Alex Honnold’s 4,000-ft. Climb in the Name of Climate Change

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: Turning now to a feat of skill and bravery in the name of science. You may recognize climber Alex Honnold, from the Oscar winning documentary Free Solo, when he became the first person to scale El Capitan in Yosemite National Park without any ropes. Now, in a new National Geographic series, Arctic Ascent, he sets his sights even higher on a 4,000-foot sea cliff in Greenland. This time, he’s got ropes, but he’s also got the climate on his mind. And he’s joined by a team of scientists headed up by glaciologist, Heidi Sevestre. Hari Sreenivasan speaks to them both about what they discovered.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARI SREENIVASAN, HOST, AMANPOUR AND COMPANY: Expedition leader Alex Honnold and glaciologists Heidi Sevestre, thank you both for joining us. Alex, let me start with you. Our viewers might remember you stopped by our studios a few years ago, when you were out talking about Free Solo, a movie that catalogued and excruciating and anxiety inducing detail your ascent of El Capitan, one of the most famous rock faces in the United States. This is a film that does catalog you taking on an ascent in Greenland. But it seems like there was more to it than interested you than just the rock climbing. Why did you do this?

HONNOLD: So, this expedition was much broader in scope and in purpose. And we were in a remote part of Eastern Greenland, we were there doing science with Heidi, who’s running many different projects along our journey. And mostly, we were just exploring this incredible landscape and sort of telling a story about why Greenland and why the Arctic is so important for humanity. The first picture I saw in the course lag, it looks like the scariest wall I’ve ever seen. We have no idea what the rock will be like. So, we’ve asked to the best climbers in the world to join me. And we have the right team in place to do meaningful research as we go climate.

HEIDI SEVESTRE, GLACIOLOGIST: No one has been here for almost two decades. Because it’s really one of the most dangerous environments on Earth.

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, tell, tell our audience, what is the consequence of the melting that is happening in the Arctic and in Greenland.

SEVESTRE: You think you the Arctic is warming three to four times faster than the rest of the world. And we’re seeing the impacts of climate change day in day out in that region. When you think of the Arctic, you have to understand that there is this giant island of Greenland that is mostly covered by ice. If this ice were to melt away, it will increase the levels globally by up to 24 feet. So, our future is directly connected to the health of the Arctic and to the health of the Greenland ice sheet.

SREENIVASAN: Alex, you have been interested in environment and protecting it and thinking about climate change for quite some time now. When you started out on this track, even just to get to the face that you were going to climb. What did you notice?

HONNOLD: Well, to be honest, it for me is as — as a layperson, as a non- scientist, I just noticed incredible wagers, incredible mountains, incredible scenery. And that’s part of the wonder of Greenland is that it is almost like a fantasy landscape, it’s just incredible. I mean everything the scale is so vast. And so, I think from — from a lay perspective, it’s just amazing. It’s beautiful. And I think that’s a big part of what you see in that show is just the incredible beauty of the landscape. But then I think it’s through the science that Heidi is doing that you can kind of see how quickly that landscape is changing. You know, for me, it’s my first time going into a place like that. And so, it just looks amazing. But the more you know about it, and the more you understand it, the more concerning it can be. When comes to climate change, Greenland is one of the most important places on the planet. It’s gotten about five and a half degrees warmer over the last 40 years. More and more of its ice is melting, raising the sea level around the world. In the quarterback is extremely remote. And scientists rarely have an opportunity to study the area around it.

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, most of the places that this expedition went to are places that humans don’t get a chance to walk much less take scientific observations of. So give us an idea of the range of measurements that you were taking on really the approach to where Alex and his team were going to climb?

SEVESTRE: Joining this expedition was really a dream come true for a scientist because this is one of the least explored, least studied parts of Greenland. We went east Greenland in this fjord of legends called Scoresby Sound. And for six weeks, actually, we traversed a big part of this short crossing glaciers, ice caps, collecting measurements in the very deep fjord installing instruments on these massive cliffs. And in total, we worked with 12 different research institutes on this expedition, including NASA. And we performed 18 different research protocols from going into glaciers, collecting rock cores, measuring ice thickness and water temperature. This was key for the research community. And I’m really glad to see how much data we were able to bring back and share with these different research institutions.

SREENIVASAN: I know it takes a while for scientists to pour over that data and come to some conclusions. But are there examples of things that you have found during this expedition that are already kind of advancing what we understand about glaciers or about permafrost that’s happening there?

SEVESTRE: Yes, absolutely. Science takes time. And it will probably take another couple of years to get all the results from this expedition. We already have some preliminary results, especially regarding the instruments that we launched for NASA in the water, in the field. So, this instrument is called FLOAT. And we launched it for a project called Oceans, Melting Greenland. And the FLOAT was basically going up and down the water column measuring water temperature and water salinity. And what this robot was able to tell us is that the field is definitely getting warmer. This is not good news, because if the water around the periphery of the ice sheet is warming up, it means that they can eat away at the ice around the ice sheet and really catalyze (INAUDIBLE) and catalyze sea level rise around the world.

