August 11, 2023

♪ >> HELLO AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO .

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THIS IS GENDER APARTHEID.

>> TWO YEARS SINCE THE TALIBAN TAKE OVER, AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE ALL BUT BEEN ERASED FROM PUBLIC LIFE.

THEN, THE NEW YORK TIMES OPINION COLUMNIST TALKS TO WALTER ISAACS ABOUT THEIR FRAGILITY'S OF AMERICA'S INSTITUTIONS.

>> THE FRUSTRATIONS REBUILDING.

THERE WAS THIS ATMOSPHERE FOR FIGHTING.

>> WHAT WENT ON BEHIND THE SCENE DURING THE FILMING OF JAWS?

THAT DRAMA IS COMING TO BROADWAY.

WE WILL BRING YOU MY CONVERSATION WITH ITS WRITER AND STAR, IAN SHOW.

THE SON OF ROBERT SHOW.

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>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, IN LONDON.

THE SCENES ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO FORGET.

CHAOS AND DESPERATION AT THE AIRPORT AS AMERICANS HASTILY LEFT AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER.

IT WAS NEARLY 2 YEARS AGO NOW.

AND ANY HOPE THIS TELL ABOUND 2.0 MIGHT BE MORE MODERATE HAS ALL BUT VANISHED.

THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND GIRLS ARE CONTINUOUSLY UNDER ASSAULT.

SECONDARY SCHOOLS ARE STILL CLOSE FOR GIRLS AND THE LATEST EDICT CLOSED BEAUTY SALONS.

NOT JUST A PLACE OF WORK BUT ONE OF THE LAST CALL ALL WITHIN SPACES, WHERE THEY COULD SOCIALIZE.

LISTEN TO ONE KABUL SHOP OWNER STRUGGLING TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL.

>> I'M EXPERIENCING ONE OF THE WORST AND DARKEST DAYS OF MY LIFE.

TOTAL DISAPPOINTMENT.

WE STARTED OUR WORK WITH A LOT OF PASSION AND ENTHUSIASM BUT UNFORTUNATELY, EVERYTHING IS OVER.

>> SHE ADDED THAT THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE NOW IS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

GORDON BROWN WAS BRITAIN'S PRIME MINISTER.

HIS TROOPS WERE PART OF THE WESTERN COALITION AND NOW HE IS THE YOU ONE GLOBAL ENVOY ON EDUCATION.

HE IS MAKING A BOLD DECORATION THAT THE DENIAL OF FEMALE EDUCATION IN AFGHANISTAN SHOULD BE DECLARED A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

IN AN OP-ED FOR BRITAIN'S GUARDIAN NEWSPAPER, HE'S CALLING ON WORLD LEADERS TO UNITE AGAINST THE TALIBAN'S OPPRESSION.

>> PRIME MINISTER BROWN, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU WERE IN OFFICE BOTH AS CHANCELLOR AND PRIME MINISTER DURING THE YEARS WHEN THE TALIBAN WERE DEFEATED.

AL QAEDA WAS DEFEATED.

IT SEEMED THE WHOLE POINT WAS TO FREE AFGHAN WOMEN AND TO CREATE SOME KIND OF STABLE, POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT .

WHEN YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW TO THE WOMEN, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> MILLIONS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN WENT TO SCHOOL FOR THE FIRST TIME.

THERE IS A HUGE EXPANSION OF RIGHTS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN.

AND TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE EXCLUSION OF GIRLS, FROM EDUCATION, WOMEN FROM EMPLOYMENT, THE BAN ON ENTRY INTO PUBLIC PLACES.

MORSE RECENTLY A BAND ON ENTRY TO CEMETERIES WERE RELATIVES ARE BURIED.

IT IS THE MOST HEINOUS AND VICIOUS CRIME PERPETRATED AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND I AM SURPRISED THERE SO LITTLE INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION ON THIS FLAGRANT ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS WHICH IS SYSTEMATIC AND WHICH WILL CONTINUE AS LONG AS PRESSURE IS NOT PUT ON THE TALIBAN REGIME.

IT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH.

THAT IS WHY AM PROPOSING THAT THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT LOOK SPECIFICALLY AT THE VIOLATION OF THE RIGHTS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND I BELIEVE GOVERNMENTS LIKE THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND UK GOVERNMENT MUST IMPOSE SANCTIONS ON THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS POLICY.

IT IS NOT ENOUGH JUST TO COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

WE NEED A SYSTEMATIC PLAN TO BE ABLE TO FORCE THE HAND OF THE TALIBAN REGIME SO GIRLS AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE UPHELD AND RETURNED TO THEM AS THEY WERE BEING RETURNED IN THE 20 YEARS HE FOR THE TALIBAN TOOK CONTROL AGAIN.

>> LET ME GO DEEPLY TO WHAT THE U.N. SAID.

THIS IS TWO YEARS SINCE THE TALIBAN HAS BEEN IN POWER.

THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN IS THE WORST GLOBALLY.

IN JUNE, THEY SAID WOMEN AND GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN ARE SAID EXPERIENCING SEVERE DEMONSTRATION THAT MAY AMOUNT TO GENDER PERSECUTION, A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY AND BE CHARACTERIZED AS GENDER APARTHEID AS THE DE FACTO AUTHORITIES ARE GOVERNING BY SYSTEMATIC DISCRIMINATION WITH THE INTENTION TO SUBJECT WOMEN AND GIRLS TO TOTAL DOMINATION.

THIS IS VERY STRONG LANGUAGE FOR THE U.N., WHICH IS NOT OFTEN KNOWN FOR ITS STRONG LANGUAGE.

OBVIOUSLY, THE UNITED NATIONS DOES NOT RECOGNIZE THE TALIBAN.

YOU CALL FOR SHANKS ENDS.

YOU CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY BUT THEY HAVE PROVEN, RESISTANT TO THAT.

>> WHAT WE HAVE, I THINK, IS A SPLIT WITHIN THE AFGHANISTAN AUTHORITIES.

IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS BEING DIRECTED BY THE RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES IN KANDAHAR.

IT IS CLEAR THAT THE MINUTE THERE IS AN ATTEMPT TO BRING EDUCATION BACK TO GIRLS AND WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN, THE RELIGIOUS CLERICS, THE MULLAHS STEP UP THEIR CAMPAIGN.

INCREASINGLY, THEY HAVE BANNED THE ENTRY WOMEN AND GIRLS INTO PUBLIC SPACES, PUBLIC PARKS, INTO ANY FORMS OF ENTERTAINMENT, BEAUTY PARLORS.

EVERYTHING THAT THEY CAN REALLY TARGET.

THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN.

THERE IS A SPLIT IN THE REGIME.

IT IS CLEAR THAT WITHIN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO RESTORE THE RIGHTS TO GIRLS.

IT IS ALSO CLEAR THAT IN SOME PROVINCES, THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS IS NOT HAPPENING IN THE WAY THE CLERICS INTENDED.

WE KNOW OF COURSE THERE ARE UNDERGROUND SCHOOLS AT MANY ORGANIZATIONS.

WE KNOW INTERNET EDUCATION IS GETTING THROUGH INTO AFGHANISTAN.

WE HAVE TO STEP UP THESE THINGS TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE GONE SNOW THAT THEY CAN TRY REPRESS FOR SOME TIME BUT THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO REPRESS FOREVER.

THEY CAN BAN BOOKS AND BAN EDUCATION BUT THE WORLD WILL GET THROUGH.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THEY HAVE VERY BRAVE YOUNG AFGHAN GIRLS AND WOMEN, WHO ARE FIGHTING AT THE RISK OF TORTURE AND THE RISK OF BEING IMPRISONED FOR THE RIGHTS OF GIRLS TO GO TO SCHOOL.

AND THE MOST PROMINENT LEADER OF THIS THAT IS PRESSING FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS EDUCATION IS NOW IN PRISON.

