHO WAS THEN UNICEF HEAD, ANTONY LAKE, AN AMERICAN WHO HAD BEEN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON DURING A LOT OF THE WARS LIKE IN THE BALKANS AND ELSEWHERE.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT THE RISK OF NOT INTERVENING, NOT ENDING THE MORAL CATASTROPHE, THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE AND HOW THAT COULD PLAY OUT IN A STRATEGIC ROLE THAT WOULD BACKFIRE.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

IF THESE CHILDREN GROW UP AS A GENERATION THAT DOES NOT HAVE ADEQUATE EDUCATION AND DOES NOT HAVE THE KIND OF COUNSELING THAT THEY NEED NOW TO OVERCOME THE TRAUMAS THAT THEY HAVE ENDURED, THEN IN THE NEXT GENERATION WE'RE GOING TO SEE A REPLICATION OF THE SAME VIOLENCE AND THE SAME PROBLEMS THAT WILL AFFECT BOTH THE REGION AND THE WORLD.

SO THIS IS A QUESTION NOT ONLY OF HUMANITARIAN OBLIGATION.

IT'S ALSO A STRATEGIC SELF-INTEREST FOR ALL OF THESE GOVERNMENTS.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT CERTAINLY THE FAILURE OF THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE ACTION IN SYRIA, ESPECIALLY AFTER DRAWING RED LINES ABOUT THE INTRODUCTION AND THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS, I WOULD SAY CLEARLY EMBOLDENED VLADIMIR PUTIN OVER THE YEARS.

AS DID OUR FAILURE TO REACT STRONGLY TO HIS INVASION OF GEORGIA IN 2008, AS DID OUR FAILURE TO REACT STRONGLY TO HIS INVASION OF UKRAINE AND SEIZURE OF CRIMEA.

AND NOW HERE WE ARE.

AND I THINK ONE THING THAT HISTORY HAS SHOWN US AGAIN AND AGAIN IS THAT OTHER COUNTRIES THAT MAY SEEK TO BE AGGRESSIVE OR MAY SEEK TO BE DOMINANT IN THEIR REGION ARE CONSTANTLY GAUGING HOW THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO RESPOND.

AND TO THE DEGREE THEY BELIEVE THE UNITED STATES IS NOT INTERESTED IN RESPONDING THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE AND PRESS FORWARD.

AND IT'S ONLY WHEN THEY SEE THE UNITED STATES REALLY IS PREPARED TO RESPOND THAT THEY STOP.

AND I THINK IN THAT RESPECT AMERICANS QUITE UNINTENTIONALLY NEVERTHELESS ENCOURAGED INCREASING AGGRESSION ON THE PART OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, BOTH BY THEIR ACTIONS IN SYRIA, THEIR FAILURE TO ACT IN SYRIA, AND THEIR FAILURE TO ACT IN GEORGIA AND UKRAINE.

HE WAS IN A WAY ENCOURAGED TO MOVE FORWARD BY THE PASSIVITY OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES BUT THEN WALKED INTO THIS TRAP AND WHAT HAS TURNED OUT TO BE A DISASTER CERTAINLY FOR THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE BUT ALSO FOR THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

SO LET ME ASK YOU, BOB, BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.

GIVEN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW IN THE FULL LIGHT OF WHAT'S TRANSPIRED OVER THE LAST NEARLY YEAR OF THIS WAR, A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE THE INVASION YOU WROTE IN THE 'WASHINGTON POST,' 'IT IS TIME TO START IMAGINING A WORLD WHERE RUSSIA EFFECTIVELY CONTROLS MUCH OF EASTERN EUROPE AND CHINA CONTROLS MUCH OF EAST ASIA AND THE WESTERN PACIFIC.

AMERICANS AND THEIR DEMOCRATIC ALLIES IN EUROPE AND ASIA WILL HAVE TO DECIDE AGAIN WHETHER THAT WORLD IS TOLERABLE.'

SO THE TWO QUESTIONS HERE.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S COMING TO BEAR?

BECAUSE PUTIN IS REALLY SUFFERING QUITE A LOT OF SETBACKS.

AND DO YOU THINK, THEN, AMERICA HAS LEARNED THE LESSON DESPITE NOT INTERVENING IN SYRIA AND REALLY BIDEN'S DONE A PRETTY SHARP JOB OF INTERVENING AND GATHERING A COALITION TO DEFEND UKRAINE?

WELL, THE ANSWER TO THE SECOND QUESTION IS DEFINITELY YES.

AND I HAVE TO SAY I WAS PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AT THE REACTION NOT ONLY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BUT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES OF EUROPE AND OF ASIA.

THE UNITY THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN IN THE LIBERAL WORLD IN RESPONSE TO THIS AGGRESSION HAS BEEN I WOULD SAY REALLY HEARTENING AND A SIGN THERE'S A LOT OF RESILIENCE TO THAT LIBERAL WORLD, THERE'S A LOT OF RESILIENCE TO AMERICAN LEADERSHIP AND I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS SHOWN THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME IT WAS IN SOME RESPECT AMERICA'S -- BEARS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE FACT THAT THINGS GOT AS BAD AS THEY ARE.

