The Unseen Faces of Jan. 6

>>> TOMORROW MARKS THREE YEARS SINCE A MOB OF AMERICANS STORMED THE CAPITOL.

YET THE DARK SHADOW OF JANUARY 6th CONTINUES TO HANG OVER THE FATE OF THE U.S. DEMOCRACY.

ACCORDING TO A "WASHINGTON POST" UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND POLL, REPUBLICANS ARE MORE SYMPATHETIC TO THE RIOTERS AND MORE LOYAL TO DONALD TRUMP THAN THEY WERE IN 2021.

WHILE OVER A THIRD OF ALL AMERICANS NOW BELIEVE BIDEN'S ELECTION WAS ILLEGITIMATE.

ROBERT PAPE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHY POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS MOVED FROM THE MARGINS TO THE MAIN STREAM.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS SINCE THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.

YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT USING VIOLENCE AS A POLITICAL WEAPON.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN FINDING?

>> WE'VE BEEN FINDING QUITE A BIT THROUGH DETAILED STUDIES OF EVERY PERSON THAT HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR OFFENSES RELATED TO JANUARY 6th.

AND THEN ALSO, FOLLOWING UP THOSE STUDIES WITH DETAILED NATIONAL SURVEYS OF POLITICAL VIOLENT SENTIMENTS IN THE NATIONAL POPULATION.

THE BIG FINDING, WALTER, IS THAT THIS GOES WAY BEYOND, SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE GOES WAY BEYOND OATH KEEPERS AND PROUD BOYS.

WHAT WE ARE NOW SEEING ARE MAINSTREAM AMERICANS, AND EVEN AFFLUENT AMERICANS, PEOPLE WITH SOMETHING TO LOSE, WILLING TO SUPPORT VIOLENCE FOR THEIR POLITICAL GOALS.

AND THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR OUR SOCIETY TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

IT IS DIFFICULT FOR OUR POLITICIANS TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

DIFFICULT FOR THE MEDIA TO COME TO GRIPS WITH.

IT IS THE REALITY THAT WE FACE, AND THAT WE FACED ON JANUARY 6th.

>> WHAT'S CAUSING THIS IN PEOPLE?

>> THERE IS A DIFFERENT CAUSES PROBABLY ON THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT.

SO WE'VE BEEN STUDYING NOT JUST SIMPLY SUPPORT FOR TRUMP.

THAT HAS BEEN OUR MAIN FOCUS.

ALSO ISSUES RELATED TO THE LEFT.

LET ME FOCUS ON THE MAIN THREAT WE FACE, WHICH IS THE MAIN THREAT WE FACE IS REALLY COMING FROM THE RIGHT.

WHY IS THAT THE CASE?

IN ORDER TO GET SERIOUS POLITICAL VIOLENCE, EITHER STRINGS OF LONE WOLF TERRORISM OR MASS VIOLENT COLLECTIVE INSTANCES LIKE WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th, YOU NEED A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

YOU NEED NOT JUST A LARGE AMOUNT OF VIOLENT SENTIMENTS IN THE MAIN STREAM OF THE PUBLIC, BUT POLITICAL FIGURES WILLING TO ACTIVATE THOSE SENTIMENTS.

WILLING THE EGG THEM ON.

THIS IS WHY DONALD TRUMP IS A DANGEROUS AND UNIQUELY DANGEROUS THREAT.

WHAT HE'S DEMONSTRATED ON JANUARY 6th AND EVEN AFTER IS BOTH THE CAPACITY AND WILLINGNESS TO INSPIRE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE TO USE VIOLENCE FOR HIS POLITICAL OBJECTIVES.

SO THAT IS REALLY THE DANGER FROM THE RIGHT.

NOW, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?

OUR STUDIES SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A SERIOUS BELIEF AND FEAR THAT THERE IS A DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY THAT IS HAPPENING MALICIOUSLY.

IT IS NOT JUST HAPPENING BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

MANY FIGURES ON THE RIGHT ARE TOUTING WHAT IS CALLED THE GREAT REPLACEMENT.

