July 12, 2023

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> EVERYBODY EMPHASIZED THAT UKRAINE'S PLACE IS IN NATO, THE QUESTION IS NOT IF, BUT WHEN.

>> AS ZELENSKYY MEETS WITH NATO LEADERS AND REFUSES TO GIVE UP ON BLOC MEMBERSHIP, THE ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER DISCUSSES GIVING UKRAINE THE MILITARY EDGE.

>>> THEN, KEEPING BIG TECH UNDER CONTROL.

WE HEAR FROM THE MAN ENFORCING THE EU'S NEW SOCIAL MEDIA RULES AND REGULATING WHAT THEY DO WITH YOUR DATA.

>>> AND VERMONT UNDER WATER.

A MAJOR CLEANUP IS UNDER WAY AS DEVASTATING FLOODWATERS BEGIN TO RECEDE.

WE'LL HAVE THE VERY LATEST.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> HAVING BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF THREATS AND HARASSMENT FOR THE PAST YEAR-PLUS, I KNOW THAT THESE CAMPAIGNS HAVE A REAL HUMAN EFFECT.

>> HOW THE WOMAN TASKED WITH TAKING DOWN DISINFORMATION BECAME THE TARGET OF CONSPIRACY CAMPAIGNS.

FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL NINA JANKOWICZ STARTS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOAL LOUD RIGA IN NEW YORK.

WHEN THE NATO SUMMIT KICKED OFF THIS WEEK, THERE WAS ONLY ONE PRIORITY.

MATERIAL SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

AND NOW, AS THE CRITICAL MEETING WRAPS UP, WE KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN AND G7 LEADERS ARE ANNOUNCING A NEW PACKAGE TO BOOST KYIV'S MILITARY CAPABILITIES.

GERMANY IS PLEDGING MORE PATRIOT MISSILES.

AND A COALITION OF 11 MEMBER STATES IS BEING FORMED TO TRAIN UKRAINIAN PILOTS ON F-16s.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY MAY NOT HAVE RECEIVED HIS LONG COVETED INVITATION TO JOIN THE BLOC, BUT BY NO MEANS IS HE WALKING AWAY EMPTY HANDED.

EVEN THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF AGREES THAT THE RESULTS ARE GOOD.

BUT THERE ARE SOME HARSH WORDS FROM UK DEFENSE SECRETARY BEN WALLACE, HITTING OUT AT UKRAINE'S, QUOTE, SHOPPING LIST OF WEAPONS.

HE SAID WE'RE, QUOTE, NOT AMAZON, HIGHLIGHTING THE CONSIDERABLE SUPPORT THAT THE ALLIES HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED.

ESTONIA'S PRIME MINISTER IS ONE OF UKRAINE'S FIERCEST DEFENDERS.

HER TOUGH TALK ON RUSSIA EVEN EARNING HER THE NICKNAME THE NEXT MARGARET THATCHER.

LIVING RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO RUSSIA, SHE'S CONSISTENTLY CALLED FOR EUROPE TO UP ITS DEFENSE SPENDING, AND SHE JOINED ME EARLIER TO DISCUSS THE CURRENT STATE OF PLAY.

PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

SO, YESTERDAY, WE SAW NATO MEMBERS PLEDGE TO EXTEND AN INVITATION TO UKRAINE TO JOIN THE ALLIANCE ONCE ALLIES HAD AGREED AN CONDITIONS ARE MET.

THERE WAS NO TIMELINE PRESENTED AND NO SPECIFIC CRITERIA LAID OUT, AND THAT LED TO A SHARP REBUKE FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, WHO CALLED IT UNPRECEDENTED AND ABSURD.

YOU HAVE SAID YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HIS FRUSTRATION, BUT THIS IS ALL THAT NATO CAN OFFER.

WHY CAN'T NATO AT LEAST OFFER A TIMELINE AT THIS POINT?

>> FIRST, I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE CAN'T DRAFT UKRAINE INTO NATO, WE HAVE TO BACK THE WORDS WITH CONCRETE DEEDS, AND THAT IS ACTUALLY BEHIND THOSE DEBATES THAT WE HAD YESTERDAY AND ALSO TODAY, MEANING THAT ALL THE ALLIES, THE BIG ONES, THE SMALL ONES, ARE TAKING THIS VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY, AND TODAY, EVERYBODY EMPHASIZED THAT UKRAINE'S PLACE IS IN NATO.

THE QUESTION IS NOT IF, BUT WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN.

AND WE HAVE AGREED PRACTICAL STEPS AND PATHWAYS TO GET THERE, SO, IF THOSE CONDITIONS ARE MET, THE OPPORTUNITY WINDOW OPENS WHEN THE WAR ENDS, THEN WE CAN ADMIT UKRAINE INTO NATO AND HAVE THIS ARTICLE V COVERAGE ALSO FOR UKRAINE AND THAT IS THE ONLY FUNCTIONING SECURITY GUARANTEE THERE IS.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT A FINAL DOCUMENT INCLUDE THE WORD INVITATION.

HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT THAT WILL HAPPEN?

>> WELL, IT HAS WORDS, INVITE, IN IT, SO, I THINK THAT IS CLEAR MESSAGE.

AND ALSO TODAY, WHEN WE HAD THE FIRST EVER NATO-UKRAINE COUNCIL, ALL THE ALLIES AROUND THE TABLE SAID THAT THE QUESTION IS WHEN, NOT IF UKRAINE WILL BECOME A MEMBER.

SO, NOW WE HAVE CONCRETE STEPS.

THE FOREIGN MINISTERS WILL REVIEW THIS PROCESS EVERY YEAR, TO NUDGE THIS PROCESS FURTHER.

WHAT MORE CAN WE DO?

WE GET RID OF THE MAP, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT ANYMORE.

WE HAVE THE UKRAINE-NATO COUNCIL, WHERE UKRAINE IS EQUAL MEMBER AROUND THE TABLE, THAT IS ANALOG TO THE ARTICLE IV CONSULTATIONS THAT WE HAD, TOGETHER WITH NATO MEMBERS, SO, THERE ARE MANY PRACTICAL STEPS ON THE WAY TO REALLY PUSH THIS PROCESS FURTHER.

AND WHAT IS ALSO VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IS THAT ALL THE ALLIES PLEDGED ALSO TO SUPPORT UKRAINE IN THEIR DEFENSE SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES, SEND MILITARY AID, POLITICAL SUPPORT, EVERYTHING THAT THEY NEED, AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

>> AND WE'VE SEEN THAT PLEDGE REITERATED BY THE G7 LEADERS, AS WELL, TODAY.

BUT IT'S HARD TO IGNORE SOME OF THE TENSION THAT WE'VE SEEN REALLY BUBBLE UP FROM THE UK DEFENSE MINISTER, EVEN TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, JAKE SULLIVAN, IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION FROM A UKRAINIAN THERE, UKRAINIAN ACTIVIST, THAT UKRAINE, IN SOME SENSE, IS NOT BEING GRATEFUL ENOUGH, OR IS NOT EXPRESSING ENOUGH GRATITUDE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS ISSUE?

AND IS THIS THE RIGHT FORUM TO BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION?

>> WELL, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND EVERYBODY'S POSITION.

ON ONE SIDE, WE SEE THE FRUSTRATION OF UKRAINE, THEY WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPENING FASTER, THIS IS UNDERSTANDABLE, I MEAN, THEY ALSO WANT PEACE IN UKRAINE, THAT THE NATO UMBRELLA BRINGS TO OTHER YEAR EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, ALLIES ARE DOING A LOT TO HELP UKRAINE.

I MEAN, TODAY, WE HEARD COALITION OF F-16s, WE HAVE HEARD, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT BEING GIVEN TO UKRAINE.

WE HAVE THE AMMUNITION INITIATIVE ON THE EUROPEAN LEVEL, SO, TO DELIVER 1 MILLION ROUNDS OF ARTILLERY SHELLS TO UKRAINE.

WE HAVE SO MANY THINGS WHERE ALLIES REALLY, REALLY MAKE AN EFFORT TO HELP UKRAINE SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES.

SO, THIS IS -- I MEAN, UNDERSTANDABLE THAT EVERYBODY'S DOING WHAT THEY CAN AND REALLY WANT TO MAKE AND COME -- MAKE THIS WAR STOP.

>> YOU'RE SEEING THAT EUROPE IS NOT PREPARED ENOUGH FOR THE NEW SECURITY REALITIES, AND HERE'S WHAT YOU WROTE.