THE ONE POSITIVE OUT OF THIS IS AMERICANS HAVE REALIZED THAT THERE ARE REAL SERIOUS BRUTAL AGGRESSORS OUT THERE WHO WILL COMMIT AGGRESSION IF THE UNITED STATES IS NOT PREPARED TO TRY TO STOP THEM.

SO NOT ONLY BRUTAL AGGRESSOR BUT THIS PARTICULAR ONE HAS SEEN HIS COMMANDERS AND HIS SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND COMMIT ALSO CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, WAR CRIMES AND THE LIKE.

AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE BOTH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND MOST RECENTLY FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER GORDON BROWN TOLD ME THAT YOU CANNOT SHY AWAY, DON'T PUT RED LINES FOR YOURSELF ABOUT HOW FAR YOU CAN GO AGAINST PUTIN BECAUSE HE ONLY RESPONDS TO STRENGTH.

HERE'S WHAT GORDON BROWN TOLD ME.

I'VE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD, BECAUSE I'VE DEALT WITH PUTIN MYSELF WHEN I WAS PRIME MINISTER, THAT THE ONLY THING HE UNDERSTANDS IS STRENGTH.

HE WILL EXPLOIT ANY WEAKNESS ON THE PART OF THE WEST OR ANY OTHER GROUP OF COUNTRIES.

AND WE'VE GOT TO SHOW STRENGTH.

AND ONE OF THE STRENGTHS THAT WE HAVE IS TO SAY THAT THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL CRIME.

YOU'VE GOT TO LINK THE ACTUAL INCIDENTS WHERE PEOPLE ARE MURDERED OR PEOPLE ARE RAPED OR PEOPLE ARE PUT AT RISK TO THE INDIVIDUAL DECISIONS OF A LEADER LIKE PUTIN.

SO YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY BEAT HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD BUT HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE IN REAL TIME.

DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES AND THEIR ALLIES ARE AS YET SENDING A TOUGH ENOUGH MESSAGE TO PUTIN?

I MEAN, TO SOME EXTENT I THINK THERE IS SORT OF TOO MUCH SELF-CHECKING ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PUTIN, HIS NUMBER ONE FEAR IS THAT NATO WILL GET INVOLVED IN THIS CONFLICT.

AFTER ALL, HE'S EFFECTIVELY LOSING TO UKRAINE.

IF YOU ADDED NATO AND THE UNITED STATES TO THE MIX, IT WOULD BE A DISASTER FOR HIM.

AND SO THEREFORE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST HAS A LOT OF LEVERAGE WITH PUTIN.

BUT WE HAVE BEEN I THINK A LITTLE BIT TOO RELUCTANT TO PROVIDE THE UKRAINIANS WITH EVERYTHING THEY COULD POSSIBLY USE.

THE NOTION THAT IF WE GIVE UKRAINE LONG-RANGE WEAPONS THAT SOMEHOW THIS WILL MAKE PUTIN ANGRY, I MEAN, WHAT FURTHER DEMONSTRATION OF PUTIN'S BRUTALITY DO WE NEED?

EVEN WITHOUT THOSE WEAPONS HE'S SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYING UKRAINIAN CITIES.

SO I THINK WE MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT TOO SLOW TO PROVIDE CERTAIN WEAPONS AND WE HAVE STILL NOT PROVIDED WEAPONS THAT I THINK WE SHOULD.

BUT ALSO WE HAVE BEEN -- I MEAN, THE TRUTH IS THE UNITED STATES AND THE ALLIES HAVE BEEN PROVIDING MORE AND MORE AS TIME GOES ON AND THOSE WEAPONS HAVE MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS ENDING?

WELL, I SEE IT ENDING WITH PUTIN FALLING.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK HE'S GOING TO BE CAUSING MORE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION IN UKRAINE.

AND HE'S CLEARLY NOW BENT ON MILITARIZING RUSSIAN SOCIETY COMPLETELY.

AND I THINK THE ONLY -- THE BEST HOPE WE HAVE IS THAT ULTIMATELY THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE WILL RESIST THIS AND THAT PUTIN WON'T BE ABLE TO ORDER THIS KIND OF MILITARIZATION OF RUSSIAN SOCIETY.

BUT THAT IS CERTAINLY THE DIRECTION THAT HE'S GOING IN.

AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TOLERATE.

AND I THINK IT'S USEFUL FOR AMERICANS AND OTHERS TO LEARN ONCE AGAIN THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT YOU REALLY CAN'T DEAL WITH.

THEY ARE IMPLACABLE IN THEIR DETERMINATION TO GET WHAT THEY WANT AND ARE WILLING TO MAKE ENORMOUS SACRIFICES OF OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN ORDER TO GET IT.

OKAY.

SO THAT RAISES, YOU KNOW, A BIT OF A CONUNDRUM.

SOME OF YOUR CRITICS HAVE SAID, NOTABLY ANDREW BACEVICH WHO'S AS YOU KNOW A HISTORIAN WHO'S ALWAYS BEEN SKEPTICAL OF INTERVENTION.

