August 14, 2023

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> SEEMS LIKE A NIGHTMARE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO WAKE UP FROM.

>> AMERICA'S DEADLIEST FIRE IN MORE THAN A CENTURY.

AS THE DESPERATE SEARCH FOR LIFE CONTINUES ON MAUI, WE GET THE LATEST.

>>> THEN, POLAND'S MILITARY MIGHT IS ON DISPLAY, AS THE COUNTRY RAMPS UP FOR ITS ARMED SERVICES DAY AND ANNOUNCING IT IS SENDING 10,000 TROOPS TO THE BELARUSIAN BORDER.

I DISCUSS WITH THE POLISH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S. >>> AND THE ONES WE SENT AWAY.

WRITER JEN SENIOR TELLS ME ABOUT THE DISCOVERY OF HER DISABLED AUNT, WHO WAS INSTITUTIONALIZED AS A BABY.

WHY HER STORY IS TOUCHING SO MANY.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> IT IS INARGUABLE THAT THEY FACE A CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

>> JASON STANLEY TELLS HARI WHAT HE LEARNED BY TAKING HIS COURSE ON FASCISM TO KYIV.

>>> AND FINALLY, A VISIT TO THE SITE OF JULIUS CAESAR'S MURDER AND THE THEATER OF A MURDER.

WHY ROME IS OPENING UP ITS HISTORY LIKE NEVER BEFORE.

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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE.

IT'S AMERICA'S DEADLIEST FIRE MORE THAN 100 YEARS.

AT LEAST 96 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN MAUI, HAWAII, AFTER WILDFIRES FUELED BY POWERFUL WINDS TORE ACROSS THE ISLAND AT SPEEDS OF A MILE A MINUTE.

YOU CAN SEE HERE THE TERRIBLE IMPACT ON THE HISTORIC TOWN OF LAHAINA, WHICH BECAME RUINS OVERNIGHT.

AS SEARCH AND RESCUE EFFORTS CONTINUE, IT IS BELIEVED THAT THE DEATH TOLL WILL GROW.

ISLAND RESIDENTS WHO SURVIVED HAVE LOST FAMILY AND FRIENDS TO THE FIRES, AS WELL AS LIVELIHOODS.

TAKE A LISTEN TO THIS FIREFIGHTER DESCRIBE WHAT THE SITUATION IS LIKE.

>> SEEMED LIKE AN APOCALYPSE AND EVERYTHING SEEMED TO BE ON FIRE AND -- YEAH, I'M NOT GOING TO LIE, IT WAS REALLY HARD TO FOCUS AT TIMES, BUT WE HAD A JOB TO DO, AND STOOD BY PEOPLE THAT WATCHED THEIR HOUSES BURN AND THEY KEPT CONTINUING TO FIGHT.

>> CORRESPONDENT MIKE VALERIO HAS THE LATEST FROM HAWAII.

>> Reporter: WITH A CLIMBING DEATH TOLL, THE GRIEF ON THE ISLAND OF MAUI IS PALPABLE.

>> I LOST FRIENDS IN THERE, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE GOING BACK TO GET THEIR ANIMALS, YOU KNOW, AND SHE DIED.

>> Reporter: THE DEADLIEST WILDFIRES IN THE UNITED STATES IN MORE THAN A CENTURY LEAVING BEHIND NOTHING BUT ASH AND DEVASTATION.

>> SO, I LOST PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING EXCEPT FOR WHAT I COULD GRAB ON MY WAY OUT.

I'M NOT GOING TO GO LOOK AT MY HOME OR ANYTHING, I'VE SEEN THE VIDEOS, THERE'S NOTHING LEFT.

>> Reporter: BUT FRUSTRATION, TOO, IS MOUNTING.

THERE ARE GROWING QUESTIONS OVER THE ISLAND'S EMERGENCY RESPONSE.

>> THERE'S NO WARNING AT ALL, THERE'S NOT A -- A SIREN, NOT A PHONE ALERT, NOT A -- NOTHING.

>> Reporter: CONFUSION OVER WHEN AND HOW PEOPLE COULD RETURN TO SURVEY THEIR HOMES.

>> AND I WAITED IN LINE FOR 4 1/2 HOURS, THINKING THAT I COULD GET THROUGH.

>> Reporter: AND NOW, A RISING FEAR OVER WHAT COMES NEXT FOR THOUSANDS WHO HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO.

>> WE'RE SHORT ON HOUSING HERE.

WE JUST WENT THROUGH A NIGHTMARE AND WE'RE ABOUT TO GO THROUGH ANOTHER NIGHTMARE, TRYING TO BASICALLY NOT STAY HOMELESS.

>> Reporter: HAWAII'S GOVERNOR SURVEYING THE AFFECTED AREAS WITH FEMA ON SATURDAY.

WHILE THERE IS NO OFFICIAL ESTIMATE YET, HE SUSPECTS THE LOSSES COULD APPROACH $6 BILLION.

BUT VOWS THE ISLAND WILL RECOVER AS A FAMILY.

>> COME AT THIS LIKE AN OHANA.

BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE IN THE SHORT-TERM, HEARTBREAKING.

IN THE LONG-TERM, WE'LL REBUILD TOGETHER.

>> Reporter: AND I WANT TO BRING US BACK TO THE FIRST WOMAN WE HEARD FROM, HER NAME IS SUSAN, AND I THINK THAT SHE SPOKE FOR A WHOLE HOST OF PEOPLE WHO PASSED THROUGH THE CHECKPOINT HOURS AGO, THAT WANTED TO CONVEY TO EVERYBODY WATCHING US AROUND THE WORLD, EUROPE, ASIA, AFRICA, THE REST OF THE NORTH AMERICAN MAINLAND, THAT MAUI IS NOT JUST AN IDEA, AN ISOLATED PLACE.

IT'S NOT JUST A MOVIE SET.

A SETTING FOR A SHOW.

THIS PLACE IS THE SOUL AND IDENTITY OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO BELOVE THIS CHERISHED CORNER OF THE WORLD, AND THE SUFFERING HERE IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WANT EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD TO KNOW ABOUT, THAT THIS ISN'T A HASSON COMMUNITY, THIS IS A COMMUNITY OF HARD-WORKING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAVE THE TRADITION OF THE, YOU KNOW, OLD ROYAL HAWAIIAN KINGDOM, WHICH EXISTED UP UNTIL THE LATE 19th CENTURY, AND VESTIGES OF THAT MAY BE LOST FOREVER.

SO, THEY JUST WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THIS WAS OUTSIDE THE REALM OF THEIR SHARED SENSE OF POSSIBILITY, AND THAT DISASTERS THAT WERE ONCE UNTHINKABLE, AS WE'VE SEEN ACROSS EUROPE THIS SUMMER, ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, THEY TRULY CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE.

AND THE HUMAN CONSEQUENCES ARE TRULY IN CALL TRULY IN EWABLE.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A RESPONSE ON WHY WASN'T MORE WAS DONE FOR RESIDENTS.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY EXCUSES FOR THIS TRAGEDY, BUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS LAUNCHED A REVIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH THOSE SIRENS AND SOME OF THE OTHER ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN, SO, THAT IS HAPPENING.

>> SO, MIKE, WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

THERE ARE HEROIC FIRST RESPONDERS THERE, AND I DON'T WANT TO DENY THE EFFORTS THAT WERE MADE BY FIREFIGHTERS.

ONE WAS REPORTING THAT THERE JUST WASN'T ENOUGH WATER IN THE HYDRANTS THEMSELVES, AND SAID THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THESE TOWNS IS JUST VERY LIMITED AND ARCHAIC.

>> Reporter: I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MANY COMPLICATED RESPONSES THAT COULD -- THAT COULD ANSWER THAT QUESTION AS TO WHAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE?

SO, LET'S START WITH THE SIRENS, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE IS THE SENSE THAT SOMETHING COULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

IF POWER WAS OUT, THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN, IF HAWAII, AND IT DOES, BOAST THIS WORLD-CLASS SYSTEM OF TSUNAMI SIRENS, WHY NOT TURN THEM ON?

