July 18, 2023

>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR &COMPANY.

"HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

DONALD TRUMPAND THEINVESTIGATION TO OVERTURN THE2020 ELECTION.

> >> AND A U. S. SOLDIER ISBELIEVED TO BE DETAINED INNORTH KOREA.

I WILL TALK TO SECRETARY OFDEFENSE: ABOUT THAT ANDABOUTHOW DEFENSE IMPACTS SECURITY.

>> WE MUST TALK ABOUT SECURITYFROM RUSSIAN MADNESS.

>> A BARRAGE OF AIRSTRIKES.

RUSSIA'S AGGRESSION ANDITSGLOBAL IMPACT AGAIN UNDER THESPOTLIGHT.

I AMJOINED BYFOREIGN MINISTERALINA BOLTON IN, JUST A FEWMONTHS BEFORE OUR COUNTRY JOINNATO.

>> WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT WASEFFECTIVELYTHE BIGGESTPONZISCHEME IN HISTORY.

>> ACTOR AND AUTHOR BENMcKENZIE TALKS ABOUT THE CRYPTOWORLD AND WHY IT IS RIFEWITHFRAUD.

>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADEPOSSIBLE BYJIM ATWOOD ANDLESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. GLESSNER.

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>> WELCOME TO THEPROGRAM,EVERYONE.

I AM SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANEAMANPOUR.

DONALDTRUMP'SLEGAL WOES JUSTGOT A LOT WORSE.

HE HAS INDICATED THAT HEEXPECTS TO BE ARRESTED AS PARTOF THE INVESTIGATION INTO THEJANUARY 6th AND ELECTIONINTERFERENCE.

IN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST, THEFORMER PRESENCE THAT HE HASBEEN INFORMED BY SPECIALCOUNSEL JACK SMITH THAT HE IS ATARGET OF THE INVESTIGATION.

A REMINDER, IT WOULD BE TRUMPLS THIRD INDICTMENT FORCRIMINAL OFFENSES.

JESSICA, GOOD TOSEE YOU.

SO WE LEARNED ABOUT THIS THESAME WAY WE LEARNED ABOUTTHEEARLIER LETTER THAT ULTIMATELYLED TO THE INDICTMENT FROM JACKSMITH'S OFFICE, AND THAT ISFROM THEFORMER PRESIDENT'STRUTH SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTHIMSELF.

HERE'S WHAT HE WROTE.

JACK SMITH --I WILL NOT GETINTO HOW HE DESCRIBED HIM --STATED I AM A TARGET OF THEJURY INVESTIGATION AND HASGIVEN ME A VERY SHORT FOUR DAYSTO REPORT WHICH ALWAYS MEANS ANARREST AND INDICTMENT.

IS THAT WHAT WE SHOULD EXPECTFROM THE DAYS TO COME?

>> YES.

I THINK THIS WAS A VERYSIGNIFICANT EVENT BECAUSE ITSIGNIFIES IT IS VERY LIKELYTHAT MR. TRUMP WILL BE INDICTEDIN CONNECTIONWITH HISEFFORTSTO INTERFERE AND OVERTURN THE2020 ELECTION AND POSSIBLY INCONNECTION WITH A JANUARY 26thRIGHT AT THE CAPITOL.

THIS IS A LETTER THAT THEDEPARTMENT WOULD SEND TO ATARGET OF AN INVESTIGATION ATTHE END OF THE INVESTIGATIONTO INDICATE THAT THEPROSECUTORS THINK THEY HAVEENOUGH EVIDENCE TO INDICT.

THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SENDUP LETTERS BUT THEY OFTEN DO TOGIVE THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TOAPPEAR BEFORE THE GRAND JURY TOGIVE THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY IFTHEY WISH.

TARGETS FREQUENTLY DO NOTAPPEAR BEFORE THE GRAND JURYBECAUSE THEY WOULD BE UNDEROATH.

THEY COULD BE SUBJECT TO ANADDITIONAL CHARGE FOR PERJURYAND BECAUSE ANYTHING THEYCOULDSAY COULD BE USED AGAINST THEM.

I DO NOT EXPECT THAT MR. TRUMPWILL AVAIL FROM THE OPPORTUNITYTO APPEAR BEFORE THE GRANDJURY.

>> SO THIS WILL BE THE SECONDFEDERAL INDICTMENT.

THE FIRST WAS IN NEW YORK STATEFOR HUSH MONEY PAYMENTS.

THIS IS THE SECOND IF WE DO ENDUP SEEING ONE FROM THE SPECIALPROSECUTOR JACK SMITH'S OFFICE.

WE KNOW THE FIRST ONE HAD TODEAL WITH THE CLASSIFIEDDOCUMENTS THAT THE FORMERPRESIDENT TALK WITH HIMILLEGALLY TO MAR-A-LAGO.

THIS ONE, I KNOW THAT MANYLEGALEXPERTS WERE NOT SO SUREAS TO WHETHER WE WOULD SEE ANINDICTMENT IN THIS CASE BECAUSEIT WAS EXPLAINED TO BE MOREDIFFICULT TOPROVE INTENT INHIS ROLE IN OVERTURNING THE2020 ELECTION AND ATTEMPTING TOOVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

DOES THIS SURPRISE YOU?

>> I AMNOT SURPRISED.

THIS IS CERTAINLY A MORECOMPLICATED CHARGE TO BRING ANDTO PROVE.

BECAUSE IT IS A MORE SPRAWLINGSET OF EVIDENCE, WE WILL WAITTO SEE IF CHARGES ARE BROUGHTAND HOW THEY WILLBE DRAWN.

I DO EXPECT WE WILL SEE ACOMPETITOR SEE CHARTS THAT WILLENCOMPASS EFFORTS TO COME UPWITH A SUBSTITUTE SLATE OFELECTORS AND ALSO TOTHREATEN VICE PRESIDENT PENCEAND PERSUADE HIM TO DELAY THECERTIFICATIONPROCESS ANDALLOWTHE ALTERNATIVE OR FALSE SLATEOF ELECTORS TO BE PRESENTED TOCONGRESS.

BUT THE INDICTMENT ALSO COULDENCOMPASS PRESIDENT TRUMP'SEFFORTS TO INCITE A RIOT AT THECAPITAL WHICH WOULD PRESENTUNIQUELY DIFFICULT ANDCHALLENGING ISSUES WITH RESPECTTO THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

SO I AM WAITING TO SEE HOWTHESE CHARGES, IF THEYAREBROUGHT, HOW BROADLY THEY AREDRAWN.

HOW AMBITIOUS THE SPECIALCOUNSEL WILL BE WITH RESPECT TOTHE JIM RICE 60 VENT THEMSELVESAND THE RIOT.

BUT THIS CERTAINLYWILL BE A MORE COMPLEX ANDCHALLENGING CASE, I BELIEVE, TOPROSECUTETHAN THEMAR-A-LAGOCASE INVOLVING THE DOCUMENTS.

>> WE KNOW AT LEAST TWO GRANDJOYCE HAVE BEEN HEARING MATTERSRELATED TO THE FORMERPRESIDENT'S EFFORTS TO OVERTURNTHE 2020 ELECTION.

IT APPEARS PROSECUTORS AREWANTING TO HEAR FROM TRUMP LSINNER CIRCLE.

JERK HAD TESTIFIED BEFORE AGRAND JURY AND THATFORMER MAYOR AND TRUMP ATTORNEYRUDY GIULIANI ALSO HAD APPEAREDBEFORE THIS GRAND JURY.

TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCEOFTHAT.

>> WELL, IT IS VERY OFTEN THECASE THAT PROSECUTORS WILL WORKTHEIR WAY UP WHEN INVESTIGATINGA CONSPIRACY.

THEY WILL START WITH PEOPLELOWER DOWN AND WORKED THEIR WAYTO THE TOP TRYING TO DETERMINETHE INFORMATION THAT MOSTCLOSELY POINTS TO THE INTENT OFTHE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THEORGANIZATION.

THEN IN THIS CASE, THAT WOULDBE THE FORMER PRESIDENT ATTHETOP.

SO INVESTIGATORS ARE TRYING TOGET AS MUCH EVIDENCE AS THEYCANABOUT JUST TRUMPINVOLVEMENT AND FACTUALLY WHATHE WAS DOING AND CRITICALLYWHAT HIS INTENT WAS.

DID HE KNOW HE HAD LOST THEELECTION AND DID HE --TO WHATEXTENT WAS HE TRYING TO,KNOWINGLY, FOR EXAMPLE,THREATEN PEOPLE IN THE STATESTHAT HE WAS CONTESTING, TOCOMEUP WITH A FALSE SLATE OFELECTORS KNOWING THAT HE HADLOST IN THOSE STATES AND WHATWAS HIS INTENT WITH RESPECT TOVICE PRESIDENT TRUMP --VICEPRESIDENT PENCE AND WITHRESPECT TO THE PEOPLE WHOAREPRESENT AT THE CAPITAL ONJANUARY 6th, WHAT WAS HISINTENT?