WE NEED TO ALERT THE WORLD TO WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WE NEED TO SHOW THE SPLIT IN THE AFGHAN REGIME.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

MY REPORTING HAS REVEALED THAT AS WELL.

HERE'S THE THING.

AS YOU SAY, THE MORE PRACTICAL, PRAGMATIC MINDED TALIBAN WHO ACTUALLY CONTROL THE MOST MILITIA AND ARE THE MOST POWERFUL R AND CAL BOWL.

BUT, THEY SEEM NOT TO WANT, ON PAIN OF DEATH AND SANCTIONS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, THEY SEEM NOT TO WANT TO CHALLENGE THE RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES.

THE FUNDAMENTALISTS IN KANDAHAR.

SO, WHAT WOULD YOU PRESCRIBE, OR SOME KIND OF WAY OF CHANGING THE FUNDAMENTALISTS, RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES?

>> THAT'S WHY, IN ADDITION TO THE LEGAL OPINION WE ARE PUBLISHING, AND IN ADDITION TO ASKING INDIVIDUAL GOVERNMENTS TO PUT SANCTIONS ON THE REGIME, I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES, THE LEADERS OF THESE COUNTRIES TO FORM A DELEGATION AND TO MEET THE RELIGIOUS CLERICS IN KANDAHAR.

EVERYBODY, I THINK YOU STUDIES THIS, KNOWS THERE IS NOTHING IN ISLAM THAT SAID THE GIRLS EDUCATION SHOULD BE BANNED OR SUPPRESSED.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RELIGIOUS EDICTS OF THE RELIGION THAT ALLOWS FOR THIS DISCRIMINATION TO HAPPEN.

AND YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY, AS I SAY IN THE OPINION WE DO THAT THIS IS GENDER PERSECUTION.

IT IS GENDER APARTHEID.

THAT'S WHY IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO FIGHT IN AFGHANISTAN TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING IN EVERY PART OF THE WORLD.

I APPEAL TO THE MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES LEADERS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED TO STATES FOR THE POLICY.

WHO HAVE CALLED ON IT TO BE CHANGED.

BUT TO GO FURTHER AND LEAD DELEGATIONS INTO AFGHANISTAN, TO THE CLERICS AND NOT JUST TO THE POLITICAL LEADERS AND TELL THEM THIS IS NOT ONLY AND HE ISLAM, IT IS A DEFENSE, IT IS AN OFFENSE AGAINST BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS THAT WE CANNOT UPHOLD AND AT THE SAME TIME, WILL NOT ALLOW OTHER COUNTRIES TO FACE THIS IN THE FUTURE.

IT CANNOT SUCCEED IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE HAVE HAD MEETINGS.

THE TALIBAN HAVE A NUMBER OF COMMITTEES IN THE GOVERNMENT LOOKING AT THESE ISSUES.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY THAT THE BAND BY THE RELIGIOUS CLERICS HAS TO BE TAKEN HEAD- ON.

AND, RELIGIOUS CLERICS FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD AS WELL AS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP PUT PRESSURE ON THESE KANDAHAR MULLAHS WHO ARE STANDING IN THE WAY OF GIRLS GETTING THE PROPER RIGHTS TO EDUCATION.

>> YOU'RE THE U.N.

GLOBAL EDUCATION ENVOY.

THERE IS A SPLIT.

YOU ARE RECOMMENDING THE ICC LEVELS CHARGES OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

IS THAT A BLANKET ALLEGATION TO ALL THE TALIBAN?

DOESN'T NAME PARTICULAR -- HOW WILL IT WORK?

WHAT IS THE RESULT?

>> YOU KNOW THE WAY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT WORKS.

IT IS DOING AN INVESTIGATION INTO AFGHANISTAN.

THE WAY WORKS, CHARGES WILL BE LAID AGAINST INDIVIDUALS FOR THEIR DECISIONS AND FOR THEIR PART IN THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

GENDER PERSECUTION, I THINK IS NOW RECOGNIZED AS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

AND THIS IS THE CLASSIC CASE OF WHERE IT'S HAPPENING IN A WAY WHERE WE HAVE TO ACT.

I URGE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, THE PROSECUTORS OF THE COURT, TO OPEN AN INVESTIGATION INTO GENDER DISCRIMINATION.

EITHER THAT, OR EXTEND THE EXISTING REVIEW INTO INCLUDING, SPECIFICALLY, GENDER DISCRIMINATION.

I WOULD WANT TO SEE A REPORT DONE ON THIS.

THERE WERE IS A PRESIDENT BECAUSE THE ICC HAS TAKEN ACTION AGAINST RUSSIA BY OPENING INVESTIGATION AND LAYING CHARGES IN RELATION TO THE TRANSFER OF CHILDREN FROM UKRAINE TO RUSSIA.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IS DEALING WITH THE NEEDS OF CHILDREN AND AWAY WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING FOR, FOR SOME YEARS.

BUT TO EXTEND THE INVESTIGATION INTO AFGHANISTAN INTO THE CRIME OF GENDER DISCRIMINATION, UNDER THE AEGIS OF THE CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IS INDEPENDENT.

IT IS RIGHT DID THE SO.

I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD SAY THEY WILL SUPPORT THE PROSECUTOR IF HE IS IN A POSITION AND DECIDES TO LAUNCH THIS INVESTIGATION AND TO LAY CHARGES AGAINST THE LEADERS.

THAT IS THE MINISTERS FOR EDUCATION.

IT COULD BE THE CLERICS AND THEY WOULD BE THOSE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE FUNDAMENTAL DECISION TO DEPRIVE GIRLS OF EDUCATION.

WOMEN OF EMPLOYMENT, WOMEN BAND FROM DOING MEDICAL EXAMS AT UNIVERSITIES, WOMEN BAND FROM GOING INTO PUBLIC PLACES A FEW WEEKS AGO, THE SYSTEMATIC ABUSE OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS CONTINUES AND SEEMS TO BE STEPPED UP.

>> YOU KNOW THAT IT'S >> TO SHOW WE WILL NOT TAKE THIS.

>> ONE OF THE ONLY RECOURSE IS A LOT OF WOMEN THINK THEY HAVE IS TO FLEE.

THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY THERE IS A GLOBAL REFUGEE CRISIS AND WHY THE TRAGEDIES ARE INNUMERABLE.

YOU'VE GOT YET ANOTHER VOTE THAT IS CAPSIZE KILLING DOZENS OF PEOPLE.

BEFORE THAT, IT WAS OFF GREASE.

YOU HAVE YOUR OWN COUNTRY, PUTTING ASYLUM-SEEKERS AND REFUGEES AND "SMALL BOAT WRITERS," ONTO UNSANITARY AND UNSAFE BOATS, FIT FOR 200 PEOPLE OR 500 PEOPLE.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF THE POLICY HERE?

>> LET'S BE CLEAR, I DON'T SUPPORT THE BOATS POLICY BEING PRESCRIBED.

LET ME LOOK AT WHAT THAT MEANS FOR AFGHAN GIRLS AND WOMEN.

THERE ARE BUYING A FAST-TRACK ASYLUM SEEKING OFFER CAN BE MADE TO AFGHAN GIRLS AND WOMEN.

THERE ARE TWO PARTICULAR FAST- TRACK SCHEMES FOR REFUGEES OR ASYLUM-SEEKERS TO COME TO OUR COUNTRY.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THE PRESENT POLICY SOMETHING I DON'T SUPPORT BUT THERE ARE WAYS WE CAN HELP AFGHAN GIRLS AND WOMEN EITHER GET EDUCATION WITHIN AFGHANISTAN, LEAVE AFGHANISTAN TO A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY WITH SOME SUPPORT BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT BECOMES NECESSARY AND THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED, THERE ARE TWO SCHEMES TELL PEOPLE GET INTO THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT THE USUAL PROBLEMS.

