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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> QUESTIONS FOR THE PENTAGON AS NEW EVIDENCE CHALLENGES ITS ACCOUNT OF THE DEADLY 2021 KABUL AIRPORT ATTACK DURING AMERICA'S WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.
WE HAVE THAT EXCLUSIVE REPORT.
>>> THEN -- >> AM I REALLY BEING LECTURED ON MORALITY BY A KGB HACK?
>> THE RISE AND FALL OF PUTIN'S KINGMAKER.
HISTORY TOLD ON STAGE IN "PATRIOTS."
I SPOKE TO THE STAR AND DIRECTOR.
>>> PLUS -- >> COMING FROM A WORKING CLASS, POOR BACKGROUND, BEING FROM THE SOUTH, I THINK MY PERSPECTIVE IS OFTEN MISSING FROM THE CONVERSATION.
>> "I FINALLY BOUGHT SOME JORDANS."
THE AUTHOR TALKS ABOUT EXPLORING RACE, CLASS AND GRIEF FROM HIS UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.
>>> ALSO AHEAD, SOUTH AFRICA MARKS 30 YEARS OF DEMOCRACY.
WE LOOK BACK AT THE CONVERSATION WITH ANTIAPARTHEID ACTIVIST ANDREW AND PETER.
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> HELLO.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
THERE WERE SEASON OF DESPERATION AND CHAOS.
THOUSANDS OF AFGHANS AS AMERICAN TROOPS WITH DREW AND THE TALIBAN SWEPT THE COUNTRY.
THAT WAS AUGUST 2021 WHEN A CONGRESSIONAL HEARING LAST MONTH, FORMER JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN GENERAL MARK MILLEY BLAMED THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT FOR NOT ORDERING WHAT IS KNOWN AS A NONCOMBATANT EVACUATION SOONER.
OF COURSE IT ENDED IN TRAGEDY FOR MANY AT THE AIRPORT WHEN AN ISIS-K SUICIDE ATTACK KILLED MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING 13 U.S. SERVICEMEN.
FOR TWO YEARS THE U.S. HAS MAINTAINED THE DEATHS WERE ALL FROM THAT SINGLE EXPLOSION.
NEW VIDEO EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THERE WAS FAR MORE GUNFIRE THAN THE PEMT HAS EVER ADMITTED.
AS NICK PATON WALSH DETAILS IN THIS SPECIAL REPORT.
>> LET'S GO.
>> THESE ARE FRAGMENTS OF A VIDEO NOT FULLY SEEN IN PUBLIC BEFORE THAT REVEALED BRUTAL FACTS LONG DENIED BY THE U.S. MILITARY.
LET'S GO BACK TO THE HORRIFIC DUSK.
AN ISIS BOMB OUTSIDE KABUL AIRPORT TEARS THROUGH A PACKED CROWD.
THE 170 AFGHANS AND 13 AMERICAN MILITARY ARE KILLED IN THE LARGEST CASUALTY EVENT THERE IN A DECADE.
A MOMENT OF ACUTE SAVAGERY AT THE END OF AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR.
IT HAS BEEN DISPUTED EVER SINCE.
TWO PENTAGON INVESTIGATIONS HAVE INSISTED EVERYONE WAS KILLED BY THE BOMB AND DISMISSED THE ACCOUNTS TWO YEARS AGO THAT AFGHAN CIVILIANS WERE SHOT IN THE CHAOTIC AFTERMATH.
>> NO DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT ANYONE WAS EVER HIT OR KILLED BY GUNFIRE.
>> Reporter: BUT THIS NEW VIDEO WHICH BEGINS OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT'S ENTRANCE REVEALS MUCH MORE SHOOTING AFTER THE BLAST THAN THE PENTAGON SAID.
COMBINED WITH NEW ACCOUNTS TO CNN OF MARINES OPENING FIRE AND GUNSHOT INJURIES, IT CHALLENGES THE RIGOR AND RELIABILITY OF THE TWO PENTAGON INVESTIGATIONS THAT DECLARED NO AFGHAN CIVILIANS WERE SHOT DEAD IN THE CHAOTIC AFTERMATH.
THE BOMB DETONATES.
THE FOOTAGE THEN STOPS AND PICKS UP THREE SECONDS LATER.
>> RIGHT HERE.
HEY!
>> I GOT IT.
>> I GOT IT.
>> Reporter: MANY MARINES HERE WERE YOUNG.
SOME ON THEIR FIRST DEPLOYMENT.
THE GUNFIRE STARTS.
THEY RUN FOR COVER.
THIS LONG BURST IS ABOUT 17 SHOTS, BRINGING US A TOTAL OF 20.
SHOTS FIRED AND EPISODES OF FIRE BASED ON TWO FORENSIC ANALYSIS ONSCREEN.
YOU CANNOT SEE WHO WAS STILL FIRING HERE, AND WE NEVER SEE MARINES OR ANYONE FIRING IN THIS VIDEO.
SHORT, CONTROLLED BURSTS IN ISOLATION.
THE GAS CANISTER HAS EXPLODED IN THE BLAST.
IT IS CHOKING THIS MARINE.
IN A MOMENT THE TOTAL EPISODES OF GUNFIRE YOU HEARD WILL START BEING MORE THAN THE THREE THE PENTAGON HAS SAID HAPPENED.
>> HEY!
>> Reporter: THE GUNFIRE CONTINUES.
WE LEAP FORWARD 27 SECONDS.
AS AFGHANS, ARMS RAISED, RUN INTO THE AIRPORT.
>> SMOKE AND DIRT, BRO.
>> Reporter: ONE BURST, NOW ANOTHER.
THEY WONDER IF THE TALIBAN IS SHOOTING.
TWO MARINES TOLD US THEY SAW THE TALIBAN JUST AFTER THE BLAST LUOOKING AS SHOCKED AS THEY WER.
>> I'M FINE.
HEY, [ BLEEP ] I NEED ACCOUNTABILITY.
WE'RE PUSHING THEM BACK THERE.
ANY CASUALTIES -- >> Reporter: MORE SHOTS.
>> GET DOWN.
ARE YOU GOOD?
>> Reporter: MULTIPLE MARINES WE SPOKE TO WHO WERE THERE SAID THEY FELT THEY WERE UNDER FIRE.
THE PENTAGON HAS INSISTED FOR TWO YEARS, NO MILITANT GUNMEN OPENED FIRE HERE.
THEY SAID THE ONLY SHOTS FIRED HERE WERE TWO BURSTS BY U.S. MARINES AND ONE FROM U.K.
TROOPS.
ONE FROM A NEAR BY TOWER.
ALL BURSTS ALL SIMULTANEOUS.
SO ACCORDING TO THEIR INVESTIGATIONS, WE MUST BE HEARING MARINES OR THE BRITISH FIRING HERE.
MORE CONTROLLED SHOTS.
JUMP FORWARD ANOTHER 39 SECONDS AND MORE SHOTS.
THEY'RE STILL ABSORBING WHAT HAPPENED.
15 SECONDS LATER, MORE SHOOTING.
>> HEY, YOU GUYS GOOD?
HEY, HEY, LOOK AT ME.
ARE YOU GUYS IN A RIGHT STATE OF MIND?
LET'S GO.
>> Reporter: THEY HEAD OUT INTO THE CHAOS TO HELP.
YOU'VE JUST SEEN AND HEARD AT LEAST 43 SHOTS FIRED IN AT LEAST 11 EPISODES OF SHOOTING.
IT MATTERS AS IT WAS JUST SHORT OF FOUR MINUTES OF SPORADIC FIRE, MOST OF WHICH THE PENN HAS SAID FOR TWO YEARS DID NOT HAPPEN.
THAT SHOWS THE NARRATIVE OF THIS HORRIFIC AND DISPUTED EVENT IS WRONG.
THIS IS HOW TERRIFYING IT WAS FOR AFGHANS OUTSIDE MINUTES AFTER THE BLAST.
SO WHO WAS SHOOTING AND WHO WERE THEY FIRING AT?