YOU SAID THAT SINCE THAT INVASION BEGAN, WE HAVE SEEN RUSSIA FIRE EUROPE'S MONTHLY ARTILLERY PRODUCTION IN ONE SINGLE DAY IN EUROPE.

BUT WE HAVE SEEN ALLIES REALLY STEP UP TO THIS 2% PLEDGE OF GDP FOR DEFENSE SPENDING, THIS PLEDGE HAD BEEN MADE YEARS AGO, BUT SINCE RUSSIA'S INVASION, WE'VE SEEN COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY APPEAR TO MEET THAT THRESHOLD AS SOON AS NEXT YEAR, FRANCE IS CLOSE TO THAT TARGET, AND PRESIDENT MACRON PROMISED TO LIFT MILITARY SPENDING EVEN MORE.

YOU HAVE HAVE PLEDGED 3%.

IS PERHAPS THE ISSUE HERE THAT THAT 2% PLEDGE, THAT THRESHOLD, DOES NEED TO BE LIFTED BEYOND JUST 2% AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, I AM OF THE OPINION THAT WE NEED TO DO MORE.

IN 1988, THERE WAS -- ALL THE ALLIES WERE INVESTING 2% OF THEIR GDP TO DEFENSE, BECAUSE THE THREAT WAS REAL.

AND NOW MY QUESTION IS, WE HAVE A WAR GOING ON IN EUROPE, AND NOT ALL THE ALLIES ARE REALLY MAKING THIS CONTRIBUTION, OR INVESTMENT TO DEFENSE.

SO, I WOULD SEE -- I MEAN, ESTONIA IS DOING 3% OF THE GDP, BUT IT IS GLAD TO SEE THAT ALL THE ALLIES ACTUALLY COMMITTED TO AN OBLIGATION TO INVEST AT LEAST 2%.

SO, THAT IS ALREADY A START, BECAUSE WE ADOPTED VERY GOOD MILITARY PLANS TO DEFEND ALL THE TERRITORY OF NATO, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO PUT, YOU KNOW, PRACTICAL STEPS BEHIND IT, AND THAT MEANS EQUIPMENT, AND THAT MEANS FUNDING BEHIND THIS EQUIPMENT.

>> WE'VE SEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN RELUCTANTLY, HE SAID, MAKE THE DECISION TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH CONTROVERSIAL CLUSTER MUNITIONS, CLUSTER BOMBS.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD SUPPORTED, AS WELL, BUT WERE BLOCKED BY GERMANY.

WHY DO YOU SUPPORT THIS DECISION?

AND WHAT EFFECTIVENESS DO YOU THINK THAT PROVIDING UKRAINE WITH CLUSTER BOMBS WILL HAVE IN THIS WAR?

>> WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING TO HELP UKRAINE, AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

AND OF COURSE WHEN THERE IS NO MORE AMMUNITION TO GIVE AND -- EXCEPTBOMBS, I THINK WE HAVE TO GIVE THOSE AS WELL.

UKRAINE HAS SAID THEY WILL NOT USE THEM ON THOSE TERRITORIES WHERE YOU HAVE CIVILIANS.

THEY WILL JUST USE THEM TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND PUSH RUSSIA BACK TO RUSSIA.

I MEAN, THAT IS THE AIM THAT WE ALL HAVE, AND THAT IS WHY UKRAINE IS ALSO GRATEFUL FOR THE CLUSTER BOMBS THAT U.S. IS GIVING THEM.

>> ESTONIA AND OTHER BALTIC STATES WERE FORMER MEMBERS OF THE SOVIET UNION.

AND FOR YOU, THIS IS VERY PERSONAL, IN THE RECENT SOVIET OCCUPATION IS PERSONAL FOR THOSE THAT LIVE IN THAT COUNTRY AND OBVIOUSLY NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES THAT BORDER THE SOVIET UNION.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE ALLIES AS A WHOLE, ALL 31 OF THEM, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, UNDERSTAND AND RESPECT YOUR CONCERNS AND HAVE RESPONDED ADEQUATELY ENOUGH?

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT GOING INTO THIS SUMMIT, I KNOW YOU HAD EXPRESSED WANTING MORE CONCRETE MEASURES AND STEPS AND GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE, AS WELL.

>> WELL, LET ME FIRST CORRECT YOU.

WE ARE NOT FORMER SOVIET MEMBER STATES, BUT WE WERE OCCUPIED BY RUSSIA, SO, THAT WASN'T VOLUNTARY.

AND -- >> YEAH, OF COURSE.

>> IT HAS BEEN ORE 30 YEARS, SO, HOPEFULLY WE CAN BE PAST THAT TITLE.

BUT COMING TO YOUR QUESTION, THEN, WE HAVE DIFFERENT HISTORY WITH OUR ALLIES.

WE'RE BEHIND THE COLD WAR, BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN, AND WE WERE SUFFERING THERE A LOT, AND THE OTHER SIDE OF THE IRON CURTAIN WAS BUILDING UP THEIR PROSPERITY AND THE WELL-BEING OF PEOPLE.

SO, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS TO LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.

I MEAN, THE WORRIES, THE FEARS THAT DIFFERENT ALLIES HAVE REGARDING RUSSIA, THAT COMES FROM HISTORY, BUT ALSO OUR EXPERIENCE, SEEING RUSSIA VERY, VERY UP CLOSE AND SEEING HOW THEY FUNCTION, THEIR PLAYBOOK HASN'T CHANGED.

THE WAY THEY OCCUPY AND DELIVER ALL THE ATROCITIES THAT THEY DID IN MY COUNTRY OR UKRAINE OR LATVIA, LITHUANIA, POLAND, FOR THAT MATTER THIS HASN'T CHANGED.

SO, WE KNOW HOW THEY OPERATE, AND THAT'S WHY, I THINK, HERE WE SHOULD ALSO BE LISTENED TO, BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW TO CUT THIS HISTOICAL CYCLE, AND THE KEY TO THIS IS, OF COURSE, RUSSIA GOING BACK TO RUSSIA, AGGRESSION NOT PAYING OFF, BUT ALSO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE WAR CRIMES.

BUT ALSO THE CRIMES OF AGGRESSION THAT IS THE LEADERSHIP CRIME THAT NO LEADER IS LEFT UNPUNISHED FOR WHAT THEY HAVE COMMITTED.

>> PRIME MINISTER, WE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW, IS BIG TECH ABOUT TO GET A BIG WAKEUP CALL?

SOCIAL MEDIA GIANTS ARE BRACING THEMSELVES FOR NEW EUROPEAN CONTENT RULES COMING INTO FORCE NEXT MONTH.

THINK SAFETY PRECAUTIONS AND HEFTY BILLION DOLLAR FINES.

IT'S ALL ABOUT REIGNING IN THE POWER OF THESE DIGITAL PLATFORMS IN AN AGE OF DISINFORMATION AND THE THREAT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THE MAN TASKED WITH ENFORCING THESE REGULATIONS AND KEEPING PLATFORMS IS HONEST HAS BEEN MEETING WITH TECH LEADERS SUCH AS MARK ZUCKERBERG, SAM ALTMAN, AND MORE.

AND HE GAVE A STARK WARNING TO TWITTER, SAYING THEY CANNOT HIDE FROM THEIR OBLIGATIONS.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM BRUSSELS.

IT IS AN UNENVIABLE TASK YOU ARE ASSIGNED WITH, BUT HERE WE ARE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE STEPS YOU ARE IMPLEMENTING, THE DIGITAL SERVICES ACT.

19 LARGE ONLINE PLATFORMS WILL BE SUBJECTED TO NEW REGULATIONS.

CAN YOU LAY OUT SPECIFICALLY WHAT THESE REGULATIONS ARE, AND WHAT THEY'RE MEANT TO DO?

>> YES, AS YOU JUST SAID, STARTING AUGUST 25th, WE WILL REGULATE THE BIGGEST, LARGEST PLATFORMS, 19 OF THEM, VERY LARGE ONLINE PLATFORMS, AND WE WILL REQUEST FROM THESE PLATFORMS TO FOLLOW OUR RULES DICTATED BY OUR DEMOCRACY.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE ALL KNOW THAT WE HAVE RULES IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD, BUT WE HAD NO RULES IN THE DIGITAL SPACE.

AND NOW, WE TRANSFER THESE RULES SO THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE SAME KIND OF PROTECTIONS THAT WE HAVE IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

IN OTHER WORDS, NO MORE HATE SPEECH, NO MORE FAKE NEWS, NO MORE INTENT TO CRIMINALITY, NO MORE TERRORIST CONTENT, AND SO ON.

