How Do You Serve a Friend in Despair? David Brooks on Loss

PAULA NEWTON, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And now, to a topic which is, of course, difficult but so important to discuss. New York Times Columnist David Brooks lost his lifelong friend, Peter, to suicide last April, three years after he was diagnosed with clinical depression. Now, David has detailed what he learned throughout Peter’s journey in his latest column, “How Do You Serve a Friend in Despair?” Now, he joins Hari Sreenivasan to share some of those lessons that he’s learned.

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HARI SREENIVASAN, CORRESPONDENT: Paula, thanks. David Brooks, thank you so much for joining us. You wrote a column that resonated with so many “New York Times” readers, I think in part because it wasn’t what you usually write. It wasn’t about politics. It wasn’t about ideology. It was about your friend, Peter. And the title of it is, “How Do You Serve a Friend in Despair?” First, for the audience who might not have read the column, tell us a little bit about Peter.

DAVID BROOKS, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Well, Peter and I met when we were 11. We went to the same summer camp in Ivoryton, Connecticut, a camp called Incarnation Camp. And we started out as campers and were there for about 10 years together as campers and counselors. And we stayed friends for life. Oldest friend I ever had. And I described him as exuberantly playful. He was the kind of guy who — the story I tell is he was skipping around our little dining room there. He was a big guy, probably about six-three, six-four. And he is skipping around, you know, just being his joyous self, and he tries to slip through — skip through a doorway and he slams his head on the top of the door frame and he lands flat on his back, and we all cracked up. He cracks up. And that to me is him. And as he aged, he got probably a little more serious. He did well in school. Became — when he joined the navy, he became an eye surgeon. And he was — my wife had a phrase about him that I put in the piece, which is, he was extraordinary and ordinary at the same time. And she meant that as a high compliment, which is to say he was masculine the way you are supposed to be masculine, just understated and gentle. A father the way you are supposed to be a father, filled with just playfulness and joy and pride in his sons. And he always said, he was the luckiest man in his marriage because he — the person the whole world he wanted to talk to when he got home at night was going to be sitting there right across from him at the dining room table. So, he had, in many ways, a very rich and blessed life.

SREENIVASAN: You describe a change in the spring of 2019. What happened?

BROOKS: Yes. I went back — we went back to camp to just hang out there. And it was in June of 2019. And my wife noticed something immediately in him, that his affect, his emotional state, had gone flat. And there was a flatness in his voice. And there was this certain thing we did every time, you’re not going to believe this, Hari, but I play basketball. And so, our favorite thing to do was to play basketball. And then, go around and jump in the lake by there and go swimming. And he was doing the thing he loved to do most in the world, and he still wasn’t enjoying it. And so, he pulled us aside at the end of the weekend and said, there’s something amiss, there’s something different with me. And he just asked for our friendship and support, which, of course, was easy to give.

SREENIVASAN: So, he was conscious that there was a change in how he was perceiving the world. What steps was he taking to figure it out?

BROOKS: Well, you know, he was a doctor. And so, he was early on diagnosed with clinical depression. And he, of course, saw — I said I — there are almost two Pete’s during the three years that he suffered from this severe depression. The first Pete was the one who is suffering. And the second Pete was the one who is standing back and observing himself, and just trying to figure out. And they went through every possible treatment they could think of. And I think the tour through the health care system was filled with choices and severe and bitter disappointments when something wouldn’t work. And his wife, Jen, and I, have spoken often about this, that she — they both came to realize that the mental health care system is horribly siloed. That in her case, she’s had cancer and they had what they call a tumor board, a whole bunch of different doctors, all bringing different perspectives on one case. But in mental health, at least in many places, you try one treatment with one doctor, you build a relationship with that doctor. And then, if the treatment doesn’t work, you are gone, you are off to the next doctor. And so, it’s just one silo after another. And so, he was not someone who is going untreated. He was someone who tried everything through the years with this brutal illness, these lying voices, this obsessive compulsion. Pete fought it every step of the way and it was revelatory to me how little we know about depression, even after all these years, after so many people have suffered from it and how little research money we are devoting to it. And, you know, we really should be devoting a lot more because it has become an epidemic as we know.

SREENIVASAN: You know, part of what is intriguing about your friend, I think, to a lot of the readers is that this is a person, and we say this often after suicide, seemed to have it all, right? He had a support system. He had people who loved him, that he loved, a wonderful family. He was aware that this was happening and yet, at the end, he took his own life. And what does that say to you about how deep depression is?