FOR THE FIRST TIME, A MARINE EYEWITNESS HAS COME FORWARD AND TOLD CNN THE FIRST BIG BURST OF GUNFIRE AT THE START OF THE GO PRO VIDEO YOU JUST SAW CAME FROM WHERE U.S. MARINES WERE STANDING NEAR THE BLAST SITE.
HE FEARS REPRISALS FOR DESCRIBING THE GUNFIRE.
>> IT WAS MULTIPLE.
NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.
WASN'T ONESIES AND TWOSSIES.
>> Reporter: DOWN TOWARD THE ABBY GATE SNIPER TOWER FROM ROUGHLY AN AREA NOT FAR FROM WHERE THE BLAST HAD GONE OFF.
THAT'S WHERE YOU HEARD THE SHOOTING EMANATE FROM.
>> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AROUND THAT AREA, YES.
>> Reporter: AND THERE -- >> WE'RE U.S. MARINES, YES.
THIS WAS LIKELY FROM MARINES ON THE GROUND.
>> YES.
>> YOU FEEL THEY FIRED THEM TO THE GROUND?
>> I COULDN'T TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN.
>> THEY WOULDN'T HAVE FIRED INTO THE AIR, RIGHT?
>> NO.
THEY WOULD NOT HAVE FIRED INTO THE AFIR.
>> IT WAS NOT A DIRECTORY BUT IT WAS A COMMON UNDERSTANDING.
THESE ARE KIDS.
THEY'RE YOUNG AND THEY'VE ONLY BEEN TAUGHT WHAT THEY'VE BEEN TAUGHT.
SOME OF THESE KIDS HAVE BEEN WITH THE UNIT FOR QUITE LITERALLY, TWO, THREE MONTHS PRIOR TO DEPLOYMENT.
>> WHEN YOU SEE THE INVESTIGATIONS, PLURAL, THE CONCLUSIONS THEY'VE MADE THAT SAY ANYBODY WHO TALKS ABOUT GUNFIRE, PEOPLE BEING SHOT, JUST TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY, MISREMEMBERING.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?
>> IT'S A PATHETIC EXCUSE.
TO SAY THAT EVERY MARINE, EVERY SOLDIER, EVERY NAVY CORPSEMAN ON THE DECK CANNOT REMEMBER GUNFIRE IS LUNACY.
IT'S OUTRIGHT DISRESPECTFUL.
AND ESPECIALLY FOR IT TO COME FROM SOMEONE WHO WASN'T THERE.
>> SO THE OTHER MARINES WHO WERE THERE, TEN OTHER MARINES WHO DIDN'T GO ON CAMERA TOLD US THEY HEARD GUNFIRE.
A COUPLE EVEN SAID THEY SAW A GUNMAN BUT TWO OTHERS STAND OUT.
WE WERE UNABLE TO REACH THEM OURSELVES.
HE DID AN INTERVIEW WITH A MARIJUANA TURNED BARBER.
HE SAID HIS RECOLLECTIONS ARE FUZZY.
>> AS MAY SQUAD LEADER WAS PULLING ME OUT, I REMEMBER AS WE'RE WALKING, AS HE'S LIKE BUDDY-CARRYING ME WALKING PAST, I SEE MY PLATOON SERGEANT WALK PAST US SAYING, GET BACK ON THAT WALL AND SHOOT BACK.
SO I'M LIKE, OH, WE'RE IN A GUN FIGHT.
>> Reporter: ANOTHER FIGHTER CARRIED OUT HERE INJURED IN HIS LEFT ARM TOLD THE BARBER, HE SHOT SOMEONE WHO HE THOUGHT WAS SHOOTING AT HIM.
>> ALL I HEAR IS RINGING [ BLEEP ] AND FLASHES GOING OFF AND THEN I START HEARING SNAPS.
I STARTED REALIZING, THAT'S A DUDE SHOOTING AT ME.
WHILE THE SHOOTING -- I REMEMBER LOOKING AT THE GUY.
HE'S LIKE, HE'S JUST THERE.
AND THEN HE JUST, IT LITERALLY LOOKED LIKE -- [ BLEEP ] I'M LOOKING AROUND HIM, I COULD SEE IMPACT.
>> Reporter: SO WHAT IF THE AFGHANS THEMSELVES, 170 OF THEM DIED.
THE PENTAGON HAS INSISTED ALL INJURIES AND DEATHS WERE FROM THE BOMB AND ITS BALL BEARINGS BUT CNN HAS WIDE-RANGING EVIDENCE POINTING TO MANY AFGHANS BEING SHOT.
TWO YEARS AGO WE HEARD 19 ACCOUNTS WHO SAW PEOPLE SHOT OR SHOT THEMSELVES, SUPPORTED BY 13 MEDICAL REPORTS OF BULLET WOUNDS.
AFGHAN MEDICAL STAFF ALSO TOLD US THEY COUNTED DOZENS OF DEAD FROM GUNFIRE.
THIS IS THE HEAD DOCTOR AT THE KABUL HOSPITAL TREATING MOST OF THE WOUNDED WHOSE TEAM ASSESSED THE INJURIES OF THE DEAD AS THEY LAID OUT IN THE PARKING LOT THAT NIGHT.
>> YOU HAD BACK ABOUT THAT NIGHT?
SOMETIMES?
>> OF COURSE.
>> Reporter: BACK THEN HE WAS AFRAID TO SPEAK OPENLY.
HE IS NOW SAFE AND WANTED TO SAY ON CAMERA HOW HE PULLED BULLETS OUT OF PATIENTS.
HOW HIS TEAM COUNTED OVER 50 DEAD FROM GUNFIRE AND HOW HIS MANY YEARS TREATING COMBAT INJURIES MEANT HE CAN DIAGNOSE A BULLET WOUND.
>> IT COMES WITH SEVERE INJURIES.
LOTS OF HOLES IN THE BODIES.
BUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAD JUST ONE OR TWO HOLES, IN THE CHEST OR THE HEAD.
170 PEOPLE WERE KILLED TOTALLY.
BUT THERE ARE JUST, WHAT WE HAVE, MAYBE 145.
>> Reporter: AND BY YOUR ESTIMATION, ABOUT HALF, MORE THAN HALF WERE KILLED BY GUNSHOTS.
THE NIGHT WOULD GET DARKER STILL.
HE STARTED GETTING PHONE CALLS IN THE LOCAL LANGUAGE, THREATENING HIM AND HIS STAFF TO STOP LOOKING INTO WHO HAD BEEN SHOT.
>> HE TOLD ME, WHAT ARE YOU DOING, DOCTOR?
AND YOU LAUGH, YOUR LIFE, YOU, YOU LOVE YOUR LIFE.
YOU LOVE YOUR FAMILY.
THIS IS NOT GOOD WHEN YOU'RE COLLECTING DATA.
IT WOULD MAKE DANGER SITUATION FOR YOU.
AND YOU SHOULD STOP THAT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
>> Reporter: SO WHEN YOU HEAR THE AMERICAN INVESTIGATION SAY THAT YOU'RE JUST WRONG, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- >> I WONDER -- I HOPE FOR ONE DAY THEY ASK ME, THEY CALL ME WHAT YOU SAW.
YOU CAN HEAR AND ASK ME.
YOU COME TO KABUL AND ASK ME ABOUT IT, THE SITUATION.
THEY NEVER ASKED ME.
>> Reporter: EVEN THOUGH WE DESCRIBED THE VIDEO IN OUR FINDINGS IN GREAT DETAIL TO THE PENTAGON, THEY SAID THEY WOULD NEED TO EXAMINEFULLY UNSEEN VIDEO BEFORE THEY COULD ASSESS IT.
THEY SAID THE FIRST INVESTIGATION HAD ALREADY LOOKED AT ALLEGATIONS OF OUTGOING FIRE FROM U.S. AND COALITION FORCES FOLLOWING THE BLAST.
THEY SAID THEIR REVIEW FOCUSED NOT ON GUNFIRE BUT THE BOMBER AND EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE BLAST.
