Ukraine Amb. on Stalled US Aid: “We Have Faith in..Congress”

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, INTERNATIONAL HOST: Well, turning now to the war in Ukraine. Russian missiles hit Kharkiv late Wednesday, destroying a hotel and injuring 11 people, amongst them Turkish journalists. It’s yet another reminder of the daily danger faced by Ukrainians as this war approaches two years. President Zelenskyy is continuing his tour of the Baltic nations in Estonia today, and once again reiterating his calls for Ukraine to be admitted to NATO. Whether or not they’ll get the support they need from the U.S. remains up in the air. Just look at this clash of opinions between Republican presidential candidates Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis at CNN’s debate last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Russia said, once they take Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics are next. Those are NATO countries, and that puts America at war. This is about preventing war.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It’s an open-ended commitment. They want another 108 billion. They will not tell you. When the — they have achieved their goal and this is going to go on maybe hundreds of billions more into the future. I think a lot of people have died. We need to find a way to end this because our priorities for national security, of course, the border, which we talked about, and people like Nikki Haley care more about Ukraine’s border than she does about our own southern border, which is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Oksana Markarova is Ukraine’s ambassador to the United Nations — the United States, and she sat down with Walter Isaacson to discuss this ongoing conflict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER ISAACSON, HOST: Thank you, Bianna. And Ambassador Markarova, welcome to the show.

OKSANA MARKAROVA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Thank you, Walter, for having us.

ISAACSON: There’s a brutal article in the Wall Street Journal about the trench warfare. And after months, how — maybe a mile or two is going back and forth, are we getting into a situation now with this trench warfare where it’s almost frozen in place and there’s got to be ways to break this deadlock?

MARKAROVA: Well, Walter, I wouldn’t call it frozen. It hasn’t been frozen since the war started, but also since 2014 when Russia attacked us in the first place. And the trench war has been there since the first day of this war. Russians not only started shelling us with all the missiles and drones, which we continue to see, but also attacked with a very large front. And to be able — frankly, to even keep this long front line, more than 800 miles, is already achievement beyond a number of militaries and Ukrainian military has been able not to lose anything. But, of course, without additional increase support, without the capabilities, it’s going to be difficult to advance. So, we can advance. It’s not frozen. We can win, but it all — a function of weapons at the moment. And the will to fight is there. It’s difficult. It’s muddy. It’s cold. It’s one of the coldest winters. But you know, if we can get a little bit more weapons, we can move forward.

ISAACSON: You say that it can’t advance with more — without more weapons, and if you get more weapons maybe you can move forward. President Zelenskyy’s in the Baltics right now, trying to both raise money and support there. What does he hope to get out of those three Baltic nations?

MARKAROVA: Well, President Zelenskyy have been very clear since the day one of this war and even before. We need all military capabilities. So, we needed them before the war to deter Russia from attacking and we need them now in order to be able to not only successfully defend Ukrainians, defend Ukraine, but also liberate our territories. The number one priority, as President Zelenskyy said, is air defense. We see how Russians are cooperating not only with Iranians, which is not news for anyone anymore, but with North Koreans and all these missiles that they are selling. There are all cities everywhere, residential areas, trying to scare people, trying to spread this virus of despair everywhere which they will not be able to do. But, you know, the air defense is critical. The artillery is critical. The long-range missiles are critical. Everything is critical. Look, we are fighting a much larger enemy. Look at the map. The country that is not only a nuclear power and member of the Security Council, but the country with much larger population, yes. Unmotivated population that has no idea what they are doing in Ukraine but still much larger, and also equipment and they’re getting help from their friends, the new axis of evil. So, you know, we just have to stay the course and we have to double down and we have to respond with more weapons and we can win.

ISAACSON: At the beginning of this war, we were hearing about crippling sanctions. It’s going to crush the Russian economy. This will do things. Russian economy has grown. Grown as much as some of European economy. What happened? How come we don’t have crippling sanctions?

MARKAROVA: Walter, we worked on sanctions, as you know, since early 2021 in order to prevent Russia from this attack. And sanctions were instrumental at the beginning months of the war. But, you know, first of all, these sanctions would cripple probably any democracy. But with autocratic country like Russia, you really have to implement them everywhere. And you have to you have to make sure that other countries which deem themselves neutral are not actually benefiting from the situation and trying to buy even more from Russia. So, for example, the Russian financial sector. Yes, there are dozens of banks, which were put on the U.S. full blocking sanctions list, but there are 330 banks in Russia. There is still a lot to go. Now, in a democratic country when you sanction the majority of the banks, the largest banks that will have an effect. But in an autocratic country where people in Kremlin can pick up the phone, call even a small bank and say, you are now servicing the Russian military, you have to sanction all of them. And we can go sector by sector and see how much more we still can do. So, that’s why this is one of the key areas on which we are working together with our American friends and allies. And I want to thank the Treasury and Department of Commerce on this work, but there is still so much more we can do together.

