April 17, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AMID ESCALATION WITH IRAN, GAZA KEEP GETTING BOMBED, ANOTHER ISRAELI STRIKE KILLS AT LEAST 13 PEOPLE.

FORMER IDF INTELLIGENT CHEER JOINS ME.

>>> THEN, I JUST WANT TO GO HOME, IF I DIE, SO BE IT.

CONFUSION THAT ENDED IN BLOODSHED.

REPORTS ON THE CHAOS THAT UNFOLDED AS PALESTINIANS TRIED TO RETURN HOME.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> DAY ONE OF THE FIGHT HAVE BEEN KILLED.

>> THE PRICE OF BEARING WITNESS, THE CPJ SAYS NEARLY 100 JOURNALISTS AND MEDIA WORKERS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

>>> AND -- >> HAMAS BELIEVES IT WAS WORTH IT.

THEIR ARGUMENT IS WE WANTED TO DRAW BACK GLOBAL ATTENTION TO ISRAEL PALESTINE.

WE FELT IT WAS SLIPPING AWAY.

>> WHAT IS HAMAS THINKING NOW?

WE SPEAK ABOUT THE RARE IN-PERSON INTERVIEWS WITH HAMAS LEADERS.

♪♪ >>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT -- THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEYLA AND MICKEY STROUS.

MARK J.BLEGNER.

CHARLES ROSENBLOOM.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TWO REPORTERS -- AFTER SATURDAY NIGHT'S MISSILE AND DRONE BARRAGE AGAINST ISRAEL.

AT AN ARMY DAY PARADE IN TERON -- HE ALSO WARNS, QUOTE, THE SLIGHTEST ATTACK BY ISRAEL ON IRAN WILL BE, QUOTE, DEALT WITH FIERCELY AND SEVERELY.

SO THE REGION'S TWO LARGEST MILITARY POWERS APPEAR TO BE HEADED FOR A CYCLE OF RETALITARY ACTION.

FIRST, AS ISRAEL CONTINUES IT WAR ON GAZA, A STRIKE ON A REFUGEE CAMP ON TUESDAY KILLED AT LEAST 13 PEOPLE, OVER HALF WERE CHILDREN ACCORDING TO HOSPITAL OFFICIALS.

THE LATEST U.N.

FIGURES SHOW ONE CHILD IS INJURED OR DIES EVERY TEN MINUTES THERE.

AND WITH OVER 10,000 WOMEN KILLED, MANY OF WHOM WERE MOTHERS, A STAGGERING 19 CHILDREN WILL HAVE SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

CORRESPONDENT HAS ANOTHER STORY, MORE ON WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND WHEN RUMORS OF BEING ALLOWED BACK HOME TURNED DEADLY.

>> Reporter: THEIR DAY STARTS WITH RARE EXCITEMENT AND JOY.

AFTER MONTHS OF HELL.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RETURNING TO THE HOMES THEY WERE FORCED OUT OF MONTHS AGO.

ON FOOT AND IN CARTS, THOUSANDS OF DISPLACED PALESTINIANS ON THE MOVE AGAIN, SOME WITH THEIR MOST VALUABLE POSSESSIONS.

THEY SAID WE CAN GO BACK HOME TO GAZA CITY TODAY, E MAN SAYS WITH HER SON SHE TOOK TO THE ROAD.

NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THE NEWS CAME FROM.

THERE WAS NO OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE ISRAELI MILITARY THAT CIVILIANS WOULD BE ALLOWED BACK.

NOW FACING A LOOMING ISRAELI OFFENSIVE WHERE THE MAJORITY OF GAZANS HAVE BEEN PUSHED INTO.

PEOPLE HERE SAY THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY HAVE HOMES TO GO BACK TO.

HE HOLDS HIS TINY BROTHER'S HAND AND CARRIES A BAG OF FLOUR.

OUR HOUSE IS GONE.

I'LL LIVE IN A TENT, HE SAYS.

I JUST WANT TO GO HOME.

IF I DIE, SO BE IT.

DEATH HAS BECOME A REALITY THEY HAVE BEEN FORCED TO ACCEPT.

AND ON THIS DAY, THEY'VE HAD TO ACCEPT THAT THERE WILL BE NO GOING HOME.

CROWDS WERE TURNED AWAY.

PANIC AS PEOPLE RUN BACK.

THEY SAY ISRAELI SOLDIERS OPENED FIRE AS YOUNG MEN TRIED CROSSING THE CHECK POINT WITH WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

SEVERAL WERE INJURED.

AMONG THEM, 5-YEAR-OLD SALLY.

SHE WAS IN HER MOTHER'S ARMS WHEN SHE WAS SHOT IN THE HAND.

TWO YOUNG MEN TRIED TO CROSS WITH US, HER MOTHER SAYS.

SOLDIERS STARTED SHOOTING AND FIRING EVERYWHERE.

MY DAUGHTER WAS SO SCARED.

I WAS HOLDING HER, THEN I PUT HER ON THE GROUND TO WALK.

SHE WASN'T RESPONDING.

THEN I SAW ALL THE BLOOD ON MY HANDS.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S NOT COMMENTED ON SALLY'S MILITARY.

THEY SAY THE NORTH REMAINS A WAR ZONE.

SALLY CLINGS ON TO LIFE UNCON, ON THE HOSPITAL FLOOR WITH THE MUFFLED CRIES OF ANOTHER INJURED CHILD NEXT TO HER.

AND AT A HOSPITAL NEARBY, ANOTHER YOUNG BOY BACK FROM A DIFFERENT NIGHTMARE, ONE NO CHILD SHOULD EVER ENDURE.

11-YEAR-OLD WAS OUT GETTING AID FOR HIS FAMILY WHEN HE SAID HE WAS SHOT AND DETAINED FOR TWO WEEKS, TAKEN TO ISRAEL WHERE HE UNDERWENT SURGERY.

STILL IN PAIN AND SHOCK, HE SHOWS THE CAMERA HIS HORRIFIC SCARS.

THE DAY THEY TOOK ME, THE SOLDIER KICKED ME WITH HIS BOOT, HE TELLS HIS MOTHER OVER THE PHONE.

MY HEAD STILL HURTS.

HE KICKED ME WITH THE METAL TIP OF HIS BOOT.

I WAS SHOT IN THE STOMACH LYING ON THE FLOOR.

HE HIT ME WITH NO MERCY.

I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY TO GROW UP TO BE A RESISTANCE FIGHTER AND HIT HIM LIKE HE HIT ME.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S NOT RESPONDED TO SPECIFIC NEGOTIATIONS ON THE ACCOUNT.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN 15 DAYS HE'S HEARING HIS MOTHER'S VOICE.

I'VE MISSED YOU SO MUCH, HE CRIES.

THEY DIDN'T LET ME SEE YOU.

I WISH I HADN'T COME BACK, HE SAYS.

I WISH I HAD DIED.

>> PLEASE FROM THE INTERNATIONAL POWERS FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE GROWING LOUDER.

WHEN IT COMES TO WIDENING THE WAR, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE HAVE A CLEAR VIEW ACCORDING TO A NEW POLL BY HEBREW UNIVERSITY.

IT FOUND THAT 74% OF ISRAELIS OPPOSE STRIKING IRAN IF IT HARMS ISRAEL'S SECURITY ALLIANCES WITH SUPPORTERS LIKE THE UNITED STATES, WHICH ARE URGING RESTRAINT.