THIS IDEA THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS CLIDELIBERATELY AND MALICIOUSLY DECIDING TO CHANGE THE COMPOSITION OF THE ELECTORATE NOT OVER 40 OR 50 YEARS BUT IN THE NEAR TERM TO FUNDAMENTALLY SHIFT THE NATURE OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

YOU SEE THIS WITH DONALD TRUMP'S RHETORIC.

THESE ARE JUST TO NAME A FEW OF THE MANY, MANY INDIVIDUALS.

BOTH IN THE MEDIA AND POLITICAL FIGURES WHO ARE MAKING THIS ARGUMENT AND CAUSING PEOPLE TO BE VERY FEARFUL OF IMMIGRANTS AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE IN GENERAL.

IF YOU COMBINE THAT, FEAR WITH THE BELIEF THAT THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED, THAT YOU CAN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM THROUGH NORMAL PRIT CONSTITUTIONAL MEANS, NOW YOU HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR SERIOUS VIOLENCE AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING.

>> YOU SAY IT IS MAINLY ON THE RIGHT.

I SAW IN YOUR SURVEYS THAT 9%, WHICH IS A HIGHER NUMBER THAN ON THE RIGHT, 9% OF THE LEFT FEELS IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO USE VIOLENCE TO KEEP TRUMP FROM BEING PRESIDENT.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, WALTER.

WHAT WE'VE GOT IS NOT ONLY FOCUSED ON ONE SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WE WANT A 360 VIEW OF WHAT IS IN FRONT OF US.

WHAT WE SEE ON THE LEFT ARE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE MAIN STREAM WHO ARE, WOULD BE WILLING TO SUPPORT POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

AS YOU SAY, THE NUMBERS ARE SLIGHTLY HIGHER IN TERMS OF RAW NUMBERS ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS ON THE LEFT, THE MAIN LEADER OF THE LEFT, JOE BIDEN, HAS BEEN THE OPPOSITE OF DONALD TRUMP.

RATHER THAN POUR GASOLINE ON A FIRE WITH POLITICAL RHETORIC, TRYING TO STIMULATE VIOLENCE OR JUSTIFY POLITICAL VIOLENCE, WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IS EVEN FOR THOSE ON THE LEFT, HE'S BEEN TRYING TO TAMP DOWN THE MOVEMENT TOWARD POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND KEEP THAT ANGER VECTORED INTO POLITICS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS ON THE LEFT, YOU COULD END UP HAVING A POPULIST LEFT WING LEADER EMERGE WHO ATTEMPTS INTO THAT URGE FOR VIOLENCE?

>> YES, I'M SORRY TO SAY, THERE IS THAT POTENTIAL ON THE LEFT.

THIS POPULIST VIOLENT, I CALL IT VIOLENT POPULISM, WALTER, IS A COMBINATION OF TWO INGREDIENTS.

ONE IS MASS SENTIMENTS FOR VIOLENCE IN THE MAIN STREAM.

THE BODY POLITIC.

THE SECOND IS LEADERS WILLING TO STIMULATE AND TRIGGER THAT VIOLENCE.

ON THE RIGHT, WE HAVE BOTH OF THOSE INGREDIENTS.

THAT'S WHAT IS MAKING IT SO DANGEROUS ON THE RIGHT.

AND WHY WE SEE SOCIAL MEDIA INSTANCES OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

EVEN AGAINST CONGRESS.

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, WHICH TO REALLY ORIENT AROUND THEIR SUPPORT FOR DONALD TRUMP.

PEOPLE ON THE LEFT ARE RECEIVING VIOLENT THREATS AND THOSE ON THE LEFT ARE BEING THREATENED AS MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

WE'RE NOT SEEING IT TO THE SAME DEGREE ON THE LEFT.

WHY IS THAT?

IT'S NOT BECAUSE THERE'S NOT VIOLENT SENTIMENTS.

THERE'S ACTUALLY QUITE A BIT OF VIOLENT SENTIMENTS ON THE LEFT.

TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP OR ABORTION RIGHTS.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING, POLITICAL FIGURES ON THE LEFT ARE MAKE ITTING ACTIVE EFFORTS.

JOE BIDEN'S SPEECHES ON ROE V. WADE ARE A KEY EXAMPLE OF THIS.

ON JUNE 22nd, 2022.

THAT'S WHEN THE SUPREME COURT OVERTHREW ROE V. WADE.

THAT FRIDAY.

JOE BIDEN EARLY THAT MORNING GAVE A LONG PEACH.

HE WAS VERY OPPOSED TO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DID.

BUT HE HAS A BIG FAT PARAGRAPH IN THAT SPEECH.

NOT SIMPLY A ONE-LINER THAT SAYS DIRECTLY THAT THE LEFT, HIS CONSTITUENTS SHOULD NOT ACT OUT VIOLENTLY.

AND HE SAYS IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT WHY THIS WOULD BE WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS.

INSTEAD, SHOULD VECTOR THAT VIOLENCE TOWARD THE BALLOT BOX.

>> A WHOLE LOT OF INDICTMENTS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

DO THOSE INDICTMENTS END UP INCREASING THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF VIOLENCE TO KEEP, TO RESTORE HIM?

OR DOES IT TAMP DOWN THE SENTIMENT?

>> YEAH.

THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP ARE INCREASING NOT JUST VOTE FOR TRUMP BUT RADICAL VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP.

AND WE SEE THIS VERY CLEARLY IN OUR SURVEYS.

OUR NATIONAL SURVEYS, WE DO THEM EVERY QUARTER.

WHAT YOU CAN SEE IS YOU CAN SEE OVER TIME, A CLEAR SPIKE UP WITH THE RADICAL VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP, WITH THE FEDERAL INDICTMENTS FOR TRUMP.

AND THIS IS REALLY QUITE WORRISOME.

BECAUSE THAT'S THE COMPONENT, THAT RADICAL SUPPORT FOR TRUMP, WHICH IS ENCOURAGING THE VIOLENCE.

AND THAT'S WHAT IS UNDERNEATH THOSE CONTINUING WAVES OF VIOLENT THREATS.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST JOE BIDEN.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST OBAMA.

VIOLENT THREATS AGAINST THE PROSECUTORS.

IN THE LAST OF FEW DAYS, WE'VE HAD A WHOLE STRING OF THREATS AGAINST STATE HOUSES.

THAT'S COMING FROM THAT VIOLENT SUPPORT FOR TRUMP WHICH IS GROWING.

SEPARATELY FROM VOTE FOR TRUMP.

AND THAT IS ENCOURAGING THE VIOLENCE AND THAT IS WHAT COULD GO, COULD BECOME EVEN MORE EXTREME AS WE GO THROUGH THE EVENTS OF 2024.

>> BACK TO JANUARY 6th AND THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL THERE, YOU TAKE SOME ISSUE ABOUT THE WAY PE PEOPLE, THE OATH KEEPERS AND THE PROUD BOYS.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WE'VE LEARNED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT IN THE LAST THREE YEARS ABOUT WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

ON JANUARY 6th, IF YOU LOOK AT THE IMAGES, WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS, PROBABLY THOUSANDS STORMING THE CAPITOL.

BUT THE MEDIA, AND MANY OTHERS, TENDED TO FOCUS ON A HANDFUL OF EXAMPLES.

THEY TENDED TO FOCUS ON THE IMAGE OF THE SHAMAN, FOR EXAMPLE.

THAT WAS A VERY VIVID IMAGE WE WILL ALL REMEMBER.

THEY TENDED TO FOCUS ON THE IMAGE OF AN OATH KEEPER, SOMEONE IN MILITARY GARB, FOR INSTANCE.

THAT'S VERY EASY TO FOCUS ON.

THAT VERY QUICKLY BECAME THAT THIS WAS TRUMP PLUS A HANDFUL OF NUTS HERE.

