February 5, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AT THE FRONT LINES, AMID PLANS TO REBOOT UKRAINE'S MILITARY STRATEGY.

A REPORT ON THE LITTLE-KNOWN SUCCESSES.

AND I SPOKE TO FINLAND'S PRESIDENTIAL FRONT-RUNNER ALEXANDER STUBB, MAINTAINING A DELICATE BALANCE AS NATO'S NEWEST MEMBER.

>>> THEN -- >> THIS IS NOT ABOUT A CAMPING TRIP.

THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT PUSHING HUMANITY INTO THE SOLAR SYSTEM.

>> NASA DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR PAM MELROY ON THE GROWING FRONTIERS IN SPACE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> BLACK PEOPLE, WE ARE OFTEN, OUR CONCERNS ARE DISMISSED, IGNORED, OR MINIMIZED.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT LEAD TO VERY, VERY HORRIFIC CONSEQUENCES.

>> DR. UCHE BLACKSTOCK TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HER FIGHT AGAINST RACISM IN MEDICINE.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE U.S. SENATE HAS FINALLY UNVEILED A BILL TYING TOGETHER BORDER SECURITY AND SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.

THE PACKAGE WOULD TRANSFORM IMMIGRATION LAW AND GIVE SOME $60 BILLION WORTH OF MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE.

A MUCH-NEEDED BOOST FOR THE BELEAGUERED NATION THAT'S MIRED IN A TWO-YEAR EFFORT TO FEND OFF RUSSIA.

BUT THE BILL HAS A TOUGH ROAD AHEAD STILL, ESPECIALLY IN THE HOUSE, WHERE IT'S ALREADY BEEN DECLARED, QUOTE, DEAD ON ARRIVAL.

UNDER PRESSURE FROM FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

MEANTIME, UNCERTAINTY WITHIN UKRAINE, TOO, AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TELLS ITALIAN MEDIA A RESET IS NEEDED TO SHAKE UP THE COUNTRY'S WAR EFFORT.

BUT DESPITE BEING BOGGED DOWN ON THE EASTERN FRONT, THERE IS PROGRESS IN THE SOUTH.

KYIV HAS SUCCESSFULLY USED DRONES AND OTHER TECHNOLOGY TO OUTMANEUVER RUSSIA IN THE BLACK SEA.

AS FRED PLEITGEN REPORTS FROM THE MAIN PORT CITY OF ODESA.

>> Reporter: IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST BRAZEN AND MOST SUCCESSFUL OPERATIONS BY UKRAINE'S MILITARY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE.

SEA DRONES ATTACKING AND THE UKRAINIANS SAY SINKING A RUSSIAN WARSHIP INSIDE OCCUPIED CRIMEA.

AND HE WAS ONE OF THOSE INVOLVED.

HIS CALL SIGN IS 13, FROM THE ELITE SEA DRONE UNIT NAMED GROUP 13.

SO SECRETIVE, WE HAD TO HIDE HIS FACE AND CHANGE HIS VOICE.

"WE USED TEN DRONES IN THE OPERATION," HE SAID.

"SIX OF THEM HIT."

CNN CANNOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THAT THE SHIP WAS SUNK, BUT VIDEO PROVIDED BY THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY SEEMS TO SHOW THE MANY SEA DRONES EVADING MACHINE GUN FIRE FROM THE WARSHIP AND THEN MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS.

"THEIR WEAPONS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH SUCH SMALL SEA DRONES," 13 SAYS, "IN MOST CASES, THEY USE ANTI-SHIP GUNS."

UKRAINE BARELY HAS A FUNCTIONING NAVY, BUT THE DRONES PACK A MASSIVE PUNCH.

AROUND 500 POUNDS OF EXPLOSIVES.

THESE SEA DRONES MIGHT NOT LOOK LIKE MUCH AND MIGHT NOT GO VERY FAST, BUT THE UKRAINIANS SAY THEY'VE BEEN EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT ATTACKING RUSSIA'S BLACK SEA FLEET AND EVEN SINKING WARSHIPS.

"THE MAIN THING IS TO FEEL THE DRONE," 13 SAYS, "NOT EVERYONE CAN HOLD A FIRM GRIP.

IF YOU SQUEEZE A LITTLE, YOU CAN LOSE CONTROL OF THE DRONE.

I WOULD SAY IT'S LIKE WORKING WITH JEWELRY."

ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE, AND THE UKRAINIANS, OUTMANNED AND OUTGUNNED, SAY THEY NEED TO DO A LOT MORE OF IT.

AFTER VISITING THE SOUTHERN FRONT THIS WEEKEND, UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TELLING ITALIAN MEDIA HE NOT ONLY PLANS TO FIRE HIS TOP GENERAL, THERE COULD BE A LARGER GOVERNMENT SHAKEUP.

A FRONT-RUNNER TO BECOME THE NEW COMMANDER IN CHIEF, THE DEFENSE INTEL BOSS KNOWN FOR BRAZEN ATTACKS AGAINST RUSSIAN MILITARY AND INFRASTRUCTURE TARGETS.

"THE RUSSIANS ARE WAKING UP AT NIGHT TO EXPLOSIONS," HE SAYS.

"EXPLOSIONS IN THE AIR, EXPLOSIONS DIRECT LIP AT THE FACILITIES, THEY SEE THE REAL PICTURE OF WAR.

THEY SEE BURNING OIL DEPOTS, FACTORIES AND SO ON.

THIS IS ALL BENEFICIAL."

AND THE UKRAINIANS VOW TO CONTINUE HUNTING RUSSIAN MILITARY VESSELS IN THE BATTLE OF DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH ON THE HIGH SEAS.

>> FRED PLEITGEN REPORTING THERE FROM SOUTHERN UKRAINE.

>>> WELL, ONE COUNTRY WATCHING ALL THIS WITH LASER FOE CUSHION FOCUS IS FINLAND.

THEY RECENTLY BECAME THE 31st MEMBER OF NATO AND SHARES AN 800-MILE BORDER WITH RUSSIA.

THEY'RE CURRENTLY IN THE MIDST OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BUT BOTH CANDIDATES FOR THE TOP JOB AGREE ON SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

JOINING ME NOW IS ALEXANDER STUBB, WHO SQUEAKED OUT A WIN IN THE FIRST ROUND AND FACES THE VOTERS AGAIN ON SUNDAY.

ALEXANDER STUBB, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE ELECTION IN A SECOND, BUT I WANT TO KNOW FIRST AFTER OUR REPORT FROM FRED PLEITGEN WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE SUCCESSES, BECAUSE REALLY, AS YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST A LOT OF DOOM AND GLOOM COMING FROM THE UKRAINIAN BATTLEFIELD.

>> YEAH, I THINK THE WAR'S VERY MUCH IN A STALEMATE, AND IN A SENSE, IT'S MUCH EASIER TO DEFEND THAN TO ATTACK, AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF BACK AND FORTH IN THE PAST TWO YEARS APPROACHING THE ANNIVERSARY.

I DO AGREE WITH SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO THAT THE PATH TOWARDS PEACE DOES GO THROUGH THE BATTLEFIELD.

I THINK RIGHT NOW, WHAT UKRAINE NEEDS IS FINANCE, WE'VE GOT THAT FROM BOTH THE U.S., HOPEFULLY, AND FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION.

IT NEEDS WEAPONS AND, FINALLY, IT NEEDS AMMUNITION.

I THINK WE SHOULD USE THE TERM THAT THE HEAD OF ECB USED IN THE OLD DAYS DURING THE EURO CRISIS, WHATEVER IT TAKES.

WE NEED TO HELP UKRAINE.

>> AND JUST TO QUOTE THEIR POTENTIALLY OUTGOING ARMY CHIEF, WHO WROTE AN ESSAY FOR CNN, SAYING, WE MUST CONTEND WITH THE REDUCTION IN MILITARY SUPPORT FROM KEY ALIES GRAPPLING WITH THEIR OWN POLITICAL TENSIONS.

SO, I DON'T KNOW, IS FINLAND GRAPPLING WITH POLITICAL TENSIONS?

YOU'RE IN A RUNOFF FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF VOTING TO BE PRESIDENT, AND I BELIEVE IN FINLAND, THE PRESIDENT IS, YOU KNOW, MAKES A LOT OF THE FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS, IF NOT ALL OF THEM.

WHAT WOULD BE THE DIFFERENCE, DEPENDING ON WHO WINS, FOR UKRAINE?

>> I THINK NO DIFFERENCE, WE ARE STEADFAST SUPPORTERS OF UKRAINE, AND, INDEED, THE PRESIDENT OF FINLAND IS TASKED WITH FOREIGN POLICY, AND HE OR SHE IS ALSO THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

WE'VE DONE OUR SHARE AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

I KNOW THE SUMS FEEL A LITTLE BIT SMALL, BUT $1.6 BILLION IS NOT A SMALL FIGURE FOR US, ON TOP OF THAT, WE'VE GIVEN ABOUT $0.6 BILLION ON AID, SO, WE WILL CONTINUE TO HELP UKRAINE, AND OF COURSE YOU CAN ASK WHY?

