Doris Kearns Goodwin’s “Unfinished” Love Letter to the 60s and Her Late Husband

>>> AND NEXT, WE TURN TO DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, THE PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN FAMED FOR HER CAPTIVATING BIOGRAPHIES OF AMERICAN LEADERS.

IN HER NEW BOOK, SHE FOCUSES ON AN UNLIKELY CHARACTER, HERSELF.

CALLED "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY: A PERSONAL HISTORY OF THE 1960s," IT IS PART MEMOIR AND PART HISTORY, TAKING HER READERS ON AN INCREDIBLE JOURNEY, THE ONE SHE AND HER WRITER HUSBAND EMBARKED UPON IN THE LAST YEARS OF HIS LIFE TO MAKE FRESH ASSESSMENTS OF THE CENTRAL FIGURES OF THE 1960s.

AND SHE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ALL ABOUT IT, NEXT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> OH, I'M SO GLAD TO BE ON WITH YOU, WALTER, MY OLD FRIEND.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS CALLED "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY," AND IT'S ABOUT YOUR LOVE STORY WITH RICHARD GOODWIN, WHO BECAME YOUR HUSBAND, FAMOUS SPEECH WRITER FOR LYNDON JOHNSON AND JOHN KENNEDY.

IT'S ALSO AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY ABOUT AMERICA AND THE OPTIMISM AND THE YOUTH OF AMERICA.

BUT LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT LOVE STORY.

AS YOU KNOW IN THE EARLY 1970s, I WAS A STUDENT AT HARVARD IN THAT LITTLE YELLOW HOUSE ON MOUNT ARBIN STREET.

AND ONE DAY WE WERE ALL EATING SANDWICHES FROM ELSIE'S LUNCH, AND A BUZZ GOES THROUGH THAT DICK GOODWIN HAS ARRIVED IN THE BUILDING.

YOU HAD AN OFFICE ON THE SECOND FLOOR.

HE GOES UP TO THE SECOND FLOOR.

THIS IS HOW YOUR BOOK BEGINS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, WE WERE EXCITED AT THE IDEA.

WE HAD HEARD THAT DICK GOODWIN WAS COMING.

HE WAS GOING TO HAVE AN OFFICE IN THE SAME BUILDING AS ALL OF US.

WE WERE YOUNG GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND YOUNG ASSISTANT PROFESSORS, SOME OF US.

AND HE WAS COMING TO SPEND MONTHS IN THIS PLACE.

AND WE HAD HEARD HE WAS MERCURIAL AND ARROGANT AND BRASH AND BRILLIANT.

SO I COULDN'T WAIT TO MEET HIM.

IVE WAS SITTING IN MY OFFICE ON THAT SECOND FLOOR, AND SUDDENLY HE JUST CAME IN AND PLOPPED DOWN ON ONE OF THE SEATS.

AND SAID "SO, YOU'RE A GRADUATE STUDENT"?

KNOW, NO.

I'M A ASSISTANT PROFESSOR.

HE SAID I KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

YOU WORKED FOR LINDEN AFTER I DID.

AND WE STARTED TALKING THAT AFTERNOON ABOUT EVERYTHING, ABOUT LBJ, ABOUT JFK, ABOUT SEX, ABOUT ASTRONOMY, ABOUT SCIENCE, ABOUT THE BELEAGUERS RED SOX.

AND THE CONVERSATION CONTINUED UNTIL DINNER THAT NIGHT.

AND IT REALLY NEVER STOPPED FOR 42 YEARS.

I KNEW THAT DAY, I WENT HOME AND TOLD MY FRIEND'S AUTHOR PATTY SIEGLE WHO WERE MY STUDENTS AT ONE POINT I MET THE MAN I WANTED TO MARRY.

SO SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT NIGHT.

>> WHEN HE IS GETTING OLDER, AND YOU ALL CONCEIVE OF THE PROJECT OF THIS BOOK.

TELL ME HOW THIS BOOK STARTED.