BUT FOUND NO NEW EVIDENCE OF A COMPLEX ATTACK AND UNCOVERED NO NEW ASSERTIONS ABOUT THE OUTGOING FIRE HAVING NO MATERIAL IMPACT ON THE INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATORS HAVE ALSO NOT INTERVIEWED ANY AFGHANS FOR THEIR REPORT, THE PENTAGON THAT, LEAVING THE QUESTION, HOW HUNGRY FOR THE TRUTH ARE THEY?
>>> EVERYONE HAS AN ORIGIN STORY INCLUDING VLADIMIR PUTIN.
THAT'S WHAT ACTOR MICHAEL STUHLBARG TOLD ME.
HE IS PLAYING BORIS BEREZOVSKY WHO LAUNCHED IT FROM OBSCURITY INTO THE KREMLIN.
"PATRIOTS" IS WRITTEN BY THE CROWN CREATOR PETER MORGAN.
IT BRINGS TO LIFE, SET AGAINST THE CHAOTIC BACKGROUND OF POST SOVIET RUSSIA.
HERE'S A CLIP.
>> IT CANNOT BE RUN BY BUSINESSMEN.
SOCIAL POLICY CANNOT BE BY BUSINESSMEN.
FOREIGN POLICY CANNOT BE DETERMINED BY BUSINESSMEN.
>> BY WHOM THEN, POLITICIANS?
DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A POLITICIAN YOU TRULY RESPECT ANYWHERE?
>> I SPOKE WITH STUHLBARG AND RUPERT GOOLD ABOUT CAPTURING THAT HISTORY-MAKING MOMENT ON STAGE.
MIC MICHAEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THIS IS AN AREA OF IMMENSE INTEREST TO ME.
I THINK WHAT IS SO SUCCESSFUL ABOUT THIS PRODUCTION IS YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE FROM THE SOVIET UNION.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A RUSSIA WALKER TO WALK OUT WITH CHILLS AND GET A SENSE OF THAT TIME IN HISTORY AND THE ARC THROUGH PRESENT-DAY RUSSIA.
WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO BUILD THE SHOW AROUND THIS MAN?
>> IT IN THE WEST, IN MY LIFETIME, I THINK ABOUT RUSSIA AND IT WAS A HUGE FOCUS THROUGH '80s.
ANYONE LIVING IN THE WEST, GREAT BRITAIN OR AMERICA, WE'VE BEEN SUPER AWARE THE OF THE COLD WAR.
THEN THE LAST TEN YEARS, THE LAST FEW YEARS, WE'VE BECOME GRIMLY FIXATED WITH WHAT IS GOING ON IN RUSSIA AND THE SOVIET REPUBLICS.
THERE WAS A PERIOD IN THE 1990s, TO SOME EXTENT, WE KNEW THAT THE COLD WAR HAD FALLEN.
I THINK I WAS LEAVING SCHOOL AROUND THE TIME THE WALL CAME DOWN.
AND THAT PERIOD WHICH PEOPLE TALK ABOUT NOW.
THE 'NAYS AND THE WEST, THE PERIOD OF PEACE WHEN EVERYTHING WAS GREAT.
OF COURSE, IN RUSSIA WASN'T.
IT WAS A TIME OF HUGE CHAOS.
THIS MASSIVE POLITICAL SYSTEM HAD COLLAPSED.
AND INTO THIS ANARCHY, THIS SORT OF GANGSTER LIKE ANARCHY AROSE THESE EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNISTIC, VERY BRILLIANT, SOMETIMES CORRUPT, SOMETIMES PRINCIPLED, SOMETIMES SUPER AMBITIOUS, INTERESTINGLY PREDOMINANTLY BRILLIANT JEWISH MEN, A LOT OF THEM WERE, WHO BECAME THE CENTRAL OLIGARCHS WHO TO SOME EXTENT REBUILT THE RUSSIAN STATE IN THE '90s.
AND BEREZOVSKY WHO MICHAEL PLAYS, THE PERSON WHO WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING.
>> AND MICHAEL, HOW FAMILIAR WERE YOU BEFORE YOU WERE APPROACHED FOR THIS ROLE WITH BORIS BEREZOVSKY?
>> NOT AT ALL.
>> WAS THAT IN HINDSIGHT AFTER YOU RESEARCHED THIS MAN?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
EVERY ELEMENT OF PETER'S SCRIPT WAS A SURPRISE.
EVERY ELEMENT WAS NEW.
EVERY ELEMENT GAVE ME A RABBIT HOLE TO DIVE DOWN.
THERE IS SO MUCH INFORMATION PACKED IN THERE.
I WAS VERY INTIMIDATED BY IT BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT DOESN'T PRECLUDE ANYBODY FROM ENJOYING THE EVENING AND THE THRUST OF THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED DURING THE COURSE OF THE SHOW.
BUT IT WAS A GREAT CHALLENGE.
I KIND OF THRIVE ON THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.
>> YOU CAPTURED BEREZOVSKY BRILLIANTLY.
A BRILLIANT MATHEMATICIAN, A JEWISH OPPORTUNIST, VIEWED THE '90s AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM TO NOT ONLY ENRICH HIMSELF BUT THE COUNTRY AND THE FUTURE PATH THE COUNTRY WAS HEADED DOWN.
THE FACT THAT HE WAS ABLE TO, IN A SENSE, PLUCK VLADIMIR PUTIN AS THE GUY WHO HE COULD CONTROL, WHO HE COULD MOLD INTO THAT LEADER WHO COULD WORK WITH HIM TOWARD HIS VISION, LET'S SAY, THE BETTER PART OF HIS VISION, A DEMOCRATIC FREE RUSSIA WITH FREE PRESS, BUT ALSO WON THAT WOULD ENRICH HIM, DID THAT SURPRISE YOU, GO THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE TWO MEN?
>> EVERYONE HAS AN ORIGIN STORY.
EVERYONE STARTS SOMEWHERE.
IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE TO ME DURING THE CHAOS OF THAT TIME THAT PEOPLE DID FAVORS FOR EACH OTHER.
AND AS RUPERT MENTIONED EARLIER, HE WAS A DEPUTY MAYOR WHEN THEY FIRST MET.
THEY BECAME VERY FRIENDLY.
AND I THINK FOR BEREZOVSKY, PUTIN WAS A UNIQUE FIGURE.
HE DIDN'T ASK FOR ANYTHING IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HELP HE GAVE THEM IN THE OFFICE THAT HE WAS OCCUPYING AS DEPUTY MAYOR.
AND I THINK THAT STRUCK BEREZOVSKY AS BEING UNIQUE.
PEOPLE WERE ALWAYS ASKING FOR FAVORS.
>> HE COULDN'T BE BOUGHT.
>> INDEED.
BUT THEY BECAME FRIENDLY AND THEY EVEN VACATIONED TOGETHER.
AS HE SAID IN ONE OF THE INTERVIEWS, THEY WEREN'T CLOSE FRIENDS BUT THEY WERE FRIENDS.
AND THEN YOU DO FAVORS FOR EACH OTHER.
AND IN THIS NEW CLIMATE OF BUSINESS, THAT WAS PUTIN'S JOB, REALLY, TO TRY TO ENCOURAGE THAT KIND OF GROWTH IN THE COUNTRY.
AND IT KIND OF TOOK OFF FROM THERE.
>> THE PLAY IS CALLED "PATRIOTS."
YOU HAVE TWO MAIN CHARACTERS.
VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHO DREAM OF POWER, WHO CAN'T BE BOUGHT.
AND THEN YOU HAVE BORIS BEREZOVSKY WHO DREAMS OF POWER AND WEALTH, AND MAKING A FORTUNE FOR HIMSELF AND AS WE MENTIONED, A VISION THAT HE FORESAW FOR THE COUNTRY.
WHO DO YOU VIEW AS THE REAL PATRIOT IN THIS SHOW?
>> I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL, HONESTLY.