SREENIVASAN: Alex, let’s start talking a little bit about this climb. I mean when you showed the scale of say the Empire State Building, El Cap which is already enormous which you ascended without any ropes. This rock, this sea cliff is a monster it’s even bigger. When you came up to it on the boat and kind of saw it for the first time, what, what went through your mind?

HONNOLD: I’m not sure, Heidi and I both smile, because we both remember seeing it from the boat for the first time when we all thought, oh no, it looked too big and it looked too daunting and I looked it looked very challenging. But, but, you know, then we set to work and started, started chipping away at it so to speak like started climbing and making progress and ultimately we were able to find that. But it is a very intimidating wall. It’s very big and it looks — it looks almost evil. Just the way the swirls on the rock are like it looks very daunting. If we managed to climb in (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rock, rock, rock.

(CROSSTALK)

HONNOLD: It’ll be the biggest versus time we’ve ever done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just don’t know what we’ll face up there. Oh my, so scary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was definitely hoping that like conditions were going to improve. And they have definitely not (INAUDIBLE).

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, one of the things that we noticed was amount of ice falling on the climbers which was an incredibly significant threat and a danger and there was one point where Alex even gets cut on his nose by a piece of falling ice. But I wonder, you know, aside from Greenland are we seeing this kind of climate change impacts in other rock faces, other mountains around the planet, as the temperatures warm up?

SEVESTRE: Yes, definitely. And I’m sure Alex has lots of stories to tell about how climate change is impacting the safety of these mountains. But you know, I come from the French Alps. And in the French Alps, we’re starting to see more and more rock falls, they’re more frequent, they’re bigger and bigger every year, because we have what we call permafrost in these high mountains. And permafrost is like a glue that keeps these mountains together. Unfortunately, it is going deeper and deeper every year. And so, these mountains are becoming increasingly dangerous.

SREENIVASAN: Alex, what are some examples that you have seen of how climate change might be affecting rock faces that you might have climbed earlier in your life? And how situations have changed and the places that you go to?

HONNOLD: Yes, I mean, I mean, Heidi has just as many example that we both have seen so much of this in the natural world. But I mean, as a climber, you’ve probably noticed it the most with the approaches in and out of the mountains. So, the way you hike into the mountains and the way you navigate glaciers. Just in the few seasons that I’ve climbed in Patagonia, and Southern Argentina, I’ve seen some of the glaciers recede far enough. And now you hike into the mountains on a whole different side of the valley, like you used to hike on the south, and now you hike on the north, because the glacier has moved so much to the zoo’s giant lake that you can’t really get around, since you know (INAUDIBLE). And so, so things like that. You know, landscapes that look like they should be permanent, are in fact changing incredibly quickly. And that’s pretty sobering. Because normally, when you go into mountains like that, you’re struck by the sort of human insignificant theory, think how small you are, and how big and permanent those mountains are. And in this case, you go there two years in a row, and you see the mountains have actually changed even more than we have, you know, and that’s a very scary thing to see.

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, put that in perspective for us, when you — when we look at core samples, and you do your drilling, and you find almost a, you know, a history book of what’s been happening to a specific piece of land, how conclusive is the human impact, whether it’s ice core or rock core, and put in perspective, that change because these things have been literally here forever compared to us and our impacts?

SEVESTRE: Absolutely, these landscapes have so many stories to tell whether it’s the rock or the ice, we can really go super far back in time by analyzing these different materials. And, you know, the climate has always changed. Absolutely. But the rate of change we’re seeing at the moment is absolutely unprecedented. And it is without a shadow of a doubt, that the current changing climate we’re all experiencing is directly connected to the burning of fossil fuels, to deforestation, basically, to human activities. And it is really what scares us the scientists how quickly things are changing, because it’s really pushing our capacities of adaptation to their very limits. So, this is why we need more data from these places, to be able to prepare for future that we’re trying to see in these rocks and in the size.

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, there’s a scene in the film where you basically just dig a hole and Alex ticks another one near you. And both of you get into this hole, and you kind of look in between and you see the different layers, this is just almost in a year, it’s worth and there are these lines. Explain what these lines across where and why that’s significant.

SEVESTRE: And that was so magical that I’m glad that I had these super feet, athletes around me helping me to dig these holes in the snow. And Alex was way faster than me. But it is really important actually, to dig these snow pits. Because the deeper you go, the further back in time you can — you can be. And what we saw was a series of ice lenses. And as beautiful as they are, they’re not a good sign. These ice lenses tell us that there were moments during the past few months on this ice cap that is at the periphery of the Greenland ice sheets, moments with melts with rain. And this was highly unexpected, actually, for this part of Greenland that is supposed to be quite cold at this high altitude.