SO OUR NEXT GUEST -- INCLUDING AS CHIEF OF THE IDF INTELLIGENCE UNTIL 2021.

HE IS NOW HEAD OF A SECURITY THINK TANK, AND HE JOINS ME FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE CONTINUED CIVILIAN DISASTER INSIDE GAZA AS ISRAEL CLAIMS IT'S TRYING TO GO AFTER HAMAS.

WHEN YOU SEE THOSE PICTURES, WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR THE WAR FOR YOUR COUNTRY?

>> GOOD EVENING.

PICTURES OF WAR ARE NOT AN EASY SIGHT, AND WAR IS A DIFFICULT SITUATION.

ISRAEL TRIES TO AVOID WAR, AND THAT WAR WAS FORCED UPON US ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

HAMAS LAUNCHED THAT GRUESOME ATTACK, THAT MASSACRE ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER AND FORCED ISRAEL TO GO FOR THAT KIND OF A WAR.

AND THAT UNFORTUNATE KIND OF A WAR.

WE HAVE A CLEAR POLICY TO AVOID AND TRY TO AVOID AND DIMINISH THE SUFFERING OF INNOCENTS AND CIVILIANS.

FROM TIME TO TIME, RUMOR IS INCIDENTS HAPPEN.

WE HAVE A SPECIFIC INTERROGATION MECHANISM TOTALLY INDEPENDENT THAT QUESTIONS AND INVESTIGATE ANY KIND -- AND I'M SURE THAT IT WILL BE DEALT.

>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU THE STRATEGIC PROBLEM OF 34,000 PLUS DEAD IN GAZA IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS AFTER, AS YOU SAY, AND 1,200 ISRAELIS AND STILL HAS MORE THAN 100 HOSTAGES WHICH MANY ISRAELI PEOPLE CONSIDER THEIR FIRST PRIORITY, BRINGING THEM HOME.

THIS IS AN ALLY OF ISRAEL, THE FORMER MI 6 HEAD WHO WROTE RECENTLY YOU MADE HAVE READ IT -- BY ALLOWING THE IDF TO OVERSTEP THE RULES OF WAR IN ITS RESPONSE TO HAMAS ATROCITIES ON OCTOBER 7th, PRIME MINISTER IS GIVING HAMAS A POLITICAL VICTORY.

YOU MUST BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

>> FIRST OF ALL, REGARDING THE NUMBER YOU HAVE JUST MENTIONED, ABOUT A THIRD OF THAT NUMBER, ABOUT 13,000 OUT OF THIS NUMBER ARE TERRORISTS.

ALTHOUGH WE ARE SORRY FOR ANY OF CIVILIANS THAT HAVE BEEN UNMISTAKINGLY TARGETED, THAT RATIO IS RELATIVELY GOOD IF YOU COMPARE IT TO THE INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS BY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED STATES COALITION IN IRAQ AGAINST ISIS AND OTHER HISTORICAL OCCASIONS.

ESPECIALLY IF YOU TAKE IN ACCOUNT THAT HAMAS USES CIVILIANS AS A HUMAN SHIELD, AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MOST ON DENSED AREA IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW -- >> I'M JUST ASKING YOU ABOUT A POLITICAL VICTORY.

>> I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT IS A POLITICAL VICTORY.

I'M NOT SURE THAT WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE THAT KIND -- WE ARE TRYING TO AVOID THAT -- >> WHAT I'M SAYING IS YOU -- >> THERE IS NO VICTORY IN THAT.

>> NOT FOR YOU.

HANDING HAMAS A POLITICAL VICTORY.

ARE YOU NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

>> WE ARE TRYING TO DIMINISH THE NUMBERS OF UNINVOLVED CASUALTY.

WE ARE TRYING TO DO OUR BEST IN ORDER TO AVOID THOSE NUMBERS FROM ESCALATING.

SO THAT'S REALLY NOT -- IT'S AGAINST OUR INTEREST AND THE IDF KNOWS THAT.

>> AS YOU SAY, THERE ARE A LOT OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE KILLING OF CIVILIANS.

LET ME THOUGH ASK YOU THIS, WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE SITUATION IN YOUR COUNTRY IS VERY, VERY TENSE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR GOVERNMENT WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO THE IRAN MISSILE BARRAGE OVER THE WEEKEND?

>> WELL, THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT SOME FORM OF A RESPONSE SHOULD HAPPEN.

BUT BEFORE DEALING WITH THE TECHNICAL ELEMENT ON HOW TO DO THAT, WE SHOULD BALANCE THREE STRATEGIC AIMS THAT SLIGHTLY CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER OR LYING INTENTION BETWEEN THEM.

FIRST, WE MUST SOMEHOW REBALANCE THE -- IRAN MUST NOT HAVE THE PERCEPTION OF ABLING TO STRIKE ISRAEL FROM ITS SOVEREIGN STATE.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED.

IT HAPPENED 30 YEARS AGO THAT THE SOVEREIGN STATE TARGETED ISRAEL DIRECTLY WITH THE BARRAGE OF 300 WAR HEADS.

SECOND, WE MUST NOT EXPAND THE WAR BEYOND THE LIMITS RIGHT NOW, AND THAT WILL FOCUS -- REFOCUS OUR ATTENTION OR DIVIDE OUR ATTENTION BETWEEN GAZA AND OTHER ELEMENTS.

WE MUST BE FOCUSED ON GAZA.

SO ANY KIND OF RESPONSE THAT WILL ESCALATE IT TO A FULL SCALE CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN IS NEGATIVE.

THIRD, WE MUST MAINTAIN AND PRESERVE THE INTERNATIONAL COALITION THAT WORKED TOGETHER WITH ISRAEL IN ORDER TO DEFEND ISRAEL AND ESPECIALLY THE UNITED STATES.

SO IF YOU SUM THAT ALL TO A RECOMMENDATION, WE SHOULD WORK -- WE SHOULD RETALIATE IN IRAN SOIL, BUT TIME IS NOT PRESSURING US.

WE HAVE TIME.

AND BY THE WAY, WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN IRAN IS IN FAVOR WITH THE ISRAELI INTEREST.

THE INTERNAL PRESSURE AGAINST THE IRAN REGIME BLAMING IT FOR ITS ARROGANCE.

IT'S SOMETHING THE IRANIAN REGIME TRIES TO HIDE FROM ITS CIVILIANS THAT ISRAEL HAS THAT KIND OF CAPABLE.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND ON A FULL SCALE WAR WITH IRAN RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE STILL THE WAR OBJECTIVES TO CONTAIN IN GAZA.

IN THOSE TERMS, MOVING TO A SPECIAL OPERATION KIND OF WAY IS PREFERABLE.

AND MAYBE CONTINUE STRIKING IRAN MILITIAS THAT ARE TRYING TO HURT ISRAEL AS WE SPEAK RIGHT NOW IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE LEBANON AND SYRIA, WHATEVER.

>> I THINK I HEAR YOU SAY DOING THAT AND CONTINUING THE KIND OF COVERT ACTION YOU HAVE BEEN AGAINST COMMANDERS AGAINST SCIENTISTS INSIDE IRAN.

SO THERE'S -- I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR A LONG TIME, AND THEN YOU DECIDED TO HIT SYRIA.

SO I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ASSUMPTIONS NOW THAT HAVE GOT EVERYBODY TO THIS POINT.