THE IDEA OF THE WORD TO ME, AT LEAST HOW IT SEEMS TO RESONATE IN THE PLAY, IS THE LOVE OF COUNTRY.
AND PEOPLE EXPRESS THAT VERY DIFFERENTLY.
I THINK EACH INDIVIDUAL HAS THEIR OWN STRONG IDEA OF LOVE OF COUNTRY.
AND TO HAVE TO LEAVE, BUT TO DESPERATELY WANT TO COME BACK IS SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE CAN RELATE TO.
>> HE ALWAYS VIEWED HIS LIFE BEING IN RUSSIA AND PERHAPS AT THE CONTROL.
AS CLOSE AS HE GOT TO THE TOP AT ONE POINT.
WHAT YOU'VE DONE EFFECTIVELY IS CAPTURE SOME OF THE MAIN THEMES OF RUSSIA.
AND I WOULD ARGUE THEN AND TODAY.
AND THOSE ARE GREED, POWER, AND LOYALTY.
AND THESE THREE CHARACTERS REALLY, I THINK, ENCOMPASSED A LOT OF THAT.
FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN, LOYALTY WAS EVERYTHING.
>> YEAH.
IT'S INTERESTING.
I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT RESONATES OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA IS THIS IDEA OF HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT BUSINESSMEN OR WOMEN RUNNING THE COUNTRY?
WHEN I SPOKE TO RUSSIANS, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH OLIGARCHS, THEY KEPT IMPRESSING ON ME THAT THE RULE OF LAW WAS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN A THING IN RUSSIA THE WAY IT HAS BEEN WITH AMERICA AND GREAT BRITAIN.
SO BUSINESS RELATIONSHIPS, INDEED, ALL RELATIONSHIPS AND ONE THE OF THE CENTRAL IDEAS IS THIS IDEA OF A GODFATHER IDEA WHO CAN PUT THEIR ARM AROUND YOU.
>> PROTECT YOU.
>> EXACTLY.
LIKE A GODFAE DSGODFATHER.
THAT POLITICAL INTERACTIONS IN RUSSIA OFTEN HAVE THAT COLOR, THAT PATTERN, AS IT WERE.
AND THE PLAY EXPLORES WHY THAT IS SO IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY TO PUTIN WHO BELIEVES IN THIS CODE OF LOYALTY WHICH IS IRONIC.
HE'S NOT HIMSELF BEEN ENTIRELY LOYAL.
IT'S A VERY BIG THING IN HIS SENSE OF PATRIOTISM AND HIS KGB BACKGROUND.
>> WE SEE A SENSE OF WHAT RUSSIA COULD HAVE BEEN.
THERE WAS A MOMENT BETWEEN ACTS WHERE VLADIMIR PUTIN EARLY ON, I THINK IT WAS THE SUMMER OF 2000.
HE CALLED ALL THE RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS TO MEET WITH HIM AND GAVE THEM AN ULTIMATUM.
YOU KEEP YOUR MONEY IF YOU GET OUT OF POLITICS.
I'M SO GLAD THAT WAS INCLUDED.
BEREZOVSKY WAS ALREADY ON THE OUTS WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.
HE WASN'T IN THAT MEETING.
IT TELLS YOU ABOUT, A, MAYBE HE COULD HAVE BEEN SYMPATHETIC, THAT HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO RESTORE ORDER.
YOU ALSO SAW THE PATH, SADLY, THE COUNTRY HAS GONE DOWN.
>> AND PEOPLE SAY ABOUT MOSCOW.
IT WAS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS IN THE '90s.
AND FOR MOST OF THIS CENTURY, IT HAS BEEN MUCH SAFER.
THEY SAID THAT ABOUT MUSSOLINI.
THAT'S THE NATURE OF AUTHORITARIANISM.
AND ALSO, ONCE YOU PUT ALL THE POWER IN THE HANDS OF ONE PERSON, THEY CAN USE IT AUTO AUTOCRATICALLY, THEN THINGS CAN CHANGE VERY QUICKLY.
BUSINESSMEN CAN BE CO-OPTED OR EVEN WORSE, ASSASSINATED.
SO YEAH, THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT IN THE STORY OF PUTIN AND THE ULTIMATE RISE AND FALL.
>> TOM HOLLANDER PLAYED THE ROLE IN LONDON.
NOT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM TOM.
HE'S A BRILLIANT ACTOR.
I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYONE ELSE.
I DIDN'T SEE HIM.
WHEN I SAW YOU, I SAW BEREZOVSKY AND I SAY THAT WITH THE UTMOST ALMOST AND COMPLIMENT.
I STUDIED THIS MAN FOR MANY YEARS.
THE RISE AND FALL.
AND YOU BROUGHT HUMILITY AND HUMANITY TO THE CHARACTER OF SOMEBODY WHO YOU CAN'T DESCRIBE AS YOUR IDEA OF JUST A HERO.
BUT YOU ALSO SENSE THAT THEREIN LIES A PERSON.
HE WAS DOING SOMETHING GOOD AS WELL, CONTROLLED THE LARGEST TELEVISION NETWORK, INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NETWORK AT ONE POINT.
YOU LOOK AT WHERE RUSSIA IS TODAY.
AND THEN YOU SEE THE SAD DECLINE OF A PLAN WE KNOW WAS EXILED.
FROM YOUR INITIAL RESEARCH INTO HIM, INTO HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT HIM TODAY.
CAN YOU JUST TALK TO US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IF ANYTHING HAS CHANGED?
ARE YOU MORE SYMPATHETIC TO HIM?
>> I LEARN ABOUT HIM EVERY DAY, HONESTLY.
I'VE SURROUNDED MYSELF WITH A COLLAGE OF PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIM FROM DIFFERENT POINTS IN HIS LIFE WHEN HE WAS FEELING DIFFERENT THINGS.
WHEN HE WAS EXPERIENCING GOING THROUGH A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN HIS YOUTH.
HE WAS SO VIGOROUS.
TOWARD THE END OF HIS LIFE AS WELL AND ALL THESE THINGS KIND OF, AS WILL HAS, WILL KEEN WHO PLAYS HIM IN THE SHOW, EXTRAORDINARY.
HE MENTIONED OCCASIONALLY IN THE CONVERSATIONS THAT WE'VE HAD ABOUT FINDING HIS WAY INTO PUTIN'S FACE.
THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT SURROUNDING MYSELF WITH IMAGES, THE SOUND OF HIS VOICE, THE THING THAT BORIS DID AND LIVED THROUGH.
THAT I FIND HAPPENING IN THE DOING OF IT WHICH IS WONDERFUL.
IT'S SORT OF A GIFT IN SOME WAYS.
WE ARE WHO WE ARE.
WE LOOK LIKE WHAT WE LOOK LIKE.
IF YOU OBSERVE SOMEONE LONG ENOUGH -- AND YOU MAKE A POINT OF TRYING TO WALK IN THEIR SHOES, IT IS A BLESSING WHEN THERE ARE MOMENTS THAT FEEL LIKE THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HOW THAT INDIVIDUAL FELT.
AND THAT IS JUST ONE OF THE KINDS OF MIRACLES THAT I GET TO DO WHEN I GET TO DO IT.
WHICH IS FEELING WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE SOMEONE ELSE FOR A LITTLE WHILE.
>> I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT WILL UP.
IT WAS JUST BRILLIANT TO WATCH THE PHYSICALITY THAT HE EMBRACED.
AND REALLY BECAME TOWARD THE END OF THE SHOW.
VLADIMIR PUTIN.
I MEAN, THERE YOU HAVE IT ONSET WHERE HE LOOKS AT HIMSELF IN THE MIRROR.
WHETHER IT IS HIS WALK, THE WELL-TAILORED SUIT.
HE WENT FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS NOBODY.
HE WENT FROM SOMEONE OBSCURE AND INSECURE TO THE MAN WE SEE NOW INVADING A SOVEREIGN NEIGHBOR, KILLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.
DOES THAT GIVE YOU CHILLS WHEN YOU SEE IT?
