April 29, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I'M HOPEFUL THAT THEY WILL MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION.

>> U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN OFFERS NEW HOPE FOR AN ISRAEL-HAMAS CEASE-FIRE, AS ISRAELI AIR STRIKES ON RAFAH CONTINUE.

I ASK A JOURNALIST AT THE HEART OF ISRAEL'S RIGHT WING POLITICS WHAT WILL NETANYAHU DO NEXT.

THEN -- >> THEY'RE GOING TO ATTACK US, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN, BUT WE'RE GOING TO TAKE PRECAUTION.

>> TENSION RISES ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

STUDENT ISABELLA RAMIREZ, EDITOR IN CHIEF OF "THE COLUMBIA DAILY SPECTATOR," REPORTS FROM THE HEART OF THE PRO-PALESTINIAN CAMPUS PEACE MOVEMENT.

AND -- >> FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, THE INDUSTRY RELIES ON EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN'S LABOR.

>> MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH CAMERON RUSSELL.

PLUS -- >> A PRIME PARISIAN APARTMENT FOR JUST $800 A MONTH?

WE REPORT ON HOW PUBLIC SUBSIDIES KEEP PARIS A VITAL, DIVERSE CITY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TODAY, WE TALK TO TWO JOURNALISTS AT THE HEART OF CRITICAL DEVELOPMENTS IN THE ISRAEL-GAZA WAR.

FIRST, A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ANALYST CLOSE TO BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

THEN, TO A STUDENT NEWSPAPER EDITOR AT THE EPICENTER OF U.S. CAMPUS PROTESTS.

WE BEGIN WITH THE RENEWED PUSH FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

HAMAS IS SET TO MEET NEGOTIATORS IN CAIRO, AS EGYPT'S FOREIGN MINISTER CALLS ON BOTH SIDES TO ACCEPT THE PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE.

A DIPLOMATIC SOURCE SUGGESTS A TWO-STEP PROCESS OVER SEVERAL WEEKS, INVOLVING HOSTAGE RELEASES, PRISONER SWAPS, AND SOME SORT OF PAUSE IN THE FIGHTING.

SPEAKING IN SAUDI ARABIA, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN PUTS THE HONUS ON HAMAS, SAYING THEY'RE, QUOTE, THE ONLY THING STANDING BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF GAZA AND A CEASE-FIRE.

BUT ISRAEL HASN'T YET AGREED TO THE PROPOSAL, AND PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS BEING SURGED BY HIS EXTREME RIGHT FLANK TO SEND TROOPS INTO RAFAH.

HERE'S THE FINANCE MINISTER ADDRESSING THE PRIME MINISTER.

>> Translator: IF YOU DECIDE TO RAISE A WHITE FLAG AND CANCEL THE ORDER TO OCCUPY RAFAH IMMEDIATELY IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THE TASK OF DESTROYING HAMAS, AND TO RESTORE SECURITY TO THE RESIDENTS OF THE SOUTH AND TO THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, AND TO RETURN ALL OUR ABDUCTED BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO THEIR HOMES, THE GOVERNMENT HEADED BY YOU WILL HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXIST.

>> 20 PEOPLE, INCLUDING AT LEAST ONE INFANT AND A TODDLER, WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE ON RAFAH EARLIER TODAY.

NOW, FEW JOURNALISTS ARE AS CLOSE TO NETANYAHU'S THINKING AS THE ISRAELI POLITICAL ANALYST AMIT SEGAL.

HE'S JOINING US FROM JERUSALEM.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, WHETHER YOU CAN FILL IN ANY DETAILS, WHETHER YOU KNOW ANYMORE DETAILS OF A CEASE-FIRE?

PERIODICALLY, WE'RE TOLD THERE'S HOPE, AND THEN, OF COURSE, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, AND THE HOSTAGES DON'T GET RETURNED.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW NOW?

THE DETAILS?

>> AS ALWAYS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO STICK TO CAUTIOUS PESSIMISM.

ISRAEL HAS THE HABIT OF PLAYING CHESS WITH THEMSELVES, AND USUALLY LOSE.

WE HAVE A HEATED DEBATE IN ISRAEL, YOU SHOWED THE FINANCE MINISTER, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S CABINET, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, SINCE NOVEMBER, EACH AND EVERY TIME HAMAS DEMANDED ONE MAJOR THING, WHICH IS THE END OF THE WAR, AND THAT'S WHY THIS HOSTAGE DEAL HAS NOT BEEN ACHIEVED YET, AND I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I'M STILL A BIT PESSIMISTIC FROM WHAT I HEAR, BECAUSE HAMAS REFUSES TO THIS, HE UNDERSTANDS THAT AS LONG AS ISRAEL CONTINUES THE WAR, EVEN AFTER A PERIOD OF SIX WEEKS, HE IS FINISHED, IF ISRAEL DISMANTLES HAMAS IN RAFAH.

>> OKAY, I'VE ALWAYS HEARD THAT PESSIMISM, BECAUSE, YES, YOU'RE RIGHT, HAMAS WANTS A FULL CEASE-FIRE AND ISRAEL WANTS TO DO OTHER THINGS, SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, BECAUSE THE NEXT QUESTION IS, WILL THERE BE A GROUND INVASION INTO RAFAH?

>> WELL, A GROUND INVASION INTO RAFAH IS NOT AN ISRAELI WIN.

THERE IS A LOGIC INTO IT, AND THAT'S WHY ISRAEL IS PUSHING.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS THE ONLY CONSENSUS IN THE ISRAELI CABINET.

MINISTERS FROM THE LEFT SUPPORT ENTERING RAFAH AT THE END OF THE DAY, BECAUSE THERE ARE THREE STRATEGIC ASSETS BY HAMAS IN RAFAH.

