April 23, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I'M CONFIDENT THAT IMPLEMENTING THESE ACCOMMODATIONS WILL HELP UNRWA FULFILL ITS MANDATE.

>> AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW TO UNRWA FINDS ITS NEUTRALITY MUST BE STRENGTHENED.

FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER CATHERINE COLONNA WHO LED THE REVIEW JOINS ME.

>>> AND -- A REPORT ON THE OVERWHELMING GRIEF AS HUNDREDS OF BODIES ARE UNCOVERED IN KHAN YOUNIS.

>>> PLUS, BEHIND BARS AND ON HUNGER STREET.

NAGORNO-KARABAKH'S FORMER LEADER REMAINS IMPRISONED AFTER AS BAYAN TOOK CONTROL OF THE ENCLAVE IN SEPTEMBER.

HIS SON JOINS ME TO DISCUSS THIS FORGOTTEN INMATE.

>>> ALSO DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN ON HER HUSBAND'S FINAL YEARS, THEIR OWN LOVE AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO INFLUENTIAL AMERICAN LEADERS.

>>> AND FINALLY -- ♪♪ -- CULTURE, PATRIOTISM, AND PRIDE THROUGH MUSIC.

I SIT DOWN WITH THE FIRST UKRAINIAN MAESTRO AT THE NEW YORK METROPOLITAN OPERA, OKSANA LYNIV.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE DESPERATE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA IS FUELING PROTESTS AROUND THE WORLD.

RIGHT NOW, MOST DRAMATICALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE COLLEGE CAMPUSES ARE IN SOME TURMOIL AS PROTESTS, ARRESTS, AND CRACKDOWNS ESCALATE AND SPREAD FROM COLUMBIA TO OTHER IVY LEAGUES AND UNIVERSITIES ON BOTH COASTS.

SUPPORT FOR THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE HAS PICKED UP PACE, WHILE SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL HAS SEEN A BIG DROP IN YOUNG ADULTS, FROM 64% IN 2023 TO 38% LAST MONTH.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE LATEST GALLUP POLL.

NOW THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS IT IN NORTHERN GAZA FAMINE HAS SET IN.

AMIDST THIS CRISIS, THE U.S., THE UK AND OTHERS ARE STILL WITHHOLDING FUNDING TO UNRWA, THE MAIN RELIEF AGENCY THERE AFTER ISRAEL SAID SOME UNRWA STAFF MEMBERS TOOK PART IN THE HAMAS ATROCITIES OF OCTOBER 7th.

THE U.N. IS INVESTIGATING THAT, BUT IN A SEPARATE INDEPENDENT REVIEW HEADED UP BY FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER CATHERINE COLONNA, THERE IS A CONCLUSION THAT UNRWA'S NEUTRALITY MUST BE STRENGTHENED.

AND SHE JOINED ME FROM NEW YORK TO DISCUSS HER FINDINGS.

CATHERINE COLONNA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO IT IS PROBABLY NOT AN EXAGGERATION TO SAY THAT A LOT OF CONCERNED PARTIES HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS REPORT.

I WOULD LIKE TO START BY CONFIRMING THAT WHAT IT ISN'T.

IT IS NOT AN INVESTIGATION INTO ISRAEL'S SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A NUMBER OF UNRWA STAFF TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 7th.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YES, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

THESE ALLEGATIONS, THEY WERE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS ARE TAKEN CARE OF BY THE SPECIALIZED UNIT INSIDE THE UNITED NATIONS CALLED THE OIOS.

OUR REVIEW IS A SEPARATE REVIEW, AND THE TASK WAS TO ASSESS WHETHER UNRWA DOES ANYTHING IN ITS POWER TO ENSURE NEUTRALITY, TO RESPOND TO ALLEGATIONS OF BREACHES OR FORMER BREACHES WHEN THEY OCCUR AND TO OF COURSE MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS.

IT'S A SEPARATE TASK.

IT'S A DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATION.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING IT CLEAR, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE CONFUSING THE TWO.

TWO TRACKS.

THIS IS ONE PART, AND THE OTHER ONE IS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION BY THE UNITED NATIONS.

>> SO TELL ME WHAT YOU FOUND.

WHAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT FINDING OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS?

WAS IT ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, THEIR DEDICATION TO NEUTRALITY, THEIR IMPLEMENTATION OF NEUTRALITY?

WHAT DID YOU FIND SPECIFICALLY?

AND WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND ON THAT FRONT?

>> WELL, I'D SAY THE OVERALL EVALUATION IS THAT THE SYSTEM'S IN PLACE, THE MECHANISMS, THE PROCEDURES, THE DOCUMENTS, EVERYTHING THAT STAFF HAS TO ABIDE BY WITHIN UNRWA IS A VERY STRONG, SOLID, AND QUITE EXTENSIVE SET OF RULES, PROBABLY MORE THAN FOR ANY OTHER U.N. ORGANIZATION OR U.N. AGENCY.

THIS IS BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE UNIQUE MISSION THAT THEY HAVE AND THE VERY COMPLEX SITUATION WITHIN WHICH THEY OPERATE.

MAKES IT NECESSARY TO HAVE SUCH A STRONG SET OF RULES.

NEVERTHELESS, CONSIDERING ALL THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY FACE BECAUSE OF THAT SITUATION, BECAUSE OF THAT COMPLEXITY, NOT TO MENTION THE ONGOING CRISIS FOR THE LAST SIX MONTHS, MAKES THAT SO MANY CHALLENGES FOR NEUTRALITY ARISE THAT SOME IMPROVEMENT MAY BE NEEDED, IN MY OPINION IS NEEDED.

AND THIS IS WHY WE MADE 15 RECOMMENDATIONS ACROSS EIGHT MAJOR AREAS, GOING FROM, YOU KNOW, STAFF NEUTRALITY TO INSULATIONS NEUTRALITY TO STAFF UNIONS, WHICH IS A BIG QUESTION, OR EDUCATION.

EIGHT PILLARS, FUTURE RECOMMENDATIONS.

WE WANT TO BE CLEAR, CLEAR, DIRECT UP TO THE POINT FOR HELPING UNRWA IMPLEMENTING THESE 15 RECOMMENDATIONS TO BETTER DELIVER ON ITS MISSION AND TO BETTER ADDRESS THE QUESTION, THE DIFFICULT QUESTION OF HOW TO MAINTAIN NEUTRALITY IN SUCH AN ENVIRONMENT.

>> SO LET ME READ JUST A LITTLE BIT FROM THE FINAL REPORT.

QUOTE, DESPITE THIS ROBUST FRAMEWORK, NEUTRALITY-RELATED ISSUES PERSIST.

THEY INCLUDE INSTANCES OF STAFF PUBLICLY EXPRESSING POLITICAL VIEWS, HOST COUNTRY TEXTBOOKS WITH PROBLEMATIC CONTENT BEING USED IN SOME UNRWA SCHOOLS, AND POLITICIZED STAFF UNIONS MAKING THREATS AGAINST UNRWA MANAGEMENT AND CAUSING OPERATIONAL DISRUPTIONS.

CAN YOU JUST ADDRESS THOSE THREE POINTS THAT YOU'VE LAID OUT IN THAT PARAGRAPH AND WHAT YOU RECOMMEND.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THESE HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

THIS IS NOT NEW ACTUALLY, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR THE STAFF, AND MOST OF THE STAFF IS LOCAL STAFF TO BE, YOU KNOW, ABSOLUTELY NEUTRAL IN SUCH A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT.

BUT THEY HAVE TO AS U.N. EMPLOYEES, THEY HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE PRINCIPLE OF NEUTRALITY FOR THE SAKE OF HELPING THE AGENCY TO DELIVER ON ITS MISSION.

THIS IS A BUILT IN PRECONDITION.

SOMETIMES THEY FAIL TO DO THAT.

THE ISSUE OF TEXTS WAS A LONG-STANDING ISSUE THERE HAVE BEEN IMPROVEMENTS IN THE RECENT YEARS, AND THEY ARE WELCOME, BUT THEY MUST GO ON.

THERE IS A MARGINAL PERCENTAGE OF THE CONTENTS WITHIN TEXTBOOKS THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE WHETHER IT'S PROMOTING HATRED OR INCITATION TO VIOLENCE OR SOMETIMES ANTISEMITISM.

THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN AN UNRWA SCHOOL.

THIS IS NOT WHAT KIDS TO BE TAUGHT ANYWAYS.

WE RECOMMEND STOP USING SUCH TOXIC MATERIAL AND TO REFORM THE TEXTBOOKS AS NECESSARY WITH THE P.A., WITH THE HOST COUNTRIES.

AND THE ISSUE OF SUBUNION CAUSING SOMETIMES OPERATION DECEPTIONS OF FACTS TO THE MANAGEMENT IS ANOTHER WELL-KNOWN ISSUE.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN.