WHAT WAS THEIR ACTIONS AS THEYGOT READY TO STRUM THECAPITAL?

>> AS WITH SO MANY THINGSRELATED TO THE FORMERPRESIDENT, THIS TOO WOULD BEUNPRECEDENTED.

NOW, THE FORMERU.

S. PRESIDENTFACING TWO FORMER INDICTMENTS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHETHER WESHOULD EXPECT TO SEE JACK SMITHONCE AGAIN SPEAK TO THE U. S. PUBLIC ONTHIS MATTER?

HE HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TOREALLY GET ON THE RECORD ATALL, AND WE HAVE NOT SEEN MUCHOF HIM.

BUT HE DID FEEL THE NEED TOADDRESS THE PUBLIC AFTER THEFIRST INDICTMENT.

DO YOU EXPECT THE SAME TOFOLLOWTHIS TIME?

>> YES.

I EXPECT WE WOULD HEAR FROM HIMIN CONNECTION TO JANUARY 6thAND THE2020 ELECTION.

I THINK HE WOULD FOLLOW THEPRECEDENT HE SAT WITH RESPECTTO THE MAR-A-LAGO INVESTIGATIONAND CHARGES TO COME BEFORE THEAMERICAN PEOPLE AND BRIEFLYPRESENTWHAT THECHARGES AREAND WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT TOBRING THEM.

THIS CASE IF IT IS BROUGHT,ASSUMING IT IS BROUGHT, ITREALLY GOES TO THE HEART OF OURDEMOCRACY AND THE THREAT THATTHE FORMER PRESIDENTPOSES TODEMOCRACY AT THE VERY MOMENTWHEN HE IS ON THE CUSP OFSEEKING THE PRESIDENCY AGAIN.

I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT UPONTHE SPECIAL COUNSEL TO, AGAIN,BRIEFLY EXPLAIN WHAT THECHARGES ARE, THEIRSIGNIFICANCE, AND WHY IT WASIMPORTANT TO PURSUE THEM.

I THINK WE WILL HEAR FROM HIM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOURTIME.

OBVIOUSLY, WE WILL CONTINUE TOFOLLOW THE STORY FOR OURVIEWERS.

LET US CONTINUE THISCONVERSATION WITH SOMEOTHERNEWS-MAKING HEADLINES TODAY.

> >> A U. S. ARMY SOLDIERSBELIEVED TO BE IN CUSTODY ANDWITH KOREAIN THE DEMILITARIZEDZONE.

LIAM COEN WAS A REPUBLICANSECRETARY OF DEFENSE UNDERPRESIDENT BILL CLINTON AND HEJOINS ME NOW UNDER WASHINGTON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHERE TOBEGIN.

LET US START WITH THE NEWS THATFORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP EXPECTSTO BE INDICTED.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO HIS OWNPOST ONSOCIAL MEDIA.

RELATED TO EFFORTS, THEINVESTIGATION INTO EFFORTS TOOVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> WELL, AS YOU HAVE INDICATED,THIS WOULD BE UNPRECEDENTED BUTI THINK MR. TRUMP WASUNPRECEDENTED IN HIS ACTIONSTHROUGHOUT HIS FOURYEAR TERM.

IF THIS IS GOING TO BE BROUGHT,AND WE ARE SPECULATING ANINDICTMENT BROUGHT, ITREAFFIRMS WE ARE COMMITTED TOTHE RULE OF LAW.

IT WAS A GREAT JUSTICE WHOONCESAID, GOVERNMENT TEACHES THEWHOLE PEOPLE BY ITS EXAMPLE.

AND WHEN GOVERNMENT BECOMES ALAW BREAKER, IT BREEDS CONTEMPTFORTHE LAW.

IT INVITES EVERY MAN --AND IWOULD SAY WOMAN --TO BE A LAWUNTO HIM OR HERSELF.

IT INVITES AND BREEDS ANARCHY.

AND WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUTHERE, AND GENERAL KELLY MOSTRECENTLY SAID A TERM FORPRESIDENTTRUMP --A RE-ELECTION --WOULD BE CHAOTIC.

IT WOULD BREED ANARCHY.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TOBECONCERNED ABOUT.

I DO NOTKNOW WHAT THE CHARGEIS GOING TO BE BUT IT WAS ANASSAULT UPON OUR DEMOCRACY.

IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO IMPOSE ADICTATORSHIP, ABANDON THE RULEOF LAW, AND DO EVERYTHING BYSHEER POWER.

THAT IS A FASCIST FORM OFGOVERNMENT AND FOR MR. TRUMPAND HIS MOST RECENT STATEMENTSHAS SAID HE WANTS TO CLEAN OUTEVERYONE OUT OF WASHINGTON WHODOES NOT SUPPORT HIM.

IT MEANS ELIMINATING ALL OF OURSTATE DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL,MILITARY PERSONNEL, SO HE CANBE THE DICTATORAND CHIEF.

I THINK IT IS A VERY, VERYDANGEROUS CONCEPT FOR ANYONE TOPROPOSE, BUT APPARENTLY HE ISCOMMITTED TO THAT.

>> GIVEN WHAT YOU HAVE JUSTLAID OUT, ON TOP OF NEWS ANDTHE INDICTMENT, WHAT DOESIT SAYABOUT THE PARTY AND THE COUNTRYAS HERE RIGHT NOW IS THEFRONTRUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICANNOMINATION FOR PRESIDENT.

>> FOR ME, IT SAYS THAT THEREPUBLICAN PARTY NO LONGERBELIEVES IN THE RULE OF LAW.

IT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BYTHEM OVER AND OVER AGAINREFUSING TO HOLD HIMACCOUNTABLE, REFUSING TOSAYTHIS PAST ELECTION OF PRESIDENTBIDEN WAS NOT STOLEN.

IN FACT, HE WAS TRYING TO STEALTHE ELECTION.

BUT THEIR REFUSAL TO CRITICIZETHE FORMER PRESIDENT FORABIDING BYTHE TRADITION OFPEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER,THAT UNDERMINES EVERYTHING THATWESTAND FOR.

YOU KNOW, OUR FOUNDING FATHERSSAID THAT SOMEONE MUST BEENTRUSTED WITH POWER.

BUT NOBODY CAN BE TRUSTEDWITHPOWER.

AND THAT IS THE REASON THEY SETUP ADIVISION OF AUTHORITY.

A SEPARATION OF POWERS.

SO NO ONE PERSON, NO ONE MAN,ORWOMAN, COULD DICTATE THEPOLICIES UNRESTRAINED ALL BYHIMSELF.

I THINK THATIS ATHREAT TO OURCOUNTRY.

IF WE NO LONGER BELIEVE IN THERULE OF LAW, WE NO LONGERBELIEVE IN THE ROLE OF POWER,THEN WE WILL NO LONGER BE ABLETO HOLD OURSELVES OUT AS THELEADER OF THE FREE WORLDBECAUSE THIS WOULD NOT BE ADEMOCRACY.

>> DONALD TRUMP IS FLIRTINGWITH THE IDEA OF DOING AWAYWITH ANY CHECKS AND BALANCES IFHE DOES GET ANOTHER TERM ASPRESIDENT.

LET'S TURN TO THE OTHERBREAKING NEWS STORY WE AREFOLLOWING.

> >> THAT IS A U. S. SOLDIERDETAINED AFTER CROSSING THEDMC.

THE U. S. MILITARY SAID, IT ISWORKINGWITH THE NORTH KOREANMILITARY TO TRY TO RESOLVE THISINCIDENT.

A LOT WE STILL DO NOT KNOW.

HERE'S WHAT WE DO NOT DO AMILITARY SPOKESPERSON.

HE SAID THE SOLDIER CROSSED THELINE WILLFULLY AND WITHOUTAUTHORIZATION.

WE ALSO HAVE REPORTING THATTHIS PARTICULAR SOLDIERHADFACED DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS BYTHE U. S. MILITARY AND WAS SETTO BE SENT BACK TO THE UNITEDSTATES.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THISDEVELOPMENT, AND, I THINK, FORA LOT OF US, IT WAS A BITSURPRISING TO SEE THAT THE U. S. MILITARY WOULD BE WORKINGTOGETHER WITH THE NORTH KOREANMILITARY OVER THIS INCIDENT.