SO THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER HAS BEEN SAYING -- IN JANUARY, FOR INSTANCE -- AN INCREASE IN THE PRESSURE PLACED ON IRAN IS CRITICAL AND MAY PREVENT REGIONAL ESCALATION IN ADDITIONAL ARENAS.

BUT ACTUALLY, THAT'S WRONG, RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU KEEP UPPING THE PRESSURE, AND NOW LOOK, YOU'VE GOT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 45 YEARS, AN IRANIAN -- SO IS THAT A MISCALCULATION?

>> FIRST OF ALL, REGARDING THE -- HE WAS NOT SHOT INSIDE IRANIAN CONSULATE.

HE WAS NOT ISSUING VISA.

IT IS -- THE HEADQUARTERS OF 18,000 FORCE COMMAND POSTS IN OUR INTELLIGENCE.

IT IS WELL-KNOWN ACROSS SYRIA.

IT IS A KIND OF HUMILIATION BECAUSE THAT HEADQUARTERS HAD ITS FLAG, IRANIAN FLAG, AND THAT KIND OF CREATED THE MOTIVATION TO RETALIATE.

IT WAS NOT THE CONSULATE.

>> WHATEVER IT WAS, IT'S THE PRESSURE THAT YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN SAYING HAS TO HAPPEN.

>> YES.

>> AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THEM FROM DOING ANYTHING.

BUT IT BACKFIRED.

THEY DIDN'T.

YOU KEPT UPPING THE PRESSURE, AND THEY FINALLY RESPONDED.

AND NOW YOU'RE GOING TO RESPOND AND THEN THEY MIGHT RESPOND.

>> WELL, THAT'S -- WE'RE GOING TO WAIT AND SEE HOW IT WILL END AND WHETHER IRAN WILL RESTRAIN ITS PROXIES BECAUSE THE PROXIES IN THE NORTH LED US TO THE DECISION TO STRIKE AND REMOVE -- THEY WAS TWHAUN COORDINATED ALL THE IRANIAN ATAX AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE NORTHERN BORDER.

HE'S THE ONE THAT COORDINATED THE UAVs THAT CAME FROM SYRIA.

HE'S THE COMMANDER IN CHARGE WHO IS CONSTANTLY BOMBARDING OUR NORTHERN BORDER, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT IRAN IS PULLING THE STRINGS BEHIND ALL OF THAT OPERATION.

IRAN IS DIRECTLY INSTRUCTING HIM AS THE FORCE COMMANDER TO DRIVE TO DO WHAT HE DOES.

SO IT'S A MATTER OF PRESSURE, THE LOGIC IS -- WE'LL STILL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER IT WORKS OUT FOR US.

BUT THE LOGIC IS IF YOU PRESSURE IRAN AND SEND STRATEGIC MESSAGING TO START DIFFUSING THE TENSION IN THE NORTH IN ORDER NOT TO ESCALATE TO A FULL-SCALE WAR, THAT MIGHT LEAD TO SOME KIND OF A FORM OF STABILIZING THE SITUATION IN THE NORTH.

>> AND YOU MEAN THE NORTH HEZBULA, RIGHT?

SO I UNDERSTAND THAT.

I STILL SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

YOU KEPT TRYING TO AND KEPT PUTTING THE PRESSURE ON, AND THIS IS THE RESULT YOU HAVE.

THE U.S. POLICY EXPERT FROM THE MIDDLE EAST ERA, AARON DAVID MILLER SAYS YOU'RE 0 FOR 2 IN TERMS OF ASSUMPTIONS.

FAILING TO READ CAPACITY AND INTENTIONS BEFORE OCTOBER 7th AND MISJUMGING HOW HAMAS WOULD RESPOND TO THE ATTACK.

DO YOU NEED TO RETHINK HOW YOU CONSIDER STRATEGY?

NOT JUST TACTICS.

>> THOSE ARE TWO -- I TEND TO AGREE WITH THE ASSUMPTION OR WITH THE CONCLUSION THAT WAS MENTIONED RIGHT THERE.

I THINK THE INTELLIGENCE -- THE IDF INTELLIGENT WAS WRONG ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER FOR NOT DETECTING THE HAMAS INTENTION, AND IT WAS WRONG OF ASSUMING WHAT WILL BE THE IRANIAN RESPONSE.

THOSE ARE TWO MISTAKES NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

BUT STILL, SOMETHING HAS CHANGED DRAMATIC IN TERMS OF THE IRANIAN SELF CONFIDENCE AND POWER PROJECTIONS IN THE ARENA.

THE FACT THAT THEY'VE ALLOWED THEMSELVES, THE STREAM THAT WAS KNOWN FOR HIS MODERATE APPROACH AND HOW HE IS AFRAID FROM RISKING HIS OWN COUNTRY FOR THE PAST YEARS HAS CHANGED HIS STRATEGY, HAS CHANGED HIS POLICY, AND YOU MUST ASK YOURSELF WHETHER THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CREATED IT SAFE FOR THE MIDDLE EAST OR A MORE DANGEROUS MIDDLE EAST.

I ARGUE THAT OVER-SELF-CONFIDENCE BY IRANIANS, HAVING THE FACT THAT THEY ARE CONTROLLING MILITIAS ALL ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST IS A VERY NEGATIVE DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK THIS IS WHY ALL THE INTERNATIONAL COALITION THAT WAS FORMULATED IN ORDER TO BLOCK THE IRANIAN ACTIVITIES, THAT WAS THE MOTIVATION BEHIND THAT.

EVERY ONE OF HERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, OUR COUNTRIES AND ISRAEL KNOW THAT OVER-SELF-CONFIDENCE IN IRAN IS DRAMATIC.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A THRESHOLD NUCLEAR STATE WITH PROXIES ALL ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST WHO CONTROLS THE -- THAT THE -- >> LET ME JUST ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I THINK YOU KNOW WELL THAT THE ONE THING THAT WAS ABLE TO RESTRAIN, AS YOU SAY, A THRESHOLD NUCLEAR RESTRAIN WAS THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.

WHATEVER YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT, YOUR PRIME MINISTER ALONG WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, ALONG WITH THE CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI ARABIA PULLED OUT OF THAT.

NOW IT'S A MUCH CLOSER THRESHOLD.

I SEE YOU NODDING.

I'M ASSUMING YOU AGREE WITH THAT SORT OF BASIC ARMS CONTROL LOGIC.

BUT NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

74% OF YOUR PEOPLE, OF THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, OPPOSE A STRIKE -- ACCORDING TO THIS POLL, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU RATE THE POLL -- BUT ACCORDING TO IN FIRST POLL SINCE SATURDAY NIGHT, THEY OPPOSE ANY STRIKE AGAINST IRAN IF IT UNDERMINES ISRAEL'S SECURITY ALLIANCE WITH ITS ALLIES THE AND YOU KNOW THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS WARNED AGAINST IT.

BENJAMIN SAYS HE WILL, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, TAKE WHATEVER DECISIONS FOR ISRAEL THAT HE NEEDS TO TAKE HIMSELF.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER DYNAMIC, THE SEPARATION OF ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES POTENTIALLY.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I AGREE THAT PULLING OUT WAS A STRATEGIC MISTAKE.

I WAS AGAINST IT.

SECONDLY, I THINK THAT QUESTION HAS SOME PROBLEMS HOW IT WAS ARTICULATED BECAUSE EVERYBODY -- NOBODY REALLY WANTS TO ESCALATE THE WAR.