>> ANOTHER HUGE DRIVER OF REFUGEES PLUS THE WHOLE EXIT AND SHOW CRISIS THE WHOLE WORLD FACES IS CLIMATE CHANGE.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS REALLY CHAOTIC SUMMER OF MASSIVE, OVERWHELMING HEAT, AND HUGE FLUCTUATIONS IN TEMPERATURES AND STORMS.

IT IS REALLY OBVIOUS TO EVEN THE MOST RELUCTANT BELIEVER.

BUT, HERE IN THE UK, BOTH THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT AND THE OPPOSITION APPEARED TO BE DILUTING THEIR COMMITMENT TO CLIMATE MITIGATION.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY YOU THINK THAT'S HAPPENING?

IT IS OBVIOUSLY FOR VOTES.

AND HOW CAN WE GET GOVERNMENTS TO STEP UP INSTEAD OF RETREATING?

>> I'M NOT DIMINISHING MY COMMITMENT TO CLIMATE ADAPTATION AND MITIGATION.

AS CHAIRMAN OF EDUCATION, WHICH IS THE ORGANIZATION THAT HELPS DISPLACED REFUGEE CHILDREN, I THINK YOU WILL KNOW FROM YOUR REPORTING, THAT HE USED TO BE THE CASE THAT MOST CHILDREN, WHO ARE DISPLACED, OR BECAUSE OF CONFLICT AND THAT IS STILL A HUGE ISSUE.

PERHAPS, WITH 40 CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD, THE BIGGER NUMBER NOW IS CLIMATE CHANGE, EITHER THROUGH DROUGHTS OR FLOODS OR FIRES OR THE MELTING OF THE ICE CAPS, WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE DISPERSED ACROSS DIFFERENT CONTINENTS AND DISPLACED AS A RESULT OF THAT AND UNABLE TO GET EDUCATION AND SCHOOLING.

THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS FINANCE THE HELP THAT WE MAKE AVAILABLE TO THE DISPLACED AND THE REFUGEES, PARTICULARLY CHILDREN, TO ENABLE THEM TO HAVE A POSSIBLE START IN LIFE THAT IS BEING DENIED AT THE MOMENT.

I ALSO AGREE WITH YOU THAT THIS WILL BE AN IMPORTANT EVENT BECAUSE IT IS A TEST OF, AFTER ALL THE TALK, AND AFTER ALL THE PROMISES, AND AFTER ALL THE ASPIRATIONS SEND OUT ON PAPER, WHICH MANY HAVE THOUGHT OF BEING RE-WASHING, THE WORLD AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH THE FUNDS THAT ARE NECESSARY AND ALLOW FOR MEDICATION AND ADD A TATIAN TO TAKE PLACE, PARTICULARLY IN THE POOREST COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.

WE HAVE NEVER MET, AS AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE 100 BILLION THAT IS BEEN PROMISED TO DEAL WITH MITIGATION FOR THE WONDERFUL COUNTRIES.

THE LOSS AND DAMAGE FUND HAS HARDLY ANY CONVERTERS TO IT EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SET UP AT THE LAST ONE IN EGYPT.

I THINK THE OIL ECONOMIES OF THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE A PARTICULAR RESPONSIBILITY HERE BECAUSE THE COMP 28 IS IN DUBAI AND UAE.

A PARTICULAR RESPONSIBILITY TO BRING TOGETHER AN OFFER THAT IS A FINANCIAL ONE BASED ON THE MONEY THEY HAVE HAD AS WINFALL PROFITS FROM OIL AND GAS AS WELL AS RESPONSIBILITIES THAT ARE HISTORIC TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM.

>> JUST FINALLY, THEN, YOU'RE WELL KNOWN FOR DRAWING THE GLOBAL COALITION TOGETHER TO COME OUT OF THE FINANCIAL CRISIS.

WHAT IS IT THAT PREVENTS THAT HAPPENING AGAIN, IN A GLOBAL WAY, AROUND CLIMATE?

WHY ISN'T THERE A COMMITMENT BY ALL THE COUNTRIES?

NOT JUST THE POOR, NOT JUST THE RICH GIVING TO THE POOR, BUT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO COME TOGETHER ON CLIMATE?

>> IT IS A RETREAT WORLDWIDE INTO PROTECTIONISM.

INTO NATIONALISM AND INTO MERCANTILISM.

THAT IS BEEN A FEATURE OF THE RECENT YEARS.

IN THE DECADE AFTER 2010, WE STARTED BY HAVING BANDS ON IMPORTS AND BANS ON IMMIGRATION.

NOW, WE HAVE A MORE AGGRESSIVE POLICY PURSUED BY MANY COUNTRIES THAT IS ESSENTIALLY PROTECTIONIST AND NATIONALISTS.

AND WHAT I WOULD BE LOOKING FOR IN COMP 28, YOU HAVE THE G 20 COMING IN INDIA IN SEPTEMBER.

THE IMF AND WORLD BANK MEETING.

WHAT I LOOK FOR IS A MULTILATERALISM.

I LIKE TO SEE COUNTRIES RECOGNIZING THAT THERE ARE COMMON CHALLENGES.

THAT IS WHAT WE PERSUADED PEOPLE TO DO IN 2009.

IT WASN'T JUST AN AMERICAN CRISIS OF BANKING FAILURES.

IT WAS A GLOBAL CRISIS OF FINANCIAL INSTABILITY, AND TO PERSUADE PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE A GLOBAL CRISIS AND PROBLEM, YOU NEED TO COME TOGETHER AND BRING COORDINATED GLOBAL SOLUTIONS.

IT IS THIS DESIRE TO COME TOGETHER THAT HAS TO BE FOSTERED OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND SEVEN COUNTRIES RETREATING INTO THEIR SILOS, DOING THEIR OWN THING AND BLAMING OTHER PEOPLE FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH.

WE NEED TO HAVE A COMMON ASPIRATION TO GET TO SOME AGREEMENT ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE FINANCIALLY ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND DEAL WITH FINANCIAL INSTABILITY AND TO DEAL WITH THE POTENTIAL OF ANOTHER PANDEMIC.

TO DEAL WITH ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT ARISE FROM THE PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

ALL THESE PROBLEMS ARE KROM AND.

>> ON THAT NOTE, PRIME MINISTER BROWN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU >> TURNING TO ANOTHER FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

THIS NON-NEXT TO AFGHANISTAN.

THIS HAS BEEN ALMOST 2 YEARS SINCE THE TRAGIC DEATH OF -- THAT SPARKED PROTEST ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

DESPITE THE CALLS FOR CHANGE, THE GOVERNMENT IS CLAMPING DOWN ON WOMEN, NOT WEARING THE HIJAB.

EVEN TRYING TO PASS A STRICTER LAW.

>> Reporter: IRAN'S WOMEN ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM WITH EVERYDAY ACTS OF DEFIANCE LIKE THIS.

OUT ON THE STREETS WITHOUT THE MANDATORY HAD JOB.

THIS RECENT VIDEO APPEARED TO SHOW A WOMAN HARASSED AND CALLED A CRIMINAL FOR REFUSING TO COVER UP.

THE DAYS OF BEING AFRAID OF YOU ARE OVER SHE SAYS.

>> Reporter: NEARLY A YEAR AFTER THE DEATH OF 22-YEAR-OLD -- THE CUSTODY OF THE SO-CALLED MORALITY POLICE, THE UPRISING SPARKED BY HER DEATH MAY HAVE BEEN CRUSHED BY A BLOODIED CRACKDOWN BUT NOT THE WILL OF THOSE STANDING UP FOR THEIR MOST BASIC RIGHTS.

COUNTLESS WOMEN HAVE BEEN DEFYING THE CLERICAL ESTABLISHMENT CHOOSING NOT TO WEAR THE COMPULSORY HAD JOB.

