Author Isabel Wilkerson on America’s Unspoken Caste System

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And turning now to the United States, where our next guest says the death of Tyre Nichols is the latest tragedy to shine a light on the nation’s long-standing yet unspoken social hierarchy. In her recent “Time Magazine” cover story, Pulitzer Prize winner Isabel Wilkerson argues that from January 6th to Tyre Nichols, American life is still defined by caste. And she joins Michel Martin to discuss how it continues to infringe on the rights of the marginalized.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Isabel Wilkerson, thank you for joining us.

ISABEL WILKERSON, AUTHOR, “CASTE: THE ORIGINS OF OUR DISCONTENTS”: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: You wrote a book in 2020, a very well received book, called “Caste”. And you’ve recently published an article in Time, you know, based on the afterward of the book. You argue that a lot of the things that we’re going through now, from January 6th to the Tyre Nichols murder, can be traced to caste. So, would you just talk about, like, why you said — first of all, what is caste? And how do we understand that, say, different from, I don’t know, sort of inequality of some other sort? And why do you say that so many events are actually tied to an American, sort of, an unspoken caste system in American life.

WILKERSON: Well, caste is essentially, you know, a millennia old form of stratification and hierarchy within a society. And it has certain pillars, certain characteristics such as purity versus pollution, control endogamy, control of marriage, who can be with whom. And historically, our country has had or was built upon many of the characteristics of a caste system. It’s hard for us to acknowledge that or think about it because we don’t think ourselves as having a caste system. But our country was built on a system of hierarchy, graded ranking of human value which is what a caste system is. And in any caste system, you could choose any number of metrics to divide in the rank people. In our society, in our country, the metric that was used to divide and rank in our people was what people looked like which is what we now use as, you know, as the idea of race. And we can see the after effects of that in our current day. We — you know, this book that I wrote, “Caste” came out in 2020 with the trajectory of the lifespan of this book. It came out just weeks after George Floyd had been killed, then six months later, there was January 6th which was, you know, historic, you know, inflection point in our country’s history. We have to go back to the 19th century to find anything closely analogous to that. And then we have the overturning of Roe V. Wade, then — you know, then just weeks before this book came out in paperback, which you referred to afterword of, we have the killing of Tyre Nichols. And there are connections between all of these things, which take us back to the idea of our originating deficiency showing up even now.

MARTIN: I think many people — well, people who are honest can admit that Nazi Germany, in fact, drew some of the inspiration for their kind of racial hierarchy system which they imposed, you know, on Jewish people, from the American apartheid system. But where did Americans get this from? Do you have a sense of that? Do you have an understanding, like, where do this — because this is a very, kind of, complex, but kind of complete social theory that permeates —

WILKERSON: Yes.

MARTIN: — every aspect of life. So, where does this come from in the American story?

WILKERSON: Well, you know, it — you — we’re happy to go back to thinking about how, you know, humanity is very, very old. But this country is relatively new, you know, in human history. And with going back to, you know, the establishment of the United States — of what would become the United States and essentially the entire western hemisphere which was colonized by the Europeans and creating a new form, a new system of human interaction, and human exploitation with enslavement. So, we had, for the first time in human history, people from different parts of the world, who looked different from one another, co-habiting in the same space. Of course, this was built upon the Europeans first, you know, took the land and then imported people to do the work of building this country. And in doing so, they, you know, they used what people looked like. They took the, you know, like the physical characteristics which have no meaning other than the beautiful manifestation of physical representation of humanity. And they used that to create a hierarchy, based upon what people look like. So, they took that and added — created a value, they established a value to what people looked like. And those who were assigned at the very bottom, you know, conveniently for their purposes looked different from those who assigned themselves to the top. And that was the beginning. There would have been no need — there’s actually no need, if you think about it to — for Europeans before the time of enslavement and before the creation of what we now say as United States, for people to be thinking of themselves as white when they were German, they were Polish, they were Irish, they were all these other things. But they did not identify themselves by what we now have come to see as, sort of, a defining characteristic which is the basis of our hierarchy. I think that we as Americans need to recognize and learn the true history of our country. To recognize just how singular, we happen to be in a way that we probably don’t wish to be.