ISRAELIS ARE OBSESSED OF PEACE AND QUIET, ALL THOUGH IT SOUNDS SOMETIMES DIFFERENTLY AND ESCALATING TO A FULL CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN RIGHT NOW, IT IS AGAINST THE COMMON KNOWLEDGE HERE IN ISRAEL.

BUT IF YOU WOULD ASK THEM THAT REPEATEDLY IF WE'RE GOING TO FACE THAT KIND OF A TOOL THAT IS IRANIAN DIRECT THREAT BY MISSILES TOWARD ISRAEL TO BE SOMETHING AS OUR NEW NEXT THE-DAY REALITY, I THINK THEY WILL OPPOSE IT DRAMATICALLY AND WILL ASK THE ESTABLISHMENT TO REMOVE THIS KIND OF THREAT.

WE ARE USED TO BEING THREATENED BY TERROR ORGANIZATION, AND WE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT, BUT THE SIZE OF IRAN WITH ITS CAPABILITY, IT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY, IT IS SAID THAT ANY, EVEN THE SLIGHTEST ATTACK INSIDE IRAN WILL BE MET.

SO ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT -- WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF ISRAEL TAKES AN ACTION INSIDE IRAN.

THERE WILL BE A RESPONSE ACCORDING TO IRAN, AND THEN WHERE ARE WE.

A AND ALSO, CAN ISRAEL ALONE WITHOUT ITS ALLIES DEFEND AGAINST 300 MISSILES COMING IN?

>> THE ISSUE OF RETALIATION BY IRANIANS, THAT'S THE BASIC ASSUMPTION THEN WE MUST TAKE THAT IN MIND WHEN WE RETALIATE.

IT'S ALL A MATTER OF HOW YOU RETALIATE AND WHEN YOU RETALIATE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO WORK SMART AND NOT QUICKLY AND BRUTALLY.

OF COURSE I WILL NOT GIVE ANY KIND OF SUGGESTION ON HOW THE METHOD WILL BE, BUT THERE ARE METHODS THAT CAN DIMINISH THAT RISK.

>> OKAY.

WELL, LISTEN, GENERAL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

IT'S BEEN REALLY INTERESTING, AND WE'LL COME BACK TO YOU.

>>> NOW, GETTING INFORMATION FROM GAZA AS WE HAVE BEFORE, IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT THE BRAVERY OF PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS WHO LIVE THERE.

FOR SIX MONTHS, THEY HAVE ALLOWED NO REPORTERS TO FREELY ENTER.

LOCAL JOURNALISTS HAVE DOCUMENTED THE ONGOING DESTRUCTION OF THEIR OWN HOMES, THE DEATHS OF THEIR LOVED ONES.

SCORES OF THEM HAVE ALSO PAID THE HIGHEST PRICE.

HE'S BEEN REPORTING FROM THE WAR SINCE IT BEGAN.

I RECENTLY REACHED HIM IN RAFA TO ASK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF BEARING WITNESS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIAN.

>> I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU YOURSELF, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO WORK AS A JOURNALIST IN GAZA.

>> PERSONALLY FOR ME, IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT EXPERIENCE BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN DEALING AND WORKING UNDER REALLY TOUGH CIRCUMSTANCES, AS WE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO GO TO AREAS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AREAS OF CONFRONTATIONS JUST TO DELIVER THE TRUTH AND DELIVER ALL THE LATEST AND SERIOUS DEVELOPMENTS ON THE GROUND.

WE HAVE BEEN MOVING AFTER RECEIVING ORDERS FROM THE MILITARY IN ORDER TO BE AWAY FROM THE ONGOING BOMBARDMENT.

SO IT'S COMPLETELY A TOUGH JOB RIGHT NOW AS WE ARE VERY KEEN ON DELIVERING AND PUTTING THE TRUTH TO THE INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE.

AT THE TIME, YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON MAINTAINING AND AFFORDING ALL YOUR BASIC AND HUMANITARIAN BASIC SUPPLIES ARMORED TO THESE CONDITIONS.

>> WE CAN ONLY GET A GLIMPSE OF IT FROM THE OUTSIDE, AND WE'RE UTTERLY DEPENDENT ON YOU ALL WITH YOUR iPHONES AND CAMERAS TO KEEP SHOWING WHAT'S GOING ON.

YOU KNOW, THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS SAYS NOW, SIX MONTHS LATER, THERE'S NEARLY 100 JOURNALIST AND MEDIA WORKERS, OBVIOUSLY THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS THAT GAZA, AND THEY SAY MOST OF THOSE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAELI STRIKES.

SOME OF THEM AT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES OVERNIGHT.

SOME OF THEM OUTSIDE ON THE JOB.

SOME OF THEM LIKE ALL CIVILIANS TRYING TO GET FOOD AND WATER.

WHAT HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE BEEN?

HAVE YOU LOST FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUE?

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY HARD TO DESCRIBE THAT, SPECIFICALLY THAT WE'VE BEEN WITNESSING MULTIPLE LOSSES SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE OUTBREAK OF THIS CONFLICT.

SINCE DAY ONE OF THE FIGHT, JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN KILLED ALONG WITH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS, SOME OF THEM AT WORK, SOME OF THEM RESTING.

AND ME PERSONALLY, I'VE LOST A NUMBER OF MY COLLEAGUES DURING THE REPORTING AND COVERAGE.

I'VE LOST MY FRIEND WHO HAS BEEN KILLED ALONGSIDE -- DURING HIS REPORTING.

HE HAS BEEN LEFT BLEEDING FOR SIX HOURS.

ALSO CRITICALLY INJURED.

THERE WAS UPSCALING ATTACKS, A HIGH RISK ON THE LIVES OF JOURNALISTS.

ALSO IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, I'VE LOST -- WHO HAS BEEN HIT WITH A DRONE MISSILE AS HE WAS COVERING AND TRYING TO FILM ONE OF THE LATEST ISRAELI ATTACKS IN THE RAFA DISSTRICT.

I'VE BEEN SHARING LOTS OF MEMORIES WITH PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT MULTIPLE ISSUES AND DREAMS THAT ARE REALLY SEEKING TO ACHIEVE AFTER THE END OF THE WAR AS THEY ARE GIVING A CLEAR SIGN THAT NO PROTECTION FOR JOURNALISTS THE JOURNALISTS ARE CIVILIANS.

I'M REALLY SAD TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ATTACKED.

>> AND OF COURSE YOU KNOW THAT YOUR OWN NETWORK HAS SAID THAT THEY HOLD ISRAEL ACCOUNTABLE FOR, QUOTE, SYSTEMICALLY TARGETING AND KILLING JOURNALISTS AND THEIR FAMILIES.

YOU JUST MENTIONED ONE FAMILY.

WE KNOW WHILE AS THE BUREAU CHIEF, AND HIS 16-YEAR-OLD SON, 7-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER, AND A GRANDSON WERE ALL KILLED.

I WONDER BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS SAY THEY TAKE ALL THE NECESSARY MEANS TO AVOID CIVILIANS AND JOURNALISTS.

DOES THAT STRIKE YOU AS REAL?

DO YOU FEEL THE TARGETING IS DESIGNED TO AVOID YOU AND OTHER CIVILIANS?

>> WELL, LET ME ILLUSTRATE SOMETHING FOR YOU.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS BEEN LAUNCHING WHITE MILITARY CAMPAIGN WITH THE GAZA STRIP NOW.