ONE IS THE LAST FIVE BATTALIONS OF THIS TERROR ARMY THAT INVADED ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th WITH THOSE HORRIFIC RESULTS.

SECOND, IS THE CENTRAL FIGURES IN HAMAS, NUMBER ONE AND NUMBER TWO.

IF THEY ARE KILLED OR CAUGHT BY ISRAEL, IT MEANS THE END OF THE WAR WITH AN ISRAELI VICTORY.

AND THE THIRD THING WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, IS CUTTING THE CHAIN OF SUPPLY, THE LIFELINE FOR HAMAS, FROM EGYPT IN RAFAH.

HAMAS GETS ALL THE WEAPONS THAT IT WANTS.

JUST GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE, CHRISTIANE.

EACH CIGARETTE THAT IS SOLD IN GAZA IS SOLD BY HAMAS, AND THEY SELL IT 300 TIMES THE COST OF A SINGLE CIGARETTE.

ALL THIS MONEY GOES TO FUND TERRORISM ACTIVITY, TERRORIST ACTIVITY AGAINST ISRAEL.

THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO CUT THIS LIFELINE IN RAFAH.

>> SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER AND WHAT YOU'VE HEARD FROM YOUR SOURCES, EITHER HIM OR CLOSE TO HIM, THINKS ABOUT THE CHOICE HE HAS TO MAKE, WHETHER TO DEFY THE UNITED STATES, OR TO DO WHAT IT APPEARS HIS RIGHT FLANK IS PUSHING HIM INTO DOING.

AS YOU KNOW, A FRIEND OF ISRAEL, THOMAS FRIEDMAN, SAYS NETANYAHU HAS TO DECIDE, IS IT RAFAH ORIE YAD?

DO YOU WANT TO MAKE AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION, OR DO YOU WANT TO BE PUSHED INTO A VERY UNPOPULAR, AND VERY DIFFICULT, PARTICULARLY FOR THE PALESTINIANS, INVASION OF RAFA?

>> SO, IT'S INTERESTING, CHRISTIANE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I STOOD RIGHT HERE AT THIS VERY ROOF OF MY HOUSE IN JERUSALEM JUST TWO WEEKS AGO, AND I WATCHED THIS AMAZING SPECTACLE OF MIDDLE EASTERN COOPERATION OF SAUDIS, JORDANJORDANIANS, THERE MUSLIM, JEWISH, CHRISTIAN CORPORATION AGAINST FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM.

WHAT THOMAS FRIEDMAN ALWAYS WRITES, BY THE WAY, SINCE, GIVE OR TAKE 1995, IS A DEAL THAT I NEVER HEAR FROM SAUDIS OR PEOPLE FROM THE EMIRATES.

I ONLY HEAR IT FROM WASHINGTON, NEW YORK AND LONDON, WHICH MEANS, FOR ISRAEL TO GIVE UP ITS SECURITY AND GET THE PROSPECT FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

BY THE WAY, WHAT SAUDIS REALLY WANT?

BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, I GUESS YOU HEAR IT, AS WELL, IS ELIMINATING HAMAS AS A REGIONAL POWER.

BECAUSE IF HAMAS ENDS THIS WAR ON ITS FEET, IT MEANS THAT IT GOT AWAY WITH KILLING 1,200 ISRAELIS, AMERICANS AND BRITISH.

THAT'S WHY SAUDI ARABIA WANTS ISRAEL TO ELIMINATE HAMAS, AND I THINK IT GOES THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

I MEAN, IT'S -- I'LL PUT IT DIFFERENTLY.

FROM WHAT I HEAR, FROM SENIOR SOURCES IN JERUSALEM, BIDEN GAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT INVASION RAFAH MEANS FOR HIM THAT DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

MICHIGAN VOTERS WILL NOT FORGIVE THIS.

SO, HE LOSES MICHIGAN, AND THAT'S HOW HE LOSES THE ELECTION.

THAT'S WHY AMERICANS PUSH ISRAEL FOR NOT INVADING RAFAH.

THIS PUTS IT IN A VERY DRAMATIC MOMENT FOR BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, BUT I'M NOT SURE NETANYAHU NEEDS THOSE THREATS FROM HIS RIGHT WING.

I DON'T THINK NETANYAHU WANTS TO SKIP RAFAH.

I THINK THIS IS HIS -- WINNING THE WAR IN AN OUTRIGHT VICTORY.

>> OKAY, THERE'S A LOT YOU'VE PUT THERE, SO, OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE LIKE THOMAS FRIEDMAN AND YOUR FRIENDS IN WASHINGTON AND LONDON ALSO WANT TO SECURE ISRAEL WITH A FREE AND, YOU KNOW, FULL RIGHTS FOR THE PALESTINIANS, SO, LET'S JUST PARK THAT.

REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT NETANYAHU BELIEVES THAT THE PRESSURE HE'S GETTING IS JUST BECAUSE OF BIDEN'S UPCOMING ELECTION, BUT AS YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE, OUTSIDE AND INSIDE ISRAEL, THAT THE REASON NETANYAHU'S NOT GOING INTO -- INTO DEALS AND THIS AND THAT IS BECAUSE HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HIS OWN POLITICAL SURVIVAL, AND THAT HE CANNOT SURVIVE IF HE DOES ANYTHING THAT YOU HEARD THE FINANCE MINISTER AND THE SECURITY MINISTER AND HIS COALITION DISAPPROVE OF, AND THEY'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT HE MUSTN'T, AS THEY PUT IT, WAVE THE WHITE FLAG.

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, I CAN CONFIRM THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS A POLITICIAN THAT TAKES POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS, BUT I'LL TELL YOU WHAT THE PUBLIC OPINION IN ISRAEL BELIEVES IN.

IT BELIEVES IN FULL VICTORY OVER HAMAS.

YOU SEE IT IN EACH AND EVERY POLL.