ISAACSON: You say that the war cannot really be pursued as strongly by Ukraine unless it has more support and much more weaponry. I read a report out of Estonia, it needed 200,000 artillery shells per month. I don’t know if you’ve seen that to work, which is more than the total capacity of the United States and the West. Do you worry that their supply chains are not going to be supportive?

MARKAROVA: Walter, we do not worry. We act. That’s why when President Zelenskyy came here in September, one of the biggest agreements of — between him and President Biden was to actually start actively working to have the co-production and to address this issue. And you are absolutely right. You know, we — all of us, democratic countries, we’re kind of preparing for — to defend ourselves, but not really preparing for this aggressive World War I type of trench wars and this this level of brutality. But it’s clear to us now that we have to do it. And Ukraine is already producing a lot of these drones and Ukraine is already producing a lot of capabilities ourselves, but together we will be able to address it even more. And plus, this is an important area for the future rebuilding of Ukraine, you know, because again, it’s difficult. The fight is not yet won completely. There is still a lot of hardship in front of us, but we are positive that we will win. And we already are thinking about how we will rebuild Ukraine after we win and defense production is going to be one of the key areas in which in addition to agri and innovation and I.T. and everything that Ukraine is known for where Ukraine can offer a lot to the world.

ISAACSON: The United States has been the major contributor, both in resources and weaponry. I assume there’s about — maybe a 50 percent chance, at least, that that aid gets cut off. What is Ukraine’s plan if that happens?

MARKAROVA: Well, first of all, let me say that we’re all very grateful to Americans, to American people, to President Biden, to Congress on a very strong bipartisan basis for all the support that we have received. And I have to tell you that I think it’s less than 50 percent chance that the aid will be cut off. I travel a lot in the U.S. now, and I feel the support of American people. They — the country which is based on freedom and bravery understand this fight more than anyone. And the country that realizes that when somebody attacks your home, when somebody attacks your loved ones, what can you do? You can only defend them. You can fight. It’s not even a matter of choice. So, I’m positive that American people support us. And you know, the discussions in Congress are very active and I understand there are a lot of internal issues. And of course, again, it’s normal in a democracy. But we have faith in in American people. And we also have faith in American Congress. So, you know, maybe later than we have expected or needed it, but we really hope that Congress will approve this support and that we will have the capabilities and the budget support to continue our efforts.

ISAACSON: Well, I applaud having faith in the American Congress and hope, but in some ways, there’s got to be other plans because whether it’s a 50 percent chance or a 20 percent chance, especially if Trump is reelected, and certainly if the Republicans hold Congress and even the U.S. State Department spokesman said, yes, we want to continue support, but not at the same levels as the past two years. So, how are you planning for that, a drawdown or cutoff of U.S. Military assistance?

MARKAROVA: Well, first of all, you know, if you look at the proposed support, which is being discussed. Actually, when the spokesman was talking about the decreased support — the budget support, it has been decreasing in — on a monthly basis since the beginning, and that was the plan actually. So, the defense security support is increasing but the budget support is decreasing because Ukraine is doing a lot in order to develop our own capabilities, in order to restore the economy. And we all hope that, you know, with more air defense and more people coming back and production picking up and co-production starting, of course, we don’t want to be dependent. We want to be self-sufficient. So, I wouldn’t take it as a negative thing per se, you know. We want to be able to actually fund ourselves and then get the security and other assistance from our partners. But you know, of course, we are working on — look at the beginning of this horrible invasion in March 2022, we could only depend at the beginning on ourselves. It took some time to get the support from our friends and allies. And if — let’s recall those first months when people were guessing how long we will be able to survive? Three days, one week, two weeks. And we didn’t — we surprised a lot of people in other countries, but we didn’t surprise ourselves. You know, this is something we fought for in — during the previous generations. This is something Ukraine voted in 1991. And we defended this choice every time Russia tried to take it away from us.

ISAACSON: You talked a moment ago about how you weren’t really prepared for being a World War I like trench warfare going on and on. And now we see things that are breaking that pattern, attacks by Russia in the western part of Ukraine, and also attacks by Ukraine. And the — do you think that there may be a new set of tactics, a shift, instead of just focusing on the trench front?