AND NOW THE REGIME IS LASHING OUT WITH A CAMPAIGN OF RENEWED REPRESSION ANNOUNCING THE RETURN OF MORALITY POLICE PATROLS.

BEING A WOMAN IN IRAN IS NOW HARDER THAN EVER.

BECAUSE OF ALL THE ATTENTION OUR PRIVACY AND SAFETY IS A WISH.

YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED AND CAREFUL ABOUT THE POLICE.

>> Reporter: THIS YOUNG WOMAN WOULD NOT IDENTIFY HERSELF SPOKE TO US FROM INSIDE IRAN.

THE REALITY POLICE ARE MOSTLY IN METRO STATIONS.

SOMETIMES THERE ON THE STREETS.

THEY WARN YOU IF YOU DISOBEY, THEY TAKE VIDEO OR PHOTOS.

AND NORMAL PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE, WORK LIKE PAPARAZZI.

>> Reporter: THAT'S NOT ALL.

AUTHORITIES ARE CONSIDERING AFTER CODING NEW BILL THAT WOULD MAKE FAILURE TO ABIDE BY THE STRICT ISLAMIC DRESS CODE A MORE SEVERE OFFENSE WITH HARSH PENALTIES INCLUDING 5-10 YEAR JAIL SENTENCES AND FINES OF MORE THAN $8000.

THEY MAY BE INTIMIDATED.

BUT AN INTENSIFIED CRACKDOWN IS UNDERWAY.

THIS CHILLING VIDEO RELEASED BY A GROUP AFFILIATED WITH THE SECURITY APPARATUS CAPTURES SOME OF THE TERRIFYING TACTICS.

FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY PURPORTEDLY BEING USED TO IDENTIFY AND THREATEN UNVEILED WOMEN.

>> Reporter: CAMERAS ARE EVERYWHERE.

THOUSANDS OF OTHER CARS CONFISCATED IN CORDING TO AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL AND WOMAN WITHOUT AVAIL ARE BEING DENIED ACCESS TO EDUCATION AND PUBLIC SERVICES.

PERHAPS EVEN MORE DISTURBING IS COURTS HAVE BEEN IMPOSING DEGRADING PUNISHMENTS ON WOMEN INCLUDING COUNSELING SESSIONS FOR "ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOR."

>> Reporter: I CAN BELIEVE THE MORTUARY PUNISHMENT UNTIL I SAW JUDGMENT PAPERS WITH MY OWN EYES.

IT WAS WASHING CORPSES FOR A MONTH.

>> Reporter: ARE YOU AND OTHER WOMEN AROUND YOU SCARED WHEN YOU'RE OUT IN PUBLIC?

THE FIRST DAYS ARE SCARY BUT WITH TIME, THE COURAGE INSIDE EVERYONE GROWS AND NOW NO ONE IS SCARED.

PEOPLE WERE WAITING FOR A SPARK.

AND THAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR.

WE KEEP GOING FOR THE KIDS WHO WERE MURDERED DURING THE PROTESTS.

>> Reporter: MANY LIKE HER SAY THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE HIS JOB.

THIS IS ABOUT STANDING UP TO TYRANNY AND THEY ARE NOT BACKING DOWN.

>> MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IN FREEDOM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TASTED IT.

WE KNOW ABOUT THE PUNISHMENTS BUT WE KNOW EVERYTHING HAS A COST AND IT THIS IS THE COST OF FREEDOM, WE ARE READY TO PAY FOR THAT.

I'M SURE WE'LL SEE IRAN BREATHING AGAIN ONE DAY.

>> THAT WAS CORRESPONDENT -- WITH THE 2024 U.S. PRESIDENTIAL RACE WELL UNDERWAY, DEMOCRACY CONTINUES TO BE TESTED.

TRUMP'S LATEST INDICTMENT GETS TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER.

WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR A SITTING PRESIDENT WHO SPREAD LIES ABOUT THE ELECTION AND ATTEMPTED TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS?

WE HAVE A COMMON LIST FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WE ARE ASSESSING THE CURRENT STATE OF U.S.

POLITICS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING SOME TOUGH COLUMNS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT TRUMP IN THE INDICTMENT.

WITH ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS, STILL MORE THAN 50% OF REPUBLICANS SAY THEY WILL SUPPORT THEM AND YOU SAY HE IS LIKELY TO BECOME THE NOMINEE.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

>> THE ANSWER TO THAT LIES WITH THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE CAPITAL.

AS SOON AS MOST REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS SAID THEY WERE GOING TO RALLY AROUND IT, THAT WAS IT.

AS SOON IT WAS CLEAR THE REPUBLICANS, IN THE SENATE, DID NOT HAVE THE STOMACH TO VOTE TO CONVICT HIM IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY SET UP THE CONDITIONS FOR HIM TO ROCKET BACK TO THE TOP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS THE DE FACTO LEADER.

THERE IS NO SERIOUS EFFORT IN THE WAKE OF JANUARY 6th TO REALLY REMOVE TRUMP FROM THAT POSITION.

SO, IN THE ABSENCE OF THAT EFFORT AND IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY SERIOUS ALTERNATIVE TO TRUMP FOR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, YOU WILL JUST HAVE TRUMP.

>> THERE HAS TO BE A DEEPER REASON.

REPUBLICANS WOULD BE DOING THIS IF THEY DIDN'T FEEL SOME FEELING THAT TRUMP HAS A STRANGLEHOLD ON THEIR PARTY.

WHY DOES HE HAVE THAT?

WAS A DEEPER REASON?

>> I DON'T THINK THE DEEPER REASONS ARE ALL THAT COMPLICATED.

THERE ARE DEEPER REASONS FOR THE EMERGENT OF TRUMP BUT IN TERMS OF HIS HOLD ON REPUBLICAN PARTY, IT IS BASICALLY TWO THINGS.

TRUMP WON.

HE WON THE 2016 ELECTION.

HE DID NOT WIN A POPULAR VOTE VICTORY BUT HE WON THE PRESIDENCY AND WAS A THORN IN THE SIDE OF LIBERALS AND DEMOCRATS AND ANY OTHER AMERICANS FOR THOSE FOUR YEARS.

BOTH THE WINNING AND, TO THE EXTENT, THE CARMEN PARLANCE, OWNED THE LIBS, REALLY ENDEARED HIM TO A LOT OF REPUBLICANS.

HE ESSENTIALLY RESHAPE ITSELF AROUND TRUMP.

THE INTERESTING THING, TRUMP HAS BOTH BEEN ELECTORAL POISON FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BEGINNING IN 2018.

IT IS HIM LOSING CONSECUTIVE NATIONAL ELECTIONS.

BUT FOR MANY REPUBLICANS, THEY DON'T REALLY SEE THE ALTERNATIVE, GIVEN THAT TRUMP, EVEN WHILE LOSING HAS GENERATED MASSIVE TURNOUT AMONGST THE PROPENSITY REPUBLICAN VOTES.

A HUGE TREVELIN TURNOUT THAT NO PRIOR REPUBLICAN NOMINEE HAS BEEN ABLE TO GENERATE WHICH I THINK, IN TERMS OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE LOOKING AT THIS IN HOW TO WIN PURE ELECTRICAL STRATEGY KEY THEY SEE TRUMP AS THEIR BEST BET.

THE WAY THE PARTY CULTURALLY RESHAPED ITSELF AROUND TRUMP, DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, WE HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR THE DOMINATION WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW AMONGST REPUBLICANS.

>> AND YOU SAY THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVES.

OF COURSE, A COUPLE PEOPLE LIKE CHRIS CHRISTIE AND IDA HUTCHISON ARE TRYING TO TAKE TRUMP ON DIRECTLY.

SOME, LITTLE BIT SO, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

BUT, NOBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET ANY TRACTION, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SUPPORT TRUMP AND EIGHT SMALL WAY LIKE RON DeSANTIS.

WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THAT?