THE MOST PERSUASIVE THING FOR NETANYAHU TO DO AS A POLITICIAN IS TO DEFEAT HAMAS.

AND AS FOR THE GOOD WILL, I'M QUITE SURE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WANTS ALL THE BEST FOR ISRAELIS, BUT THERE IS A HEATED DEBATE ABOUT WHAT WILL CAUSE IT.

I THINK THE LOGIC MEANS THAT IF HAMAS AS A WHOLE GET AWAY WITH IT, AND THEY ARE STILL STANDING ON THEIR FEET AFTER OCTOBER 7th, SO, WHAT'S NEXT?

I MEAN, YOU WILL STILL HAVE THIS TERRORIST ENEMY JUST ONE MILE FROM YOUR VOTERS.

IT WILL BE DEVASTATING FOR NETANYAHU'S PROSPECT AS A POLITICIAN, WHICH ARE NOT VERY GOOD THESE DAYS ANYWAY.

SO, I THINK NETANYAHU, OR THE PUBLIC OPINION IN ISRAEL, AND THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND, THEY'RE NOT AGAINST NETANYAHU BECAUSE HE'S TOO HAWKISH.

THEY'RE AGAINST NETANYAHU, BECAUSE THEY SEE HIM AS TOO DOVISH.

FOR INSTANCE, 72% OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION ARE AGAINST THOSE -- HUMANITARIAN AID TO HAMAS FROM THE BORDER -- FROM THE ISRAELI BORDER.

SO, FOR NETANYAHU TO BE MORE POPULAR, HE NEEDS TO GO TO BE MORE HAWKISH, RATHER THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

>> YEAH, AND YOU SAY TO HAMAS, THE HUMANITARIAN AID, BUT OF COURSE, IT'S TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHO ARE IN VERY, VERY, VERY DIRE STRAIGHTS, AND THAT ALSO IS -- IS, YOU KNOW, RAISING THE ANGER AROUND THE WORLD AGAINST ISRAEL, AS YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY SEEN, INCLUDING ON -- AMONGST MANY YOUNG PEOPLE.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, BETTER THAN I DO, OVER THE WEEKEND, THERE WERE MORE PROOF OF LIFE VIDEOS THAT WERE SENT BY HAMAS TO YOU, WELL, IN SOME WAY, RELEASED, OF TWO MALE HOSTAGES.

WE ARE NOT RUNNING THE VIDEO, BUT WE'VE SHOWN PICTURES, AND EVERY NIGHT, AS FAR AS WE CAN GATHER, THERE ARE HOSTAGE FAMILIES THAT BLAME NETANYAHU FOR SLOW ROLLING ANY DEAL TO GET THEIR LOVED ONES BACK.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY CAUSING A HUGE PROBLEM.

AT WHAT POINT DOES NETANYAHU BELIEVE, IF EVER, THAT THE HOSTAGES COME FIRST, THAT THE FAMILIES, THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, COMES FIRST?

>> OKAY, SO, THERE IS A DEBATE ABOUT THE HOSTAGES.

IF ISRAEL ACCEPTED THIS VERY SPECIFIC DEAL, IT MEANS THAT IT ENDS THE WAR WITH THREE-QUARTERS OF THE HOSTAGES STILL IN GAZA, 50 MINUTES FROM HERE BY CAR.

99 HOSTAGES WILL STILL BE IN GAZA.

SO, THE DEBATE IN ISRAEL IS NOT BETWEEN THOSE WHO WANT HOSTAGES BACK AND THOSE WHO DON'T WANT THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE, I DON'T KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING IN THEIR HEART, BUT THE QUESTION IS, WHAT HELPS THE MOST?

I'LL GIFL YOU AN EXAMPLE.

FIVE MONTHS AGO, ISRAEL PUT A STRONG MILITARY PRESSURE ON HAMAS AND IT GOT 123 HOSTAGES IN RETURN FOR, I THINK, ONLY EIGHT DAYS OF CEASE-FIRE, SO, THERE IS SENTIMENT IN ISRAEL THAT SAYS, PUT MORE MILITARY POWER AND YOU'LL GET MORE HOSTAGES.

BY THE WAY, DID ANYONE THINK -- JUST FOR A SECOND, CHRISTIANE, WHAT CAUSED HAMAS TO RELEASE THOSE VIDEO CLIPS JUST SECONDS BEFORE ISRAEL ENTERS RAFAH?

MAYBE THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE THERE, MAYBE THEY WANT TO -- TO HAVE IT AS A COMMODITY, AND ONE LAST THING ABOUT WHAT IS ABOUT STARVATION, PRICES IN GAZA, AND, IN FACT, BEG TO DIFFER, PRICES IN GAZA OF FOOD AND HUMANITARIAN SUPPLY, REDUCED DRAMATICALLY OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS, BECAUSE OF THE HUMANITARIAN AID -- >> ONLY AID HAS GOT IN, BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

>> HUMANITARIAN AID THAN BEFORE THE WAR.

>> IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

>> NOT BEFORE THE WAR, MAYBE BEFORE A FEW WEEKS AGO.

LET'S NOT ARGUE OVER FIGURES.

THAT'S THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND ALL THE AID AGENCIES SAY IT'S NOT ENOUGH, THERE ARE HORRENDOUS PICTURES, AND THAT IS WHAT IS ENFLAMING THE WORLD AGAINST YOU.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, AND PLUS, THE 35,000, YOU KNOW, DEAD.

BUT NETANYAHU'S PROMISED TOTAL VICTORY, AND YOU TALK ABOUT VICTORY.

MOST PEOPLE IN ISRAEL BELIEVE THAT THE PREVIOUS HOSTAGES WERE RELEASED BECAUSE OF THE NEGOTIATION.

YOUR IDF HAS ONLY MANAGED TO RELEASE THREE OF THEM.