THE PLATFORMS WILL HAVE REGULATION, IN OTHER WORDS, IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THE MARKET, AND WE WANT THEM TO BENEFIT, OF COURSE, WE ARE THE LARGEST DIGITAL MARKET OF THE FREE WORLD, SO, WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S REALLY APPEALING, BUT ALSO, WE HAVE SOME RULES, AND WE WANT, OF COURSE, ALL THE PLATFORMS TO CONTINUE TO PROVIDE, BUT ALSO TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE OUR RULES.

AND IN ORDER TO DO THIS, I HAVE BEEN VERY CAUTIOUS TOGETHER WITH MY TEAM TO EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT THE PLATFORMS WILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH, INCLUDING WITH -- WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO MAKE SURE THAT, AGAIN, EVERYBODY IS RESPONDING TO OUR RULES.

AND, OF COURSE, IF THIS NOT HAPPEN, WE WILL HAVE FINES, BUT I HOPE THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE TO GO UP TO THERE.

AND TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERY SINGLE PLATFORM WILL BE ABLE TO COMPLY, TOGETHER WITH MY TEAM, WE PROPOSED TO HAVE STRESS TEST, JUST TO HELP THEM TO BE PREPARED.

VERY IMPORTANT STRESS TEST WITH TWITTER, WITH META, WE'LL HAVE NEXT WEEK ALSO WITH TIKTOK, AND OTHERS, TO MAKE SURE, AGAIN, THAT ON THE 25th, EVERYBODY WILL BE READY.

>> WHAT ARE THESE STRESS TESTS ENTAILING?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE JUST DISCUSSING WITH THEM MAKING SURE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND ALL THE RULES OF OUR LAW.

AGAIN, THIS IS OUR LAW NOW, IN EUROPE.

THIS HAS BEEN VOTED BY OUR PARLIAMENT AND BY OUR MEMBER STATES.

SO, NOW, OF COURSE, IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO, BUT FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS IN CALIFORNIA TWO WEEKS AGO, AND I HAD AN INTENSE DISCUSSION WITH META AND WITH MARK ZUCKERBERG HIMSELF, HE TOLD ME THAT HE HIRED MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE TO MAKE SURE THAT META WILL BE ABLE TO FULFILL THESE REGULATIONS.

SO, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING, THEY UNDERSTAND ALSO HOW WE WILL OPERATE.

WE WILL HAVE THE CAPACITY TO CONDUCT AUDIT, ALSO, IN THIS PLATFORMS AND WHAT WE WILL EXPECT FROM THEM.

>> BILLIONS OF USERS, IT'S QUESTIONABLE WHETHER 1,000 EMPLOYEES IS ENOUGH FOR META TO DO WHAT MARK ZUCKERBERG SAID THAT HE'S INTENDED UPON DOING.

YOU MENTIONED META, THEY HAVE JUST LOST AN APPEAL IN GERMANY OVER WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY COLLECT USER DATA.

WE NOTE THAT META, THAT META NOW HAS JUST ROLLED OUT THREADS AND THEY OWN INSTAGRAM AND WHATSAPP.

DO YOU THINK THE COMPANY AS A WHOLE IS TOO BIG TO REGULATE?

>> NO, I THINK COMPANIES ARE COMPANIES, AND, BY THE WAY, THEY ARE BIG, IT MEANS THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL, BUT THE BIGGER YOU ARE, THE MORE RESPONSIBILITY YOU HAVE.

AND THIS IS -- EVERYTHING THAT WE DISCUSSED, THAT I DISCUSSED PERSONALLY WITH THE CEOs WITH THESE COMPANIES, AND OF COURSE, THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND, AND I UNDERSTAND, THEY HAVE A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITIES FOR A WAY TO WORK IN TERM OF DEMOCRACY.

WE ARE -- WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY WILL APPLY THESE RULES.

OF COURSE THEY ARE BIG, THEY WILL HAVE TO BE EVEN MORE CAUTIOUS.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE DIGITAL MARKET ACT, WHICH WILL GIVE THEM ALSO SOME, LET'S SAY OBLIGATION TO BE DIFFERENTLY, THE BIGGER THAT THEY ARE.

IN OTHER WORDS, NO MORE MONOPOLY, NO MORE CAPACITY TO STEAL THE DATA THAT YOU DON'T OWN, AND SO ON, REGARDING YOUR SIZE.

>> WELL, THESE ARE LOFTY GOALS AND AMBITIONS, NO DOUBT, BUT YOU'RE ALREADY SEEING MORE AND MORE LAWSUITS, AND THIS IS BEFORE THE DIGITAL SERVICES ACT EVEN BEGINS TO BE IMPLEMENTED.

AMAZON IS SUING FOR ONE EXAMPLE, THEY FEEL YOU ARE BEING UNFAIR TO THEM, AND THEY ARE BEING SINGLED OUT.

THEIR STATEMENT HAS BEEN THAT THEY ARE NOT THE LARGEST RETAILER IN ANY OF THE EU COMPANIES WHERE WE OPERATE.

I MENTIONED THIS LAWSUIT FROM META, ARE YOU PREPARED TO GO TO COURT AND PERHAPS FIGHT FOR SOME OF THESE LAWS THAT YOU ARE ROLLING OUT FOR YEARS PER HAPPENS?

>> ABSOLUTELY, BUT AGAIN, REMEMBER, IT IS THIS LAW THAT WILL APPLY ON THE 25th OF AUGUST.

OF COURSE, AGAIN, WE ARE DEMOCRACY, SO, THEY COULD APPEAL, IF THEY JUDGE -- IF THEY DON'T BELONG TOLL THIS CATEGORY OF SYSTEMIC PLATFORMS.

WE FOLLOW VERY CAREFULLY AS THE RULES GIVEN BY OUR COLEGISLATORS, SO, WE ARE VERY COMFORTABLE THAT ALL THE 19 PLATFORMS, INCLUDING AMAZON, BELONG TO THIS CATEGORY, BUT OF COURSE, IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO GO RESULT, THEY WILL HAVE TO COMPLY, BECAUSE AGAIN, IT'S A REGULATION, AND WE ARE VERY COMFORTABLE THAT, OF COURSE, WE MET EVALUATION QUICKLY REGARDING OUR LAWS, BUT AGAIN, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO APPEAL.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THEY WILL DO IT.

WE'LL SEE.

BUT IN BETWEEN, THEY WILL HAVE TO COMPLY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT WE SAW TRANSPIRE IN FRANCE LAST WEEK, AND THAT WAS THE RIOTS TRIGGERED BY THE POLICE SHOOTING OF A 17-YEAR-OLD.

MANY OF THOSE ARRESTED AND MANY OF THOSE RIOTING WERE YOUNG TEENAGERS BETWEEN THE AGES OF 14 AND 18, AND MANY OF THEM TOOK TO ONLINE PLATFORMS, SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, SNAPCHAT AND TIKTOK, WERE JUST SOME OF THEM, THEY WERE USED TO COORDINATE WITH SOME OF THESE VIOLENT RIOTS.

AND IN RESPONSE, WE SAW PRESIDENT MACRON, AT LEAST IN MEETINGS WITH SOME MAYORS, SUGGEST CUTTING OFF ACCESS TO SOCIAL MEDIA SITES IN TIMES OF PROTEST LIKE THIS, AND YOU SEEM TO BACK THAT UP IN SUPPORT.

YOU MENTIONED THE NEED TO PRESERVE DEMOCRACY.

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE SAYING ACTS LIKE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE SEEING MORE IN COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA OR NORTH KOREA, AND THAT'S MIMICKING CENSORSHIP.

>> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A LAW.

NOW IN EUROPE, NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SHUT DOWN A NETWORK OR A PLATFORM.

NOBODY.

IT CANNOT BE A CEO, CANNOT BE A BOARD OF DIRECTOR, COULD NOT BE THE STATE, COULD NOT BE A CITY OR WHATEVER.

WE HAVE NOW RULES.

WHEN I SAY WE HAVE, IT WILL BE THE 25th OF AUGUST THIS YEAR.

BUT OF COURSE, BEFORE THAT, YES, I SAID MYSELF THAT I THINK THAT THE PLATFORMS DIDN'T PLAY THE ROLE THAT THEY HAD TO PLAY.

BY THE WAY, ALL THE PLATFORMS THAT YOU MENTIONED, THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WILL HAVE TO DO ON AUGUST 25th.