BROOKS: Yes. It’s just a monster of a disease. And, you know, I’m not — Stephen Fry has a saying, the actor, that if you have a friend with depression, don’t ask him why. And I think — just walk with them and be there at the other end. And I think that — I’ve learned a lot from that, that you don’t want to ask why. I’m not sure — you know, Pete had theories, but I’m not sure there really is a why. And I think — I just — you know, in my own little way I learned a lot about the disease during those three years. And the first thing I’ve learned was that don’t think you can understand it by extrapolating from your own periods of sadness if you have never suffered your own depression. It’s not an extension of sadness. It’s an altered state of consciousness. And I learned that, you know, don’t try to fix the other person. Early on, in those three years, when we were talking by phone, mostly during COVID, I would say, you know, you used to love going to Vietnam and doing surgery and, you know, curing people. Do that. Go do that. And that was my suggestions. And I’ve since learned that if you try to give people suggestions on how to get out of it, really, you’re just telling them you just don’t get it. You just don’t understand what they are going through. It’s not the ideas about what to do, it’s the motivational desire, it’s the — just the loss of all pleasure. Second thing I would do is like say, you got to create — you know, just — you know, we just said, you got it all. You’re a successful and very accomplished surgeon. You’ve got wonderful kids, a wonderful marriage. Think how good your life is. And I’ve learned that’s also not the right thing to say because if you tell people, they should be enjoying, they feel bad about not enjoying the things that are palpably enjoyable. And so, I learned that’s just not how to do it. And now, just finally, the one thing I think I helped, the one nicest thing I did that Pete found some solace in, I sent him a video, which I recommend to viewers, which is — was a sermon given by my news — our colleague, Michael Gerson, who had suffered from depression. And he gave a sermon about it at the National Cathedral and some online, on YouTube. And he said, depression is a malfunction in the apparatus we used to perceive reality. And that is the person who is suffering depression isn’t seeing reality, frankly, the way they should. And Mike said he had these obsessive-compulsive voices in his head lying to him, that you are not worth anything. No one will miss you. And I think when I sent Pete that video, that one thing Pete said, yes, that is what it’s like. And so, I really got an appreciation for the magnitude of the disease.

SREENIVASAN: I lost a friend to this a few years ago and I still struggle with a kind of mix of emotions that I feel about it. And on the one hand, obviously, I’m incredibly sad that I lost this buddy of mine who’ve I’ve loved for a long time and who I won’t get to grow old with. And then, at the same time, there is these little hangs of anger, like, why did you do this? Why did you leave your wife and daughters? Why did you leave me and all of our friends? Right? It’s like a very complex web of emotions that this triggers for so many people around you in a way that, if you busted a leg, it wouldn’t, you know. It’s just horrifying to those that are kind of left behind.

BROOKS: It’s because we have the illusion that is freewill. That the — that we have the illusion that that person’s mind is on our side, and that person’s mind is on his side. And so, we assume our mind is on their side. And so, we think, well, how did you do this? And I think Pete — I don’t think he ever told me this, but I think in his final days Pete persuaded himself that he was doing a favor for his family. He was relieving them of the burden. Maybe your friend had the same thoughts. And all I can tell you, if anybody has ever had that thought go through their mind, having lived through the wreckage of what happened, I can tell you that that thought is completely wrong. But, you know, we — so, I think we have learned to try to overcome that thought, that you just made a big mistake because the machine with which they made the mistake was severely malfunctioning. And the other thing, I would say, two other quick things, Hari. The first thing is I’ve learned I feel I should’ve done other things differently. I should have sent him more postcards, just little text saying, you know, I’m thinking about you. You don’t need to reply. I should have done that. And so, I feel regret about that. But I don’t think there’s anything any of us could have done to alter what happened. And so, that’s, I think, something that those of us who are still here should give ourselves, you know, some forgiveness about this disease. If it was bigger than my friend Pete or your friend, that’s going to be bigger than us.

SREENIVASAN: According to the NIH, between 2000 and 2020, one in five Americans were affected by mental illness. And the CDC put out a Youth Risk Behavior Survey this month and that was incredibly disturbing. According to the report, in 2021 almost 60 percent of female students experienced persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness during the past year. Nearly 25 percent made a suicide plan. That’s one in four young girls. This is just staggering, that if it was anything else that was affecting this large of a proportion of our population, you’d think we would move heaven and earth to do something about it.

