What is Hamas Thinking Now? Journalist On Rare Interview w/ Top Hamas Leaders

>>> NEXT, CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN IZ RAIL AND HAMAS HAVE REACHED A DELICATE PHASE.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO MEDIATOR QATAR.

SIX MONTHS AFTER IT LAUNCH THAT HAD BRUTAL ATTACK MURDERING OVER 1,000 ISRAELIS.

WHAT ARE HAMAS' NEXT MOVES?

MICHELLE MARTIN SPOKE WITH AMED, HUFF POST SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT WHO'S INTERVIEWED TWO HAMAS LEADERS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE'RE VERY INTRIGUED BY THE PIECE YOU POSTED.

NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO HAMAS.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I HAD TO YOU IS WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA TO TRY TO GO TO SOME SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE LEADERSHIP?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO BEING BASED HERE IN D.C., WE GET TO HEAR A LOT FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SPOKESPEOPLE.

WE HAVE A LOT OF FOREIGN OFFICIALS COMING AND GOING.

BUT IF WE THINK ABOUT THE ISRAELI PALESTINIAN CONFLICT, HAMAS IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE STORY.

LIKE THEM, HATE THEM, DENOUNCE THEM, WHATEVER YOUR FEELINGS ARE, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM.

THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SET OFF THIS EPISODE OF FIGHTING, AND THEY ARE WHO ISRAEL IS IN GAZA WITH U.S. SUPPORT FIGHTING AS WE SPEAK TODAY.

SO MY EDITORS AND I IN THE FALL AND KIND OF WINTER DECIDED TO THINK HOW CAN WE TRY TO GET THAT PERSPECTIVE, TO FRAME IT IN A WA THAT INFORMS OUR AUDIENCE AND DOES SO RESPONSIBLY.

IT WAS QUITE A CHALLENGE ENDEAVOR, BOTH THE LOGISTIC OF IT AND THE KIND OF TAKING ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF TALKING TO THESE PEOPLE AND GIVING THEM A PLATFORM TO REACH A MAJOR AMERICAN AUDIENCE.

>> WELL, SAY A LITTLE MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK PEOPLE DO KNOW THAT HAMAS IS CONSIDERED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER GOVERNMENTS.

FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST QUESTION IS INTERVIEW ITSELF, WOULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO DO?

>> SO HAMAS, AS YOU MENTIONED, IS LISTED AS A TERROR ORGANIZATION BY THE U.S. AND EU.

IN FACT, A LOT OF AMERICANS CAN FACE LEGAL PENALTIES FOR ENGAGING WITH HAMAS TO SOME EXTENT.

THAT'S A REAL BARRIER AND SYSTEMIC RELUCTANCE TO ENGAGING WITH THEM.

FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, WE FELT THIS IS A VIEWPOINT THAT WE WANT TO NOT ONLY CONVENE, TO SOME EXTENT WE DO GET HAMAS MESSAGING.

WE GET THE DOCUMENTS AND STATEMENTS.

BUT WE WANT TO REALLY CHALLENGE IT AND PRESS IT AND ENGAGE WITH IT AND ASK THEM TOUGH QUESTIONS AND TAKE THAT HOUR OR TWO HOURS TO SIT WITH THEM AND SAY LET'S TALK ABOUT CIVILIANS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT MANY PALESTINIANS AREN'T SUPPORTIVE OF YOU.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT UNLESS YOU'RE HAVING A CONVERSATION OR DIALOGUE.

>> SO WHO DID YOU WISH TO SPEAK TO AND WHAT ROLE DID THEY TAKE IN THE HAMAS ORGANIZATION?

>> I WANTED EVERYONE, THE FORMER HEAD OF HAMAS, THE NEGOTIATOR, AND I WAS ABLE TO GET THE LATTER TWO WITH THE SECOND IN COMMAND OF HAMAS.

HE'S BEEN A MAJOR FIGURE.

ACTUALLY HAS BEEN IN THE U.S. FOR A WHILE AND VARIOUS COUNTRIES.

THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN CENTRAL TO THEIR OPERATIONS AND IS ACTUALLY DESIGNATED AS A TERRORIST BY THE U.S.

