Roger Ross Williams’ Work Is Personal

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, now in the U.S., the film industry is still falling short on diverse representation, both on screen and off. According to UCLA’s latest report, only 16 percent of last year’s top Hollywood releases were directed by people of color. Our next guest, Roger Ross Williams, was the first African American director to win an Oscar and now has a collection of Emmy and Peabody awards under his belt. Still, his journey has been an uphill battle. Released this week, Williams’ new documentary, “Stamped from the Beginning,” explores the roots of anti-black racism in the country.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Racist ideas of African people as beastly worthy of enslavement started circulating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it worked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happens when we tell these myths about who black people are and what their role in American society is?

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GOLODRYGA: And he joins Michel Martin to discuss further.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Roger Ross Williams, thank you so much for talking with us. Welcome.

ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, “CASSANDRO,” “STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING”AND “THE SUPER MODELS”: Yes, it’s great to be here. Thank you.

MARTIN: So, Academy Award-winning director. How does it feel to hear it?

WILLIAMS: It still feels special when people say that. You know, for the rest of my life, I will always be known as Academy Award-winning director. And what’s crazy about it is being the first black man to — black person to win an Academy Award for directing is kind of crazy because there’s so many amazing directors that came before me. So, you know, Academy is a little behind.

MARTIN: Do you remember what it felt like when they called your name or they called the name of your film? Do you remember that feeling? Can you take us back?

WILLIAMS: It’s the most terrifying, scary out of body feeling. So, when they called my name, I literally was out of body. But I remember running down the aisle and high fiving people as I was taking the stage because I was seeing, you know, friends and fellow nominees who you’d spent so much time with. And I was high fiving until I took the stage. So, yes, it’s nothing. And then you — the spot — I remember seeing Meryl Streep. I remember looking down in the first row and seeing Meryl Streep. And I was like, oh, my God, Meryl Streep is watching.

MARTIN: On the one hand, as you pointed out, it was an historic moment. I mean, you’re the first African American found person to win for an Academy Award for directing. And then, for people who don’t remember, this was for your short “Music by Prudence.” This is in 2009. And it was also weirdly a precursor to subsequent disruptions of the Academy Award ceremony when your acceptance speech was interrupted by one of the producers of the film who stormed onto the stage and it disrupted your speech.

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WILLIAMS: I never imagined my wildest dreams that I’d end up here. This is so exciting. This is so exciting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

WILLIAMS: This is so exciting. It’s so exciting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isn’t just the classic thing.

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MARTIN: Did it mar the moment for you?

WILLIAMS: It did. It did. It — you know, at the time, it was really upsetting. And you know, I feel like it was like Karenism before Karenism became Karen — Karenism. But it was really upsetting. But in the long run, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Because everyone knew — remembered that moment. And I, you know, was the biggest story in the news the next day, which didn’t seem great. But then later, everyone just knew who I was, and it really put me on the map, because when the short documentary category is going, you know, people go for their nachos or whatever, they don’t pay attention, but they paid attention.

MARTIN: Documentary shorts are often the kind of the gateway to the other opportunities didn’t work that way for you, though. I mean, I think a lot of people have this kind of notion. You win an Academy Award, you get that statue and then, you know, the door is open.

WILLIAMS: No, it was, you know, a different time in Hollywood. No one called. I got not one phone call. No agents called. I got no job offers. I was sleeping on my friend, Geoff Martz, who’s my business partner now, sleeping on his couch. I had nothing, no money, no opportunities.

MARTIN: Why do you think it is that just nothing changed?

WILLIAMS: Because people who look like me don’t get those kinds of opportunities because the people who are making those decisions don’t look like me. So, they’re hiring — you know, there weren’t a lot of opportunities for African American gay men to create content. No one was interested in what we had to say in Hollywood, and so, they weren’t calling, you know. And you know, obviously that is changing. You know, and I’m trying to change that now, you know. What’s crazy is that, flash forward, 10 years later, I become one of the people actually leading the academy, you know, that’s run by a board of governors. I was elected as the head of the documentary branch. You’re elected to that position. And I’m like, wait a minute, oh, my God. Now, I’m in the leadership position. I was only the second — maybe second or third, African American elected to the board after the legendary Cheryl Boone Isaacs. And I went in that room and there it is, Spielberg, Tom Hanks, all the most powerful people in Hollywood that sit on that board. And I was like, I could — and I was intimidated. I’m not going to lie, but I could break down the barriers, break down the doors for others. So, I was like, I’m going to, you know, kick over the table. I’m going to change my branch. I’m going to invite people like me to have — in leadership positions in the documentary branch, and the documentary branch is now the most diverse branch in the whole academy.

