Is There Selective Outrage With Who Dies in the Israel/Gaza Conflict?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Next, we return to our top story. The IDF continues to carry out its war in Gaza, and the Health Ministry there says more than 33,000 have been killed since October 7^th.  While the Israeli military is facing growing international warnings against its planned assault on Rafah, author and global affairs journalist Emily Tamkin has been writing about this war for online magazine ‘Slate.’ And her most recent article explores the reaction to the death of the World Central Kitchen aid workers. She joins Michel Martin to discuss why she believes this story has provoked more worldwide condemnation than before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks Christiane. Emily Tamkin, thank you so much for talking with us once again.

EMILY TAMKIN, JOURNALIST, GLOBAL AFFAIRS: Of course. Thank you for having me.

MARTIN: You wrote a piece for Slate. It’s titled, “Why the World Central Kitchen Aid Workers’ Deaths Broke Through the Horror of This War.” The first thing I wanna ask you is what convinces you that it did break through?

TAMKIN: Right. It’s a great question. I think what I was trying to get at in the piece is that the reaction to these deaths was so – the reaction was so dramatic and so full of outrage in a way that we haven’t really seen so far in the six months since October 7th. And there have been, you know, Israel has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza. And it’s not that people haven’t expressed shock and horror and outrage to all of that, but the seven deaths from, of WCK really, you know, you had President Biden making a statement of outrage. You have secretary of State Antony Blinken saying that US policy will change if Israel doesn’t change course. You have outrage from Britain and from Australia. And I was sort of, I was interested in the perfect storm of conditions that got this reaction from leaders. And to your point, I also wanted to make clear that statements of outrage and even of apology from Israel and from the IDF, which is quite rare, that that doesn’t necessarily mean that it has broken through the horror. Right. That that doesn’t actually mean that we are going to see policy change.

MARTIN: Well, so just back up for a second, and when you heard what happened, do you remember how you reacted?

TAMKIN: I was and am shocked by this, but it’s not, it’s also not surprising. And what I mean by that, and I don’t in any way want to downplay the horror of seven aid workers being killed. You know, it’s horrific. These are people who are trying to distribute food to those in desperate need. But on the other hand, there have already been, there had already been roughly 190 other aid workers killed over the course of this war, again, in addition to tens of thousands of Palestinians. And so the conditions in which this war is being carried out, the way in which this war is being carried out, did not suggest to me that, you know, that Jose Andres’s team would be able to indefinitely, safely provide food to those in need.

MARTIN: And just for people who aren’t aware, Jose Andres is the founder of World Central Kitchen. He’s, you know, I’m in the Washington DC area, very well known. First he was very well known as a restaurateur, but then he’s obviously become, you know, a much bigger figure than that. Well, let’s talk about what struck you first, and then well, let’s talk about why you think it has caused the reaction that it has caused.

TAMKIN: A few hours before I got news of the attack, my dad and I were having a conversation and he brought up Jose Andres and the aid workers and said, This is so amazing. They’re able to get this aid in. They’re able to provide this, you know, he’s such a hero. And so my first, to be honest, my first reaction was we were just talking about this. And the reason I mentioned this is that I think that that’s the kind of salience that Jose Andres and World Central Kitchen have, which is part of why you got an i an apology from the IDF, which is part of why you got outrage from the Biden White House, because he’s just familiar to people in a way that other nonprofits were not, and are not.

MARTIN: So you identify a couple of factors that you think are at play here. One is race. Talk about that.