WHEN YOU WATCH THE SHOW YOURSELF?
>> YES.
ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THERE ARE TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT ON PETER.
ONE WAS THAT HE WAS ALMOST SOCIO PATHIC FROM THE BEGINNING, AND CORRUPT FROM THE START, AND GO THE OTHER IS THAT HE'S GONE THROUGH THREE PHASES.
KGB, APPARATCHIK, AND THEN MIGHT HAVE BEEN REACHING OUT TO THE WEST AND YOU SEE ALL THE EXTRAORDINARY PITCHES OF HIM IN THE LATE '90s.
THE QUEEN IN THE WEST MEETING MAJOR -- >> THE FIRST WORLD LEADER TO CALL U.S. PRESIDENT BUSH AFTER 9/11.
>> QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE THOUGH.
QUITE UNEASY IN HIS CLOTHES.
AND THEN NOW THE HORSEBACK RIDING.
THE STRONG MAN, I GUESS.
I GUESS PEER'S APPROACH IS MORE THAT HE'S GONE FROM SOMEONE LIKE A JOURNEY FROM A SMALL NOBODY, A BACKWATER NOBODY TO THIS HUGE AUTHORITARIAN FIGURE.
BUT I WOULD SAY THAT ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS ABOUT BORIS IS HE'S VERY POROUS.
THE MORE YOU READ ABOUT BORIS, HE RUNS TOWARD YOU.
YOU FIND ALL THESE EXTRAORDINARY THINGS ABOUT YOU.
HE'S EXPRESSIVE AND LIVES HIS ALMOST THEATRICAL LIFE.
PETER AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING THIS PLAY FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW.
AND HE REMAINS PRETTY UNREADABLE.
I MEAN, THERE ARE GLIMPSES.
AND WHAT'S WONDERFUL ABOUT THEATER, AN ACTOR, IT MAY BE PHYSICAL.
WHY DOES HE HOLD HIS ARM IN THAT POSITION?
WHY DOES HIS FACE STAY STILL?
AND THEY BECOME LEGIBLE IN SOME WAY.
YEAH.
UNFORTUNATELY IN MANY WAYS, HE'S AN ONGOING FASCINATING FIGURE.
>> THE RULE OF ANTISEMITISM IS BROUGHT UP HERE AS WELL DESPITE THE IMMENSE WEALTH THAT THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO CAPTURE.
THAT DIDN'T TAKE AWAY WHAT THEY LARGELY KNEW WAS THE ANTISEMITISM THAT REMAINED PREVALENT IN RUSSIA TO THE HIGHEST ECHELONS.
WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU TO PORTRAY ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS ACCESS TO THE PRESIDENT.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU SEE ANTISEMITISM EVERYWHERE.
>> SURE.
I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY FOR BORIS.
SOMETHING HE GREW TO ACCEPT.
HE'S SPOKEN ONE OF HIS INTERVIEWS ABOUT JUST THE GENERAL FACT THAT POLITICS WASN'T AVAILABLE FOR JEWS IN THE SOVIET UNION.
EVEN THOUGH HE GREW TO HAVE AMBITIONS IN THAT ARENA.
AND THEN EVENTUALLY BECAME A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT.
SO HE WAS A UNIQUE INDIVIDUAL IN THAT SENSE.
HE, BECAUSE OF HIS POSITION, BECAUSE OF THE IMMENSE WEALTH THAT HE AMASSED, HE WAS INVITED TO PARTICIPATE.
WHICH IS AN INTERESTING POINT IN AND OF ITSELF.
BUT HE SEEMED WILY ABOUT THE WHOLE THING AND I THINK AS HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T LIKE IT.
BUT HE LIVED THROUGH IT.
AND HE THRIVED AS A MATHEMATICIAN IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE AS WELL FOR YEARS BEFORE HE MADE THESE FORTUNES.
>> I THINK PETER WANTED TO MAKE RUSSIANS FEEL SEEN WHEN THEY COME TO SEE THE SHOW.
YES, THEY ARE VICTIMS, OR RECIPIENTS OF ACTIONS BY POWERFUL AND SOMETIMES OVERAMBITIOUS MEN.
BUTS THE ALSO PART OF RUSSIA THAT IS SOMETHING ELSE.
AND THE PLAY IS CALLED "PATRIOTS" BECAUSE THERE IS A NATIONAL SPIRIT TO RUSSIA THAT EXISTS OUTSIDE BRUTAL POWER POLITICS.
AND WE WOULD WANT TO HOLD ON TO IT AND KEEP SEEING THAT.
>> THANK YOU.
IT WAS A REAL JOY TO MEET YOU IN PERSON.
I'M STILL THINKING ABOUT THIS PLAY HAVING SEEN IT A WEEK AGO.
>> IT IS INDEED A WONDERFUL PLAY.
>>> WE TURN NOW TO AN INTIMATE EXPLORATION OF RACE AND CLASS IN AMERICA AS A BLACK WORKING CLASS GAY MAN, CULTURAL CRITIC MIKE ARCENEAUX HAS ENCOUNTERED MANY BARRIERS IN LIFE AND USES HUMOR TO HIGHLIGHT DIFFICULT BUT SOMETIMES IMPORTANT SUBJECTS.
NOW A NEW COLLECTION OF ESSAYS.
"I FINALLY BOUGHT SOME JORDANS."
REFLECTING ON HIS JOURNEY OVERCOMING SOCIETAL BARRIERS FROM DEBT TO HETERONORMATIVITY.
>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> REALLY HAPPY TO BE HERE.
>> "I FINALLY BOUGHT SOME JORDANS."
WHY JORDANS?
>> INITIALLY THE BOOK HAD A DIFFERENT TITLE.
I THOUGHT IN MY MIND, I DON'T WANT TO SAY A VICTORY LAP BUT I THOUGHT I WOULD BE IN A HAPPIER SPACE.
I TALK ABOUT THE PLAY DURING THE PANDEMIC.
I TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF GRIEF.
IN MY SECOND BOOK, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE INTERVIEWING ME SAYING, ARE YOU STILL POOR?
I DIDN'T QUITE KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
THAT'S MY WAY OF SAYING ESSENTIALLY, I'M NOT EXACTLY WHERE I WANT TO BE BUT I'M MUCH FURTHER ALONG THAN WHERE I STARTED.
IN WHAT WAY CAN I SAY THAT?
LIKE I NEED TO BUY SOME Js.
I THINK IT SPEAKS TO THE SPIRIT OF THE BOOK.
ME TRYING TO FIND WHAT I CONSIDER LITTLE BRIGHT SPOTS.
>> YOU ARE KIND OF THE VOICE OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, I WOULD SAY, IN YOUR ESSAYS, YOUR CULTURAL CRITIQUE.
YOU ARTICULATE A LOT OF PEOPLE'S REALITIES.
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR WRITING FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH IT?
>> I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.
WHEN I INITIALLY TRIED TO SELL MAY FIRST BOOK, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO GET PEOPLE SOME KIND OF POINT OF REFERENCE.
I SAID IT IS LIKE, I THINK I WRITE FROM A PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU DON'T USUALLY HEAR IT IN THE SPACE.
THERE ARE PLENTY OF BLACK WRITERS AND QUEER WRITERS, BUT I THINK BEING POOR FROM THE SOUTH, I THINK MY PERSPECTIVE IS OFTEN MISSING FROM THE CONVERSATION.
PARTICULARLY ABOUT A LOT OF THE TOPICS THAT I WERE ABOUT.
SO FOR ME I DO IN SOME WAYS TRY TO AT LEAST BRING PERSPECTIVES OF PEOPLE WHOSE VOICES I THINK AREN'T TYPICALLY HEARD.
THAT INCLUDES MY OWN.
I APPRECIATE THAT.
I DO LIKE TO LEND A VOICE.
>> IT SEEMS IN A WAY, YES, YOU'RE WRITING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF WHO YOU ARE.
YOU ARE BLACK.
YOU ARE QUEER.