>> AGAIN, I REALLY THINK THAT SO MUCH, NOT JUST THIS CURRENT SITUATION WITH TRUMP, LIKELY WINNING THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, BUT GOING BACK TO 2016 IS A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM AMONG REPUBLICAN ELITISTS.

BASICALLY, THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING NOW.

YOU HAD A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM, REPUBLICANS, AFTER JANUARY 6th.

THEY HAD THIS CLEARLY TRANSGRESSIVE PRESIDENT HE DID SOMETHING UNPRECEDENTED IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KNOCK HIM OUT OF POLITICS FOR THE DURATION IF WE VOTE TO CONVICT IN THIS IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

BUT, REPUBLICAN OFFICER HOLDERS COULDN'T FIGURE OUT A WAY TO COME TOGETHER AND MAKE THAT RESULT HAPPEN.

THEY DEFERRED IT.

MAYBE DEMOCRATS WILL BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

THE CORE ISSUE, OR REPUBLICANS, AT NO POINT HAVE THEY EVER REALLY TRIED TO JETTISON TRUMP FROM THEIR ORBIT.

AND, BECAUSE OF HIS SOLID, ROCKSOLID CORE OF SUPPORT, AMONGST REPUBLICANS, THIS ESSENTIALLY GIVES HIM A PLATFORM BY WHICH TO MAKE A BID FOR CONTROLLING THE PARTY.

THIS IS WHAT HE'S DOING.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS LATEST INDICTMENT.

THE THIRD INDICTMENT AND THE ONE THAT THIS SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, JACK SMITH, HAS BROUGHT.

YOU TALKED ABOUT READING THAT INDICTMENT.

THERE WERE PARTS OF IT THAT LEAPT OUT YOU SAY, IN YOUR COLUMN, INCLUDING AN EXCHANGE EVOLVING PATRICK PHILBIN.

EXPLAIN, HE WAS THE DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.

EXPLAIN WHY THAT LEAPT OUT TO YOU?

>> THAT LEAPT OUT TO ME BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS PROFOUNDLY DISTURBING.

IT WAS ANNEXED LIKELY, WILL CONSIST OF WHAT HAPPENS IF THE WHITE HOUSE WERE ABLE TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

AND THE FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL SAID LISTEN IF WE DO THIS, THERE'S GOING TO BE RIOTS IN EVERY CITY IN AMERICA.

AND THE OFFICIAL WHOM HE SPEAKING, COKE CONSPIRATOR FOR SAYS WELL THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE INSURRECTION ACT.

AND, A CASUAL READER MAY NOT RECOGNIZE WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE PREVIOUS YEAR, THE ADMINISTRATION HAD WANTED TO USE THE INSURRECTION ACT, BASICALLY TO USE MILITARY FORCE TO PUT DOWN PROTESTS RELATED TO THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND IN THAT EXCHANGE, YOU GET THE SENSE THAT WAS BEING CONTEMPLATED IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN THE DAYS BEFORE JANUARY 6, WAS BOTH OVERTURNING THE ELECTION AND THEN ONCE AMERICANS UNDERSTANDABLY BEGIN PROTESTING, SENDING IN THE MILITARY TO USE FORCE, POTENTIALLY LETHAL FORCE TO PUT DOWN THE PROTEST.

AND TO ME, WHAT I WROTE IS IT DEMONSTRATES JUST A PROFOUND CONTEMPT FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

FOR AMERICA'S DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS.

FOR THE VERY IDEA OF POPULAR, SELF-GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT RECONSTRUCTING, YOU TALK ABOUT THE INSURRECTION ACT AND EVEN THE LAW UNDER WHICH TRUMP HAS BEEN CHARGED.

IT DATES BACK TO RECONSTRUCTION.

EXPLAIN THAT AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE ECHOES OF RECONSTRUCTION OR MAYBE THEY PERVERSE ECHOES OF RECONSTRUCTION ARE TODAY?

>> THE STATUTE THAT TRUMP IS BEING CHARGED UNDER COMES FROM THE KU KLUX KLAN PLAN ACT OF 1870.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE ACTS PASSED IN 1870 AND 1871 BY THE REPUBLICANS.

IT PROVIDES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO CONVICT OR PROSECUTE PEOPLE ACCUSED OF ATTACKING FREE BLACKS TRYING TO EXERCISE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

THE STATUTE SAYS IT IS A CRIME TO INTERFERE WITH THE EXERCISE OF SOMEONE'S CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHTS.

I THINK THE ECHOES ARE KIND OF CLEAR.

THE INTERVIEW AND EXERCISE OF PEOPLE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IN THE 1860S AND EARLY 1870S, WAS NOT JUST ATTACKING VOTERS AND PREVENTING THEM FROM VOTING AND CASTING A BALLOT.

THEY ARE REALLY ATTACKING ELECTED GOVERNMENTS.

THE RECONSTRUCTION GOVERNMENTS THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH BASED VIOLENT ATTACKS FROM FORMER CONFEDERATES, FROM MEMBERS OF THESE VIGILANTE GROUPS LIKE THE KU KLUX KLAN PLAN AND THE KNIGHTS OF THE WHITE LOTUS.

THERE WERE A BUNCH OF THEM.

THIS IS A CLEAR THING.

DO KU KLUX KLAN ACT WAS PASSED TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY IN THE SOUTH AND IT IS BEING USED, PART OF IT IS BEING USED TODAY TO DEFEND ONE OF THE INSTITUTIONS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE LATEST INDICTMENTS, THERE BEEN THREE OF THEM AND THERE MAY BE A FOURTH RON FROM GEORGIA.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DIDN'T DO MUCH, THEY DIDN'T REALLY PUSH A CASE THAT HARD UNTIL, THE PAST FEW MONTHS, WE'VE HAD THESE INDICTMENTS.

IN SOME WAYS, THERE IS A LOT OF PUSHBACK, ESPECIALLY FROM REPUBLICANS, THAT THIS IS WEAPONIZE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THAT THIS SHOULD BE DECIDED AT THE POLLS AND THIS IS GOING TO OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS IF WE START INDICTING FORMER PRESIDENTS.

WHAT YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I THINK IT WILL OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS IF IT BECOMES A NORM FOR OUTGOING PRESIDENTS TO ATTEMPT TO SEIZE POWER AGAINST THE WILL OF THE VOTERS.

IT WILL OPEN UP A CAN OF WORMS AND A BAD ONE.

I THINK IT WILL HAVE MUCH MORE TO DO WITH THE ATTEMPTED CRUISE AND THE PROSECUTION TO BE PERFECTLY SERIOUS, I THINK THIS IS A RIDICULOUS COMPLAINT.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, RATHER THAN ACCEPT THE TRADITION OF THE UNITED STATES GOING BACK TO THE ELECTION OF 1800, GOING BACK TO OUR FIRST REAL, HIGHLY CONTESTED AND PARTISAN ELECTION WHICH IS FOR THE LOSER TO PEACEFULLY HANDOVER POWER.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, REJECTED THAT.

HE ATTEMPTED TO SUBVERT IT AND DID SO BY INCITING SUPPORTERS TO ATTACK THE CAPITAL AND BY ORGANIZING, WITH CLOSE A's AND OTHER SUPPORTERS, TO TRY TO SUBVERT THE PROCESS OF COUNTING VOTES AND COUNTY ELECTORS.

THAT TO ME IS MORE THAN WORTHY OF PROSECUTION, BOTH FOR ITS OWN SAKE THAT IT IS WRONG AND FORCED RETURN VALUE.

TO TELL FUTURE OFFICEHOLDERS WHO MAY BE IN THE POSITION OF LOSING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THAT YOU CANNOT DO THIS.

THIS IS ACTUALLY HIM HIM A CALL TO WHAT WE THINK AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS.

IF MANY REPUBLICANS WEREN'T SO COMMITTED TO DEFENDING TRUMP AGAINST ALL CHARGES, THEY WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS SIMPLY NOT A PRECEDENT YOU WANT TO ESTABLISH.