THERE'S GENERALS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED THAT DID NOT RECEIVE ANY PRIOR WARNING BEFORE THEY HAD BEEN DIRECTLY HIT BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

THEY WERE REPORTING ON THE GROUND TO AREAS DESIGNATED AS A SAFE ZONE, AND THEY DID NOT RECEIVE ANY TYPE OF A PRIOR WARNING.

JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN ATTACKED WITHOUT A JUSTIFICATION.

THERE MUST AT LEAST HAVE BEEN AFFORDED PROTECTION AS THEY ARE DOING THEIR NOBLE JOB.

THEY ARE TRYING TO RETURN BACK SAFE TO THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.

WE HAVE BEEN HEARING MORE INTERNATIONAL DEMANDS TO OFFER THEM PROTECTION.

CLEARLY NONE OF THAT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED PRACTICALLY ON THE GROUND AS JOURNALISTS HERE ARE ALSO AFRAID TO LOSE THEIR LIFE AS THEY ARE.

>> WE HAVE IN AWE OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

WE DO TRY TO URGE IZ TREEL LET US IN IN BIGGER NUMBERS.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CONSTANT KILLINGS, THE DEATHS OF JOURNALISTS, YOU KNOW, SOME HAVE SUGGESTED LIKE THE CPJ AND OTHERS THAT THIS MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT.

IT KEEPS REDUCING TO -- YOU KNOW, THE WINDOW THROUGH WHICH NEWS AND TRUTH IS GETTING OUT.

>> WELL, THAT'S COMPLETELY RIGHT BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN 100 PAL STILLIAN JOURNALISTS BEING KILLED.

IT MEANS WE ARE LOSING MORE ROOTS OF INFORMATION AND ALSO NEWS BECAUSE AS JOURNALISTS WE ARE SOMETIMES FORCED TO GO TO THE LOCATION OF THE TARGETING IN ORDER TO GET RELIABLE INFORMATION FROM EYEWITNESSES DOWN ON THE GROUND IN ORDER TO BE LATER REPORTED TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WE SOMETIMES ARE FACING STRUGGLES IN TERMS OF TRANSPORTATION IN ORDER TO GET ACCESS TO THE LOCATION.

SPECIFICALLY AS WE HAVE BEEN MENTIONING EARLIER, THERE IS ONGOING BLOCK OF INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS TO GET INTO GAZA TO HELP PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS TO REPORT.

USUALLY BEFORE THEY HAVE BEEN DEPENDING ON TRANSLATORS.

THEY ARE DOING ALL THAT JOB WEARING DIFFERENT HATS AT THE SAME TIME DESPITE ALL THE UNBEARABLE CONDITIONS FOR ONE PURPOSE, TO DELIVER ACCURATE RELATABLE INFORMATION TO THE AUDIENCE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE DIFFICULTIES TO REPORTING.

WE KNOW THAT JOURNALISTS NEED ELECTRICITY, CHARGERS, PHONES, LAPTOPS.

THAT MUST BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR YOU, PARTICULARLY PERIODICALLY WHEN COMES HAVE BEEN SLASHED.

ASK YOU IN OCTOBER WHEN THERE WAS ONE OF THE CUTTINGS FROM COMMUNICATIONS I BELIEVE FROM ISRAEL, YOU MADE THIS APPEAR ON AIR, AND WE'RE GOING TO ROLL A BIT OF IT.

>> PLEASE, GUYS, IF YOU CAN HEAR THIS, SEND THIS MESSAGE TO THE WORLD THAT WE ARE ISOLATED IN GAZA.

WE ARE ISOLATED ON THE TERRITORY.

WE DON'T HAVE PHONE SIGNALS OR INTERNET CONNECTIONS.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO CONNECT WITH RELATIVES IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE TERRITORY.

WE JUST ONLY HEAR BOMBARDMENT.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF ACCESS OF COMMUNICATION TO ANYONE.

>> SO THAT WAS IN OCTOBER AT THE BEGINNING.

WHAT IS IT LIKE NOW?

WHAT IS IT LIKE TRYING TO BE IN TOUCH WITH YOUR FAMILIES?

TRYING TO KEEP YOUR ITEMS CHARGED AND USABLE?

>> WELL, GENERALLY, THIS IS A CLEAR PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM SINCE DAY ONE OF THE FIGHT.

WE HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DEPRIVED OF HAVING ELECTRICITY AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF THE MA JOYTY OF THE ELECTRIC WORKS.

OF COURSE, THE GAZA STRIP AND CLEARLY REMEMBER THE ISRAELI DECISION TO BAN THE ENTRY IN ORDER TO OPERATE AT -- SO CLEARLY WE HAVE BEEN GRAPPLING IN ORDER TO GET ELECTRICITY AS WE HAVE BEEN MOVING FROM HOSPITALS IN ORDER TO GET ELECTRICITY SERVICES FROM THESE HOSPITALS.

AS YOU KNOW, ATTACKS ARE ON EVERY SINGLE CORNER.

MAJORITY ARE REPORTING FROM INSIDE THE HOSPITALS IN ORDER TO GET USE FROM THE ELECTRICITY SERVICE.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT SOMETIMES WE ARE GRAPPLING ALSO WITH INTERNET CONNECTION WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF NETWORK TOWERS AND INTERNET NETWORKS INSIDE THE GAZA STRIP.

RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE A KIND OF A RELATIVE MITIGATION IN TERMS OF HAVING ELECTRICITY AND HAVING ALSO A KIND OF INTERNET CONNECTION IN THE SOUTHERN PART.

BUT OTHER AREAS ARE STRUGGLING BECAUSE OF THE ISRAELI ONGOING OPERATION.

THERE'S GOING TO BE AN EXPANSION OF THE FIGHTING IN RAFA HERE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, THOUGH, AS A JOURNALIST, WHAT IS THE STAGE OF PLAY?

DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELI FORCES HAVE CONTROL?

I MEAN, SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, THEY SAID THEY WERE DOING THE NORTH, AND THEN THE CENTRAL, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING BACK.

BACK AGAIN, AND IT'S NOW IN RUBBLE.

DO YOU GET THE IMPRESS THAT ISRAELI FORCES ARE IN CONTROL OF MOST OF GAZA?

>> MAINLY WHAT WE SEE IS THEY MANAGE CONTROL THE OTHER PART OF THE GAZA STRIP AND DAYS AND WEEKS LATER, WE HAVE BEEN RECORDING MORE CASES ABOUT CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE ARMS GROUPS AND ISRAELI GROUPS.

AS WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING WITHIN THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND THAT'S COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS BEEN SAYING TO THE PUBLIC IN DIFFERENT MEDIA PRESS AND THE STATE DESPITE ITS POLITICAL AND MILITARY OFFICIALS IN THE ARMY.

AS WE'VE BEEN HEARING AND SEEING ON THE GROUND THAT THERE IS NO -- THEY ARE SAYS THAT THEY ARE CONTROLLING, BUT WE CAN SEE ENTRY ON THE GAZA.

>> SO THIS COULD GO ON FOR A LONG TIME.

FINALLY I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU KNOW THAT ALGEZERA HAS ALWAYS BEEN A TARGET OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE ISRAELIS HAVE PASSED A LAW WHICH BASICALLY SAYS THEY COULD BAN ANY FOREIGN NETWORK PERCEIVED AS A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

ARE YOU CONCERNED -- DO YOU AND YOUR TEAM MEMBERS THINK ALGEZERA -- BECAUSE THEY'VE SINGLED YOU OUT -- WILL BE SHUT DOWN?