THREE OF THEM, THEY KILLED.

IT'S ALMOST SEVEN MONTHS IN, HAMAS HAS NOT BEEN BEATEN, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT ONE LEADER, THE OTHERS ARE STILL THERE.

SO, I THINK PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO SAY, HOW LONG?

YOU KNOW, HOW LONG IS ITET TOTAL VICTORY?

>> IT WON'T HAPPEN WITHOUT RAFAH.

IT'S NECESSARY, BUT NOT SUFFICIENT.

>> OKAY.

>> VICTORY OVER HAMAS REMINDS ME OF THE COVID CRISIS.

DURING THE FIRST WEEK, I ASKED A PROFESSOR WHO GAVE AN INTERVIEW ON CHANNEL 12, MY CHANNEL, WHEN WILL I KNOW IT WILL END?

IT HAS ENDED?

AND HE TOLD ME, THERE WON'T BE A SPECIFIC MOMENT, BUT THERE WILL BE A DAY, YOU'LL IT IS IN A RESTAURANT IN JERUSALEM AND YOU'LL SAY, DO YOU REMEMBER THE DAYS WE HAD MASKS, THEY WORE IT IN RESTAURANTS AND BARS AND PUBS?

I THINK THE SAME THING HAPPENS FOR DEFEATING TERRORISM.

20 YEARS AGO, ISRAEL DEFEATED THE TERRORIST SUICIDE BOMBERS.

IT TOOK THREE, FOUR YEARS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE IS NO THREAT OF SUICIDE BOMBERS IN THE STREETS OF TEL AVIV AND JERUSALEM.

I'LL GIVE YOU TWO EXAMPLES.

ONE, THE NUMBER OF ROCKETS FIRED FROM GAZA REDUCED BY 99%.

THE NUMBER OF TUNNELS REDUCED BY 70%.

THE ABILITY TO INVADE ISRAEL AND TO MASSACRE, BEHEAD, RAPE, AND MURDER DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE.

SO, I THINK WE HAVE TO GO THERE, AND JUST ONE THING, CHRISTIANE, 20 YEARS AGO, TO THE DATE, THERE WAS A LETTER, A PRESIDENTIAL COMMITMENT MADE BY PRESIDENT BUSH, IN ORDER TO PERSUADE THE ISRAELI PUBLIC TO -- HE WROTE THE THEN PRIME MINISTER SHARON THAT THE U.S. WILL WORK TO DISMANTLE EVERY TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THAT MIGHT TRY TO SEIZE GAZA STRIP.

SO, THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND, NOW TRYING TO PREVENT ISRAEL FROM DOING IT, IT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL RISK NOT ISRAEL, BUT THE VERY COMMITMENT, THE VERY MEANING OF PRESIDENTIAL SEAL AND PRESIDENTIAL COMMITMENT.

>> SO FAR, I THINK I'VE READ YOU LOUD AND CLEAR THAT AS FAR AS YOU AND YOUR CONTACTS KNOW, THERE WILL BE A RAFAH INVASION, INCURSION, GROUND, BUT NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE OTHER NEWS THAT'S COME UP THIS WEEKEND.

ISRAELI MEDIA, SO, THAT'S YOU ALL, ARE REPORTING THAT ISRAELI OFFICIALS INCLUDING THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE BELIEVE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT, THE ICC, MAY ISSUE ARREST WARRANTS FOR THE PRIME MINISTER, FOR THE DEFENSE MINISTER, AND THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENSE STAFF.

ALSO, THEY BELIEVE THEY MAY BE CONSIDERING WARRANTS FOR HAMAS LEADERS.

YOU'VE SAID THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE IS VERY CONCERNED.

CAN YOU GIVE US SOME MORE DETAILS?

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE HEARING?

WHERE ARE YOU HEARING THIS FROM?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ANY TIME SOON?

>> I DON'T THINK CONCERNED IS THE WORD.

HORRIFIED IS A WORD THAT BETTER DESCRIBES WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE HIGH PLACES IN ISRAEL THESE DAYS.

YES, THEY DO THINK THERE IS A GOOD DEAL THAT AN ARREST WARRANT WILL BE ISSUED BY THE ICC.

THE LATEST NEWS IS THAT THEY FEAR THAT THOSE WILL BE DISCREET ONES.

THAT IS TO SAY THAT ONCE NETANYAHU, LET'S SAY, MAKE A STATE VISIT TO LONDON OR TO BRUSSELS, HE'LL GET ARRESTED THERE.

BY THE WAY, IT ALMOST HAPPENED TO THE THEN FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER SOME 15 YEARS AGO FOLLOWING THE LIBERATION IN GAZA, SO, IT'S NOT SOMETHING NEW, BUT IT'S VERY, VERY DRAMATIC.

IT ACTUALLY PUTS ISRAELIS IN A VERY PROBLEMATIC SITUATION.

IT'S AN EARTHQUAKE IN AN UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL, AND TO BE HONEST, I CAN CONFIRM THAT THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED, BUT I CANNOT CONFIRM IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> ALL RIGHT, WE WILL KEEP WATCHING.

AMIT SEGAL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT SPARKED BY THIS WAR IS A GROWING PROTEST AND PEACE MOVEMENT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

THOUGH MOSTLY NONVIOLENT, SEVERAL SCHOOLS HAVE CALLED IN LOCAL POLICE AND NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS.

TODAY IN PARIS, FRENCH POLICE ENTERED THE SORBONNE UNIVERSITY CAMPUS TO REMOVE STUDENTS OCCUPYING THE MAIN SQUARE.

NOW, THE EPICENTER OF ALL OF THIS IS COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, WHERE TODAY, WITH NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN STUDENTS AND THE ADMINISTRATION AT AN IMPASSE, THE UNIVERSITY CALLED ON PROTESTERS TO CLEAR THEIR ENCAMPMENT OR FACE SUSPENSION.