BUT IT IS SO UNACCEPTABLE.

AND THIS IS NOT THE ROLE OF A STAFF UNION.

STAFF UNIONS REPRESENT THE STAFF, THE INTERESTS OF THE STAFF, THE PROTECTION OF THE STAFF, NOT TURNING TO POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS OR BEING INFLUENCED BY POLITICAL FACTIONS.

AND SOMETIMES ARMED GROUPS OR TAKING SIDES INTO OTHER ACTIVITIES.

THEY SHOULD REFORM THE STAFF UNION SYSTEM WITHIN UNRWA JUST TO ALIGN IT TO REST OF THE U.N. STAFF UNION SYSTEM.

SO THIS IS A RECOMMENDATION WE MADE, AMONG SO MANY.

>> SO THE UNRWA CHIEF, PHILIPPE LAZZARINI SAYS HE WELCOMES THE FINDINGS AND THE RECOMMENDATIONS.

HE POSTED THE FOLLOWING, SAFEGUARDING THE AGENCY'S NEUTRALITY IS CENTRAL TO OUR ABILITY TO CONTINUE DELIVERING LIFE-SAVING AID IN GAZA, PLUS EDUCATION AND PRIMARY HEALTH SERVICES ACROSS THE REGION.

THE REPORT CONFIRMS THAT THE AGENCY HAS THE SYSTEMS IN PLACE AND THAT IT ACTS TO ADDRESS ALLEGATIONS OF NEUTRALITY BREACHES.

SO HAVE YOU FOUND UNRWA FORTHCOMING AND AGREEING THAT SOME OF THESE ISSUES DO NEED TO BE FURTHER TAKEN CARE OF?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE WERE GIVEN THIS MISSION.

AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, WHEN SUPPORT FOR UNRWA IS NEEDED MOST, FINANCIAL AND POLITICAL SUPPORT FROM MEMBER STATES, FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WHAT UNRWA DOES IS ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE AND IRREPLACEABLE.

IN THE ABSENCE OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION, UNRWA, THE MISSION OF UNRWA IS TO DELIVER SERVICES TO PALESTINE REFUGEES.

AND NOBODY ELSE IS DOING IT.

FOR THE TIME BEING, AT LEAST, THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WITH THE CAPACITY ON THE GROUND TO DELIVER THOSE BASIC SUBSTANCES, HEALTH, EDUCATION, BASIC DAY TO DAY SERVICES FOR A POPULATION IN NEED.

SO THIS IS THE GLOBAL PICTURE.

WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT FACT.

IT IS A FACT.

IT IS A REALITY.

AND IF YOU MISS, TO REPEAT AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT FACT, YOU MISS THE GLOBAL PICTURE.

WITHIN THE PICTURES, THERE ARE SOME CHALLENGES, AND THERE ARE SOME -- TO ADDRESS THESE CHALLENGES.

IMPLEMENTING THESE IMPLEMENTATIONS WILL HELP THE ORGANIZATION TO DELIVER.

AND I WAS EXTREMELY PLEASED TO SEE FIRST THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE UNITED NATIONS YESTERDAY WELCOMING ALL THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE REPORT AND ENDORSING THEM, YOU KNOW, FULLY, AND REQUESTING THE COMMISSIONER GENERAL PHILIPPE LAZZARINI TO DO THE SAME AND TO PRESENT A PLAN OF IMPLEMENTATION.

AND THIS IS WHAT IT WILL DO.

IT REACTED VERY QUICKLY.

IT REACTED POSITIVELY, IS WORKING ON IT, AND IF I CAUGHT HIM CORRECTLY, HE SAYS HE WILL WELCOME IT WITHOUT DELAY.

>> CATHERINE COLONNA, LET ME JUST READ YOU WHAT THE SO FAR THE ONLY PUBLIC RESPONSE FROM ISRAEL HAS BEEN.

THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS SPOKESMAN ON A POST.

"THE PROBLEM WITH UNRWA GAZA ISN'T THAT OF A FEW BAD APPLES.

IT IS A ROTTEN AND POISONOUS TREE WHOSE ROOTS ARE HAMAS.

THE REPORT IGNORES THE SEVERITY OF THE PROBLEM AND OFFERS COSMETIC SOLUTIONS THAT DO NOT DEAL WITH THE ENORMOUS SCOPE OF HAMAS INFILTRATION OF UNRWA.

THIS IS NOT WHAT A GENUINE AND THOROUGH REVIEW LOOKS LIKE THIS.

IS WHAT AN EFFORT TO AVOID THE PROBLEM AND NOT ADDRESS IT HEAD-ON LOOKS LIKE.

WHAT IS YOUR COMMENT TO THAT?

>> WELL, WE'VE ALREADY HEARD THAT WHEN WE VISITED ISRAEL.

I'VE BEEN THERE AND BEING ELSEWHERE IN THE REGION.

BY THE WAY, WE HAD FULL COOPERATION FROM ISRAEL AND FROM ALL PARTIES, AND I THANK THEM.

IT HELPED US DURING OUR REVIEW AND OUR REPORT.

THE PUBLIC VIEWS OF THE GOVERNOR OF ISRAEL ARE WHAT YOU JUST QUOTED.

IT IS PUBLIC.

IT IS WELL-KNOWN.

THEY HAVE STRONG VIEWS ABOUT UNRWA.

I JUST ADD THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DO NOT SHARE THE VIEWS, AND I DO NOT EITHER BASED ON THE FACT THAT UNRWA DELIVERS AN INDISPENSABLE AND IRREPLACEABLE SERVICE, I REPEAT, BASED ON ITS MANDATE BY THE 1949 RESOLUTION.

NOW YOU CAN SAY WELL, 75 YEARS LATER, WE'RE STILL THERE.

YES, VERY UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE STILL THERE.

AND A POLITICAL SOLUTION WOULD BE THE BEST SOLUTION TO MOVE AHEAD AND HAVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION ENSURING PEACE AND SECURITY FOR BOTH PEOPLE.

ISRAEL SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR.

SO BEYOND HELPING UNRWA IN ITS MISSION, REALLY, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD WORK HARDER FOR POLITICAL SOLUTION.

IT IS URGENTLY NEEDED.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD LOOK FOR.

>> FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER CATHERINE COLONNA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

>>> MEANTIME, THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT THE CONFLICT IN GAZA IN ITS ANNUAL REPORT ON HUMAN RIGHTS.

ANTONY BLINKEN CALLED IT, QUOTE, DEEPLY TROUBLING AND NOTED ALLEGATIONS OF WAR CRIMES BY BOTH ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

THIS COMES AS A MASS GRAVE CONTAINING OVER 300 BODIES HAS BEEN UNCOVERED AT NASSER HOSPITAL IN KHAN YOUNIS.

CORRESPONDENT NADA BASHIR REPORTS ON THE INTENSE GRIEF AMONGST THE SURVIVORS, AND OF COURSE, THIS STORY IS DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

[ CRYING ] >> Reporter: FOR THE LAST TEN DAYS, THIS MOTHER HAS RETURNED TO GAZA'S NASSER HOSPITAL, SEARCHING DESPERATELY FOR THE BODY OF HER 24-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER.

SHE HAD BEEN BURIED AT THIS MAKESHIFT GRAVE SITE IN JANUARY.

NOW HER BODY IS MISSING.

"THE ISRAELIS TURNED THE HOSPITAL UPSIDE DOWN," SHE SAYS.

"THEY DUG UP ALL THE DEAD BODIES AND MOVED THEM AROUND."

THESE ARE THE SHROUDED CORPSES OF THOSE RETRIEVED FROM A NEWLY DISCOVERED MASS GRAVE IN KHAN YOUNIS.

MORE THAN 300 BODIES HAVE BEEN RECOVERED SO FAR, ACCORDING TO GAZA'S CIVIL DEFENSE.

BUT THE SEARCH IS STILL ONGOING.

>> Translator: THIS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, THIS DOCTOR SAYS.

HOW COULD THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION FORCES DIG UP THE GRAVES AND MISHANDLE THE BODIES OF OUR MARTYRS?

IN SOME CASES THEY EVEN OPENED AND REMOVED THE BODIES FROM THEIR BAGS, EVEN THOUGH THEIR NAMES HAD BEEN MARKED ON THEM.

MANY OF THE BODIES RECOVERED HERE WERE BURIED BY RELATIVES OR MEDICS ON THE HOSPITAL'S GROUNDS IN JANUARY AS A TEMPORARY MEASURE.

ISRAEL'S RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT OF THE SOUTHERN CITY MAKING IT TOO DIFFICULT TO CARRY OUT A TRADITIONAL BURIAL.