HAVE YOU HAD ANY THREATS BY AISRAELIS THERE OR ANYTHING?

>> WE'RE REPORTING THE TRUTH.

WE'RE COVERING THE BATTLE.

WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE A NEUTRAL MEDIA COVERAGE FOR ALL THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS ON THE GAZA STRIP.

WE DID NOT RECEIVE A THREAT.

WE CAN SEE THERE'S AN UPSCALING ON THE ATTACKS NOT ONLY IN GAZA BUT ALSO IN THE WEST BANK.

THEY HAVE PREVIOUSLY KILLED OUR VETERAN JOURNALIST.

RECENTLY THEY HAVE BEEN ATTACKING GAZA CITY -- ARED, BEATEN, HUMILIATED AFTER LATER BEING RELEASED.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THEY HAVE KILLED OUR COLLEAGUES AS THEY WERE DOING THEIR JOB.

IF THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY PRACTICAL -- FOR THE ISRAELI DECISION, SEEMS LIKE WE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE ONE OF THE MOST PERMANENT AND USED CHANNELS IN THE MIDDLE EAST RECOVERING ALL THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS ON THE GROUND.

IT MEANS THERE'S GOING TO BE A LACK OF CREDIBILITY AND A LACK OF FLOW OF INFORMATION TO THE AUDIENCE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA.

>> I WISH WE COULD JOIN YOU, AND WE KEEP TRYING, AND THANK YOU FOR DOING SUCH A HEROIC JOB AND ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES THERE.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> AN AMAZING JOB INDEED.

JUST TO NOTE, HE WAS A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN, AND REGARDING HIS COLLEAGUE WHO HE MENTIONED, CNN REACHED OUT TO THE IDF LAST MONTH ABOUT HIS ARREST, AND IN RESPONSE, A SPOKESMAN SAID WE'RE NOT AWARE OF THE DETENTION OF A MAN BY THAT NAME.

>>> NEXT, CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN IZ RAIL AND HAMAS HAVE REACHED A DELICATE PHASE.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO MEDIATOR QATAR.

SIX MONTHS AFTER IT LAUNCH THAT HAD BRUTAL ATTACK MURDERING OVER 1,000 ISRAELIS.

WHAT ARE HAMAS' NEXT MOVES?

MICHELLE MARTIN SPOKE WITH AMED, HUFF POST SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT WHO'S INTERVIEWED TWO HAMAS LEADERS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE'RE VERY INTRIGUED BY THE PIECE YOU POSTED.

NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO HAMAS.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I HAD TO YOU IS WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA TO TRY TO GO TO SOME SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE LEADERSHIP?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO BEING BASED HERE IN D.C., WE GET TO HEAR A LOT FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SPOKESPEOPLE.

WE HAVE A LOT OF FOREIGN OFFICIALS COMING AND GOING.

BUT IF WE THINK ABOUT THE ISRAELI PALESTINIAN CONFLICT, HAMAS IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE STORY.

LIKE THEM, HATE THEM, DENOUNCE THEM, WHATEVER YOUR FEELINGS ARE, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM.

THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SET OFF THIS EPISODE OF FIGHTING, AND THEY ARE WHO ISRAEL IS IN GAZA WITH U.S. SUPPORT FIGHTING AS WE SPEAK TODAY.

SO MY EDITORS AND I IN THE FALL AND KIND OF WINTER DECIDED TO THINK HOW CAN WE TRY TO GET THAT PERSPECTIVE, TO FRAME IT IN A WA THAT INFORMS OUR AUDIENCE AND DOES SO RESPONSIBLY.

IT WAS QUITE A CHALLENGE ENDEAVOR, BOTH THE LOGISTIC OF IT AND THE KIND OF TAKING ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF TALKING TO THESE PEOPLE AND GIVING THEM A PLATFORM TO REACH A MAJOR AMERICAN AUDIENCE.

>> WELL, SAY A LITTLE MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK PEOPLE DO KNOW THAT HAMAS IS CONSIDERED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER GOVERNMENTS.

FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST QUESTION IS INTERVIEW ITSELF, WOULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO DO?

>> SO HAMAS, AS YOU MENTIONED, IS LISTED AS A TERROR ORGANIZATION BY THE U.S. AND EU.

IN FACT, A LOT OF AMERICANS CAN FACE LEGAL PENALTIES FOR ENGAGING WITH HAMAS TO SOME EXTENT.

THAT'S A REAL BARRIER AND SYSTEMIC RELUCTANCE TO ENGAGING WITH THEM.

FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, WE FELT THIS IS A VIEWPOINT THAT WE WANT TO NOT ONLY CONVENE, TO SOME EXTENT WE DO GET HAMAS MESSAGING.

WE GET THE DOCUMENTS AND STATEMENTS.

BUT WE WANT TO REALLY CHALLENGE IT AND PRESS IT AND ENGAGE WITH IT AND ASK THEM TOUGH QUESTIONS AND TAKE THAT HOUR OR TWO HOURS TO SIT WITH THEM AND SAY LET'S TALK ABOUT CIVILIANS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT MANY PALESTINIANS AREN'T SUPPORTIVE OF YOU.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT UNLESS YOU'RE HAVING A CONVERSATION OR DIALOGUE.

>> SO WHO DID YOU WISH TO SPEAK TO AND WHAT ROLE DID THEY TAKE IN THE HAMAS ORGANIZATION?

>> I WANTED EVERYONE, THE FORMER HEAD OF HAMAS, THE NEGOTIATOR, AND I WAS ABLE TO GET THE LATTER TWO WITH THE SECOND IN COMMAND OF HAMAS.

HE'S BEEN A MAJOR FIGURE.

ACTUALLY HAS BEEN IN THE U.S. FOR A WHILE AND VARIOUS COUNTRIES.

THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN CENTRAL TO THEIR OPERATIONS AND IS ACTUALLY DESIGNATED AS A TERRORIST BY THE U.S.

THE U.S. SAYS HE'S BEEN ONE OF THE CHIEF FUNDERS.

I ALSO SPOKE WITH HE WAS A MINISTER IN MA MASS' ADMINISTRATION.

HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN ARE IN GAZA.

HE HAPPENED TO BE OUT OF GAZA HE SAID ACCIDENTALLY IN HIS WORD PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7th AND HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO RETURN.

>> I HAVE TO START WITH OCTOBER 7th.

WHAT IS THEIR POINT OF VIEW ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH ON OCTOBER 7th, AND DO THEY THINK THEY ACCOMPLISHED IT?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST STRIKING THINGS.

OCTOBER 7th IS SUCH A TOUCH STONE OF TRAUMA FOR MANY PEOPLE FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, DESPITE EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED SINCE, WE'RE TALKING CLOSE TO 24,000 PALESTINIANS AT LEAST DEAD.

1,100 ISRAELIS, MANY HOSTAGES STILL LIVE UNDER HAMAS CONTROL.

HAMAS STILL BELIEVES IT WAS WORTH IT.

THEIR ARGUMENT IS WE WANTED TO DRAW BACK GLOBAL ATTENTION TO ISRAEL PAG DESIGN.

WE FELT IT WAS SLIPPING AWAY.

WE FELT THE U.S.