THE BALLOT BOX IS NOT THE PLACE TO HANDLE THIS.

WE HANDLE TRUMP AT THE BALLOT BOX AND HE LOST.

THE FACT HE REJECTED THAT LOSS IS WHAT WE ARE RESPONDING TO.

>> THE EFFECTS OF THESE INDICTMENTS, HOWEVER, HAVE BEEN TO RALLY, IT SEEMS, REPUBLICANS TO THE SIDE OF TRUMP.

IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE HE'S GONE UP IN THE POLLS AFTER THESE INDICTMENTS.

AFTER IT SEEMS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING AFTER HIM.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS BACKLASH IS A CONSEQUENCE?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS RALLYING AROUND TRUMP, AS LONG AS REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS AND REPUBLICAN ELITES AND THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT IS WILLING TO SUPPORT AND BACK TRUMP.

I GUESS I'M REPEATING MYSELF A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THAT IS THE CRITICAL VARIABLE.

IF HIGH-LEVEL REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS HAD RESPONDED TO THE INDICTMENT BY SAYING THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD SEE THE SAME RALLY AFFECT.

AFTER THE 2022 MIDTERM ELECTIONS, THERE IS ABOUT A WEEK OR TWO WEEK PERIOD WHERE AFTER THIS SURPRISING LOSS IN THE SENATE, AND THE SNEER LOST IN THE HOUSE, REPUBLICANS WERE OPENLY TALKING ABOUT HOW TRUMP WAS A POOR LOSER.

HOW HE NEEDED TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE FOR THE PARTY.

HOW THEY NEEDED TO MOVE PAST TRUMP.

WHAT DO WE SEE?

IT BEGAN TO DECLINE.

IT BEGAN TO CLIMB BECAUSE VOTERS TOOK THE SIGNAL.

THE ONLY WAY WE COULD'VE AVOIDED THIS BACKLASH IS FOR REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST TRUMP.

AND THE IDEA, THE OPTIMAL POINT TO HAVE DONE THAT WAS RIGHT AFTER JANUARY 6.

IT WAS A SLIM PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THAT WAS A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR REPUBLICAN OFFICEHOLDERS TO, YOU KNOW, DOES THEIR HANDS OF TRUMP ONCE AND FOR ALL AND MOVE ON.

ONCE THEY DECIDED NOT TO DO THAT, I THINK THEY SET IN MOTION THIS CURRENT CHAIN OF EVENTS.

>> YOU SAY THAT IT IS DIFFICULT FOR AMERICANS TO REALLY BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY, AS WE KNOW IT, COULD BE IN TROUBLE.

WHY ARE AMERICANS HAVING A ISSUE UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY?

>> I THINK IT IS PARTIALLY A PRODUCT OF OUR GOOD FORTUNE YOU MIGHT SAY.

I MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN MAKING THESE PEACEFUL TRANSFERS OF POWER SINCE THE 1800s.

WE HAVE THE OLDEST CONTINUING OPERATING CONSTITUTION AMONG THE DEMOCRACIES.

WE ARE THE OLDEST DEMOCRACY IF YOU WANT TO USE THAT TERM BROADLY.

AT LEAST THE OLDEST COUNTRY WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS DETERMINED BY SOME DEGREE OF POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY.

I THINK WE HAVE GOTTEN USED TO THIS IDEA THAT THIS IS THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE.

BUT IT'S NOT.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME AMERICANS, NOT JUST IMMIGRANTS, RECENTLY OR OTHERWISE FROM COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN ALL THIRDHAND STATES OR AUTOCRACIES.

THEY ARE PUTTING AMERICANS, THAT HAVE A VERY REAL RECOGNITION THAT DEMOCRACY IS NOT GUARANTEED.

BLACK AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY TO GO BACK TO RECONSTRUCTION, THEY EXPERIENCE DEMOCRACY FOR SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN LOST IT FOR NEARLY A CENTURY.

AND, THEY ARE CONTINUOUSLY WORKING AND FIGHTING TO ENSURE THEIR ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS NOT RESTRICTED.

WE HAVE THIS HOMEGROWN EXPERIENCE WITH AUTOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS, WITH AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS, WITH THE TAX ON DEMOCRACY.

I THINK ISSUED IN FORM OUR SENSE OF ACTUALLY HOW DURABLE THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC EXPERIMENT IS.

IT IS NOT AS DURABLE AS WE'D LIKE TO THINK AND REQUIRES REAL VIGILANCE TO PROTECT IT.

>> THIS SET OF INDICTMENTS ABOUT TRUMP SEEMS TO PLAY INTO SOMETHING LARGER, WHICH IS A REAL DEEP DIVISION, UNDERLYING DIVISIONS IN OUR SOCIETY, BASED ON RESENTMENT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE OUTCOME OF THIS SITUATION, WHETHER OR NOT HE GETS CONVICTED, OR ACQUITTED OR PARDONED, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WILL PLAY INTO THE DIVISIONS AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO HEAL SOME OF THOSE DIVISIONS?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS A QUESTION I'M NOT SURE I REALLY HAVE A GREAT ANSWER FOR.

MY VIEW OF THE CURRENT SITUATION IS IT WILL BE A LOT OF PUSHING THROUGH.

A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS REJECT THE IDEA OF A PRESIDENT OVERTURNING THE ELECTION.

THEY REJECTED TRUMP TWICE.

AND, IF NEXT YEAR, IT IS TRUMP AND BIDEN AGAIN AND BIDEN WINDS AGAIN, WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTE, THEN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WILL REJECT HIM AGAIN.

THAT COULD LEAD TO INCREASED DIVISION.

THERE WILL LIKELY BE PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THIS WAS AN UNJUST RESULT.

WHATEVER REASON, TRUMP IS ENTITLED TO POWER.

AND I THINK THE RESPONSE TO THAT WILL HAVE TO BE, PUSH THROUGH IT.

I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO, AT THIS MOMENT, TO BRING IN THOSE AMERICANS, THE VOTERS WHO HAPPENING DEVOTED TO TRUMP'S POLITICAL POWER AND POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A VERY UNSATISFYING ANSWER BUT IT'S THE BEST ONE I HAVE.

SOMETIMES YOU ARE IN A POLITICAL SITUATION WHERE IT'S NOT A TON OF GOOD OPTIONS AND YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST TO WORK THE MATERIALS YOU HAVE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NOW FOR A CHANGE OF SCENERY WE GO TO BROADWAY.

WHEN STEVEN SPIELBERG RELEASED HIS 1975 THRILLER "JAWS," IT WAS A MEGAHIT.

BUT THE CAST AND CREW ENCOUNTERED ROUGH SEAS DURING FILL ME.

THE CAST WERE OFTEN AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS.

NOW, THE PLAY BASED ON THAT BEHIND THE SCENES DRAMA IS OPENING ON BROADWAY, AFTER A SUCCESSFUL WEST RUN IN LONDON.

IAN SHOT:WROTE AND STARS IN THE SHOW REPRISING HIS FATHER, ROBERT SHAW, AS THIS SHARK HUNTER IN SPIELBERG'S FILM.

THE SHOW WAS PERFORMED HERE IN LONDON'S WEST END IN 2021 WHICH IS WHEN I BOARDED THE ICONIC OR,.

HERE'S OUR CONVERSATION.

>> IAN SHOCK, WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO MANY PEOPLE KNOW JAWS.

YOU MUST HAVE A LOT OF FANS WHO COME TO THIS PLAY.

WHAT DID YOU KNOW ABOUT JAWS AND WHEN DID YOU KNOW IT?

>> WELL, I WAS ON THE SET WHEN I WAS A LITTLE BOY.

YOU KNOW, I MUST'VE BEEN FIVE?

I WASN'T A -- I WAS NOT USUALLY IMPRESSED.