SO, WE'VE BEEN ASKING THAT TO POLICE OFFICERS AT SEVERAL CHECKPOINTS THROUGHOUT THE ISLAND, AND THEY HAVE TOLD US, WELL, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, AGAIN, IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS JUST FLIPPING A SWITCH.

YOU HAVE TO COORDINATE WITH AN OFFICE OVER HERE, AN OFFICE OVER THERE ON A DIFFERENT CORNER OF THE ISLAND, AND THEN ACTUALLY LOCALS, SOME LOCALS HAVE SAID, WE'RE CONDITIONED TO GO TO HIGHER GROUND WHEN THESE ALARMS GO OFF, SO, WOULD IT HAVE HELPED?

WOULD WE HAVE BEEN MORE CONFUSED TO GO TO HIGHER GROUND WHEN THIS WIND EVENT WAS HAPPENING?

BUZZ FOR AS MANY PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT, THERE ARE THE OTHERS WHO ARE INCONSOLABLE AND SAY, WE JUST WANTED TO KNOW SOMETHING, BECAUSE AS THEY SAY, WE WENT ABOUT WITH COCONUT WIRELESS, SOMEBODY GOING DOOR TO DOOR, SAYING, WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE, WE HAVE TO RUN.

THE ALARM WOULD HAVE LET THEM KNOW SOMETHING WAS WRONG.

AND I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE STUNNING WITH THE STOCK OF THIS UTILITY PLUMMETING IN EARLY HOURS TRADING IN NEW YORK, THE LAWSUIT AGAINST HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC, WITH A COUPLE THAT LIVES IN LAHAINA, REPRESENTED BY THREE LAW FIRMS, SAYING THAT THE UTILITY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, WITH WINDS REACHING 130 KILOMETERS AN HOUR, WIND GUSTS, TO TURN OFF THEIR WIRES IN SOME AREAS OF THE ISLAND, BECAUSE OF THE DANGER OF THESE POWER POLES BEING BLOWN OVER AND LIVE, YOU KNOW, WIRES, POTENTIALLY SNAPPING AND WITH THE SNAP, A SPARK SETTING DRY GRASS ON FIRE.

SO, THAT -- THE SEARCH AND THE NEED FOR ACCOUNTABILITY IS THERE, AND IT'S BEEN STRIKING HOW ELECTED OFFICIALS LIKE SENATOR HIRONO AND OTHER MORE MUNICIPAL AUTHORITIES IN MAUI HAVE NOT SAID WHAT THEY COULD HAVE DONE BETTER.

THEY'RE DEFERRING TO, YEAH, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS INVESTIGATION LAUNCHED BY THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO KEEP ON SAYING THAT, WHEN THERE IS THIS SIMMERING OUTRAGE, AGAIN, IT'S NOT PRIVATE, IT IS VOCAL, AND ESPECIALLY, BIANNA, IF THIS DEATH TOLL GOES OVER 100, AND MUCH HIGHER, WHEN THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF BUILDINGS THAT HAVE YET TO BE SEARCHED, AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PRESUMED MISSING, BEING ON THIS ISLAND AND KNOWING THE PEOPLE OF MAUI, THEY WILL NOT STAND FOR IT.

AND THIS WOULD BE ONLY THE BEGINNING OF THE OUTRAGE THAT IS EXPRESSED TO US AND TO OUR MEDIA PARTNERS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

>> AND SADLY, THAT DEATH TOLL IS LIKELY TO RISE, AS WE KNOW, JUST 3% OF THE FIRE ZONE HAS BEEN SEARCHED FOR SURVIVORS.

THE WORST FIRE THERE IN NEARLY A CENTURY.

THOSE RESIDENTS DESERVE ANSWERS.

MIKE VALERIO, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> WELL, TURNING TO EUROPE NOW.

POLAND IS GEARING UP FOR ITS ARMED FORCES DAY ON TUESDAY.

THE ANNUAL EVENT, WHICH SHOWS OFF THE COUNTRY'S MILITARY PROWESS.

IT COMES JUST AS WARSAW ANNOUNCED IT WILL BE SENDING 10,000 TROOPS TO ITS BORDER WITH BELARUS.

POLAND IS ONE OF NATO'S MOST FERVENT SUPPORTERS OF UKRAINE AND IS RAISING THE ALARM ABOUT WAGNER FORCES IN THAT REGION, WHICH HAVE GROWN SIGNIFICANTLY SINCE THE FAILED REBELLION IN JUNE.

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS MAREK MAGIEROWKSI, THE POLISH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S. WHY DOES POLAND WANT TO SEND THE TROOPS TO ITS BORDER WITH BELARUS?

>> I'M SO PROFOUNDLY PROUD, SEEING THOSE IMAGES OF THE ABRAMS TANKS ROLLING ON THE STREETS OF POLAND'S CAPITAL, AHEAD OF TOMORROW'S MILITARY PARADE, IT'S ANOTHER PROOF OF OUR STEADFAST ALLIANCE OF THIS EXTREMELY STRONG BOND WHICH EXISTS, HAS ALWAYS EXISTED A ACTUALLY, BETWEEN POLAND AND AMERICA.

TO OUR ENGAGEMENT IN THE BORDER AREA, ALONG THE POLISH/BELARUSIAN YAN BORDER, WE ARE DEPLOYING MORE UNITS TO THAT AREA, BECAUSE WE CONSIDER IT TO BE AN OBLIGATION AND OUR DUTY, NOT ONLY TO DEFEND OURSELVES, BUT ALSO TO PROTECT EXTERNAL BORDERS OF NATO AND EUROPEAN UNION, IN THE FACE OF RUSSIA'S AND BELARUS'S GROWING AGGRESSIVENESS.

>> WHAT SIGNS, ASIDE FROM WHAT WE'RE SEEING PUBLICLY, AND THAT IS EVEN PRESIDENT LUKASHENKOER RESPONSIBLY SUGGESTING THAT HE HAD TO PULL BACK WAGNER FORCES WHO WANTED TO GO OVER THE BORDER INTO POLAND.

WHAT OTHER SIGNS ARE YOU SEEING THAT WORRY YOU ABOUT THE CURRENT SITUATION THERE, SPECIFICALLY AFTER THAT FAILED MUTINY OF THE WAGNER GROUP, LED BY YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, AND THE INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF WAGNER FORCES WE'VE NOW SEEN IN BELARUS?

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT MANY OF OUR VIEWERS ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT POLAND IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN EUROPE WHICH BORDERS THOSE THREE NEIGHBORS, RUSSIA, BELARUS, AND UKRAINE.

YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW VOLATILE THE GEOPOLITICAL SITUATION HAS BECOME RECENTLY.

SO, WE HAVE TO BRACE OURSELVES FOR FURTHER PROVOCATIONS, NOT ONLY IN POLAND, ALSO IN LITHUANIA AND IN OTHER BALTIC COUNTRIES.

JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, SOCIAL PLATFORMS IN POLAND WERE FLOODED WITH FAKE IMAGES OF WAGNER MERCENARIES PENETRATING INTO POLAND AND OPERATING ON POLISH SOIL.

JUST THIS MORNING, TWO WAGNER OPERATIVES WERE DETAINED BY POLISH AUTHORITIES, ACCUSED OF DISTRIBUTING PROPAGANDA MATERIALS.

IN WARSAW, AMONG MANY OTHER CITIES.

SO, I THINK THAT THE SITUATION HERE IS BECOMING REALLY VERY SENSITIVE FROM OUR VIEWPOINT.

NOT ONLY IN TERMS OF OUR POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF OUR MILITARY INVOLVEMENT IN THAT AREA.

>> AS WE KNOW, DO YOU PLAN TO SEND 10,000 TROOPS TO POLAND'S EASTERN BORDER AND RUSSIA HAS ANNOUNCED IT IS PLANNING TO DISCUSS AT LEAST SENDING RUSSIAN TROOPS TO ITS WESTERN BORDER, CITING POLAND, OF ALL REASONS, FOR THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS.

I'D LIKE TO HEAR, HAVE YOU LISTEN TO WHAT RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTER SERGEI SHOIGU SAID ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

>> Translator: THERE ARE EXISTING RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH THE MILITARIZATION OF POLAND, WHICH HAS BECOME THE MAIN INSTRUMENT OF THE UNITED STATES ANTI-RUSSIAN POLICY.

WARSAW ANNOUNCED THE INTENTION TO BUILD, ACCORDING TO THE POLES, THE MOST POWERFUL ARMY ON THE CONTINENT.

>> WHAT ARE THE RISKS THAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT, IF YOU HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THAT?

>> OF COURSE, WE'D LIKE TO AVOID ANY CONFRONTATION, A DIRECT MILITARY CLASH WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

WE DON'T WANT TO DRAG NATO INTO A POTENTIAL WAR WITH RUSSIA, ESPECIALLY TODAY, BUT WE KNOW ON THE OTHER HAND THAT THE RUSSIAN ARMY, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS PERFORMED SO MISERABLY IN UKRAINE AND NO WONDER THE RUSSIANS ARE PREOCCUPIED WITH OUR EFFORTS TO REINFORCE OUR MILITARY CAPABILITIES, NOT ONLY ALONG OUR BORDERS WITH BELARUS AND WITH THE EXCLAIF, BUT GENERALLY, WE HAVE ENTERED A PART OF -- MAYBE NOT MILITARIZATION AS MR. SHOIGU JUST SAID, BUT TRYING TO BUILD ONE OF THE STRONGEST ARMIES IN EUROPE, AGAIN, BECAUSE WE -- POE POLAND HAS BEEN RECEIVED AS A RECIPIENT OF SECURITY.

WE ARE NOW TRANSITIONING TO THE ROLE OF PROVIDER OF SECURITY, ALSO FOR OUR PARTNERS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, AND NATO.

YOU KNOW, RUSSIAN OFFICIALS, MINISTER SHOIGU BEING ONE OF THEM, LOVE TO WALLOW IN CONSPIRACY THETHEORIES.

WE HAVE HEARD HIS REMARKS ABOUT OUR WILLINGNESS TO INVADE WESTERN UKRAINE.

OF COURSE, THOSE REMARKS ARE AS OUTLANDISH AS IT GETS, AND WE HAVE ALREADY REBUTTED MANY OF THOSE ALLEGATIONS.

ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS.

THERE IS, OF COURSE, A KIND OF RIVALRY IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD, BUT I THINK NOBODY HAS ANY DOUBTS WHATSOEVER WHO IS THE AGGRESSOR AND WHO IS COMMITTED, PROFOUNDLY, TO DEFEND THEIR BORDERS AND THEIR SECURITY IN CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE.

>> RECENT INTERVIEW ON CNN, YOUR DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER ACCUSED MOSCOW AND MINSK OF TRANSPORTING YOU LEGAL MIGRANTS TO THE POLISH BORDER IN ORDER TO DESTABILIZE THE REGION.

AND THAT HASEK ECHOES OF WHAT WE SAW IN 2021, BEFORE THE FEBRUARY 2022 INVASION, LARGER SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE BY RUSSIA, AND THAT WAS POLAND ACCUSING PRESIDENT LUKASHENKO OF MANUFACTURING A MIGRANT CRISIS OF SORT AT ITS BORDER.

AND AS YOU KNOW, SOME OF YOUR TACTICS AND POLAND'S RESPONSE TO THIS DREW CONDEMNATION FROM YOUR EU ALLIES AND MEMBERS, AS WELL.

THERE IS AN ELECTION COMING UP IN YOUR COUNTRY, IN JUST A FEW MONTHS, IN OCTOBER.

IS THERE ANY REASON FOR YOUR ALLIES ONCE AGAIN TO BE CONCERNED THAT PERHAPS THIS BORDER ISSUE IS BEING POLITICIZED?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, WE CAN EXPECT BOTH RUSSIA AND BELARUS TO MANUFACTURE ANOTHER MIGRANT CRISIS.

AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE ERECTED A FENCE ALONG THE BORDER IN ORDER TO PREVENT ANOTHER CRISIS OF THIS KIND, AND, AGAIN, I CAN ONLY REITERATE THAT IT IS OUR OBLIGATION TO DEFEND NOT ONLY POLAND, BUT ALSO EXTERNAL BORDERS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

WE ARE DEALING WITH AN UNPREDICTABLE FOE, IT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO FORESEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE MONTHS TO COME, BUT I'M SURE THAT WE HAVE TO REMAIN VIGILANT FOR THIS KIND OF OPERATION, THIS KIND OF HYBRID ATTACKS AND WARFARE, ON THE PART OF BOTH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND BELARUS.

>> CAN WE SEE ANY SIMILAR -- ARE YOU EXPECTING TO USE SIMILAR TACTICS AS THE ONES DEPLOYED IN 2021, THE LAST TIME WE DISCUSSED THOSE BORDER ISSUES?

>> I'VE GOT NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER THAT BOTH THE LUKASHENKO REGIME AND PRESIDENT PUTIN WOULD BE READY TO DO ANYTHING TO INTIMIDATE POLAND AND OTHER NATO COUNTRIES, THIS IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW THINGS RUSSIANS AND BELARUSIANS, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE RULING ELITES, OF COURSE, NOT ABOUT PEOPLES AND NATIONS, THIS IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW THINGS THEY EXCEL AT.

INTIMIDATING AND INSTILLING FEAR IN WESTERN SOCIETIES, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO BRACE OURSELVES FOR FURTHER PROVOCATIONS OF THIS SORT.

>> YOU HAVE -- AS WE HAVE NOTED, POLAND HAS BEEN ONE OF UKRAINE'S STAUNCHEST SUPPORTERS THROUGHOUT THIS WAR, INCREASING YOUR OWN DEFENSE BUDGET CLOSE TO 4% AT THIS POINT IN PROVIDING UKRAINE WITH A LOT OF FINANCIAL AID, AS WELL AS MILITARY AND HUMANITARIAN AID, AS WELL.

I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING THERE IN WASHINGTON PLAY OUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, AS WE ENTER OUR OWN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION SEASON, SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARDS TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND SOME OF THE STATEMENTS WE'RE HEARING FROM THE FRONT-RUNNER, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, ON HIS VIEWS ON THE WAR AND FUTURE AID TO UKRAINE, THAT WOULD BE IN QUESTION.

BUT NOT JUST THAT, THERE'S A NEW CNN POLL THAT FOUND 55% OF AMERICANS, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS, BUT AMERICANS, SAY CONGRESS SHOULD NOT AUTHORIZE ADDITIONAL FUNDING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

HOW -- HOW IS THAT BEING REACTED TO IN -- IN WARSAW AND OTHER EUROPEAN CAPITALS?

>> OF COURSE, THAT ALSO AFFECTS OUR DIPLOMATIC WORK ON A DAILY BASIS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE ARE FOLLOWING THOSE POLLS, AS WELL.

AND THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN TELL YOU, AS A DIPLOMAT, IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN INSISTING ON THE NECESSITY OF TALKING CONSTANTLY WITH AMERICAN LAWMAKERS, REACHING OUT TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION, IN ORDER TO KEEP VIVID THE INTEREST IN WHAT IS GOING ON IN EUROPE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, ALSO IN TERMS OF OUR DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS, IN ORDER TO HELP AND ALLOW UKRAINE TO WIN THIS WAR.

>> AMBASSADOR, WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE YOU ON TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION.

IN THE MEANTIME, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> WELL, FROM CONFLICT ON A GLOBAL SCALE TO A SMALL HUMAN STORY THAT'S PROVING TO BE SHOCKINGLY UNIVERSAL.

STAFF WRITER FOR THE ATLANTIC JENNIFER SENIOR DUG INTO HER OWN FAMILY HISTORY FOR HER LATEST PIECE, "THE ONES WE SENT AWAY."

SHE REVEALS THAT HER AUNT ADELE WAS SPIRITED AWAY AS A BABY, INSTITUTIONALIZED BECAUSE OF A SEVERE INTELLECTUAL DISABILITY.

THE PIECE HAS TRIGGERED AND EMOTIONAL OUTPOUR, AS PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN HIDDEN FAMILY RESPOND TO HER PIECE.

JENNIFER IS JOINING ME NOW FROM VERMONT.

SO GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THE TEAM AND I, AND ALL OF THOSE WHO HAVE READ THIS PIECE, ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT, AND I CAN'T GET YOUR AUNT ADELE OR YOUR MOM OR YOU OUT OF MY HEAD, BECAUSE CLEARLY, THIS IS A STORY THAT RESONATES NOT JUST WITH YOUR FAMILY, BUT WITH MILLIONS OF FAMILIES AROUND THE WORLD, SO, FIRST OF ALL, I JUST WANT TO BEGIN THE CONVERSATION BY SAYING THANK YOU FOR RAISING THIS REALLY IMPORTANT TOPIC THAT DOESN'T GET DISCUSSED NEARLY ENOUGH.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ORIGINS.

>> I HAVE TO THANK YOU FOR INTRODUCING ME LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, THAT'S VERY GENEROUS THING TO SAY.

>> WELL, IT'S A GENUINE RESPONSE, AND I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF YOUR PIECE, AND THAT WAS FROM A TWEET, AND THAT WAS ONE FATHER WRITING ABOUT HIS SON JOEY, JOEY IS 25 TODAY, HE'S NEVER SAID A WORD IN HIS LIFE, BUT HAS TAUGHT ME MUCH MORE THAN I'VE EVER TAUGHT HIM.

NOW, THIS RESONATED WITH YOU, BECAUSE IT WASN'T SO LONG AGO THAT YOU FOUND OUT THAT YOUR MOTHER, WHO, FOR MOST OF YOUR LIFE, YOU THOUGHT, WAS AN ONLY CHILD, HAD A YOUNGER SISTER WHO WAS SENT AWAY WHEN YOUR MOTHER WAS ONLY 6 YEARS OLD.

YOU AND YOUR MOTHER WENT ON THIS JOURNEY TOGETHER TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT HER SISTER.

TELL US ABOUT YOUR AUNT ADELE.

>> RIGHT, SO -- I ACTUALLY LEARNED ABOUT HER WHEN I WAS 12.

UNTIL IT WAS 12, I THOUGHT MY MOTHER WAS AN ONLY CHILD AND SHE TOLD ME IT WAS RATHER SURPRISING, IF YOU ARE LABORING UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU HAVE NO AUNTS OR UNCLES ON A PARTICULAR SIDE, AND THEN WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT AGAIN.

WE HAD ONE CONVERSATION AT THE KITCHEN TABLE.

AND WHEN I WAS MAYBE 28 I SAID TO HER, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF WANT TO MEET HER, AND WE MET HER BRIEFLY, AND THE VISIT WAS AWKWARD.

IT WAS SORT OF A VISIT WITHOUT CONTEXT, IN WHICH I MET MY AUNT, WE WERE JUST SORT OF SHOWN INTO A ROOM, SHE HAD TRANSITIONED OUT OF AN INSTITUTION AND INTO A FAMILY SETTING, BUT THE FAMILY, I THINK, IN HINDSIGHT, WAS PROBABLY RATHER INDIFFERENT.

MET HER CUSTODIAL NEEDS, BUT DIDN'T REALLY TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT HER.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT SHE LIKED, WHAT SHE DISLIKED, WHAT MADE HER COME ALIVE.

SO, AFTER SEEING THIS VIRAL TWEET TWO YEARS AGO, I SAID TO MY MOTHER, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD TRY AGAIN?

SAND WE DID.

AND THIS TIME, IT WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

WE WENT TO THIS NEW SETTING, SHE WAS WITH A NEW FAMILY, AND SUDDENLY, FIRST OF ALL, MY MOTHER SHOWS UP TO THIS VISIT AND ADELE IS WEARING A BRIGHT RED SWEATER AND SO IS MY MOM.

THEY'RE BOTH WEARING NECKLACES THAT THEY'VE JUST BOTH MADE.

BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH IN THESE BEADING STAGES, RIGHT?

THEY'RE MAKING NECKLACES.

AND EVEN WHEN I MET ADELE THE FIRST TIME, SHE NEEDLEPOINTED, SO DID MY MOM.

SHE, YOU KNOW, OH, COULD SING, ON KEY, MY MOTHER STUDIED OPERA.

BUT THIS TIME, WE REALLY GOT TO KNOW HER, AND WHAT WAS STRIKING, IN ADDITION TO THE FACT THAT, LIKE, I HAD BEEN -- I HAD NEVER KIND OF UNDERSTOOD HOW MUCH OF A KIND OF IT OWE SIN CATTIC PERSONALITY SHE HAD UNTIL THIS MOMENT.

HER FAMILY WAS FULL OF IN-JOKES AND ALL THESE GREAT THINGS WITH HER.

WHAT WAS FASCINATING WAS SORT OF SEEING THE WAYS THAT SHE WAS EERILY LIKE MY MOM.

FORGETTING A THE BEADING, THE MUSICALITY, FORGET ABOUT THE RED SWEATERS, THEY'RE BOTH REALLY FACE KID USE.

THEY DON'T LET YOU LOAD THE DISHWASHER.

THEY'RE NEAT NICKS, WHERE I'M KIND OF THE OSCAR MADISON TO HER FELIX, I'M TOTALLY A SLOB.

IT WAS JUST KIND OF AMAZING TO SEE THE KIND OF TRAITS RECAPITULATED, YOU KNOW?

THAT BLEW MY DOORS OFF, YEAH, BLEW ME AWAY.

>> AND YOUR AUNT HAD BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH MICROCEPHALY, AND THAT WAS IT.

WHEN YOU DECIDED TO DO GENETIC TESTING, YOU FOUND OUT WHAT SHE HAD, AND I'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT, BUT I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOUR GRANDMOTHER EXPERIENCED AND WHAT SO MANY FAMILY MEMBERS AND PARENTS EXPERIENCED AT THE TIME, TOLD BY DOCTORS, IT WAS IN THE INTEREST OF THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR CHILDREN, TO BE TAKEN AND LIVING SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND TO BE TAKEN CARE OF BY OTHER PROFESSIONALS.

YOUR AUNT WAS SENT TO WILLOW BROOK, AND THIS WAS IN STATEN ISLAND, IN 1965, JUST TO GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF THIS FACILITY.

SENATOR ROBERT KENNEDY VISITED WILLOW BROOK AND HERE'S WHAT HE SAID AFTER HE SAW WHAT WAS INSIDE.

>> THE STATE INSTITUTIONS FOR THE MENTALLY RETARDED, WE HAVE A SITUATION THAT BORDERS ON A SNAKE PIT, AND THAT THE CHILDREN LIVE IN FILTH.

>> NOW, THE TERMINOLOGY, OBVIOUSLY, HAS CHANGED, BUT THE SENTIMENT IS STILL EXACT IN TERMS OF THE CARE, OR, THE LACK OF CARE THAT THESE CHILDREN, FOR THE MOST PART, AND PATIENTS RECEIVED IN 1972, GERALDO RIVERA BROUGHT A CAMERA INSIDE AND EXPOSED WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE.

WHEN YOU AND YOUR MOM LEARNED ABOUT WHAT YOUR AUNT LIKELY WENT THROUGH, WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOUR FAMILY?

>> I MEAN, I WATCHED THE GERALDO SPECIAL AND COULD NOT DO IT IN ONE SITTING.

AND IT SHOWS JUST HOW DELICATE THE SUBJECT IS, THAT -- I DON'T -- MY MOTHER AND I HAVEN'T EVEN HAD A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE GERALDO SPECIAL, AND YOU WERE VERY ARTFUL IN SAYING THAT THE -- OUR LANGUAGE HAS CHANGED, WE WON'T USE THOSE WORDS ANYMORE.

THAT'S HOW MY AUNT WAS DESCRIBED TO ME.

AND THE FIRST DOCTOR THAT DESCRIBED HER WAS A MICROCEPHALITIC IDIOT, WHICH WAS A MEDICAL STORM.

SNAKE PIT, I'M HAPPY TO USE THAT WORD.

THE EXPOSE THAT GERALDO DID IS SO UPSETTING.

AND ANYBODY CAN FIND IT ON YOUTUBE.

AND IT'S JUST ALL THIS FOOTAGE OF -- OF THESE NAKED BODIES, THEY WERE VERY CAREFUL SO THAT YOU COULDN'T SEE EVERYTHING, BUT THESE CHILDREN AND ADULTS ROCKING ON THE FLOOR BACK AND FORTH, WAILING, TOTALLY NEGLECTED.

NOBODY WAS CLOTHED, PEOPLE WERE ROTTING IN THEIR OWN DIAPERS.

THERE WAS AN OVERPOWERING STENCH IN THERE OF HUMAN WASTE.

THERE WAS NO STIMULATION, NOTHING.

I MEAN, IT WAS BILLED AS A SCHOOL, WHICH IS AN UTTER JOKE, I MEAN -- IF AN ATTENDANT DROPPED A PIECE OF PAPER ON THE FLOOR, THE KIDS WOULD FIGHT TO GRAB IT SO THAT THEY HAD SOMETHING TO PLAY WITH.

IT WAS WRENCHING TO THINK ABOUT, AND IT'S WRENCHING TO THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT IS WHERE MY AUNT SPENT ALL OF HER FORMATIVE YEARS, SHE WAS THEN TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER STATE INSTITUTION, WHICH WAS EQUALLY GRIM.

AND SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE VOCABULARY TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IT FELT LIKE.

WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

SHE -- YOU KNOW, SHE WAS -- SHE'S JUST, YOU HAVE KNOW, KIND OF NESTED RUSSIAN DOLL OF KIND OF BURIED PAIN, I IMAGINE.

I MEAN, BUT SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO RECRUIT FROM TO EXPLAIN WHAT SHE WENT THROUGH.

AND I CAN'T EVEN GUESS.

NO, I CAN'T.

>> AND THANKFULLY, TIMES HAVE CHANGED, AND CARE HAS CHANGED, AND THOSE KIND OF INSTITUTIONS ARE NO LONGER OPEN.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, YOU DO RAISE THE QUESTION OF WHAT IF.

WHAT KIND OF LIFE COULD ADELE HAD HAD IF SHE HAD PROPER CARE, BETTER CARE, BEEN TREATED HUMANELY?

AND AS WE MENTIONED, YOU DID PURSUE GENETIC TESTING AND YOU FOUND OUT THAT SHE HAD A SYNDROME, YOU DECIDED TO FIND OTHERS WHO ALSO HAVE THIS SAME SYNDROME, SPECIFICALLY YOUNGER PEOPLE, TO FOCUS ON THEIR CARE AND THE QUALITY OF LIFE THAT THEY LEAD, AND YOU FOUND A PRECOCIOUS 7-YEAR-OLD NAMED EMMA IN MISSOURI, WHO HAS, I WOULD JUST SAY, INCREDIBLE HEROIC CARE FROM HER PARENTS.

BUT I WAS BLOWN AWAY BY THE HAPPINESS, THE LIFE THAT THIS CHILD IS LEADING, THANKS TO THAT CARE.

TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW.

>> YEAH, IT WAS BITTERSWEET.

I MEAN, IT WAS ASTONISHING, BUT IT WAS BITTERSWEET, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HELP BUT DO THE, WHAT IF MY AUNT HAD HAD THIS?

WHAT IF, WHAT IF?

WHAT DID I SEE?

I SAW EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.

A PRECOCIOUS, SORT OF BUBBLY GIRL, BRIMMING WITH PERSONALITY.

SPEAKING IN COMPLETE SENTENCES.

MY AUNT, YOU KNOW, STAY KATO SENTENCES, AT BEST.

SHE HAD ACCESS TO HER LIFE, HAD TO BE ENCOURAGED, HOW DOES THIS MAKE YOU FEEL?

MAD, SAD, HAPPY.

SHE HAS -- SHE CAN ADD, SHE CAN SUBTRACT.

SHE CAN DO A TINY BIT OF READING.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE STATE SUBSIDIZED INTERVENTIONS STARTING FROM THE TIME YOU ARE 0 YEARS OLD.

YOU CAN GET OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY, SPEECH THERAPY, PHYSICAL THERAPY, THE PUBLIC SCHOOL TOOK EMMA AND SHE HAD THIS EXPLOSION OF SPEECH.

SHE WENT FROM HAVING ESSENTIALLY NOTHING TO TALKING, BECAUSE SHE WAS SURROUNDED BY PEERS WHO DID.

THEY PROVIDED SUPPLEMENTALRY READING AND SPEECH AND ALL THESE OTHER KIND OF RESOURCES FOR HER, AND AS YOU POINT OUT, SHE HAS THIS HEROIC MOTHER.

AND TERRIFIC DAD.

THEY'RE BOTH HIGHLY INVOLVED.

AND THEY'VE DEDICATED THEIR LIVES TO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE LEARNING AN ENJOYABLE, TACTILE KIND OF MULTISENSORY EXPERIENCE FOR HER.

>> THEIR ENTIRE STORY WAS INSPIRING.

YOU SAID IT TOOK YOU A FEW SECONDS NOT TO BREAK DOWN IN TEARS AS YOU LEFT.

I WAS PROBABLY DOING IT AS I WAS READING YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THIS FAMILY AND OF EMMA'S THRIVING SURROUNDINGS.

AS WE CLOSE HERE, I -- YOU KNOW, THE PART OF THIS STORY THAT STOOD OUT TO ME THE MOST, I WOULD SAY, THAT I STILL THINK ABOUT IS THE CARETAKING THAT YOUR AUNT RECEIVED THE LAST TWO DECADES OF HER LIFE.

POLAR OPPOSITE FROM WHAT SHE EXPERIENCED IN THE FIRST SEVERAL DECADES OF HER LIFE.

AND THAT IS THANKS TO PEOPLE WHO YOU CALL THE HIDDEN SAINTS, AND THAT IS CARMEN AND JUAN.

THEY TOOK 23 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES TO CARE FOR YOUR AUNT, AS IF SHE WERE THEIR OWN, UNTIL SHE DIED OF A HEART ATTACK IN MAY.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO READ A PASSAGE FROM THE PIECE, ABOUT THE LOVE AND THE BOND THAT YOUR AUNT DEVELOPED WITH THIS FAMILY, AND I'M GOING TO READ TO YOU YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ADELE'S FUNERAL.

WE BURY ADELE THREE DAYS LATER.

IT IS A GORGEOUS AFTERNOON, PERFECT, REALLY, BUT THE DISSONANCES OF THE HOUR ARE HARD TO IGNORE.

HERE WE ARE, HAVING A JEWISH FUNERAL FOR A WOMAN WHO WAS NEVER EXPOSED TO THE JEWISH TRADITION HER WHOLE LIFE, WHILE THOSE WHO LIVES HAVE BEEN MOST BRUTALLY UPENDED, THOSE WHO HAVE SPENT 24 YEARS CARING FOR ADELE WERE CATHOLICS.

THE WOMAN SHE CALLED MOMMY WHO JUST FOUR NIGHTS AGO RUBBED VICK'S ON HER BACK AND BROUGHT HER TEA, BECAUSE SHE HAD A COUGH, WILL GO BACK TO A HOUSE WITH AN EMPTY TWIN BED.

THAT WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN AND A WONDERFUL TRIBUTE TO THIS FAMILY.

BUT CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

AND I'M SURE THE COMFORT, KNOWING THAT YOUR AUNT HAD THIS LOVELY FAMILY TAKING CARE OF THEM, THAT THIS BROUGHT YOU AND YOUR MOTHER.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I CAN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THAT DAY WITHOUT LOSING IT MYSELF.

THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE.

AND IT'S A ROLL OF THE DICE, RIGHT?

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE GOING TO GET WHEN YOU -- WE FINALLY -- ADELE MOVED OUT OF THESE HORRIFIC INSTITUTIONS, THESE SNAKE PITS, INTO FAMILY CARE, ONE FAMILY, AS I SAID, WAS PROBABLY FINE, THIS FAMILY WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

EXTRAORDINARY.

THEY HAD IN-JOKES, THEY HAD THESE LITTLE ROUTINES WHERE THEY TAUGHT HER HOW TO SALSA.

THEY HAVE THESE ROUTINES WHERE THEY WOULD SAY, WHO IS THE TURKEY HEAD?

AND SHE WOULD LOOK AT JUAN AND SHE WOULD SAY, DADDY, DADDY'S THE TURKEY HEAD, BECAUSE SHE CALLED HIM DADDY.

THEY KNEW SHE WAS A NEAT NICK, SO, THEY WOULD LEAVE THINGS UNTIDY, SO THEY COULD CATCH HER STRAIGHTEN IT UP, BECAUSE IT WAS FUN AND FUNNY, AND THEY WANTED US TO SEE, THEY WANTED US TO APPRECIATE ALL OF HER TICKS.

PEOPLE LIKE THIS DON'T GET ACKNOWLEDGED, RIGHT?

LIKE, THERE'S NO GLORY IN THIS, THERE'S NO NOTHING IN THIS.

AND YET THEY WERE EVERYTHING, AND IT ALSO -- I MEAN, IF MY GRANDPARENTS -- IT MUST HAVE KILLED THEM TO GIVE THEIR BABY AWAY, I MEAN, THEY SPENT 21 MONTHS LOVING HER AND THEN WERE TOLD -- FALLING IN LOVE WITH HER, FORMING A BOND WITH HER, AND THEN THEY WERE TOLD THAT FOR HER OWN GOOD AND FOR THE GOOD OF MY MOTHER, THAT SHE REALLY -- THEY REALLY -- IN ALL GOOD CONSCIENCE, SHOULD GIVE HER UP.

AND I COULDN'T HELP BUT SORT OF JUST TRANSPOSING THEM INTO PLACE.

WHAT IF THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT?

AND THEY NEVER DID.

THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO.

SO GLAD SHE FOUND IT AT THE END OF HER LIFE.

I JUST AM.

>> JENNIFER, THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO DEFINE FAMILY, THAT IS BIOLOGICAL, AND THAT IS THOSE WHO LOVE AND CARE FOR YOU AS IF THEY ARE YOUR OWN.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND I'M SURE IT BRINGS YOU A LOT OF COMFORT AND YOUR MOTHER TO KNOW SHE EXPERIENCED THAT WITH YOU AND YOUR MOM AND KNOWING THAT SHE'S BURIED THERE WITH HER MOTHER, WHO LOVED HER, AS YOU SAID, FROM DAY ONE.

SO, THAT IS -- THAT IS A RICHNESS OF LIFE, AS WELL.

AND THANK YOU SO MUCH, JENNIFER, FOR BRINGING HER TO OUR LIVES, AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, SINCE THE START OF RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE, MOSCOW HAS BEEN FORCIBLY REMOVING CHILDREN FROM ITS NEIGHBOR, IN EFFORTS TO ERASE UKRAINIAN CULTURE AND IDENTITY.

JASON STANLEY IS A PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR AT YALE UNIVERSITY WHO RECENTLY TRAVELED TO UKRAINE TO TEACH AT THE KYIV SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS ON FASCISM, COLONIALISM AND IMPERIALISM.

HE JOINS HARI FROM KYIV TO DISCUSS THE COMPLICATED IDENTIFY OF UKRAINE.

>> BIANNA, THANK YOU.

JASON STANLEY, PROFESSPROFESSOR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'RE TALKING TO YOU, YOU'RE IN KYIV RIGHT NOW, AND FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, YOU'VE BEEN TEACHING A COURSE IN KYIV.

WHY?

>> WELL, I'M AN ANTI-IMPERIALIST AND AN ANTI-FASCIST, AND MY WHOLE LIFE, AMERICA HAS BEEN FIGHTING WARS TO TOPPLE OPPRESSIVE REGIMES AND INSTALL DEMOCRACY.

AND NONE OF THESE WARS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

HERE, WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT'S NOT AN OPPRESSIVE REGIME, IT'S A DEMOCRACY.

IT'S A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY, PROBABLY HEALTHIER THAN OUR OWN, AND IT'S FACING A VIOLENT FASCIST IMPERIAL REGIME THAT IS ATTACKING IT, SETTING UP CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN THE TERRITORIES IT OCCUPIES, AND SO, I FELT ESPECIALLY, AS A CHILD OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, AN ANTI-FASCIST, THAT I HAD TO BE HERE, AND SUPPORT AND TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

AND THEN SECONDLY, I'M A PHILOSOPHER, AND IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL MOMENT, I DON'T WANT TO DO THEORY WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SUFFERING, BUT LEARN FROM UKRAINIANS ABOUT WHAT THIS MOMENT IS LIKE, A YOUNG DEMOCRATIC NATION FIGHTING FOR ITS EXISTENCE, WAS AN OPPORTUNITY THAT AS A PHILOSOPHER I COULDN'T MISS.

>> SO, TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING, WHY YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT, I GUESS, TO GET THIS SYLLABUS ACROSS?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I'M HERE TO GAIN AN UNDERSTANDING ABOUT UKRAINIAN SELF-UNDERSTANDING, AND THEN I HAD A HYPOTHESIS ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THE HYPOTHESIS IS THAT RUSSIA IS THE MOST FASCIST, EXPLICITLY FASCIST REGIME SINCE -- SINCE, CERTAINLY IN EUROPE SINCE NAZI GERMANY.

AND THAT UKRAINE HAS BEEN IN A COLONIAL SITUATION, AND SO, I WANTED TO BRING TO UKRAINE DIFFERENT COLONIAL EXPERIENCES, SO, WE LOOKED AT THE EXPERIENCE OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN KENYA IN THE 1950s, WHEN THEY EXPERIENCED A BRUTAL SUPPRESSION BY THE BRITISH, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE, IF THEY SPOKE THE LANGUAGE IN SCHOOL, THEY WERE WHIPPED.

THEY WERE FORCED TO CARRY SIGNS SAYING, "I AM DUMB."

AND THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE FACES EXTINCTION.

I WANTED TO SEE IF THOSE RESONATED WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF UKRAINIANS, AND THEN I MADE -- I CHOSE THE READING, FOR INSTANCE, THE GREAT KENYAN INTELLECTUAL AND WRITER, WHO TALKS ABOUT THE EXTINCTION OF THE LANGUAGE UNDER THE BRITISH, I CHOSE THE READING TO RESONATE TO SEE IF THESE COLONIALISTS, THESE EXPERIENCES RESONATED WITH UKRAINIANS.

AND I THINK THEY -- THEY REALLY DID.

EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, UKRAINIANS OFTEN SEE THEMSELVES AS EUROPEANS.

>> SO, IS RUSSIA USING ITS NATIONALISM IN A WAY THAT THESE OTHER COLONIZERS DID, INCLUDING NAZI GERMANY?

>> SO, NO TWO COLONIAL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME.

I DO WORRY THAT -- AND ONE OF THE REASONS I'M HERE IS THAT I DO WORRY THAT WE -- UKRAINE FACES A GENOCIDE, CERTAINLY A -- IT'S INARGUABLE THAT THEY FACE A CULTURAL GENOCIDE, BECAUSE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, RUSSIA FORBIDS THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE, THEY REPLACE THE TEXTBOOKS TO ERASE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

BUT THERE'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT STRUCTURE THAN, SAY, WITH BRITISH COLONIALISM.

THE BRITISH, WHEN THEY OCCUPIED A COUNTRY, THEY DIDN'T THINK THAT THE LANGUAGE IN KENYA WERE ACTUALLY BRITISH.

THEY WANTED TO MAKE THEM BRITISH.

THEY WANTED TO CIVILIZE THEM AND THE LANGUAGE OF COLONIALISM.

THEY WERE SEIZING THEIR TERRITORY AND PUSHING THEM OFF INTO RESERVES, BUT THEY WANTED TO ERASE THEIR IDENTITY, THIS PHRASE, AFRICANS HAVE NO HISTORY, WAS PART OF THE COLONIALIST MIND-SET.

HERE, IT'S SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.

THE RUSSIAN IDEOLOGY IS THAT UKRAINIANS REALLY HAVE RUSSIANS, AND THEY'VE INVENTED THIS FAKE IDENTITY.

AND THE TALK IDENTITY IS ALL ABOUT BEING ANTI-RUSSIAN.

AND SO, THE REASON I'M WORRIED ABOUT GENOCIDE IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE THIS CONCEPTION THAT -- AS LONG AS THERE'S A UKRAINIAN IDENTIFY, IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO RUSSIA, BECAUSE IT'S THIS ANTI-RUSSIAN IDENTITY.

AND SO, THAT'S VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT HITLER THOUGHT, WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT ABOUT JEWS.

THEY WERE THERE ON THE PLANET TO DESTROY ARYANS.

I THINK THE PRETENSE WAS, YOU KNOW, A PRETENSE, AND NOT CORRECT.

>> YEAH.

>> BECAUSE THE BRITISH SEIZED LAND, BUT THERE'S JUST THE GENOCIDAL INTENT HERE.

>> WHEN YOU SAY GENOCIDE, WHAT COMES TO MY MIND IS MAYBE WHAT HAPPENED IN RWANDA, OR WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE NAZIS, AND THOSE IMAGES AREN'T NECESSARILY THE ONES WE'RE SEEING TODAY.

WE'RE SEEING HORRIBLE DEVASTATION, WE'RE SEEING WAR AND SUFFERING, BUT WHEN YOU USE PARALLELS LIKE NAZIISM AND LIKE GENOCIDE, HOW DO THE STUDENTS RESPOND?

AND DO THEY GET IT?

DO THEY PUSH BACK?

>> SO, THERE'S CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

THERE'S ELIMINATION OF IDENTITIES, WITH WHAT WE DID IN AMERICA WITH INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS.

WE DID A PHYSICAL GENOCIDE.

WE SEIZED THEIR LAND, WE KILLED A HUGE PORTION OF THEM, PHYSICALLY, WE PENNED THEM INTO RESERVES, BUT WE ALSO ELIMINATED -- WE TRIED TO DO A MASS EXTERMINATION OF THEIR CULTURE AND IDENTITY.

WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS CLEARLY THAT.

YOU CLEARLY HAVE CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

YOU CLEARLY HAVE A SYSTEMATIC ATTEMPT TO ERASE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

AND INCREASINGLY, WE'RE SEEING PHYSICAL GENOCIDE.

LOOK, THE ONE STATISTIC I SAW, KIDNAPPED 19,000 UKRAINIAN CHILDREN AND SENT THEM TO RUSSIA TO BE RAISED BY RUSSIAN FALL I WILLS.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S LIKE THE INDIGENOUS BOARDING SCHOOLS.

WE KNOW THAT INDIGENOUS GENOCIDE IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT WAS A MODEL FOR HITLER.

IT WAS MANIFEST DESTINY OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO IN THE EAST.

SO, AS A PHILOSOPHER OF LANGUAGE, I CAN TELL YOU, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT AT ALL, THAT THERE'S GENOCIDAL LANGUAGE, THERE'S GENOCIAL VOCAL LAB.

THERE'S A GENOCIDAL IDEOLOGY.

THEY CALL IT FILTRATION, WHERE THEY TORTURE PEOPLE TO SEE IF THEY HAVE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

AND THAT'S WHY I THINK YOU CAN'T CEDE ANY TERRITORY, BECAUSE IT IS -- THE RUSSIANS ARE SPEAKING GENOCIDALLY, THE RUSSIANS ARE SETTING UP INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE PARADIGMS OF FASCIST REGIMES AND GENOCIDAL REGIMES.

SO, IT'S NOT LIKE THE MASS UNSTAND SLAUGHTER OF RWANDA.

THEY DON'T HAVE AUSCHWITZ HERE, THAT'S TRUE.

THERE ARE THESE DISTINCTIONS, BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT CULTURAL GENOCIDE, WE CAN TALK ABOUT KIDNAPPING CHILDREN, A LOT OF -- THERE'S AN OVERLAP WITH OVER GENOCIDES WE RECOGNIZE.

>> SO, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR UKRAINIAN STUDENTS, OR WHOEVER IS IN THIS CLASS, SO TO SPEAK, TO GET THIS HYPOTHESIS TO INTERNALIZE IT, TO THINK ABOUT IT, TO STRUGGLE WITH IT, TO TAKE IT TO THEIR FRIENDS.

WHAT IS KIND OF YOUR CONTRIBUTION HERE BY INJECTING THIS THOUGHT INTO UKRAINE AT THIS TIME?

>> OKAY, I THINK THERE'S AN INTELLECTUAL PURPOSE, A SOLIDARITY PURPOSE.

I THINK UKRAINE FEELS ALONE, AND I WANTED TO SHOW THAT -- SHOW THEM THAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE -- THEY'RE OUR ALLIES IN THE SENSE THAT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS EXPERIENCE.

AND THE SECOND THING WAS STRATEGIC.

I THINK UKRAINIANS, BY CONSTANTLY IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE AND WESTERN VALUES, ARE LOSING ALLIES.

THEY'RE LOSING ALLIES WHO ARE VICTIMS OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM, THEY'RE LOSING ALLIES WHO SUFFERED UNDER EUROPEAN GREAT POWERS AND THE SCRAMBLE FOR AFRICA THAT WAS DECIDED ON IN THE 1884 BERLIN CONFERENCE.

AND SO, THOSE ARE VALUABLE ALLIES.

THE FORMER COLONIZED COUNTRIES IN AFRICA, VICTIMS OF U.S.

IMPERIALISM IN LATIN AMERICA, SHOULD BE ON THE SIDE OF UKRAINE.

AND UKRAINIANS, BY CONSTANTLY AFFILIATING THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE, ARE LOSING THOSE ALLIES.

>> DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS COLONIZED?

>> VERY, VERY INTERESTING QUESTION.

SO, THAT WAS REALLY THE EFFORT, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE IS RESISTANCE TO THAT.

THERE'S RESISTANCE, BECAUSE THEY DO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE.

AND SO, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT EUROPE HAS DONE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW ENLIGHTENMENT VALUES WERE A PRETENSE, THEY'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SOVIET UNION BEING A PRETENSE, THAT SOVIET BRUTALITY TO UKRAINIANS, AS WELL AS TO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING TO RUSSIANS, WAS DONE UNDER A PRETENSE.

AND I'VE BEEN TRYING TO URGE, FOLLOWING, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE ANTI-COLONIAL LITERATURE, TO VOICE, TO SHOW THAT SOMETHING SIMILAR IS TRUE OF EUROPEAN VALUES.

AND THAT'S BEEN HARD.

THAT'S BEEN A TOUGH BATTLE.

IT REMINDS THEM OF MARXIST CRITIQUES OF LIBERAL CONCEPTS, AND IT'S TOXIC IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD TO COMPARE ANYTHING TO MARX, TO ECHO MARX.

BUT I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE PARALLELS RESONATE WITH THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE THING THAT I HADN'T REALIZED BEFORE I TAUGHT THIS COURSE THAT WOULD RESONATE WITH THEM IS FANONE'S DESCRIPTION OF THE CAPITAL OF THE EMPIRE, AND THE COLONIES.

I HADN'T KNOWN THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST, THE BEST INTELLECTUALS WENT TO MOSCOW AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WROTE IN RUSSIAN, IF YOU WERE AN INTELLECTUAL, YOU WROTE IN RUSSIAN.

MOSCOW WAS LIKE PARIS FOR THE FRENCH COLONIES.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT FANONE TALKS ABOUT IN DETAIL AND STRONGLY RESONATED WITH THEM, THIS SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, UKRAINE WAS, YOU KNOW, A PROVINCE OR A COLONY, AND THE REAL INTELLECTUAL HUB WAS MOSCOW.

SO, I THINK IT'S BEEN TOUGH, BECAUSE NO COLONIAL SUBJECT WANTS TO VIEW THEMSELVES AS COLONIZED, IT'S A FORM OF OPPRESSION, AND, SO -- THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF BARRIERS.

THE EUROPEAN SELF-CONCEPTION, AND FIRST, AND SECONDLY, THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, COLONIZED SUBJECTS ARE MADE TO FEEL INTERIOR.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A RELUCTANT TO ACCEPT THAT, BUT THERE WAS ALSO A COMFORT IN SEEING THE OVERLAPS BETWEEN WHAT ALGERIA, WHAT KENYA WENT THROUGH.