FOLLOWING THE IDF'S WITHDRAWAL FROM KHAN YOUNIS, FAMILIES RETURNED IN THE HOPE OF FINALLY LAYING THEIR LOVED ONES TO REST.

ONLY TO FIND THAT THEIR BODIES HAD BEEN EXHUMED BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY, ACCORDING TO CIVIL DEFENSE OFFICIALS, AND DISCARDED IN THIS NEARBY MASS GRAVE.

"I STILL HAVEN'T FOUND MY SON HALIL'S BODY," THIS FATHER SAYS.

"WE'D BURDEN HIM OVER THERE, BUT WE CAN'T FIND HIM ANYMORE.

WE JUST WANT TO GIVE HIM A DIGNIFIED BURIAL."

ACCORDING TO GAZA'S CIVIL DEFENSE CHIEF, SOME BODIES HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED WITH THEIR HANDS TIED TOGETHER.

AN INDICATION, HE SAYS, THAT THESE MAY BE THE VICTIMS OF ALLEGED FIELD EXECUTIONS.

THOUGH CNN IS UNABLE TO VERIFY SUCH CLAIMS AND CANNOT CONFIRM THE CAUSES OF DEATH AMONG THE BODIES BEING UNEARTHED.

BUT THIS WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST TIME GRAVES HAVE BEEN DISTURBED BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

THE IDF PREVIOUSLY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT ITS FORCES HAVE EXHUMED GRAVES IN GAZA IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT DNA TESTS TO IDENTIFY POTENTIAL HOSTAGES.

THIS MAN POINTS TO THE PALM TREE BESIDE WHICH HIS BROTHER HAD BEEN BURIED.

TWO WEEKS ON, AND HIS BODY HAS STILL NOT BEEN FOUND.

UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, GRAVES MUST IN TIMES OF WAR BE RESPECTED, PROPERLY MAINTAINED AND MARKED SO THEY MAY ALWAYS BE FOUND.

BUT IN GAZA, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ROBBED OF THEIR DIGNITY.

EVEN IN DEATH.

>> NADA BASHIR REPORTING THERE.

AND THE IDF SAYS THE CLAIM THAT ISRAELI TROOPS BURIED SCORES OF PALESTINIAN BODIES IN A MASS GRAVE IS, QUOTE, BASELESS AND UNFOUNDED, SAYING BODIES BURIED AT NASSER HOSPITAL WERE EXAMINED AND RETURNED TO THEIR PLACE.

OF COURSE, IN ADDITION, THE HORRIFIC AND SOARING DEATH TOLL INFLICTED ON PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, WE REMEMBER THAT ESTIMATED -- AN ESTIMATED 133 ISRAELI HOSTAGES REMAIN IN HAMAS CAPTIVITY THERE.

WITH THE EYES OF THE WORLD ON THE MIDDLE EAST, WE TURN NOW TO A FORGOTTEN CONFLICT AND ITS AFTERMATH.

FOR DECADES, THE ETHNIC ARMENIAN ENCLAVE OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH RESISTED RULE BY AZERBAIJAN.

THEN LAST SEPTEMBER, AZERBAIJAN SURPRISED THE WORLD BY TAKING CONTROL OF THE ENCLAVE IN JUST ONE DAY.

A SEEMINGLY INTRACTABLE CONFLICT SUDDENLY ENDED BY FORCE, RESULTING IN MASS DISPLACEMENT.

MORE THAN 100,000 PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO FLEE INTO ARMENIA.

A FEW WERE DETAINED, INCLUDING THE FORMER LEADER OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH, RUBEN VARDANYAN.

ONCE A WEALTHY OLIGARCH WITH CLOSE TIES TO VLADIMIR PUTIN, VARDANYAN RENOUNCED HIS RUSSIAN CITIZENSHIP IN 2022 AND MOVED TO NAGORNO-KARABAKH, BECOMING THE EQUIVALENT OF PRIME MINISTER.

NOW HE'S BEHIND BARS IN BAKU, AZERBAIJAN ACCUSES HIM OF FINANCING TERRORISM.

HE'S GONE ON HUNGER STRIKE, PROTESTING THE DELAY OF HIS TRIAL.

TODAY IT'S ANNOUNCED THAT ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN WILL START FIXING THEIR BORDERS AS PART OF NORMALIZATION EFFORTS.

TOMORROW IS REMEMBRANCE DAY, AMID THE BIGGEST DISPLACEMENT OF ARMENIANS SINCE THE GENOCIDE 109 YEARS AGO.

RUBEN VARDANYAN'S SON DAVID IS JOINING ME NOW FROM DUBAI.

DAVID, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

WE'RE DISCUSSING A CRUCIAL PART OF ESSENTIALLY CENTRAL ASIA AND YOUR FATHER'S PREDICAMENT.

SO START OFF BY TELLING ME WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HEARD ANY NEWS, WHAT IS HIS CONDITION, PARTICULARLY SINCE STARTING A HUNGER STRIKE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE, FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY.

IT MEANS A LOT FOR US AS A FAMILY, BUT ALSO FOR ALL THE ARMENIANS WHO HAVE SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF OPPRESSORS 109 YEARS AGO, AND UNFORTUNATELY THIS HAS HAPPENED AGAIN IN THE 21st CENTURY.

SO IT TRULY MEANS A LOT FOR YOU TO PROVIDE US A PLATFORM FOR US TO SPEAK.

MY FATHER, RUBEN VARDANYAN, WAS ILLEGALLY DETAINED OVER 200 DAYS AGO NOW, AND BEFORE THAT SUFFERED A NINE-MONTH BLOCKADE TOGETHER WITH 120,000 ETHNIC ARMENIANS.

PERSONALLY, HAVE I ONLY SPOKEN WITH HIM ONCE SINCE HIS DETAINMENT IN NOVEMBER.

HOWEVER, PREVIOUSLY, HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO CALL MY MOTHER ONCE A WEEK EVERY TUESDAY.

HOWEVER, SINCE APRIL 2nd, WE HAVE NOT HEARD HIS VOICE AND GROW INCREASINGLY ALARMED ABOUT HIS CONDITION, CONSIDERING HIS PROMINENCE AS AN ARMENIAN PHILANTHROPIST AND HIS OUTSPOKEN POSITION ON THE RIGHTS OF 120,000 ETHNIC ARMENIANS OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, AND TRAGICALLY WE FOUND OUT HE HAD BEEN IN A HUNGER STRIKE SINCE APRIL 5th ONLY AT THE END OF LAST WEEK WITH MY FATHER CLEARLY DENIED ANY CONTACT WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD, WE BELIEVE SPECIFICALLY FOR THE REASON TO SILENCE HIS PROTEST, WHICH IS THE REASON WHY HE LAUNCHED THE HUNGER STRIKE.

HOWEVER, WE HAD ON SATURDAY HIS SISTER, MY AUNT HAD RECEIVED A PHONE CALL VERY UNUSUAL ON A WEEKEND FROM HIM WHERE HE SAID THINGS THAT WERE EVEN MORE CONCERNING TO US, NAMELY, THAT HE HAD BEEN MOVED TO A FULL ISOLATION CELL, MEANING HIS CONDITIONS OF IMPRISONMENT HAVE EVEN WORSENED SINCE BEFORE HE STARTED HIS HUNGER STRIKE.

SECONDLY, HE TOLD HER THAT HE HAS ONLY HIS BLOOD PRESSURE MEASURED ONCE A DAY, MEANING, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ON A HUNGER STRIKE FOR ALMOST 20 DAYS NOW, WE CAN NOTE EVEN CALL THIS ANY MEDICAL TREATMENT THAT HE IS PROVIDED.

AND FINALLY, HE SAID AT THE END OF THE PHONE CALL A PHRASE THAT REALLY, REALLY TROUBLED US WHERE HE SAID THAT HE UNDERSTOOD THE LAUREATES OF THE AURORA PRIZE WHICH HE COFOUNDED MUCH BETTER, ALL THOSE WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES TO SAVE OTHERS.

AND HE SAID "NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT VALUES AND PRINCIPLES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN LIFE ITSELF."

>> SO THAT TROUBLED YOU BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT HE WAS TELEGRAPHING THAT HIS LIFE IS IN DANGER?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

AND WE BELIEVE THAT KNOWING MY FATHER RUBEN, HE HAS ALWAYS STOOD UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE ETHNIC ARMENIANS THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN HIS CORE BELIEF THAT AZERBAIJAN AND ARMENIA ARE NEIGHBORS, OF COURSE, AND WE MUST CO-EXIST TOGETHER, BUT IT CANNOT HAPPEN WHEN ONE IS THE OPPRESSOR AND THE OTHER IS THE OPPRESSED.

AND HIS FIGHT FOR THE RIGHTS OF THOSE ETHNIC ARMENIANS WHO HAVE BECOME REFUGEES IN A MATTER OF DAYS, AS YOU SAID PREVIOUSLY, BE A MATTER THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS OWN LIFE, THAT HE IS WILLING TO DIE FOR.