>> WELL, IT TELLS YOU HOWDESPERATE HE MUST BE TO SEEKACCOUNTABILITY FOR HIS ACTIONSBY AVOIDING IT AND GOING INTOONE OF THE MOST SEALEDCOUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TO TRYTOESCAPE FROMTHE UNITEDSTATES OF AUTHORITY INTO NORTHKOREA.

THAT IS QUITE A BOLD, AND, ITHINK, BIZARRE ACTION ONHISPART TO THINK YOU WOULD FINDFREEDOM FROM AUTHORITY IN NORTHKOREA AS A OPPOSED TO BEINGACCOUNTABLE HERE IN THE UNITEDSTATES.

I DONOT KNOW.

I DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT HISSTABILITY AND ACTIONS AND WHATHE WOULD SEEK TO DO THAT, BUTAS YOU POINT OUT, IT IS REALLYQUITE INTERESTING THAT WE AREWORKING TOGETHER WITH NORTHKOREAN OFFICIALS TO TRY TORESOLVE IT.

>> IS THIS A POSITION AT ALLTHAT YOU SEE NORTH KOREA COULDVIEW THIS AS ANY SORT OFLEVERAGE AND CREATE A HOSTAGESITUATION?

HOLDING A U. S. SOLDIER DESPITETHE FACT THAT HE WILLFULLYENTERED THE COUNTRY?

>> I DO NOT THINK THAT WOULD BEA SITUATION WHERE THE UNITEDSTATES --WE OBVIOUSLY WOULDLIKE TO GET HIM BACK.

HE WAS NOT WEARING THE UNIFORMAT THE TIME.

HE WAS TRAVELING AS A VISITOROR TOURIST OR SUCH PART OF THATAREAIS OPENED AND PROMOTED ASA TOURIST ATTRACTION.

WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHY HEWOULD DO THIS, BUT IF IT WAS TOESCAPE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HISACTIONS AS A SOLDIER, THENI DONOT THINK THE UNITED STATES ISGOING TO BE PRESSING AS HARD ASIF HE WERE INNOCENT OF HISACTIONS OR HAD MADE A MISTAKE,DID IT ACCIDENTALLY.

WE WILL TRY TO GETHIM BACK,BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEETHAT NORTH KOREANS USE AS MUCHLEVERAGE IN MY OPINION.

> >> LET US TURN TO WASHINGTONWHERE THE SENATE WILL STARTDEBATE ON THE DEFENSEAUTHORIZATION ACT.

WHATEVER BILL THEY END UPPASSING IT WILL BE DIFFERENTTHANTHE BILL PASSED IN THEREPUBLICAN CONTROLLED HOUSEWERE CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERSREALLY ADDED SEVERAL AMENDMENTSTHAT WERE CENTERED ON ABORTION,TRANSGENDER RIGHTS, ANDINCLUSION INITIATIVES.

AS A FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY,DOES IT SURPRISE YOU THAT THESEISSUES ARE JEOPARDIZING FUNDINGFOR THE U. S. MILITARY?

>> IT IS ALSO UNPRECEDENTEDTHAT YOU WOULDHAVE THISINJECTION OF POLITICS INTO ANAUTHORIZATION BILL WHICHPROVIDESFOR THE AUTHORIZEDFUNDING OF OUR ENTIRE MILITARYOPERATIONS.

TO ME, IT IS AGREAT DISSERVICETO THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO WEARTHE UNIFORM AND SACRIFICE FORUS TO INTRODUCE THIS KIND OFINSTABILITY IN THE PROCESS BYDOING THIS.

IT IS AGREAT DISSERVICE.

THE MILITARY DEPENDS --OURFINEST FIGHTING FORCE DEPENDSON ROTATION.

WE NEED TO ROTATE THE RIGHTPEOPLE INTO THE RIGHT POSITIONSAT THE RIGHT TIME.

THIS IS NOW CALCULATED TOINTERRUPTTHAT PROCESS.

AND SO DOING IT FOR A POLITICALOBJECTIVE --I DO NOT RECALLANY TIME HISTORICALLY --CERTAINLY MY TIME INOFFICE --THAT WE WOULD HAVE A SENATORHOLD UP THE ENTIRE PROMOTION OFSOME 200+, NOT TOMENTION THEMARINE CORPS FOR THE FIRST TIMEIN OUR HISTORY --HOLD THESE UPTO ACHIEVE A POLITICALOBJECTIVE HERE.

IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

IF I WERE IN THE SENATE, IWOULD BE ASKING THE MAJORITYLEADER TO NOT HAVE AN AUGUSTRECESS.

GET HERE.

FINISH ALL THE WORK.

DO NOT SEND ANYBODY HOME UNTILTHEY FINISH ALL THE WORK THATNEEDS TOBE DONE.

THIS REQUIRES EXTRAORDINARYACTION BY THE SENATELEADERSHIP.

REPUBLICANS AS WELL.

BUT, CERTAINLY IF DEMOCRATS ARETHE MAJORITY HERE, THEY HAVEGOT TO MOVE THIS.

THEY WILL TAKE THEM OUT ONE BYONE IF NECESSARY BUT NOBODY ISGOING HOME TO CAMPAIGN UNTIL WEARE DONE WITH THE JOB WE WERESENT HERE TO DO.

THAT IS TO PROTECT THE AMERICANPEOPLE WHAT THE DEFENSE OFOURCOUNTRY.

>> YOU MENTION SENATOR TOMMYTUBERVILLE WHO INITIALLY THELEADING PERSON THERE, THE SOLEPERSON WHO IS HOLDING UPPENTAGON OBLIGATIONS AND ISBLOCKING THEM OVER WHAT HEVIEWS AS UNLAWFUL LAWS THATWOULD PERMIT FROMTHE MILITARYWOMEN TO TRAVEL TO A STATE TORECEIVE ABORTION CARE ANDHEALTHCARE INSTATES WHEREABORTIONS ARE ILLEGAL AND THEYWOULD PROVIDE FUNDING FOR THETRAVEL.

WE SHOULD NOTE WHAT ISIMPORTANT HERE AND WHATDEMOCRATS ARE SAYING.

THE PROCESS, THE PROCEDUREITSELF, WOULD NOT BEFUNDED.

NONETHELESS, WE SEEREPUBLICANS, INCLUDINGTUBERVILLE, TO REMAIN STRONG TOHIS CONVICTIONS AND SAY HE WILLNOT BUDGE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE FACTTHAT THIS ISSUE ALONE, WHICHFOR THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANSBELIEVE THAT IT SHOULDBE LEGALOR AT LEAST UP TO THE STATESTODECIDE.

THIS ISSUE HAS REALLY HIJACKEDANY DECISION-MAKING SO THAT ITCAN MOVE FORWARD INTHEMILITARY.

>> IT IS REALLY QUITEINTERESTING BECAUSE THEREPUBLICANPARTY CONTINUESTOSAY THIS ISSUE SHOULD AT LEASTBE DECIDED BY THE STATES.

THAT INDIVIDUAL STATES CAN MAKETHEIR JUDGMENTS.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT BUTTHAT IS THE POSITION OF THEPARTY, BARRING A NATIONAL BANON ABORTIONS.

IN THE MEANTIME, WE HAVE ONESENATOR SAYING WHAT HE BELIEVESTO BE UNLAWFUL.

WE HAVE 99 OTHER ONCE YOU DONOT SHARE THAT AGREEMENT BUTMANY OF THEM MIGHT.

WITH THAT SEPARATE AND APART,THEY SHOULD OFFERAN AMENDMENTTO A BILL AS IT COMES TO THEFLOOR.

BUT TO PUT A HOLD ON ALL OF THENOMINATIONS, SEVERALHUNDREDNOW --NOW, ALL THAT ISHAPPENING IN THE STATEDEPARTMENT AS WELL.

SO WE HAVE TWO OR THREESENATORS HOLDING UP THEPROMOTIONOF OUR TOP PEOPLEINTO TOP POSITIONS TO ACHIEVE APOLITICAL OBJECTIVE.

IF THAT IS WHAT WE ARE COMINGTO, I THINK IT IS GOING TOUNDERMINED CONFIDENCE WITHINTHE MILITARY AND THE STATEDEPARTMENT.

IT WILL SEND THE SIGNAL THATONE OR TWO SENATORS OR AHANDFUL OF THEM CAN JEOPARDIZETHE ENTIREPROCESS BY WHICHPEOPLE ARE DEDICATED TO SERVETHE PUBLIC.

THEY ARE NOW BEING PUT INPLACES THEY CANNOT PROCEED.

THEY CANNOT PROGRESS.

THEY MAY DECIDE JUST TO GETOUT.

AND THAT IS NOTCONDUCIVE TOPRODUCING AND MAINTAINING THESTRONGEST MILITARY IN THEWORLD.