TAMKIN: Absolutely. I think, look, and I, again, I don’t, I don’t want to say that every person who was shocked and outraged by this and wasn’t before is an outright racist. But I do think that there is, at minimum, an internalized prejudice about who we expect to die. Right. And when you expect people to die, you’re also accepting their deaths. And I do think there’s a level of people accepting Palestinian death in a way that they don’t, you know, British or Australian or Canadian or American. So there were seven workers who were killed. One of them was Palestinian, the other six were, were not. And Amira Hass in Haaretz wrote basically saying that the massive headache that Israel is facing now, they would not have had to face, had all seven been Palestinian. And I think that’s fair. And I think the way we know that that’s fair is that we haven’t seen this kind of outrage until now. The other two are, we already sort of touched on Jose Andre as a celebrity. I really think it’s important to stress that it’s not just that he is globally famous, although he is. You mentioned that you’re in the DC area. I am as well. He’s so well known here in particular. And I think, you know, when the restaurant that you go to after work for drinks is owned by the person who is getting on, who’s doing a Reuters interview and saying they systematically are killing aid workers, like that hits, that cuts through in a way that other deaths perhaps don’t. And I think the final, the final reason that I identified, and this is the hardest to articulate and also to wrap my own mind around, is that these people were killed for doing something that is as inoffensive as giving food to those who are starving. You know, crisis group, the International Crisis Group, came out with a report just days ago saying that the north of Gaza is on the brink of famine. Should Israel push further into the South, it will be the case there as well. Starvation, if it does not kill you, the effects of it for children are felt throughout the course of their lives. It affects their development. It affects, you know, every, like, mentally, physically, and there’s you know, to say nothing of it being collective punishment to say nothing of how the, you know, sort of the inherit human right that people have to nourishment, like that’s what was being provided by these aid workers, and that’s why they were killed because they were trying to provide that. I think that mere fact sort of got through to people with this, with these strikes.

MARTIN: Do you think it’s in part it’s just human nature to be more concerned about people that you think you know, or that you actually know than about people you don’t.

TAMKIN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, I think it’s, I think it’s human nature and it’s understandable. And it’s also something where it is my hope that we can take that, sort of take that moment of connection and recognition – and it’s hard to do this, I understand it’s hard to do this – but to take that moment of connection and recognition and extend it to these other people who we haven’t encountered. And I think that what’s hard to wrap your mind around, or for me at least, is that every one of those crisis group had it at 33,000 people, evry one of those 33,000 people who have, who have been killed so far in Gaza and all of those other 190 something aid workers have people who knew them too.

MARTIN: One of the reasons that you said you also think this could be an inflection point, is that it speaks to incompetence. Because in the initial wake of the October 7th Hamas attack on Southern Israel, the question was, well, how could this happen? I mean, this is supposed to be the best equipped, you know, army intelligence service, you know, in the region. Because you have to know that politically and in every other instance, this would be, as you put it, a headache for the IDF. And so, what role do you think that plays in sort of shifting people’s thinking about, well, wait a minute. They don’t know what they’re doing.

TAMKIN: Right. And I think this is a question both for Israel’s allies and it’s, and their counterparts and other countries, and also for Israeli people themselves, right, who perhaps after October 7th supported, you know, supported the war and wanted to get back at Hamas and wanted to, you know, saw that something had to change. I guess the question is, if, if one, so the IDF has conducted its own internal investigation and said, this was a series of mistakes, this should never have happened. Okay, if that’s true, why were you, why did you strike, multiple times, cars with WCK, you know, symbols on their roofs on a deconflicted route? And, and why have 190 something other aid workers also been killed over the last six months? And I think, you know, we, you know, just as Jose Andres and WCK have resonance for people outside of Israel, I think it’s important to note that, you know, unlike UNRWA where Israel has long suspected Hamas infiltration or cooperation, WCK doesn’t have that reputation in Israel. And in fact, as we said, you know, worked to feed Israel is after October 7th. And I think, I think that perhaps there’s a world in which this, because it’s so high profile, because it’s such an international bru-haha, because it’s, you know, because it’s so clearly understood to be a tragedy that this asks, well, what is the function of this war besides inflicting – can this war as it’s being carried out, do anything but kill many people? And if so, is that a war that we want to stand behind?

MARTIN: Alright. Let me just be clear about what the IDF said. The IDF Chief of Staff issued a rare apology saying, “I want to be very clear, the strike was not carried out with the intention of harming WCK aid workers. It was a mistake that followed a misidentification at night during a war in very complex conditions. It shouldn’t have happened,” unquote. Your thoughts about that?

TAMKIN: I would say two things. The first is that I don’t think any military can conduct its own investigation into itself. I think that’s not something they’re capable of doing, particularly during an ongoing war. And so while I think the rare apology speaks to how salient this event is, and how, you know, the outrage that’s ensued and while I am, you know, just on a human level, glad that it’s been taken seriously, I think that really shouldn’t, for the international community, that can’t be acceptable. And the other thing that, again, I would stress is that these seven deaths were a tragedy, these seven aid workers deaths. These were not the only aid workers who have been killed over the course of this war. So I think a reasonable question is if this should not have happened, what about the other, roughly 190 people who were trying to provide aid who have been killed in the course of this war?