>> I MEAN, IT'S OBVIOUSLY VERY DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS AND COME TO TERMS WITH THAT.

BUT JUST TO PUT WHAT THE AZERBAIJANIS SAY, HE WAS CHARGED WITH FINANCING TERRORISM AND ESTABLISHING ARMED GROUPS.

BUT HE HIMSELF IS DEMANDING A SPEEDY AND TRANSPARENT TRIAL.

WE DID TRY TO CONTACT -- WE DID CONTACT THE AZERBAIJAN EMBASSY, BUT HAVEN'T HEARD BACK FROM THEM.

WHAT IS THE STATUS?

HE HAS OBVIOUSLY GONE ON HUNGER STRIKE OVER THE FACT THAT THE TRIAL IS -- WHERE IS IT?

IS THERE ANY TRIAL?

HAS IT STARTED?

WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THAT?

>> CHRISTIANE, THIS IS WHAT CONCERNS US SO MUCH THAT THERE HAS BEEN A COMPLETE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY ON THE PROCESS THAT IS ONGOING.

SO HE HAS BEEN ACCUSED WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OR ANY PROOF OF REALLY SERIOUS CRIMES, ALTHOUGH EVERYONE KNOWS HE HAS BEEN A PHILANTHROPIST HIS WHOLE LIFE, HE HAS INVESTED OVER $1.5 BILLION TOGETHER WITH HIS PARTNERS IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ARMENIA.

AND ACTUALLY, HUMANITARIAN PROJECTS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND ACTUALLY, HE EVEN INVESTED NOT ONLY IN THE RESTORATION OF CHURCHES AND CULTURAL MONUMENTS, BUT ALSO A SHIA MOSQUE WHICH SHOWS HIS PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE.

HE BELIEVED THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE PEACE IS TO RESPECT EACH OTHER'S CULTURES AND HISTORIES.

HOWEVER, ABOUT HIS PROCESS, UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE PROSECUTION'S OFFICE.

THE TRIAL WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN JANUARY.

HOWEVER, ARBITRARILY, THE TRIAL DATE WAS MOVED AGAIN.

AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN MAY NOW.

HOWEVER, AS WE UNDERSTAND, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEES THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE A TRIAL IN MAY AS WELL, BECAUSE IT CAN BE UNILATERALLY POSTPONED.

A AND THE DEMAND THAT OUR FAMILY HAS IS, A, THAT ALL ARMENIAN PRISONERS ARE RELEASED, BUT IF THE TRIAL DOES HAPPEN, THAT HE DID NOT RECOGNIZE, BUT IF IT DOES HAPPEN, IT MUST HAPPEN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE WE BELIEVE HE IS INNOCENT OF ANY CRIMES THAT HE IS TOLD ABOUT.

AND FINALLY, THAT IT HAS TO HAVE INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER HAS A COMPLICATED PAST.

LET'S JUST PUT IT IN CONTEXT.

AZERBAIJAN BACKED BY TURKEY.

ARMENIA BACKED BY RUSSIA AND THE PREVIOUS SOVIET UNION.

THIS, YOU KNOW, TAKEOVER OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH BY AZERBAIJAN HAPPENED WITH NO RESISTANCE AND NO OPPOSITION FROM PUTIN.

BUT YOUR DAD DID HAVE -- WAS SAID TO BE CLOSE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN, EVEN THOUGH HE RENOUNCED HIS RUSSIAN CITIZENSHIP IN 2022.

AND AS YOU KNOW, HE IS -- HAS BEEN PLACED ON THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT'S LIST OF SANCTIONED PEOPLE BECAUSE OF HIS ROLE AS A BOARD MEMBER IN A RUSSIAN AIR CARGO COMPANY.

SO THESE ARE ALL, YOU KNOW, COMPLICATED LINKS.

DO YOU THINK ANY OF THAT LED TO, YOU KNOW, HIM BEING PERSECUTED BY ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAD POLITICAL OR OTHER ISSUES WITH HIM?

>> YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE CONFLICT AND THE WAR THAT HAPPENED IN 2020, MY FATHER HAD ALWAYS STAYED OUT OF POLITICS AND WAS A BUSINESSMAN FIRST AND THEN A PHILANTHROPIST, AS I SAID WHO COFOUNDED INTERNATIONAL PRIZES SUCH AS THE AURORA HUMANITARIAN OOH INITIATIVE, UNITED COLLEGE IN ARMENIA AS WELL.

AND HE WAS NEVER INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING IN ANY OF THE POLITICAL SITUATIONS THAT WERE HAPPENING THERE.

HOWEVER, FOR HIM, THE RED LINE, AS HE SAID, WAS THE SUFFERING OF THE 120,000 ARMENIANS WHO WERE BASICALLY ABANDONED BY THE WORLD AFTER THE 2020 WAR.

AND HE SAW THAT THE SITUATION WAS SO DIRE THAT HE RISKED EVERYTHING THAT HE HAD, INCLUDING HIS OWN SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF HIS FAMILY TO MOVE TO ARTSA.

WHEN I SPOKE WITH HIM LAST IN AUGUST 2022 IN PERSON, I COULD SEE THAT IT WAS A COMPLETELY EMOTIONAL AND IN SOME WAYS DECISION THAT WAS MOTIVATED COMPLETELY BY HIS VALUES.

>> DAVID, I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT THAT YOU -- EVERY TIME I SAY NAGORNO-KARABAKH, YOU USE THE LOCAL WORD FOR IT, JUST IN CASE PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED ABOUT THAT.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

DAVID IGNATIUS IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" LAST MONTH SAID THE UNITED STATES IS FOCUSED ON A BROADER PEACE DEAL BETWEEN ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN.

ALSO HE NOTES IT'S CAUGHT IN A DIFFICULT POSITION, QUOTE, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, LOOK ITS PREDECESSORS HAS BEEN CAUGHT BETWEEN SYMPATHY FOR THE ARMENIAN CAUSE AND ITS TIES TO TURKEY, A NATO ALLY, AND TO AZERBAIJAN, A USEFUL PARTNER AGAINST IRAN.

DO YOU AGREE THAT PART OF YOUR PERSONAL AND FAMILY DILEMMA IS CAUGHT UP IN THIS REAL POLITIC SO TO SPEAK?

>> YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, WE LIVE IN SUCH A COMPLICATED WORLD TODAY.

NOT JUST IN THE SOUTH CAUCUSES, BUT AS YOU HIGHLIGHT AS WELL, AROUND THE WORLD.

IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE FACING A NEW CRISIS EVERY WEEK.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT OBVIOUSLY GEOPOLITICS IS COMING TO THE FOREFRONT.

HOWEVER, IT IS MY SINCERE HOPE THAT WE DO NOT ABANDON OUR, YOU KNOW, SEARCH FOR VALUES AND OUR STRIVE TO PRESERVE HUMAN RIGHTS AND BASIC PRINCIPLES, DESPITE ALL THE DIFFICULTIES THAT WE'RE FACING TODAY.

AND THE SAME GOES FOR THE DISCUSSIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING BETWEEN ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN.

I BELIEVE THAT THE ISSUE OF THE ARMENIAN PRISONERS, NOT JUST MY FATHER, BUT SEVEN OTHER POLITICAL PRISONERS AND ALSO COUNTLESS OTHER PRISONERS OF WAR WHO ARE BEING HELD IN BAKU, THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF POLITICS.

IT'S ACTUALLY A MATTER OF HUMAN DECENCY AND DIGNITY.

>> DAVID VARDANYAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

AND AS WE SPEAK TO YOU, WE NOTE THAT IT IS TOMORROW, REMEMBRANCE DAY, 109 YEARS SINCE THE 1915 ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

>>> AND NEXT, WE TURN TO DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, THE PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN FAMED FOR HER CAPTIVATING BIOGRAPHIES OF AMERICAN LEADERS.

IN HER NEW BOOK, SHE FOCUSES ON AN UNLIKELY CHARACTER, HERSELF.

CALLED "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY: A PERSONAL HISTORY OF THE 1960s," IT IS PART MEMOIR AND PART HISTORY, TAKING HER READERS ON AN INCREDIBLE JOURNEY, THE ONE SHE AND HER WRITER HUSBAND EMBARKED UPON IN THE LAST YEARS OF HIS LIFE TO MAKE FRESH ASSESSMENTS OF THE CENTRAL FIGURES OF THE 1960s.

AND SHE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ALL ABOUT IT, NEXT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> OH, I'M SO GLAD TO BE ON WITH YOU, WALTER, MY OLD FRIEND.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS CALLED "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY," AND IT'S ABOUT YOUR LOVE STORY WITH RICHARD GOODWIN, WHO BECAME YOUR HUSBAND, FAMOUS SPEECH WRITER FOR LYNDON JOHNSON AND JOHN KENNEDY.