MARTIN: Uh-huh. I want to talk about that in a minute and the role — the critical role of talking about history plays in all this. But I wanted to ask you to, sort of, walk me through some of the what seemingly disparate elements, or events — recent events that you tied to what you call the, sort of, unspoken caste system. So, start with January 6th which, you know, happened so soon after your book came out. How do you trace January 6th, the mob attack on the Capitol, the coup attempt, and the attempt to overturn a lawful election. But how do you tie January 6th, specifically, to the — what you call the unspoken caste system of American life?

WILKERSON: Well, the idea of caste is about ranking status and the value which attached to one status. It had nothing to do with anything to anyone does since you’re born to it. And again, it’s based in our society, it’s based upon what you look like which is, you know, been translated into race. And so, it affects ones standing, respect, benefit of the doubt, access to resources, assumptions and competence, and worthiness. And it accords entitlements that are built into the system. And if you’re at the — if you’re assigned — if you’re from the group that’s been assigned the top since the founding of our country, then there are benefits that you are getting, whether they were recognized or not. Whether you even — you know that in your bones. And so, one of the things that we — one of the reasons I wrote this book was because of the impending inversion that our country is facing demographically. The census is projecting that by 2042 or 2045. The demographic configuration that we have all come to recognize, adjust to, live with, for as long as it’s been United States of America is expected to be over — to be changed, such that there would be — the historic majority would no longer in the majority. And the 2020 census — the book came out in 2020, but the 2020 census which the results of which have not become available until 2021, showed that for the first time in our country’s history, the historic majority of white Americans fell for the very first time. Now, white Americans are still the majority by far but it fell, for the very first time. Other bridge (ph) did not fall. And so, these are — we are facing an existential crisis in which we are looking at a configuration that no one has experienced before. And these are pressures that are — that can well up inside of a society. Those who have been born to the dominant group who had perceived themselves as losing the status, the rank, and automatic deference and entitlements that come without one trying. It’s not about — it’s not personal, it’s just what comes with the structure of our society. And so, I believe that that is part of it. Now, one of the things that was significant in looking at January 6th versus January — versus what happened to George Floyd is that George Floyd, as we all, you know, horrifically saw was killed before our very eyes. But he was killed presumably because he had been accused of having tried to pass a counterfeit $20 bill, which is an infraction that is generally handled with a citation at a court date. So, he should be alive today. And then six months later, there was this — what we saw on January 6th, where there where insurrectionists who broke into the Capitol, who, you know, attacked police officers, leading to the deaths of half a dozen officers. And we saw at the end of that day, those same people who had rampaged through statutory hall and ransacked the belongings of lawmakers and ultimately resulting in the deaths of half a dozen officers. We saw those same people, what I would call the dominant caste in our country, walk down the steps of the Capitol with their lives, something that have been denied to George Floyd just months before.

MARTIN: But what about Tyre Nichols? I mean, you also tie this to caste. And of course, you know, as we now know, there are five — the five Memphis police officers who have been charged in the death of Tyre Nichols, who is beaten to death, after a traffic stop, all of them are black.

WILKERSON: Right.

MARTIN: And how do you tie that to the caste system? Because some people say, well, that’s just bad training, bad people, that’s bad apples. That’s a bad apples’ problem, or they’re too inexperienced, or they’re too hyped up. So, how do you tie that to caste?

WILKERSON: Well, we’re so accustomed to the polarity of black versus white, for one thing, so we wouldn’t necessarily even connect it to race in any way, shape, or form, or those kinds of things we would assume while they’re all black. So, this has nothing to do with any of these divisions that we have inherited as Americans. But caste allowed us to see that this is an aspect of the dehumanization that happens within a caste system. Caste system is, you know, essentially positions of some people at the bottom and is focus on keeping certain people at the bottom so that others can remain secure in their place above them. And so, when you have a situation like Tyre Nichols who suffered unbelievable suffering in that situation, and we look at that and we realize that this — that almost any — in a caste system, almost any atrocity can be directed toward those who are identified and recognized as being at the very bottom of the hierarchy. And that means that these atrocities could go — could be inflicted upon them by anyone, in any group, including their own group because the — there are sentinels at everyone (ph) in a caste system. And you do not have to be in the dominant caste in order to do its bidding.

