Special Rep. Pritzker Says U.S. Needs to Aid Ukraine

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And now, fresh off the success of pushing the foreign aid bill through the Senate, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer has been in Ukraine. He says, without the aid, the Ukrainians are facing losses for the first time in a long time, and warns what could happen if this continues, not just to Ukraine, but also to the West. It is a warning echoed by our next guest, Penny Pritzker, the former commerce secretary who last year took on the role of U.S. special representative for Ukraine’s economic recovery. And she joins Michel Martin now to discuss what continued U.S. support means for the future of this country and how to rebuild this nation’s economy in the middle of war.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Penny Pritzker, thank you so much for talking with us today.

PENNY PRITZKER, U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE’S ECONOMIC RECOVERY: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you.

MARTIN: I just wanted to start by asking, you know, you have a special relationship with Ukraine. Do you mind sharing that?

PRITZKER: Well, thank you for asking. My great grandfather was the immigrant in our family who came to the United States 140 years ago from just outside of Kyiv. His family had a grain store there that was ransacked by the Russians and their lives were in danger and they were forced to leave and come to the United States. And there he was able to educate himself and to build a business and grow a family. And I’m a, you know, descendant of his. And so, Ukraine has always held a very special place in my heart. And particularly seeing what the Russians are again doing to Ukraine, it strikes a chord with me.

MARTIN: You have been serving as U.S. special representative for Ukraine’s Economic Recovery. You began serving in September of 2023. I’m not sure that everybody knows that this position exists. So, for those who are just becoming aware of this, what are your responsibilities? What have you been tasked with doing?

PRITZKER: So, President Biden asked me to work across the U.S. government to work with our allies, to work with the Ukrainians, to work with the private sector to try and help them, the Ukrainians, plot a path forward for economic recovery. And there’s a fundamental belief behind all this, which is that you have to pursue recovery at the same time as you’re pursuing the war. You can’t let the economy just fall apart. And what’s been extraordinary about the Ukrainians is their economy is alive, it’s active, it’s resilient. Their GDP grew 5 percent last year, investment grew 17 percent, tax revenues in January were up 25 percent, and inflation’s down. And so, it’s a vibrant place. 60 percent of the country is not been touched by war. And so, it’s important to keep that functioning at the same time as the country is prosecuting a fight against Putin.

MARTIN: So, after Russia invaded Ukraine in February of 2022, as I understand it, Ukraine’s GDP shrank by 29 percent. And — but as you’ve just told us, in 2023, its GDP, gross domestic product, grew almost 5 percent. I mean, outperforming, actually, initial forecast that actually some economies that are not at war. How do you explain that?

PRITZKER: Well, it’s a couple of things, and some of it is very much a result of the partnership with the United States as well as with Europe. First of all, opening up the Black Sea corridor again, really, really critical. And if you remember last fall, Russia walked away from the Black Sea Initiative, which was allowed grain to get out to the rest of the world. Much needed grain out to the rest of the world. We had to get that corridor — we developed a new corridor. It had to be demined. It had to get up and operating again. That’s a big — that’s essential to tax revenue coming into the Ukrainian government. The other thing is the tech sector. The tech sector has grown over 7 percent over the last 18 months or so. And the Ukrainian talent, and I hear it from all kinds of manufacturers and tech companies, in fact, I was with the CEO of BMW last week, was telling me the harnesses that run — are essential to running a BMW car are made in Western Ukraine. He said, I cannot find that skilled labor anywhere else in the world. And so, there is a talent base there and a resilience that is in the people that is really extraordinary. You see it on the battlefield and you certainly see it in manufacturing or in agriculture and in other parts of the economy.

MARTIN: Would you just say a bit more about Ukraine’s role in the world economy? I mean, people are used to thinking of it as sort of the breadbasket of, you know, that part of the world. But could you just say more about what that actually means?

PRITZKER: Sure, first of all, Ukraine — much of Ukraine’s grain goes to the Global South. It’s important to feeding Africa and other parts in the Southern Hemisphere. And if you think about one of the causes of migration around the world is lack of food, there’s a direct correlation between their ability to produce grain, get it out to the rest of the marketplace and other issues that are facing the world around migration and refugees and things like that. The other thing is steel. Ukraine has an enormous reservoir of recyclable steel that can be turned into new products. And in fact, one thinks of recyclable steel and modern steelmaking as a raw material, and they have the largest inventory in the world. It’s important they get their steel out to the rest of the world as well. So, Ukraine — and that’s — and another factor is Ukraine is also integrated its energy system with Europe. So, it has the capacity to contribute to European energy, which is really critical, you know, as Europe has weaned itself off of Russian gas.