IT'S ALSO AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY ABOUT AMERICA AND THE OPTIMISM AND THE YOUTH OF AMERICA.

BUT LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT LOVE STORY.

AS YOU KNOW IN THE EARLY 1970s, I WAS A STUDENT AT HARVARD IN THAT LITTLE YELLOW HOUSE ON MOUNT ARBIN STREET.

AND ONE DAY WE WERE ALL EATING SANDWICHES FROM ELSIE'S LUNCH, AND A BUZZ GOES THROUGH THAT DICK GOODWIN HAS ARRIVED IN THE BUILDING.

YOU HAD AN OFFICE ON THE SECOND FLOOR.

HE GOES UP TO THE SECOND FLOOR.

THIS IS HOW YOUR BOOK BEGINS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, WE WERE EXCITED AT THE IDEA.

WE HAD HEARD THAT DICK GOODWIN WAS COMING.

HE WAS GOING TO HAVE AN OFFICE IN THE SAME BUILDING AS ALL OF US.

WE WERE YOUNG GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND YOUNG ASSISTANT PROFESSORS, SOME OF US.

AND HE WAS COMING TO SPEND MONTHS IN THIS PLACE.

AND WE HAD HEARD HE WAS MERCURIAL AND ARROGANT AND BRASH AND BRILLIANT.

SO I COULDN'T WAIT TO MEET HIM.

IVE WAS SITTING IN MY OFFICE ON THAT SECOND FLOOR, AND SUDDENLY HE JUST CAME IN AND PLOPPED DOWN ON ONE OF THE SEATS.

AND SAID "SO, YOU'RE A GRADUATE STUDENT"?

KNOW, NO.

I'M A ASSISTANT PROFESSOR.

HE SAID I KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

YOU WORKED FOR LINDEN AFTER I DID.

AND WE STARTED TALKING THAT AFTERNOON ABOUT EVERYTHING, ABOUT LBJ, ABOUT JFK, ABOUT SEX, ABOUT ASTRONOMY, ABOUT SCIENCE, ABOUT THE BELEAGUERS RED SOX.

AND THE CONVERSATION CONTINUED UNTIL DINNER THAT NIGHT.

AND IT REALLY NEVER STOPPED FOR 42 YEARS.

I KNEW THAT DAY, I WENT HOME AND TOLD MY FRIEND'S AUTHOR PATTY SIEGLE WHO WERE MY STUDENTS AT ONE POINT I MET THE MAN I WANTED TO MARRY.

SO SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT NIGHT.

>> WHEN HE IS GETTING OLDER, AND YOU ALL CONCEIVE OF THE PROJECT OF THIS BOOK.

TELL ME HOW THIS BOOK STARTED.

>> WELL, IT REALLY BEGAN AFTER HE HAD TURNED 80, HE CAME DOWN THE STAIRS ONE MORNING SINGING FROM "OKLAHOMA" "OH WHAT A BEAUTIFUL MORNING."

HE WAS IN SUCH A GOOD MOOD BECAUSE HE FINALLY DECIDED TO OPEN THESE 300 BOXES THAT HE HAD REALLY SCHLEPPED AROUND WITH US FOR 40 YEARS THAT WERE A TIME CAPSULE OF THE 1960s.

AND HE DECIDED THAT IF HE WAS GOING TO HAVE ANY WISDOM TO DISPENSE, THIS IS THE WAY HE WOULD TALK, "I BETTER START DISPENSING NOW."

THAT MEANT THAT THE PROJECT THAT REALLY OCCUPIED THE LAST FEW YEARS OF HIS LIFE AND OUR LIFE TOGETHER WAS TO START EXPLORING THESE BOXES FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END.

THE REASON HE HAD NOT WANTED TO OPEN THEM FOR ALL THOSE YEARS, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS CARING FOR THEM SO DEEPLY WAS THAT THE '60s HAD ENDED SO SADLY WITH THE DEATHS OF MARTIN LUTHER KING AND BOBBY KENNEDY, WHO WAS HIS CLOSE FRIEND, THE ESCALATING WAR IN VIETNAM, THE RIOTS IN THE CITIES AND THE CAMPUS VIOLENCE, THAT HE JUST WANTED TO LOOK AHEAD INSTEAD OF BACKWARD.

BUT ONCE WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD MEET EVERY WEEKEND, WE BOTH HAD OTHER THINGS WERE DOING, BUT WE'D START EXPLORING THE BOXES FROM THE BEGINNING, FROM THE LATE '50s AND THE '60s.

THAT'S WAY AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, AS A HISTORIAN, YOU HAVE TO DO HISTORY WITHOUT KNOWING HOW IT'S GOING TO END OR THE WHOLE SUSPENSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING A THE TIME WILL BE LOST.

SO WE JUST HAD TO PUT IN SUSPENSE THAT WE KNEW SAD THINGS WOULD HAPPEN LATER AND JUST BEGINNING AS IF HE IS A YOUNG PERSON GOING TO HARVARD, GOING TO FRANKFURTER, AND I'M GOING ALONG ON THE RIDE WITH HIM.

A LITTLE BIT YOUNGER THAN HIM, BUT IT'S MY DECADE AS WELL.

>> YOU HELP PIONEER THE GENRE OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION.

IN OTHER WORDS, WONDERFULLY RESEARCHED NONFICTION THAT READS LIKE A NOVEL OR SCREENPLAY.

WITH THIS BOOK, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE ALMOST INVENTING A NEW GENRE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST NARRATIVE NONFICTION, NOT JUST BIOGRAPHY, BUT THERE IS A TREASURE HUNT IN IT.

YOU TAKE US ALONG AS A HISTORIAN AND SAY HERE'S HOW I PULLED THIS DOCUMENT OUT OF THE ARCHIVES, AND HERE IS HOW I INTERVIEWED SOME PEOPLE RELATED TO IT.

SO IT'S ALMOST A BOOK ON HOW TO WRITE HISTORY AND HOW TO HAVE FUN DOING IT.

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I WASN'T SURE WHAT IT WAS GOING TO BE AT THE BEGINNING WHEN DICK AND I FIRST STARTED GOING THROUGH THE BOXES.

I WAS GOING TO HELP HIM TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN HIS VOICE.

BUT THEN ONCE HE DIED, OF COURSE, THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

AND I PROMISED HIM I WOULD SOMEHOW FINISH IT.

BUT I WASN'T SURE HOW I COULD DO IT WITHOUT HIM THERE.

AND THAT TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO ABSORB.

AND THEN I FINALLY REALIZED THAT I HAD TO BE AN HISTORIAN WRITING IT, JUST LIKE I WROTE MY OTHER BOOKS, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MORE INTIMATE HISTORY, IT ALSO WAS A HISTORY OF THE '60s.

I DECIDED THERE WERE CERTAIN PATHS OF THINGS UNRESOLVED FROM HIS EXPERIENCES AND MINE, AND I WANTED TO INTERVIEW THOSE PEOPLE, AS YOU SAY, SO I COULD GET A CHORUS.

BECAUSE THE 1960s GENERATION, MY GENERATION BEGINNING TO FADE.

I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO GET THEIR VOICES IN.

SO IT BECAME THIS UNUSUAL COMBINATION OF BIOGRAPHY AND HISTORY AND MEMOIR.

SO I WAS INVENTING AS I WAS GOING ALONG.

>> ONE OF THE SPARKLING THINGS IN THE BOOK IS THE IDEALISM THAT WOVE THROUGH THE '60s AND '70s, AND IN SOME WAYS IN THE BOOK HISTORICALLY, IT BEGINS WITH THE KENNEDY CAMPAIGN.

AND THERE IS A MOMENT THAT YOUR HUSBAND DICK GOODWIN IS INVOLVED WITH THE PEACE CORPS SUDDENLY COMES INTO PEOPLE'S MINDS.

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE MOMENTS THAT WAS SO MUCH FUN.

I HAD READ ABOUT IT AS AN HISTORIAN.

BUT TO SEE IT THROUGH THE EYES OF A FRONT RAIL PERSON WHO WAS THERE.

JOHN KENNEDY IN OCTOBER IS GOING DURING THE CAMPAIGN IN 1960 TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN JUST TO SLEEP FOR THAT NIGHT AT THE UNION, BECAUSE HE IS GOING TO HAVE A WHISTLE STOP TOUR THE NEXT DI OF THE STATE.

BUT HE GETS THERE AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING, AND HIS ENTIRE CROWD OF 10,000 KIDS FROM THE UNIVERSITY WAITING FOR HIM.

SO HE KNEW HE HAD TO SPEAK TO THEM.

NO SPEECH HAD BEEN PREPARED.