>> GIVEN THAT THIS IS AVOLUNTARY MILITARY, DEMOCRATSARE SAYING THAT THESE IDEASFROM REPUBLICANS, SPECIFICALLYOVER THE ISSUES OF ABORTIONWILL HURT RECRUITMENT.

LISTEN TO WHAT HAKEEM JEFFRIESSAID ONTHISISSUE.

>> IN A SOCIETY, YOU HAVE GOTTO HAVE ALL HANDS ON DECK.

EVERY CORNER OF SOCIETY SHOULDFEEL WELCOME INTHE MILITARY.

WE HAVE TO RECRUIT FROM EVERYSEGMENTOF SOCIETY.

IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT WEARE PREPARED, IN ANINCREASINGLY DANGEROUS WORLD.

>> DO YOUAGREE WITHREPRESENTATIVE JEFFRIES?

DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD IMPACTRECRUITMENT POTENTIALLY?

>> I THINKIT COULD.

I DO NOT KNOW IF IT WILL BUT ITCERTAINLY COULD.

WE HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER THEHISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAD APOLICY OF SEGREGATION,RACIAL OR RACIST SEGREGATIONFOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

IT WASNOT UNTIL HARRY TRUMANPULLED OUT HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

WE'RE GOING TODESEGREGATEBECAUSE THEY CAN SERVE THECOUNTRY WELL.

WE HAD A SIMILAR ISSUE --NOTSIMILAR --BUT A COMPARABLEISSUE INTERMS OFGAYS IN THEMILITARY.

COULD THEY TAKE THE MISSION?

WE HAVE DIVERSITY.

WE HAVE DIFFERENT GENDERS ANDGENDERIDENTIFICATION.

WE BRING THEM INTO OUR MILITARYAND SAY WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLETO TRAIN OURSELVES TO WORKTOGETHER TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUDO NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINSTSOMEBODY BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE,ETHNICITY, RELIGION, ORGENDERIDENTIFICATION.

WE NEED TO HAVE EVERYBODYINVOLVED WAS PREPARED TOSACRIFICE THEIR LIVES AND MAKETHE KIND OF SACRIFICES IN THEIRDISCIPLINE AND THEIR HABITS ANDTHEN THEIR HABITS TO CARRY OUTTHE MISSION.

IF THERE WERE A QUESTION ABOUTREADINESS, IF THE FACT THATTHERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOTCONTRIBUTING TO READINESS, LETTHE AMERICAN MILITARYLEADERSHIP COME FORWARD AND SAYTHIS IS NOT WORKING.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY WOULD SAYTHAT.

PUT THEM UNDER OATH THAT THEYARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

RATHER THAN HAVE A FEW PEOPLEHOLD IT UP AND PREVENTPEOPLEFROM PROGRESSING AND FULFILLINGTHEIR MISSIONS ON BEHALF OF THEAMERICAN PEOPLE.

I THINK WE DESERVE THAT.

I THINK THOSE IN THE MILITARYDESERVE THAT.

IF IT IS ANY SIGNAL YOU NOT BEJUDGED ON YOUR MERIT, ON WHATYOU CAN DO, NOT ON WHOYOU ARE ,BUT WHAT YOU DO ON BEHALF OFTHE MILITARY.

IT SENDS A SIGNAL YOU'RE NOTEQUAL AND YOU'RE NOT WELCOMEAND THAT IS NOT HEALTHY FORTHIS COUNTRY.

>> WELL, CLEARLY OUR FRIENDSAND ENEMIES AROUND THE WORLDARE PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TOWHAT ISTRANSPIRING HERE.

AND, AS YOU SAID, THE STATE OFTHE STRONGEST MILITARY ISREALLY AT A BLOCK AT THIS POINTIN TERMS OF GETTING FUNDINGOVER THESE PARTICULAR TYPES OFISSUES.

WILLIAM COHEN, THANK YOU SOMUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE APPRECIATE IT, MR. SECRETARY.

> >> LET US TURN TO THE WAR INUKRAINE, AND TO RUSSIAN FORCESLAUNCHING A BARRAGE OFAIRSTRIKES OVER NIGHT.

THEY SAY IT IS INRETALIATIONFOR KEEPS ATTACK ON THESYMBOLIC AND STRATEGIC CRIMEANBRIDGE.

MEANWHILE, RUSSIA HAS PULLEDOUT OF THE BLACK SEA GREEN DEALWHICH ALLOWS UKRAINE TO EXPORTGRAIN SAFELY.

THE ONE SAYS, MILLIONSOFPEOPLE FACING HUNGER AROUND THEWORLD WILL PAY THE PRICE.

NATO'S NEWEST MEMBER FINLANDHAS STRONGLY CONDEMNED THEDECISION AND THEIR FOREIGNMINISTER JOINS ME NOW FROMHELSINKI.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOURTIME.

WE HADBEEN ANTICIPATED THATDECISION FROM VLADIMIR PUTIN TOPULL OUT OF THIS GREEN DEAL.

YOU HAVE STRONGLYCONDEMNED IT.

THE U. N. WILL AS WELL.

THE CONSEQUENCES WILL BESEVERE, ESPECIALLY FROM SOME OFTHE MOST VULNERABLE COUNTRIESIN THE WORLD.

WHAT CAN BE DONE TO TURN THINGSAROUND IN YOUR VIEW?

>> IT IS INDEED A VERY, VERYDEPLORABLE DECISION BY RUSSIASINCEIT INCREASES FOODINSECURITY AROUND THE WORLD ANDWEAKENS THEPOSITION OF PEOPLEHAVING HUNGER IN THEIRLIVESSIGNIFICANTLY.

WE JUST HAVE TO FINDALTERNATIVE WAYS TO BEABLE TOGET THE GRAIN OUT OF UKRAINEAND ONTOTHE MARKET'S.

AND TO THOSE PEOPLE MOST INNEED.

AND, OF COURSE, THE BESTSOLUTION TO THIS SITUATIONWOULD BE RUSSIA WOULD END THEWAR AND WITHDRAWFROM UKRAINE.

>> WHAT ARE THOSE ALTERNATIVESOLUTIONS INYOUR VIEW?

AS WE HAVE SEEN A DAY AFTER --NOT EVEN 24 HOURS AFTER THEANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE OFPULLING OUT OF THE GREEN DEAL,WE SAW MORE MISSILES LOBBEDATTHE MAIN PORT TO BRING THOSEGRAINS OUT OF THE REGION.

WHAT ELSE CAN BE DONE?

WHAT ARETHE ALTERNATIVES?

>> WE HAVE TO WORK.

OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE STARTED ONWORKING ONALTERNATIVE ROUTES.

BUT IT JUSTSHOWS THAT RUSSIAHAS NO CREDIT WHATSOEVERTOWARDS PEOPLEIN NEED.

THAT THEY KEEP ON BOMBING THOSEESSENTIAL ROOTS ANDESSENTIALPORTS AND DESTROYINGINFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS NOTONLY NEEDED FOR THE PEOPLE OFUKRAINE BUTALSO ELSEWHERE.

SO WE JUST NEED TO WORK ON ANINTERNATIONAL BASIS ON FINDINGSOLUTIONS AND HOW TO BE ABLE TOEXPORTTHE GRAIN.

IT IS UP TOTHE COMMUNITY TOFIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT.

>> THE NEWEST PART OF THECOMMUNITY, AND THIS OBVIOUSLYCOMING AT THE TIME WHEN UKRAINEITSELF HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THATTHE COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS GROWINGSLOWER THAN THEY WOULD LIKE ATTHIS POINT.

SINCE JOINING THE NATOALLIANCE, WHAT HAS CHANGED ASFAR AS FINLAND'S CONTRIBUTIONAND SUPPORTFOR UKRAINE?

>> FINLAND HAS BEEN VERYCOMMITTED TO AIDING ANDSUPPORTING UKRAINE, RIGHT FROMTHE BEGINNING.

OBVIOUSLY, SINCE WE ARE ANEIGHBORING COUNTRY OF RUSSIAAND WE HAVE EXPERIENCED THEAGGRESSION OF RUSSIA, OR BACKTHEN THE SOVIETUNION.

LUCKILY, WE ALWAYSREMAINEDINDEPENDENT.

AND, THEREFORE, WE HAD ADIFFERENT EXPERIENCE FROMTHEUKRAINIANS.

BUT WE DO FEEL THE PAIN THATTHE UKRAINIANS ARE EXPERIENCINGON ADAILY BASIS.

AND, WHILE THEY HAVE TO DEFENDTHEMSELVES IN THEIR COUNTRYAGAINST THE AGGRESSOR, WE HAVEBEEN SUPPORTING THEMBILATERALLY BUT ALSO AS PART OFTHE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND, LUCKILY, WE HAD A VERYSUCCESSFUL CONFERENCE.