MARKAROVA: Well, it’s a bit old tactic for Russia. They just ran out of some missiles and now they got them from the North Korea. So, if you look at the beginning of this full-fledged phase of the war, that’s what they started with. They started with massive attack from North, south, and east, with all the troops. Remember, which one — which were marching and they got as close to Kyiv as the outskirts of Kyiv, actually, but they also started with massive missiles attacks. That’s how they have found that hierarchy of and Western Ukraine as well from the very beginning. Then they focused on destroying our energy infrastructure. So, they have been — but of course, you know, they continue to shell the civilian and residential areas everywhere. They completely destroyed Mariupol, not only by the ground forces, but also by the missiles. So, it’s not something new for them. And unfortunately, we have to admit, you know, they are war criminals. And there are no red lines. They will attack hospitals. And when we were able to get some people in these prisoner swaps or exchanges, we hear horrific stories. Horrific stories. And, you know, our Prosecutor General is investigating more than 100,000 cases, individual cases right now.

ISAACSON: So, you just talked about the prisoner swaps. How did those come about? How are those things negotiated? And is there some chance that that leads to broader talks?

MARKAROVA: I don’t know what you mean by broader talks. If you are referring to, you know, some ideas that resurface from time to time, that Russia might be ready for some of the discussions, you know. We clearly have to just listen to Mr. Putin and see the actions they are taking. Their intent did not change. They are brutally executing genocide in Ukraine. And if they want to stop it, it’s very easy. They can stop the war tomorrow, get out from Ukraine, and the war will stop.

ISAACSON: In “Bloomberg” and other reports, the group of seven nations, your own allies, keep talking about ways to maybe have peace talks. That makes it —

MARKAROVA: Oh, we are talking about President Zelenskyy’s peace formula, and we’re very serious about it. President Zelenskyy put it forward. And as you know, there are a number of meetings where on the level of advisers, which get together and discuss it and the number of countries which are joining, these talks are growing. And in addition to these formal meetings of the advisers and hopefully soon the summit or at the level of the leaders, which we’re working on, there are also daily talks between different countries. And we’re very clear, nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. But let’s not mix the real, sustainable, just — durable peace which President Zelenskyy has proposed and we are discussing based on the U.N. Charter, based on the decisions that the majority of countries already supported with the operational pause which Russia needs in order to get more missiles from their friends in North Korea and re-invade or attack or —

ISAACSON: Wait, wait. So, you’re saying that without a full-fledged peace, I know at Davos there will be discussions of it as well with some of these ministers, there can’t be a ceasefire or a truce while trying to pursue such a peace?

MARKAROVA: Oh, well, we tried that before, you know, in 2015. And Ukraine, even though the Minsk Accord were not particularly fair to us, but we did everything possible in order to find a diplomatic solution. And through — during eight years, and I remember because in my previous capacity as the minister of finance, I also worked on it a lot. We tried to do everything possible in order to restore our territorial integrity and sovereignty through diplomatic solutions. And what did Russia do? They just used that operational force to amass all the equipment that they were preparing in order to attack us again. So, unless and until Russia leaves its criminal intent to invade and attack a neighboring country and destroy us, they are not negotiating in a good faith. So, you know, it takes two to negotiate. But coming back to the prisoner swaps, you know, of course, that’s a separate line. And we are glad that we had already a dozen of these prisoner swaps. And the last swap, which came after five months of Russia literally blocking the — even the discussions on that was a big relief to those who were waiting for their loved ones home.

ISAACSON: And do you think the fact that that was a big relief after five months and the swap happened is some indication that there might be more of that in the future?

MARKAROVA: Well, we really hope that we can continue the discussions on the prisoners, and we really hope that with other countries that are helping us and with other organizations that we will be able, not only to locate the — our servicemen but also civilians. And most importantly, most difficult issue, is children.

ISAACSON: Tell me about the relocation of the children.

MARKAROVA: This is, frankly for me, not only as a Ukrainian and a diplomat, but as a mother, is difficult to understand how can anyone even engage in something like this? So, from the territories — occupied territories, the Russians have abducted so many children, not only those which were under state care, but also children that have lost their parents during the war or have been even separated with the parents during this. When Russia was organizing all this filtration camps, you know, like horrific notion that actually brings us back to the World War II and what Nazi were doing, you know. And not only they have taken them into Russia, not only they have changed their own legislation to have the speedy adoptions, but they are moving them everywhere in Russia and put it up for the adoptions. We were able to return just a handful, you know. We literally — hundreds of Ukrainian kids. It’s a bit easier with teenagers, who at least can, you know, contact and they know and they understand what’s going on. But just imagine infants if they — if the infants are stolen. So, right now, it’s a big problem because we don’t even know the exact number until we liberate all Ukraine of how many kids are taken and stolen by Russians. We have identified at least 20,000 on which the Ukrainian ombudsman and our law enforcement is working. We know where they are, but this is a horrible tragedy. And again, this is one of Putin and his clique committed a number of war crimes. But this is the one for which he already is indicted as the war criminal.

ISAACSON: Madam Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us.

MARKAROVA: Thank you, Walter. Thank you very much for spreading information about it, because truth is our biggest weapon.