IT WAS NOT A PARTICULARLY INTERESTING PLACE TO BE EXCEPT I MET BRUCE, THE SHARK.

AND, THAT WAS SCARY.

>> WAS A HUGE?

DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR A FIVE-YEAR-OLD?

>> ENORMOUS.

EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T MOVING.

IT HAD A BLANKET OVER ITS HEAD.

IT WAS SCARY.

>> AND OF COURSE, THE SHARK IN THE FILM, IN THE STORY, ACTUALLY EACH HER FATHER ALIVE.

IT BITES HIM IN TOO.

WENT IS ROBERT SHAW'S CHARACTER.

>> YEAH.

>> WAS A NIGHTMARISH FOR YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS NIGHTMARISH WAS THE FACT OF SHARKS.

I REMEMBER HAVING A NIGHTMARE ABOUT THEM SWIMMING AROUND MY BED AND CALLING OUT FROM MY DAD.

I HAD SEEN HIM BEING EATEN IN THE MOVIE.

BUT, I WAS ABLE TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION ON THAT LEVEL.

I KNEW HE WASN'T REALLY EATEN BUT, EVEN SO, THE MOVIE HAD INSTILLED IN ME A TERROR OF SHARKS.

>> SO, THE OBVIOUS QUESTION I GUESS IS WHY WOULD YOU DO A WHOLE PLAY ABOUT THE SHARK?

>> A FEW SEPARATE COINCIDENCE I THINK.

I ALWAYS LOVE THE FILM.

THEN, I MET RICHARD DREYFUS.

HE WAS AUDITIONING, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH PART, I THINK IT WAS HAMLET.

>> HE WAS DIRECTING HAMLET >> HE WAS DIRECTING.

>> HE WAS A KEY PART OF THE ORIGINAL FILM JAWS.

>> HE PLAYED HOOPER AND JAWS.

I LOVED HIM AS AN ACTOR.

>> I WILL NOT WASTE MY TIME ARGUING WITH A MAN LINING UP TO BE A HOT LUNCH.

>> I HAD EITHER FORGOTTEN OR DIDN'T KNOW THAT ROBERT AND RICHARD CLASHED ON THE SET.

>> THAT IS KIND OF AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

THEY DIDN'T SEEM TO LIKE EACH OTHER AT ALL.

>> IT WAS COMPLICATED.

BECAUSE THERE WAS AN INFECTION THERE BUT IT WAS DEFINITELY I THINK RICHARD WAS TRAUMATIZED A LITTLE BY ROBERT, OR TRAUMATIZED LOT BY ROBERT.

UM, BECAUSE HIS REACTION WHEN I INTRODUCE MYSELF, I WAS EXPECTING TO GET A HUG OR SOMETHING.

HIS REACTION WAS AS IF I PUNCHED HIM IN THE STOMACH I THINK.

>> I TELLING HIM, I'M ROBERT SHAW'S SON.

THAT LED TO YOU WANTING TO DO THIS PLAY?

>> NO.

I STORE THAT PIECE OF INFORMATION AWAY.

IT LED ME ONTO READING THE JAWS NOVEL WHICH IS CALLED THE SCREEN LATER.

AND, THAT WAS FASCINATING AND IT UNCOVERED, YOU KNOW, WHAT I HAD FORGOTTEN OR DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE WHOLE STORY OF ROBERT AND RICHARD'S RELATIONSHIP ON THE SET, WHICH I FOUND FASCINATING.

>> WHY WAS YOUR FATHER SO HARSH ON RICHARD DREYFUS?

HE DID REALLY SILLY PRANKS LIKE CLIMB UP THE MAST AND JUMP OFF INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE SEA.

WHAT YOU THINK THE REASON WAS FOR HIM TORMENTING HIS COSTAR?

>> I THINK IT WAS A FEW THINGS.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE, AS WE SAID, THE PRESSURES WERE PILING ON.

THEY WERE GOING OVER TIME AND THE SHARK WASN'T WORKING.

THE FRUSTRATIONS WERE BUILDING.

THERE WAS THIS ATMOSPHERE RIPE FOR FIGHTING.

ROBERT WAS DRINKING.

I THINK HE FELT, THEIR PERSONALITIES WERE SO DIFFERENT.

HE FELT THAT RICHARD WAS ARROGANT AND BRASH AND HAD NOT EARNED HIS STRIPES.

AND, HE WAS AN ESTABLISHED ACT WHO HAD FOCUSED ON THE HARD WORK AND HAD COME ALONG TO THIS POINT.

AND, I THINK HE WAS, HE FELT HE NEEDED TO SCHOOL RICHARD A LITTLE BIT.

>> FROM WHAT I READ, FROM THE LOGS, HE THOUGHT HE GOT A BETTER PERFORMANCE OUT OF RICHARD AND EVERYBODY.

>> THAT'S THE OTHER THEORY.

>> DO YOU BUY THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S TRUE THAT THEY DID HAVE A FANTASTIC CHEMISTRY ON SCREEN.

IT CAN'T HAVE HURT THAT.

IT MUST'VE HELPED THAT.

>> OBVIOUSLY, THEY MADE A BEAUTIFUL MOVIE IN THE END.

VERY SUCCESSFUL.

BUT THE DYSFUNCTION, IN TERMS OF BRUCE THE SHARK BREAKING DOWN, IN TERMS OF THIS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR FATHER AND THE OTHER STAR THE FILM, RICHARD DREYFUS, AND THERE WAS ROY SCHEIDER.

IS THAT WHAT INTERESTED YOU?

>> THERE WAS A LOT OF STRESS.

DRAMA IS ABOUT STRESS I THINK.

SEEING WHAT PEOPLE DO IN THESE SITUATIONS.

IF EVERYONE IS SITTING AROUND GETTING ALONG HAPPILY, IT IS NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING.

THE SHARK WAS BROKEN.

THE SHOOT SPIRALED OVER BUDGET AND OVER TIME.

THEY WERE FILMING ON THE OCEAN.

ON A BOAT -- >> KIND OF LIKE WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW, MAKE-BELIEVE, WE ARE ON A BOAT.

IT IS AMAZING SET.

>> WITH REAL SEASICKNESS.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR AUDIENCE REACTS TO THIS.

WHEN I WATCHED IT, I GOT A LITTLE SEASICK BECAUSE THE OCEAN IS MOVING.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE UPSET THEY DEFTLY FELT MOTION.

>> TALKING ABOUT THE AUDIENCE, THERE'S A LOT OF JAWS FANS.

IT IS A CULT MOVIE.

DO YOU GET REACTION FROM THE LIVE AUDIENCE?

>> ONE TIME, IT IS EMBARRASSING, I ENTERED AND THERE WAS A LITTLE SORT OF WHOOPING REACTION.

I THINK THEY WERE SO PLEASED TO SEE ONE OR TWO OF THEM, THE HARD-CORE FANS, PLEASE TO SEE QUINT BACK.

>> YOU DO LOOK VERY MUCH LIKE ROBERT SHAW.

WAS IT ALWAYS A BLESSING?

MANY KIDS, A FAMOUS AND VERY SUCCESSFUL PARENTS, OBVIOUSLY FEEL THEY HAVE A LOT TO LIVE UP TO.

>> YES.

>> DID YOU?

IMAGINE TAKING ON THIS?

>> WITH THIS, I WAS VERY RELUCTANT TO DO IT.

WHEN ALL THE SEPARATE COINCIDENCE CAME TOGETHER AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS A STORY TO TELL, UM, I WAS VERY, I WAS RELUCTANT TO TELL IT.

IT TOOK A LOT OF PERSUASION, FROM OTHER PEOPLE, TO PUSH ME INTO WRITING IT.

>> BECAUSE OF?

>> BECAUSE OF THE FACT I DIDN'T WANT TO GET IT WRONG.