DIDN'T CARE ABOUT A RESOLUTION TO THIS CONFLICT, AND WE FELT LIKE WE REALLY NEEDED THIS KIND OF BIG EXPOSURE.

AND THEY'RE SAYING THIS ISN'T ABOUT OCTOBER 7th.

SPECIFICALLY THEY USE THIS PHRASE, HISTORY DIDN'T BEGIN ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS KIND OF OBVIOUSLY DECADES LONG ISRAELI POLICY OF SUBJECTING PALESTINIANS TO A LARGE DEGREE.

YOU'VE SEEN THESE RISING ATTACKS BY SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK, THIS KIND OF SENSE OF THE WINDOW IS CLOSING.

FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL PALESTINES.

SO FOR ALL WHAT THEY WOULD SEE AS COLLATERAL DAMAGE, AND IT'S A VERY HEAVY TOLL FOR ALL TO OF THAT, TO THEM IT'S STILL WORTH IT.

>> DID THEY AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THE OTHER GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THEY HIDE AMONG THE CIVILIAN POPULATION?

>> LOOK, WE ARE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS PLACE FROM 2006 ONWARDS, HAMAS WAS RUNNING GAZA.

HOTS OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, POLICE OFFICERS, ANYONE WHO'S IN THAT ADMINISTRATION IS HAMAS LINKED.

SO SAY THEY ARE HIDING WITHIN A CIVILIAN POPULATION -- >> THEIR ARGUMENT IS THEY ARE THE CIVILIAN POPULATION?

WERE THEY TRYING TO KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE?

WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT THAT.

>> I PRESSED THEM ON THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE YOU KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th WE KNOW WERE CIVILIANS.

THEIR ARGUMENT, AND IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO DENY THAT TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH SOME FOLKS ABROAD HAVE TRIED TO DO.

THEY'RE SAYING IT WAS CHAOS.

WE ONLY TARGETED MILITARY TARGETS.

WE DID NOT MEAN FOR CIVILIANS TO GET KILLED.

THEY'RE NOT DENYING THE MAJORITY WERE CIVILIANS.

>> SO THEY ACTUALLY SAY THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO KILL CIVILIANS?

THEY SAID IT WAS SOME SORT OF A LOGISTICAL OR TACTICAL BREAKDOWN OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE?

>> THE WAY WE PUT IT WAS TO SAY THEY DEFLECTED THE BLAME FROM THE ATTACKERS TO THE ATTACKED.

THEY SAY, ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEFENDING BETTER, AND BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT, ONCE THEY BROKE THROUGH, THAT'S WHY SO MANY TARGETS WERE ATTACKED.

THEY ARGUED AND THEY'RE TELLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

BUT THAT'S REALLY WHAT THEY ESTIMATE.

CERTAINLY WE KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT INITIALLY INVOLVED IN THE ATTACK FROM GAZA DID COME THROUGH INTO ISRAEL AND CARRY OUT SOME OF THE THOSE ATROCITY.

>> DO THEY ACKNOWLEDGE RAPING WOMEN AND USING SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A WAY OF WAR?

>> THEY ARE REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT SO FAR.

>> HOW DO THEY ACCOUNT FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES?

SURELY THEY HAVE LOST SOME OF THEIR OWN RELATIVES AND LOVED ONES.

>> MANY.

WE SAW HIS CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN THE ISRAELI STRIKE JUST LAST WEEK.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE I MET WHO WAS HELPING COORDINATE THE INTERVIEW.

HE SAID MY MOTHER WAS HIT BY SHRAPNEL, I LOST TWO NIECES.

IT'S SO STRIKING THEY'RE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

VISIBLY GENUINELY UPSET, AND THEN THEY'RE TELLING IT'S WORTH IT, AND THEY'RE TELLING WE THE PEOPLE OF GAZA KNEW WHAT WE WERE SIGNING UP FOR.

THERE'S A REAL ARGUMENT WE HAD THERE.

DID ALL THE PEOPLE OF GAZA AGREE TO HAVE THIS ATTACK?

BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TELLING.

THEY WANT TO SAY THIS OPERATION WAS WORTH IT, BUT IT DIDN'T GO THE WAY WE WANTED IT TO GO BECAUSE THERE WAS CHAOS, CIVILIANS WERE KILLED.

AND ALSO, SO MUCH OF THEIR MESSAGE, SO MUCH OF THAT BOLSTERING AND WHAT THEY SAID AND EVEN WHEN I PRESSED THEM WAS, WE ARE WILLING TO GO TO A NEGOTIATING TABLE.

THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST.

THEY'RE THEY'RE STANDING BY THIS IDEA THAT PALESTINE DOES NOT NEED TO EXIST.

THE FACT THAT THEY WERE SAYING THAT WITH THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE ATTACK IS AN ATTEMPT TO MODERATE FROM THEM.

WE DON'T WANT TO KEEP FIGHTING.

WE WERE USING THE PIECE.

AS RATIONAL TO SOME EXTENT.

>> TO THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THERE IS REALLY NO WAY TO KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE IN GAZA FEEL ABOUT THEIR LEADERSHIP SINCE THEY HAVE NOT HAD ELECTIONS SINCE, WHEN, 2006?

HOW DO THEY TALK ABOUT THAT?

I'LL TAKE A STEP BACK.

IN 2019, I WAS ABLE TO ACTUALLY REPORT FROM GAZA AND TALK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I WAS ABLE TO ACTUALLY BEFORE THE DISRUPTION AND KIND OF BE THAT HAMAS RULE AND TALK TO PEOPLE WHAT ABOUT THAT FELT LIKE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, YES, PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO VOTE.

WE HAVE HAD SURVEYS, WE HAVE HAD PEOPLE SPEAK UP AGAINST HAMAS RULE, AND THEY DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

I DID PRESS THEM ON A COUPLE OF SURVEYS AND I SAID, LOOK, I TALKED TO PEOPLE WHEN I WAS IN GAZA IN 2019 WHO SAID -- THIS ONE WOMAN, I'LL NEVER FORGET.

SHE SAID I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PRACTICE AS A LAWYER BECAUSE I REFUSE TO COVER MY HEAD IN -- THAT'S NOT MY BELIEF.

THEY SAY WE TOLERATE EVERYONE, AND WE UNDERSTAND DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES.

THEY ACCEPT THAT THEY DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL OR EITHER MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WHAT'S SO STRIKING IS THEY SAY -- AND THIS IS REALLY HARD TO DISPUTE -- POLLS IN THE WEST BANK IN GAZA DO SHOW THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS ARE SUPPORTIVE OF RESISTANCE.

THEY ARE SAYING WE THINK THE PALESTINIANS ARE SICK OF THE STATUS QUO, WANT TO SEE A CHANGE, AND WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE AGGRESSIVELY DOING SOMETHING TO CHANGE IT.

>> WHAT IS THEIR END GOAL OF HOW THIS CONFLICT ENDS?

ARE THEY WILLING TO FIGHT TO THE LAST PALESTINIAN?

>> I THINK THEY WOULD SAY NO.

I THINK THEY WOULD SAY IT'S NOT OUR POLICY THAT IS ABOUT FIGHTING, FIGHTING, FIGHTING.

THEY'RE ARGUING, ACKNOWLEDGE US, BRING US INTO A POLITICAL PROCESS, WHICH THE U.S. IS NOT WILLING TO DO.

THE PLO, THE PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION, IT'S BEEN CLEAR WE WILL NOT SEE HAMAS IN THAT PARTY AND WE WON'T DEAL WITH THEM.