MARTIN: To have such a signature achievement and then to basically have the phone go silent the next day, I mean, how did you hang in there all these years?

WILLIAMS: I think it’s because I have a passion for storytelling and I had things I wanted to say, whether anyone wanted to buy it or hear it. And — you know, and going on after that I struggled and made my first feature film, and I did it through grants and through organizations like the Ford Foundation, who would give grants to filmmakers like me and public television, you know, who gave me the money to go make “God Loves Uganda” about the anti-homosexuality bill in Uganda, which 10 years later has just passed. You know, but I went to Uganda because I wanted to explore this really dark place where American evangelicals were going to Uganda, and they were, you know, doing things they couldn’t get passed in America in Uganda, in a country where they were taking money and resources so they had power. So, I was — when I made that film and it took me years and I struggled through grants and I was determined because I was determined to tell that story, to tell the stories that are personal to me.

MARTIN: So, fast forward to now, you are having this incredible moment. You have not one, not two, but three different projects all premiering this fall, and what’s remarkable is they are all different. So, let’s talk about that. I mean, there’s “Cassandro,” which is your first narrative feature.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: “Cassandro.”

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MARTIN: It’s a fictionalized account of the life of a real person who is an openly gay professional — Mexican professional wrestler. It’s bilingual. It stars Gael Garcia Bernal. You’ve got your “Stamped,” which is based on Ibram X. Kendi’s bestseller of the same name. And you’ve got a film about “The Super Models,” the four, the famous four. I’m looking at them sort of superficially. I’m thinking they’re all different, but are they like? Is there something that unites them?

WILLIAMS: They’re all me. You know, I tell stories that are really personal to me and, you know, the story of “Cassandro,” of a really openly gay — proud gay man who goes into the macho world of Lucha Libre Mexican wrestling and achieves great success and fame on his own terms as himself, as who he is, it’s really a story, a journey of self-acceptance, it’s a journey that I took as a gay man. So, I really wanted to tell that story because I was moved because it was like — it was my story, it’s a story of a lot of people from the LGBTQ plus community. So, that was really important. “The Super Models” was, you know, I grew up with the super models. I — it was the — you know, I was coming of age. I was in New York, you know, going out to nightclubs. And I knew these women and these women where that was a defining time in culture when music and art and fashion is all coming together and Hollywood all coming together, they were the original influencers, you know. And so, that was really part of my — you know, my story as well.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We only have one black girl this season. It was that time. Black girls can only do shows in the summer. Black girls can only wear the bright colored clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said to them, if you don’t book her, you don’t get me.

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WILLIAMS: And with “Stamped,” it’s really about me struggling to really understand my place in America as a black man. You know, why is everything that’s going on in this country from the racial reckoning that we’ve all experienced that is now seems to be like, you know, forgotten to the daily destruction of black bodies, all of that, I’m trying — I’m grappling with that, like, when I step out my door I’m in danger. I could be shot down. I could be, you know, killed at any moment by the police or anyone else who deems me not worthy or equal to them. And I just wanted to understand that, and Ibram X. Kendi’s book did that for me. And I was like, I’m going to make a film about this. So, it’s all personal.

MARTIN: It’s so interesting that I wonder in a way that this is kind of the universe making up for the fact that your phone didn’t ring all those years ago, and then now, all of a sudden, I’m thinking it doesn’t stop ringing, you know?

WILLIAMS: Yes. You know —

MARTIN: It’s so strange.

WILLIAMS: — it doesn’t stop ringing. And I — you know, the great thing about it is that I got to create a company, a production company called One Story Up and I got to invite creators, black creators, BIPOC creators, who don’t — still don’t have the opportunities that they should have into really vouch for them with buyers, with the big streamers and get them to create their work, get them — you know, give them a platform for their work. And it’s paid off. It’s so rewarding to do, to be able to do that and to be able to be in a position to do that. So, not only is it paying off for me, it’s paying off for all the people, all the little Rogers that, you know, don’t have the opportunities that I now have.

MARTIN: You can’t help but notice that these — all these three pieces arise at a particular moment in our history where some of the groups that you focus on, there’s been sort of tremendous resistance, backlash, if you want to call it that, against what they have to say. I mean, there’s a concerted effort in some jurisdictions to, for example, disallow Ibram X. Kendi’s book from being taught or even appearing on library shelves. You can’t help but notice that in some jurisdictions that there is a sort of a concerted and organized attempt to disappear the stories of queer people, trans people from sort of public life, especially from exposure to kids. Obviously, all these projects took you years to develop and to bring into production, but it is sort of interesting that they’re all arriving now in this particular moment. I just wonder if you draw anything from that.