AND SOME DIDN'T DO IT.

MY CALL TO THEM IS TO BE PREPARED BEFORE, AND AGAIN, TO ACT BEFORE AS IF IT WAS ALREADY THE 25th OF AUGUST, BECAUSE AFTER THIS DATE, THEY WILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH ALL OF OUR REGULATION, INCLUDING WHEN, LIKE WE SAW ON THESE PLATFORMS DURING THESE RIOTS, AND AGAIN, WE SAW THIS IN MANY COUNTRIES INCLUDING IN THE U.S., WE HAD SOME CALL FOR MEETING -- SORRY TO SAY THAT, BUT MURDER, AND THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AT ALL AND PUNISHED BY LAW, AND NOW ON THE 26th OF AUGUST, IF THEY DON'T -- THEY WILL BE RESPONSIBLE.

BUT OF COURSE, THE FREEDOM OF INTERNET WILL CONTINUE, BUT WE HAVE RULES, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT.

REMEMBER, DURING THE EVENT IN THE UNITED STATES WITH THE CAPITOL EVENTS, IT HAS BEEN A BIG DISCUSSION IF IT WAS APPROPRIATE THAT WHOEVER -- WHATEVER WOULD SAY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES COULD BE BANNED OFF A NETWORK.

YOU REMEMBER THIS.

AND THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN IN EUROPE, BECAUSE IT WILL NOT BE JUST AS A CEO OR BOARD.

WE WILL HAVE TO FULFILL THE LAW.

>> AS YOU KNOW, IN A DEMOCRACY, A LOT OF THESE DECISIONS ARE ULTIMATELY DECIDED BY A JUDGE, AND WHAT WE JUST SAW IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION APPEALING A RECENT RULING BY A JUDGE THAT IS BANNING CERTAIN ADMINISTRATION FIGURES AND PARTS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION FROM REACHING OUT AND DIRECTLY CONTACTED SOCIAL MEDIA SITES.

THE GOVERNMENT IS NOW APPEALING THAT.

DO YOU SUPPORT THAT APPEAL FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

OR DO YOU SUPPORT THIS DECISION BY THE JUSTICE?

>> NO, I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT ON WHAT HAPPENED OUTSIDE OF EUROPE, BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT IN EUROPE, OF COURSE, WHEN A JUDGE WILL SAY THAT SOMETHING WRAP HAPPENING ON THE NETWORK, THE NETWORK WILL HAVE TO REACT IMMEDIATELY.

AND OUR JOB, IF I MAY SAY SO, WITH MY TEAM OF ENFORCER, WILL BE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PLATFORM WILL BE IN CAPACITY TO REACT IMMEDIATELY.

INCLUDING CONTROLLING THEIR -- AND THIS IS WHY, AGAIN, I REPEAT, I'M SORRY TO REPEAT THIS, BUT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND, EXCELLENT REGULATION MEANS THAT IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE, YOU HAVE TO FULFILL WITH CERTAIN OBLIGATIONS, AND OUR MISSION WILL BE TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE READY, AGAIN, TO ANSWER IMMEDIATELY, LET'S SAY, TO A JUDGE, WHEN IT WILL BE NECESSARY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION.

>> THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING IN EUROPE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION, BECAUSE IN THE INTRO, I MENTIONED THAT YOUR STARK WARNING TO TWITTER AND ITS CEO, OBVIOUSLY, ELON MUSK, JUST ANNOUNCING TODAY, HE HAS INVESTED IN AN A.I.

COMPANY AND NOW HE IS SAYING THAT THE MISSION, ACCORDING TO THIS COMPANY'S WEBSITE, IS TO, QUOTE, UNDERSTAND THE TRUE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE.

WE KNOW THE EU IS LEADING THE WAY IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AS WELL, WITH THE A.I.

ACT.

WHAT WILL YOU BE DOING AND HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT CERTAIN A.I.

COMPANIES WILL NOT FOLLOW THE REGULATORY MEASURES THAT ARE BEING INTRODUCED AND NOT IMPLEMENT THEM?

>> AGAIN, IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO HAVE RULES.

IN EUROPE, I BELIEVE IT WILL BE THE BEST PLACE TO COME TO INNOVATE, BECAUSE WE HAVE CLEAR, VERY CLEAR RULES.

NOT TOO STRONG.

INCLUDING A.I.

IN A.I., IT WILL BE RISK-BASED REGULATION.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT WILL BE FOUR CATEGORY OF RISK, THERE ARE THINGS THAT WILL BE TOTALLY FORBIDDEN, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, SOCIAL SCORING.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE WILL WATCH VERY CAREFULLY, THINGS THAT WE WILL NEED TO HAVE SOME WATERMARKING, LIKE IN GENERATIVE A.I., AND SO ON.

SO, WE HAVE THE RULES THAT WILL BE SIMPLE, THAT'S RISK-BASED RULES, AGAIN, BUT OF COURSE, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE HAVE A NEW TECHNOLOGY, WE JUST GIVE THE GUIDELINES.

IT HAS BEEN THE SAME THING IN A PREVIOUS REVOLUTION.

THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY, IT WAS FANTASTIC.

AT THE BEGINNING, NO RULES.

THEN SPEED LIMIT, THEN AIR BAGS, THEN SECURE SEAT BELT.

YES, WE NEED ALSO IN A BIG REVOLUTION TO GIVE RULES TO PROTECT OUR ASSETS AND TO BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM EVERYTHING GOOD IT WILL BRING.

>> WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WOULD LOVE TO YOU HAVE BACK ON TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS.

APPRECIATE THE TIME TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, WE TURN NOW TO VERMONT, IN THE GRIP OF DEVASTATING FLOODING.

RESCUE EFFORTS ARE ON GOING AND MAJOR CLEANUP IS UNDER WAY.

THE WATERS MAY BE RECEDING, BUT THE SITUATION IS FAR FROM OVER, WITH MORE RAIN FORECAST OVER THE COMING DAYS.

AND THE STATE'S GOVERNOR CALLING THE SITUATION HISTORIC AND CATASTROPHIC.

BECCA BALLANT HAS PRAISED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR ENSURING THE AREA WILL GET THE RESOURCES THEY NEED.

AND LAURIE URLICH IS LEADING IN THE AREA, AS WELL.

I'M SO SORRY ABOUT WHAT YOUR CONSTITUENTS, CONGRESSWOMAN, ARE GOING THROUGH, AND HAVE LIVED FOR THE LAST 48 HOURS.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND THERE AND WHAT ARE YOU SEEING?

>> SO, WHAT WE'RE SEEING ARE HUNDREDS OF VERMONTERS PITCHING IN ACROSS THE STATE.

WELL OFTEN REFER TO OURSELVES AS THE BRAVE LITTLE STATE, DATES BACK TO A SPEECH THAT CALVIN COOLIDGE GAVE.

WE SHOW OURSELVES AT OUR BEST OFTEN IN THESE EMERGENCIES, AND SO, AS YOU LOOK BEHIND ME, ON STATE STREET HERE IN VERMONT SO, MANY PEOPLE TURNING OUT TO HELP LOCAL BUSINESSES, TO CLEAN UP AND TRY TO GET THEIR LIVES BACK IN ORDER, BUT THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH DEVASTATION, NOT JUST ON SMALL BUSINESSES, BUT ON FAMILIES ACROSS THE STATE.

AND ALSO ON OUR FARMERS.

I SAW A LOT OF DAMAGED FARMLAND AS I WAS COMING DOWN FROM THE AIRPORT TODAY.

AND WE ARE JUST SO EXCITED TO HAVE FEMA ON THE GROUND ALREADY HERE IN VERMONT.

WE NEED OUR PARTNERSHIPS WITH STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO MAKE SURE THAT VERMONTERS CAN GET BACK ON THEIR FEET.

LAURIE, I'M SO GLAD YOU ARE HERE TODAY TO SUPPORT US.

>> YEAH, AND I'M THRILLED TO BE HERE.

AS THE REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR FOR NEW ENGLAND, WE WERE TRACKING THIS BEFORE THE STORM AND DURING THE STORM, AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE -- WE'RE THRILLED TO BE HERE TO REALLY HELP VERMONT THROUGH THIS, AND WORK WITH OUR STATE PARTNERS AND EVEN -- EVEN NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS, AS WELL, TO HELP VERMONT THROUGH THIS.