>> WELL, IT REALLY BEGAN AFTER HE HAD TURNED 80, HE CAME DOWN THE STAIRS ONE MORNING SINGING FROM "OKLAHOMA" "OH WHAT A BEAUTIFUL MORNING."

HE WAS IN SUCH A GOOD MOOD BECAUSE HE FINALLY DECIDED TO OPEN THESE 300 BOXES THAT HE HAD REALLY SCHLEPPED AROUND WITH US FOR 40 YEARS THAT WERE A TIME CAPSULE OF THE 1960s.

AND HE DECIDED THAT IF HE WAS GOING TO HAVE ANY WISDOM TO DISPENSE, THIS IS THE WAY HE WOULD TALK, "I BETTER START DISPENSING NOW."

THAT MEANT THAT THE PROJECT THAT REALLY OCCUPIED THE LAST FEW YEARS OF HIS LIFE AND OUR LIFE TOGETHER WAS TO START EXPLORING THESE BOXES FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END.

THE REASON HE HAD NOT WANTED TO OPEN THEM FOR ALL THOSE YEARS, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS CARING FOR THEM SO DEEPLY WAS THAT THE '60s HAD ENDED SO SADLY WITH THE DEATHS OF MARTIN LUTHER KING AND BOBBY KENNEDY, WHO WAS HIS CLOSE FRIEND, THE ESCALATING WAR IN VIETNAM, THE RIOTS IN THE CITIES AND THE CAMPUS VIOLENCE, THAT HE JUST WANTED TO LOOK AHEAD INSTEAD OF BACKWARD.

BUT ONCE WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD MEET EVERY WEEKEND, WE BOTH HAD OTHER THINGS WERE DOING, BUT WE'D START EXPLORING THE BOXES FROM THE BEGINNING, FROM THE LATE '50s AND THE '60s.

THAT'S WAY AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, AS A HISTORIAN, YOU HAVE TO DO HISTORY WITHOUT KNOWING HOW IT'S GOING TO END OR THE WHOLE SUSPENSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING A THE TIME WILL BE LOST.

SO WE JUST HAD TO PUT IN SUSPENSE THAT WE KNEW SAD THINGS WOULD HAPPEN LATER AND JUST BEGINNING AS IF HE IS A YOUNG PERSON GOING TO HARVARD, GOING TO FRANKFURTER, AND I'M GOING ALONG ON THE RIDE WITH HIM.

A LITTLE BIT YOUNGER THAN HIM, BUT IT'S MY DECADE AS WELL.

>> YOU HELP PIONEER THE GENRE OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION.

IN OTHER WORDS, WONDERFULLY RESEARCHED NONFICTION THAT READS LIKE A NOVEL OR SCREENPLAY.

WITH THIS BOOK, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE ALMOST INVENTING A NEW GENRE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST NARRATIVE NONFICTION, NOT JUST BIOGRAPHY, BUT THERE IS A TREASURE HUNT IN IT.

YOU TAKE US ALONG AS A HISTORIAN AND SAY HERE'S HOW I PULLED THIS DOCUMENT OUT OF THE ARCHIVES, AND HERE IS HOW I INTERVIEWED SOME PEOPLE RELATED TO IT.

SO IT'S ALMOST A BOOK ON HOW TO WRITE HISTORY AND HOW TO HAVE FUN DOING IT.

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I WASN'T SURE WHAT IT WAS GOING TO BE AT THE BEGINNING WHEN DICK AND I FIRST STARTED GOING THROUGH THE BOXES.

I WAS GOING TO HELP HIM TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN HIS VOICE.

BUT THEN ONCE HE DIED, OF COURSE, THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

AND I PROMISED HIM I WOULD SOMEHOW FINISH IT.

BUT I WASN'T SURE HOW I COULD DO IT WITHOUT HIM THERE.

AND THAT TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO ABSORB.

AND THEN I FINALLY REALIZED THAT I HAD TO BE AN HISTORIAN WRITING IT, JUST LIKE I WROTE MY OTHER BOOKS, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MORE INTIMATE HISTORY, IT ALSO WAS A HISTORY OF THE '60s.