I SPENT MOST OF MY LIFE AVOIDING ASSOCIATION WITH MY FATHER, TRYING TO CARVE MY OWN PATH.

UM, AND THEN TO PLAY HIM, TO WRITE ABOUT HIM, UM, I DIDN'T WANT TO JUDGE HIM BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I DIDN'T WANT TO PUSH HIM ON A PEDESTAL.

>> AND, PARTICULARLY POINTEDLY, YOU DECIDED TO GRAPPLE WITH THE OVER DRINKING.

YOUR FATHER DRANK A LOT.

AND I ASSUME HE WAS AN ALCOHOLIC?

>> HE WAS, YES.

>> AND YOU GRAPPLED WITH HOW MUCH OF THAT TO SHOW?

WHETHER THAT WAS BUTCHERING THE FAMILY?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, YEAH.

I MEAN I FELT ANGUISHED AT TIMES, IN THE PROCESS, BECAUSE I FELT IF HE GOT THE TONE WRONG, YOU KNOW, THAT IT WOULD BE A DISASTER.

>> I WAS REALLY INTERESTED TO READ SOMETHING YOU TOLD, IN A DIFFERENT INTERVIEW.

YOU TALKED ABOUT WORKING-CLASS ACTORS DRINKING HEAVILY.

AND YOU SURMISED IT MIGHT BE A REACTION TO THESE REALLY MACHO DUDES HAVING TO WEAR, AS YOU PUT IT, TIGHTS AND MAKEUP FOR SHAKESPEARE IN THAT KIND OF STUFF.

AND HOW THIS WAS THEIR WAY OF CLAIMING THEIR MANHOOD, THE DRINKING.

DO YOU FEEL THAT WAY?

>> I DO FEEL THAT WAY.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

IT IS A FEELING I HAVE THAT THEY FELT, YOU KNOW, THAT PART OF THEM FELT UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THEIR FEMININITY OF THE PROFESSION.

WHICH I DON'T THINK ACTORS FEEL SO MUCH NOW.

I THINK WE HAVE GONE PAST THAT.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO THE FILM AND PLAY A LITTLE CLIP ABOUT THE WHOLE MEANING OF LIFE.

WHAT IS THIS FILM ABOUT?

>> WE THINK IT'S ABOUT?

>> WHAT?

>> THIS MOVIE, THIS LEAP MOVIE?

IT HAS TO BE ABOUT SOMETHING.

EVERYTHING IS ABOUT SOMETHING.

I THINK IT IS ABOUT THE SUBCONSCIOUS >> >> SAY IT AGAIN?

>> SHARKS OF THESE ANCIENT CREATURES, RIGHT?

THEY REPRESENT THE PRIMAL FEAR IN ALL OF US.

ALL OF THE FREUDIAN .

MY THERAPIST IS ALWAYS GOING ON ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS WHAT THE SHARK IS.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> THAT IS AN INTERESTING THEORY.

>> ALL RIGHT, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S ABOUT?

BACK I THINK IT IS ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY.

>> WHAT?

>> WHEN THE GOVERNMENT PUT PROFITS BEFORE PEOPLE'S LIVES, AND YOU CAN'T GET RID OF THE JERKS, YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THE MESS YOURSELF.

>> WELL.

THAT'S DEEP.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOU, ROBERT?

>> IT'S ABOUT A SHARK.

>> WHAT'S IT REALLY ABOUT?

BACK IT'S REALLY ABOUT A SHARK.

DON'T READ ANYTHING INTO IT.

IT IS A MACHINE FOR MAKING MONEY.

DO YOU THINK THEY WILL TALK ABOUT THIS IN 40 YEARS?

>> WHAT IS THIS FILM ABOUT FOR YOU?

AND THE PLAY?

>> NOBODY HAS ASKED ME THAT QUESTION BECAUSE I DO HAVE MY OWN LITTLE THEORY AND I DON'T KNOW, OF COURSE IT IS JUST ABOUT A SHARK.

BUT I DO THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF VIETNAM IN THERE.

AT THE TIME, THAT WAS WHAT WAS GOING ON.

>> LOOK AT THIS.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS PAPER WAS A PROP.

THIS IS NIXON RESIGNS.

THIS IS 1974, THE HEIGHT OF WATERGATE.

>> NOT LONG AGO, I WATCH KEN BURNS' DOCUMENTARY ON VIETNAM.

IT WAS SPELLBINDING.

VIEWERS THESE YOUNG MEN WHO ARE BEING SENT OFF AND DYING AND DYING AND DYING.

TO THIS FARAWAY LAND AND PEOPLE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT WAS HAPPENING.

THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP I THINK BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS.

>> THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD THAT.

THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

THIS IS THE FAMOUS USS INDIANAPOLIS SPEECH THAT IS DELIVERED BY ROBERT SHAW'S CHARACTER.

>> SOMETIMES, THE SHARK LOOKS INTO YOUR EYES.

THE THING ABOUT A SHARK, THEY HAVE LIFELESS EYES, BLACK GUYS.

HE COMES AT YOU, HE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE LIVING UNTIL HE BITES YOU.

>> WHY WAS THAT SO IMPORTANT, THAT SPEECH?

>> I THINK IT WAS, IT IS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE FILM AND IT IS OFTEN CITED AS ONE OF BEING, AS BEING ONE OF THE MOST COMPELLING SCENES IN CINEMA HISTORY.

UM, I THINK IT IS PIVOTAL BECAUSE IT REALLY EXPLAINS QUINT AND REALLY ROOTS HIM DOWN AND YOU UNDERSTAND AND HAVE SYMPATHY, I THINK, WITH THE CHARACTER AT THAT POINT.

AND IT COMPLETELY CHANGES THE TONE OF THE FILM.

>> JUST TELL ME.

THIS IS A PHENOMENAL SET.

AND THAT IDEA OF THE OCEAN IN THIS BOAT.

WAS THIS SET OBVIOUS TO YOU OR DID IT COME WITH A LOT OF TALKING?

>> THE OR,, THE INTERIOR OF THE OR, WAS FRONT AND CENTER IN MY MIND WRITING THE PLAY.

>> THE ORCA BEING THIS BOAT?

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE INDIANAPOLIS SPEECH AND ROBERT WAS SITTING WHERE YOU ARE, LOOKING THAT WAY.

SO, THAT WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE CENTER POINT.

YOU KNOW, THE STRESS OF BEING CONFINED, THE FACT THAT THE SHOOT WENT ON FOR 159 DAYS MEANT THAT THAT WAS A USEFUL, DRAMATIC DEVICE.

>> AND FINALLY, I NOTICE YOU CALL HIM ROBERT THROUGHOUT OUR INTERVIEW.

YOU DON'T SAY DAD.

DO YOU THINK ROBERT, DAD, WOULD'VE BEEN PROUD OF THIS PLAY?

WHAT WOULD HE THOUGHT OF THE PLAY?

>> IT IS LIKE A QUANTUM PHYSICS QUESTION.

WITH HIM HERE, IT WOULDN'T EXIST.

IT IS ABOUT THE LOSS OF HIM.

PARTLY.

HE TALKS ABOUT THE LOSS OF HIS FATHER IN THE PLAY.

AND, WHEN I'M DOING THAT, I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK OF THE LOSS OF HIM.

SO I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER.

I HOPE WE DON'T DO HIM A DISSERVICE.

>> HAVE YOU HEARD FROM THE ONLY SURVIVING CAST MEMBER, RICHARD DREYFUS?

>> NO.

WE HAVEN'T.

I HAVEN'T.

I WOULD LOVE TO, I LOVE TO MEET UP WITH HIM AGAIN.

>> WELL, IAN SHAW, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

REALLY ENTERTAINING.

REALLY A GREAT PLAY.

>> AND AMERICAN CLASSIC COMING TO BROADWAY AFTER A SUCCESSFUL WEST AND RUN.

THAT IS IT FOR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ ARMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FOR NOW.

♪ ♪