THE U.S. SAYS HE'S BEEN ONE OF THE CHIEF FUNDERS.

I ALSO SPOKE WITH HE WAS A MINISTER IN MA MASS' ADMINISTRATION.

HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN ARE IN GAZA.

HE HAPPENED TO BE OUT OF GAZA HE SAID ACCIDENTALLY IN HIS WORD PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7th AND HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO RETURN.

>> I HAVE TO START WITH OCTOBER 7th.

WHAT IS THEIR POINT OF VIEW ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH ON OCTOBER 7th, AND DO THEY THINK THEY ACCOMPLISHED IT?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST STRIKING THINGS.

OCTOBER 7th IS SUCH A TOUCH STONE OF TRAUMA FOR MANY PEOPLE FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, DESPITE EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED SINCE, WE'RE TALKING CLOSE TO 24,000 PALESTINIANS AT LEAST DEAD.

1,100 ISRAELIS, MANY HOSTAGES STILL LIVE UNDER HAMAS CONTROL.

HAMAS STILL BELIEVES IT WAS WORTH IT.

THEIR ARGUMENT IS WE WANTED TO DRAW BACK GLOBAL ATTENTION TO ISRAEL PAG DESIGN.

WE FELT IT WAS SLIPPING AWAY.

WE FELT THE U.S.

DIDN'T CARE ABOUT A RESOLUTION TO THIS CONFLICT, AND WE FELT LIKE WE REALLY NEEDED THIS KIND OF BIG EXPOSURE.

AND THEY'RE SAYING THIS ISN'T ABOUT OCTOBER 7th.

SPECIFICALLY THEY USE THIS PHRASE, HISTORY DIDN'T BEGIN ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS KIND OF OBVIOUSLY DECADES LONG ISRAELI POLICY OF SUBJECTING PALESTINIANS TO A LARGE DEGREE.

YOU'VE SEEN THESE RISING ATTACKS BY SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK, THIS KIND OF SENSE OF THE WINDOW IS CLOSING.

FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL PALESTINES.

SO FOR ALL WHAT THEY WOULD SEE AS COLLATERAL DAMAGE, AND IT'S A VERY HEAVY TOLL FOR ALL TO OF THAT, TO THEM IT'S STILL WORTH IT.

>> DID THEY AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THE OTHER GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THEY HIDE AMONG THE CIVILIAN POPULATION?

>> LOOK, WE ARE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS PLACE FROM 2006 ONWARDS, HAMAS WAS RUNNING GAZA.

HOTS OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, POLICE OFFICERS, ANYONE WHO'S IN THAT ADMINISTRATION IS HAMAS LINKED.

SO SAY THEY ARE HIDING WITHIN A CIVILIAN POPULATION -- >> THEIR ARGUMENT IS THEY ARE THE CIVILIAN POPULATION?

WERE THEY TRYING TO KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE?

WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT THAT.

>> I PRESSED THEM ON THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE YOU KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th WE KNOW WERE CIVILIANS.

THEIR ARGUMENT, AND IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO DENY THAT TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH SOME FOLKS ABROAD HAVE TRIED TO DO.

THEY'RE SAYING IT WAS CHAOS.

WE ONLY TARGETED MILITARY TARGETS.

WE DID NOT MEAN FOR CIVILIANS TO GET KILLED.

THEY'RE NOT DENYING THE MAJORITY WERE CIVILIANS.

>> SO THEY ACTUALLY SAY THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO KILL CIVILIANS?

THEY SAID IT WAS SOME SORT OF A LOGISTICAL OR TACTICAL BREAKDOWN OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE?

>> THE WAY WE PUT IT WAS TO SAY THEY DEFLECTED THE BLAME FROM THE ATTACKERS TO THE ATTACKED.

THEY SAY, ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEFENDING BETTER, AND BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT, ONCE THEY BROKE THROUGH, THAT'S WHY SO MANY TARGETS WERE ATTACKED.

THEY ARGUED AND THEY'RE TELLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

BUT THAT'S REALLY WHAT THEY ESTIMATE.