WELL, THE REASON IS, BECAUSE WE HAVE IN OUR HISTORICAL MEMORY MANY SKIRMISHES WITH RUSSIA.

THEY ATTACKED US IN THE WINTER WAR, SO, WE HAVE A VERY SIMILAR EXPERIENCE TO THE UKRAINIANS.

WE CAN IDENTIFY WITH THE TRAGEDY THAT'S TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S WHY MOST FINNS STAND BEHIND UKRAINE.

>> SO, LET ME TAKE THIS MOMENT TO ASK YOU, WHY YOU RETURNED TO POLITICS?

YOU SAID IT WAS THE EXISTENTIAL CONCERN OF RUSSIA'S INVASION, AFTER YOU HAD RETIRED.

>> YES, FOR US, FOREIGN SECURITY POLICY IS ALWAYS EXISTENTIAL.

WE HAVE THAT 800-MILE BORDER WITH RUSSIA.

AND THE REASON WE JOINED NATO, AND THE REASON I RETURNED TO POLITICS, WAS THAT I FELT THAT THERE WAS A POTENTIAL EXISTENTIAL THREAT COMING FROM RUSSIA.

THERE WAS A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE, THE FIRST ONE STARTED WITH RUSSIA'S ATTACK IN GEORGIA, 2008, AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE ANNEXATION OF THE CRIMEAN PENINSULA, BUT WE IN FINLAND FELT VERY STRONGLY ON THE 24th OF FEBRUARY, 2022, WHEN PUTIN ATTACKED THAT THIS COULD POTENTIALLY HAPPEN TO US.

AND WE SOUGHT THEN REFUGE AND SECURITY WHERE WE POSSIBLY COULD.

AND WE FEEL THAT WE ARE IN A VERY SECURE PLACE RIGHT NOW, AND SHORTLY, IT'S FOR THREE RUNS.

ONE, WE HAVE ONE OF THE STRONGEST ARMED FORCES AND DEFENSE SYSTEMS IN EUROPE.

TWO, WE'RE MEMBERS OF THE EU AND NATO, AND THREE, WE JUST SIGNED A DEFENSE COOPERATION AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES, SO, WE'RE SAFE AND SECURE, BUT WE NEED TO MANAGE THROUGH THESE TURBULENT TIMES IN A NEW ERA HERE IN FINLAND, AS WELL.

>> SO, I JUST WANT TO PUT TO YOU SOMETHING THAT THE OUTGOING PRESIDENT TOLD CNN, YOU KNOW, AWHILE AGO, ACTUALLY MORE THAN A YEAR AGO, ABOUT WHEN HE FIRST INFORMED PUTIN THAT THEY WERE GOING TO SEEK -- YOU ALL WERE GOING TO SEEK NATO.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD US.

>> HE CONFIRMED THAT HE THINKS IT'S A MISTAKE, WE ARE NOT THREATENING YOU.

ALTOGETHER, THE DISCUSSION I WOULD SAY WAS VERY CALM AND COOL, AND HE DIDN'T REPEAT THOSE THREATS HE HAD EARLIER.

>> SO, I FOUND THAT INTERESTING, BECAUSE EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, WONDERS, IS PUTIN GOING TO, YOU KNOW, THROW A FIT, AND HE DIDN'T.

BUT DO YOU THINK THAT NOW THAT YOU HAVE ACTUALLY FORMALLY EXCEEDED, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE FUTURE, NOT JUST FOR YOUR COUNTRY, BUT HOW DOES THAT HELP BOLSTER NATO, HOW DOES IT HELP PROTECT EUROPE, PARTICULARLY NOW, AS A -- A VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR UKRAINE, WITH THE MILITARY SHORTAGES?

>> SURE, WELL, I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WAS VERY COOL, CALM, AND COLLECTED WHEN HE NAVIGATED US INTO THE ALLIANCE, AND, OF COURSE, HE'S HAD, AND WE'VE HAD, A STRONG BACKING OF ALL FINNS.

WE HAVE THIS INTERESTING SEQUENCING OF NUMBERS, 80-90-90.

80% OF FINNS ARE WILLING TO DIE FOR THEIR COUNTRY.

IT'S NUMBER ONE IN EUROPE.

90% IS THE POPULARITY OF OUR NATO MEMBERSHIP.

AND 90% OF FINNS ARE WILLING TO SEND OUR SOLDIERS INTO NATO OPERATIONS.

AND THAT JUST, I THINK, SHOWS YOU HOW STRONGLY FOREIGN SECURITY POLICY IS EXISTENTIAL FOR OUR US.

WE TRY TO NAVIGATE AND WORK WITH RUSSIA AFTER THE COLD WAR, ESPECIALLY, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, RUSSIA DID NOT BECOME A NORMAL, LAW-ABIDING STATE.

AND THE CONSEQUENCE IS, HE TRIED TO MAKE UKRAINE RUSSIAN, ENDED UP MAKING IT EUROPEAN.

HE TRIED TO BASICALLY SPLIT NATO, AND HE ENDED UP UNITING NATO AND MAKING FINLAND AND SWEDEN NATO MEMBERS, AS WE STAND.

WE FEEL VERY SAFE AND SECURE AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME IN HISTORY.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU TWO QUESTIONS FOLLOWING ON FROM THAT.

YOU KNOW, ALL WELL AND GOOD, BUT NATO NATIONS HAVE NOT DELIVERED EVERYTHING THAT UKRAINE NEEDS.

AND WAS PROMISED, FRANKLY.

THE UNITED STATES SPECIFICALLY, THE EU DID COME UP AND PLUG THE GAP LAST WEEK, AND MAY HAVE TO PLUG THE GAP ALL THE WAY UP TO THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN THE UNITED STATES.

TELL ME HOW YOU ENVISION THIS NEXT TEN MONTHS IN TERMS OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND WHERE DO YOU THINK THE WAR, THE BALANCE OF POWER, IS GOING TO FALL THIS YEAR?

>> OKAY, SO, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PRESSURE ON EUROPEAN STATES, ON THE UNITED STATES, TO CONTINUE SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AND I'M FULLY WITH THAT.

THERE ARE FEW THINGS WE SHOULD DO.

NUMBER ONE, I THINK WE SHOULD FREE THE FROZEN ASSETS OF RUSSIA IN FOREIGN RESERVES, $300 BILLION.

THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN TO UKRAINE.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE LEGAL ISSUES THERE, BUT I THINK WE ARE BEYOND THAT POINT.

SECOND THING I WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT THE EUROPEAN INVESTMENT BANK SHOULD FREE ITS FINSING, ALSO TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY, BECAUSE WE'RE IN A NEW WORLD.

WE NEED MORE AMMUNITION, UNFORTUNATELY.

WE ALSO NEED MORE WEAPONS, SO, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT, BECAUSE WHAT UKRAINE IS DOING RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE ALSO DEFENDING OUR FREEDOM IN EUROPE AND IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE ARE WE GOING TO BE IN, SAY, TEN MONTHS?

I, OF COURSE, HOPE THAT WE WOULD HAVE A CEASE-FIRE, I HOPE THERE WOULD BE A PEACE AGREEMENT, BUT WE'RE STILL FAR AWAY FROM THAT.

ZELENSKYY IS WORKING IN THAT DIRECTION, PUTIN IS NOT.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS ALSO AN INTERVENTION, FROM CHINA, BECAUSE PUTIN WILL HAVE TO LISTEN TO PRESIDENT XI JINPING, IF XI JINPING WOULD SAY, IT IS TIME TO END THE WAR, I THINK THINGS WOULD START HAPPENING QUITE QUICKLY.

FROM ZELENSKYY'S PER SPECK TY, HE NEEDS AT LEAST FOUR THINGS.

NUMBER ONE IS TERRITORY, THAT'S HIS, WHAT WE CALL, QUESTION.

NUMBER TWO IS SECURITY GUARANTEES.

AND ALSO PATHWAY TOWARDS EU AND NATO MEMBERSHIP.

NUMBER THREE, HE NEEDS JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMINALS IN COURT.

AND FOUR, HE NEEDS RECONSTRUCTION, AND THEN WE CAN START DISCUSSING PEACE.

>> DO YOU FEEL LIKE SOME, I GUESS, BALTIC NATIONS, AND EVEN GENERAL PETRAEUS, THE FORMER U.S. MILITARY COMMANDER, FORMER CIA CHIEF, HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IF PUTIN WINS HERE, HE'S NOT GOING TO STOP THERE.

YOU KNOW, SUBSTANTIAL OBJECTIVES COULD BE EXPANDED, MOLDOVA, YOU KNOW, THE BALTIC STATES.

DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?