THE NATO SUMMIT LAST WEEK.

WE WEREABLE TOPERMIT AS NATOTO HELPING UKRAINE EVENSTRONGER THAN WHAT WE HAVE BEENABLE TO DO BEFORE.

>> YOU SHARE AN 800 MILE BORDERWITH RUSSIA.

AS YOU NOTED, THE HISTORYBETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES --THEN THE SOVIET UNION ANDFINLAND AT THE TIME --NO ONENEEDS TO BE REMINDED OF THELENGTHY BATTLE BETWEEN THOSETWO COUNTRIES.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THEDECISION NOT TO EVEN OFFER ANINVITATION OR A TIMETABLE TOUKRAINE TO JOIN THE ALLIANCENOW?

WAS THAT THE RIGHTDECISIONULTIMATELY?

>> IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FORNATO TO SHOW ITSUNITY AND TOSHOW ITS COMMITMENT FOR LONG-TERM AND OBVIOUSLY INCREASINGLYSHORT-TERM SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

THE WASHINGTONTREATY SAYS NATOCANNOT ACCEPT MEMBERS WHO AREACTIVELY ENGAGED IN A WAR, AND,UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS THE CASEWITH UKRAINE AS WESPEAK.

NOW, THE MOST IMPORTANT STEPSOBVIOUSLY ARE THAT WE KEEPSUPPORTING UKRAINE IN THE SHORTTERM ON ALLPOSSIBLE LEVELS ,ALSO WITH THE ARMS DELIVERIES,SUCH THAT THEY CAN MOREEFFECTIVELY DEFEND THEMSELVES,BUT ALSO REGAIN BACK THEIRSOVEREIGN TERRITORY AND PUSHBACKTHE AGGRESSOR.

AND THEN ALSO WE WERE ABLE TOAGREE ON SEVERAL OTHER TERMS,WHICH MAKE THE PROCESS MUCH,MUCH SMOOTHER FOR UKRAINE INTHE FUTURE TO JOIN THEALLIANCE.

WE ARE SLASHING THATMEMBERSHIPACTION PLANPROCESS FORUKRAINE, WHICH MEANS WHEN THEDAY ARRIVES, THE PROCESS OFJOINING NATO WILL BE SHORTERAND SMOOTHER.

ALL MEMBERS HAVE COMMITTED TOHELPING UKRAINE, INCLUDINGFINLAND AS WELLNOW, AS A FRESHMEMBER OF NATO, TO HELP UKRAINEIN ACHIEVING THOSEREQUIREMENTSAND CRITERIA WHICH ARE NEEDEDTO BECOME A MEMBER.

BOTH FROM THE MILITARYSIDE BUTWHAT COMES TO SOCIETY,DEMOCRACY, AND THE RULEOF LAW.

THEY NEED TO BE EFFECTIVE INTHE COUNTRY, AS WELL.

THEN, OF COURSE, WE COMMITTEDTO SUPPORT,AND, NOW, ALSO WITHTHE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE G7 ANDTHESECURITY ASSURANCES ONTOWHICH THE NORDIC COUNTRIES,INCLUDING FINLAND ALSO,HAVECOMMITTED.

I THINK WE HAVE A VERY GOODPACKAGE FOR UKRAINE.

AND WE JUST NEED TO MAKESURETHAT RUSSIA SEES THAT THEY HAVENO WAY OF WINNING THIS WAR.

>> WELL, DESPITE THESECOMMITMENTS FROM BOTH NATO ANDTHE G7 COMING OUT OF THE NATOSUMMIT LAST WEEK,AND,OBVIOUSLY, WITH THE SUMMITTHERE AND THE CONFERENCEBETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THEPRESIDENT OF FINLAND, THEREWERE QUESTIONS.

SOME FROM FINNISHJOURNALISTS TOPRESIDENT BIDEN, SPECIFICALLYABOUT HOW LONG-TERM THATCOMMITMENT IS, ESPECIALLY WITHAN ELECTION LOOMING IN THEUNITED STATES NEXT YEAR.

HERE IS WHAT PRESIDENT BIDENSAID.

>> I ABSOLUTELYGUARANTEE IT.

THERE IS NO QUESTION.

THERE IS OVERWHELMING SUPPORTFROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THERE IS OVERWHELMING SUPPORTFROM THE MEMBERS OF THECONGRESS, BOTH THE HOUSE ANDSENATE.

AND BOTH PARTIES,NOTWITHSTANDING SOME EXTREMEELEMENTS OF BOTH PARTIES.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE KNOWNSINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR IIAND THE FORMATION OF NATO THATOUR SECURITY RESTS IN THEANONYMITY AMONG THE EUROPEANAND TRANSONIC PARTNER, US.

NO ONE CAN GUARANTEE THE FUTUREBUT THIS IS THE BEST THATANYONE CAN MAKE.

>> AREYOU CONCERNED ABOUT WHATTHE FUTURE HOLDS, PARTICULARLYIF PRESIDENT BIDEN DOESNOT WINTHE ELECTION NEXTYEAR?

WITH SUPPORT FROM THE UNITEDSTATES?

>> UNITED STATES IS A DEMOCRACYWHERE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITEDSTATES HAD THE POSSIBILITY OFLIBERTY TO CHOOSE WHICHEVERCANDIDATE THEYWANT TO I AM NOTESPECIALLY CONCERNED BECAUSE IAM SURE THAT THE AMERICANPEOPLE DO UNDERSTAND AND DOVALUE THELONG-TERM COMMITMENTOF THE TRANSATLANTIC TIE THATWE HAVE BETWEEN EUROPE ANDNORTH AMERICA.

ALSO, WITHINNATO.

HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS.

THE LONGER INTOTHE FUTURE.

SO I AM PRETTY CERTAIN THAT THECOMMITMENT TOWARD UKRAINE,TOWARDS EUROPE, AND TOWARDSNATO WILL ALSO REMAIN INTHEFUTURE.

>> I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT WASRIGHT TO SAY NO ONE KNOWS WHATWILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

I BET IF SOMEONE HAD TOLD YOUBACK IN 2018 WHEN BESIDEDIFFERENT U. S. PRESIDENT,PRESIDENT TRUMP STANDING THEREALONGSIDE VLADIMIR PUTIN INFINLAND THAT FINLAND WOULD BEJOININGTHE ALLIANCE.

NOW, WE HAVE SWEDEN LOOKINGLIKE IT IS GETTING THE GREENLIGHT FROM PRESIDENT AIRD ONEOF TURKEY.

I SURPRISED ABOUT HOW QUICKLYTHIS ALL CHANGED AND HOW THEWAR AND RUSSIA'S ILLEGALINVASIONOF UKRAINE REALLYCHANGED THE GEOPOLITICALLANDSCAPE, NOT ONLY FOR EUROPE,BUT FORTHE WORLD?

>> AND D. IT DID CHANGE PRETTYQUICKLY.

I THINK THE FINNISH PEOPLE,THEY DECIDED, PERHAPSOVERNIGHT, THAT IT WAS TIME TOJOIN NATO.

PREVIOUSLY,FINLAND HADMILITARILY BEEN NONALIGNED.

NOT BECAUSE WE WERE SOMEHOWAGAINST NATO BECAUSE, INDEED,WE WERE COOPERATING VERY, VERYCLOSELY ALREADYAND HADBILATERAL DEFENSE AGREEMENTSWITH SEVERAL OFTHE MEMBERS.

BUT THE FINNISH PEOPLE PERHAPSDID NOT THINK IT WAS NECESSARY.

WE ALSO VERY HEAVILY INVESTEDINTO OUR OWN DEFENSE.

WE HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN SECURITYVERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

AND WE DO HAVE ONE OF THESTRONGEST ARMIES, INDEED, INEUROPE.

BUT NOW IT WAS A DECISION THATHAD TO BEMADE, FINALLY.

AND WHO IS TO BLAME?

WELL, IT IS RUSSIA.

IT IS THEIR ACTIONS WHO CAUSEDTHIS.

NOW, WE JUST HOPE FOR SWEDEN TOBECOME A MEMBER, ALSO, AS SOONASPOSSIBLE BECAUSE FINLANDMEMBERSHIP IS NOT COMPLETEWITHOUT THAT OF SWEDEN.

>> WHAT DOES THE WARLOOK LIKE?

ALL WARS AT SOME POINT TO COMETO AN END.

IT DOES NOT APPEAR THATVLADIMIR PUTIN IS SERIOUS ABOUTANY SORT OF NEGOTIATION AT THISPOINT.