MARTIN: Do you ever wonder about the moral injury to the soldiers and reservists who have been responsible for these kinds of acts? I wonder whether there’s some thought to the moral injury that they are experiencing when they find out that they have killed innocent people who are just trying to offer food to people. I just, I just wonder if anybody talks about that.

TAMKIN: Well, there are, I mean, there is an organization in Israel called Breaking the Silence, which is where people who have served in the military come back and sort of say, you know, it’s sort of, it’s sort of a mea culpa. And I, you know, I think we will have some of that in the wake of this war. I think others will blame Hamas for putting them in this position in the first place. I don’t, I don’t think that we, that we know yet how the military specifically and how it’s, you know, I don’t think how the military specifically will process this. I do – we do know, however, from studies that younger Palestinians and younger Israelis do tend to be more more hardened in their views, particularly Palestinians and Gaza in the West Bank, and Israelis and Israel proper tend to be more hardened in their views and more extreme and see, peace is less of a possibility. And I don’t, you know, I don’t mean to be cynical, but I really don’t see how this war does anything but exacerbate that trend in the short term, at least.

MARTIN: As recognizing that you’re a journalist and an analyst, you’re not a sort of a policymaker, you’re not, you know, an elected person, are there other things as a person who’s been following this closely, what else should happen in your opinion? What else would you like to see happen? What do you think will happen as a consequence of this?

TAMKIN: The reality is that as a human being, I think that to say like, oh, people starve in war, is just unacceptable. And the crisis group report that I mentioned says that if there is not an indefinite ceasefire, there will be mass starvation. And that even short of that ceasefire, there needs to be dramatic change. And much more aid needs to be allowed into Gaza by Israel. There have been some changes like in the wake of this, in the wake of this strike. And I think if those are just sort of, to make people stop looking, and then it goes back to as it was, that’s totally unacceptable. I also do wonder if you know, you have Biden saying that he’s outraged. You have Blinken saying something must change. You have senate de – you have Democrats on the hill, including Nancy Pelosi saying that they would like to see weapons transfers to Israel suspended. I guess, again we were speaking before about, about the Israeli people asking themselves, what is the function of this? You know, the Biden administration has for months now said that they want to see transfer of power in Gaza. They want to see fewer civilian deaths. They want to see more aid led in. They eventually want to see the establishment of a Palestinian state. And I guess my question for them is, if your current policy is not getting you any of those things, then what is the function of the policy? And I think as journalists it is our job to ask that question. Right. You know, if you say, okay, if you don’t let more humanitarian aid in, we’re going to be really upset. Okay and what? And what are you going to do with all of that, all of that upset, all of that outrage. So that is, that’s what I will be watching for in the days and weeks to come.

MARTIN: Before we let you go, do you mind if I ask, how are you? It seems to be a hard moment to decide what is fair. And to honor the suffering that one sees without negating the suffering of others. And I’m just interested, if you don’t mind my asking, how is this for you?

TAMKIN: I think there’s a sense here in the United States that you’re on sort of one or other side of suffering. And it, when you think about like the Israeli hostages who are being held in Gaza, who should not be being held in Gaza, right? Who are, who should not be there, I wanna be very clear about this. They also do not have access to food, right? They are also, they are also under aerial bombardment. And so I think the idea that we’re, that there’s like a winner in suffering is a bit, I think it’s a bit of a false dichotomy that we’ve that some in the American political discourses have presented. And the other thing, you know, I yeah, it’s been, look, I think for all of us reporting on this writing about it, it’s been an intense last six months. I write as a Jewish journalist and I often write in a way that’s critical of choices that the Israeli government has made, or individual Jewish groups, which I think whenever you are assuming an identity and writing about, writing from that perspective, there will be those who also claim that identity, who get quite upset, and perhaps email or, you know, sort of what write whatever on social media, and that’s not always the most pleasant. But I do think that what I’ve returned to is, I’m fine. I’m here in my home in DC right? Like, I’m safe. I have food. And there are, I just think the toll that this has taken on journalists in, you know, journalists in Israel who are trying to hold their own government to account and do the job of journalism and and journalists in Gaza who have been trying to do their jobs under truly unimaginable circumstances, is, is humbling <laugh> to say the very least. And whenever I sort of, you know, find myself start to wallow, that’s what I return to.

MARTIN: Emily Tamkin, thank you so much for speaking with us.

TAMKIN: Thank you.