IS NATO MAKING PLANS TO UP ITS DEFENSES ON ITS OWN BORDERS?

>> WELL, OF COURSE I WORRY ABOUT IT.

AND I THINK THE WHOLE IDEA IS THAT WITH PUTIN, THE ONLY THING THAT HE UNDERSTANDS IS POWER.

AND THEREFORE, WE HAVE TO FACE HIM THE HARD WAY.

THAT'S WHAT UKRAINE IS DOING RIGHT NOW.

HE ACTUALLY STARTED THIS WAR, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE COULD DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING THAT HE DID IN GEORGIA IN 2008, AND WITH THE CRIMEA PENINSULA IN 2014, BUT HE MADE A FUNDAMENTAL, TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC BLUNDER.

ONE, HE THOUGHT THAT HIS MILITARY WAS STRONG, IT WASN'T.

TWO, HE DIDN'T THINK THAT UKRAINE WOULD BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK, WELL, LOOK, WE'RE ALMOST TWO YEARS INTO THE CONFLICT, AND HERE WE ARE.

AND THREE, HE THOUGHT THAT THE WEST WOULD NOT BE UNITED.

SO, WE JUST HAVE TO KEEP ON PUSHING AND HELPING UKRAINE, BEST WE CAN.

NATO WILL STAND STRONGLY BEHIND UKRAINE, BUT I DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO START GIVING UKRAINE A CLEAR PATHWAY, OF COURSE, ALREADY TOWARDS EU MEMBERSHIP, BUT ALSO TOWARDS NATO MEMBERSHIP, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ULTIMATE DETERRENT, AND THAT WILL MAKE PUTIN REALIZE HE'S LOST THE WAR.

>> SO, ON THE ISSUE OF UNITY, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, IT'S BEEN PRETTY ROCK SOLID FOR THE BETTER PART OF THESE TWO YEARS, BUT YOU CAN SEE THE CRACKS.

YOU CAN SEE THE CRACKS IN THE UNITED STATES, TRUMP JUST RECENTLY SAID, WE'RE PAYING FOR NATO, WE DON'T GET MUCH OUT OF IT, I HATE TO TELL YOU ABOUT NATO, IF WE EVER NEEDED THEY'RE HELP.

AND OF COURSE, YOU'VE GOT THE, YOU KNOW, THE VIEWS OF THE HUNGARIAN PRIME MINISTER VICTOR ORBAN, WHO HAS BEEN HOLDING THINGS UP AND HAS A SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT VIEW OF RUSSIA AND THIS WAR.

AND WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE EUROPEAN, YOU KNOW, PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS THAT'S COMING UP IN THE SPRING.

DO YOU WORRY THAT A BIGGER GROUPING OF LIKE-MINDED, YOU KNOW, ORBANSITAS, IF YOU LIKE, WILL DO WELL IN EUROPE AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE ON THIS SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE?

>> AH, I DON'T THINK THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS ARE GOING TO PLAY A PART IN THE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

THERE IS STILL FAIRLY STRONG SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IN EUROPE ALL AROUND.

AND, OF COURSE, ORBAN IS THE ODD MAN OUT.

HE'S QUITE LONELY AT THE MOMENT, BECAUSE HE LOST HIS ALLIES IN POLAND AND WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

I AM A LITTLE BIT MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE U.S., AND ESPECIALLY THE DIVISION AND THE POLITICAL TOXICITY THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE U.S., AND EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE OUT HANGING THERE, BECAUSE OF THE ELECTIONS.

AND I THINK A LOT OF STRONG REPUBLICANS, THEY WOULD PREFER TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, THERE ARE DIFFICULT MOMENTS THERE.

AS FAR AS TRUMP IS CONCERNED, HE'S A TRANSACTIONALIST, AND I WOULD ASSUME THAT HE WOULD LOOK AT THINGS FROM AN ALTERNATIVE COST PERSPECTIVE, AND HE WOULD BE GIVEN THE FIGURES.

IS IT USEFUL FOR THE U.S. TO HELP UKRAINE OR NOT, WHAT KIND OF AID SHOULD WE GIVE?

I THINK HE'S RIGHT TO POINT OUT TO OTHER NATO COUNTRIES THAT THEY NEED TO STICK TO THE 2% DEFENSE BUDGET.

I THINK HE'S RIGHT ON THAT.

AND I AM ALSO QUITE CONVINCED THAT WHEN THE FACTS ARE ON THE TABLE AND WHEN THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO CONTINUE TO BE ONE OF THE GREAT SUPER POWERS OF THE WORLD, THE U.S. WILL ALSO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

IT'S OUR COST.

>> ALEXANDER STUBB, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, AND WE'LL BE WATCHING OUT FOR THE RESULTS OF NEXT WEEK'S RUNOFF.

SO MUCH AT STAKE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, HERE IN LONDON, AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM BUCKINGHAM PALACE HAS SHOCKED THE NATION.

TODAY, REVEALING THAT KING CHARLES III HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER AND HAS COMMENCED TREATMENT FOR THIS.

FOR MORE ON THIS, WE'RE JOINED NOW BY ROYAL CORRESPONDENT MAX FOSTER.

>> WELL, WE'VE HAD A STATEMENT, I'LL GO THROUGH IT, BECAUSE IT'S QUITE DETAILED.

THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY SPENT A LOT OF TIME OF IT TO TRY TO ADDRESS SO MANY OF THE CONCERNS THAT WILL COME OUT OF THIS, BUT WHAT WE'RE BEING TOLD IS THAT DURING THE KING'S RECENT HOSPITAL PROCEDURE FOR BENIGN PROSTATE ENLARGEMENT, A SEPARATE ISSUE OF CONCERN WAS NOTED AND SUBSEQUENT DIAGNOSTIC TESTS HAVE IDENTIFIED A FORM OF CANCER.

I'M BEING TOLD, CHRISTIANE, BY A SOURCE, IT'S NOT PROSTATE CANCER, SO, THIS IS SOMETHING SEPARATE, SO, VERY FORTUNATE THAT HE WENT IN FOR THOSE TESTS.

THE KING HAS COMMENCED A SCHEDULE OF REGULAR TREATMENT DURING WHICH HE'S BEEN ADVISED BY DOCTORS TO POSTPONE PUBLIC-FACING DUTIES, SO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE HIM, THOUGH HE WILL CONTINUE TO UNDERTAKE STATE BUSINESS TO TRY TO EMPHASIZE THAT, AS HEAD OF STATE, HE'LL BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THOSE CRUCIAL FUNCTIONS.

SO, THE STATE SYSTEM, THE CONSTITUTION, STILL CONTINUES, BUT WE WON'T BE SEEING HIM IN PUBLIC.

HE'S GRATEFUL TO THE MEDICAL TEAM FOR -- AND GIVING A THANKS TO THE HOSPITAL PROCEDURE, AND HE REMAINS POSITIVE, THEY SAY, THAT -- ABOUT HIS TREATMENT AND HE LOOKS FORWARD TO RETURNING TO DUTIES WHEN HE CAN.

AND HE, CHRISTIANE, YOU'LL REMEMBER THAT HE SHARED HIS DIAGNOSIS BEFORE TO RAISE AWARENESS, HE'S DOING THAT AGAIN, AND ALSO TO PREVENT SPECULATION AND REALLY HOPING TO ASSIST THE PUBLIC IN UNDERSTANDING, AND PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, REALLY, WHAT IT IS TO BE AFFECTED BY CANCER.

JUST SEPARATELY, THEY WON'T BE SHARING ANY SPECIFIC DETAILS ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT FORM OF CANCER THIS IS, I'M TOLD, AT LEAST FOR NOW, AND HE HAS RETURNED FROM SANDRINGHAM TO LONDON FOR TREATMENT AS AN OUTPATIENT.

SO, HE'S NOT IN HOSPITAL.

>> WHAT DOES IT -- FOR PEOPLE WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE, WHAT DO YOU THINK, AND FOR BRITS, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE WHOLE CONSTITUTION ORDER?

EVERYTHING IS STILL AS IS, RIGHT?

THERE'S NO CHANGE, OBVIOUSLY, THE GOVERNMENT IS -- IS IN CHARGE OF RUNNING THE COUNTRY, BUT NO OTHER CHANGE, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, SO, THE SYSTEM CONTINUES, BECAUSE THEY'RE TELLING US, YOU KNOW, THE REALLY MOST IMPORTANT CONSTITUTIONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF STATE WILL BE CARRIED ON BY HIM, SO, STILL GOING TO SIGN THE PAPERS.

SO, THAT'S ONE LEVEL OF IT.

BUT THE SAME TIME, IT WAS INTERESTING TODAY, CHRISTIANE, WE GOT A NOTE SAYING THAT PRINCE WILLIAM WOULD BE RETURNING TO HIS PUBLIC DUTIES, WHEN WE WERE EXPECTING HIM TO BE OFF, SUPPORTING HIS WIFE, WHO HAS HAD AN OPERATION, AS WELL.