HE BASICALLY SAYS, 'WHATEVER MAY OCCUR IN THE REAL WORLD CAIG SN READY WITH AN EXPLANATION FOR HOW EVENTS AFFIRM THE INDISPENSABILITY OF ASSERTIVE AMERICAN LEADERSHIP.'

SO THAT'S ONE STATEMENT.

AND I WANT YOU TO RESPOND BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID LET'S RELY ON THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

SURELY THAT'S QUIXOTIC.

THERE'S NO WAY THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STOP PUTIN.

AND THE ONLY WAY TO STOP PUTIN IS TO DO WHAT BACEVICH DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO, AND THAT'S DEFEAT HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

I DO THINK THE UNITED STATES IS INDISPENSABLE TO A GLOBAL PEACE THAT WE'RE PREPARED TO LIVE IN.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER, WHICH HAS BENEFITED AMERICANS EXTRAORDINARILY SINCE WORLD WAR II IS A PRODUCT OF AMERICAN POWER.

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST FIGHT A WAR ENDLESSLY AT ENORMOUS COST TO YOUR SOCIETY AND STILL HOLD ON TO POWER, THAT IS THE RECIPE FOR LOSING POWER IN RUSSIA.

CZARS HAVE LOST POWER AS A RESULT OF WARS.

AND I DON'T RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT PUTIN COULD LOSE POWER AS A RESULT OF THIS WAR TOO.

I DON'T THINK IT'S QUIXOTIC.

AND IN ANY CASE IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T AFFECT WHAT WE DO IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST.

WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE CAN HOLD OUT AND DEFEAT RUSSIA AND ENJOY THEIR SOVEREIGNTY AND THEIR FREEDOM.

AND WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN RUSSIA AS A RESULT OF THAT.

AND FINALLY, DO YOU THINK IF THE U.S. AND THE WEST, THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD, DEFEATS PUTIN ON THE UKRAINIAN BATTLEFIELD THOSE GHOSTS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT AT THE FEAST WILL HAVE BEEN EXORCISED?

WELL, LET ME JUST BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THE GHOST AT FEAST MEANT, WHY DID I USE THAT TITLE.

BASICALLY, IT'S A WAY OF EXPRESSING THE WAY THE UNITED STATES ABSENTED ITSELF FROM WORLD AFFAIRS AFTER WORLD WAR I AND ESSENTIALLY ALLOWED THINGS TO GET SO OUT OF CONTROL THAT THE ONLY ANSWER WAS EVENTUALLY INVOLVEMENT IN WORLD WAR II.

THE GOOD THING -- I THINK AMERICANS HAVE LEARNED A GREAT DEAL FROM THAT EXPERIENCE AND FROM THE COLD WAR EXPERIENCE.

AND THERE'S ONE REALLY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE, CHRISTIANE, BETWEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1930s.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THE STEPS THAT HITLER WAS ABLE TO TAKE THAT REALLY CHANGED THE STRATEGIC EQUATION IN EUROPE BEFORE THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN AND FRANCE EVEN TRIED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, HE TOOK THE REST OF THE RHINELAND.

HE TOOK AUSTRIA.

HE TOOK CZECHOSLOVAKIA, ALL WITHOUT A FIGHT.

WHEREAS LOOK AT PUTIN'S SITUATION.

UKRAINE, LET'S SAY, IS THE EQUIVALENT OF CZECHOSLOVAKIA IN TERMS OF ITS STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE, AND HE HAS NOT EVEN BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT.

IN FACT, HE'S BOGGED DOWN.

IMAGINE IF HITLER HAD FAILED TO TAKE CZECHOSLOVAKIA IN 1938.

WHAT WOULD THAT WORLD HAVE LOOKED LIKE?

WE KNOW FROM THE HISTORICAL RECORD THAT THE GERMAN MILITARY THOUGHT THAT HITLER WAS MAKING A TERRIBLE MISTAKE BY CHALLENGING THE WEST IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA AND THEY WERE PREPARED TO OVERTHROW HIM.

AND IF HE HAD LED A CONFLICT WHICH THE CZECHS HAD FOUGHT BACK, AND THE CZECHS HAD THE CAPACITY TO FIGHT, WITH BRITISH AND FRENCH SUPPORT, IT'S ENTIRELY LIKELY THAT HITLER WOULD HAVE FAILED AND MIGHT EVEN HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF POWER.

THAT IS THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE FACING NOW IN UKRAINE.

AND I THINK THE GOOD NEWS IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE DEMONSTRATED THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO RESPOND EARLY ENOUGH, MAYBE NOT AS EARLY AS I MIGHT WISH, BUT EARLY ENOUGH TO STOP ONE OF THESE AUTOCRATIC AGGRESSORS IN THEIR TRACKS.

IT'S AN AMAZING STORY.

ROBERT KAGAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

THANK YOU.

ROBERT KAGAN LAYING OUT QUITE CLEARLY WHY THE STAKES ARE SO HIGH WHEN IT COMES TO PUTIN'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

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