WELL, NOW THAT WE'VE STUDIED THE OVER 1,000 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED, WHAT WE SEE IS FULLY HALF ARE DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ARCHITECTS.

THEY ARE BUSINESS OWNERS.

THEY ARE CEOs, THEY ARE EXECUTIVES FROM INTEL.

THIS IS REALLY STUNNING.

ALL THE YEARS I'VE BEEN PROFILING INDIVIDUALS, I'VE NEVER HAD TO HAVE A CATEGORY CALLED BUSINESS OWNER.

YES, WE'VE HAD A FEW ODD EXAMPLES OF THE WHITE COLLAR.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S FULLY HALF OF THE INDIVIDUALS WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

AND THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE THAT SIMPLY WALKING THROUGH THIS KIND OF NONVIOLENT TRESPASS.

WHAT WE HAVE IN OUR DOCUMENTED STUDIES, CHICAGO PRIME TIME SECURITY AND THREATS, ARE IMAGE AFTER IMAGE OF A GYNECOLOGIST DOCTOR, THE FEMALE DOCTOR FROM BOSTON THAT WORKS AT A VERY FAMOUS BOSTON HOSPITAL DURING THE DAY.

WHAT IS SHE DOING?

SLUGGING IT OUT WITH POLICE IN THE ROTUNDA.

WE SEE THIS IN THE POLICE BODY CAM FILM.

WE HAVE INTEL COURT SLUGGING IT OUT WITH POLICE.

TAKING THEIR BATONS AND BASHING THEM OVER THE HEAD.

WE HAVE PICTURE AFTER PICTURE AFTER PICTURE.

SO I DON'T SIMPLY MEAN THESE MAIN STREAM AND AFFLUENT FOLKS WERE KIND OF SAUNTERING THROUGH THE CAPITOL OR BEING ESCORTED BY POLICE.

ONE GENTLEMAN, PERSON, WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE CHRISTMAS PARTY IN DECEMBER 2018.

THERE'S A PICTURE OF HIM WITH VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND LAURA TRUMP.

IT TAKES FIVE COPS TO HOLD THEM DOWN HE'S FIGHTING THEM SO HARD.

AND HE'S SAYING, SHOOT ME, SHOOT ME.

THIS IS EXTREMELY VIOLENT BEHAVIOR FROM WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BE MAIN STREAM, EVEN AFFLUENT INDIVIDUALS.

AND THIS IS THE STORY LINE THAT HAS BEEN BASICALLY MISSED AND I THINK IT IS BECAUSE, WHAT HAPPENED HERE IS QUITE UNDERSTANDABLY, THE MEDIA WANTED TO FOCUS ON SOME KEY EXAMPLES.

THEY'RE OFTEN LOOKING ON THE TELLING EXAMPLE TO CREATE THE NARRATIVE AND THE BASIC MEDIA HAS BEEN PROUD BOYS OATH KEEPERS.

AND OF COURSE, THAT MAKES IT VERY EASY.

THE FBI IS BUILT FOR ORGANIZATIONS TO PUT DOWN ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE PROUD BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS.

THEY WERE BUILT TO TAKE DOWN ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THAT.

SO THAT MAKES IT VERY EASY TO FOCUS ON THESE GROUPS.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HOLE, IT'S A MUCH MORE DISTURBING PICTURE.

THE 90% OF WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL THAT THE PUBLIC REALLY HASN'T SEEN ARE MORE DISTURBING THAN THE 10% WE HAVE FOCUSED ON.

>> SO THOSE 90%, THE BUSINESS LEADERS AND DOCTORS, WHAT RADICALIZED THEM?

>> WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO POUR THROUGH ALL THE COURT DOCUMENTS FROM INDICTMENT TO SENTENCING FOR EACH OF THOSE OVER 1,000 PEOPLE.

IN MANY CASES, THERE ARE HUNDRED OF COURT DOCUMENTS RELATED TO EACH INDIVIDUAL.

AND WE CAN GO THROUGH ALL THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS, THE OTHER STORIES IN LOCAL PAPERS.