WE'RE GRATEFUL THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS ABLE TO SIGN A VERY SWIFT EMERGENCY DECLARATION, WHICH WILL BRING RESOURCES TO BEAR, AND THEN WE'RE NOW TODAY, WE'RE HERE DOING THE ALL-IMPORTANT ASSESSMENTS, WHICH ACTUALLY HAVE THE ADMINISTRATOR OF FEMA FLYING OVERHEAD, AND ON THE GROUND, TO REALLY JUST MAKE AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT, SO WE CAN GET VERMONT THE RESOURCES THEY NEED.

>> AND LAURIE, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE HORRIFIC AFTERMATH THERE, AND JUST THE START OF THE CLEANUP AND RECOVERY.

HOW DOES THIS COMPARE TO HURRICANE IRENE IN 2011?

AND UP UNTIL NOW, THAT WAS THE MOST CATASTROPHIC INCIDENT THERE IN THAT STATE.

NOW, ANOTHER NATURAL DISASTER, EVEN WORSE, AND THAT IS JUST THE TORRENTIAL RAINS OVER THE PAST 48 HOURS.

COMPARE THE TWO.

>> YEAH, WELL, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO COMPARE THE TWO, BECAUSE I DID NOT -- I WAS NOT WITH FEMA, BUT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, IRENE WAS CATASTROPHIC.

THIS, YOU KNOW, AND THERE WAS LOSS OF LIFE.

THANKFULLY, THIS TIME AROUND, THERE IS NO CONFIRMED LIVES LOST, AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

BUT THE DAMAGE IS EXTREME.

AND EXTENSIVE.

AND JUST FROM WHAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE TODAY, TOURING AROUND, IT IS REALLY OF GREAT CONCERN.

AND THEN LOOKING AT THE WEATHER FORECAST THURSDAY AND FRIDAY MAY BRING MORE RAIN.

WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THE NUMBERS WILL BE, BUT WE'VE SEEN ONE TO TWO INCHES ARE POSSIBLE, AND THE DAMS ARE FULL, THE GROUND IS SATURATED, AND THERE'S JUST NO ROOM FOR MORE RAIN.

SO, WE FEEL FOR THE PEOPLE OF VERMONT, AND WE'RE HAPPY TO BE HERE TO HELP, AND ACTUALLY GET EYES ON THE GROUND AS TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

WE'RE ALSO VERY MUCH IN TOUCH WITH THE GOVERNOR, HIS EMERGENCY MANAGER, AND THEIR TEAM, AND WE HAVE FEMA PEOPLE WORKING CLOSELY WITH THEM HERE ON THE GROUND, AS WELL.

ALSO, THE CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION HAS BEEN IN TOUCH WITH US ON A DAILY BASIS.

SO, WE'RE REALLY HAPPY FOR THEIR ENGAGEMENT AND WE'RE THRILLED TO HELP IN ANY WAY WE CAN.

>> CONGRESSWOMAN, WE ARE JUST IN THE EARLY HOURS OF THE ASSESSMENT HERE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, AS YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT OUT OF DANGER YET.

YOU HAVE MORE RAIN EXPECTED AND FORECAST IN THE DAYS TO COME.

AND THERE IS CONCERN ABOUT WHETHER THE WRIGHTSVILLE DAM CAN WITHSTAND THE PRESSURE AND THE RISING FLOOD WATERS.

WHAT WILL YOU BE WATCHING OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS?

>> YES.

I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THAT.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DAMS ACROSS VERMONT THAT ARE ALMOST AT CAPACITY, AND AS YOU SAID, WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE GET ADDITIONAL RAINFALL ON THURSDAY AND FRIDAY.

I AM SO IMPRESSED WITH THE JOB THAT THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAM HAS DONE ON THE GROUND FROM THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

I FEEL LIKE THEY ARE MONITORING THE DAMS REALLY CLOSELY, MAKING SURE THEY CAN TAKE ANY PRECAUTIONS TO MAKE SURE ALL OF THOSE COMMUNITIES DOWNSTREAM FROM THOSE DAMS ARE EVACUATED IF NEED BE, OR SHORED UP IF THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN WITHSTAND A SPILL OVER THE DAM.

THE OTHER THING I THINK THAT I DON'T WANT TO GET LOST IN ALL OF THIS IS THAT THERE IS THE -- THERE'S THE STRUCTURAL DAMAGE, THERE'S THE DAMAGE TO PEOPLE'S HOMES AND LIVELIHOODS, BUT THIS IS ALSO A REALLY TRAUMATIC EVENT FOR SO MANY OF OUR VERMONTERS WHO STILL REMEMBER HURRICANE IRENE.

I WAS HERE IN VERMONT WHEN THAT HAPPENED, AND YOU ASKED ABOUT SOME OF THE DIFFERENCES.

WE SEE SOME OF OUR LARGER CITIES GETTING IMPACTED DIRECTLY WITH THIS MOST RECENT SET OF STORMS IN A WAY THAT THEY WEREN'T IN THE PAST.

DURING HURRICANE IRENE, A LOT OF OUR SMALLER TOWNS WERE DEVASTATED IN THE VALLEYS.

WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THAT, AS WELL.

IN THESE KINDS OF EVENTS, IT'S OFTEN THE MOST VULNERABLE AND LOW-LYING AREAS THAT ARE THE MOST IMPACTED, SO OUR WORK GOING FORWARD WILL BE MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE PARTNERING WITH OUR STATE AND FEDERAL PARTNERS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF THIS WHOLE, AND THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE RESOURCES TO REALLY HELP US DEAL WITH THE TRAUMA THAT PEOPLE WILL BE CARRYING GOING FORWARD.

>> LALAURIE, ONE OF THE SAD TAKEAWAYS IN ALL OF THIS, THERE IS NO STATE OUT OF THE WOODS FROM ALL OF THIS.

WE HEARD FROM THE CONGRESSWOMAN THERE CONCERN ABOUT INFRA STRUCTURE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS PRIORITIZED, NO DOUBT, BUT IN LIGHT OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND GLOBAL WARMING, IS THIS A CONCERN FOR FEMA THAT PERHAPS MANY OF OUR BIGGEST CITIES AND OUR STATES JUST AREN'T PREPARED FOR SOME OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THESE, YOU KNOW, EVERY SINGLE YEAR, WE HAVE A CATASTROPHIC STORM LIKE THIS.

>> WELL, YES.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS CERTAINLY FRONT OF MIND FOR FEMA.

OUR CURRENT ADMINISTRATOR HAS MADE THAT ONE OF HER HIGHEST PRIORITIES, TO NOT JUST ADDRESS CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT LOOK REALISTICALLY AT THE FUTURE.

AND MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE BUILDING BACK IN A RESILIENT WAY, SO COMMUNITIES ARE BUILT TO WITHSTAND THE WORST THAT CLIMATE CHANGE HAS TO SEND THEM.

SO, IT'S CERTAINLY PART OF -- IT'S CERTAINLY IN THE MIX, AND IT'S CERTAINLY A TOP PRIORITY OF FEMA RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SEEING INCREASING STORMS AND THEY'RE COMING MORE OFTEN AND MORE INTENSE THAN THEY HAVE IN THE PAST, SO, IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT WE AS, YOU KNOW, AS A COUNTRY, HAVE TO THINK ABOUT AND HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE USING OUR LIMITED RESOURCES IN A SMART WAY.

WE DON'T WANT TO JUST TAKE SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DEVASTATED AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AUTOMATICALLY BUILD IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE, SO I THINK DOING IT SMARTLY, AND MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HELPING THE PEOPLE THAT ARE MOST IN NEED, AND THAT WE'RE GETTING THE RESOURCES TO PEOPLE THAT NEED IT.

I MEAN, WE HAVE BEEN SO WARMLY WELCOMED BY VERMONTERS, I MEAN, VERMONT IS SUCH A WONDERFUL STATE TO BEGIN WITH.

AND THE PEOPLE ARE -- THAT I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN ARE WARM AND WELCOMING, BUT WE HAVE BEEN HUGGED, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THEY'RE SO GLAD WE'RE HERE, AND THEY'RE SHARING -- THEY ARE OPENING THEIR HOMES AND BUSINESSES TO SHOW US THE DEVASTATION ON A DEEPLY HUMAN LEVEL.

IT'S JUST DEVASTATING.

>> I SEE THE REPRESENTATIVE THERE NODDING HER HEAD AND APPRECIATING YOUR KIND DESCRIPTION OF HER CONSTITUENTS.