AND THE UKRAINIANS WILL NOTAGREE TO ANY SORT OF DEAL THATDOESNOT SEE RUSSIAN TROOPSLEAVING THE LAND THAT THEY HAVETAKEN OVER, EVEN INCLUDINGCRIMEA, BUT ESPECIALLY FROMFEBRUARY 24thOF 2022.

DOES THAT LOOK LIKE SOMETHINGTHATWILL CONTINUE, IN YOURVIEW, FOR YEARS TO COME,PERHAPS?

>> WELL, WE CERTAINLY DO NOTHOPE THAT.

I THINK THE PEACE FORMULA BYPRESIDENTZELENSKY IS A VERYGOOD STARTING POINT, ANDSOMETHING WE CANABSOLUTELYSUPPORT.

THE MAIN THING IS THAT WE, INTHE WEST, WE DO NOT TRY TOIMPOSE ANY CONDITIONS OR ANYREQUIREMENTS ON UKRAINE FOR THEWAR TOEND ORFOR PEACENEGOTIATIONS OR OTHER TALKS.

IT WILL BE VERY MUCH THEDECISION OF THE UKRAINIANPEOPLE AND OF UKRAINE, BASED ONWHICH TERMS THEY WANT TO AGREEON PEACE AND HOW THEY CAN ANDWILL PROCEED BASED ONIT.

UNFORTUNATELY, BY THE HARD ITLOOKS, THERE WILL NOTBE ANYPEACE TOBE ACHIEVED EASILY,BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE IN THEINTEREST OF RUSSIA TO KEEP THECONFLICT ALIVE FOR A LONG TIME,LIKE THEY HAVE BEENDOING SINCE2014.

SO, I THINK, THISJUSTEMPHASIZES THESTRONG NEED FROMTHE REST OF US, FROM THE WEST,TO KEEP ON AIDING UKRAINE,BECAUSE THEY ARE, INDEED,FIGHTING FOR US.

THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THELIBERTY OF THE WESTERN VALUESOF DEMOCRACIES AND THE EUROPEANWAY OF LIFE.

SO WE NEED TO KEEP ONSUPPORTINGTHEM.

>> MINISTEROF FOREIGN AFFAIRSELINA VALTONEN, THANK YOU FORYOUR TIME.

WE WELCOME YOU BACK TO THEPROGRAM ANYTIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> TURNING TO THE WORLD OFCRYPTOCURRENCIES AND THE FLAWSOF THE DIGITAL PHENOMENON, THENMcKENZIE, BEST KNOWN FOR HISSTARRING ROLES IN TV SHOWS "THEOC," AND "GOTHAM,"MADE ACAREER CHANGE.

HE HAS MADEA NEW BOOK, "THERISE AND FALL OF DIGITALCURRENCIES. "

>> ACTOR AND AUTHOR BENMcKENZIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FORJOINING US.

FIRST, OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS OFA CERTAIN AGE MIGHT RECOGNIZEYOU FROM A COUPLE OF TV SHOWSAND SAY, WAIT, WHAT IS THE GUYFROM"THE OC" DOING TALKINGABOUT CRYPTOCURRENCY.

WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA TO WRITEA BOOKABOUT CRYPTOCURRENCIES,THE SCANS, SOME OF THECHARLATANS INVOLVED.

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

>> IT IS A PRETTY INTERESTINGSTORY.

I HAVE A DEGREE IN ECONOMICSFROM THEUNIVERSITY OFVIRGINIA.

ABOUT 20 YEARS OLD.

I KIND OF SET IT ASIDE AS IPURSUED MY HOLLYWOOD PACK.

BUT I WOULD SAY, EASY MONEY.

IT IS ABOUT MONEY AND ALLYING.

I KNOW ABOUT MONEY.

I DO IT FOR A LIVING.

ANDTHE CRYPTOCURRENCIES, YOUKNOW, THEY ARE NOT CURRENCIESECONOMICALLY SPEAKING.

ANYONE WITH AN UNDERGRADUATEDEGREE SUCH AS MYSELF KNOWSTHAT.

IT LET ME DOWN A PRETTY WILDRABBIT HOLE WHERE I INTERVIEWEDSAM BATEMAN FREED OF FTX, AND ITRAVELED THE WORLD TRYING TOGET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTERIN TERMS OF WHAT IS CRYPTOANDWHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE PUT SOMUCH INTO IT?

BUT I HAD THIS SUSPICION.

I HAD THIS SUSPICION THAT IF IWAS RIGHT, WHAT I WAS LOOKINGAT WAS EFFECTIVELY THE BIGGESTPONZI SCHEME IN HISTORY.

SOME 40-50 MILLIONAMERICANSBOUGHT CRYPTOCURRENCY.

I WAS STRUGGLING WITH THISDURING THE HEIGHT OF THE MEMEYEAH IN 2021.

I WAS READING THE YOUNGDAUGHTER A STRIKE.

I READ HER "THE EMPEROR'S NEWCLOTHES.

"AND I HAD FORGOTTEN A COUPLE OFPOINTS.

FIRST, THE SWINDLERS TRICKEDTHE EMPEROR AND ALL THE PEOPLEIN TOWNBYSAYING THAT ONLY THEPEOPLE OF THE HIGHEST STATION,THE SMARTEST PEOPLE, CAN SEETHE IMAGINARY CLOTHES THATTHEYLEAVE.

SO IT REALLY APPEALS TO STATUSWORSHIP AND EGO.

AND THE SECOND THING IS THAT ATTHE HEIGHT OF THE STORY, AS THEEMPEROR GOES TO TOWN NAKEDANDTHE ADULTS PRETEND NOT TONOTICE, IT ISA CHILD.

HE DOES NOT KNOW HE IS BEINGBRAVE.

HE SIMPLY IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

IT WAS HARD NOT TO PUT MYSELFIS THAT CHILD.

WHAT DO I KNOW?

I AM A FORMER TEEN IDOL.

20 YEARS IN SHOWBIZ.

THEN AGAIN, I DO HAVE ANECONOMICS DEGREE.

I HAVE DONE THE RESEARCH.

AND I DO KNOW ABOUT LIGHTING.

AND WHAT IF I AM RIGHT?

WHAT AN ADVENTURE THATMIGHTBE.

IT ENDED UP BEING EVEN MORE OFAN ADVENTURE THAN I COULD HAVEEXPECTED.

>> NOW, WHEN YOU MENTION YOUROWN RESEARCH, THAT IS KIND OFTHE CRYPTO GOSPEL, IF YOU WILL.

PEOPLE WHO BELIEVEINCRYPTOCURRENCIES AS THISSTRUCTURAL TRANSFORMATION OFECONOMIES AND THE BANKINGSYSTEM, THEY ALWAYS SAY, DOYOUR OWN RESEARCH.

HERE YOU ARE KIND OF DOING YOUROWN RESEARCH.

WHAT WERE THE FIRST THINGS THATSURPRISEDYOU?

>> WELL, THE MARKET STRUCTURE.

CRYPTO VOLUMES RUN THROUGH THEOVERSEAS EXCHANGES PRIMARILY.

PLACES LIKE THE BAHAMAS, WHEREFTX WAS BASED BEFORE ITCOLLAPSED.

THE CARIBBEAN ISLANDS.

PLACESLIKE THAT.

THESE ARE AREAS WHERE OBVIOUSLYAMERICAN REGULATIONS ARE NOT INEFFECT, AND IF AMERICANCUSTOMERSARE ACCESSING--THEYCALL THEM CRYPTO EXCHANGES, BUTECONOMICALLY SPEAKING THEY ARECASINOS BECAUSECRYPTOCURRENCIES DO NOT DOANYTHING PRODUCTIVE.

THEY ARE KNOWN INECONOMICS ASA ZERO-SUM GAME.

IT IS LIKE PLAYING POKER INVEGAS.

YOU AND I CAN SIT AROUNDATABLE.

I MIGHT WIN A HAND OR YOU MIGHTWIN A HAND.

WE ARE NOT CREATING ANY VALUE.

WE ARE TRADING BACK AND FORTHAMONGST OURSELVES AND ME FILETHE HOUSE IS TAKINGTHE RAKE.

THAT IS WHAT KEEPS THE LIGHTSON IN THE CASINO.

SO COULD YOU WIN IN VEGAS?

SURE.

BUT, OVER TIME, THE AVERAGEGAMBLER WILL LOSE BECAUSE THATIS HOW THEY KEEP THE LIGHTS ON.

CRYPTOIS A UNREGULATED,UNLICENSED CASINO IF IT ISOVERSEAS.

SO YOUR ODDS ARE EVEN WORSE.

THAT WAS MY FIRSTSORT OFFUNDAMENTAL INSIGHT.

BUT IT FIRST STARTED WITHLANGUAGE.

THESE THINGS ARE NOTCURRENCIES.