SO HE JUST SIMPLY GAVE A SERIES OF REMARKS THAT LASTED ONLY THREE MINUTES.

AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE ASKED THEM QUESTIONS.

WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SPEND A COUPLE OF YEARS OF YOUR LIFE AS POTENTIAL DOCTORS OR ENGINEERS OR SOCIAL WORKERS GOING TO ANOTHER DEVELOPING COUNTRY LIKE GHANA AND HELPING THEM AND THUS HELPING AMERICA BY SHOWING IN THIS COLD WAR, SHOWING WHAT AMERICAN VOLUNTEERISM CAN DO?

AND THE KIDS RESPONDED IMMEDIATELY.

AND THEN HE WENT AWAY.

HE SAID OKAY.

IT'S TIME FOR ME TO GO TO SLEEP.

THEY ALL LAUGHED.

AND THEN THE CHILDREN, THE CHILDREN -- THE YOUNG ADULTS TOOK UP THAT CHALLENGE.

AND I INTERVIEWED TWO OF THEM, THE RUSKINS, AL AND JUDITH.

AND THEY GOT A PLEDGE SIGNED BY A THOUSAND OF THE KIDS SAYING WE'LL BE WILLING TO GIVE TWO OR THREE YEARS OF OUR LIVES TO THIS NONEXISTENT PEACE CORPS.

THE NAME WAS NOT EVEN MENTIONED THAT NIGHT.

TED SORENSON AND DICK GOT AHOLD OF THE IDEA THE KIDS HAD DONE THIS.

THE KIDS CAME TO MEET JFK, AND THE PEACE CORPS WAS BORN AT THIS POINT.

IT WAS REALLY A SIGNATURE I THINK OF THE JFK PROGRAM.

IT FOLLOWS HIS WHOLE INAUGURAL LATER.

ASK NOT WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY, AND THE IDEA THAT YOUNG ADULT WANTED TO BE PART OF AN IDEALISTIC MOVEMENT OF AMERICA ABROAD I THINK REALLY SET THE TONE FOR SOME PART OF THAT IDEALISM OF THE '60s, WHICH OF COURSE IS MESHED WITH ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS AS WELL AS IDEALISM.

>> LOOMING AT THOR IS THE OF THIS BOOK IS THE SHAKESPEAREAN CHARACTER LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON.

AND IN SOME WAYS IT'S A SOURCE OF TENSION IN YOUR MARRIAGE.

YOUR FIRST GREAT BOOK WAS LBJ AND THE AMERICAN DREAM.

YOU WORKED AT THE LBJ WHITE HOUSE.

YOUR HUSBAND DICK WAS MORE PARTIAL TO THE KENNEDY SIDE, EVEN HAVING WORKED FOR LYNDON JOHNSON.

TELL ME.

TREMORS FROM THIS DIVISION RAN THROUGH OUR MARRIAGE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, IT REALLY WAS TRUE.

HIS LOYALTY I THINK BECAUSE OF HOW HE STARTED AS A YOUNG MAN, HE WAS ONLY 28 WHEN HE WENT TO WORK IN THE KENNEDY CAMPAIGN, AND HE WORKED FOR JFK IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THE NIGHT THAT THE BODY WAS BROUGHT BACK, HELPED TO GET THE ETERNAL FLAME, WAS VERY CLOSE TO JACKIE KENNEDY, WORKED ON A SERIES OF PROJECTS WITH HER.

HIS SAVING THE EGYPTIAN MONUMENTS, THEY WERE UNDER THREAT FROM THE ASWAN FLOOD PROJECT.

AND DID THE DINNER CAMELOT WHERE THE NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS WERE ALL TOLKO THERE.

AND HE LATER GOT VERY CLOSE TO BOBBY KENNEDY.

SO HE HAD RETAINED THAT LOYALTY TO THEM.

I FELT THE LOYALTY TO LYNDON JOHNSON, BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS THAT EXPERIENCE OF HAVING BEEN A WHITE HOUSE FELLOW IN THE WHITE HOUSE WORKING FOR HIM, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY HELPING HIM ON HIS MEMOIRS THE LAST YEARS OF HIS LIFE WHEN HE TALKED TO ME AND TALKED TO ME AND TALKED TO ME AND NEVER STOPPED TALKING, AND REALLY GAVE ME THE FOUNDATION FOR MY FIRST BOOK ON LYNDON JOHNSON AND THE AMERICAN DREAM, WHICH REALLY WAS THE BEGINNING OF MY BEING A PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN.

SO EVEN THOUGH I KNEW HIS FLAWS JUST AS HE KNEW JOHN KENNEDY'S FLAWS OR ROBERT KENNEDY'S FLAWS, WE HAD BASIC LOYALTIES TO TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

AND THERE WAS A FAULT LINE BETWEEN THOSE TWO PEOPLE FOR MUCH OF THAT DECADE.

SADLY, IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY THEORETICALLY, BUT IT CERTAINLY WAS, ESPECIALLY BETWEEN BOBBY AND LBJ.

SO THERE WAS AN IRRITANT WHENEVER WE TALKED ABOUT THEM.

I WOULD CONSTANTLY BE SAYING WELL, JOHNSON'S THE ONLY ONE THAT GOT THE BILLS THROUGH THAT KENNEDY WANTED TO GET THROUGH.

AND HE SAID WELL, KENNEDY HAD THE VISION.

AND WE FINALLY CAME TO UNDERSTAND REALLY, AS HE WENT THROUGH THE BOXES THAT RELATED TO LBJ THAT IN MANY WAYS, HE'S REALLY THE HEART OF THE BOOK IN MANY WAYS, JOHNSON IS.

HE'S THE CORE OF THE GREAT SUCCESS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE '60s, WAS IN '64 AND '65 WITH CIVIL RIGHTS AND VOTING RIGHTS.

DICK'S GREATEST CONTRIBUTIONS TO PUBLIC LIFE CAME DURING THAT PERIOD.

IT WAS JUST THAT HE HAD BROKEN WITH HIM ON THE WAR, AND THEN JOHNSON HAD BROKEN BACK WITH HIM.

AND THERE WAS RESENTMENTS TOWARDS THE MAN THAT HE HAD TRULY LOVED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

AND SLOWLY, HE BEGAN TO REMEMBER WHAT THOSE MOMENTS WERE LIKE.

SO IN THOSE LAST YEARS, HE SOFTENED HIS FEELINGS, SO GLADLY TOWARD LBJ.

HE SAID OH MY GOD, I'M FEELING AFFECTION FOR THE OLD GUY AGAIN.

AND I BEGAN TO REALIZE MORE OF THE INSPIRATIONAL POWER OF JFK.

SO WE CAME TO A MEETING THAT THEY REALLY WERE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN, THAT BOTH LEGACIES WERE ENLARGED BECAUSE OF EACH OTHER.

>> AND THEN THERE IS A SCENE IN YOUR BOOK, THAT SORT OF HEAD-SNAPPING SCENE IN THE WHITE HOUSE SWIMMING POOL WITH YOUR HUSBAND DICK GOODWIN AS LYNDON JOHNSON PADDLES AROUND.

IT'S SUCH AN ABSURD SCENE.

BUT OUT OF THAT SCENE WOULD COME SOMETHING TRANSFORMATIONAL.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT'S OFTEN TRUE WITH LYNDON JOHNSON.

THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT SIDES TO HIM.

BILL MORRIS SAID THERE WERE 13 LBJs.

YOU MIGHT SEE HIM IN A CRAZY SITUATION, MIGHT SEE HIM SO SERIOUS, MIGHT HAVE SEEN HIM HURTING SOMEBODY THEN BEING SO COMPASSIONATE.

BUT THIS WAS JUST A FUNNY SCENE.

I CALLED DICK AND SAID WELL, JOHNSON WANTS TO MEET WITH US TO TALK ABOUT HIS VISION FOR HIS PROGRAM, NOW THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL WAS GETTING THROUGH, THE TAX CUT HAD GOTTEN THROUGH.

HE WANTED A JOHNSON PROGRAM.

SO WE GOT TO GO MEET HIM.

SO DICK SAID ARE WE GOING TO THE OVAL?

NO, NO.

WE'RE GOING TO THE WHITE HOUSE POOL.

THEY GET THERE, JOHNSON IS ALREADY PADDLING NAKED AROUND THE POOL.

THEY'RE STANDING THERE IN THEIR SUITS.

WELL, I GUESS WE JUST TAKE THEM OFF.

AND THE THREE OF THEM ARE NOW NAKED IN THE POOL PADDLING UP AND DOWN WITH JOHNSON, DECLARING THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO FOR MY PROGRAM.

AND THEN IT WAS DICK'S RESPONSIBILITY TO WRITE HIS SPEECH EMBODYING THOSE THOUGHTS AFTER THEY HAD DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH ABOUT WHAT ISSUES SHOULD BE PART OF THEM.