FINAL WORD TO YOU, REPRESENTATIVE, I KNOW YOU'LL BE TOURING SOME OF THE MOST DAMAGED AREAS LATER TODAY.

WHAT ARE YOU EXPECTING TO SAY TO THOSE VICTIMS, THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES AND THEIR WORKPLACE, PERHAPS, AND ARE CONCERNED ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO REBUILD?

>> YEAH, SO, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO -- WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF CONVERSATION AND DEEP LISTENING SESSIONS OVER THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY HOW TO GET THE RESOURCES TO THE PEOPLE QUICKLY.

I KNOW THAT WE HAVE A VERY STRONG RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION AND OUR LOCAL PARTNERS, AS WELL AS THE GOVERNOR.

THE OTHER THING I WANT VERMONTERS TO KNOW IS, YOUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION IS GOING TO BE WORKING REALLY CLOSELY ON CONSTITUENT SERVICES.

THE TWO SENATORS AND I ARE GOING TO BE WORKING TOGETHER ACROSS OUR OFFICES TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ABLE TO CONNECT CONSTITUENTS REALLY QUICKLY TO THE SERVICES THEY NEED, AND SO, THIS IS A TIME, OF COURSE, OF COMING TOGETHER.

IT'S SOMETHING WE DO WELL IN VERMONT, AND IT IS UNFORTUNATE IT HAS TO BE AROUND AN EMERGENCY, BUT WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

AND WE'RE GOING TO STAND TOGETHER.

>> WE ARE THINKING OF YOU AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BRING US UP TO SPEED TODAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW TO THE BATTLE FOR THE TRUTH.

AUTHOR NINA JANKOWICZ WAS THE FACE OF THE U.S. EFFORTS TO TAKE ON DISINFORMATION.

APPOINTED EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF A NEW U.S.

HOMELAND SECURITY BOARD TASKED WITH TACKLING THE ISSUE BACK IN 2022.

BUT IN LESS THAN A MONTH, THE BOARD WAS DISSOLVED AMID A STORM OF RIGHT-WING CRITICISMS THAT IT WAS CENSORING CONSERVATIVE SPEECH.

AT THE SAME TIME, JANKOWICZ WAS FACING THREATS OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

NOW, SHE'S PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE CRITICS AND THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT STARTED TO HOUND HER.

SHE TELLS OUR MICHEL MARTIN JUST HOW SHE INTENDS TO FIGHT BACK.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN, NINA.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU WERE THE HEAD OF THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD.

COULD YOU JUST REMIND US OF WHAT THIS BOARD WAS MEANT TO DO?

>> SURE.

THIS WAS AN INTRAAGENCY POLICY GROUP AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, OR MEANING TO COORDINATE THE BEST PRACTICES ACROSS THE DEPARTMENT TO -- TO REALLY RESPOND TO DISINFORMATION.

OF COURSE, THAT BOARD NEVER GOT OFF THE GROUND BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES, COMING MOSTLY FROM THE AMERICAN RIGHT, THAT SAID THAT THE BOARD WAS GOING TO BE ENGAGING IN CENSORSHIP.

THAT HAD NO BASIS IN REALITY.

I WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN A JOB THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

AND AS A RESULT, WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY WITH MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE ATTACKING DISINFORMATION RESEARCHERS, THAT REALLY ALL STEMMED, IN MY OPINION, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THAT CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE BOARD.

>> SO, YOU WERE THE TARGET OF A DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN FOR BEING PART OF A WORKING GROUP THAT WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS DISINFORMATION.

>> YEAH THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

IT'S VERY IRONIC, BUT I ALSO THINK, IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT MAKES ME BETTER FOR THE WORK THAT I DO.

I HAD ALWAYS STUDIED THIS, I HAD SEEN THE HUMAN EFFECTS ON OTHER PEOPLE, BUT NOW, HAVING BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF THREATS AND HARASSMENT FOR THE PAST YEAR-PLUS, I KNOW THAT THESE CAMPAIGNS HAVE A REAL HUMAN EFFECT.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, WOULD YOU MIND TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THIS, IF YOU COULD JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THE FALLOUT HAS BEEN FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR FAMILY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A REALLY DIFFICULT YEAR.

AND I HAVE, TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE, TRIED TO SPEAK UP AS MUCH AS I CAN ABOUT IT, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERLINE, AGAIN, THAT I'M NOT JUST A CARICATURE ON THE INTERNET, I'M A WOMAN WHO HAS A FAMILY AND THIS HAS HAD AN ENORMOUS IMPACT ON MY FAMILY.

I'VE HAD A STALKER, WHERE I'VE HAD TO TAKE OUT A PROTECTIVE ORDER.

I'VE BEEN NAMED IN FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS THAT HAVE COST ME TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO DISMUSS.

I HAVE TAKEN 100 HOURS DEALING WITH CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES, JIM JORDAN'S WEAPONIZATION OF GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE, WHICH SUBPOENAED ME TO TESTIFY BEFORE THEM IN A CLOSED DOOR HEARING ABOUT MY ACTIVITIES WITH THE BOARD.

IT HAS REALLY TAKEN AWAY FROM MY ABILITY TO DO SUBSTANTIVE WORK IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY FIELD, BUT IT ALSO HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS BURDEN ON MY FAMILY IN TERMS OF OUR SECURITY.

IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE THE SAME.

WE STILL RECEIVE VIOLENT THREATS PRETTY REGULARLY, AND AS A RESULT OF ALL THIS, I JUST -- I DECIDED THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I'M NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT, AND I DECIDED TO FILE A SUIT AGAINST FOX NEWS FOR THEIR DEFAMATION OF ME, WHICH, IN MY OPINION, LED TO A LOT OF THE THREATS AND HARASSMENT THAT MY FAMILY HAS RECEIVED.

>> TALK ABOUT THAT, IF YOU WOULD.

WHAT IS THE -- WHAT IS THE ARGUMENT OF THIS DEFAMATION SUIT, WHICH I THINK YOU FILED IN MAY?

WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING ALLEGATION IN THE COMPLAINT?

>> SURE, SO, ACROSS FOX NEWS PROGRAMS FOR MANY MONTHS AFTER I RESIGNED, FOX NEWS PERSONALITIES LIED ABOUT ME AND MY BODY OF WORK.

THEY LIED ABOUT STATEMENTS THAT I WAS ALLEGED TO HAVE MADE AND DID ABSOLUTELY NO FACT-CHECKING WHERE THEY COULD HAVE PROVED THAT I DID INDEED NOT SAY THOSE THINGS.

AND THEY LIED ABOUT ME BEING FIRED WHEN, IN FACT, I RESIGNED, AND LIED ABOUT MY INTENTION IN JOINING THE GOVERNMENT.

AND, AGAIN, THIS HAS LED PEOPLE TO MAKE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST ME LUKE I COMMITTED TREASON, LIKE I WAS GOING AGAINST THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, THAT HAVE LED TO THINGS LIKE THIS STALKER, THAT HAVE LED TO ENORMOUS PROFESSIONAL CONSEQUENCES FOR ME, AS WELL, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MANY OF THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO DO IN ATTACKING RESEARCHERS AND GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WHO ARE TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING THAT I DID, STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRACY AND STANDING UP FOR THE TRUTH.

>> SO, THEY MAKE YOU CONTROVERSIAL AND THAT BECOMES AN EXCUSE FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE YOU UNTOUCHABLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE CONTROVERSIAL, EVEN THOUGH CONTROVERSY IS INVENTED TO BEGIN WITH.

>> YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

AND I'M HAPPY TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I'VE RISEN ABOVE THAT AND I'VE BEEN SURROUNDED BY GREAT FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE STOOD BY ME DURING ALL OF THIS, BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT WOULD BE MUCH EASIER TO THROW IN THE TOWEL AND SAY, WHY RESEARCH THIS STUFF, I'M JUST GOING TO GO LIVE IN THE WOODS SOMEWHERE.

I'M DETERMINED NOT TO LET THAT HAPPEN, BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THAT MIGHT JUST BE A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

AND CERTAINLY FOR CIVIL SERVANTS WHO MIGHT BE ON THE OTHER END OF LAWSUITS AND INVESTIGATIONS LIKE THIS, THEY DON'T WANT TO RISK THEIR CAREER, THEY DON'T WANT TO RISK THEIR LIVELIHOOD, THEY DON'T WANT TO RACE THEIR FAMILY'S SAFETY IN ORDER TO DO THIS WORK.