I DECIDED THERE WERE CERTAIN PATHS OF THINGS UNRESOLVED FROM HIS EXPERIENCES AND MINE, AND I WANTED TO INTERVIEW THOSE PEOPLE, AS YOU SAY, SO I COULD GET A CHORUS.

BECAUSE THE 1960s GENERATION, MY GENERATION BEGINNING TO FADE.

I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO GET THEIR VOICES IN.

SO IT BECAME THIS UNUSUAL COMBINATION OF BIOGRAPHY AND HISTORY AND MEMOIR.

SO I WAS INVENTING AS I WAS GOING ALONG.

>> ONE OF THE SPARKLING THINGS IN THE BOOK IS THE IDEALISM THAT WOVE THROUGH THE '60s AND '70s, AND IN SOME WAYS IN THE BOOK HISTORICALLY, IT BEGINS WITH THE KENNEDY CAMPAIGN.

AND THERE IS A MOMENT THAT YOUR HUSBAND DICK GOODWIN IS INVOLVED WITH THE PEACE CORPS SUDDENLY COMES INTO PEOPLE'S MINDS.

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE MOMENTS THAT WAS SO MUCH FUN.

I HAD READ ABOUT IT AS AN HISTORIAN.

BUT TO SEE IT THROUGH THE EYES OF A FRONT RAIL PERSON WHO WAS THERE.

JOHN KENNEDY IN OCTOBER IS GOING DURING THE CAMPAIGN IN 1960 TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN JUST TO SLEEP FOR THAT NIGHT AT THE UNION, BECAUSE HE IS GOING TO HAVE A WHISTLE STOP TOUR THE NEXT DI OF THE STATE.

BUT HE GETS THERE AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING, AND HIS ENTIRE CROWD OF 10,000 KIDS FROM THE UNIVERSITY WAITING FOR HIM.

SO HE KNEW HE HAD TO SPEAK TO THEM.

NO SPEECH HAD BEEN PREPARED.

SO HE JUST SIMPLY GAVE A SERIES OF REMARKS THAT LASTED ONLY THREE MINUTES.

AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE ASKED THEM QUESTIONS.

WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SPEND A COUPLE OF YEARS OF YOUR LIFE AS POTENTIAL DOCTORS OR ENGINEERS OR SOCIAL WORKERS GOING TO ANOTHER DEVELOPING COUNTRY LIKE GHANA AND HELPING THEM AND THUS HELPING AMERICA BY SHOWING IN THIS COLD WAR, SHOWING WHAT AMERICAN VOLUNTEERISM CAN DO?

AND THE KIDS RESPONDED IMMEDIATELY.

AND THEN HE WENT AWAY.

HE SAID OKAY.

IT'S TIME FOR ME TO GO TO SLEEP.

THEY ALL LAUGHED.

AND THEN THE CHILDREN, THE CHILDREN -- THE YOUNG ADULTS TOOK UP THAT CHALLENGE.

AND I INTERVIEWED TWO OF THEM, THE RUSKINS, AL AND JUDITH.

AND THEY GOT A PLEDGE SIGNED BY A THOUSAND OF THE KIDS SAYING WE'LL BE WILLING TO GIVE TWO OR THREE YEARS OF OUR LIVES TO THIS NONEXISTENT PEACE CORPS.

THE NAME WAS NOT EVEN MENTIONED THAT NIGHT.

TED SORENSON AND DICK GOT AHOLD OF THE IDEA THE KIDS HAD DONE THIS.

THE KIDS CAME TO MEET JFK, AND THE PEACE CORPS WAS BORN AT THIS POINT.

IT WAS REALLY A SIGNATURE I THINK OF THE JFK PROGRAM.

IT FOLLOWS HIS WHOLE INAUGURAL LATER.

ASK NOT WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY, AND THE IDEA THAT YOUNG ADULT WANTED TO BE PART OF AN IDEALISTIC MOVEMENT OF AMERICA ABROAD I THINK REALLY SET THE TONE FOR SOME PART OF THAT IDEALISM OF THE '60s, WHICH OF COURSE IS MESHED WITH ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS AS WELL AS IDEALISM.