MARTIN: You’ve also said that this isn’t just a war of military aggression, it’s also an economic war. But why do you say that? I guess a lot of people are sort of wondering what the motivation has really been. Is it this kind of massive ego project of the Russian president? Is it sort of, you know, kind of feeds his sort of his kind of quest to restore the glory of the Russian empire, or is it to sort of bring Ukraine to its knees because they have succeeded in all these ways in which — you know, in which Russia has not? I mean, I’m just like — like what do you think it’s about?

PRITZKER: I think it’s about everything you just listed. I think that this is an ego project of Putin’s. I think it is about recreating the Russian empire. I think this is about taunting the West. This is about Vladimir Putin’s creation of what is his place in history. And it’s horrific, just horrific. And I want to focus on something that I think is really important. Right now, as we speak, the situation in Ukraine is desperate. We are foot dragging on our military and economic aid. We are helping Putin right now by not arming and not supporting Ukraine. The Europeans have passed economic support, but they don’t have the military equipment to send or the munitions to send to Ukraine. We do. And the fact that we’re not doing, it makes no sense to me. One can argue on the — you know, this is about our own security. That makes no sense. We should be defending Ukraine because we don’t want to end up with NATO in a war with Putin, which will bring, you know, Article 5 into play. But what also doesn’t make sense to me is the money that is spent on military equipment being sent to Ukraine is actually being spent in the United States. We send our older versions of equipment and munitions to the Ukrainians. They upgrade them. And we produce new equipment. New HIMARS, new Bradley’s, new howitzers made in Minnesota, made in Alabama, made in New Jersey. Though that production gets — that inventory gets replenished and that production occurs here in the United States. So, I do not understand why we’re dragging our feet. It makes no sense to me at all.

MARTIN: Have you had a chance to discuss this with some of the lawmakers who are dragging their feet? One of their arguments is, is that Ukraine is not showing sufficient success on the battlefield that they feel that the investment is going to pay off.

PRITZKER: I think it’s a misperception, actually, that the Ukrainians have not been successful. They’ve taken 50 percent of their territory. They’ve liberated it back from the Russians. 315,000 Russians have been killed or captured during this war. That is 87 percent of the size of the Russian prewar army. Two-thirds of the Russian military equipment has been damaged or destroyed. And Ukraine, they’ve gone from having nine drone companies to over 200. Producing drones on their own. We’re also learning about what it is to prosecute a war — a drone war. That is the war of the future. So, I think there — I think it’s a mistake to think that Ukraine is failing. And it’s a mistake to think that our efforts and our dollars and our equipment is being wasted.

MARTIN: This week, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba told my colleague, Christiane Amanpour, that his country’s expanding Ukraine’s capacity to build its own weapons and to make it less dependent on outside funding. Is this something that the U.S. should be supporting?

PRITZKER: Absolutely. And in fact, that’s one of the things that my effort is supporting and very active in. We’re working closely with our defense industry here in the United States, as well as the Defense Department to expedite some of that production capability. It’s extremely important. And it makes perfect sense, because it’s an — Ukraine used to be a defense exporter to Europe prior to the war. It will be so again as Europe will — is rearming itself. But now, it needs the production for its own defense. And frankly, they’re defending us. They’re defending Europe.

MARTIN: So, tell me what else you’re working on. What are some of the other avenues that you’re pursuing as part of this project as a U.S. special representative into aid and Ukraine’s recovery? What are you spending your day on?

PRITZKER: So, the sectors of the economy that we’ve been focused on are around agriculture, how to increase production and get the product out to the world market, which needs it. It — defense industry, which I’ve talked about, there’s various projects that we’re working on. Minerals and mining and steel, helping them get that production back up and operating tech. As I’ve talked about, there’s enormous demand for tech and the individuals and that capability. And then, of course, there’s logistics and transportation. The other part of our work is really focused on what I call foundational issues. There are things that need to be true besides security in order for recovery to occur and also to minimize the time from when there’s the end of the war and the economy is hitting its full velocity, if you will. And those are things like insurance. Those are things like you know, the ability. What is the world going to do about seized Russian sovereign assets? What are we doing about reforms within country and corruption? There’s an enormous effort that we have going with — throughout the State Department and with our ambassador and post on making sure that Ukraine is adopting the reforms necessary, not just to trade with the United States, but to become part of the European Union.