AND FINALLY IT BECAME A CAPITAL SPEECH, THE GREAT SOCIETY.

SO IT'S AN UNUSUAL WAY TO BEGIN, THREE NAKED GUYS IN THE POOL COMING UP WITH A GREAT SOCIETY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT DICK GOODWIN HAVING HELPED WITH THE GREAT SOCIETY SPEECH.

IT'S A VERY SOARING SPEECH.

BUT THERE IS ALSO SOME LINES IN THAT SPEECH THAT ARE PERSONAL ABOUT LYNDON JOHNSON, ABOUT THE LITTLE KIDS HE TAUGHT DOWN IN TEXAS WHEN HE WAS A TEACHER.

>> AND SOMEHOW, YOU NEVER FORGET WHAT POVERTY AND HATRED CAN DO WHEN YOU SEE ITS SCARS ON THE HOPEFUL FACE OF A YOUNG CHILD.

I NEVER THOUGHT THEN IN 1928 THAT I WOULD BE STANDING HERE IN 1965.

IT NEVER EVEN OCCURRED TO ME IN MY FONDEST DREAMS THAT I MIGHT HAVE THE CHANCE TO HELP THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THOSE STUDENTS, AND TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE THEM ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY.

BUT NOW I DO HAVE THAT CHANCE.

AND I'LL LET YOU IN ON A SECRET.

I MEAN TO USE IT.

>> TELL ME HOW INGRAINED IN LYNDON JOHNSON WERE THOSE FEELINGS ABOUT KIDS GROWING UP IN POVERTY, AND WAS THAT SOMETHING HE ADDED TO THE SPEECH OR DID DICK PUT THAT IN?

>> NO, CLEARLY WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT, YOU KNOW, AS A SPEECH WRITER, YOU WERE IN THOSE DAYS IN THE WEST WING, YOU LISTENED TO LYNDON JOHNSON TALK A LOT, AND DICK HAD GONE TO THE RANCH SEVERAL TIMES AND TALKED TO HIM, AND CONSTANTLY JOHNSON WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE THAT YOU REFERENCED THAT WAS I THINK A FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE FOR HIM, THAT IF HE EVER GOT THE POWER, HE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO USE TO IT HELP NOT ONLY THOSE KIDS, OBVIOUSLY, AND THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN, BUT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THEM WHO SUFFERED FROM PREJUDICE AND HUNGER.

AND IT WAS REAL PLY IN THE SELMA SPEECH THAT HE INSERTED THE BUSINESS ABOUT KATULA.

HE TALKED ABOUT IT IN '64 AND '65.

AFTER HE HAD GONE THROUGH THE GREAT SELMA SPEECH WHERE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF VOTING RIGHTS FOR BLACK AMERICANS, HE SAID EVEN IF WE GET VOTING RIGHTS WHICH HE HOPE THEY'D WOULD GET FROM THE SPEECH AFTER THE SELMA BRIDGE INCIDENT HAD HAPPENED AND FIRED THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COUNTRY, THERE IS STILL A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE WE GET THE FULL BLESSINGS TO BLACK AMERICANS.

BUT IF WE COME TOGETHER, WE SHALL OVERCOME.

AND THAT WAS A MOMENT ALMOST AS ELECTRIC AS THE MOMENT WHERE HE USED THE PHRASE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" THE BANNER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, BRINGING IT TO THE HIGHEST COUNCILS OF POWER IN THE JOHNSON PRESIDENCY.

I THINK HE HAD A DEEP CONVICTION ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF EVERYONE HAVING A CHANCE TO RISE IN THE SYSTEM.

IT'S WHAT LINCOLN TALKED ABOUT CONSTANTLY THAT A DEMOCRACY DEPENDED ON THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO RISE TO THE LEVEL OF THEIR TALENT AND DISCIPLINE.

AND YOU CAN'T PUT MORE TALENT IN A PERSON.

YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM WORK HARDER, BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE THE CHANCE IF THEY CAN TO GO AS FAR AS THEY CAN.

THAT WAS LYNDON JOHNSON'S MANTRA AS WELL, AND IT WAS DICK'S AS WELL IN THE SAME SENSE, AND I THINK PROBABLY MINE TOO.

>> LESS THAN TWO YEARS AFTER THE SPEECH THAT DICK WRITES USING THE PHRASE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" FOR JOHNSON TO DELIVER AFTER THE SELMA MARCH, DICK IS OUT IN THE STREETS PROTESTING AGAINST LYNDON JOHNSON.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> AS HE SAID, WHEN HE WAS STANDING IN THE WELL OF THE HOUSE THE NIGHT JOHNSON DELIVERED THE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" SPEECH, AND HE WAS SO HEARTENED BY IT, NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WORDS HE HAD HELPED TO GIVE TO JOHNSON, MORE IMPORTANTLY HE KNEW THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WOULD PROBABLY PASS, JUST AS MARTIN LUTHER KING DID THAT NIGHT.

IT WAS SAID THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING CRIED IN SELMA WHEN HE LISTENED TO THAT SPEECH, KNOWING THAT THIS WOULD PROBABLY HELP TO MAKE THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT CHANGE IN THE COUNTRY.

AND ALLOW THAT VOTING RIGHTS BILL TO COME THROUGH.

DICK SAID THAT NIGHT, NEVER COULD I HAVE IMAGINED, AS YOU SAY, THAT TWO YEARS LATER I'D BE OUT IN THE STREETS AGAINST HIM.

AFTER HE LEFT IN THE FALL OF 1965, HE HAD BEEN UPSET ABOUT THE INCREASING FOCUS TOWARD THE WAR AWAY FROM THE GREAT SOCIETY WHILE HE WAS THERE, BUT IT WAS ONLY WHEN HE GOT OUT THAT HE BEGAN TO REALLY LOOK AT THE WAR FROM THE OUTSIDE IN, AND HE BECAME THE FIRST ADMINISTRATIVE PERSON AT A HIGH LEVEL IN 1966 TO GIVE AN ANTI-WAR SPEECH AGAINST THE WAR.

AND HE THEN GOT FRIENDLY WITH BOBBY KENNEDY, AND BOBBY KENNEDY WAS TURNING MORE AGAINST THE WAR.

AND THEN LYNDON JOHNSON BROKE WITH HIM AT THE SAME TIME.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT CREATED THE RESENTMENTS THAT LASTED THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

IT WAS A SAD ENDING TO THIS RELATIONSHIP THAT HAD BEEN MOST IMPORTANT DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

>> THIS BOOK, "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY" IS AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY ABOUT YOU AND HIM AND AMERICA AND AMERICA'S IDEALISM.

WHEN YOU'RE STARTING TO WORK ON THIS BOOK, DICK WRITES FOR YOU THIS SENTENCE, "FROM THE LONG VIEW OF LIFE, I SEE HOW HISTORY TURNS AND VEERS.

THE END OF OUR COUNTRY HAS LOOMED MANY TIMES BEFORE, BUT AMERICA IS NOT AS FRAGILE AS IT SEEMS."

THIS WEEK, THIS MONTH, THIS YEAR DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT?

>> I DO.

I THINK ONE OF THE GREAT BENEFITS OF BEING AN HISTORIAN, THE SOLACE YOU GET FROM IT, THE PERSPECTIVE YOU GET FROM IT, THE REFLECTIONS YOU GET FROM IT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THESE OTHER TIMES, AND I'VE CHOSEN TO WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN TURBULENT TIMES.

I MEAN, LINCOLN AND THE CIVIL WAR, OBVIOUSLY THE GREAT DEPRESSION, AND THE EARLY DAYS OF WORLD WAR II.

AND IN EACH ONE OF THOSE CASES, THE PEOPLE LIVING AT THAT TIME WERE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT DEMOCRACY WAS FRAGILE AND WOULD BE UNDONE.

SO WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THESE THINGS BEFORE.

THE PEOPLE LIVING A THE TIME WERE ANXIOUS LIKE WE'RE ANXIOUS NOW, NOT KNOWING HOW THE CHAPTER IN OUR LIFE IS GOING END.

BUT EACH TIME SOMEHOW THE COMBINATION OF LEADERSHIP AND THE COMBINATION OF CITIZENS.

WHEN LINCOLN WAS CALLED A LIBERATOR, HE SAID DON'T CALL ME THAT.

IT WAS THE ANTI-SLAVERY MOVEMENT THAT DID IT ALL.

A AND THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT WAS THERE BEFORE TEDDY ROOSEVELT, THE UNION MOVEMENT BEFORE FDR AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT BEFORE LBJ.

SO WE'VE COME THROUGH THESE HARD TIMES BEFORE.