SOME OF THE MOST VALUABLE REPORTING ON ALL OF THIS COMES FROM INSIDE THE STUDENT NEWSPAPER, "THE COLUMBIA DAILY SPECTATOR," EDITOR IN CHIEF ISABELLA RAMIREZ JOINS US FROM NEW YORK.

ISABELLA RAMIREZ, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AND, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MUCH WE'VE READ ABOUT WHAT AN EXCELLENT JOB YOU ARE DOING, AND YOUR, YOU KNOW, STUDENT NEWSPAPER, YOUR ON-CAMPUS JOURNALISTS.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US RIGHT NOW IS THE LATEST AS WE SIT HERE TALKING?

>> TODAY IS GOING TO BE A VERY SIGNIFICANT DAY IN TERMS OF OUR DEVELOPMENTS.

THIS MORNING, OUR PRESIDENT SENT OUT AN EMAIL EFFECTIVELY SAYING THAT NEGOTIATIONS FAILED TO REACH AN AGREEMENT.

AND IT, FOR THE FIRST TIME, OUTLINED VERY EXPLICITLY THAT COLUMBIA WILL NOT DIVEST FROM ISRAEL, WHICH IS THE CENTRAL DEMAND OF THE PROTESTERS, AS WELL AS IN THAT EMAIL, IT LAID OUT WHAT THE UNIVERSITY ACTUALLY BROUGHT TO THE TABLE, TO THOSE STUDENT NEGOTIATORS, AND INCLUDED A SERIES OF INTERESTING THINGS, INCLUDING OFFERING A LIST OF FINANCIAL TRANSPARENCY OF DIRECT HOLDINGS OF THE UNIVERSITY THAT WOULD BE ACCESSIBLE TO STUDENTS AND UPDATING THAT LIST.

IT OFFERED TO POTENTIALLY INVEST IN HEALTH AND EDUCATION IN GAZA, AS WELL AS CREATE AN EXPEDITED PROCESS FOR DIVESTMENT PROPOSALS, AND THOSE WERE ALL THINGS THAT THE STUDENTS WOULD HAVE REJECTED, BECAUSE IT DID NOT FULFILL WHAT THEIR CENTRAL DEMANDS WOULD BE.

AND ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS, THAT EMAIL DID NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING ABOUT AMNESTY FOR THE STUDENTS, WHICH HAS BEEN A VERY BIG THING FOR THE ARRESTED AND SUSPENDED STUDENTS, AND SO, NOW, THE UNIVERSITY HAS BEEN HANDING OUT NOTICES TO THOSE STUDENTS AT THE ENCAMPMENT AT THIS MOMENT, WARNING OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION AND THEY HAVE UNTIL 2:00 P.M. TODAY TO POTENTIALLY CLEAR OUT, IF NOT TO FACE, AGAIN, DISCIPLINARY ACTION, AND AT THE SAME TIME THIS IS HAPPENING, WE'RE HEARING WORD FROM THE ENCAMPMENT, THEY MADE AN ANNOUNCEMENT, ESSENTIALLY, SAYING THAT THEY HAVE VOTED TO STAY, SO, THE STUDENTS CURRENTLY HAVE VOTED TO STAY, PAST 2:00 P.M., AND FACE THOSE SUSPENSIONS, AND JUST TO ADD ONE MORE THING, THE SUSPENSIONS ARE ACTUALLY EVEN MORE SEVERE THAN PREVIOUS.

THE PREVIOUS SUSPENDED STUDENTS WHO WERE SUSPENDED SIMULTANEOUS TO THE FIRST WAVE OF ARRESTS THAT HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, ON APRIL 18th, THOSE STUDENTS WERE ALLOWED TO STAY ON CAMPUS AT LEAST IN THE RESIDENTIAL SPACES.

THIS SUSPENSION SAYS THEY WOULD HAVE NO ACCESS TO ANY CAMPUS BUILDINGS INCLUDING RESIDENCES, DORMS, DINING, ET CETERA, I.D.s COMPLETELY DEACTIVATED, WHICH WOULD EFFECTIVELY EVICT A LOT OF THOSE STUDENTS, OR AT LEAST LEAVE THEM WITHOUT ACCESS TO THE RESIDENCE HALLS AND OTHER IMPORTANT BUILDINGS.

SO, THE CONSEQUENCES ARE MUCH MORE SEVERE.

>> SO, IT SEEMS THAT IT'S A REAL STANDOFF, THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE, YOU KNOW, LITTLE PEACE BUILDING OR BRIDGE BUILDING BETWEEN EITHER SIDE, AND BOTH SIDES, ADMINISTRATION AND STUDENTS, ARE REALLY HOLDING THE TOUGHEST POSITIONS RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU SEE ANY WAY FORWARD, BUT WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WATCHING THIS, YOU'RE TALKING TO PEOPLE ON CAMPUS, YOU ALSO SEE THE RUCKUS THAT'S BEING CREATED OUTSIDE THE CAMPUS.

CAN YOU TELL US, WHAT IS THE REAL PICTURE?

WHAT -- IS IT DANGEROUS, VIOLENT ON CAMPUS, IS THAT OFF CAMPUS?

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AS JOURNALISTS FROM INSIDE?

>> SO, AT THE VERY BEGINNING STAGES, THERE WERE -- THERE WAS A LOT OF ACTIVITY IN TERMS OF PROTEST ACTIVITY, BOTH OUTSIDE OF THE CAMPUS, ON CAMPUS.

TO BE FRANK, THAT OFF CAMPUS ACTIVITY HAS CALMED DOWN.