YOU ARE A MILLENNIAL.
BUT YOU'RE ALSO A PERSON WHO IS KIND OF LIKE, WHAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE HERE?
WHAT IS THIS REALLY ABOUT?
SO IN THAT SENSE, FOR THIS THIRD BOOK, IS THERE LIKE A THROUGH LINE WITH YOUR OTHER TWO BOOKS?
>> YES, IN TERMS FAMILY, THERE IS THE THROUGH LINE.
I WERE ABOUT LOVING YOUR PARENTS BUT SOMETIMES HAVING COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIPS.
PARTICULARLY DUE TO FAITH OR WHATEVER ISSUES THERE MIGHT BE.
I WRITE ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO MEET SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING AS BEST THEY CAN TO REACH OUT.
FOR ME THAT'S IN TERMS OF HEALING.
I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS FORESHADOWING THAT BUT I MAKE SURE I MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH BOTH MY PARENTS AND REALLY TRY TO ENGAGE HALF WAY.
LAST YEAR, FINISHING THE BOOK, AND REVISING IT, MY MOTHER WAS DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER AND SHE DIED SIX MONTHS LATER.
AND SOME OF WHAT I WRITE ABOUT GOING BACK TO TEXAS AFTER I LEFT NEW YORK, NOT GOING BACK BUT TO BE PRESENT.
THAT'S SOMETHING I'M NEVER GOING TO GET BACK IN MY LIFE.
I THINK IN TERMS OF, I FINALLY BOUGHT SOME JORDANS, DEBT HAS DEFINED SO MUCH OF MY LIFE, AND THE SHAME THAT GOES WITH THAT.
EXPLICITLY BLACK POOR PEOPLE ARE TAUGHT NOT TO TREAT THEMSELVES AND TO HAVE SHAME.
GROWING UP IN THE '90s, I DIDN'T HAVE THE MEANS.
INSTEAD OF SPENDING MONEY ON JORDANS, YOU NEED TO DO THIS.
BUT YEAH.
I JUST REALLY WANT TO BE HONEST ABOUT MY LIFE AND TAKE THINGS THAT HAVE IMPACTED ME AND THE WORLD AROUND ME.
I WISH MORE PEOPLE LIKE ME WERE GIVEN THE SPACE TO DO THAT.
>> TO MAKE KIND OF A HARD PIVOT HERE, SO WHY DID TONI BRAXTON BLOCK YOU?
>> I'LL STILL TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT.
THANK YOU FOR ASKING.
UNBLOCK ME.
HOW CAN AN ANGEL BREAK MY HEART?
>> I THINK IT IS A MISCOMMUNICATION.
I WAS ON TWITTER AS ONE USED TO BE.
I DON'T TWEET AS MUCH AS I USED TO.
SOME OF YOU UNDERSTAND WHY.
AND I THINK MAYBE SOME OF MY JOKES MIGHT HAVE NOT CURLED ALL THE WAY OVER.
LIKE WHEN I SAID THAT, I MEANT IT AS A COMPLIMENT.
HER SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER, OR TONI HERSELF DID NOT FEEL THAT WAY.
>> SHOULD I PROBABLY EXPLAIN THAT IS THE FIRST ESSAY IN YOUR LATEST COLLECTION AND IT'S TITLED, PLEASE UNBLOCK ME, TONI BRAXTON.
>> PLEASE UNBLOCK ME.
>> BUT THE ESSAY GOES GO ON TO DESCRIBE YOUR SOMETIMES FRAUGHT, SHALL WE SAY, INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER BLACK CELEBRITIES.
AND YOU GO TIME AFTER TIME THESE CELEBRITIES, YOU HAVE EXPRESSED YOURSELF ABOUT AND PERHAPS YOU DON'T APPRECIATE IT AS MANY AS YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT.
>> I WAS WORN YEARS AGO THAT SOME OF MY BITING AS DESCRIBED COMMENTARY MIGHT RUB SOME PEOPLE THE WRONG WAY.
AS ONE PERSON SAID IT, YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN ROOMS WITH THESE PEOPLE AND PROBABLY SOONER THAN YOU THINK.
YOU NEED TO TONE IT DOWN OR WATCH WHAT YOU SAY.
I ALWAYS HAD THAT IN MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE ME ON THE INTERNET.
I GOT IT.
THAT WAS MY REALIZATION, OH, NO.
I'M NOT AS TONED DOWN AS I THINK.
EVEN IF I AM ALSO BEING MEASURED IN CRITICISM, WE LIVE NOW IN A CLIMATE WHERE CRITICISM IS VERY INCREASINGLY NOT WELL RECEIVED.
PARTICULARLY DIFFERENT HEADLINES, ALL THESE THINGS.
I'M ACKNOWLEDGING MY COMMENTARY, BUT IN SOME INSTANCES, PEOPLE THAT WANTED TO ADAPT MY BOOK.
THAT'S SO EXCITING.
CHANGE MY LIFE.
HELP ME GET OUT OF THE HOOD.
HELP ME GET SOME BRACES.
OH, WAIT.
I TALKED ABOUT YOU.
I WOULD LIKE TO IT MY CREDIT.
IF I'M GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, I CAN TALK ABOUT IT MYSELF MOM RAISED ME RIGHT.
I'M MANNERABLE.
HOPEFULLY SOMEDAY I GET TO TELL TONI BRAXTON, I AM SORRY.
>> IS THIS EXCHANGE KIND OF IN A WAY, KIND OF UNLOCKS THE MICHAEL ARCENEAUX APPROACH, YOU CAN HAVE FUN WITH PEOPLE AND YOU DO KIND OF PLAY WITH PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT, BUT YOU GENERALLY DO HAVE KIND OF A DEEPER MESSAGE, EVEN WHEN YOU ARE HAVING FUN AND MESSING WITH PEOPLE?
I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE?
>> LOVE HOWARD, MOST DIVERSE PLACE I'VE EVER BEEN.
I NEVER MET BLACK PEOPLE THIS RICH WHO MIGHT HAVE ATTITUDES WHO GREW UP AMONG WHITE PEOPLE.
WHAT IS THAT LIKE?
WHEN I WENT TO NEW YORK AND WORKED IN MEDIA.
MEDIA ENTERTAINMENT IN GENERAL, MOST PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD THE SACRIFICES NECESSARY TO EXIST AND THRIVE WITHIN THOSE SPACES.
MOST PEOPLE ARE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS OR RICH, OR IF YOU'RE BLACK, WHAT WE CONSIDER MIDDLE CLASS, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH A PRIVILEGE MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE.
I WRITE ABOUT IT.
UNLESS YOU HAVE IT, IT IS HARD TO HAVE ACCESS TO MANY OF THESE SPACES.
>> GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
>> IF I DIDN'T TAKE OUT A SIX-FIGURE, I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE FUNDED IT DIFFERENTLY.
HAD I NOT TAKEN ONLY DOUBT TO GO TO HOWARD, I PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE SPEAKING TO YOU TODAY.
MY THROUGH LINE IS THAT I MET A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED ME ALONG THE WAY THAT I OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE MET.
MOST PEOPLE LIKE ME I FEEL LIKE DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK BACK.
IF I'M ABLE TO BE IN THESE SPACES, TO BE AROUND ALL THESE PEOPLE, AND MAYBE INFLUENCE THEM OR AT LEAST HUMANIZE WHAT THEY ASSUME ABOUT CERTAIN TYPES OF PEOPLE, THEN FOR ME I'VE DONE MY PART.
>> I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OTHER CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK.
ONE OF THEM TITLED EMPTY SYMBOLS.
YOU EXPRESS FRUSTRATION AT THE DISILLUSION FELT BY MANY MILLENNIALS GETS FRAMED AS MISINFORMED.
RIGHT?
YOU WRITE, PEOPLE HAVE VERY REAL REASONS TO BE DISENCHANTED WITH THE VOTING PROCESS AND THEY GO FAR BEYOND.
THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.
APATHY AND CYNICISM ARE NOT INNATE QUALITIES.
THEY ARE BY PRODUCTS OF WHAT PLACED THEM THERE.
WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONDITIONS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
>> WELL, FOR ME, THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THE GOVERNMENT HAS FAILED THEM.
AND A LOT OF THAT WAS MY FRUSTRATION WITH THE ELECTION.
GOING INTO 2024, I KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FALL, PARTICULARLY BLACK PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE, WILL BE LECTURED TO AND TOLD, GET UP AND VOTE.
IF YOU DON'T VOTE,YOUR FAULT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE VOTED IN THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I UNDERSTAND THE PROGRESS PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS MADE.
BUT VOTING RIGHTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TOP PRIORITY.
WAS THAT PASSED?
NO.
WAS MORE PRESSURE EXERTED ONLY AS THEY WERE FOR OTHER ISSUES?
NO.
WHO WILL GET BLAMED FOR THAT IF THEY HAVE TROUBLE GETTING TO THE POLLS WHEN THEY'RE BARELY MOTIVATED.
WAS ANYTHING DONE ABOUT POLICE REFORM?
THAT WAS THE LARGEST ISSUE IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY.
WHAT DID IT YIELD?
THE GEORGE FLOYD BILL WAS NOT PASSED.
IT LEFT AND DIED.
MORE BLACK PEOPLE ARE BEING SHOT AND HARASSED.
WHAT IS TO DO ABOUT THAT?
I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ECONOMY IS RELATIVELY BETTER COMPARED TO OTHER ISSUES.
AND THE INTEREST RATE HIKES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ALREADY STRUGGLING TO MAKE DUE.
INSTEAD OF ADDRESSING THOSE ISSUES, PEOPLE ARE TOLD, WELL, YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY IT'S NOT WORSE.
PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO FEEL JUST VOTING A BLACK MAYOR IN WON'T DO THEM ANY GOOD.
WITH ALL DUE ALMOST, LOOK AT THE NEW YORK MAYOR.
A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM TO SEE MORE POLICE ON THE STREET.
TO SEE THE RETURN OF STOP AND FRISK AND LESS ACCESS TO LIBRARIES UNDER THE BUDGET CUTS.
THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT EXAMPLES I CAN THINK OF.
>> WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING AS THE SECOND PART OF THIS, REPRESENTATION IS NOT ENOUGH.
REPRESENTATION IS NOT ENOUGH FROM THE STANDPOINT OF BARACK OBAMA OR PETE BUTTIGIEG WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST LGBTQ PRESIDENT.
>> JUST THE REPRESENTATION, HAVING SOMEONE THAT LOOKS LIKE MORE OF THE PUBLIC IS ENOUGH.
IT'S NOT.
YOU NEED ACTUAL POLICY THAT SPEAKS TO WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WHO ARE DROWNING UNDER THIS.
AND YOU NEED TO BE MORE FRANK AND DIRECT ABOUT WHEN THOSE NEEDS AREN'T BEING MET.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE APATHETIC AND ARE TUNING OUT.
NOT EVERYBODY IS WRONG AND NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE BLAMED ON THE FAULT OF THE VOTER.
THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T PARTICIPATE IN THE PROCESS BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE IT DOESN'T SPEAK TO THEM.
AT WHAT POINT DO YOU CHANGE YOUR TONE TO REACH THEM OR DO YOU FEEL LIKE WAGGING YOUR FINGER TO DO SOMETHING.
AND ALSO IN TERMS OF REPRESENTATION, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS JUST AS MANY IF NOT MORE VARIETY.
IT'S JUST THEY ALL SPEAK TO A VERY SPECIFIC IDEOLOGY.
SO THERE'S REPRESENTATION OVER THERE, TOO.
THAT'S WHY A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FINDING THEMSELVES BEING CONNED INTO RIGHT-WING IDEOLOGY BUT THEY DIRECTLY TARGET THEM.
I'M NOT THE FIRST TO MAKE THESE COMPLAINTS BUT I HOPE MORE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LISTEN.
WE COULD FIND OURSELVES MUCH DIFFERENT IN A YEAR.
WE SHOULD NOT BEAR THE BRUNT OF WHATEVER HAPPENS.
>> SO LET'S GO BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED, THE JORDANS.
WHICH ONES?
>> I BOUGHT THE JORDAN 13.
THEY WERE BLACK AND PURPLE.
I'M ACTUALLY, AS A GIFT TO MYSELF BECAUSE I JUST HAD A BIRTHDAY.
I'M FINALLY TRYING TO BUY THE 11s, THE ONCE THAT I COULDN'T GET AND I MENTION IN THE BOOK.
>> THOSE ARE FLY.
DIG IN A LITTLE MORE ABOUT WHY THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE SHOES.
COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?
WHAT DOES IT REPRESENT TO YOU?
>> I CAN REMEMBER BEING TEASED INITIALLY ABOUT SOME OF THE CLOTHES THAT I HAD OR WANTING CERTAIN THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE COULDN'T AFFORD.
I'M GRATEFUL FOR EVERYTHING MY MOM AND DAD GOT ME.
EVEN THEN I UNDERSTOOD IT.
WHEN I STARTED TO DRESS MYSELF AND I WAS WORKING, YOU FEEL CONFIDENT ABOUT NOT BEING PRICED OUT OF THINGS.
AND I THINK A LOT OF LIFE, I FELT PRICED OUT OF IT.
AND THAT'S A REALLY HARD FEELING.
MY MOM NEVER WANTED ME TO BE MATERIALISTIC AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.
I DO THINK IN TERMS OF HOW CULTURE WORKS, HOW PART OF MY OWN BUSINESS WORKS.
HOW YOU PRESENT REALLY DOES MATTER.
YOU CAN BE PRICED OUT OF A LOT OF THINGS.
AND EVEN IF YOU DON'T INTERNALIZE IT, FOR SOME OF US, FOR ME, MY BOOKS ARE TRYING TO REMOVE THE PRESSURE ON MYSELF.
I CAN BE SO SELF-CRITICAL AND THAT'S NOT JUST FROM ME.
IT'S WHAT'S AROUND ME.
I TRY TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO NOT BE AS SILLY AS I AM.
A LOT OF THESE THINGS THAT WE FEEL SHAME OR GUILT ABOUT, IT'S SILLY.
I THINK WE SHOULD BE A LITTLE KINDER TO OURSELVES AND I GO MORE THE OUTSIDE NOISE.
>> THE OTHER THING YOU WRITE ABOUT, DEBT, WHAT AN ANCHOR IT CAN BE.
THE DIALOGUE, AM I ALLOWED TO HAVE THIS WHILE I HAVE THIS DEBT HANGING AROUND MY NECK?
DO YOU THINK YOU'VE FINALLY RELEASED YOURSELF.
>> I HAVE LET GO OF OTHER LOT OF WORK.
I UNDERSTAND BILLS ARE HIGH.
EVEN IN THE INSTANCE, I DON'T HAVE A HOUSE YET.
THAT'S NOT MY FAULT.
SOMETIMES I THINK, DO I EVEN WANT A HOUSE NOW, GIVEN IF I BUY IN A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD, IT WILL BE UNDERWRITTEN, OR DEPENDING ON THE CITY, CLIMATE CHANGE MIGHT IMPACT IT.
I WILL PROBABLY CHANGE MY MIND.
THE WAY THINGS ARE SET, TRY TO TELL MY FRIENDS, NOT FRIENDS, BUT LEADERS, FRIENDS, SOME THINGS IN LIFE WERE NOT DESIGNED WITH YOU IN MIND.
SO YOU ARE PRESSURED TO FEEL YOU SHOULD MARRY BY A CERTAIN POINT BUT LOOK AT THE DATING POOL.
OR YOU SHOULD HAVE A HOUSE AT A CERTAIN AGE.
WELL, INTEREST RATES.
I'M TRYING, A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE HARDER THAN THEY SHOULD BE.