AND YOU'VE JUST GOT TO HOPE THAT SOMEHOW WE'LL WORK OUR WAY THROUGH THIS VERY DIFFICULT TIME, AS DIFFICULT AS ANY TIME THAT I'VE LIVED THROUGH.

BUT YOU JUST KNOW WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE, AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE ABLE TO DO IT AGAIN.

>> DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.

>> DIFFICULT TIMES INDEED.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE SHINE A SPOTLIGHT ON A SYMBOL OF PATRIOTISM AND DEFIANCE THROUGH ART AND CULTURE.

THE FIRST UKRAINIAN MAESTRO AT THE METROPOLITAN OPERA, OKSANA LYNIV IS A CLASSICAL MUSIC TRAILBLAZER.

RIGHT NOW SHE IS CONDUCTING PUCCINI'S "TURANDOT" AT THE LEGENDARY NEW YORK OPERA HOUSE.

BUT THIS REMARKABLE ACHIEVEMENT COMES AT A TIME OF GREAT PERSONAL COST, AS RUSSIA'S INVASION RAVAGES HER HOMETOWN OF ODESA AND HER WHOLE COUNTRY, PUTTING HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS IN DANGER.

SPEAKING WITH HER AT THE MET, I ASKED ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE, AND WHY PROMOTING UKRAINIAN CULTURE IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE WAR EFFORT.

>> OKSANA LYNIV, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU TO BE THE FIRST UKRAINIAN CONDUCTOR TO STEP ON TO THE METROPOLITAN STAGE?

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY EXCITING.

I FEEL VERY HONORED TO BE THE FIRST UKRAINIAN CONDUCTOR IN 141 YEARS OF METROPOLITAN THEATER HISTORY, AND TO BE A PART OF THIS LEGENDARY AND HISTORICAL PRODUCTION OF "TURANDOT."

♪♪ ♪♪ >> IS "TURANDOT" A FAVORITE OF YOURS?

>> YES.

IT'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE OPERAS IN GENERAL I LOVE TO CONDUCT PUCCINI.

AND "TURANDOT" IS THE LAST ONE.

AND MAYBE MOST SIGNIFICANT, BECAUSE THE COMPOSER EVEN DIDN'T FINISH THE OPERA.

HE DIED ALREADY BEFORE.

AND IT WAS FINISHED BY OTHER COMPOSERS.

>> AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU GIVEN THE FACT THAT THERE IS A HORRIBLE WAR RAGING IN YOUR HOMELAND, TO YOU TO BE HERE?

AND WHAT DO YOU HOPE THE AUDIENCE, EVEN THE CHOIR AND THE PERFORMERS TO TAKE FROM THIS MOMENT IN MIST?

>> YES.

THE WAR MAKES US SUFFER ALL TOGETHER WITH PEOPLE IN UKRAINE.

MY FAMILY IN UKRAINE, MY FRIENDS, ALL MY COLLEAGUES ARE IN UKRAINE.

MY FIRST "TURANDOT" I CONDUCTED THE NATIONAL OPERA OF ODESA.

OF COURSE I WILL SINK IN THE INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCE BUT TERRIFIED CONDITIONS, WHICH NOW ALL MUSICIANS ARE SUFFERING WITH.

AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM MAKES US TO FEEL EVERYTHING DEEPER, EVERYTHING MORE EMOTIONALLY.

AND I WOULD LIKE THROUGH MY MUSIC, THROUGH MY ART, MAKE PEOPLE ALSO TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE ART IS ABOUT HUMANITY.

AND I WOULD LIKE WITH OUR ARTS ALSO TO EDUCATE AND TO DO SOME IMPACT FOR THE FUTURE GENERATIONS.

>> AND YOU SAID ODESA, AND WE ALL KNOW THERE WAS A MISSILE ATTACK BY RUSSIA ON ODESA VERY CLOSE TO THE OPERA HOUSE THERE.

>> YES.

AND IT WAS ON 2nd OF MARCH, EXACTLY ON THE DAY WHEN I CONDUCTED HERE MY SECOND NIGHT OF "TURANDOT."

AND OF COURSE I WAS CONDUCTING, AND I HAD TEARS IN MY EYES.

AND FOR EXAMPLE, IN MY FUTURE CONCERT, I ALREADY COMMISSIONED THE PIECE TO UKRAINIAN COMPOSER YEVGENY ORKIN.

AND I'M GOING TO PREMIERE THIS IN DENMARK.

AND IT WILL CALLED FIVE INTERRUPTED LULLABIES DEDICATED TO INNOCENT CHILDREN WHO DIED THAT NIGHT.

>> FIVE INTERRUPTED LULLABIES.

A VERY PROVOCATIVE TITLE.

DO YOU STILL LIKE RUSSIAN MUSIC, OR IS IT A NO-NO NOW?

RUSSIAN OPERA?

.

THERE ARE MANY DISCUSSIONS IN UKRAINE.

IN UKRAINE NO ONE ARTIST OR HEATER IS PERFORMING RUSSIAN MUSIC, LIKE TCHAIKOVSKY BUT NOW I STEP IN TO SAY ALL ARTISTS WHO ARE WORKING INTERNATIONALLY HAVE TO ACCEPT.

AND OF COURSE I AM ALSO ACCEPTING, BECAUSE I FEEL MYSELF ABSOLUTELY ABSOLUTELY EUROPEAN THAT TRY TO SET THE ARTISTS, FOR EXAMPLE, SAY GENIUS TCHAIKOVSKY WHO DIED 150 YEARS AGO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TODAY'S KRAMS WHICH IS DOING NOW RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT.

AND ALSO MANY COMPOSERS HAD VERY CLOSE CONNECTION TO UKRAINE.

FOR EXAMPLE, BOTH PARENTS OF STRAVINSKY, THEY'RE UKRAINIAN.

AND HE COMPOSED IN UKRAINE USING UKRAINIAN MELODIES.

THE SAME IS PROKOFIEV WHO WAS BORN IN DONETSK, AND NOW THE TERRITORIES ARE OCCUPIED ALREADY BY RUSSIAN TROOPS.

SO I THINK THAT THE WAR, WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE WAR HERITAGE, BUT MY DREAM IS AND I'M WORKING ACTIVELY FOR THIS THAT UKRAINIAN UNKNOWN MUSIC UNTIL NOW, BECAUSE UKRAINIAN CULTURE WAS ALSO UNDER THE PRESSURE OF IMPERIALISTIC RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS.

THE UKRAINIAN CULTURE WILL SPREAD MORE IN THE WORLD.

AND I AM ALSO IN ANY CONCERT, IN ANY DIFFERENT CONTINENTS, I AM ALSO DOING AND PERFORMING UKRAINIAN COMPOSERS.

>> WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, WERE THERE MANY FEMALE UKRAINIAN CONDUCTORS THAT YOU COULD LOOK TO AS AN EXAMPLE?

>> NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

WHEN I ENTERED TO THE LVIV MUSIC ACADEMY, I WITH WAS SINGLE.

>> YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE THERE?

>> YES, I WAS THE ONLY ONE.

THE NEXT YEAR A SECOND ONE.

SHE IS NOW WORKING IN LVIV NATIONAL OPERATE RA HOUSE.

OPERA HOUSE.

I AM HAPPY TO SEE THE DEVELOPMENT NOW AND BECOME MORE AND MORE FANTASTIC WOMEN CONDUCTORS.

AND ESPECIALLY NOW IN NEW YORK AS THE METROPOLITAN OPERA.

A FEMALE CONDUCTOR, NOT THE MAJORITY TO MALE CONDUCTORS.

>> THAT'S AMAZING.

>> YES.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR AUDIENCES TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY NOW?

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT THE WAR, IT IS NOT ABOUT POLITICIANS, ABOUT TERRITORY, ABOUT TO SEE THE NEWS ON THE TV.

THE WAR IS ABOUT HUMAN, ABOUT PEOPLE, ABOUT FAMILIES, ABOUT LOST CHILDHOOD.

AND IT IS TERRIBLE TO SEE EVERY DAY.

IT HAPPENS MORE AND MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE RUSSIA IS DOING THE TERRIFIED ACTION JUST TO BOMB CIVILIAN CITIES.

AND I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SAY THANK YOU, ESPECIALLY ALSO TO ALL AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR YOUR HELP TO UKRAINE, BECAUSE I THINK THAT AMERICAN CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS SUCH IMPORTANT VALUES AS FREEDOM.

AND I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR SOLIDARITY AND WANT TO SAY THAT PLEASE DON'T LOSE THE HOPE, ALSO TO CONTINUE TO HELP US.

>> AND ACTUALLY, THIS WAR HAS SHOWN THE WORLD MUCH MORE UKRAINIAN CULTURE, DANCE, MUSIC, ART.

IT'S AN INTERESTING BY-PRODUCT OF THIS TERRIBLE WAR.

OKSANA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

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