MARTIN: And so — any — and so, I think what I hear you saying is that these folks are of so little value, that whatever happens to them is unimportant. That even other black people are the people — members of marginalized groups don’t have to respect the human dignity of someone who belongs to that group.

WILKERSON: Absolutely. And the status part of all of this is that this is encoded into everyone. Everyone knows which groups can be subjected to almost anything in which — are protected from that structure in our society.

MARTIN: You also tie the issues around restricting immigration, particularly at the southern border. The rights of LGBTQ people and access to abortion. You tie this to the caste system because you say that these are examples of desperate efforts by a, “Diminishing but dominant subset of Americans to impose their will on the rest of the country through population control.” You know, the defenders of these positions would say, well, no, these are our religious beliefs. They are religious beliefs that speak to the importance of protecting vulnerable life. And in the case of — or gender rules, as they are understood. And in the case of immigration, I think people would say, well, gosh. You know, it’s the culture or it’s our labor markets that we’re protecting. So, how do you tie that to this same unifying idea?

WILKERSON: Well, the — you know, certainly religion has an important role for many, many people around the globe. So, this is not a criticism of religion itself. But it so happens that, you know, when our country was being founded and the hierarchy of our country was being established with enslavement as the basis of the social political and economic order of our society, it was being justified and rationalized through the bible itself. The story about Noah and his sons was frequently referred to basis for enslavement and our country. So, the bible was distorted and Christianity was distorted to affirm and rationalize the hierarchy that was being created in this country. And so, now that we see ourselves in a — facing an existential crisis circumstance which none of us have lived with, we do not know what it’s like when we have an inversion of our demographics, there would be expected to be a response to the potential inversion of our society. But these are existential questions that the country is facing. And those that have the greatest stake in maintaining our hierarchy will go to great lengths in order to maintain their place in this hierarchy.

MARTIN: This notion that you talk about — that you talked about in the book and that you talk about in your op-ed about replacement theory has now gone mainstream, if I may put it that way, among a certain set of people. I mean, you know, language, arguments that were considered, you know, profoundly racist. The province of fringe terrorists, like Timothy McVeigh, you know, who was a believer in this replacement theory. This has gone mainstream now with a certain group of people who have a big platform. And so, I guess the question I have is, you know, you talk a little bit about this, but I want to ask you is, in the time we have left to talk about, what is the answer here? Especially at a time when you’ve got a number of powerful actors, governors, you know, state lawmakers, activists, conservative activists not just pushing this theory, but also trying to make it difficult to counter that argument with information.

WILKERSON: I think the resistance to knowledge is the same with the bans and the resistance to understanding what’s happening in our country means that those of us who care about democracy, those of us who care about a fair, more egalitarian society need to focus on making sure that we know all that we can about our country. That we learn and recognize that our country is like an old house. You are not the one who created the uneven pillars in choice and beings, and the freight (ph) wiring and bloated pipes. But once you take possession of that house, it is up to you. It is up to you to fix whatever is wrong. And we have many, many systems that are facing challenges and need overhaul, repair and overhaul, in our country and that means that we have a lot of work to do. The beauty of looking at our country as an old house, I describe myself as sort of the inspector of this old house in the column, is that it allows us to recognize that this is not — we don’t get anywhere by making this something about blame and shame and guilt. That we have to roll up our sleeves and get to work, to be — to fix this. But you can’t fix what you don’t recognize and you can’t heal from what you have not diagnosed. And the goal is to first understand, how did we get here? Caste allows us to see. Looking at the infrastructure of our country, whatever we call that, allows us to see the definite breadth of what we are up against. And so, we, I think, need to learn to recognize our country’s history, to know how we got to where we are and to not be surprised when these things happen but to get ahead of it, and to recognize what we’re facing as a country in order to make this the most egalitarian, open, and country with the most potential. This is — what I’ve done is a prayer for our country. It is of prayer that we find a way to get ahead of this existential crisis so that we can make this a country that we want it to be, that’s embracing of all people. We have a chance to create a country that embraces all, and that is a fair and more egalitarian one for all, and hopefully even a more successful one that’s been.

MARTIN: Isabel Wilkerson, thank you so much for talking with us today.

WILKERSON: Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy.