November 17, 2023

♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE FAMILIES MUCH ISRAELI HOSTAGES TAKEN BY HAMAS CALL FOR URGENT ACTION.

WITH THE GAZE FIXED ON GAZA, ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER KAJA KALLAS WARNS WE SHOULDN'T TURN A BLIND EYE TO THE THREAT FROM RUSSIA.

AND CONFLICT AND POLITICS IN AMERICA.

SUSAN GLASSER EXPLAINS HOW THE ISRAEL/HAMAS WAR IS FUELING TENSIONS GOING INTO THE 2024 ELECTIONS.

>>> PLUS, NAVIGATING COLLEGE WHILE UNDER THE POVERTY LINE.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO BEST-SELLING AUTHOR STEPHANIE LAND.

>>> AND FINALLY, REMEMBERING THE MAN BEHIND SOME OF THE WORLD' MOST BELOVED BOOKS.

CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH VETERAN PUBLISHER STEPHEN RUBIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN D.C.

SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE FAMILIES OF THE ESTIMATED 237 HOSTAGES BELIEVED TO BE HELD CAPTIVE BY HAMAS ARE DEMANDING ANSWERS ABOUT WHERE THEIR LOVED ONES ARE AND WHEN THEY WILL SEE THEM AGAIN.

TODAY THEY CONTINUE THEIR MARCH TOWARDS JERUSALEM AFTER SETTING OFF FROM TEL AVIV FOUR DAYS AGO.

AND IN NEW YORK, THE FACE OF ONE HOSTAGE, 9-YEAR-OLD EMILY HAND, LIT UP TIMES SQUARE ON HER NINTH BIRTHDAY.

HER FATHER TOLD CNN THAT HE JUST WANTS HIS DAUGHTER BACK.

>> SHE WON'T HAVE A BIRTHDAY.

I WOULD THINK SHE WOULD BE BACK BY NOW.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN OUR PRAYERS ANSWERED.

BUT SHE'S NOT.

SHE IS STILL DOWN IN THE TUNNELS.

AND NOW WE HAVE TO HOPE THAT SHE WILL BE BACK FOR CHRISTMAS.

>> UNIMAGINABLE PAIN THESE FAMILIES ARE GOING THROUGH.

WELL, THESE CALLS COME AS ISRAELI FORCES HAVE RECOVERED THE BODIES OF TWO HOSTAGES MERE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL.

A 65-YEAR-OLD AND A 19-YEAR-OLD.

ISRAEL IS DOUBLING DOWN ON CLAIM THAT THE MEDICAL CENTER SAT ABOVE A HAMAS COMMAND CENTER.

THE IDF RELEASED THIS IMAGE THEY SAY SHOWS A TUNNEL SHAFT PART OF THAT NETWORK.

CNN HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO VERIFY THAT, EVEN THOUGH WE GEE LOLO INDICATED THIS TO THE COMPLEX.

HAMAS DENIES OPERATING OUT OF AL SHIFA.

WHILE THE EYES OF THE WORLD ARE TRAINED ON GAZA, THERE IS FEAR IN UKRAINE.

WATCHING ALL OF THIS CLOSELY IS ESTONIA ON THE FRONT LINES OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

PRIME MINISTER KAJA KALLAS DUBBED THE IRON LADY OF EUROPE MET U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER JOHNSON IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK.

UPON HER RETURN, SHE SPOKE TO CHRISTIANE FROM THE ESTONIAN CAPITAL OF TALLINN.

>> PRIME MINISTER KALLAS, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU IN ESTONIA, IN THE BALTIC STATES, YOU ARE FEELING A LITTLE LEFT OUT?

DO YOU WORRY THAT THE SHIFT OF FOCUS TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE THERE IS A RAGING WAR HAS TAKEN THE EYE DANGEROUSLY OFF THE BALL OFF PUTIN?

>> WELL, CLEARLY THE CRISIS HAS TAKEN A LOT OF ATTENTION FROM ALL OF US.

BUT I THINK WE CAN DEAL WITH SIMILAR, I MEAN, SIMULTANEOUS CRISES AT THE SAME TIME.

WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS BEFORE AND WE CAN'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, FOCUS SHIFTED FROM UKRAINE BECAUSE IT'S A WAR GOING ON ALSO IN EUROPE AND HAS MUCH CONSEQUENCES FOR EVERYBODY.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK AMERICANS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DOING WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID, THAT PUTIN SHOULD NOT SUCCEED.

OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT BIDEN HAS SAID.

MEANTIME, YOU HAVE THE NEW REPUBLICAN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE CUTTING OUT AID FOR UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP REMINDING AUDIENCES THAT WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT HE TOLD A HEAD OF GOVERNMENT, I WILL NOT PROTECT YOU IF RUSSIA ATTACKS.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FUNDAMENTAL THING IS THAT EVERYBODY THINKS AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

IF AMERICA IS NOT SUPPORTING UKRAINE HERE, RUSSIA WILL WIN, AND THEN AMERICA WILL BE SECOND, NOT THE FIRST POWER.

I THINK THIS IS ALSO IMPORTANT.

WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE IS REALLY FIGHT FOR FREEDOM.

FREEDOM IS THE BASIS OF AMERICAN CONSTITUTION.

IT IS ALL THAT AMERICA IS ABOUT.

SO HERE WE HAVE ONE COUNTRY FIGHTING FOR THE FREEDOM, FOR THE RIGHT TO EXIST, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE A COUNTRY THAT WANTS TO ERASE US.

IT'S VERY, VERY CLEAR.

IT'S VERY BLACK AND WHITE.

AND AMERICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF FREEDOM.

SO I HOPE THAT THIS IS THE CASE RIGHT NOW AS WELL.

>> CAN I PLAY A QUICK SOUND BITE FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WHO ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF, YOU KNOW, WAR FATIGUE, WAR DISTRACTION.

>> IF RUSSIA WILL KILL ALL OF US, THEY WILL ATTACK NATO COUNTRIES AND YOU WILL SEND YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS AND IT WILL BE, I'M SORRY, BUT THE PRICE WILL BE HIGH.

>> PRIME MINISTER, HE IS BASICALLY SAYING THAT IT COULD DRAG THE U.S.

IN FINALLY.

>> THIS IS CORRECT.

I MEAN, WHEN WE DON'T DO THE RIGHT THING NOW, THEN THE PRICE WILL BE HIGHER.

THE PRICE WILL GO UP WITH EVERY HESITATION, WITH EVERY DELAY.

I MEAN, WE ALL WANT THIS WAR TO END.

WE ARE IN A PLACE WHERE, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA COULD EASILY END THIS WAR WHEN THEY REALIZE THEY MADE A MISTAKE.

THEY CAN'T WIN BECAUSE THEY CAN'T BREAK THE WILL OF UKRAINIANS AND BECAUSE WE ARE SUPPORTING UKRAINE WITH MILITARY, WITH EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED.

SO THIS TIPPING POINT IS NOT FAR IF WE STICK TOGETHER.

IF WE GIVE IN NOW, THEN I'M ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE PRICE FOR ALL OF US, ALSO THOSE WHO ARE MUCH FURTHER AWAY FROM RUSSIA OR UKRAINE, THE PRICE FOR ALL OF US WILL BE BIGGER.

>> YOUR STATES ARE FRONT LINE STATES, ESTONIA, LATVIA, LITHUANIA, AND YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED SOVIET INVASION, OCCUPATION IN THE NOT TOO DISTANT PAST.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY, AND DO YOU FEAR NOW THAT PUTIN MIGHT BE EMBOLDENED, DESPITE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NOW, BY AMERICA BEING FOCUSED ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND MIGHT EVEN TRY SOME MISCHIEF AT SOME POINT IN YOUR STATES?

>> NOT SO FAR PUTIN HASN'T TRIED.

BUT SAYING IF YOU THINK EVERY STEP HE HAS TAKEN, THE NEXT ONE HAS BEEN BOLDER.

BECAUSE THE RESPONSE FROM THE WEST HAS BEEN WEAK, I BRING YOU THIS EXAMPLE.

IN 2008, GEORGIA WAS IMPACTED.

IN 2014, CRIMEA WAS ANNEXED.

THERE RUSSIA WAS ASHAMED THAT THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE WESTERN RESPONSE.

BUT AS THE RESPONSE WAS WEAK, THE NEXT TIME IT'S BOLD EARLY.

IT'S LIKE, YES, WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY AND WE DON'T EVEN HIDE IT.

SO I GUESS ON THE BASIS OF THIS PATTERN, THEN THE NEXT STEP WILL BE EVEN MORE BOLDER THAN THAT.

AND, YES, IT MIGHT BE ALSO, YOU KNOW, TESTING THE NATO IN SOME WAY.

IN NATO WE HAVE THE ARTICLE 5 THAT SAYS ATTACK ON ONE IS ATTACK ON ALL, AND THAT MEANS WE ALL HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME.

>> AND YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE CONSIDERED AS THE NEXT NATO SECRETARY GENERAL.

WE KNOW THAT STOLTENBERG IS FINALLY GOING TO BE RETIRING.

CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME MORE DETAIL ON THAT?

DO YOU WANT THE JOB?

WHY DO YOU WANT THE JOB?

>> NO.

I MEAN, I GET THIS QUESTION A LOT.

THIS TIME THE JOURNALISTS ASKED WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE CONSIDERED?

AND THEN WHO WOULDN'T?

AND AT THE SAME TIME, I MEAN, I HAVE THIS FRUSTRATION IN TERMS OF BEING IN THESE BIG ORGANIZATIONS, ALREADY 20 YEARS, AND I SEE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN ESTONIA, SMART PEOPLE, VERY HARD-WORKING PEOPLE, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO POSTS, DIFFERENT POSTS, THEN WE ARE NOT BEING CONSIDERED AND IT'S STILL THE WESTERN COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE COMING FROM THERE.

SO WOULD I BE OFFERED SUCH A JOB?

HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

BUT WOULD I LIKE TO BE CONSIDERED?

THEN, YES.

>> AND I JUST WANT TO PRESS ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS.

DO YOU THINK IT'S BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF YOUR QUALIFICATIONS, APART FROM THE OTHERS YOU JUST SAID, YOU ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED RUSSIA ON YOUR BORDER AND, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENED IN THE NOT TOO DISTANT PAST?

>> WELL, WE KNOW DEFINITELY RUSSIA BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN OCCUPIED BY RUSSIA.

NOT IN THE SO DISTANT PAST.

THEREFORE, WE HAVE REGARDING RUSSIA AND BEFORE, AND I THINK WE ARE RIGHT REGARDING RUSSIA NOW.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS STILL STUFF ABOUT PUTIN THAT WE DON'T GET?

DO YOU THINK THAT THE AMERICANS, THE EUROPEANS, THE GLOBAL SOUTH STILL DOESN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT PUTIN?

>> WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT IT IS NOT THE DEMOCRACY.

SO AS WE ARE USED TO THINKING AND SEEING THINGS TRUE THIS DEMOCRATIC LENS, THEN IN RUSSIA, YOU KNOW, KREMLIN DOESN'T THINK THAT WAY.

THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, HE IS A DICTATOR AND HE IS THINKING LIKE DICTATOR IS THINKING.

SO WE HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, HAVE AWARENESS OF THIS TOTALLY DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS GOVERNING.

SO WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND WHAT IS OF INTEREST TO DICTATOR.

KEEPING THE CRONIES HAPPY, THE OLIGARCHS.

>> AND THE POWER STRUCTURES, THE ARMY HAPPY, BECAUSE THEY KEEP HIM IN POWER AND MAKE THE DEEDS THAT HE WANTS THEM TO MAKE.

SO I THINK IN TERMS OF THOSE TWO ELEMENTS, THERE ARE OLIGARCHS WHO ARE NOT HAPPY BECAUSE WE ARE SANCTIONING THEIR PROPERTY AND ALREADY TALKING ABOUT USING THAT PROPERTY FOR THE BENEFIT OF REPARATIONS IN UKRAINE.

REGARDING ARMIES, AS I WAS SAYING, PRIGOZHIN HAS SHOWN THE ARMY IS NOT HAMILTON.

WHY I'M SAWING THIS, I FEEL THE TIPPING PART MATE NOT BE THAT FAR.

>> THAT'S PROVOCATIVE FOOD TORE THOUGHT.

HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THIS WAR WILL LAST?

>> IT'S HARD TO TELL.

AT THE SAME TIME, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE EXPECTATIONS THAT IT'S GOING TO END VERY SOON.

BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA'S MILITARY OPERATION IN AFGHANISTAN, THEN THEY WERE THERE FOR TEN YEARS.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT UKRAINE, THEY STARTED ALREADY 2014.

SO NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE TEN YEARS, MAYBE THEN IS THE TIME WHEN THEY REALIZE THEY MADE A MISTAKE AND THEY CAN'T WIN.

>> REALLY FASCINATING.

PRIME MINISTER KAJA KALLAS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

ALL THE BEST.

>>> FROM EUROPE TO THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THIS WEEK PROTESTS TURNED VIOLENT OUTSIDE THE DNC IN WASHINGTON WITH PEOPLE CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE IN GAZA.

YOU A MID THE ISRAEL/HAMAS WAR ANDLIZE IN ISLAMOPHOBIA AND ANTISEMITISM.

ALL OFF THIS IS PLAYING OUT AS THE PROSPECT OF A DARK DIVISIVE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN BECOMES EVEN CLEARER.

OVER A WEEK AGO, CHILLING VETERANS DAY PROMISE FROM TRUMP TO ROOT OUT ECONOMISTS, MARXISTS, FACET AND RADICAL-LEFT THUGS THAT LIVE LIKE VERMIN.

THAT'S A QUOTE.

WE HAVE ALSO HAD THIS WEEK ALLEGATIONS OF A PHYSICAL ALTERCATION INSIDE A CONGRESS.

A WEEK AGO, A WEEK AWAY FROM THE BIG U.S. HOLIDAY THANKSGIVING, WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS MOMENT AS WAR, POLITICS AND DANGEROUS RHETORIC COLLIDE.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER WITH "THE NEW YORKER."

SUSAN, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

SO LET'S START AT THE BOTTOM, AND THAT IS THE VERY CHILDISH BEHAVIOR WE HAVE SEEN FROM SEVERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, CONGRESSMAN TIM BURCHETT, A REPUBLICAN FROM INTENSITY, ACCUSING FORMER SPEAKER McCARTHY OF INTENTIONALLY ELBOWING HIM IN THE KIDNEYS.

McCARTHY REPLIED, IF I REALLY WANTED TO HURT YOU, YOU WOULD FEEL IT.

WE HAD POTENTIAL FIGHT THAT WAS DIFFUSED BY SENATOR SANDERS BETWEEN A REPUBLICAN SENATOR AND THE HEAD OF THE TEAMSTERS UNION.

I MEAN, A LOT OF IT THIS TRANSPIRING AS I DESCRIBED WITH THE BACKDROP IN THE INTRO TO YOU.

YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING WASHINGTON AND POLITICS FOR A LONG TIME.

WITH SO MUCH ON THE LINE NOW IN THE U.S. AND AROUND THE WORLD, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS RATHER CHILDISH, IMMATURE, AND VERY INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR WE'VE SEEN?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M EXHAUSTED BY YOUR VERY ACCURATE, I'M AFRAID, SUMMATION.

>> ME, TOO.

>> THIS IS AN EXHAUSTING, GRUELING, STRESSFUL TIME TO BE ENGAGED WITH POLITICS IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S ONLY -- TEMPERATURES ARE ONLY GOING TO RISE AS WE GET CLOSER TO OUR NATIONAL ELECTIONS NEXT YEAR, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS TENSIONS INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THERE IS TENSIONS INSIDE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THERE IS TENSIONS, OF COURSE, ACROSS THE AISLE.

IT'S A VERY FRAUGHT MOMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THOSE FRAYED NERVES WHERE OF COURSE KEVIN McCARTHY, THE SPEAKER WHO ALLEGEDLY WAS ELBOWING -- THAT WASN'T JUST A RANDOM MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

IT WAS ONE THE EIGHT REPUBLICANS WHO ENDED HIS SPEAKERSHIP.

AND IF YOU WONDERED DOES HE HAVE HARD FEELINGS, THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY YES.

AT LEAST IF YOU BELIEVE THE ACCOUNT OF THIS INCIDENT.

BUT RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE DYSFUNCTION IS ALMOST THE SYNONYM FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

THE ONLY GOOD NEWS THAT YOU LEFT OUT IS THEY DECIDED TO KICK OUR NEXT SPENDING CRISIS THIS WEEK DOWN THE ROAD INTO JANUARY, WHICH I SUPPOSE IS GOOD NEWS, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT AT LEAST THEY CAN GO UP AND HAVE THEIR HOLIDAY BREAK AND THEY EVEN GAVE THEMSELVES EXTRA TIME FOR THE HOLIDAY.

>> YES.

SPEAKER JOHNSON ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HIS PREDECESSOR, SPEAKER McCARTHY, COULD NOT IN A RELATIVELY SIMILAR BILL AND THAT IS KEEPING SPENDING LEVELS AT THE CURRENT LEVEL FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

BUT WHAT WAS MISSING, NOTABLY MISSING, FROM THIS STOPGAP SPENDING BILL, WHICH THE PRESIDENT, INCIDENTALLY, SIGNED THIS WEEK, WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

A TOP PRIORITY FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION AND DEMOCRATS AND MANY REPUBLICANS, AND THAT IS FUNDING FOR AID TO ISRAEL, UKRAINE, AND THEN TAIWAN AND EVEN BORDER FUNDING.

THIS IS THAT THE PRESIDENT BEEN HOPING TO ACCOMPLISH BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PREDICAMENT THIS ADMINISTRATION FINDS ITSELF IN, IN GETTING THAT AID IN TIME?

BECAUSE, AS WE KNOW, THAT MONEY IS REALLY DEPLETING, ESPECIALLY ON THE UKRAINIAN FRONT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S MAJOR FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITIES AT THIS POINT ARE ALL WRAPPED UP, AND THEIR FATE IS LINKED TO CONGRESS, WHICH AS WE HAVE JUST SEEN IS JUST A HOTBED OF DYSFUNCTION RIGHT NOW.

BIDEN HAS ASKED CONGRESS TO SEND HIM $105 BILLION SUPPLEMENTAL BILL THAT WOULD PAY FOR SOME OF THESE FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITIES AS WELL AS THE BORDER.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF THAT MONEY IN THAT BILL, 60 BILLION OUT OF THE 105 BILLION, WOULD BE FOR UKRAINE.

THERE IS A REAL URGENCY TO THAT.

IN FACT, THERE WAS A PENTAGON SPOKESPERSON QUOTEED THIS WEEK AS SAYING THEY WERE DOWN TO THEIR LAST BILLION OF PREVIOUSLY AUTHORIZED FUNDS.

JOE BIDEN HAS SAID TO THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, THE UNITED STATES WILL BE THERE AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

HE HAS REPEATED THAT QUOTE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

YET, HONESTLY, WE CAN'T GUARANTEE WE WILL BE THERE PAST NEXT WEEK IN A MEANINGFUL SENSE.

SO THE U.S. HAS MADE THIS EXTRAORDINARY COMMITMENT.

THIS IS BY SOME MEASURES THE LARGEST SUCH MILITARY ASSISTANCE THE U.S. HAS GIVEN SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II AND THE MARSHALL PLAN.

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITY TO HELP UKRAINE RESIST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, AND YET ITS FATE IS COMPLETELY UP IN THE AIR.

THERE IS STILL A BIPARTISAN MAJORITY, I SHOULD SAY, IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE TO GET THIS MONEY.

THE PROBLEM IS THE LEADERSHIP IN THE HOUSE AND THE GROWING MOMENTUM BEHIND THE KIND OF WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL THE PRO-TRUMP ANTI-UKRAINE FORCES IN THE HOUSE GETTING THAT TO A VOTE ON THE FLOOR, NOBODY SEES THE PATHWAY TO THAT AT THE MOMENT.

>> AS WE HEARD FROM CHRISTIANE'S INTERVIEW WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA, KAJA KALLAS, THIS IS A REAL CONCERN FOR ALLIES IN EUROPE WHEN THEY SEE THE PRESIDENT COMING UP THIS TYPE OF RESISTANCE FROM MANY IN CONGRESS TO PROVIDING ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR UKRAINE AND FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO IS THE LEADING FRONTRUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION, NOW HAS BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT HIS STANCE ON THE WAR AND CONTINUED FUNDING.

YOU SPEAK TO ANY EXPERT, YOURSELF INCLUDED, THIS IS WHAT THE RUSSIANS AND VLADIMIR PUTIN ARE BANKING ON.

THEY ARE HOPING TO SEE ANOTHER TRUMP PRESIDENCY BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT WOULD REALLY IMPACT THE DIRECTION THIS WAR TAKES.

THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT THE PRESIDENT, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HAS SAID THAT HE WILL IMPLEMENT IF HE IS REELECTED.

LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER PLANS THAT HE HAS BEEN TRANSPARENT ABOUT IF HE WINS.

THEY INCLUDE ROUNDING UP MIGRANTS, PLACING THEM IN MASSIVE DETENTION, PUNCHING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND REPLACING THEM WITH HIS LOYALISTS AND OF COURSE USING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO HARASS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

WE WILL GET TO HIS LANGUAGE THAT HE HAS USED IN JUST A MINUTE.

BUT JUST ON THE POLICIES THEMSELVES, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FACT THAT HE'S BEING TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT HE PLANS TO DO, YET WE ARE NOT SEEING MUCH PUSHBACK FROM REPUBLICANS, EVEN THOSE RUNNING FOR THE NOMINATION AGAINST HIM, AND WE'RE NOT SEEING MUCH IMPACT IN THE POLLS RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, LOOK, YOU KNOW, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS LARGELY MADE A CHOICE, WHICH TO CONTINUE TO BE THE TRUMP REPUBLICAN PARTY, EVEN AFTER HIS UNPRECEDENTED EFFORT TO REMAIN IN POWER AFTER LOSING THE 2020 ELECTION.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, REALLY YOU'VE SEEN A KIND OF YEARS OF PURGING OF ANTI-TRUMP REPUBLICANS OR MARGINALIZING THEM, MOVING THEM TO THE SIDELINES, MEMBERS -- RATHER THAN TO CONTINUE ON.

SO IT'S ACTUALLY A TRUMPIER REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MANY WAYS THAN IT WAS, EVEN JUST A FEW YEARS AGO SO THAT'S PART OF IT.

TRUMP WOULD REPRESENT A RADICAL SHIFT, A RADICAL SHIFT IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

THERE IS NO SECRET, AS YOU SAID, TO HUSBAND AGENDA.

IN MANY WAYS, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HIS AGENDA HIS SECOND TERM IS, LOOK TO UNFINISHED BUSINESS OF THE FIRST TERM, THINGS HE WANTED TO TO THAT HE CONSISTENTLY SPOKE OF BUT THAT HE WAS CONSTRAINED IN SOME WAY EITHER BY HIS OWN ADVISORS WHO TURNED OUT NOT TO BE AS TRUMPY AS HE WANTED THEM TO OBJECT OR BY THE COURTS OR BY CONGRESS.

SO THOSE FORM THE BASIS.

DONALD TRUMP HAS ALWAYS SPOKEN OF USING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO GO UP AGAINST HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

THAT'S WHAT HE TRIED TO DO, WHICH LED TO HIS FIRST IMPEACHMENT AND LED TO HIS RIFT WITH HIS SECOND ATTORNEY GENERAL, BILL BARR, IN THE FALL OF 2020 WHEN HE DEMANDED WHERE ARE THE INDICTMENTS OF BIDEN AND THE LIKE.

AND SO, OF COURSE TRUMP NOW JUST HAS MORE GRIEVANCE.

HE'S GOT 91 FELONY COUNTS.

HE'S GOT FOUR DIFFERENT CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS.

SO WHEN HE SPEAKS OF HIS CAMPAIGN AGENDA NOW, HE USES THE WORD RETRIBUTION AND TERMINATION AS IN TERMINATION OF THE CONSTITUTION IF THAT'S WHAT'S NECESSARY TO PUT HIM BACK IN POWER.

WE SHOULD STTAKE THAT SERIOUSLY >> HE ALSO USED THE WORD VURMEN, WHICH IS REPETITION OF WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM ADOLF HITLER DIRECTLY.

I MEAN, THAT IS THE EXACT WORD THAT ADOLF HITLER USED, TRUMP USING IN DESCRIBING HIS OPPONENTS.

LISTEN, IT JUST SPEAKS TO THE HISTORY OF THE TYPE OF LANGUAGE, SHOCKING LANGUAGE THAT, SADLY, HAS BECOME MORE OR LESS THE NORM TO BE EXPECTED FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE JUST SAID THIS PAST SUMMER IN JUNE AS WELL.

>> THIS IS THE FINAL BATTLE WITH YOU AT MY SIDE, WE WILL DEMOLISH THE DEEP STATE.

WE WILL EXPEL THE WAR MONGERS FROM OUR GOVERNMENT.

WE WILL DRIVE OUT THE GLOBALISTS.

WE WILL CAST OUT THE COMMUNISTS.

WE WILL THROW OFF THE SICK POLITICAL CLASS THAT HATES OUR COUNTRY.

>> YOU KNOW, FORMER OPPONENT HILARY CLINTON SAID WE SHOULD BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET -- AND FOR PEOPLE THAT YOU TALK TO IN YOUR REPORTING, HOW IS THIS LANGUAGE BEING INTERPRETED AT THIS POINT?

>> LOOK, DONALD TRUMP IS USING THE LANGUAGE OF DICTATORS HE IS SPEAKING IN TERMS TO DEHUMANIZE HIS OPPONENTS, TO DEGRADE THEM, TO MAKE THEM NON-HUMAN, SUBHUMAN.

THIS IS THE TECHNIQUE OF DEMAGOGUES AND DICTATORS I REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT WRITING A WHOLE COLUMN ABOUT HIS USE OF THE PHRASE HUMAN SCUM.

YOU KNOW, I LOOKED WHERE ANY OTHER EXAMPLES OF INCUMBENT HEADS OF STATE USING THE TERM HUMAN SCUM, AND THE ANSWER IS ESSENTIALLY THERE ARE ONLY EXAMPLES OF DICTATORS USING THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT HUMAN SCUM ARE PEOPLE LIKE KIM JONG-UN, YOU KNOW, TRUMP'S SIGNATURE PHRASE AGAINST US MEDIA FOLK WAS ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE.

THAT WAS THE SPECIFIC TERM USED IN STALIN'S RUSSIA TO CONDEMN MILLIONS TO THE GULAG.

AND DONALD TRUMP, HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN IGNORANT THE FIRST TIME HE SAID IT, BUT HE WAS CERTAINLY TOLD AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN WHAT IT MEANT.

HE IS DOING THIS ON PURPOSE.

THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENT.

THIS IS A WINDOW INTO THE THINKING OF THE MAN WHO WOULD BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AGAIN.

>> SUSAN, I FEEL WE WILL BE HAVING MANY MORE OF THESE TYPES OF CONVERSATIONS IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME.

IN THE MEANTIME, THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING ON AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, IN A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT IN POSITION, ISRAEL NOW SAYS THAT IT WILL ALLOW TWO FUEL TANKERS A DAY INTO GAZA TO SUPPORT WATER AND SEWAGE PROCESSING IN THE ENCLAVE.

MEDICAL STAFF IN GAZA HAVE BEEN WAR WARNING ABOUT THE SERIOUS THREAT POSED BY THE LACK OF CLEAN WATER AND SPREAD OF DISEASES.

1.5 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED, MOST FLED SOUTH.

A PALESTINIAN JOURNALIST RECORDED HIS FAMILY'S HARROWING JOURNEY SHOWING US THE MANY DANGERS ALONG THE WAY.

CORRESPONDENT JOMANA KARADSHEH HAS HIS STORY.

A WARNING.

SOME OF THE SCENES IN HER REPORT ARE GRAPHIC.

>> Reporter: GAZA CITY.

A 2-YEAR-OLD DISTRACT THE THROUGH THE FAMILY'S MOST DIFFICULT NIGHT OF THE WAR SO FAR.

WITH DAYBREAK, THE ISRAEL MILITARY CALLS WITH AN ORDER.

YOU HAVE 13 MINUTES TO GET OUT.

IT WAS 9:30 A.M. NOVEMBER 10.

WITH MAKESHIFT WHITE FLAGS, THE MILITARY TOLD THEM TO HOLD UP.

THEY PREPARED TO MOVE.

>> Reporter: WITH THE LITTLE THEY CAN CARRY, THEY HEAD OUT AND INTO THE UNKNOWN.

SOME TOO FRAIL TO WALK.

JOURNALIST IS FILMING THE FORCED EVACUATION OF HIS FAMILY ALONG WITH 30 OF THEIR NEIGHBORS.

HIS PHONE IN HIS RIGHT HAND AND IN THE OTHER HIS SON.

HE SPEAKS FRENCH WITH HIS SON, LOOKING FOR HIS WIFE AHEAD.

WHILE WAITING FOR OTHER ELDERLY NEIGHBORS, STRUGGLING TO CATCH UP.

>> Reporter: THAT CONSTANT BUZZ YOU HEAR ISRAELI DRONES OVERHEAD.

IT'S BEEN THE SOUNDTRACK OF GAZA FOR YEARS.

AS THEY GET TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET, RAMI SPOTS HIS NEIGHBOR.

SOMETHING'S NOT RIGHT.

>> Reporter: AKHMED WAS SHOT IN THE HEAD.

HE DIDN'T MAKE IT.

AND AROUND THE CORNER, TWO OTHERS, A MAN AND WOMAN ALSO SHOT.

IT'S UNCERTAIN WHO OPENED FIRE ON THE GROUP.

CNN GEOLOCATED THE VIDEOS AND TRACED THIS DEADLY JOURNEY OUT OF GAZA CITY.

WE PROVIDED THE MILITARY WITH THE COORDINATES, BUT THEY DIDN'T RESPOND TO OUR REQUEST FOR COMMENTED.

HELLO.

WE REACHED RAMI NOW IN THE SOUTH.

LIKE MOST HERE, THEY WERE ON THEIR OWN.

THEY GOT TO SHIFA HOSPITAL.

BUT SO DID THE WAR.

WITNESS TO IT ALL, 2-YEAR-OLD WALID.

>> I KEPT TRYING TO MACH SURE HE IS NOT SCARED AND WHAT HE IS SEEING A CIRCUS OR AMUSEMENT PARK.

I DON'T KNOW IF I SUCCEEDED.

EVEN THE JOURNEY OF HUMILIATION WHERE YOU TAKE A DONKEY HERE AND HORSE THERE, I WAS TRYING TO MAKE THAT ENTERTAINING FOR HIM.

>> Reporter: YOU ASKED RAMI WHY HE DECIDED TO FILM.

>> Translator: I WANT THIS TO GET TO THE WORLD SO THEY KNOW THE INJUSTICE WE'RE FACING.

THEY CAST DOUBT ON EVERYTHING WE DO.

THEY ARE STRONGER IN EVERY WAY.

NOT JUST MILITARILY, BUT THE INFORMATION AND NARRATIVE THAT COMES OUT, THE NEWS THAT COMES OUT.

WHAT THEY SAY IS THE TRUTH AND OUR WORDS ARE LIES.

PLEASE, JUST DELIVER OUR MESSAGE.

I DON'T WANT ANYTHING ELSE.

I DON'T WANT ALL THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED TO HAVE DIED IN VAIN.

>> Reporter: RAMI DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY'LL DO NOW, BUT SAYS HE WILL ONLY LEAVE HIS HOMELAND, FORCED AT GUNPOINT OR DEAD.

>> ISRAEL SAYS THEY HAVE TRIED TO CALL PEOPLE IN GAZA TO EVACUATE AREAS WHERE MILITARY OPERATIONS ARE UNDERWAY TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN WORLDWIDE CRITICISM ON NUMBER OF DEATHS IN GAZA OF THE HAMAS CONTROLLED GAZA MINISTRY OF HEALTH SAYS 11,400 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, INCLUDING 4,700 CHILDREN.

>>> WELL, THE AUTHOR STEPHANIE LAND BECAME AN OVERNIGHT SENSATION WITH HER DEBUT MEMOIR "MAID."

A LONG, HARD LOOK AT HER IMPOVERISHED BEGINNINGS AND TRIAL SHE FACED AS A SINGLE PARENT.

IT BECAME A BESTSELLER AND WAS TURNED INTO A HUGELY SUCCESSFUL NETFLIX SERIES.

WE COVERED THAT HERE ON THE SHOW.

NOW LAND IS BACK WITH A SEQUEL CALLED "CLASS" WHICH DIGS INTO HOW HER STRUGGLES DIDN'T END ONCE SHE CGOT INTO COLLEGE WHIC IS WHERE "MAID" ENDED.

IN FACT, MANY THINGS BECAME HARDER.

SHE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IT ALL.

THIS IS ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS, ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.

>> THANK YOU.

STEPHANIE LAND, THANK YOU FOR TO US.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT YOUR LAST BOOK, "MAID."

IT MADE HUGE WAVES.

IT WAS A "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLER.

LED TO THIS NETFLIX SERIES THAT AT THE TIME ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SERIES THEY HAD EVER HAD.

I JUST, YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT AND GOING BACK TO THE BOOK AND IT ENDS WITH, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU WOULD THINK IS THE HOLLYWOOD ENDING.

YOU GET TO GO TO COLLEGE, WHICH HAD BEEN YOUR DREAM.

BUT IT KIND OF WASN'T.

WHY WASN'T IT THAT HOLLYWOOD ENDING WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE?

>> WELL, "MAID" ENDED ON A LITERAL HIGH NOTE.

WE CLIMBED UP A MOUNTAIN AND HAD THIS, LIKE, JOYOUS MOMENT, AND OVER THE YEARS PEOPLE HAVE SAID, LIKE, I'M SO GLAD YOU HAD YOUR HAPPY ENDING.

I JUST KIND OF THOUGHT, LIKE, OH, I GOT KIND OF REALLY HARD AFTER THAT.

AND IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD TO GO TO CLASS IN PERSON.

OF COURSE, THAT LIMITED THE AMOUNT OF HOURS I COULD WORK.

AND GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS DON'T COUNT THE HOURS THAT YOU SPEND IN CLASS AS WORK FOR WORK REQUIREMENTS.

SO THE AMOUNT OF ASSISTANCE THAT I WAS GETTING FOR FOOD AND HOUSING AND EVERYTHING WAS DIMINISHED BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> THE STORY PICKS UP WITH YOU MOVING TO MISSOULA, MONTANA, WITH YOUR THEN-4-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER YOU CALL AMELIA.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THAT'S A THROUGH LINE BETWEEN THIS BOOK AND YOUR PREVIOUS BOOK JUST HOW PRECARIOUS IT ALL IS.

EVEN WHEN YOU'RE DOING WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, RIGHT?

JUST KIND OF WALK US THROUGH IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO, SAY, ENROLL, FOR EXAMPLE.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, THE THING THAT I IMMEDIATELY WAS SURPRISED BY WAS I THOUGHT THE RESIDENCY, YOU KNOW, HOW YOU GET A SMALLER AMOUNT OF TUITION IF YOU'RE A RESIDENT OF THE TOWN WHERE THE SCHOOL IS.

I THOUGHT THAT BECAUSE I HAD COMPLETELY MOVED MY WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE THERE, THAT MADE ME AN IMMEDIATE RESIDENT.

BUT THAT WASN'T THE CASE.

SO I HAD TO PROVE THAT I WAS A RESIDENT OVER A YEAR BEFORE I WOULD GET THE DECREASED TUITION.

I THINK WHAT I REALLY DIDN'T REALIZE WOULD BE SUCH A HUGE NEED WOULD BE THE CHILDCARE.

THE CLASSES, YOU KNOW, THEY TRIED TO MAKE THEM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF BLEND TOGETHER SO I COULD GROUP THEM INTO TWO DAYS A WEEK OR SOMETHING AND I COULD WORK MONDAY, WEDNESDAY, FRIDAY.

BUT A LOT OF MY CLASSES WENT INTO THE EVENING, AND THAT REQUIRED A BABYSITTER, BECAUSE THAT WAS AFTER DAY CARE HOURS OR PUBLIC SCHOOL HOURS.

AND THAT WAS MOST OF MY STRESS, WAS JUST MAKING SURE THAT SOMEONE WAS TAKING CARE OF MY DAUGHTER WHILE I WAS IN A CLASS THAT IS WAY REQUIRED TO ATTEND.

>> THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF THE GRANTS.

NOW I THINK PEOPLE ARE AWARE BECAUSE IT'S BEEN VERY MUCH IN THE NEWS, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED BY IT.

JUST HOW MUCH DEBT PEOPLE CAN GET INTO TRYING TO FINISH A DEGREE.

A DEGREE THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE NEED JUST TO FUNCTION IN THIS ECONOMY.

>> YEAH.

SO I DID RECEIVE A FULL PELL GRANT, AND I HAD A SMALL TUITION THAT CAME OUT TO BE ABOUT $2,000 A SEMESTER.

AND I DID TAKE OUT THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF LOANS.

WHAT THE LOANS ACTUALLY WENT TO WAS MY LIVING EXPENSES.

SO IT CAME OUT TO BE ABOUT $1,000 A MONTH THAT I BUDGETED FOR VERY HEAVILY.

AND SO WHEN I GRADUATED SCHOOL, EVEN THOUGH I'D ONLY TAKEN OUT LOANS FOR I THINK THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OF SCHOOL, I WAS 45 TO $50,000 IN DEBT JUST FROM THAT.

YOU.

>> WHAT MADE YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?

>> THE PART OF THIS STORY THAT I THINK IS THE MOST MEANINGFUL TO ME IN JUST HOW IT HAS AFFECTED ME AS A PERSON, AS A HUMAN BEING, WAS I WAS KICKED OFF OF FOOD STAMPS BECAUSE I COULD NOT MEET THE WORK REQUIREMENTS.

I NEEDED TO WORK 20 HOURS A WEEK WHILE GOING TO SCHOOL FULL TIME IN ORDER TO RECEIVE FOOD STAMPS, BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER WAS OVER 6 YEARS OLD.

AND THAT REALLY -- THAT IS SOMETHING I STILL STRUGGLE WITH TODAY, IS JUST FEELING LIKE I SOMEHOW DON'T DESERVE FOOD IF I CAN'T WORK ENOUGH FOR IT.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN THOSE WORK REQUIREMENTS WERE BEING DEBATED, AS THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, OFF AND ON THROUGH THE LAST, YOU KNOW, COUPLE OF DECADES, IT THAT KIND OF CONCEPT IN THE MODERN ERA CAME IN DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

YOU WRITE A LOT ABOUT THAT.

YOU SAID ALL GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS OPERATED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT EVERY PERSON WHO WALKED INTO THE OFFICE BROUGHT THE POSSIBILITY OF SCAMMING THEM IN SOME WAY.

WE WERE ASKED DETAILED QUESTIONS ABOUT ASSETS, WHAT KIND OF CAR WE DROVE, IF WE HAD A BURIAL PLOT TO DETERMINE IF THERE WAS MONEY HID.

IT WAS RIDICULOUS TO IMAGINE ANYONE WOULD SPEND HOURS AT A GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE OFFICE IN THE MIDDLE OF AT THE WORK DAY TO POSSIBLY LEAVE WITH A COUPLE HUNDRED BUCKS A MONTH FOR FOOD.

THIS IS HOUR I SPENT HOURS ENTIRE WORK DAYS CONVINCING AUTHORITIES THAT I WASN'T A CRIMINAL.

THESE INVASIONS PRIVACY CAUSED ME TO FUDGE IT'S AND SQUIRM.

I SUBMITTED BECAUSE IT WAS ANOTHER MEANS TO AN END.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN IT OCCURRED TO YOU THAT THAT'S KIND OF WHAT IT WAS?

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT, OR THAT THEY ASSUME YOU ARE TRYING TO SORT OF GET ONE OVER ON THEM?

>> I THINK OVER THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN OFF OF FOOD STAMPS SINCE EARLY 2016.

AND I HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT IT AND PAYING ATTENTION TO, YOU KNOW, THE CONVERSATIONS AROUND IT, ESPECIALLY IN THE MEDIA, AND I JUST -- I HAVE NOTICED A TREND THAT I THINK THAT THEY MAKE IT HARDER SO THAT LESS PEOPLE SIGN UP.

AND THERE IS TWO REASONS FOR THAT, I THINK, IS, YOU KNOW, THE STATES RECEIVE BLOCK GRANTS.

AND IF THE GRANTS ARNEN'T USED, THEY CAN USE THEM FOR OTHER THINGS.

THE LESS PEOPLE WHO SIGN UP, THE MORE PROGRESS IS BEING MADE AND THINGS ARE BETTER AND, YOU KNOW, SEE, WE DON'T EVEN NEED THESE PROGRAMS.

AND THERE IS ALWAYS THE WELFARE TO WORK THING.

YOU MENTIONED BILL CLINTON AND WELFARE REFORM AND THAT HAS BEEN THE ASSUMPTION SINCE THE BEGINNING OF WELFARE PROGRAMS, IT SEEMS, IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS ARE CHOOSING NOT TO WORK, AND THAT IS HARDLY EVER THE CASE.

MOST OF THE FAMILIES WHO ARE ON FOOD STAMPS ARE WORKING MULTIPLE JOBS SOMETIMES.

>> THE OTHER THROUGH LINE OF THE BOOK AND -- IS THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF WHAT YOU DESERVE.

LIKE, DO YOU DESERVE TO GO TO COLLEGE?

LIKE, DO YOU DESERVE TO DO WORK THAT YOU WANT TO DO AS OPPOSED TO WORK THAT YOU HAVE TO DO?

OR THAT YOU ARE WORTHY, OR IF YOU ARE ONLY WORTHY BECAUSE YOU'RE WORKING.

COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT AND WHAT THAT FEELING IS AND WHY YOU THINK IT'S SO PERVASIVE?

>> IT REALLY FELT LIKE NOT ONLY DID I NOT DESERVE TO BE THERE.

LIKE I NEVER IF FELT DESERVING OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

I NEVER FELT ENTITLED TO IT.

TO ME IT FELT LIKE I WAS TAKING UP SPACE.

I MEAN, I FELT LIKE I WAS NOT JUST AN IMPOSTOR, BUT, LIKE, I WAS THERE ON A GRANT, YOU KNOW, LIKE I COULDN'T FULLY PARTICIPATE IN A LOT OF THE COLLEGE ATMOSPHERE.

LIKE I COULDN'T HANG OUT FRIENDS.

I COULDN'T GO TO THE OUTSIDE OF CLASS ACTIVITIES THAT A LOT OF THE OTHER STUDENTS WERE GOING TO.

AND NOT JUST THE PIZZA PARTIES.

LIKE THE, YOU KNOW, THE READINGS OF AUTHORS THAT WERE VISITING IN TOWN AND THINGS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN MY DEGREE PROGRAM WERE GOING TO, AND I JUST, YOU KNOW, I WAS TEN YEARS OLDER THAN MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN MY CLASS, AND VERY MUCH FELT OUT OF PLACE.

LIKE I DIDN'T BELONG.

I REALLY FELT APOLOGETIC IF I NEEDED TO TAKE UP MY PROFESSOR'S TIME BECAUSE I JUST -- I FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, BEING ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE AND ALREADY RECEIVING SO MUCH HELP IN THAT WAY, LIKE I THINK IT JUST MESSED WITH ME A LOT, AND I JUST FELT LIKE I SHOULDN'T ASK FOR MORE HELP BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY GETTING A LOT THAT OTHER PEOPLE WEREN'T.

YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THERE IS -- THERE IS A THING -- WHEN YOU ARE HUNGRY AND YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO FEED YOURSELF TO THE POINT WHERE YOU ARE SATIATED, IT REALLY AFFECTS YOU, AND YOU HIDE FROM PEOPLE.

AND I DID MAY BEST TO HIDE THAT.

IT WAS EMBARRASSING TO NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.

>> DO YOU WRITE ABOUT KIND OF THE JUDGMENT THAT YOU GET FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING FAMILY MEMBERS.

I AM SORT OF PUZZLED BY WHY IT IS THAT SO FEW PEOPLE SEEM TO BE WILLING TO LET YOU DREAM.

I AM JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE?

>> IT WAS, YOU KNOW, DREAMS DON'T PAY THAT MUCH, AND IT TAKES A LOT TO SUCCEED.

ESPECIALLY IN THE ARTS.

AND SO THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE.

THERE WAS NO JOB AT THE END OF IT.

YOU KNOW, EVEN MY CLASSES IN COLLEGE DIDN'T TEACH ME HOW TO MAKE MONEY AS A WRITER.

AND SO THERE WAS REALLY THIS QUESTION OF, LIKE, YOU'RE DOING WHAT?

YOU'RE GETTING A DEGREE IN ENGLISH?

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THAT?

SO IT WAS VERY MUCH THIS, LIKE, I NEEDED TO BE ON A PATH WHERE EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS AND ALL OF THAT WAS AT THE END.

>> I HAVE AN AWKWARD QUESTION.

AGAIN, KIND OF YOUR BRAND IS HONESTY, RIGHT?

THE DECISION TO HAVE A SECOND CHILD WHEN YOU WERE ALREADY STRUGGLING TO BE THE PARENT YOU WANTED TO BE TO YOUR FIRST.

YOU TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK.

WILL YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK PEOPLE FEEL ENTITLED TO JUDGE, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THEY FEEL ENTITLED TO JUDGE.

AND SO I WANTED TO ASK IF YOU WOULD JUST TALK ABOUT THAT.

HOW YOU CAME TO THE DECISION THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO AND HAVE A SECOND CHILD, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ALREADY HARD TO HAVE ONE.

>> WELL, IT WASN'T A PLANNED THING.

IT WASN'T, YOU KNOW, I WAS PURPOSEFULLY TRYING.

BUT I DISCOVERED I WAS PREGNANT, AND I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED MY OLDEST TO HAVE A SIBLING.

YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH A LITTLE BROTHER.

SHE WAS ALWAYS ASKING FOR A LITTLE SISTER.

LIKE, SHE ASKED FOR A SANDWICH FOR LUNCH.

AND SO IT WAS JUST -- IT WAS SOMETHING I WANTED.

AND I HAVE EXPERIENCED SO MUCH JUDGMENT FROM THAT JUST BECAUSE OF MY ECONOMIC STATUS AT THE TIME.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S VERY -- THAT'S VERY UNIQUE SORT OF JUDGMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR.

AND I -- FOR ME, IT'S BEEN A CONVERSATION THAT I HAVE JUST KIND OF HAD OVER THE YEARS.

BUT LATELY IT'S JUST BEEN THIS -- SINCE I HAVE BEEN DOING SO MANY INTERVIEWS, IT'S JUST, LIKE, WHY CAN'T I CHOOSE TO HAVE A CHILD?

IN WRITING THE BOOK, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, I WROTE THE BOOK RIGHT AFTER THE OVERTURN OF ROE V. WADE.

AND I REALLY WANTED TO SHOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE A CHILD WITH ABSOLUTELY NO RESOURCES BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A UTERUS, IF THEY CAN'T GET AN ABORTION, THEN THEY SUDDENLY HAVE A CHILD TO TAKE CARE OF, AND DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECEIVE A LOT OF RESOURCES BECAUSE OF THAT.

I MEAN, THERE IS STILL -- IT'S VERY HARD.

AND SO PART OF ME REALLY WANTED TO SHOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE, TOO.

BUT FOR ME, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WANTED TO HAVE A BABY.

I WANTED TO HAVE TWO CHILDREN.

AND I WAS 35.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ALREADY CONSIDERED LIKE A GERIATRIC PREGNANCY AND STUFF.

SO I THOUGHT MY TIME WAS RUNNING OUT, AND THAT WAS THE CHOICE I MADE.

>> SO INTERESTING, AND ALSO YOUR -- HOW YOU FEEL YOU KIND OF CHANGED BETWEEN YOUR FIRST BOOK AND YOUR SECOND.

OR HAVE YOU?

>> OH, WELL, I MEAN, THE VOICE AND KIND OF MY CHARACTER ARE VERY DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE FIRST BOOK AND THE SECOND.

YOU KNOW, THE FIRST BOOK, I WROTE IT IN A VERY APOLOGETIC, YOU KNOW, PLEASE, SIR, COULD I HAVE SOME MORE, YOU KNOW, OLIVER TWIST TYPE OF CHARACTER.

AND I FELT APOLOGETIC FOR JUST BEING A PERSON IN THAT STORY, YOU KNOW, FOR BEING A PERSON WHO IS ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE.

IN WRITING THE SECOND BOOK, I DISCOVERED THAT I WAS PRETTY ANGRY ABOUT WHAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH, AND I HAD THE -- I FELT I HAD THE PLATFORM, YOU KNOW, I HAD THE CLOUT, I HAD THE NETFLIX SERIES AND ALL OF THAT THAT I FELT LIKE IT MIGHT BE ACCEPTED TO HEAR AN ANGRY WOMAN WRITE A WHOLE BOOK AND TALK ABOUT HOW ANGRY SHE IS ABOUT SOMETHING.

AND A LOT OF THAT WAS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION.

AND I HAVE A NEW SENSE OF NORMALCY.

I HAVE A LOT MORE PRIVILEGE THAN I DID THEN.

AND I STILL HAD PRIVILEGE THEN.

JUST AS A WHITE PERSON IN THAT SITUATION.

BUT NOW IT'S LIKE TO GO BACK AND TRULY LIVE IN THAT TIME AND ABSORB IT AND WRITE ABOUT IT AND WRITE FROM THAT SPACE, I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT.

AND IT MADE ME ANGRY.

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE ARE IN AN EVEN MEANER TIME NOW THAN THEN.

I'M WONDERING, LIKE, HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW?

DO YOU STILL FEEL ANGRY?

DO YOU FEEL HOPEFUL IN ANY WAY?

>> THERE WAS A TIME THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC I FELT HOPE.

AND IT WAS REALLY INCREDIBLE TO SEE SO MANY PEOPLE REALIZING, LIKE EVEN BIDEN TWEETED THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE A SICK DAY, AND ALL OVER THE NEWS WERE RESTAURANT WORKERS WHO SUDDENLY COULDN'T PAY RENT BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN OUT OF WORK FOR TWO WEEKS.

AND WE CALLED WORKERS ESSENTIAL, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS KIND OF SAD, TO BE HONEST, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THOSE WERE PEOPLE WHO COULD NOT AFFORD TO NOT GO TO WORK.

THEY WERE ALSO FORCED TO GO TO WORK IN A PANDEMIC.

BUT THERE WAS JUST THIS MOMENT OF, LIKE, OH MY GOODNESS, THESE PEOPLE, THEY NEED HELP.

WE NEED TO HELP THEM.

AND YOU HAD THE UNEMPLOYMENT EXPANSION.

YOU HAD THE CHILD TAX CREDIT EXPANSION.

YOU HAD ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS BEGIN, AND THEN THEY ENDED.

AND EVERYBODY WENT BACK INTO POVERTY AND, YOU KNOW, WE WERE ABLE TO SHOW HOW MUCH POOR PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO BENEFIT FROM HAVING SOME MONEY, AND THEN IT DOES APPEARED AGAIN.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE CRUX OF ALL OF THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE AMERICAN BOOTSTRAP MYTH, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WORK HARD ENOUGH, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE IT.

SO IF YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT, YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

BUT THERE IS ALSO JUST THIS -- WE DON'T TRUST POOR PEOPLE WITH MONEY.

AND WE DON'T THINK THAT THEY DESERVE NICE THINGS.

AND I THINK -- WHEN ALL OF THOSE ARGUMENTS START UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE START CRYING ABOUT WORK REQUIREMENTS AND HOW WE CAN'T JUST GIVE PEOPLE A FREE LUNCH AND THEY NEED TO WORK FOR IT FIRST, LIKE, THAT'S THE BASIS OF THAT ARGUMENT, IS A BELIEF THAT POOR PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

>> STEPHANIE LAND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING US WITH AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WE GET TO TALK AGAIN.

>> WE CAN'T WAIT EITHER.

>>> AND FINALLY, THIS WEEK MARKS A MONTH SINCE THE PASSING OF STEPHEN RUBIN.

THE MAN BEHIND SOME OF THE MOST BELOVED WRITERS AND BIGGEST BOOKS, WORKING WITH THE LIKES OF DAN BROWN, HILARY MANTEL AND JOHN GRISHAM.

THE VETERAN PUBLISHER DIED LAST MONTH AT THE AGE OF 81.

REMEMBERING HIS LIFE AND LEGACY, WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH HIM WHERE THEY DISCUSSED RUBIN'S OWN MEMOIR, "WORDS AND MUSIC: CONFESSIONS OF AN OPTIMIST."

>> COULD I ASK YOU BEFORE I GO ON TO THESE GREAT WRITERS THAT YOU DISCOVERED, YOU ARE AN OPTIMIST.

IT SAYS CONFESSIONS OF AN OPTIMIST.

ABOUT PUBLISHING, DO YOU REMAIN AN OPTIMIST?

>> I DO.

>> ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE READING BOOKS?

>> I DO.

FOR YEARS THEY HAVE BEEN PREDICTING THE DEATH OF THE BOOK, WHICH IS A LOT OF CRAP BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE THE TACTILE EXPERIENCE OF READING A BOOK.

I LOVE IT.

I'M SURE YOU LOVE IT.

I'D MUCH RATHER READ A BOOK THAN READ A BOOK ON A DEVICE.

SO, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND IN FACT, SALES ARE BETTER THAN EVER.

THE PANDEMIC, PEOPLE READ A LOT OF BOOKS.

THEY REALLY DID.

LET'S GO TO ONE OF THE FIRST BIG, BIG AUTHORS, JOHN GRISHAM.

YOU WERE BROUGHT "THE FIRM."

I GUESS IT'S HIS FIRST BIG BOOK, RIGHT?

>> YES, WHEN I JOINED DOUBLE DAY, HE WAS ALREADY THERE.

I DIDN'T ACQUIRE IT.

AND I READ IT AND I SAID, OH, MY GOD.

HE WAS SUCH A WHIRLWIND, SUCH NARRATIVE FORCE.

SO WE DECIDED THAT WHAT WE'LL DO IS, REMEMBER, NO ONE OF HEARD OF JOHN GRISHAM AT THAT POINT.

WE DECIDED TO MARKET IT TO LAWYERS.

IT SEEMS LIKE THE RIGHT PLACE TO GO.

THAT'S HOW WE STARTED.

WE HAD A 25,000 FIRST PRINTING.

AND I NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.

IT TOOK OFF PLAYOFFS WORD OF MOUTH, WHICH IS STILL, BY THE WAY, CHRISTIANE, THE BEST WAY TO SELL A BOOK.

SOL HE JUST TOOK OFF AND TOOK OFF AND TOOK OFF.

IT WAS THE CLEANEST SALE EVER BECAUSE THERE WERE NO RETURNS BECAUSE ALL WE EVER DID WAS REPRINT.

THEN HE IS A VERY HANDSOME GUY.

SO WE PLASTERED HIS FACE ALL OVER THE ADS AND EVERYTHING.

HE REALLY DIDN'T LIKE THAT.

EP DIDN'T WANT TO BE, YOU KNOW, A MODEL KIND OF THING.

HE WANTS JUST TO MAKE ME ANGRY, HE ONCE INSISTED ON BEING PUBLISHED WITH HAVING NOT HAD A SHAVE.

BUT IT ALL WORK THE.

I MEAN, IT WAS JUST AMAZING.

WHAT A THRILLING RIDE TO BE ON.

IT JUST GOT BETTER AND BETTER.

>> AND YOU SAID -- >> HE STILL DOING IT.

>> 23 BOOKS, I THINK, YOU ALL PUBLISHED TOGETHER.

>> I PUBLISHED.

>> YEAH.

EXACTLY.

AND BUT THE OTHER BIG ONE, WHICH KIND OF AGAIN CAME OUT OF NOWHERE, EXPLAIN TO ME WIHETHER IT DID, DAN BROWN AND THE DI VINCI CODE.

>> HE PUBLISHED THREE NOVELS THAT WERE MODEST SUCCESSES, AND HIS EDITOR LEFT THE PUBLISHING HOUSE AND CAME TO US AND BROUGHT US A PROPOSAL FOR "THE DA VINCI CODE" WHICH WE THOUGHT WAS GREAT.

WE BOUGHT IT.

TWO, ACTUALLY, FOR, I CAN TELL YOU.

$400,000.

JUST THINK.

AND HE GAVE US 150 PAGES TO START WITH, WHICH HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BLOODLINE OF CHRIST, AND WE READ IT AND SAID, OH, MY GOD, THIS IS AMAZING.

SO WHAT I DID WAS CHOSE 15 PEOPLE TO GIVE IT TO, AND ALL 15 OF THEM, MALE, FEMALE, OLD, YOUNG, EDITORIAL, SALES, EVERYTHING, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM FELL IN LOVE WITH IT.

SO WE KNEW, IN MY MIND, THAT'S A MICROCOSM OF THE WORLD OUT THERE.

WE KNEW WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL.

THEN WE MET HIM.

OH, MY GOD, HE WAS SO CHARMING.

SO WE SENT HIM OUT TO MEET EVERYBODY.

EVENTUALLY, WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT BARNES & NOBLE REALLY TOOK A GREAT STANCE ON IT AND THEN BORDERS HEARD ABOUT IT, TOOK A STANCE AT IT.

FOR A GUY WHO NEVER SOLD ANYTHING, WE SHIPPED 220,000 COPIES DAY ONE.

>> WOW.

>> AT THE END OF DAY ONE, HE SOLD MORE COPIES THAN HIS PREVIOUS THREE BOOKS PUT TOGETHER.

>> WELL, AND THE REST IS HISTORY.

FILMS.

YOU KNOW, TOM HANKS.

>> EVERYTHING.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THE NICEST GUY IN THE WORLD.

>> YOU WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE PERSON THAT WE BOTH KNEW, JACKIE ONASSIS.

THAT'S HOW I MET YOU.

SHE WAS AN EDITOR AT DOUBLE DAY.

THERE IS A STORY HERE THAT I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT.

I WANT TO READ IT.

SHE -- YOU ASKED HER TO, YOU KNOW, TO HELP ON A BOOK BY MAYA ANGELOU.

HERE IS THE EXTRACT.

SURPRISINGLY SHE COULD ALSO BE VERY INSECURE.

WE ONCE WERE SCHEDULED TO HAVE A CONFERENCE CALL WITH MAYA ANGELOU AND AS WE WERE PREPARING JACKIE DEMANDED I ASK ALL THE TOUGH QUESTIONS.

WHY, I RESPONDED?

SHE SCARES ME, JACKIE SAID.

MAYBE YOU SCARE HER, I SAID.

NO WAY, JACKIE SAID HER SIGNATURE WHISPERY, CAMPY, UNMISTAKABLE VOICE.

WHY WAS JACKIE ONASSIS SCARED OF MAYA ANGELOU?

>> DO YOU KNOW MAYA ANGELOU?

>> SHE WOULD TERRIFY ME.

>> YES, SHE WAS TERRIFYING.

AND JACKIE WAS REALLY, REALLY NERVOUS.

AGAIN THEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAD TO DEAL WITH JACKIE WERE NERVOUS AS WELL.

THE INTERVIEW, NOTHING EVER CAME OF IT.

IT WAS A PERFECTLY GOOD INTERVIEW.

JACKIE WAS SURPRISED, COULD BE SURPRISING, ABSOLUTELY.

>> GOOD EDITOR?

>> SHE WAS VERY MODEST.

>> GOOD EDITOR?

>> OH, MY GOD, YEAH.

THE WRITERS ADORED HER.

>> AND I WANT TO ASK -- WHAT?

>> ONE THING WHERE SHE SAID TO ONE OF HER WRITERS, DON'T TELL ANYONE I'M GOING TO GET YOU MONEY.

YOU KNOW?

[ LAUGHTER ] >> THAT'S FUNNY.

>> I JUST ADORED HER.

>> YOU FINISHED THE BOOKLETLY YOUR LAST LINE SAYING OPTIMISM WAS YOUR LONE STAR.

OF COURSE, THE SUBTITLE.

THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER YOU SAY, AS I LOOK BACK, IT AMIZES ME HOW MANY EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITIES SEEMED TO HAVE FALLEN INTO MY LAP.

I KNOW I WAS PUSHY, CHEEKY, EVEN AUDACIOUS AT TIMES, BUT THERE WAS NEVER A MASTER PLAN, A STRATAGEM.

JUST OPTIMISM.

UNPACK THAT.

>> TRUE.

IT'S TRUE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE?

PEOPLE HAVE POINTED OUT TO ME, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, I COULD HAVE SAID CONFESSIONS OF AN ENTHUSIAST ALWAYS BECAUSE I AM AN OPTIMIST AND ENTHUSIAST.

I KNOW THAT PEOPLE THINK I'M SILLY SOMETIMES.

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN BECAUSE THAT'S WHO I AM AND THAT'S HOW I FEEL.

THEY FEEL I'M NAIVE.

TRUST ME, I'M NOT NAIVE.

BUT I'LL GO THE POSITIVE ROUTE ANYTIME.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/"AMANPOUR & CO." THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

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