CERTAINLY WE KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT INITIALLY INVOLVED IN THE ATTACK FROM GAZA DID COME THROUGH INTO ISRAEL AND CARRY OUT SOME OF THE THOSE ATROCITY.

>> DO THEY ACKNOWLEDGE RAPING WOMEN AND USING SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A WAY OF WAR?

>> THEY ARE REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT SO FAR.

>> HOW DO THEY ACCOUNT FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES?

SURELY THEY HAVE LOST SOME OF THEIR OWN RELATIVES AND LOVED ONES.

>> MANY.

WE SAW HIS CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN THE ISRAELI STRIKE JUST LAST WEEK.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE I MET WHO WAS HELPING COORDINATE THE INTERVIEW.

HE SAID MY MOTHER WAS HIT BY SHRAPNEL, I LOST TWO NIECES.

IT'S SO STRIKING THEY'RE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

VISIBLY GENUINELY UPSET, AND THEN THEY'RE TELLING IT'S WORTH IT, AND THEY'RE TELLING WE THE PEOPLE OF GAZA KNEW WHAT WE WERE SIGNING UP FOR.

THERE'S A REAL ARGUMENT WE HAD THERE.

DID ALL THE PEOPLE OF GAZA AGREE TO HAVE THIS ATTACK?

BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TELLING.

THEY WANT TO SAY THIS OPERATION WAS WORTH IT, BUT IT DIDN'T GO THE WAY WE WANTED IT TO GO BECAUSE THERE WAS CHAOS, CIVILIANS WERE KILLED.

AND ALSO, SO MUCH OF THEIR MESSAGE, SO MUCH OF THAT BOLSTERING AND WHAT THEY SAID AND EVEN WHEN I PRESSED THEM WAS, WE ARE WILLING TO GO TO A NEGOTIATING TABLE.

THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST.

THEY'RE THEY'RE STANDING BY THIS IDEA THAT PALESTINE DOES NOT NEED TO EXIST.

THE FACT THAT THEY WERE SAYING THAT WITH THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE ATTACK IS AN ATTEMPT TO MODERATE FROM THEM.

WE DON'T WANT TO KEEP FIGHTING.

WE WERE USING THE PIECE.

AS RATIONAL TO SOME EXTENT.

>> TO THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THERE IS REALLY NO WAY TO KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE IN GAZA FEEL ABOUT THEIR LEADERSHIP SINCE THEY HAVE NOT HAD ELECTIONS SINCE, WHEN, 2006?

HOW DO THEY TALK ABOUT THAT?

I'LL TAKE A STEP BACK.

IN 2019, I WAS ABLE TO ACTUALLY REPORT FROM GAZA AND TALK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I WAS ABLE TO ACTUALLY BEFORE THE DISRUPTION AND KIND OF BE THAT HAMAS RULE AND TALK TO PEOPLE WHAT ABOUT THAT FELT LIKE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, YES, PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO VOTE.

WE HAVE HAD SURVEYS, WE HAVE HAD PEOPLE SPEAK UP AGAINST HAMAS RULE, AND THEY DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

I DID PRESS THEM ON A COUPLE OF SURVEYS AND I SAID, LOOK, I TALKED TO PEOPLE WHEN I WAS IN GAZA IN 2019 WHO SAID -- THIS ONE WOMAN, I'LL NEVER FORGET.

SHE SAID I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PRACTICE AS A LAWYER BECAUSE I REFUSE TO COVER MY HEAD IN -- THAT'S NOT MY BELIEF.

THEY SAY WE TOLERATE EVERYONE, AND WE UNDERSTAND DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES.

THEY ACCEPT THAT THEY DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL OR EITHER MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WHAT'S SO STRIKING IS THEY SAY -- AND THIS IS REALLY HARD TO DISPUTE -- POLLS IN THE WEST BANK IN GAZA DO SHOW THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS ARE SUPPORTIVE OF RESISTANCE.

THEY ARE SAYING WE THINK THE PALESTINIANS ARE SICK OF THE STATUS QUO, WANT TO SEE A CHANGE, AND WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE AGGRESSIVELY DOING SOMETHING TO CHANGE IT.