THAT IS WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SORT OF CITING A LOT MORE TENSION IN TERP STERMS OF WHEN TO CERTAIN CHANTS OR INCIDENTS THAT WERE ARISING FROM THOSE OUTSIDE PROTESTS, BUT PREDOMINANTLY FOR RIGHT NOW, THE ENCAMPMENT HAS SORT OF REMAINS THE SAME AND THERE HAVE BEEN VERY FEW UPDATES SORT OF ON THE DAY-TO-DAY.

THAT'S WHY TODAY IS QUITE A BIG DAY, BUT I WAS JUST AT THE ENCAMPMENT PRETTY RECENTLY DISTRIBUTING OUR NEWSPAPER, AND REALLY WHEN YOU WALK ON AND YOU SEE IT, IT'S STUDENTS SORT OF LAYING ON THE LAWN, YOU KNOW, CHATTING, READING BOOKS, GETTING WATER, GETTING FOOD, IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING ENVIRONMENT, BECAUSE WE ARE -- ARE CERTAIN THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDENTS WHO HAVE REPORTED FEELING UNCOMFORTABLE, HAVE REPORTED FEELING UNSAFE BY THE PRESENCE OF THE ENCAMPMENT, BUT WHEN YOU WALK ONTO IT, THERE ISN'T, LIKE, ACTIVE PROTESTS NECESSARILY OCCURRING ON THE ENCAMPMENT ITSELF, IT EAST MOSTLY JUST THE STATE OF OCCUPYING THAT SPACE AND KIND OF BEING ON THAT SPACE, AND THERE BEING KIND OF A SERIES OF OTHER ACTIVITIES, OFTEN, BUT VERY LITTLE IN TERMS OF TANGIBLE PROTEST.

THERE IS GOING TO BE PROBABLY MORE ESCALATION, WE CAN ANTICIPATE, AS A RESULT OF THE UNIVERSITY'S CRACKDOWN, AND THAT'S SORT OF WHY WE SAW IN THE FIRST PLACE SOME OF THOSE OUTSIDE PROTESTS COME IN, AND ALSO SOME OF THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES START TO GALVANIZE IN TERMS OF UPPING THEIR PROTEST ACTIVITY, WAS BECAUSE, OR IN RESPONSE TO, THE ARRESTS AND ALSO, UNIVERSITY CRACKDOWN.

BUT FOR THESE PAST FEW DAYS, WHERE EVERYTHING HAS BEEN AT SORT OF, THE NEGOTIATIONS HAVE STALLED, IT HAS BEEN PRETTY, YOU KNOW, REGULAR, IN TERMS OF JUST THE STUDENTS LAYING ON THE LAWNS AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF DOING THEIR DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITY AND PROGRAMMING, SOMETIMES EVEN TUNING INTO CLASS FROM THE LAWN.

>> ISABELLA, DID YOU SEE, OR WERE YOU ABLE TO HEAR, THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, STUDENT ON STUDENT VERBAL HARASSMENT THAT HAS BEEN CITED AS VERY DAMAGING AND UNCOMFORTABLE AND FRIGHTENING BY SOME OF THE JEWISH STUDENTS?

>> YEAH, WE HAVE COMPILED PRETTY EXTENSIVE REPORTS REGARDING THIS.

MOST PARTICULARLY WHEN, IN THE AFTERMATH OF ONE OF OUR CAMPUS RABBIS TELLING JEWISH STUDENTS TO NOT -- TO LEAVE CAMPUS, TO NOT STAY, BECAUSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

WE, IN THAT REPORT, WERE ABLE TO COMPILE A SERIES OF INCIDENTS THAT HAD HAPPENED, I BELIEVE, ON THE SATURDAY FOLLOWING THE ARRESTS.

MUCH WERE RELATED TO OFF-CAMPUS PROTESTS.

SOME WERE ON CAMPUS.

THAT INVOLVED CERTAIN RHETORIC, SOME OF WHICH WAS E VOKIVE OF THE HOLOCAUST, TELLING STUDENTS TO GO BACK TO POLAND, GO BACK TO EUROPE, AND THERE WERE OTHER PARTICULARLY VIOLENT SIGNAGE THAT WAS USED TO REFER TO ACTUALLY HAMAS, AND THAT WAS ONE SINGULAR PROTEST THAT -- PROTESTER THAT WAS HOLDING THAT SIGN AND REFERRING TO THE PRO-ISRAEL PROTESTERS BEHIND THEM.

AND SO, WE HAVE SEEN THOSE INCIDENTS, AND FOR SURE IT HAS COME UP QUITE A LOT IN THE DIALOGUE, WHEN IT COMES TO THE COMMUNICATION TO THE COMMUNITY, AND ALL COMMUNICATION WE'VE BEEN RECEIVING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN VERY STRONGLY CONDEMNING THE PARTICULAR INCIDENTS THAT HAVE ARISEN FROM THIS.

NOW, IS THAT TO SAY THAT THAT REPRESENTS THE ENTIRETY OF THE PROTESTERS AT THE ENCAMPMENT OR ALL OF THE SORT OF DIFFERENT MOVING PIECES, I THINK THAT IS, OF COURSE, PROBABLY TOO WIDE-SWEEPING, BUT THERE HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN THESE INCIDENTS THAT SHOULD DRAW CONCERN FOR OUR COMMUNITY.

>> SO, LET'S GO BACK -- THERE'S SO MUCH POLITICS, YOU JUST MENTIONED THE PRESIDENT, WHO IS NEW, LET'S FACE IT, SHE STARTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS ACADEMIC YEAR.

AND HAS BEEN HAULED, LIKE THE OTHERS, IN FRONT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE IN CONGRESS.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT HAPPENED ON APRIL 17th, AS YOU GUYS WERE -- WELL, NOT YOU, BUT THE CAMPUS PROTESTERS WERE BUILDING THE ENCAMPMENT, THIS IS AN EXCHANGE BETWEEN HER AND LISA McCLAIN.