>> LOOMING AT THOR IS THE OF THIS BOOK IS THE SHAKESPEAREAN CHARACTER LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON.

AND IN SOME WAYS IT'S A SOURCE OF TENSION IN YOUR MARRIAGE.

YOUR FIRST GREAT BOOK WAS LBJ AND THE AMERICAN DREAM.

YOU WORKED AT THE LBJ WHITE HOUSE.

YOUR HUSBAND DICK WAS MORE PARTIAL TO THE KENNEDY SIDE, EVEN HAVING WORKED FOR LYNDON JOHNSON.

TELL ME.

TREMORS FROM THIS DIVISION RAN THROUGH OUR MARRIAGE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, IT REALLY WAS TRUE.

HIS LOYALTY I THINK BECAUSE OF HOW HE STARTED AS A YOUNG MAN, HE WAS ONLY 28 WHEN HE WENT TO WORK IN THE KENNEDY CAMPAIGN, AND HE WORKED FOR JFK IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THE NIGHT THAT THE BODY WAS BROUGHT BACK, HELPED TO GET THE ETERNAL FLAME, WAS VERY CLOSE TO JACKIE KENNEDY, WORKED ON A SERIES OF PROJECTS WITH HER.

HIS SAVING THE EGYPTIAN MONUMENTS, THEY WERE UNDER THREAT FROM THE ASWAN FLOOD PROJECT.

AND DID THE DINNER CAMELOT WHERE THE NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS WERE ALL TOLKO THERE.

AND HE LATER GOT VERY CLOSE TO BOBBY KENNEDY.

SO HE HAD RETAINED THAT LOYALTY TO THEM.

I FELT THE LOYALTY TO LYNDON JOHNSON, BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS THAT EXPERIENCE OF HAVING BEEN A WHITE HOUSE FELLOW IN THE WHITE HOUSE WORKING FOR HIM, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY HELPING HIM ON HIS MEMOIRS THE LAST YEARS OF HIS LIFE WHEN HE TALKED TO ME AND TALKED TO ME AND TALKED TO ME AND NEVER STOPPED TALKING, AND REALLY GAVE ME THE FOUNDATION FOR MY FIRST BOOK ON LYNDON JOHNSON AND THE AMERICAN DREAM, WHICH REALLY WAS THE BEGINNING OF MY BEING A PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN.

SO EVEN THOUGH I KNEW HIS FLAWS JUST AS HE KNEW JOHN KENNEDY'S FLAWS OR ROBERT KENNEDY'S FLAWS, WE HAD BASIC LOYALTIES TO TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

AND THERE WAS A FAULT LINE BETWEEN THOSE TWO PEOPLE FOR MUCH OF THAT DECADE.

SADLY, IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY THEORETICALLY, BUT IT CERTAINLY WAS, ESPECIALLY BETWEEN BOBBY AND LBJ.

SO THERE WAS AN IRRITANT WHENEVER WE TALKED ABOUT THEM.

I WOULD CONSTANTLY BE SAYING WELL, JOHNSON'S THE ONLY ONE THAT GOT THE BILLS THROUGH THAT KENNEDY WANTED TO GET THROUGH.

AND HE SAID WELL, KENNEDY HAD THE VISION.

AND WE FINALLY CAME TO UNDERSTAND REALLY, AS HE WENT THROUGH THE BOXES THAT RELATED TO LBJ THAT IN MANY WAYS, HE'S REALLY THE HEART OF THE BOOK IN MANY WAYS, JOHNSON IS.

HE'S THE CORE OF THE GREAT SUCCESS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE '60s, WAS IN '64 AND '65 WITH CIVIL RIGHTS AND VOTING RIGHTS.

DICK'S GREATEST CONTRIBUTIONS TO PUBLIC LIFE CAME DURING THAT PERIOD.

IT WAS JUST THAT HE HAD BROKEN WITH HIM ON THE WAR, AND THEN JOHNSON HAD BROKEN BACK WITH HIM.