THEY ARE SECURITIES, MEANINGTHEY ARE INVESTMENTS.

THERE ARE 20,000CRYPTOCURRENCIESOUT THERE.

THAT IS MORE CRYPTOCURRENCIESBY NUMBER THEN STOCKS IN THEMAJOR U. S. STOCK MARKETS.

AND THEY ARE EFFECTIVELYSTRUCTURALLYPAY STOCKS.

NO DISCLOSURE.

NO REAL INVESTOR PROTECTION.

THAT IS REALLY DANGEROUS.

THAT WAS TERRIFYING WHEN IDISCOVERED THAT.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE UNDERLYING,KIND OF, TECHNOLOGICALARGUMENTS THAT WEREBEING MADE?

ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGESTHAT CRYPTOCURRENCY PROPONENTSSAY THAT THEY PROPOSE IS TO THEEXISTING FIAT OR THE PAPERCURRENCY.

THE BANKING SYSTEM THAT WEKNOWOF.

THEY ARE SAYING THAT THIS ISCOMING AT A TIME WHEN THERE ISSUCH LITTLE TRUST IN OURFINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, WHEREWE HAVE COME ACROSS FINANCIALCRISESLIKE THEMORTGAGEMELTDOWN.

WE LOOK AROUND AND SAY HOW MANYOF THOSE PEOPLE WENT TO JAILVERSUS HOW MANY WERE LEFT OUTOF THEIR HOMES?

IT SEEMS LIKE THE SORT OFTECHNOLOGY WASTRYING TO, WELL,HARNESS THIS DISCONTENT.

>> IT ACTUALLY HARNESSED IT ANDI WOULD SAY EXPLOITED IT.

IF THERE IS ANYTHING I AGREEWITH THE CRYPTO FOLKS ON ISTHAT IT WOULDBE OURSYSTEM ISDEEPLY FLAWED.

BUT THAT IS TRUE WITH ANYSYSTEM.

WE HUMANS MADE UP MONEY.

WE MADE UP OUR FINANCIALSYSTEM.

WE MADE UP OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

THEY ARE COLLECTIVEHALLUCINATIONS TO SOME DEGREE.

AND THEY ARE UNDEROURCOLLECTIVE CONTROL THAT WE SEETHE MYRIAD OF FLAWS IN THEM ANDTHAT GIVES THE STORY OFCRYPTOCURRENCY.

IN EFFECT, CRYPTO IS REALLYJUST A STORY.

IT GIVE THE STORY A LOTOFPOWER.

BUT THE TRICK THERE IS YOU GOFROM STARTING WITH ANASSUMPTION THAT MOST PEOPLEHAVE, WHICH IS THAT OUR SYSTEMIS NOT GREAT AND IT COULD BEIMPROVED, AT BEST, IF NOT ASOMEWHAT DARKER TAKE.

IT STARTS WITH THAT ASSUMPTIONWHICH MOST OF US AGREE ON.

THEN IT SAYS CRYPTO SOLVES ALLTHOSE PROBLEMS.

THAT IS THE TRICK.

THAT IS THE THREE CARD MONTEMOVE.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

CRYPTOCURRENCY DOES NOT DO ANYOFTHE THINGS THAT IT SAYS ITIS GOING TO DO.

IT DOES NOT FIX ANY OF THEPROBLEMS THAT IT SAYS IT ISGOING TO FIX.

IN FACT, IT EXACERBATES ALMOSTALL OF THEM.

IT WAS SAYING THAT IT WAS GOINGTO CREATE GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

AND WAS MARKETED TO THE BLACKCOMMUNITY IN PARTICULAR AS AGENERATIONAL WEALTH BUILDER.

YOU RISKLOSING ALL OF YOURMONEY.

IT WAS MARKETED AS A WAY OFBANKING THE UNBANKED.

PROVIDING BANKING SERVICES TOPEOPLE WHO CANNOT GET THOSESERVICES PROVIDED TO THEM.

WELL, IT DOES NOT DO THATEITHER.

>> AND WHO FELLFOR IT?

MEANING, WHO ARE THE ONES WHOARE MOST AFFECTED?

>> IN TERMS OF WHO BOUGHT AND,EVERYONE.

AND I MEAN EVERYONE.

40-50 MILLIONAMERICANS BROUGHTCRYPTOCURRENCY.

IT IS ACTUALLY FAIRLY FAMILIAR,THE PERCENTAGES.

THATEQUATES TO 15-20% OF THEAMERICAN PUBLIC.

IT IS EVERYONE FROM THE WEALTHYTO THE MIDDLE CLASS TO THEWORKING CLASS.

ALLRACES.

BOTH SEXES.

IT WAS DISPROPORTIONATELY MEN.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEMINORITYGROUPS BOUGHTTOWARDS THE ENDOF THE CYCLE, IN ADISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER.

SO THEY HAVE SUFFERED, I WOULDARGUE, THE MOST, WHICH IS ONEOF THE MOST PERNICIOUS PARTS OFCRYPTO.

IN PART, IT HASEXPLOITED ANUNDERSTANDABLE LACK OF TRUSTWITH OUR REGULATED SYSTEMANDIT SAID THAT CRYPTO COULD FIXIT WHEN, IN FACT, CRYPTO MAKESIT WORSE AND IT CAN AND FURTHERRISKOF HEART IMPOVERISHINGPEOPLE.

I WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND IFEVEN INTERESTED HOW THEY MAYHAVEBEEN SWINDLED.

AND THEY HOPEFULLY KNOW THEYCAN TAKE FROM THAT SOME LESSONSIN THE FUTURE.

>> YOU HAD A CHANCE TO SIT DOWNWITH SANDBANK MEN FREED.

HE BECAME THE FACE OF THECRYPTO INDUSTRY.

HE WAS ON THECOVER OFMAGAZINES.

HE WAS CALLED THE J. P. MORGAN OF HIS GENERATION.

HESITS DOWN WITH YOU FOR ANINTERVIEW ON CAMERA ANDWHATHAPPENS?

>> AND FELT AT THE TIME LIKE IWAS PUNCHING AGAINST AIR.

WHAT I KNEW OF SAM WASPRETTYMUCH WHAT THE PUBLIC KNEW.

HE WAS ON THE COVEROF ALLTHESE MAGAZINES.

HE WASTESTIFYING IN FRONT OFALL THESE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

HE WAS THE GOLDEN BOY FROMCALIFORNIA WHO WAS GOING TOCLEAN UP, YOU KNOW, INNOVATIVEINDUSTRY THAT JUST NEEDED ALITTLE BITOF REGULATION.

AND WHAT I FOUND INSTEAD, A30-YEAR-OLD KID.

SMART.

FROM A FAMILY OFLAW PROFESSORS.

HAD ALL THE CREDENTIALS.

BUT WHEN I ASKED HIM BRACESIMPLE QUESTIONS --FOREXAMPLE, I ASKED HIM, GIVE MEONE COMPANY, ANYCRYPTOCURRENCY, THAT IS DOINGANYTHING PRODUCTIVE THAT HAS ANACTUAL USECASE.

HAS A GOOD OR SERVICE THAT ITPROVIDES ORDOES ANYTHING.

HE STRUGGLED TO ANSWER THATQUESTION AND ULTIMATELY TALKEDABOUT A CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT HE,IN FACT, OWNED A LOT OF, WHICHI FOUND AWFULLY CONVENIENT.

WE WENT AROUND AND AROUNDANDAROUND.

AND THE MORE WE TALKED, THEMORE HOLLOW THE WHOLE THINGFELT.

NOW, I CANNOT PUT MY FINGER ONEXACTLY WHAT WAS WRONG.

AT THE TIME, WE DID NOT KNOWWHAT HE WAS ALLEGED TO HAVEDONE, WHICH WAS BASICALLY TORUN A PONZI SCHEME.

BUT ALL THE SIGNSWERE THERE.

HE WAS RUNNING AN EXCHANGE THATWAS DOMICILED OVERSEAS.

SO FREE OFU.

S. REGULATION.

HE WAS RUNNING A MARKET-MAKINGFIRM THAT WAS RUNNING THATEXCHANGE.

THAT IS A CONFLICT OF INTERESTAND IS NOT ALLOWED IN REGULATEDMARKETS.

HE HAD A VERY SMALL GROUP OFPEOPLE HE WAS FRIENDS WITH.

THAT IS WHAT FRAUDSTERS DO.

THEY NEED TO KEEP THE CIRCLE OFTRUST TIGHT.

THAT HE WAS DONATING A LOTOFMONEYTO POLITICIANS, BOTHDEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, TOTRY TO STEER LEGISLATION THATWOULD BE FAVORABLE TO HISINDUSTRY.