AND THAT'S THE CALCULATION.

>> YOU FILED A DEFAMATION LAWSUIT AGAINST FOX IN MAY, AND LAST MONTH, FOX NEWS FILED A MOTION TO DISMISS YOUR LAWSUIT STATING THAT, QUOTE, HOSTS AND GUESTS ON FOX EXERCISE THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO JOIN THE PUBLIC DEBATE AND VOICED THEIR OPINIONS AND PREDICTIONS THAT THE BOARD AND PLAINTIFF WOULD BE ARBITERS OF TRUTH AND CENSOR SPEECH.

THEY CALLED THE LAWSUIT A BROADSIDE ATTACK ON BEDROCK FIRST AMENDMENT PRINCIPLES.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO ARGUE THAT HERE, THAT'S WHAT COURTS ARE FOR.

SO, LET ME TURN TO THE REASON WE ASKED YOU TO JOIN US TODAY.

A NEWS EVENT.

LAST WEEK, A FEDERAL JUDGE IMPOSED AN INJUNCTION ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, RESTRICTING ITS ABILITY TO WORK WITH SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ENCOUNTERING ONLINE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND IT NAMED SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS THAT THEY SAY CANNOT MEET WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.

AND WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT AT LEAST ONE HIGH-LEVEL CONSULTATION WAS CANCELED AS A RESULT OF THIS.

COULD YOU JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT LED UP TO THIS INJUNCTION?

>> SURE.

WELL, I THINK, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THIS IS PART OF A BROADER CAMPAIGN TO INTIMIDATE DISINFORMATION RESEARCH AND COUNTER DISINFORMATION WORK IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND IN GOVERNMENT-ADJACENT AREAS, THE PUBLIC SECTOR, RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS, AHEAD OF THE 2024 ELECTION.

I ACTUALLY WAS NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT, IN MY OFFICIAL CAPACITY, WHEN IT WAS FIRST FILED LAST MAY, IN MAY 2022 AND I WAS REMOVED AFTER I RESIGNED.

HOWEVER, I WAS INCLUDED ON THE BASIS OF THOSE FALSE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT THE BOARD, THAT THE BOARD WAS MEANT TO CENSOR AMERICANS, AND THE FACT THAT I WAS INCLUDED, I THINK, SPEAKS TO THE ABSURDITY AND THE LACK OF SUBSTANCE BEHIND THIS LAWSUIT.

THIS LAWSUIT WOULD HAVE EVERYONE BELIEVE THAT ANY COOPERATION, ANY COMMUNICATION BETWEEN SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND THE GOVERNMENT AMOUNTS TO CENSORSHIP, BUT THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING, IN MANY CASES, WHEN IT IS FLAGGING CONTENT, IS FLAGGING CONTENT THAT IS ALREADY VIOLATING SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES' TERMS OF SERVICE.

WE MIGHT LIKE TO THINK THEY ARE FREE SPEECH ZONES, BUT WE SIGN UP TO RULES WHEN WE SIGN UP FOR THESE WEBSITES.

AND THOSE MIGHT BE RULES AGAINST DISINFORMATION, THEY MIGHT BE RULES AGAINST HATE SPEECH, CHILD TRAFFICKING, SEXUAL ABUSE MATERIAL, WHAT HAVE YOU.

WE SIGN UP TO THOSE RULES.

AND THE GOVERNMENT THEN, IF THEY FIND INSTANCES OF THAT CONTENT, THEY SEND IT TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.

THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ARE UNDER NO BURDEN TO ACTUALLY ACT ON THOSE REQUESTS, AND IN MANY CASES, BASED ON A STUDY CONDUCTED BY STANFORD UNIVERSITY, IN ABOUT 35% OF THOSE CASES, THEY TOOK ACTION, THE OTHER 65%, THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

AND A LOT OF TIMES, THE ACTION THAT THEY DID TAKE WAS JUST ADDING CONTEXT, NOT REMOVING THE CONTENT ITSELF.

SO, I THINK, AGAIN, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT COMMUNICATING BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES DOES NOT AMOUNT TO CENSORSHIP, AND FRANKLY, THE GOVERNMENT HAS A RIGHT TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT ITS POLICIES AND A DUTY TO PROTECT THE NATION, TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRATIC INFRASTRUCTURE, TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND PUBLIC SAFETY, AND SOMETIMES THAT AMOUNTS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES SPEAKING TO SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND SAYING, HEY, WE SEE A PROBLEM ON YOUR WEBSITE HERE.

>> IS THERE AN ANALOGY YOU COULD DRAW FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING HAD?

BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT SAY, GEE, I'M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA OF THE GOVERNMENT JOB OWNING THESE COMPANIES TO TELL THEM KIND OF WHAT TO DO.

SO, IS THERE AN ANALOGY THAT YOU COULD DRAW THAT MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO THE AVERAGE CITIZEN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I CAN GIVE YOU A CONCRETE EXAMPLE FROM THE 2020 ELECTION.

SO, IN 2020, WHEN THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT REALIZED IT HAD TO KIND OF CHANGE HOW IT WAS DOING ITS MESSAGING AND INFLUENCE OPERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AHEAD OF THE ELECTION, BECAUSE WE ALL GOT A LITTLE BIT MORE AWARE, RIGHT, THAT THIS SORT OF THING WAS HAPPENING, WHAT THEY DECIDED TO DO WAS HIRE AMERICAN JOURNALISTS WHO WERE TOTALLY UNWITTING, TO WRITE STORIES THAT WERE CRITICAL OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY FILED THEM UNDER THIS OUTLET CALLED PEACE DATA.

THE FBI FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS AND THEY TIPPED OFF TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND SAID, HEY, WE'VE GOT THE INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY, THAT INFAMOUS RUSSIAN TROLL FARM, THEY ARE PAYING AMERICAN JOURNALISTS TO DO THIS SORT OF INFLUENCE OPERATION.

WE THINK THIS MIGHT GO AGAINST YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE IN TERMS OF ELECTION INTERFERENCE.

AND THAT OPERATION WAS REALLY DIFFUSED BEFORE IT GOT OFF THE GROUND.

AND THAT WAS A GOOD THING FOR OUR ELECTIONS.

NOW, THE JUDGE IN THIS CASE HAS MADE SOME EXCEPTIONS FOR WHAT HE SAYS ARE ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND OTHER CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES, BUT HERE'S MY WORRY, KNOWING HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS, HAVING BEEN IN GOVERNMENT FOR A BIT MYSELF.

CIVIL SERVANTS ON THE OTHER END OF THIS INJUNCTION FINDING SOMETHING LIKE THE PEACE DATA OPERATION, WILL EITHER HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH A TON OF HOOPS TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES, THEREBY SLOWING IT DOWN, WHEN WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO WASTE IN A CONTENTIOUS ELECTION CYCLE, OR THEY WON'T MAKE THAT CONTACT AT ALL.

BECAUSE AS I SAID, THE POSSIBILITY THAT THEY MIGHT GET HIT WITH A LAWSUIT OR INVESTIGATION OR BECOME THE APEX OF A HARASSMENT CAMPAIGN, I MEAN, THOSE ARE REALLY HEAVY THINGS TO WEIGH FOR WORKING-LEVEL INDIVIDUALS.

AND SO, THIS IS REALLY PUTTING THE BRAKES ON A LOT OF IMPORTANT WORK THAT'S GOING TO BE HAPPENING IN THE NAME OF TRUTH AHEAD OF THE 2024 ELECTION.

>> THE INJUNCTION ALSO PROHIBITS GOVERNMENT AGENCIES FROM COLLABORATING WITH SOMETHING CALLED THE ELECTION INTEGRITY PARTNERSHIP, AND THAT'S AN ALLIANCE OF RESEARCHERS AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON.

WHY ARE THEY NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT?

>> WELL, THESE PARTICULAR RESEARCH ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN IN THE NEXUS OF A LOT OF CONSPIRACY THEORISTS FOR ALSO QUOTE UNQUOTE ENGAGING IN CENSORSHIP, WHEN ALL THEY DO IS ENGAGE IN OPEN SOURCE RESEARCH.

AGAIN, SOMETIMES FLAGGING UP TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES CONTENT THAT MIGHT DISSUADE PEOPLE FROM GOING TO VOTE, CONTENT THAT MIGHT TELL THEM DIFFERENT OR INCORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN TO VOTE.

ALL STUFF THAT WE SHOULD NOT WANT ON THE INTERNET, RIGHT?