AND THERE WAS RESENTMENTS TOWARDS THE MAN THAT HE HAD TRULY LOVED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

AND SLOWLY, HE BEGAN TO REMEMBER WHAT THOSE MOMENTS WERE LIKE.

SO IN THOSE LAST YEARS, HE SOFTENED HIS FEELINGS, SO GLADLY TOWARD LBJ.

HE SAID OH MY GOD, I'M FEELING AFFECTION FOR THE OLD GUY AGAIN.

AND I BEGAN TO REALIZE MORE OF THE INSPIRATIONAL POWER OF JFK.

SO WE CAME TO A MEETING THAT THEY REALLY WERE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN, THAT BOTH LEGACIES WERE ENLARGED BECAUSE OF EACH OTHER.

>> AND THEN THERE IS A SCENE IN YOUR BOOK, THAT SORT OF HEAD-SNAPPING SCENE IN THE WHITE HOUSE SWIMMING POOL WITH YOUR HUSBAND DICK GOODWIN AS LYNDON JOHNSON PADDLES AROUND.

IT'S SUCH AN ABSURD SCENE.

BUT OUT OF THAT SCENE WOULD COME SOMETHING TRANSFORMATIONAL.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT'S OFTEN TRUE WITH LYNDON JOHNSON.

THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT SIDES TO HIM.

BILL MORRIS SAID THERE WERE 13 LBJs.

YOU MIGHT SEE HIM IN A CRAZY SITUATION, MIGHT SEE HIM SO SERIOUS, MIGHT HAVE SEEN HIM HURTING SOMEBODY THEN BEING SO COMPASSIONATE.

BUT THIS WAS JUST A FUNNY SCENE.

I CALLED DICK AND SAID WELL, JOHNSON WANTS TO MEET WITH US TO TALK ABOUT HIS VISION FOR HIS PROGRAM, NOW THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL WAS GETTING THROUGH, THE TAX CUT HAD GOTTEN THROUGH.

HE WANTED A JOHNSON PROGRAM.

SO WE GOT TO GO MEET HIM.

SO DICK SAID ARE WE GOING TO THE OVAL?

NO, NO.

WE'RE GOING TO THE WHITE HOUSE POOL.

THEY GET THERE, JOHNSON IS ALREADY PADDLING NAKED AROUND THE POOL.

THEY'RE STANDING THERE IN THEIR SUITS.

WELL, I GUESS WE JUST TAKE THEM OFF.

AND THE THREE OF THEM ARE NOW NAKED IN THE POOL PADDLING UP AND DOWN WITH JOHNSON, DECLARING THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO FOR MY PROGRAM.

AND THEN IT WAS DICK'S RESPONSIBILITY TO WRITE HIS SPEECH EMBODYING THOSE THOUGHTS AFTER THEY HAD DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH ABOUT WHAT ISSUES SHOULD BE PART OF THEM.

AND FINALLY IT BECAME A CAPITAL SPEECH, THE GREAT SOCIETY.

SO IT'S AN UNUSUAL WAY TO BEGIN, THREE NAKED GUYS IN THE POOL COMING UP WITH A GREAT SOCIETY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT DICK GOODWIN HAVING HELPED WITH THE GREAT SOCIETY SPEECH.

IT'S A VERY SOARING SPEECH.

BUT THERE IS ALSO SOME LINES IN THAT SPEECH THAT ARE PERSONAL ABOUT LYNDON JOHNSON, ABOUT THE LITTLE KIDS HE TAUGHT DOWN IN TEXAS WHEN HE WAS A TEACHER.

>> AND SOMEHOW, YOU NEVER FORGET WHAT POVERTY AND HATRED CAN DO WHEN YOU SEE ITS SCARS ON THE HOPEFUL FACE OF A YOUNG CHILD.

I NEVER THOUGHT THEN IN 1928 THAT I WOULD BE STANDING HERE IN 1965.

IT NEVER EVEN OCCURRED TO ME IN MY FONDEST DREAMS THAT I MIGHT HAVE THE CHANCE TO HELP THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THOSE STUDENTS, AND TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE THEM ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY.