SO, I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS PRINCE WILLIAM STEPPING UP TO REPRESENT THE MONARCHY IN THE PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, CAPACITY -- >> MAX -- >> YEAH?

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, IT'S VERY NOTABLE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE KING'S HOUSEHOLD, WITH -- AS MUCH INFORMATION AS WE'VE HAD FROM THEM THROUGHOUT, AND LITERALLY ZERO INFORMATION FROM PRINCE WILLIAM'S WIFE, PRINCESS CATHERINE OF WALES.

DO YOU THINK WE'LL HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HER AFLIX ACTUALLY WAS, WHY SHE WENT INTO HOSPITAL?

FOR THAT OPERATION?

>> WELL, ON THIS LATEST DIAGNOSIS, THEY ARE TAKING THE SAME POLICY THAT THEY'RE SAYING THERE HAS BEEN A PROCEDURE AND THERE'S AN AREA OF CONCERN, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE FURTHER DETAIL.

I THINK THAT WE HEARD, YOU KNOW, LAST WEEK ABOUT THE ENLARGED PROSTATE SIMPLY TO RAISE AWARENESS, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO A PROCEDURE THAT COULD ACTUALLY AFFECT A SENIOR ROYAL, THEY HAVE TO TELL THE PUBLIC, WHICH IS WHY THEY'RE TELLING US NOW, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO FURTHER DETAIL ABOUT THE SPECIFICS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

AND I GUESS NOT CATHERINE, EITHER, PRINCESS OF WALES, FOR THE MOMENT.

MAX, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND I KNOW YOU'LL BE FOLLOWING THIS FOR THE NETWORK.

>>> NOW, TO THE STARS WITH A WOMAN LEADING HUMANKIND TO DESTINATIONS EVER FURTHER INTO THE COSMOS.

PAM MELROY IS THE DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF NASA.

A FORMER AIR FORCE PILOT AND ASTRONAUT THAT HELPED BUILD THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION.

THERE'S NO ONE BETTER TO ASK ABOUT THE STATE OF AMERICA'S MISSION TO THE MOON AND BEYOND, AFTER A SERIES OF RECENT SETBACKS.

HERE'S MY CONVERSATION RECENTLY WITH PAM MELROY.

PAM MELROY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

I'M A FAN AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO OUR CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU, WELL, I'M A HUGE SPACE FAN, I, TOO, WATCHED THE MOONWALK, APOLLO 11, CAN I JUST ASK YOU THIS, THOUGH, ARE WE IN ANOTHER SPACE RACE?

FOR 50 YEARS, THE UNITED STATES DOMINATED, AND NOW, WITH THE PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, YOU KNOW, COMING INTO THE SPACE TRAVEL, THE SPACE EXPLORATION, WE SAW JUST RECENTLY A VERY HYPED SPACE -- SPACEX STARSHIPS BLOWING UP AFTER TAKEOFF IN THE U.S. LAST YEAR.

NASA WAS HOPING THAT THESE WOULD REALLY BE, YOU KNOW, SOME PIE THIS HERING PIONEERING VOYAGES.

WE SEE THAT, AND THEN WE HEARD THE ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THE ARTEMIS MISSION TO ORBIT THE MOON IS GOING TO BE DELAYED, AND THEN THE NEXT ARTEMIS MISSION TO LAND ON THE MOON FOR THE FIRST TIME IN DECADES IS GOING TO BE FURTHER DELAYED.

AT THE SAME TIME, COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA, CHINA, JAPAN, ARE HAVING NATIONAL CELEBRATIONS ABOUT THEIR SUCCESSES.

DOES THIS WORRY YOU?

>> OH, NOT IN THE LEAST.

WE HAVE PLENTY OF OUR OWN SUCCESSES, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT'S EVIDENT.

REALLY, WE HAVE THE ONLY VEHICLE THAT IS CURRENTLY CAPABLE OF TAKING HUMANS TO DEEP SPACE.

WE'RE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE THAT CAPACITY TODAY.

SO, THAT'S HUGE.

WHATEVER YOU HOPE TO DO, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT, AND IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO DEVELOP THAT CAPABILITY.

REALLY, I THINK WE LOOK AT THIS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.

APOLLO WAS ABOUT TAKING A MAN TO THE MOON AND RETURNING HIM SAFELY TO EARTH.

AND THAT WAS THE END.

WE'RE DOING SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT WITH ARTEMIS.

WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD A BLUEPRINT FOR RESPONSIBLE SUSTAINED HUMAN EXPLORATION OF THE SOLAR SYSTEM, WHICH MEANS, WE NEED TO TAKE OUR TIME, WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO SAFETY, AND WE ALSO NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT DOING MUCH HARDER THINGS, WHICH IS SUSTAINING A HUMAN PRESENCE IN DEEP SPACE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT A CAMPING TRIP.

THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT PUSHING HUMANITY INTO THE SOLAR SYSTEM.

WE'VE LEARNED FROM THE SPACE STATION HOW HARD IT IS TO SUSTAIN PEOPLE IN SPACE.

IT'S A HUGE LOGISTICAL PROBLEM.

SO, FROM OUR STANDPOINT, WE FEEL LIKE WE HAVE ALL THE PIECES IN PLACE TO GO FORWARD.

WE'RE GOING TO DO IT METHODICALLY, WE'RE GOING TO DO IT SAFELY AND GOING TO DO IT FOR THE BENEFIT OF HUMANITY.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT SPACE, THAT IT COULD LEAD TO -- YOU KNOW, SPACE COULD BE MORE WEAPONIZED, IT COULD BE ANOTHER PLATFORM FOR MORE WAR.

>> I WOULD SAY THAT NASA IS BOTH CONCERNED BUT ALSO DETERMINED NOT TO LET THOSE THINGS HAPPEN.

AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE BUILDING AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION TO GO WITH IT ESPECIALLY AS WE PUSH HUMANITY OUT INTO DEEP SPACE FOR RESPONSIBLE SUSTAINED HUMAN PRESENCE THROUGHOUT THE SOLAR SYSTEM.

WE THINK WE NEED TO BRING THE WHOLE WORLD WITH US, AND WE NEED TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT WE CAN ALL AGREE IS -- EMPHASIZES PEACEFUL EXPLORATION.

>> PAM MELROY, YOU WERE, I THINK, EITHER THE, OR AMONG THE ORGANIZERS AND BUILDERS OF THE INITIAL INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION.

AND EVEN AS RELATIONS, LET'S SAY, BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES, STARTED TO CRUMBLE, WE COULD STILL HAVE INTERVIEWS WITH ASTRONAUTS FROM BOTH COUNTRIES ABOUT HOW THEY'RE ACTUALLY COOPERATING UP THERE ON THE INTERNATIONAL STATION.

IS THAT STILL HAPPENING?

IS THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION STILL A PART OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE COOPERATION THAT YOU WANT TO SEE?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

WE'RE INCREDIBLY PROUD, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAD ANY IDEA HOW AMAZING THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION PARTNERSHIP WOULD TURN OUT TO BE.

I THINK IT'S -- IT REALLY IS A REFLECTION OF THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU ARE TRULY EXPLORING FOR THE BENEFIT OF HUMANITY, SPACE CAN BE A UNIFYING CAPABILITY, A UNIFYING FORCE IN AN INCREASINGLY POLARIZED WORLD, AND THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

WE SHARE OUR SCIENTIFIC DATA WITH EACH OTHER, OUR ASTRONAUTS AND COSMONAUTS WORK SIDE-BY-SIDE TOGETHER AND DEVELOP CLOSE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, AND THAT IS REFLECTED ON THE GROUND, AS WELL, IN OUR RELATIONSHIPS.

AND IT'S REALLY AMAZING TO SEE, AND I THINK IT'S PART OF WHAT INSPIRED US GOING FORWARD WITH ARTEMIS AND THE MOON TO MARS CAMPAIGN, THAT WE NEED TO BRING OUR INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS WITH US.

>> OKAY, SO, BREAK SOME NEWS FOR US HERE.

HOW REALISTIC IS IT, DO YOU THINK, OR DO YOU DREAM, OF FINDING LIFE OUTSIDE AN OFF OUR PLANET?

LET ME JUST QUOTE COUPLE OF ASTRONAUTS, TIM PEAK RECENTLY ON CNBC SAYS THE JAMES WEBB TELESCOPE MAY HAVE ALREADY FOUND ALIEN LIFE.

WE FOUND A PLANET THAT SEEMS TO BE GIVING OUT STRONG SIGNALS OF BIOLOGICAL LIFE.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, I PERSONALLY THINK IT'S INEVITABLE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REALLY BEEN TRANSFORMATIVE IN PLANETARY SCIENCE OVER THE LAST TWO, THREE DECADES, IS REALIZING THAT WATER, WHICH IS A CRITICAL BUILDING BLOCK OF LIFE, IS MUCH MORE PRESENT, EVEN IN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM, THAN WE EVER IMAGINED.