SREENIVASAN: Alex, let’s talk a little bit about how you kind of felt on this climb. Because while doing a Free Solo is a totally different challenge. And it was sort of one part of your life. Here you are years later, taking on a six-week expedition with as lots of things have a very significant amount of risk involved. And I wonder if you approach the preparation differently, if you think about things differently now that you’re married and a dad.

HONNOLD: No, I mean, honestly, this was one of my favorite expeditions that I’ve ever been on. And I go on climbing trips every year. I mean frequent only during expeditions similar to this, but just, you know, with different objectives. And this was one of my favorite trips just because it had the right combination of a great team, a great purpose, great objectives, you know, the climbing was inspiring enough for me to be excited to go there. But then the science that we were doing, the team that we were doing, with everything else about the trip, also just made the whole thing seem totally worthwhile to me, in a way that kind of put it beyond a normal climate objective. And normally, you’re just climbing for yourself. But in this case, you know, I felt like we were really doing something useful, and it made the whole trip feel a lot more meaningful.

SREENIVASAN: Alex, I also wonder there’s a team member of yours, Mike, and you kind of have a disagreement, you have a heart to heart and the cameras are just well enough positioned to capture some of that. What went through your mind when you look back at that? His — his concern was, you know, I don’t feel that sincerely comfortable. And I kind of don’t feel heard. And, again, from a viewer’s perspective, you’re like, I wonder if they’re at either misaligned here?

HONNOLD: You know, so honestly, I think the filmmakers did a great job showing the entire expedition. But the reality is that we had conversations like that, and much more than you see on camera. I mean, we were constantly talking about risk, we’re constantly talking about how to mitigate risk and manage and like whether or not we feel comfortable, whether or not we feel safe. So, you certainly see glimpses of it in the film. But the reality is, we were talking about it all the time, because we all want to come home safely. But one of the things that isn’t shown in the film is that, you know, after that conversation, Mike, he decided that he didn’t want to participate in the climb on the face. But instead, what he did was guide the camera crew up the backside of the mountain so that they could film it, because he is basically a professional mountain guide, and a filmmaker himself. And so, part of what isn’t said in that whole exchange, is that he was deciding to use his unique set of skills in a different way to help the team in a way that he felt was safer, but still incredibly useful.

SREENIVASAN: Heidi, what’s it like, really beginning your climbing experience with world class experts on a, you know, in a region that nobody’s ever really climbed before?

SEVESTRE: I’ll be honest, I really didn’t want to do any climbing (INAUDIBLE), at least as little as possible. But you know, this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And also, you know, I felt the pressure of the importance of collecting these rock samples on this wall the right way, not that the climbers, were not going to do it the right way. But I really wanted to be there to see it happening. And luckily, you know, they trusted me, they thought that by giving me the right training, I would be able to do it. And it was it was equally magical and terrifying at the same time. But I’m so glad that we were able to collect these records along the way, you know, this was a big mission complete for me.

SREENIVASAN: So, Alex, how was she?

HONNOLD: Oh, she was great. Heidi, Heidi did fine. I mean, none of us had any doubt that she would, she would make it up the wall just fine and be totally safe. But as she was just alluding to the science, I found that consistently throughout the expedition, it was harder to do the scientific experience, it was harder to collect data than I may be expected. Because a lot of the things, a lot of the protocols are just like, oh, drill a sample into the rock. But then it turns out, it’s really hard. And it’s hard to line up the trail properly, it’s hard to manage the batteries. Like everything was more challenging than we expected. And so, I think it was actually incredibly helpful to have Heidi overseeing everything. Like there’s no chance that we could have done any of the science without Heidi on the team, because it just turned out that it was all too difficult for us.

SREENIVASAN: Is there, Alex, a moment that gave you pause on this in the middle of this face? Were you kind of making some of the final ascent?

HONNOLD: A little bit, I mean, I think our final day kind of in record lag, which is kind of the highlight of the show, Hazel and I are climbing the final head wall of this giant mountain. There was definitely a lot of uncertainty around how we could do it like, physically where we should navigate on the wall and what route we should choose. Because I mean, it really that’s the challenge of doing a first ascent because nobody’s been there. So, you don’t really know which way to go. And we definitely both felt very uncomfortable the whole time. You know, like there was a lot of tension around how to — how to weave our way off the wall. But there was no seriously dramatic moment, but it was more like a tension that you carry the entire day as you slowly work your way up. And we both felt incredible relief on demand for the job. We were we were genuinely very excited to make the job.

SREENIVASAN: And Heidi, when did you figure out or hear that they actually pulled it off?

SEVESTRE: You know, we had radios from base camp. And we hear the good news. And yes, the relief was also enormous at base camp. We were so anxious. We were really tense the whole time. And we’ve felt — you know, we felt so proud actually of what you guys had achieved. So again, your massive congratulations.

SREENIVASAN: Glaciologist Dr. Heidi Sevestre and climber and expedition leader Alex Honnold, thank you both.

SEVESTRE: Thank you.

HONNOLD: My pleasure.