BUT NOW I DO HAVE THAT CHANCE.

AND I'LL LET YOU IN ON A SECRET.

I MEAN TO USE IT.

>> TELL ME HOW INGRAINED IN LYNDON JOHNSON WERE THOSE FEELINGS ABOUT KIDS GROWING UP IN POVERTY, AND WAS THAT SOMETHING HE ADDED TO THE SPEECH OR DID DICK PUT THAT IN?

>> NO, CLEARLY WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT, YOU KNOW, AS A SPEECH WRITER, YOU WERE IN THOSE DAYS IN THE WEST WING, YOU LISTENED TO LYNDON JOHNSON TALK A LOT, AND DICK HAD GONE TO THE RANCH SEVERAL TIMES AND TALKED TO HIM, AND CONSTANTLY JOHNSON WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE THAT YOU REFERENCED THAT WAS I THINK A FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE FOR HIM, THAT IF HE EVER GOT THE POWER, HE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO USE TO IT HELP NOT ONLY THOSE KIDS, OBVIOUSLY, AND THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN, BUT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THEM WHO SUFFERED FROM PREJUDICE AND HUNGER.

AND IT WAS REAL PLY IN THE SELMA SPEECH THAT HE INSERTED THE BUSINESS ABOUT KATULA.

HE TALKED ABOUT IT IN '64 AND '65.

AFTER HE HAD GONE THROUGH THE GREAT SELMA SPEECH WHERE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF VOTING RIGHTS FOR BLACK AMERICANS, HE SAID EVEN IF WE GET VOTING RIGHTS WHICH HE HOPE THEY'D WOULD GET FROM THE SPEECH AFTER THE SELMA BRIDGE INCIDENT HAD HAPPENED AND FIRED THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COUNTRY, THERE IS STILL A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE WE GET THE FULL BLESSINGS TO BLACK AMERICANS.

BUT IF WE COME TOGETHER, WE SHALL OVERCOME.

AND THAT WAS A MOMENT ALMOST AS ELECTRIC AS THE MOMENT WHERE HE USED THE PHRASE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" THE BANNER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, BRINGING IT TO THE HIGHEST COUNCILS OF POWER IN THE JOHNSON PRESIDENCY.

I THINK HE HAD A DEEP CONVICTION ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF EVERYONE HAVING A CHANCE TO RISE IN THE SYSTEM.

IT'S WHAT LINCOLN TALKED ABOUT CONSTANTLY THAT A DEMOCRACY DEPENDED ON THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO RISE TO THE LEVEL OF THEIR TALENT AND DISCIPLINE.

AND YOU CAN'T PUT MORE TALENT IN A PERSON.

YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM WORK HARDER, BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE THE CHANCE IF THEY CAN TO GO AS FAR AS THEY CAN.

THAT WAS LYNDON JOHNSON'S MANTRA AS WELL, AND IT WAS DICK'S AS WELL IN THE SAME SENSE, AND I THINK PROBABLY MINE TOO.

>> LESS THAN TWO YEARS AFTER THE SPEECH THAT DICK WRITES USING THE PHRASE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" FOR JOHNSON TO DELIVER AFTER THE SELMA MARCH, DICK IS OUT IN THE STREETS PROTESTING AGAINST LYNDON JOHNSON.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> AS HE SAID, WHEN HE WAS STANDING IN THE WELL OF THE HOUSE THE NIGHT JOHNSON DELIVERED THE "WE SHALL OVERCOME" SPEECH, AND HE WAS SO HEARTENED BY IT, NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WORDS HE HAD HELPED TO GIVE TO JOHNSON, MORE IMPORTANTLY HE KNEW THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WOULD PROBABLY PASS, JUST AS MARTIN LUTHER KING DID THAT NIGHT.

IT WAS SAID THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING CRIED IN SELMA WHEN HE LISTENED TO THAT SPEECH, KNOWING THAT THIS WOULD PROBABLY HELP TO MAKE THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT CHANGE IN THE COUNTRY.