WE THOUGHT ASTEROIDS WERE DRY BODIES THAT HAD ABSOLUTELY NO WATER.

WE HAD REAL QUESTIONS, EVEN ABOUT THE MOON.

NOW WE'RE FINDING IT IN PLACES WE DIDN'T EXPECT.

SEEING THOSE BUILDING BLOCKS, AND IN OUR RECENT SAMPLE RETURN FROM THE ASTEROID SHOWS NOT JUST WATER, BUT CARBON, WHICH IS ANOTHER CRITICAL BUILDING BLOCK OF LIFE.

SO, I THINK IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT WE'RE FINDING BIO SIGNATURES POTENTIALLY THROUGH JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE, BUT THE REAL BENEFIT, AND THE PAYOFF, IS GOING TO BE WHEN WE GO TO MARS AND SEE IF WE CAN FIND SIGNS OF LIFE ON OUR NEIGHBOR.

>> WHEN WILL THAT BE?

>> YES, GREAT QUESTION.

WELL, I THINK -- IT'S HARD TO KNOW, ON THE -- FRANKLY, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW YET, SO, WE DO KNOW THAT IT IS OUR MOST INTERESTING NEIGHBOR WITH THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL TO FIND SIGNS OF LIFE.

WE HAVE THE MARS PERSEVERANCE ROVER LOOKING IN A PLACE AND TAKING SAMPLES.

WE SEE EVIDENCE OF OPEN FLOWING WATER AND ATMOSPHERIC PRESENCE IN THE PAST.

FIRST OF ALL, WE'D REALLY LIKE TO UNDERSTAND, IF MARS HAD THAT, WHY DOES IT NOT HAVE IT NOW, BUT SECOND, WE THINK THAT'S A VERY LIKELY PLACE THAT WE'LL FIND SIGNS OF LIFE.

SO, AS FAR AS HUMAN PRESENCE GOES, WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO SET UP A BLUEPRINT AND WE'RE GOING TO PRACTICE IT ON THE MOON, BUT I'D LIKE TO SEE US HEAD TO MARS, I THINK, WITH OUR PLAN, BY THE EARLY 2040s.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT CARBON AND WE ALL HATE THE IDEA OF CARBON, BECAUSE CARBON IS, YOU KNOW, A PROBLEM FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

SO, WHAT IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF SATELLITE THAT LASTS ONLY 5 TO 15 YEARS, THEY GO UP AND THEY PLUNGE BACK DOWN THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE, IT SORT OF DISINTEGRATES, LEAVING A STREAM OF POLLUTANTS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE STATS FEAR?

WHAT IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF ALL THIS SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION?

>> WELL, THE REALITY IS, WE DON'T KNOW YET.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT NASA'S REALLY GOOD AT.

WE ARE CURRENTLY WORKING WITH PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD, BUT ALSO AT OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES LIKE NOAA TO UNDERSTAND THIS BETTER, AND WITH ACADEMICS.

I THINK I'M GOING TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE, PERHAPS IN 1920, WE DIDN'T WORRY ABOUT AIRCRAFT, BECAUSE THERE WERE SO FEW OF THEM FLYING.

AND I THINK THAT'S STILL WHERE WE'RE AT.

THE VOLUME IS -- OF SPACE FLIGHT IS NOTHING CLOSE TO AVIATION YET, AND SO, THE IMPACT ON THE ATMOSPHERE IS -- IS JUST NEGLIGIBLE, COMPARED TO THE AVIATION INDUSTRY TODAY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE TREND CONTINUES, WE WILL HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT, AND SO, WE HAVE TO DO THAT FOUNDATIONAL RESEARCH NOW TO UNDERSTAND IT.

SO, THE ALARM HAS BEEN RAISED, BUT WE'VE GOT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS.

>> SUPERSONIC TRAVEL WAS A REALITY WHEN THERE WAS CONCORD, AND CONCORD THEN, YOU KNOW, DISAPPEARED.

IT WASN'T COST EFFECTIVE, THERE WAS THAT TERRIBLE ACCIDENT BACK IN THE EARLY 2000s.

WILL NASA AND THE WHOLE PRIVATE/PUBLIC SORT OF CONNECTION -- WILL IT HAVE AN IMPACT ON BRINGING BACK SUPERSONIC TRAVEL, BUT FOR THE MASSES THIS TIME?

IT WAS UNAFFORDABLE FOR MOST BEFORE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WE'RE VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

ANOTHER THING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW IS THAT IT WASN'T POSSIBLE TO FLY SUPERSONIC OVER -- OVER LAND MASSES, BECAUSE OF THE SOUND OF THE SONIC BOOM.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, BROKE WINDOWS, VERY DISTURBING TO WILDLIFE, AND SO FORTH.

AND SO, THE CONCORD COULD ONLY FLY SUPERSONIC OVER THE OCEAN.

WITH OUR NEW X-PLANE THAT WE'VE DESIGNED, AND WE WILL BE FLYING THIS YEAR, WE HAVE FIGURED OUT A WAY TO SHAPE THE AIRCRAFT IN A WAY THAT THE SOUND OF A SONIC BOOM IS ABOUT THE SAME SOUND AS A DOOR CLOSING.

AND IF WE CAN SHOW HOW TO DO THAT, THAT WILL ACTUALLY ENABLE SUPERSONIC FLIGHT OVER LAND.

AND I THINK THERE IS A GROWING INTEREST IN THIS.

I OFTEN SAY, BOY, I WISH I COULD GET FROM NEW YORK TO LOS ANGELES IN HALF THE TIME.

AND I THINK THAT -- THAT -- THERE IS INTEREST IN THAT, AND I THINK THAT IF WE ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH OUR X-PLANE, WE WILL SEE THAT BECOME MORE COMMERCIALLY VIABLE IN ABOUT A DECADE.

>> AND DOES ANYTHING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT, SHOULD THAT WORRY US, GIVEN THAT PLANE TRAVEL HAS A HUGE, VERY NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT?

>> I COMPLETELY AGREE.

AVIATION IS ONE OF THE HARDEST TO DECARBONIZE.

WE HAVE ANOTHER X-PLANE TACKLING THAT FOR NARROW BODY LONG HAUL, WHICH IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST IMPACT ON EMISSIONS RIGHT NOW, THAT WILL REDUCE THE EMISSIONS AERODYNAMICALLY, BUT WE'RE ALSO WORKING ON HYBRID ENGINES.

SO, THINK A PRIUS FOR AN AIRPLANE IS THE CLOSEST I CAN DESCRIBE IT, WHICH WILL REDUCE EMISSIONS, AS WELL.

SO, WE'RE TACKLING THAT FOR TODAY'S AVIATION, BUT AS WELL, FOR SUPERSONIC, IT IS A CONCERN, AND SO NASA HAS A PROGRAM LOOKING AT SUSTAINABLE FUELS FOR SUPERSONIC FLIGHT, BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER REQUIREMENT TO MAKE THAT REALLY EFFECTIVE IN THE FUTURE.

>> WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT APOLLO, YOU SAID ITS MISSION WAS TO SEND A MAN TO THE MOON AND BRING HIM BACK SAFELY.

>> THAT'S ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN.

ONE GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND.

>> THAT WAS NOT LOST ON ME OR YOU, THERE HAS BEEN NO WOMAN WALKING ON THE MOON.

AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THOUGHT, WHAT IS YOUR JOURNEY TO THE STARS, SO TO SPEAK, WHAT INSPIRED YOU, AS A YOUNG GIRL?

>> WELL, I WAS TOTALLY INSPIRED BY THE APOLLO PROGRAM.

AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS, AS I HAVE PROGRESSED THROUGH MY CAREER, THE NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS, PILOTS, ENGINEERS THAT I'VE MET WHO WERE ALSO INSPIRED BY THE APOLLO PROGRAM.

SO, WHAT IS EXCITING TO ME IS TO SEE THAT OUR ARTEMIS CAMPAIGN, I BELIEVE, IS GOING TO UNLEASH A TIDAL WAVE OF YOUNG PEOPLE INTERESTED IN STEM AND IN SPACE EXPLORATION, AND THIS TIME, IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND I'M PRETTY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

THE GREAT PART IS THAT OUR ASTRONAUT OFFICE IS MUCH MORE DIVERSE THAN IT WAS IN THE '60s.

IT REFLECTS THE FULL FACE OF AMERICA, AND THE CAPABILITIES THAT WE HAVE, AND AS A RESULT, THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN QUITE NATURALLY, THAT WE WILL LAND THE FIRST WOMAN ON THE MOON, AND THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR.

>> AND HOW DID YOU GET INTO THIS BUSINESS?