>> WHAT IS THEIR END GOAL OF HOW THIS CONFLICT ENDS?

ARE THEY WILLING TO FIGHT TO THE LAST PALESTINIAN?

>> I THINK THEY WOULD SAY NO.

I THINK THEY WOULD SAY IT'S NOT OUR POLICY THAT IS ABOUT FIGHTING, FIGHTING, FIGHTING.

THEY'RE ARGUING, ACKNOWLEDGE US, BRING US INTO A POLITICAL PROCESS, WHICH THE U.S. IS NOT WILLING TO DO.

THE PLO, THE PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION, IT'S BEEN CLEAR WE WILL NOT SEE HAMAS IN THAT PARTY AND WE WON'T DEAL WITH THEM.

THEY ARE SAYING WE ARE AN INDUCE -- INDUCE PUTABLE PART OF THE FABRIC.

EVEN ONES THEY HAVE HATED AND HAVE OPEN FIGHTING WITH.

AND THEY SAID, WELL, WE WANT TO REACH A DEAL AMONG THE PALESTINIANS, LET US DO THAT AND LET US NEGOTIATE.

ESSENTIALLY THEY'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T EXCLUDE US, SO THAT'S THE PART OF THE PARADIGM THAT NEEDS TO SHIFT.

I WAS ALSO STRUCK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT END GAME BY A SENSE OF URGENCY THEY SEEM TO FEEL IN TERMS OF -- IN THEIR FRAMING -- THAT ISRAEL IS GETTING MORE CONSERVATIVE AND RIGHT WING AND ESPECIALLY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, SUPPORT WITHIN ISRAEL FOR GIVING PALESTINIANS HAS DIMINISHED.

AND I DO THINK THERE WAS THIS KIND OF CONCERN ON THEIR SIDE GENUINE OR NOT, BUT CERTAINLY THEY WANT TO EXPRESS IT THAT THE WINDOW MAY BE CLOSING, ISRAEL MAY BE GETTING EVEN MORE HARD LINE, AND THEN WE'RE LOCKED INTO CONFLICT.

>> INTERESTING.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR TAKEAWAYS?

>> I WAS SHOCKED BY HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT U.S. AND ISRAELI POLITICS.

I DID NOT EXPECT THEM TO BE NAME CHECKING VARIOUS MEMBERS IN THE ISRAELI CABINET OR ASKING ME WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT LIKE THE YOUTH PROTESTING.

I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER INTERESTING PART OF HOW THEY SEE THEMSELVES AND WANT TO BE SEEN.

THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS A POLITICAL ACTOR.

YOU CAN ARGUE WE'RE NEVER GOING TO TOLERATE THAT.

THEY'VE DONE TOO MANY HORRIBLE ATROCITIES.

BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

WE WON'T BE SEEN AS PART OF A GLOBAL POLITICAL CONVERSATION, AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE TRACKING WHERE MIGHT BIDEN BE BECAUSE OF THE ELECTION, HOW IS HE REACTING TO VOTERS IN MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN.

>> YOU MEAN THEY HAD GRANULAR INTEREST IN SOME OF THE UNITED STATES.

I WOULD BE REMISS, THE HOSTAGES, WAS THAT ALWAYS PART OF THE PLAN?

>> YES.

>> WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

>> THAT WAS PART OF THE PLAN.

THEY TOLD ME AS MUCH.

AND THERE'S A HISTORY TO THAT.

SO OFTEN HAMAS AND OTHER PALESTINIAN MILITANT GROUPS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET A LOT OF PRISONERS BY TAKING A SMALL NUMBER OF ISRAELIS.

IN THEIR ARGUMENT, THEY WOULD SAY WE ONLY WANTED TO TAKE MILITARY HOSTAGES, ONLY SOLDIERS.

I PUSHED THEM ON HOW MANY HOSTAGES ARE STILL ALIVE.

IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION.

WE KNOW THERE'S MORE THAN 100 WHO ARE NOT BACK YET.

HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE ALIVE.

THEY TOLD ME AT THAT TIME, 40.