BROOKS: Yes. And the research into depression is still so much smaller than cancer and other things, which, obviously, we should be researching. And I think about it in two levels. First on the individual level, with my friend or your friend, there is no great trend that explains it. It was particular to that person. But I think society, on a societal level, I do think we can point to some trends. I mean, for the shocking numbers with teenage girls, the number one answer is social media. Their social participation is at its highest. And I do think it’s — and if you look at the trends in when it really turned and spiked, it’s right around 2012 and 2013, and that’s the smartphone. That is when the smartphone happened. And so, social media plays just a gigantic role. It doesn’t, I don’t think, play a role for — a lot of the other people who are suffering from depression, suicide, or even the deaths of despair where, you know, older men presumably. And there, I would point to two things. One, the loss of community. The bowling alone. The idea that we people used to be ensconced and enshrouded in this web of thick relationships, an oaks (ph) club, a bowling league, at a church or a synagogue, or a mosque. And just a lot of people are not enshrouded in those webs or rich relationships the way they used to. And then, the second, and this would be a little more controversial, but it’s my theory, which is that for many centuries in our different cultures and our different religions and our different civilizations, we taught each other how to be considerate to each other in the daily rituals of life. There was a great cause of what you would call moral formation, trying to teach us how to be kind, just like how to do hard social skills, how to have a hard conversation, how to disagree with respect, how to ask for forgiveness, how to sit through someone who is suffering and have a good conversation. And for some reason, in our culture, we don’t teach those skills. And I feel we have just dropped the ball in teaching the elemental social skills of tending to each other.

SREENIVASAN: What is it, you think, that explains the kind of disorientation for us who have been left behind? I mean, you write eloquently that, you know, it’s as if I went to Montana and suddenly, the mountains had disappeared. That’s a good way to look at it. But why do you think that is, that it is so monumental to friends and family?

BROOKS: Yes. I mean, the — you know, especially with Pete that I knew since I was 11, he’s basically lifelong friend. Somebody who I always assumed would always be there. And suddenly, to have him not there, it’s like just disorienting. But the grief of when it’s the death of a friend is different and unusual. And I found it more serious than I anticipated. Hari, back when you and I were Wayward Youths, we used to do a little program called “The Doubleheader.” And you, me and Mark Shields would get together to talk about sports.

SREENIVASAN: Yes.

BROOKS: And so, Mark and I were partners on the news hour for 20 odd years, and he also died last year. And it’s just like, that guy has just been around and he’s been woven into your life. And Mike Gerson whose sermon I quoted, he also dies. And so, those three losses were, for me, an introduction into grief of once friends. And it really is — and when — you know, I’ve learned that when you suffer a grief, it basically upsets all the mental models of reality that you have in you. What one expert called your assumptive world, the assumptions you make about reality. And those models are all destroyed and you have to go through a process to make a new set of models. You have a new set of assumptions about the world and what it’s like. And that’s just a process of grief that’s unconscious, that goes, has its own pace, that’s filled with repetitions and painful memories and happy memories and it’s unpredictable. And there’s no shortcuts through that process.

SREENIVASAN: You know, your article, your column was titled “How Do You Serve a Friend in Despair?” So, what’s your tip on how we can serve people in our lives that we find in these situations?

BROOKS: Yes. I think — and any encounter, but especially an encounter with someone who’s suffering, they are looking to you to answer a few basic questions. Do I matter to you? Am I a priority for you? Are you still there? Will you leave me? And I think those are the only questions you can answer. You can’t answer the questions, why this is happening? You can answer the question, how do you get out of this? You can only answer the questions, am I a priority for you? Will you walk with me? And I think that’s the best you can do. You just ride it out. And toward the end of the process, I wasn’t trying to do much. I was just trying to be present as the normal friend we always had, and hoping that he would be able to be present, the normal front he always was. So, in some sense, it’s a scaling down of expectations, but to be present is no small thing to somebody. And then, I had another friend who was a mutual friend of mine and Pete, who said, you know, give his spouse or give the people who are — his primary caretakers, give them some time off. Give them some moments to relax. And so, that was also something I wish I had done a little more, of COVID, sort of inhibited this and that, but I do think those were also wise words.

SREENIVASAN: Columnist for “The New York Times,” David Brooks, thank you so much for the column and for writing this, and my condolences to Pete’s family and to you and your — the rest of Pete’s friends for their loss.

BROOKS: Well, thank you, Hari. It’s good to be with you again. It’s good to be — and it’s good to be able to talk about Pete.

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NEWTON: A worthy conversation there. So, if you or anyone you know is in need of help in the United States, you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. It provides confidential support. And for anyone outside of the United States, a worldwide direct of resources and international hotlines is provided by the International Association for Suicide Prevention. You can also turn to the global organization, Befrienders.