WHY AM I HOLING ON TO THIS ARBITRARY STANDARD WHERE I'M NOT GIVEN THE TOOLS TO ACHIEVE THAT?
I KNOW THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GOOD DEBT.
PARTICULARLY NOT WITH STUDENT LOANS.
ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE ARE NOT BEING PAID ENOUGH TO KEEP UP WITH THE COST OF LIVING.
TUITION IS RISING.
IF YOU DOING TO SCHOOL, IF YOU DO IT TO A SERVICE OF YOURSELFERING WITH WON'T BE ABLE TO ENJOY THE FRUITS OF YOUR LABOR.
YOU HAVE TO EVALUATE.
I THINK LETTING GO OF THESE IDEAS, I SHOULD HAVE THIS OR THAT BY WHATEVER AGE OR WHATEVER METRIC.
WE SHOULD FREE OURSELVES MORE OF THAT UNTIL EVERYBODY IS PAID MORE.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
IT WAS A PLEASURE.
>>> AND FINALLY, 30 YEARS AGO ON SATURDAY, SOUTH AFRICA HELD ITS FIRST FULLY DEMOCRATIC ELECTION, ENDING YEARS OF RACIST APARTHEID RULE IN THE COUNTRY.
NELSON MANDELA AND HIS PARTY COMING OUT ON TOP JUST FOUR YEARS IN PRISON WHERE HE SPENT THREE DECADES ALONGSIDE MANY FELLOW ACTIVISTS.
IN 2018, CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH THEM ABOUT THEIR MEMORY OF MANDELA AND HIS EXTRAORDINARY LEGACY.
>> GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I WANT TO READ SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID AT THE TRIAL.
YOU WERE CONVICTED ALONGSIDE MANDELA AND THEY'VE ACCUSED YOU OF CONSPIRACY AND SABOTAGE, AND THE JUDGE LIKENED THIS TO HIGH CRIMES AND TREASON.
AND YOU SAID IN 2013 IN A SPEECH THAT AT THE TIME, I THOUGHT OF LIFE IN PRISONMENT AND WHAT IT MEANT.
DID IT MEN THAT I WOULD SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE IN PRISON ONLY TO BE RELEASED AS A CORPSE?
WAS THERE A CHANCE THAT I MIGHT BE RELEASED SOONER?
WOULD I MAY BE ENDING SERVING ONLY 15 YEARS?
THESE WERE JUST THE THOUGHTS OF A YOUNG ANDREW MLANGENI.
HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WERE CONVICTED AND WHEN YOU KNEW YOU ARE GOING TO THE ISLAND TO SPEND WHO KNEW HOW MANY YEARS THERE?
>> WELL, VERY HAPPY TO BE SENTENCED, EVEN TO LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
WE WERE HAPPY BECAUSE WE ESCAPED THE DEATH PENALTY.
THE FACT THAT WE ESCAPED THE DEATH PENALTY, WE ALL FELT VERY, VERY HAPPY INDEED.
WE SAID, WELL, LIFE IMPRISONMENT WE CAN SERVE.
WE DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO HAS DIED IN PRISON, WHO HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON.
PEOPLE GO 15 YEARS, 20 YEARS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
WE KNOW THAT ULTIMATELY WE WILL COME OUT.
WE WERE VERY, VERY EXCITED AND HAPPY THAT WE WERE NOT SENTENCED TO DEATH.
>> LET ME FIRST PLAY WHAT NELSON MANDELA SAID WHEN HE WAS RELEASED IN 1990.
HE WAS AS DESMOND TUTU'S HOUSE GIVING A PRESSER.
>> I MUST CONFESS, I WAS COMPLETELY OVERWHELMED.
IT IS SOMETHING I DID NOT EXPECT.
>> PETER, I WANT TO ASK YOU.
HE WAS ALWAYS VERY HUMBLE AND HE SAID THERE, THAT HE HAD NO IDEA HE WOULD BE REMEMBERED AS THAT AND ALSO, THE INCREDIBLE EMOTIONS THAT POURED OUT.
ONE OF THE INCREDIBLE THINGS ABOUT MANDELA WAS HIS ABILITY TO LET GO OF RESENTMENT.
IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAY AS HE WALKED OUT OF PRISON, HE SAID YES, I WAS ANGRY AND A LITTLE AFRAID.
I HAD NOT BEEN FREE IN SO LONG.
WHEN I FELT THAT ANGER WELL UP INSIDE OF ME, IF I HATED THEM AFTER I GOT OUTSIDE THAT GATE, THEY WOULD STILL HAVE ME.
I WANTED TO BE FREE SO I LET IT GO.
THAT'S PRETTY REMARKABLE.
>> IT'S A VERY DEEP INSIGHT AND A REMARKABLE ONE, THAT HE CAME OUT DETERMINES NOT TO SHOW ANY VENGEANCE.
NOT TO SHOW ANY HATRED.
AS HE SAYS, THE VERY REVEALING QUOTE.
IF HE DID, THEN HE WOULD STILL BE TRAPPED.
AFTER ALL, THE WHITE MINORITY WAS A VERY PRIVILEGED MINORITY.
PERHAPS THE MOST PRIVILEGED IN THE WORLD.
IT WAS DETERMINED.
>> DO YOU REMEMBER THAT MOMENT WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD WAS WATCHING THE RELEASE?
WHAT EMOTION DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU SAW THAT?
>> WELL, I WAS QUITE HAPPY.
I MEAN, TO SEE HIM COME OUT.
I SAID TO MYSELF, THE GOVERNMENT AS AT LAST HAS KEPT THEIR PROMISE, THAT AFTER A FEW MONTHS, YOU WILL FOLLOW.
>> SO I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY ANOTHER SOUND BITE FROM WAY BACK THEN WHEN HE WAS FIRST RELEASED.
HE GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO CNN.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT HIS VISION AND STICKING TO IT.
>> PEOPLE MAY SAY, THE YEARS OF LIFE YOU HAVE WASTED YOUR LIFE.
BUT THE GREATEST THING FOR THE POLITICIAN IS WHETHER THE IDEAS TO WHICH YOU HAVE COMMITTED YOUR LIFE ARE STILL ALIVE.
WHETHER THE IDEAS ARE LIKELY TO TRIUMPH IN THE END.
AND EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED SHOWED THAT WE HAVE NOT SACRIFICED IN VAIN.
>> IT IS A REMARKABLE THING TO HEAR TODAY.
I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH TO PUT MANDELA AND HIS VISION AND LIST NATURE AS A POLITICIAN IN CONTEXT WITH THE LEADERSHIP STRUGGLES WE SEE TODAY ALL OVER THE WORLD.
WE HAVE REALLY PARTISAN POLITICAL POISON IN OUR BLOOD STREAMS TODAY.
HOW DO YOU FEEL WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THIS KIND OF THING, GIVEN WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR OWN PARLIAMENTS AND CONGRESSES AND GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD?
>> I THINK THE WORLD IS CRYING OUT FOR NELSON MANDELA'S VISION.
YOU COMPARE HIM WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT PUTIN, GO WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN AND THE REST OF THEM.
THEY'RE ONLY IN IT FOR THEMSELVES.
HE WAS IN IT FOR OTHERS.
RULING WITH ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY.
SOCIAL JUSTICE, EQUALITY, HUMAN RIGHTS, DEMOCRACY.
I THINK WE COULD DO WITH STRONG LEADERSHIP.
HE WAS VERY STRONG BUT COMPASSIONATELY INTERESTED.
>> THE WHOLE WORLD SEES MANDELA'S LEADERSHIP.
>> I APPRECIATE THAT.
>> ANDREW, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
AND PETER HAIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>>> A POWERFUL MESSAGE HERE SHARED BY THOSE WHO STOOD BY MANDELA THROUGH HIS STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM AND JUSTICE.
AND A LEGACY THAT NOT ONLY RESHAPED A NATION BUT CONTINUES TO INSPIRE CHANGE AROUND THE GLOBE.
THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, YOU CAN GET OUR NEWS LETTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.