>> WHEN THERE IS AN ATTACK ON A NATION, PEOPLE HAVE A TENDENCY TO RALLY AROUND THE FLAG.

WE SAW IT AFTER 9/11 HERE, WE'VE SEEN IT IN SO MANY PLACES, AND I WONDER WHETHER THERE IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST ZELENSKYY'S VISION FOR UKRAINE, BUT THERE ARE PROBABLY LIKELY MORE NATIONALIST VISIONS FOR UKRAINE.

AND IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CALLING THEM OUT TO BE, RIGHT?

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW YOUR STUDENTS PERCEIVE THAT, AND WHAT THAT CONVERSATION IS INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

>> SO, THAT'S BEEN ONE OF MY MAIN POINTS.

THERE ARE REALLY TWO BATTLES.

ONE IS ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THE SECOND IS TO AVOID BEING THE COUNTRY, BECOMING THE COUNTRY, THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN FALSELY SAYS UKRAINE IS.

UKRAINE, UNLIKE MOST DEMOCRACIES IN THE WORLD, HAS NO FAR-RIGHT, HAS ALMOST NO FAR-RIGHT REPRESENTATION IN ITS LEGISLATURE.

IT HAS HELD OFF THE KIND OF EXTREMISM THAT YOU FIND UNTIL -- ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, FAR-RIGHT, QUASI-FASCIST EXTREMISM.

YOU EVEN FIND IT IN NEIGHBORS TO THE WEST, LIKE HUNGARY.

BUT THE WORRY IS, YOU KNOW, PUTIN IS SAYING UKRAINIANS ARE REALLY LIKE THE UKRAINIAN NATIONALIST THAT ALLIED WITH THE NAZIS.

THEY ARE LIKE THE PROFOUND ANTI-SEMITE, THAT'S IN UKRAINIAN HISTORY.

AND THE CONCERN IS, COMING OUT OF THIS WAR, PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON THE BATTLEFIELD, THE WORLD, I HOPE, WILL PRESENT THAT, AND UKRAINE, THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES WILL, BUT IF, EMERGING FROM THAT, THEY LOSE THE SECOND WAR, THE WAR FOR THEIR IDENTITY, THE WAR FOR THEIR SOUL, AS IT WERE, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE DEEPLY TRAGIC.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING THROUGHOUT ABOUT HOW TO AVOID REALLY BAT NATIONALISM, AND SO, YOU LEARN A LOT ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY, BUT YOU LEARN THE BAD AND THE GOOD.

AND IF YOU ONLY LEARN THE GOOD PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY, OR EXAGGERATED VERSIONS OF THE GOOD PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY, YOU RISK FALLING INTO A KIND OF NATIONALISM THAT UNDERGERDS FASCISM.

SO, I'VE BEEN SAYING, LOOK, UKRAINIANS DID HAVE COME POLICE SI IN THE IMPERIALIST EMPIRE THAT IS THE SOVIET UNION.

AND UKRAINIANS -- UKRAINE DID HAVE A HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

THERE WAS A VERSION OF UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM THAT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A NARROW CONCEPTION OF THE PEOPLE,OVER THE NATION, THAT EXCLUDED JEWS AND RESULTED IN GREAT VIOLENCE.

AND SO, IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT CONVERSATION, BECAUSE AT THIS TIME, YOU KNOW, UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM IS REQUIRED, AS FANONE ARGUES, TO FIGHT BACK.

SO, IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO LOOK AT FIGURES IN THE PAST WHO WERE NATIONALISTS, BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, COMMITTED ACTS OF GREAT VIOLENCE AGAINST THE POLES, AGAINST JEWS, AND COMPLETELY DENOUNCED THEM.

BUT I'VE EMPHASIZED THAT -- I'VE TRIED TO EMPHASIZE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO AVOID FASCISM, TO AVOID THE KIND OF NATIONALISM THAT UNDERLIES FASCISM, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EMBRACE THE BAD AND THE GOOD -- THE BAD ASPECTS OF YOUR HISTORY, AS WELL AS THE GOOD ONES.

AND THEN WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW TO TREAT NATIONAL MINORITIES.

ESPECIALLY THE PROBLEM OF HOW TO TREAT, YOU KNOW, RUSSIAN SPEAKERS, WHEN THIS IS OVER.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE, YOU KNOW, HOW, WHEN YOU'RE SO ANGRY AT THEM, AND IN GENERAL, LIKE, THE IMPORTANCE OF REPRESENTING PEOPLE -- DIFFERENT MINORITIES.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY IMPRESSED MED ABOUT UKRAINE IS, ONE OF THE MOST LOVED FAMILIES, THEY ARE AFGHAN REFUGEES, THEY ARE NOW A HEAD OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT WILL HELP AGAINST THE BAD VERSION OF NATIONALISM.

JUST LIKE IN AMERICA, REPRESENTATION OF MINORITIES, WHILE NOT ENOUGH TO PREVENT WHITE SUPREMACY, IS A NECESSARY CONDITION OF OVERCOMING OUR PAST.

>> SOUNDS A BIT LIKE YOU'RE LEARNING A LOT MORE THAN YOUR STUDENTS ARE.

>> I AM LEARNING A LOT MORE THAN MY STUDENTS, A LOT.

>> JASON STANLEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW FASCISM WORKS" AND A PROFESSOR AT YALE, JOINING US FROM KYIV.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, REDISCOVERING ROMAN LIFE.

WHEN JULIUS CAESAR WAS ASSASSINATED IN 44 BC, THE SITE OF HIS DEATH WAS DECLARED A CURSED PLACE AND WALLED UP.

AFTER BEING EXCAVATED A CENTURY AGO, THE SPOT IS NOW OFFICIALLY OPEN FOR VISITORS.

BUT IT ISN'T THE ONLY PIECE OF ROMAN HISTORY REVEALING ITSELF.

BEN WEDEMAN REPORTS ON THE RECENT FINDINGS.

>> Reporter: PASSER-BYS PEER DOWN INTO THE CRIME SCENE, IN ROME'S BUSY AREA.

THIS WOMAN POINTS TO WHERE THE MURDER HAPPENED.

DURING THE IDES OF MARCH, IN 44 BC, THE SENATE WAS IN SESSION, AND THERE, JULIUS CAESAR WAS ASSASSINATED BY THE CONSPIRATORS, STABBED 23 TIMES, SHE SAYS.

AN ARCHITECT WHO SUPERVIE VISED THE EXCAVATION HERE.

FOR YEARS, IT WAS STRAY CATS WHO CAME, SAW, AND CONQUERED THIS SQUARE.

NOW, THEY HAVE TO MAKE ROOM FOR SIGHT-SEERS.

THE AUTHORITIES IN ROME ARE EAGER TO CAPITALIZE ON THE RESURGENCE OF TOURISM, FOLLOWING THE PANDEMIC LOCKDOWN.

RECENTLY REVEALING A PRIVATE THEATER BUILT FOR A MAD EMPEROR.

IMMORTALIZED IN THE EPIC 1951 BLOCKBUSTER.

>> AND HERE IS HISTORY'S EVIL GENIUS.

NERO.

>> NERO WAS A CLASSIC CASE, SAYS THIS ROME-BASED ARCHAEOLOGIST, OF A LEADER WHO THOUGHT HE KNEW BEST.

>> BUT AT A CERTAIN POINT, HE REALIZES, AS HE'S GETTING OLDER, WAIT A MINUTE, I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT.

THOSE GUYS THAT ARE ADVISING ME, THEY'RE INHIBITING ME.

I CAN GET RID OF THEM.

WHO IS TO SAY I CAN'T?

>> Reporter: THE THEATER IS WHERE NERO, A SELF-STYLED POET, MU SCHISM, AND ATHLETE, HONED ACTS TO ENTERTAIN THE MASSES.

HE WAS BIGLY INTO BREAD AND CIRCUSES.

THE BREAD AND CIRCUSES ARE OVER NOW.

BUT THIS CITY STILL BRINGS IN THE MASSES.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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