WILLIAMS: I think we’re in a very critical place in America. You know, it’s so divided. And, you know, when, when someone like Ibram X. Kendi, who is really a historian, who is really an academic, a brilliant academic, has to wear a bulletproof vest to go out in public because his life is in danger, his books are banned, where — what — that says so much about this country. And, you know, and I think, you know, for me, understanding that the fact that this country hasn’t really grappled with the legacy of slavery, it’s why I did — I also did “The 1619 Project” with Nicole Hannah Jones series, you know, that’s why I’ve been exploring that because, you know, for me, a platform like Netflix, which is so widely watched and is so widely viewed throughout the world, I’m trying to educate people really about what — you know, what are the origins of this? Where did this come from? They can understand it. So we can begin to have conversations around this. And that’s really — even with, “Cassandro,” you know, where being, you know, dragged — you’re — there are — it’s being outlawed to be dragged, I wanted to make a film about someone who dresses in drag in a macho world of, Lucha Libre wrestling and does it on his own terms and is proud and out about it. And I think that America needs to see these kinds of films. Really, you know, that’s why I’m — that’s my motivation for making all of them.

MARTIN: Well, how did — what — can I just go to “Cassandro” for a second? How on earth did — how did you get connected to this project? Because one might superficially think this is outside your experience. I mean, from what I understand, I don’t think you’re bilingual. I don’t think you’re Mexican American. I don’t think this is not something that you kind of grew up with. So, how did you get connected to this project?

WILLIAMS: Well, it was a “New Yorker” article, and the “New Yorker” did a series on Amazon, called “The New Yorker Presents,” which was turns the magazine into art. So, I did a short 15-minute documentary about “Cassandro” for “The New Yorker” series. And I — when I met Cassandro, who lives in El Paso Juarez and goes back and forth, you know, his family’s half in El Paso, half in Juarez on the border, I was completely blown away by his story of resilience, his story of — like, his journey of self-acceptance. You know, the fact that he’s an effeminate out gay man wrestling in drag, and that the first time I saw him wrestle in Juarez in the stadium, he walks into the stadium with his theme song, “I Will Survive,” playing and everyone is singing, I will survive. And these macho men are hugging him and people are handing him their babies and kissing him. I started to cry. I was like, this is about breaking down those barriers. This shows, to me — it shows that we’re not so divided. That if people can love him and he can become a big superstar in this world, and he can be accepted and loved, I was like, this is a really inspirational story. And I want to tell positive, inspirational stories about the — about people in the gay community because there’s so many depressing and sad stories.

MARTIN: Well, you know, to that end, not to detract from anything you just said, but there are that path to acceptance was not a smooth, straight line, you know, as it were. There are some scenes there to hear him being yelled at and having people yelling slurs, gay — anti-gay slurs at him. I just found it — I found it painful.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MARTIN: I just — do you mind if I ask, like, what was it like to film those scenes?

WILLIAMS: Well, the wonderful thing about Cassandro is that he took those slurs and almost used it as his superpower. I see it as a superpower hero narrative where he took those slurs and he used it and he made — they made him stronger in the ring. They made him — he’s like, I’m not going to let it defeat me. I’m going to let it, you know, energize me. And he was good as a wrestler. He was — his moves, everything he did was so good. And he got stronger. And that confidence that — he used it to build his confidence in the ring. And the audience, then that confidence becomes infectious. And then infects the audience and he wins over the audience. I just found that fascinating. You know, I had never seen anything like that. And so, many of us in the gay community, when someone uses a slur against us, we’re defeated. We shrink down. We want to run away and hide. He ran right into the fire, so to speak, and said, I am who I am, literally, and I’m proud and I’m going to do this and you’re going to love me. And they fell in love with him.

MARTIN: So, before we let you go, what’s next? What else you got?

WILLIAMS: A lot. It’s coming. You know, now, people are actually calling me. And I’m — and, you know, what — for me, what is really important is building my company and allowing these young BIPOC filmmakers to tell their stories, giving them, you know, a license to tell their stories, giving them the opportunities to tell their stories. That’s really important, is like, opening the door, you know, because it’s still a struggle. The struggle is not over. And I’m going to continue to create work that I think is really important, that I think informs and inspires people all across the world. And I love what I do. So, I’m going to keep doing it.

MARTIN: Roger Ross Williams, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. It’s great to speak to you, Michel.