WE'VE NOW SEEN IN NEGOTIATIONS THAT MAYBE THEY ONLY HAVE UP TO 20.

I THINK SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS THEIR DEFINITION OF HOSTAGE AND WHO'S A CIVILIAN IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN ISRAEL.

>> THEY ARE CHILDREN TAKEN HOSTAGE.

ARE THEY NOT -- >> CHILDREN, OLDER PEOPLE, YES.

BUT THEY WERE CLASSIFIED EVEN AFTER TO BE DEEMED SOLDIERS, WHICH IS NOT A CLASSIFICATION THAT THE U.S. AND ISRAEL WOULD USE.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE TALKING AT CROSS WIRES IN THAT WAY.

>> I THINK THERE IS A HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE USED TERRORIST MEANS AND VIOLENCE TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GOALS BEING BROUGHT INTO GOVERNMENTS.

I THINK THAT WE SAW THAT IN NORTHERN IRELAND WHERE THE IRA HAS BECOME PART OF THE POLITICAL DIALOGUE ONCE THEY AGREE TO LAY DOWN ARMS.

WE'VE SEEN THAT IN COLUMBIA.

SO DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THERE IS A WAY THAT THIS GROUP, WHICH HAS COMMITTED ACTS OF TERRORISM, COULD BE PERSUADED TO MAKE SOME SORT OF A DEAL WHERE THEY LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING SEEN AS A LEGITIMATE POLITICAL ACTOR?

>> I'LL RESPOND IN TWO WAYS.

THE FIRST IS THINK ABOUT THE PLAYERS ON THE BOARD AND WHO WOULD NEED TO MAKE THAT POSSIBLE.

HAMAS WOULD NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE ITS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS VIOLENCE, FOR THESE ATROCITIES AND TO KIND OF WALK AWAY FROM SOME OF THE OPEN ANTI-SEMITISM AND PROMISES TO WIPE OUT THE ENTIRE STATE OF ISRAEL THAT THEY'VE HAD.

I WAS STRUCK BY HOW MUCH U.S. OFFICIALS, SOURCES OF MINE, REACHED OUT AND WERE REALLY INTERESTED IN THIS PIECE, REALLY GRATEFUL THIS PIECE CAME OUT, REALLY CURIOUS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE THAT INTERACTION.

WHAT THEY THAT'S SAID TO ME IS THERE'S AN AWARENESS OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

THE PRECEDENT IS THERE, HAMAS IS PART OF THIS FABRIC AND WHAT CAN YOU DO.

THE OTHER PART IS JUST A READERSHIP RESPONSE WE'VE HAD.

THAT SAYS TO ME THAT THERE MAY BE A POSSIBILITY FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF CONVERSATION WITH THIS GROUP.

WE'VE HAD ONE OF THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF READER ENGAGEMENT OF ANY PIECE WE'VE HAD IN FIVE YEARS.

READERS HAVE GONE DEEP INTO THIS PIECE.

READERS HAVE GONE REALLY FAR DOWN, SOMETHING WE CAN TRACK, AND I THINK THEY ARE UNDERSTANDING AND SEEING THIS KIND OF ENGAGEMENT AND PRESENTATION OF THESE VIEWPOINTS WITH APPROPRIATE CONTEXT.

DO I THINK THAT'LL HAPPEN?

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

I WAS STRUCK BY HOW MUCH THE HAMAS FIGURES WERE PRESENTING THEMSELVES.

IN THEIR ARGUMENT, AT LEAST TEST IT.

THEY WERE SAYING, JUST TEST US.

TRY IT AND TEST IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> >> REALLY IMPORTANT WINDOW INTO THAT SIDE.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A SCULPTURE THAT CERTAINLY ISN'T GARBAGE BUT IS MADE FROM TRASH.

SADLY NEW YORKERS ARE USED TO SEEING GARBAGE ON THE STREET.

IN HONOR OF APRIL EARTH MONTH, A SCULPTURE URGES PEOPLE TO THINK MORE ABOUT THE TRASH WE GENERATE AND HOW WE CAN CUT DOWN.

THE ARTWORK CAN BE SEEN AT NEW YORK'S HIGH LINE.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.