AND YET THEY HAVE COME IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF MANY ON THE FAIR RIGHT IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE THEY CALL OUT THE DISINFORMATION COMING FROM THAT SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

AND FRANKLY, THERE'S DISINFORMATION COMING FROM ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND I WOULD CALL THEM PRETTY EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN CALLING THAT ALL OUT, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE IN OUR POLITICAL CLASS RIGHT NOW WHO DON'T WANT ANY SCRUTINY ON THEM.

AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, STANFORD, THESE BRILLIANT RESEARCHER THERE, WHO, I MIGHT ADD, THEY ARE LED BY, IN MOST PART, WOMEN, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT THEY ARE BEING CALLED OUT.

THESE WOMEN ARE DOING REALLY IMPORTANT WORK FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, AND THE IDEA THERE IN CALLING THEM OUT IN THIS INJUNCTION IS TO MAKE SURE THAT, AGAIN, THEY'RE MADE TOXIC, THEY ARE DROWNING IN PAPERWORK, AND NOT ABLE TO COLLABORATE WITH GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS IN THIS SPACE IN ORDER TO DO THIS IMPORTANT WORK.

>> WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT, THOUGH, YOU SAID, LOOK, DISINFORMATION HAS, YOU KNOW, EVEN BY THE FAKE FOREIGN ACTORS LIKE THE RUSSIANS, DISINFORMATION WAS DIRECTED AT BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, SO -- IF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES COULD BE ATTACKED IN THIS WAY, WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT IT?

WHY DOES THIS -- WHY ISN'T THERE SHARED SOCIAL INTEREST IN ADDRESSING THIS IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY?

I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I'M CONFUSED BY.

>> I'M CONFUSED IT BY, TOO.

I HAVE SAID IN EVERY CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY I'VE DONE, INCLUDING IN THE DEPOSITION THAT I DID IN APRIL THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS DOESN'T BENEFIT ANYBODY.

IT IS UN-AMERICAN.

AND FRANKLY, DISINFORMATION DOESN'T KNOW A POLITICAL PARTY.

ULTIMATELY, THE VICTIM IS OUR DEMOCRACY.

BUT I THINK WHAT MOTIVATES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING TO UNDERMINE, TO SILENCE, TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE LIKE ME, PEOPLE LIKE MY FORMER COLLEAGUES IN GOVERNMENT, PEOPLE LIKE MY COLLEAGUES AT STANFORD AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, IS THAT IT REALLY GETS THEM POPULAR SUPPORT WHEN THEY HAVE AN ENEMY TO MOBILIZE AGAINST.

AND I KNOW VERY, VERY INTIMATELY WHAT THAT IS LIKE ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

AND AGAIN, THERE'S JUST NO REGARD FOR INDIVIDUAL'S HUMANITY HERE.

BECAUSE IT PLAYS REALLY WELL WITH THE BASE, AND IT SHORES UP THEIR POWER FOR THE NEXT ELECTION CYCLE.

AND I THINK THAT IS, AGAIN, A REALLY FRIGHTENING PROSPECT FOR THE UNITED STATES, AS WE HEAD INTO THIS ELECTION SEASON.

>> I DO WANT TO MENTION THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS APPEALED THE JUDGE'S DECISION, THIS INJUNCTION, BUT WHAT ARE YOU MOST WORRIED ABOUT GOING FORWARD?

>> WELL, THE LEGAL SYSTEM TAKES A LONG TIME, RIGHT?

SO, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THIS PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION WILL BE UPHELD WHILE THE JUDGE ON THE FIFTH CIRCUIT DECIDES WHETHER OR NOT TO NARROW THE SCOPE OF THE INJUNCTION, TO OVERTURN IT ALTOGETHER OR TO UPHOLD IT, AND AS THAT HAPPENS, WE'RE GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, BUT MORE BROADLY, I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE DISCOURSE IN THE COUNTRY, AGAIN, THAT INDIVIDUALS ARE BEINGVILLE NICED FOR DOING THEIR JOBS.

FOR, YOU KNOW, PURSING ACADEMIC RESEARCH, IN SOME CASES, AND I'M SORRIES THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISSUADED, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, WOMEN, PEOPLE OF COLOR, WHO ARE GOING TO BE DISSUADED FROM PUBLIC SERVICE, WHO ARE GOING TO BE DISSUADED FROM PURSUING CAREERS IN PUBLIC LIFE, BECAUSE OF THIS WEAPONIZATION OF HATRED, THE POLITICIZATION OF, YOU KNOW, BASIC FACTS THAT CAN COME FROM ANYBODY AT ANY TIME.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY BALD FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE SHOULD WANT, YOU KNOW, A DISCOURSE AND A GOVERNMENT THAT IS BROADLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE POPULATION AND THAT, YOU KNOW, REPRESENTS MOSTLY DIVERSE VIEWS.

AND INSTEAD WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY A QUASHING OF ANY SORT OF CRITIQUE AND DISSENT AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING TO MAKE REALLY DIFFICULT CALCULATIONS ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF THEIR LOVED ONES SIMPLY FOR DOING THEIR JOB.

>> AND, OF COURSE, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO, ON THE RIGHT WHO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS BEING DONE TO THEM.

I MEAN, THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE BEING KIND OF VILIFIED AND DEMONIZED AND -- FOR EXPRESSING THEIR BELIEFS ABOUT GENDER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT BOOKS SHOULD BE TAUGHT.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT?

HOW DO YOU PUT THOSE THOUGHTS TOGETHER?

>> I ALWAYS SAY THAT WE SHOULDN'T ENDORSE THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOR, NO MATTER WHO IS EXPRESSING THEMSELVES, NO MATTER WHAT POLITICAL OPINION PEOPLE HAVE.

I WOULDN'T WANT ANYONE ON THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT ME AND MY FAMILY HAVE GONE THROUGH, AND I REALLY SINCERELY MEAN THAT.

I THINK WE ALL NEED TO TONE IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT, AND TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THOSE DEEPLY AND TRULY HELD BELIEFS, WITHOUT MAKING THREATS, WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, JUST SLINGING VITRIOL.

THAT'S NOT WHAT AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

AND ULTIMATELY, I DO BELIEVE THAT OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO SET THE TENOR OF THAT DISCOURSE.

AND TOO OFTEN LATELY WE HAVE SEEN OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS SETTING THE DISCOURSE IN A VERY WORRISOME DIRECTION.

>> YOU'VE DESCRIBED A VERY DISTURBING SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND POTENTIAL THREATS.

IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOU HOPE IN THIS MOMENT?

>> I INTEND TO KEEP DOING THIS WORK, AND I KNOW MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES IN THIS SPHERE FEEL THE SAME WAY.

THIS IS TOO IMPORTANT TO THROW IN THE TOWEL ON.

AND I'M NOT SURE HOW THINGS COULD GET WORSE, SO WE ALL HOPE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE BETTER AND WE INTEND TO KEEP SPEAKING OUR TRUTH TO KEEP DOING THE RESEARCH AND SHOWING OUR WORK, THAT SHOWS HOW THESE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS WORK, AND TO ATTEMPT TO PUT THE PIECES BACK TOGETHER.

UNFORTUNATELY, GOVERNMENT KIND OF HAS ITS HANDS TIED RIGHT NOW, AND WE'RE SEEING SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ROLLING BACK THEIR POLICIES WITH REGARD TO THE U.S. ELECTION, BUT CIVIL SOCIETY AND ACTIVISTS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH, SO, BETWEEN THE CIVIL SOCIETY FOLKS AND THE JOURNALISTS, I THINK WE CAN CONTINUE TO UPHOLD THE TRUTH NOW AND IN THE YEARS TO COME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO CELEBRATE THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND WORK OF AUTHOR MILAN CONDERO, WHO DIED AT 94.

MOST FAMOUS FOR HIS NOVEL "THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTENS OF BEING."

HE WAS A LEADING VOICE OF HIS GENERATION, CALLING FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND EQUAL RIGHTS DURING THE PRAGUE SPRING IN THE LATE 1960s.

A TIME OF POLITICAL LIBERALIZATION.

THAT WAS SQUASHED BY THE SOVIET INVASION.

HIS BOOKS WERE BANNED AND LED HIM TO ULTIMATELY FLEE TO FRANCE, WHERE HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

THE LIBRARY SECTION WAS INAUGURATED LAST APRIL IN HIS HOMETOWN.

WHAT A LIFE WELL-LIVED.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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