MARTIN: And one of the arguments there and one of the impediments there, you know, it’s been said, you know, over and over again is corruption. That is one of the reasons why the E.U. has not rushed to allow Ukraine to join. And the fact is that reconstruction efforts in other parts of the world have not been as successful as a lot of people would like, as certainly the citizens of these countries would have liked, because of corruption. I mean, I’m thinking — obviously, I’m thinking of Afghanistan, I’m thinking about Iraq, I’m thinking about Haiti. And they’re still enormous suffering in these places. What can you do to assure that this doesn’t —

PRITZKER: There’s a lot to do —

MARTIN: You know what I mean, that history doesn’t repeat itself here?

PRITZKER: There’s a lot to do. So, for example, on my last trip to Ukraine, I brought three American CEOs, one from an AG company, one from a financial services company, and one from an insurance company. And we sat with all the leadership of the Rada. Every single party in the Rada, which is their parliament, was represented. And we — they heard from the CEOs what the cost is and what the impediments are to further investment. The Rada is very motivated. They told us there and they anticipate passing something like 250 different pieces of legislation this year. President Zelenskyy and his leadership team, Prime Minister Shmyhal, they’re very focused on addressing then — not just having the laws, but then implementing the laws. It is a cultural change. The thing that gives me hope is — and why can this be different, is that when you — the polling of Ukrainians, which is extensive, I think it’s something like 80 plus percent want to be part of Europe. They see themselves as Europeans, they see ourselves as being able to participate in the kind of economic growth that is possible if they’re part of the EU. They understand what’s at stake. The government also recognizes in Ukraine that if don’t clean up their act, there isn’t going to be more funding, there is going to be support from either Europe, Japan, United States, or anyone else. So, everyone has woken up to the fact that this is a must-do undertaking and is really putting their shoulder to this.

MARTIN: Going back to the experience that you’ve had as a member of a prior, sort of, Democratic administration, what’s it like now? Are people interested in what you have to say?

PRITZKER: Yes, they are. And I’ll just say that vote that occurred in the Senate, 70 to 29, I think that’s a reflection of the kind of the bipartisan support that exists in the American people that also exists in the House. And if, you know, the speaker can get this bill to the floor, he can, there’s no reason, it could happen today, it could happen tomorrow, you know, there’s enormous progress that can be made. And when I talk to members of the House and the Senate about not only the potential and the war, but also the potentially economically, they actually get quite excited, because for very little dollars we can really help jump start their economy and help them become more self -sufficient. And it’s — to me, I have found that there is receptivity. It’s not 100 percent. We all know that. But there’s a bipartisan majority sufficient to pass this legislation, and it needs to get done. And I don’t understand the idea of waiting such that Ukraine is forced to withdraw from Avdiivka. I mean, that makes no sense. They were rationing ammunitions. Why are they doing that? They’re doing because we’re not supporting them. That is terrible.

MARTIN: Obviously, there’s been a lot of focus on the military aid that the Ukrainians desperately want and need, which the administration — the Biden administration desperately wants them to have, but which as we’ve been discussing, some members, particularly in the House, seem sort of reluctant to give. What if that doesn’t happen? And I’m focusing specifically on your role in trying to promote and assist the economic recovery. What if that doesn’t happen. Is there a plan B?

PRITZKER: This has got to happen, there can’t be a plan B. There’s more at stake than just Ukraine’s sovereignty. What’s at stake is stability in the world. And we — people need to embrace that. Our Congress — our members of our House understand — they understand it. I think they’re being driven by, you know, politics. And at some point, you have to stand up and be counted and recognize that doing the right thing is important, not just for Ukraine, not for Europe, this is about U.S. leadership in the world. Our credibility is on the line. We have told the Ukrainians, we have the told world that we will stand with Ukraine. And now, we’re waffling. It makes no sense to me.

MARTIN: Madam Secretary Penny Pritzker, thank you so much for talking with us today.

PRITZKER: Thank you very much.