AND ALLOW THAT VOTING RIGHTS BILL TO COME THROUGH.

DICK SAID THAT NIGHT, NEVER COULD I HAVE IMAGINED, AS YOU SAY, THAT TWO YEARS LATER I'D BE OUT IN THE STREETS AGAINST HIM.

AFTER HE LEFT IN THE FALL OF 1965, HE HAD BEEN UPSET ABOUT THE INCREASING FOCUS TOWARD THE WAR AWAY FROM THE GREAT SOCIETY WHILE HE WAS THERE, BUT IT WAS ONLY WHEN HE GOT OUT THAT HE BEGAN TO REALLY LOOK AT THE WAR FROM THE OUTSIDE IN, AND HE BECAME THE FIRST ADMINISTRATIVE PERSON AT A HIGH LEVEL IN 1966 TO GIVE AN ANTI-WAR SPEECH AGAINST THE WAR.

AND HE THEN GOT FRIENDLY WITH BOBBY KENNEDY, AND BOBBY KENNEDY WAS TURNING MORE AGAINST THE WAR.

AND THEN LYNDON JOHNSON BROKE WITH HIM AT THE SAME TIME.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT CREATED THE RESENTMENTS THAT LASTED THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

IT WAS A SAD ENDING TO THIS RELATIONSHIP THAT HAD BEEN MOST IMPORTANT DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

>> THIS BOOK, "AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY" IS AN UNFINISHED LOVE STORY ABOUT YOU AND HIM AND AMERICA AND AMERICA'S IDEALISM.

WHEN YOU'RE STARTING TO WORK ON THIS BOOK, DICK WRITES FOR YOU THIS SENTENCE, "FROM THE LONG VIEW OF LIFE, I SEE HOW HISTORY TURNS AND VEERS.

THE END OF OUR COUNTRY HAS LOOMED MANY TIMES BEFORE, BUT AMERICA IS NOT AS FRAGILE AS IT SEEMS."

THIS WEEK, THIS MONTH, THIS YEAR DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT?

>> I DO.

I THINK ONE OF THE GREAT BENEFITS OF BEING AN HISTORIAN, THE SOLACE YOU GET FROM IT, THE PERSPECTIVE YOU GET FROM IT, THE REFLECTIONS YOU GET FROM IT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THESE OTHER TIMES, AND I'VE CHOSEN TO WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN TURBULENT TIMES.

I MEAN, LINCOLN AND THE CIVIL WAR, OBVIOUSLY THE GREAT DEPRESSION, AND THE EARLY DAYS OF WORLD WAR II.

AND IN EACH ONE OF THOSE CASES, THE PEOPLE LIVING AT THAT TIME WERE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT DEMOCRACY WAS FRAGILE AND WOULD BE UNDONE.

SO WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THESE THINGS BEFORE.

THE PEOPLE LIVING A THE TIME WERE ANXIOUS LIKE WE'RE ANXIOUS NOW, NOT KNOWING HOW THE CHAPTER IN OUR LIFE IS GOING END.

BUT EACH TIME SOMEHOW THE COMBINATION OF LEADERSHIP AND THE COMBINATION OF CITIZENS.

WHEN LINCOLN WAS CALLED A LIBERATOR, HE SAID DON'T CALL ME THAT.

IT WAS THE ANTI-SLAVERY MOVEMENT THAT DID IT ALL.

A AND THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT WAS THERE BEFORE TEDDY ROOSEVELT, THE UNION MOVEMENT BEFORE FDR AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT BEFORE LBJ.

SO WE'VE COME THROUGH THESE HARD TIMES BEFORE.

AND YOU'VE JUST GOT TO HOPE THAT SOMEHOW WE'LL WORK OUR WAY THROUGH THIS VERY DIFFICULT TIME, AS DIFFICULT AS ANY TIME THAT I'VE LIVED THROUGH.

BUT YOU JUST KNOW WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE, AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE ABLE TO DO IT AGAIN.

>> DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.

>> DIFFICULT TIMES INDEED.