>> WELL, BACK IN THE DAY, THE ONLY ASTRONAUTS THAT I KNEW ABOUT WERE MILITARY JET TEST PILOTS, SO BEING A LITTLE STUBBORN, I DECIDED THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO, TOO, EVEN THOUGH WOMEN WERE NOT ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO FLY YET IN THE MILITARY.

BUT I WAS VERY FORTUNATE, I WAS BORN EXACTLY AT THE RIGHT TIME, I THINK, CHRISTIANE, I FEEL VERY FORTUNATE THAT THE DOORS OPENED JUST AHEAD OF ME.

ALLOWING WOMEN TO FLY JETS IN THE AIR FORCE, ALLOWING ME TO BECOME A TEST PILOT.

AND THAT WAS MY PROGRESSION TO BECOMING AN ASTRONAUT.

>> TEST PILOT.

SOUNDS SO COOL.

AND DANGEROUS.

AND SCARY.

AND "TOP GUN-Y".

>> AND FUN.

>> PAM, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

IT WAS A PLEASURE.

>> A PIONEERING WOMAN, INDEED.

>>> AND NOW, AS WE SEE THE U.S. MAY BE TRYING TO PUSH THE BOUNDARIES IN SPACE TRAVEL, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BASICS, LIKE HAVING RACIAL EQUALITY IN HEALTH CARE, FOR INSTANCE, IT'S LAGGING BEHIND.

OUR NEXT GUEST, DR. UCHE BLACKSTOCK, SAYS THAT BLACK PHYSICIANS ONLY MAKE UP OVER 5% OF DOCTORS ACROSS THE NATION, AND THE REPORT THAT CAME OUT IN 1910, FORCING FIVE OUT OF SEVEN BLACK MEDICAL SCHOOLS TO CLOSE, IS LARGELY TO BLAME.

SHE DETAILS ALL OF THIS IN HER NEW BOOK.

"LEGACY: A BLACK PHYSICIAN RECONS WITH RACISM IN MEDICINE."

AND SHE'S JOINING MICHEL MARTIN ON BLACK HISTORY MONTH TO TALK ABOUT RACIAL BARRIERS IN THE INDUSTRY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

DR. UCHE BLACKSTOCK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, DR. BLACKSTOCK, YOU ARE ACTUALLY ONE OF THREE DR. BLACKSTOCKS, AND YOU AND YOUR SISTER, TWIN SISTER, WERE THE FIRST LEGACIES FROM BOTH HARVARD UNDERGRAD AND HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL, WHERE YOU MOM WENT.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR MOM, WHY DID SHE WANT TO BE A DOCTOR?

>> WE REFER TO HER AS THE ORIGINAL DR. BLACKSTOCK, AND SHE WAS -- SHE GREW UP IN VERY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES THAN MY SISTER AND ME.

SHE GREW UP HERE IN CENTRAL BROOKLYN, IN NEW YORK, IN POVERTY.

HER FAMILY WAS ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE, TO A SINGLE MOM.

SHE HAD FIVE OTHER SIBLINGS, AND THEY MOVED OFTEN, CHANGED SCHOOLS OFTEN, LIFE WAS REALLY QUITE DIFFICULT FOR HER, BUT MY MOM HAD VERY STRONG WORK ETHIC, SHE HAD A STRONG CURIOSITY FOR SCIENCE, AND WHEN SHE WAS IN -- SHE BECAME THE FIRST PERSON IN HER FAMILY TO GRADUATE FROM COLLEGE.

AND IN COLLEGE, SHE ACTUALLY HAD A CHEMISTRY PROFESS SORE, A BLACK MAN, WHO SAW HER SPARK, WHO SAW HER POTENTIAL, AND SAID, I THINK YOU SHOULD APPLY TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

AND SHE ENDED UP APPLYING TO ALL OF HER MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND GOT INTO EVERY SINGLE ONE AND WENT TO HARVARD MED SCHOOL, WHERE SHE OBVIOUSLY FELT LIKE A FISH OUT OF WATER, BUT SHE FOUND HER PEOPLE THERE.

AND AFTER SHE GRADUATED, SHE ENDED UP COMING BACK TO NOT ONLY NEW YORK CITY, BUT SHE ENDED UP PRACTICING IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD THAT SHE GREW UP IN, YOU KNOW, CARING FOR HER FRIENDS AND HER NEIGHBORS, AND SO, FOR MY SISTER AND ME, JUST SORT OF, YOU KNOW, SEEING THAT, KNOWING HER STORY, IT MADE A HUGE IMPACT ON US IN TERMS OF WHAT WE WANTED TO DO, YOU KNOW, WITH OUR OWN CAREER, AND OBVIOUSLY BEING A PHYSICIAN, THERE WAS NO DOUBT THAT WE WERE GOING TO DO THE SAME.

>> THE PIECE THAT YOU WROTE FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND YOUR BOOK, "LEGACY," WHICH IS KIND OF A MARVELOUS STORY OF FAMILY, AS WELL AS ABOUT HISTORY OF BLACK AMERICANS IN MEDICINE, BUT WHAT -- WHAT DID SHE LIKE ABOUT BEING A PHYSICIAN?

AND WHY WAS SHE SO GOOD AT IT?

>> SHE THOUGHT ABOUT, SORT OF, EVERY ASPECT OF WHAT HER PATIENTS' LIVES WERE.

I ALWAYS SAY, YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CONTEXT IN WHICH HER PATIENTS LIVED.

SO, NOT ONLY DID SHE REALIZE SHE WAS IN THE ROOM WITH HER PATIENT, BUT SHE ALSO RECOGNIZED THAT MORE WHOLISTICALLY, SHE WAS IN THE ROOM WITH THEIR FAMILY, THEIR FRIENDS, WHERE THEY WORKED.

SHE HAD A VERY WHOLISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT MAKES PEOPLE HEALTHY.

NOW, WE TALK ABOUT HEALTH EQUITY, RIGHT, AND THAT'S A MORE -- A NEWER EXPRESSION, BUT I FEEL LIKE MY MOTHER WAS PROVIDING EQUITABLE CARE TO HER PATIENTS, YOU KNOW, IN THE '80s AND '90s WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE THOSE TERMS.

>> YOUR BOOK ARRIVES AT AN INTERESTING MOMENT, WHERE PEOPLE ARE JUST STARTING TO ACKNOWLEDGE SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN TRUE ALL ALONG, WHICH IS THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS, YOU KNOW, BLACK PEOPLE, IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE POORER OUTCOMES, POORER HEALTH OUTCOMES.

THE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATE IS MANY TIMES THAT OF WHITE PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE WHO GET PREGNANT.

PEOPLE WHO ARE SIMILARLY IT IS WAITED IN TERMS OF INCOME AND EDUCATION, YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE CLASSIC INDICATORS, THE HEALTH OUTCOMES ARE STILL POORER.

SO, THE SHORT QUESTION FOR YOU, DR. BLACKSTOCK, IS, WHY IS THAT?

>> SO, THERE'S SEVERAL DIFFERENT REASONS FOR THAT, ALL RELATED TO INTERPERSONAL AND SYSTEMIC RACISM, BUT ONE THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN THE DATA, WE'VE HEARD IT ANECDOTALLY, THAT WHEN WE GO TO SEEK CARE FROM HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, BLACK PEOPLE, WE ARE OFTEN -- OUR CONCERNS ARE DISMISSED, IGNORED, OR MINIMIZED, AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT LEAD TO VERY, VERY HORRIFIC CONSEQUENCES, YOU KNOW, MISDIAGNOSIS, DELAYED DIAGNOSIS, HARM, AND EVEN DEATH.

SO, THERE IS THAT INTERACTION WITH HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, BUT THEN THERE'S ALSO WHAT HAPPENS, YOU KNOW, A WEATHERING PROCESS.

THERE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH RESEARCHER WHO COINED THAT TERM, WEATHERING, AND THIS WEATHERING PROCESS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DEAL WITH A CHRONIC STRESS OF LIVING WITH EVERYDAY RACISM, REGARDLESS OF YOUR ECONOMIC STATUS, AND THAT CAUSES A WEAR AND TEAR ON OUR BODIES THAT PREMATURELY AGES US AND MAKES US SUSCEPTIBLE TO DEVELOPING CHRONIC DISEASES OR DYING EARLY.

BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE THE LOWEST LIFE EXPECTANCY, AND SO, THERE ARE -- THESE ARE THE REASONS FOR THAT.

WE REALLY HAVE TO NAME RACISM WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT, WHAT ARE THE INTERVENTIONS AND SOLUTIONS?

>> WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF THIS?

WHAT MADE YOU KIND OF CONNECT ALL THESE DOTS?