WHAT YOU SEE IS THEY GAVE STATEMENTS.

MANY WERE PROUD OF WHAT THEY DID.

THEY WEREN'T HIDING.

THEY WERE TRUE BELIEVERS.

WHAT WERE THEY BELIEVING IN?

THEY WERE BELIEVING IN DONALD TRUMP'S STATEMENTS THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND NUMBER TWO, THAT THEY'RE DOING THIS TO SAVE DEMOCRACY.

SO IN THEIR VIEW, AND THIS VIEW IS COMING NOT JUST FROM THE MEDIA IN GENERAL AND ALEX JONES.

IT'S COMING FROM STATEMENTS FROM TRUMP.

MANY OF THEM ARE SAYING, I'M HERE BECAUSE TRUMP CALLED US HERE.

I'M HERE BECAUSE TRUMP TOLD US TO STOP THE STEAL.

THEY'RE EXPRESSING IT DIRECTLY IN TERMS OF TRUMP TOLD THEM TO.

WELL, HE IS THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHEN HE MAKES THESE STATEMENTS, WALTER, HE'S NOT SIMPLY HAS AN AUDIENCE OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

HE HAS THE AUTHORITY THAT COMES WITH THAT MANTLE.

AND FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE, HE IS STILL THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO THAT'S WHY, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

IT WOULD TAKE MORE OF AN ORCHESTRATED EFFORT.

BUT THAT'S ALSO WHY, WALTER, IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE.

WE'VE LEARNED A LOT IN THE THREE YEARS SINCE JANUARY 6th.

AND IT CHANGES THE NARRATIVE THAT WE HAVE ABOUT 90 DEGREES.

IT IS NOT 100% WRONG.

IT'S JUST OFTEN NOT THAT WE'RE MISSING THE CORE ELEMENTS OF THE REAL DANGERS TO DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED TRUMP SO MANY TIMES IN THIS DISCUSSION SO FAR.

IF TRUMP WERE NOT AROUND, WOULD THIS PHENOMENON DISAPPEAR?

>> WELL, TRUMP CLEARLY LAB THE LEADER OF THIS INSURRECTIONIST MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT IS FAIR TO CALL IT AN INSURRECTIONIST MOVEMENT.

THIS MOVEMENT IS WILLING.

AND TRUMP HAS THAT, TO DEPART EVEN FROM THE PRINCIPLES OF THE CONSTITUTION TO ACHIEVE THEIR POLITICAL GOALS.

HE'S CLEARLY BEEN THE LEADER.

THERE HAVE BEEN A GROWING NUMBER OF MINI TRUMPS AND SO FORTH WHO ARE COMING RIGHT OUT OF THE TRUMP PLAY BOOK.

THIS HAPPENS IN OTHER SOCIETIES AND OTHER TERRORIST GROUPS.

I SPENT 30 YEARS STUDYING TERRORIST GROUPS AROUND THE WORLD AND VIOLENT SOCIETIES AROUND THE WORLD.

MANY PEOPLE THINK, IF THE LEADER WOULD JUST GO AWAY, THEN EVERYTHING WOULD BE FINE.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS WHEN THE LEADER GOES AWAY, IN THESE VIOLENT MOVEMENTS, TYPICALLY YOU GET A YOUNGER, MORE AGGRESSIVE GENERATION WHO GOT TO PROVE THEMSELVES.

THEY ARE TYPICALLY PROVING THEMSELVES THROUGH VIOLENCE.

SO I THINK THERE'S A HOPE BY MANY PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO WAIT OUT TRUMP AND, OR SOMEHOW TRUMP WILL DISAPPEAR FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS AND THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE SIMPLY FINE.

THAT'S PUTTING, I THINK THAT'S MISSING THE FOREST THROUGH A VERY BIG TREE OF TRUMP.

BUT I THINK IT IS MISSING THE GENERAL LAND SCAPE THAT WE'VE NOW MOVED INTO.

>> ROBERT PAPE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.