THEY ARE SAYING WE ARE AN INDUCE -- INDUCE PUTABLE PART OF THE FABRIC.

EVEN ONES THEY HAVE HATED AND HAVE OPEN FIGHTING WITH.

AND THEY SAID, WELL, WE WANT TO REACH A DEAL AMONG THE PALESTINIANS, LET US DO THAT AND LET US NEGOTIATE.

ESSENTIALLY THEY'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T EXCLUDE US, SO THAT'S THE PART OF THE PARADIGM THAT NEEDS TO SHIFT.

I WAS ALSO STRUCK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT END GAME BY A SENSE OF URGENCY THEY SEEM TO FEEL IN TERMS OF -- IN THEIR FRAMING -- THAT ISRAEL IS GETTING MORE CONSERVATIVE AND RIGHT WING AND ESPECIALLY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, SUPPORT WITHIN ISRAEL FOR GIVING PALESTINIANS HAS DIMINISHED.

AND I DO THINK THERE WAS THIS KIND OF CONCERN ON THEIR SIDE GENUINE OR NOT, BUT CERTAINLY THEY WANT TO EXPRESS IT THAT THE WINDOW MAY BE CLOSING, ISRAEL MAY BE GETTING EVEN MORE HARD LINE, AND THEN WE'RE LOCKED INTO CONFLICT.

>> INTERESTING.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR TAKEAWAYS?

>> I WAS SHOCKED BY HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT U.S. AND ISRAELI POLITICS.

I DID NOT EXPECT THEM TO BE NAME CHECKING VARIOUS MEMBERS IN THE ISRAELI CABINET OR ASKING ME WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT LIKE THE YOUTH PROTESTING.

I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER INTERESTING PART OF HOW THEY SEE THEMSELVES AND WANT TO BE SEEN.

THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS A POLITICAL ACTOR.

YOU CAN ARGUE WE'RE NEVER GOING TO TOLERATE THAT.

THEY'VE DONE TOO MANY HORRIBLE ATROCITIES.

BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

WE WON'T BE SEEN AS PART OF A GLOBAL POLITICAL CONVERSATION, AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE TRACKING WHERE MIGHT BIDEN BE BECAUSE OF THE ELECTION, HOW IS HE REACTING TO VOTERS IN MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN.

>> YOU MEAN THEY HAD GRANULAR INTEREST IN SOME OF THE UNITED STATES.

I WOULD BE REMISS, THE HOSTAGES, WAS THAT ALWAYS PART OF THE PLAN?

>> YES.

>> WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

>> THAT WAS PART OF THE PLAN.

THEY TOLD ME AS MUCH.

AND THERE'S A HISTORY TO THAT.

SO OFTEN HAMAS AND OTHER PALESTINIAN MILITANT GROUPS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET A LOT OF PRISONERS BY TAKING A SMALL NUMBER OF ISRAELIS.

IN THEIR ARGUMENT, THEY WOULD SAY WE ONLY WANTED TO TAKE MILITARY HOSTAGES, ONLY SOLDIERS.

I PUSHED THEM ON HOW MANY HOSTAGES ARE STILL ALIVE.

IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION.

WE KNOW THERE'S MORE THAN 100 WHO ARE NOT BACK YET.

HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE ALIVE.

THEY TOLD ME AT THAT TIME, 40.

WE'VE NOW SEEN IN NEGOTIATIONS THAT MAYBE THEY ONLY HAVE UP TO 20.

I THINK SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS THEIR DEFINITION OF HOSTAGE AND WHO'S A CIVILIAN IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN ISRAEL.

>> THEY ARE CHILDREN TAKEN HOSTAGE.

ARE THEY NOT -- >> CHILDREN, OLDER PEOPLE, YES.

BUT THEY WERE CLASSIFIED EVEN AFTER TO BE DEEMED SOLDIERS, WHICH IS NOT A CLASSIFICATION THAT THE U.S. AND ISRAEL WOULD USE.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE TALKING AT CROSS WIRES IN THAT WAY.

>> I THINK THERE IS A HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE USED TERRORIST MEANS AND VIOLENCE TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GOALS BEING BROUGHT INTO GOVERNMENTS.

I THINK THAT WE SAW THAT IN NORTHERN IRELAND WHERE THE IRA HAS BECOME PART OF THE POLITICAL DIALOGUE ONCE THEY AGREE TO LAY DOWN ARMS.

WE'VE SEEN THAT IN COLUMBIA.

SO DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THERE IS A WAY THAT THIS GROUP, WHICH HAS COMMITTED ACTS OF TERRORISM, COULD BE PERSUADED TO MAKE SOME SORT OF A DEAL WHERE THEY LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING SEEN AS A LEGITIMATE POLITICAL ACTOR?

>> I'LL RESPOND IN TWO WAYS.

THE FIRST IS THINK ABOUT THE PLAYERS ON THE BOARD AND WHO WOULD NEED TO MAKE THAT POSSIBLE.

HAMAS WOULD NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE ITS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS VIOLENCE, FOR THESE ATROCITIES AND TO KIND OF WALK AWAY FROM SOME OF THE OPEN ANTI-SEMITISM AND PROMISES TO WIPE OUT THE ENTIRE STATE OF ISRAEL THAT THEY'VE HAD.

I WAS STRUCK BY HOW MUCH U.S. OFFICIALS, SOURCES OF MINE, REACHED OUT AND WERE REALLY INTERESTED IN THIS PIECE, REALLY GRATEFUL THIS PIECE CAME OUT, REALLY CURIOUS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE THAT INTERACTION.

WHAT THEY THAT'S SAID TO ME IS THERE'S AN AWARENESS OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

THE PRECEDENT IS THERE, HAMAS IS PART OF THIS FABRIC AND WHAT CAN YOU DO.

THE OTHER PART IS JUST A READERSHIP RESPONSE WE'VE HAD.

THAT SAYS TO ME THAT THERE MAY BE A POSSIBILITY FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF CONVERSATION WITH THIS GROUP.

WE'VE HAD ONE OF THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF READER ENGAGEMENT OF ANY PIECE WE'VE HAD IN FIVE YEARS.

READERS HAVE GONE DEEP INTO THIS PIECE.

READERS HAVE GONE REALLY FAR DOWN, SOMETHING WE CAN TRACK, AND I THINK THEY ARE UNDERSTANDING AND SEEING THIS KIND OF ENGAGEMENT AND PRESENTATION OF THESE VIEWPOINTS WITH APPROPRIATE CONTEXT.

DO I THINK THAT'LL HAPPEN?

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

I WAS STRUCK BY HOW MUCH THE HAMAS FIGURES WERE PRESENTING THEMSELVES.

IN THEIR ARGUMENT, AT LEAST TEST IT.

THEY WERE SAYING, JUST TEST US.

TRY IT AND TEST IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> >> REALLY IMPORTANT WINDOW INTO THAT SIDE.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A SCULPTURE THAT CERTAINLY ISN'T GARBAGE BUT IS MADE FROM TRASH.

SADLY NEW YORKERS ARE USED TO SEEING GARBAGE ON THE STREET.

IN HONOR OF APRIL EARTH MONTH, A SCULPTURE URGES PEOPLE TO THINK MORE ABOUT THE TRASH WE GENERATE AND HOW WE CAN CUT DOWN.

THE ARTWORK CAN BE SEEN AT NEW YORK'S HIGH LINE.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.