>> ONE THING THAT, YOU KNOW, I WRITE ABOUT IN MY BOOK IS FOR ME, IT WAS A JOURNEY, BECAUSE MANY OF THESE, YOU KNOW, I TALK A LOT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF RACISM IN MEDICINE IN THE BOOK, I TALK ABOUT HOW THE FATHER OF GYNECOLOGY EXPERIMENTED ON SLAVED BLACK WOMEN, MADE THESE DISCOVERIES AND DID SO IN A HORRIFIC WAY, NOT MAINTAINING CONSENT, BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WERE ENSLAVED, AND PERFORMING PAINFUL SURGERIES.

I TALK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE I NEVER LEARNED THAT IN MEDICAL SCHOOL.

I DIDN'T LEARN THAT IN MY RESIDENCY.

THERE WERE SO MANY THINGS THAT I LEARNED AS A PRACTICING PHYSICIAN, AND I GRIEVED NOT HAVING LEARNED THAT, WHEN I WAS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL, AND REALLY MAKING SURE THAT OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS ARE EDUCATED ABOUT THAT, SO WE UNDERSTAND WHY WE ARE HERE TODAY.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THESE MYTHS ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE BEING BIOLOGICALLY DIFFERENT ARE DEEPLY ROOTED IN SLAVERY.

IN JIM CROW.

AND SO, WE KNOW THAT THAT IMPACTS HOW HEALTH PROFESSIONALS CARE FOR PEOPLE, BECAUSE THOSE MYTHS GET PER PECH RATED, UNFORTUNATELY, EVEN IN OUR MEDICAL EDUCATION.

>> READING FROM YOUR BOOK, YOU -- THE NUMBER OF BLACK PHYSICIANS IN THIS COUNTRY REMAINS STUBBORNLY LOW, WITH ONLY 5.4% OF ALL U.S. PHYSICIANS IDENTIFYING AS BLACK.

2.6% AS BLACK MEN, AND 2.8% AS BLACK WOMEN, ALTHOUGH BLACK PEOPLE MAKE UP 13% OF THE POPULATION.

THERE IS ACTUALLY A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF BLACK MALE PHYSICIANS NOW THAN THERE WAS IN 1940, WHEN BLACK MEN MADE UP 2.7% OF BLACK PHYSICIANS.

YOU KNOW, I'M SURE THAT SOME PEOPLE LISTENING TO THIS SAY, WELL, THAT'S JUST TOO BAD, THAT BLACK FOLKS JUST DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT PREPARATION, OR THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE RIGHT EDUCATION, OR, YOU KNOW, OR JUST NOT -- CAN'T JUST CUT THE MUSTARD.

AND WHAT YOU SAY IN YOUR ESSAY AND IN YOUR BOOK IS, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

IT WAS LIKE A DELIBERATE EFFORT TO KIND OF CUT OFF ACCESS TO MEDICAL EDUCATION.

COULD YOU JUST TALK US THROUGH THAT STORY?

>> SO, I TALK ABOUT THE FLEXNER REPORT, THIS REPORT THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN 1910.

THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, WHICH IS THE OLDEST AND LARGEST ORGANIZATION OF PHYSICIANS AND CARNEGIE MELLON FOUNDATION COMMITTED THE REPORT, AND AN EDUCATION SPECIALIST WENT AROUND TO ASSESS ALL 155 U.S. AND CANADIAN MEDICAL SCHOOLS TO HOLD THEM AGAINST HIGHER STANDARDS OF THE WESTERN EUROPEAN MEDICAL SCHOOLS OR IN THE U.S., JOHNS HOPKINS WHICH WAS THE GOLD STANDARD.

OF COURSE, WE KNOW THAT HISTORICALLY BLACK MEDICAL SCHOOLS DID NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES OR WEALTH THAT PREDOMINANTLY WHITE MEDICAL SCHOOLS HAD, SO, THAT REPORT ACTUALLY LED TO THE CLOSURE OF FIVE OUT OF SEVEN OF THE MISOR THEICALLY BLACK COLLEGES IN 1910, LEAVING BEHIND ONLY HOWARD AND MEHARY.

THERE WAS A STUDY THAT CAME OUT IN 2020 THAT ESTIMATED IF THOSE FIVE MEDICAL SCHOOLS HAD REMAINED OPEN, THEY WOULD HAVE TRAINED BETWEEN 25,000 AND 35,000 PHYSICIANS, AND WE KNOW THEY WOULD PROBABLY MOSTLY WOULD HAVE BEEN BLACK PHYSICIANS, BECAUSE TO THIS DAY, THE TWO SCHOOLS, HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, THEY STILL PUT OUT THE LARGEST NUMBER OF BLACK MEDICAL STUDENTS.

BUT WHEN I HEARD THAT NUMBER, WHEN I READ THAT NUMBER, I THOUGHT ABOUT -- I CRIED.

I CRIED.

IT WAS VERY EMOTIONAL, BECAUSE I THOUGHT ABOUT THE TREMENDOUS LOSS TO OUR COMMUNITIES, THEY COULD HAVE CARED FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS.

THEY COULD HAVE MENTORED BLACK STUDENTS AND TRAINEES, THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE LIKELY TO HAVE DONE RESEARCH AROUND BLACK HEALTH, AND SO, THIS DECISION, OR, THIS REPORT THAT WAS MADE IN 1910 AND HAD THIS DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCE, WE'RE STILL SEEING THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF THAT TODAY IN 2024.

WHICH -- >> WELL, TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT ABRAHAM FLEXNER, THIS PERSON WAS AVOWEDLY RACIST, I MEAN, AVOWEDLY RACIST.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT BLACK STUDENTS.

HE WROTE THAT BLACK STUDENTS SHOULD BE TRAINED IN HYGIENE RATHER THAN SURGERY, QUOTING HERE, AND WERE BEST EMPLOYED AS SAN TARNS THAT COULD HELP PROTECT WHITE PEOPLE FROM COMMON DISEASES SUCH AS TUBERCULOSIS.

THE NEGRO COMMUNICATES THOSE DISEASES TO HIS WHITE NEIGHBORS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HE FELT THAT THE ONLY REASON THAT WE SHOULD EVEN BE IN MEDICAL SCHOOLS IS TO PREVENT OUR WHITE PEERS FROM GETTING SICK.

HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE WE NEEDED TO BE THERE, HE FELT THAT BLACK MEDICAL SCHOOLS WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO TRAIN COMPETENT BLACK PHYSICIANS.

SO, HE HELD RACIST BELIEFS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE LEGACY OF RACISM IN MEDICINE.

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY, MANY PHYSICIANS THAT HAVE BEEN REVERED FOR, YOU KNOW, THIS SO-CALLED WONDERFUL WORK THEY'VE DONE, LIKE JAY MARION SIMS, BUT THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT HELD -- WERE ENSLAVERS, OR HELD VERY RACIST BELIEFS.

AND SO, YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT MAY HAVE INFLUENCED THE POLICIES THEY DEVELOPED.

I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT WE NEED MEDICAL SCHOOLS TO, YOU KNOW, CURRENTLY TEACH THIS HISTORY TO OUR STUDENTS, BECAUSE OTHERWISE, THEY REALLY ARE GOING TO THINK, AND WE HAVE DATA THAT SHOWS THIS, THEY'RE REALLY GOING TO THINK THAT THEIR BLACK PATIENTS ARE VERY DIFFERENT, OR THEIR BLACK PEERS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL ARE LITERALLY DIFFERENT, DON'T DESERVE TO BE THERE, OR THEIR BLACK PATIENTS ARE JUST INHERENTLY UNHEALTHY, WHEN ACTUALLY, IT'S A RESULT OF PRACTICES AND POLICIES IN THE PAST AND IN THE CURRENT TIME.

>> WHY WOULD IT BE THAT BLACK PATIENTS WOULD GET DIFFERENT CARE FROM BLACK PHYSICIANS OR SUPERIOR CARE OR HAVE SUPERIOR OUTCOMES?

WHY MIGHT THAT BE?

>> PHYSICIANS ARE JUST LIKE AVERAGE CITIZENS.

THEY ARE THE ONES -- YOU KNOW, THEY LIVE LIFE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, AND SO, THEY ABSORB CULTURAL MESSAGES, YOU KNOW, THROUGH MEDIA, THROUGH BOOKS, FROM THEIR FAMILY, JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE.

AND SO, TO THINK THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE IMPACTED BY ANTI-BLACK MESSAGING THAT IS ALWAYS AROUND US WOULD BE ALMOST SILLY, LIKE, OF COURSE -- OF COURSE THEY PROBABLY HOLD THESE, YOU KNOW, WE CALL THEM UNCONSCIOUS BIAS.

MOST HEALTH PROFESSIONALS WOULD SAY, NO, I WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M GIVING ALL MY PATIENTS THE BEST CARE POSSIBLE, BUT WE ALREADY HAVE THE DATA THAT SHOWS THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

I DON'T THINK THAT THERE SHOULD NECESSARILY ALWAYS BE BLACK PHYSICIANS CARING FOR BLACK PATIENTS, BECAUSE THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK OUT THAT WAY.