>> ARE MOBS SHOUTING ANTI-SEMITIC COMMENTS?

>> WHEN I HEAR THOSE TERMS, I FIND THEM VERY UPSETTING -- >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION I DIDN'T ASK.

DOES THAT FALL UNDER DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITIC BEHAVIOR, YES OR NO?

WHY IS THAT SO TOUGH?

>> BECAUSE IT'S -- IT'S A DIFFICULT ISSUE.

>> MAYBE I SHOULD ASK YOUR TASK FORCE.

DOES THAT QUALIFY AS ANTI-SEMITIC BEHAVIOR, THOSE STATEMENTS, YES OR NO?

YES, OKAY.

DO YOU AGREE WITH YOUR TASK FORCE?

>> WE AGREE.

THE QUESTION IS -- >> YEAH -- YES, SO YOU DO -- >> I'M JUST FASCINATED TO KNOW HOW YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT THE VERY TARGETED POLITICAL SITUATION THAT'S LAYERED UPON ALL OF THIS, BECAUSE AFTER THAT, SHE DID, AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING, CALL IN THE NYPD TO BREAK UP THE PROTESTS.

NOW, IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE CHIEF OF THE NYPD PATROL ON THE ARREST SAID THE STUDENTS WHO WERE ARRESTED WERE PEACEFUL, OFFERED NO RESISTANCE WHATSOEVER, AND WERE SAYING WHAT THEY WANTED TO SAY IN A PEACEFUL MANNER.

AND YOUR NEWSPAPER WROTE IN AN EDITORIAL, HISTORY HAS MADE CLEAR WHO STOOD ON THE WRONG SIDE THEN.

AND IT'S CLEAR THAT THIS IS THE SIDE YOU ARE ALIGNING YOURSELF WITH NOW.

THIS WILL BE YOUR LEGACY.

WERE YOU ADDRESSING THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION?

>> YEAH, SO, ACTUALLY, OUR EDITORIAL BOARD, I DO NOT SERVE ON, BUT IT REPRESENTS A SECTOR OF OUR OPINION TEAM, WHO IS VERY TALENTED AND HAS BEEN WORKING VERY HARD ON, YOU KNOW, KIND OF REFLECTING DISCOURSE IN A DIFFERENT WAY, BECAUSE I OVERSEE BOTH THE OPINION AND THE NEWSROOM, BUT THAT WAS -- THAT PIECE IN PARTICULAR WAS ADDRESSING HER.

IT WAS ATTEMPTING TO SAY, TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR LEGACY LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW TO THE STUDENTS, THE PUBLIC, THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND A LOT OF IT IS INSPIRED AS WELL BY WHAT WE KNOW FROM PREVIOUS PROTESTS IN COLUMBIA, 1968, VIETNAM, ANTI-WAR, THESE ARE ALL HUGE MOMENTS IN COLUMBIA'S HISTORY, WHERE THOSE PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN LOOKED UPON FOR THE DECISIONS THEY MADE AT THAT TIME, AND NOW, WHEN WE REFLECT ON IT NOW, THERE IS, OF COURSE, A LOT OF DISDAIN AND CRITICISM FOR THOSE DECISIONS, SO, I BELIEVE WHAT THE BOARD WAS TRYING TO GET AT HERE IS, YOU KNOW, REALLY WARNING THE PRESIDENT AS TO WHAT YOUR LEGACY WILL ENTAIL IF IT MEANS, YOU KNOW, THE FORCEFUL REMOAL OF STUDENTS FROM CAMPUS, AND THIS CRACKDOWN ON STUDENT PROTESTS.

NOW, OF COURSE, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERING OPINIONS HERE, BUT THAT WAS THE OPINION REFLECTED BY OUR BOARD IN TERMS OF WHAT THE MAJORITY VOTED FOR.

>> AS WE CONTINUE TO CHAT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN ON OTHER UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING EMORY, IT CAUSED A HUGE RUCKUS, WHEN A TEACHER, A PROPROFESSOR, WAS ESSENTIALLY MANHANDLED.

OTHER TEACHERS TRIED TO HELP, I THINK IT WAS THE POLICE AND THE STATE GUARD, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL THEM, IT WAS A VERY ROUGH SITUATION OVER THE WEEKEND, IN ATLANTA.

BUT I GUESS WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE COLUMBIA IS KNOWN AROUND THE WORLD FOR, YOU KNOW, ITS HISTORY OF STUDENT PROTEST, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT'S VERY ENVIABLE AND DISTINGUISHED MIDDLE EAST PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT MIDDLE EAST STUDIES ON ARAB AND PALESTINIAN STUDIES, YOU HAVE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT JEWISH STUDIES PROGRAM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED?

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE TALK TO EACH OTHER?

>> I THINK PART OF IT IS, THERE IS, ENCIRCLING ALL OF THIS, ENCIRCLING THE PROTEST ACTIVITY, THERE'S A CONVERSATION ABOUT ACADEMIC FREEDOM ABOUT COLUMBIA, AND SORT OF, WHAT ARE THE LIMITS OF THAT, AS WELL AS, HAS THE UNIVERSITY DONE ENOUGH TO PROTECT THOSE -- THE ACADEMIC FREEDOM OF THE PROFESSORS ON OUR CAMPUS?

AND WE SAW THAT IN THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING.

CONGRESS WENT VERY, VERY HARD ON COLUMBIA FOR NAMING MULTIPLE FACULTY MEMBERS, BY NAME, MOST OF WHOM CAME FROM THAT DEPARTMENT, REGARDING STATEMENTS THAT THEY HAD MADE, SCHOLARSHIP AND OTHER THINGS THAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT IN THEIR CLASSROOMS, AS, OF COURSE, LABELING THEM ANTI-SEMITIC AND UNSAFE, SO, THERE HAS BEEN THIS REALLY BIG QUESTION AS TO WHETHER THE UNIVERSITY HAS DONE ENOUGH TO KIND OF PROTECT ACADEMIC FREEDOM IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO ALLOW THAT DISCOURSE TO EVEN HAPPEN.