MAYBE, ANY ONE OF THOSETHINGSIN ISOLATION IS NOT A HUGE REDFLY, BUT ALL THOSE COMBINEDTOGETHER IS MASSIVE.

THOSE WERE MASSIVE RED FLAGS.

I WILL PUT IT THIS WAY.

THE TITLE OF THAT CHAPTERISENTITLED"THE EMPERORISBUTTNAKED. "

>> AND YOU HAD SXSW.

WHAT DID THAT CONVERSATIONWITH HIMSHOW YOU AND WHAT HAPPENEDTOHIM?

>> I SAT DOWN AT ANIMPROMPTUSETTING.

I JUST SAW HIM AND KNEWSOMETHING ABOUT HIS HISTORY.

I ASKED TO INTERVIEW HIM ANDHEAGREED.

I WOULD SAY THE MOST SHOCKINGTHING ABOUT OUR INTERVIEW,TOME, WAS I ASKED HIM HOW MUCHMONEY INCRYPTO ISRAEL.

ANDHE DID NOT NEED ME TO EXPLAINWHAT REAL MONEY WAS.

HE SAID, 10-15%.

THE RESTIS SPECULATION.

AT THE TIME, THE CRYPTO MARKETCAP WAS, I BELIEVE,$1.

8TRILLION.

SO GIVE OR TAKE WHAT HE WASSAYING, $1.

5 TRILLION OF THATWAS NOT THERE.

IT IS LEVERAGE ANDSPECULATION.

IT IS ALL THESE THINGS THATEXIST IN OTHERMARKETS.

BUT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS NOTBEING SOLD ON THAT.

THE GLOBAL PUBLIC,THEY WEREBEING TOLD THIS IS THE FUTUREOF MONEY.

IF YOU JUST PUT YOUR MONEY IN,YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A TON OFMONEY.

IN FACT, WHAT WAS REALLYHAPPENING WAS THE PRICES OF ALLTHE SPECULATIVE ASSETS WEREBEING MANIPULATED UPWARDS TOGET REAL PEOPLE IN, AND,ULTIMATELY, AS THE PRICESWENTDOWN, REAL PEOPLE WANTED THEIRREAL MONEY BACK, ONLY TO FINDTHAT IT WAS NOT THERE.

SO ITALKED TO MINKSENSKI INMARCH OF 2022.

JUST A COUPLE MONTHS AFTER ISPOKE TO HIM,HIS COMPANY WENTBELLY UP.

IT IS IN CHAPTER11.

AND 300,000 PEOPLE WHO HADGIVEN THEIR MONEY TO CELSIUSNOW CANNOT GET THEIR MONEYBACK.

IT IS UNCLEAR HOW MUCH OF THATMONEY EVEN EXISTS.

MINKSENSKI IS BEING SUED BY THENEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL FORFRAUD.

>> SO YOU TESTIFIED IN FRONTOFCONGRESSLAST DECEMBER.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WE CANDO?

WHAT CAN LEGISLATURES DO TO TRYTO PREVENT MORE PEOPLE FROMBEING SWINDLED?

BECAUSE CRYPTOCURRENCIES STILLEXIST.

THERE ARE STILL EXCHANGES.

YOU AND I CAN GO BUY WHATEVERWE WANT.

>> WE HAVE TO ENFORCE OURSECURITY LAWS AND COMMODITYLAWS RIGOROUSLY, AND THEN WENEED THE DOJ TO SHUT DOWNSOMEOF THESE PLACES OVERSEAS.

I USE THE EXAMPLE INTHE BLOCK.

ONLINE POKER IS REALLY THE BESTPARALLEL HERE.

IN THE 2000'S, ONLINE POKERTOOK OFF AS YOUNGMEN SAW--AGUY NAMED CHRIS MONEYMAKER WONTHE WORLD SERIES OF POKER ANDHE WAS JUST AN AVERAGE JOE.

THEY THOUGHT, HEY, IF HE CAN DOIT, SO CAN I.

SO ONLINE POKERWENT FROM AN INDUSTRYTHAT WASNONEXISTENT TO A MULTIMILLIONDOLLAR INDUSTRY IN THE SPAN OFA FEW YEARS.

LAWMAKERS REALIZED IT WAS THEWILD WEST AND PEOPLE WEREPROBABLY GETTING SWINDLED ANDIT WAS BEING USED TO FACILITATECRIME.

SO THEY PASSED A LAW IN 2006,AND BUSH SIGNED IT INTO LAW.

WELL, THE ONLINE GAMBLINGCOMPANIES AND POKER COMPANIESMOVED OVERSEAS, LIKE TO THECARIBBEANISLAND NATIONS.

ULTIMATELY, IT TOOK THE DOJSHIFTING THOSEWEBSITES DOWN ONWHAT IS CALLED BLACK FRIDAY INTHE ONLINEPOKER COMMUNITY.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEYDISCOVERED, WHEN THEY SHUTITDOWN,WAS THAT SOME OF THESITES HAVE BEEN SWINDLING THEIRCUSTOMERS.

ONE OF THEM IN PARTICULAR HAD ASECRET GOD MODE WHERE INSIDERSCOULD SEE THE OTHER PLAYER'SCARDS.

SOME OF THE PLAYERS INCRYPTOCURRENCY ACTUALLY GOTTHEIR START IN ONLINE POKER.

>> ONE OFTHE CENTRALTENANTSOF CRYPTOCURRENCIES, OR ATLEAST THE MATH BEHIND IT, ISTHAT IT PROVIDES WHAT IS CALLEDA TRUST LIST SYSTEM.

RIGHT?

YOU TRUST THE MATH, THECRYPTOGRAPHY.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT AFEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN ISGOING TO DO WITH INTEREST RATESOR WHAT A GOVERNMENT ORCURRENCY IS GOING TO DO INRESPONSE TO ITS OWN ECONOMICNEEDS.

WHAT DID YOU FIND AS YOU WENTTHROUGH THIS REPORTING?

>> YOU CANNOT HAVE A TRUST LISTMONEY.

BECAUSE MONEY IS TRUST.

WE MAKE MONEY UP.

IT IS NOT REAL.

SO WHETHER ITIS AGREEN PIECEOF PAPER WITH FUNNY LITTLEMARKINGS ON IT THAT I GIVE YOUTHAT YOU ACCEPT BECAUSE YOUKNOW YOU CAN TAKE THAT GREENPIECE OF PAPER AND USE IT TOBUY WHATEVER YOU WANT, MONEY ISBASICALLY TRUST SCALED.

SO SAYING YOU WANT TOCREATE ATRUSTLESS IS LITERALLYNONSENSE.

THAT IS LIKE SAYING YOU WANT TOCREATE AGOVERNMENTLESSGOVERNMENT ORRELIGIONLESSRELIGION.

CODE DOESNOT FALL FROM THESKY.

WHAT ISALLEGES THATSAMBANKMAN FRIED TOLD ONE OF HISSUBORDINATES TO CHANGE A SINGLELINE OF CODE --MILLIONS OFLINES OF CODE --TO CREATE ASECRET BACK TO WHERE HE COULDBORROW HIS CUSTOMER'S MONEY.

WE ARE ALL FALLIBLEAS HUMANS.

AND IT IS PERHAPS DISCOMFORTINGTO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FACT AND TOACKNOWLEDGE THAT OUR SYSTEM ISDEEPLY FLAWED AND THAT IT NEEDSFIXING.

BUT THERE IS NO MAGICAL BITS OFCOMPUTER CODE THAT FAR FROM THESKY THAT WILL SOLVEOURPROBLEMS.

IN FACT, IT IS USUALLY BEINGUSED TO SCAM OR DEFRAUD YOU.

>> BEEN McKINSEY, THE AUTHOR OF"EASY MONEY.

"THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

> >> AUSTRALIA HAD A MYSTERYOBJECT WASH ASHORE OVERWEEKEND.

THIS 10 FOOT WIDE CYLINDERTURNING UP OUT OF THE BLUE INTHE COASTAL TOWN OF GREEN HAD.

SPECULATION HAS GONE WILD ASPEOPLE TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHATIT IS AND WHERE ITCAME FROM.

AUTHORITIES WERE BAFFLED BY ITSSUDDEN APPEARANCE.

, AND ANSWERMAY HAVE EMERGED.

IT IS MOST LIKELY SPACE JUNK.

PLEASE HAVE BOWED TO GUARD THEOBJECT UNTIL IT IS CLEANEDUP.

NOW,THEY JUST HAVE TO FIGUREOUT HOW ON EARTH TO DO IT.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAMTONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT ISCOMING UP ON THE SHOW EACHNIGHT, SIGN UP ON OURNEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THIS IS "AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

"JOIN US AGAINTOMORROW NIGHT.