WE NEED ALL PHYSICIANS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR RACIAL BACK GROUND, TO BE ABLE TO ADEQUATELY AND COMPETENTLY CARE FOR PLAQUE PATIENTS, BUT I THINK PART OF THAT IS REALLY STARTING TO ASSESS WHAT YOUR INTERNAL BIASES ARE.

WE KNOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN TERMS OF HOW PAIN IS TREATED IN BLACK PATIENTS, LIKE, THERE IS DATA THAT SHOWS THAT BLACK PATIENTS PAIN IS OFTEN, LIKE, UNDERTREATED, THAT THE PERCEPTION OF HOW MUCH IN PAIN THEY ARE IS LESS THAN WHITE PATIENTS.

>> IT DOES MAKE YOU WONDER IF SOME OF THESE POOR OUTCOMES ARISE NOT JUST FROM ACCESS, BUT FROM AVOIDANCE.

YOU'VE HAD NECK EXPERIENCES WITH HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS, YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK DOWN ON YOU, TREAT YOU POORLY, YOU DON'T GO.

IT JUST SORT OF MAKES YOU WONDER, YOU KNOW?

YEAH.

>> THE THING ABOUT THIS IDEA ABOUT UNMET NEEDS IN BLACK COMMUNITIES, AND THOSE UNMET NEEDS ARE OFTEN A RESULT OF BLACK PATIENTS NOT FEELING COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO SEEK CARE.

AND SO, WHEN THEY DON'T SEEK CARE, WHATEVER DISEASE PROCESS IS HAPPENING ACTUALLY GETS WORSE.

I WROTE ABOUT A PATIENT IN MY BOOK WHO, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN URGENT CARE WITH HIM, AN ELDERLY BLACK MAN, HE HAD COVID PNEUMONIA.

I SAID, SIR, YOU NEED TO GO TO THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT.

HE SAID, NO, I KNOW THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TREAT ME WELL THERE.

AND TO THIS DAY, I WONDER ABOUT HIM, I WONDER HOW MANY OTHER PATIENTS WERE LIKE HIM THAT DECIDED TO GO HOME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T THINK THEY WOULD RECEIVE RESPECTFUL AND DIGNIFIED CARE.

>> SO, WHAT'S THE WAY FORWARD HERE?

I MEAN, YOU'VE POINTED OUT SO MANY THINGS.

WHAT'S THE WAY FORWARD HERE?

IN YOUR OPINION?

>> SO, I HAVE A LOT OF IDEAS ABOUT THE WAY FORWARD, BUT I DO THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO ON AN INDIVIDUAL AND A PERSONAL LEVEL AND THEN MORE ON A POLICY LEVEL.

I THINK ON, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THE THINGS I MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL SCHOOLS MAKING SURE THE CURRICULUM TELLS THE HISTORY AND IS, YOU KNOW, AN ANTI-RACIST CURRICULUM, THAT WE CREATE DIVERSE, INCLUSIVE LEARNING ENVIRONMENTS FOR OUR BLACK STUDENTS AND OTHER STUDENTS OF COLOR, BECAUSE THAT'S THE OTHER ISSUE.

ONCE THEY GET THERE, THEY ARE OFTEN FEELING ISOLATED AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH MICROAGGRESSIONS, BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S THE OBLIGATION OF ACADEMIC MEDICAL INSTITUTIONS, HOSPITALS, AND EVEN, YOU KNOW, LOCAL, STATE GOVERNMENTS TO REALLY INVEST IN THE PIPELINE OF BLACK PHYSICIANS, STARTING FROM HIGH SCHOOL, STARTING FROM KINDERGARTEN, IN TERMS OF MENTORING, SPONSORING, EVEN FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

I TALK ABOUT THIS IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" PIECE ABOUT BEING REALLY INTENTIONAL ABOUT ADDRESSING THE LACK OF GENERATIONAL WEALTH IN BLACK COMMUNITIES, TO ENSURE WE HAVE ACCESS TO THESE OPPORTUNITIES.

I WOULD ALSO LOVE FOR POLICYMAKERS TO READ THIS BOOK AND UNDERSTAND THAT HEALTH IS IN ALL POLICIES, SO, I DO THINK THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE UNITED STATES AND AS YOU MENTIONED, WE HAVE SOME OF THE WORTH HEALTH OUTCOMES, NOT JUST FOR BLACK PEOPLE, EVERYBODY.

LIFE EXPECTANCY OVERALL IS GOING DOWN, AND WE SPEND THE MOST ON HEALTH CARE.

AND SO, THERE ARE SOME BASIC THINGS, MAKING SURE THAT EVERYONE HAS HEALTH INSURANCE.

WE KNOW PEOPLE ARE HEALTHIER, PEOPLE DO BETTER.

WHEN WE LOOK AT HOUSING, EDUCATION, EMPLOYMENT, THERE ARE WAYS THAT WE CAN REALLY MAKE PEOPLE HEALTHIER BY INVESTING IN POLICIES IN THOSE AREAS, AS WELL.

>> YOUR BOOK ARRIVES AT A TIME WHEN YOU HAVE SOME INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS WHO ARE VERY AGGRESSIVELY PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE KIND OF HISTORY, HIDDEN HISTORY THAT YOU'VE UNCOVERED, AND REMEDIES THAT YOU RECOMMEND.

GIVEN THAT YOU'VE GOT THIS VERY HOSTILE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, EVEN TO KNOWING THESE THINGS, I'M JUST CURIOUS IN HOW YOU FEEL THAT CAN BE OVERCOME, WHAT WOULD OVERCOME THAT?

>> I KNOW WE'RE IN VERY DIFFICULT TIMES, LIKE, EVEN THE RECENT SCOTUS DECISION, I FEAR THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A SIMILAR RIPPLE EFFECTS ACT THE FLEXNER REPORT.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE REALLY SMART, INNOVATIVE.

MEDICAL SCHOOLS HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT ARE THE WORKAROUNDS, IN TERMS OF ADDRESSING THE SCOTUS DECISION.

SOME MEDICAL SCHOOLS ARE SAYING, WE'RE JUST GOING TO LOOK AT CLASS, I SAY THAT'S NOT ENOUGH, BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE ROOTS OF RACISM.

I DO THINK WE HAVE TO ORGANIZE, I THINK WE HAVE TO WORK WITH OUR POLICYMAKERS AND LEGAL FOLKS TO COME UP WITH REALLY SMART WAYS TO COUNTERACT THIS, BUT I KNOW IT'S GOING TO BE, DEFINITELY GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE.

I TRY TO STAY POSITIVE, BUT I'M CONCERNED.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, I HAVE TO ASK, YOUR MOM, SUCH A PIONEER, YOU LOST HER WHEN YOU WERE ONLY 19 YEARS OLD.

SHE -- SHE ACCOMPLISHED SO MUCH IN HER SHORT TIME HERE ON EARTH.

SHE WAS ONLY 47.

BUT IF SHE WERE HERE TODAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK HER MESSAGE WOULD BE?

>> OH, WOW.

WELL, I THINK SHE'D BE VERY PROUD OF ME.

WHICH IS -- YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS WANT THAT FROM HER.

BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT SHE HAD THIS VISION OF, YOU KNOW, THE WORK THAT WE NEED TO DO ON BEHALF OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

I THINK SHE WOULD BE ALONGSIDE ME, BEING A HEALTH EQUITY ADVOCATE.

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ME TO GIVE MY MOTHER A PLATFORM, BECAUSE SOME OF THESE IDEAS, YOU KNOW, THE LOCAL HEALTH FAIRS SHE WAS HAVING, ALL OF THAT IS WHAT WE NOW CALL HEALTH EQUITY.

SHE WOULD BE WORKING TO ADVANCE A LOT OF THE EFFORTS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT TODAY.

>> DR. UCHE BLACKSTOCK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, A GLOWING NIGHT AT THE GRAMMYS.

THIS YEARS AWARDS WERE DOMINATED BY FEMALE ARTISTS, WITH MAJOR WINS FROM TAYLOR SWIFT, MILEY CYRUS AND MORE.

THE EVENING ALSO FEATURED SOME REMARKABLE RETURNS.

TRACY CHAPMAN DUETTING HER 1989 HIT "FAST CAR KWTSZ AND 80-YEAR-OLD LEGEND JONI MITCHELL BRINGING GUESTS TO TEARS WITH A STUNNING RENDITION OF HER SONG "BOTH SIDES NOW."

HAVE A LISTEN.

♪ SO MANY THINGS I WOULD HAVE DONE ♪ ♪ BUT CLOUDS GOT IN MY WAY ♪ >> THAT WAS MITCHELL'S FIRST EVER PERFORMANCE AT THE GRAMMYS IN HER EXTRAORDINARY 56-YEAR CAREER.

AND ALSO A RARE PUBLIC OUTING SINCE SHE SUFFERED A BRAIN ANEURYSM IN 2015.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

♪♪ ♪♪