AND SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF -- OUR TRADITION HERE AT COLUMBIA OF BOTH OUR MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES DEPARTMENT, BUT ALSO OUR IMMENSE CONNECTIONS TO -- WE HAVE THE JEWISH THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, WE HAVE A CONTROVERSIAL, BUT WE HAVE A RELATIONSHIP THROUGH A PROGRAM WITH TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY.

WE HAVE THESE VERY DEEP-SEEDED TIES TO THIS ISSUE IN PARTICULAR, EDWARD SAED, MANY SCHOLARS CONSIDERED FOUNDATIONAL IN THESE ISSUES, AND SO, A BIG QUESTION HAS BEEN, WHAT IS ACADEMIC FREEDOM, WHAT IS THE UNIVERSITY'S ROLE IN PROTECTING COLUMBIA, IN THIS TIME FRAME, UNDER POLITICAL PRESSURES, UNDER STUDENT PRESSURES, HAS IT DONE ENOUGH TO PROTECT THAT AND ALLOW THAT DISCOURSE TO OCCUR ON ITS CAMPUS?

>> AND BRIEFLY, WE GOT JUST A LITTLE BIT LEFT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE FACULTY AND SOME OF THE STUDENTS HAVE CRITICIZED THE WAY WE, THE PRESS, HAVE COVERED THESE -- THESE PROTESTS, SOME CALL IT A PEACE MOVEMENT.

IT'S NOT EVEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE VIOLENT, IT'S MEANT TO BE NONVIOLENT, AND OBVIOUSLY SOCIAL MEDIA IS BLOWING IT OUT OF PROPORTION.

YOU'RE WATCHING IT FROM THE INSIDE.

DO YOU HAVE A COMMENT ON THE WAY THE NATIONAL PRESS HAS BEEN COVERING IT?

>> WELL, I DEFINITELY THINK THAT AS A STUDENT NEWSPAPER, WE SEE EVERYTHING IN A WAY THAT I BELIEVE WOULD BE INCREDIBLY CHALLENGING AS NATIONAL MEDIA TO CAPTURE.

AND IT'S SOMETHING WE'VE PRIDED OURSELVES IN, BUT PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE WE CAN BE THERE, FIRST OF ALL, ALL DAY.

COLUMBIA HAS LIMITED PRESS ACCESS.

WE'RE THERE ALL DAY, WE LIVE ON CAMPUS, WE SLEEP ON CAMPUS, WE EAT ON CAMPUS.

THAT IS OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR LIVELIHOODS AND OUR PEERS.

SO, I THINK WE COME INTO EVERYTHING WITH THAT ANGLE.

AND LIKE I SAID, I PERSONALLY, I HAVE BEEN ON THE ENCAMPMENT, MANY OF MY REPORTERS WHO HAVE A SERIES OF DIFFERENT IDENTITIES, SOME JEWISH, SOME NOT, WHO HAVE ALSO STEPPED INTO THE ENCAMPMENT WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES IN TERMS OF THAT REPORTING, BEEN INSIDE PROTESTS OUTSIDE OF OUR GATES, AND, OF COURSE, WE'VE PRACTICED A LOT OF MEASURED TO STAY SAFE AS REPORTERS, BUT I DO THINK WE HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT ANGLE HERE.

>> YOU DO.

YEAH, SORRY, I GET IT, AND IT'S REALLY IMPRESSIVE AND YOU ARE DOING A HECK OF A JOB, AND WE WILL KEEP CHECKING IN WITH YOU.

AND A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS ALSO TAKING PART IN THESE PROTESTS.

ISABELLA RAMIREZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NEXT, A DIFFERENT CALL FOR ACTION, THIS ONE IN THE FASHION WORLD.

CAMERON RUSSELL WAS FIRST SCOUTED AGE 16.

SINCE THEN, SHE'S NODDLED FOR CALVIN KLEIN AND RALPH LAUREN, AND APPEARED IN VOGUE AND ELLE.

SHE HAS LONG CALLED OUT HARD TRUTHS IN HER INDUSTRY.

A TED TALK SHE GAVE IN 2012 IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST VIEWED.

HER NEW MEMOIR, "HOW TO MAKE HERSELF AGREEABLE TO EVERYONE" EXPLOING FEELING BOTH OBJECT IF IS AND COMPLICIT IN THE SYSTEM THAT MADE HER CAREER.

MICHEL MARTIN HAS MORE.

>> CAMERON RUSSELL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE, IF THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR NAME, PROBABLY KNOW YOUR FACE.

YOU'VE BEEN WORKING AS A MODEL FOR MANY YEARS NOW.

THIS BOOK IS REALLY SHOCKING.

LET'S JUST SAY IT, IT'S SHOCKING TO ME, AS A PERSON, WHO IS AN OUTSIDE TO THE INDUSTRY.

WHAT MADE YOU WRITE IT?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAD A WORD IN MY HEAD, AND IT JUST GOT STUCK IN MY HEAD AND I WANTED TO INVESTIGATE IT.

THE WORD WAS TOLERATE.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT I HAD CONSENTED TO, HAD TOLERATED, AND THAT WORD, THE SORT OF RELATIONALNESS OF IT, LIKE, WHY WE DO THINGS AND WANTING TO BE AGREEABLE, JUST STUCK WITH ME AS SUCH A COMPLICATED IDEA, BECAUSE IT HAS BENEFITS AND IT HAS DRAWBACKS, IT MAKES US SPEECHLESS AND POWERFUL, AND SO, I JUST SORT OF STARTED THINKING ABOUT THAT WORD, AND WANTED TO WRITE SOMETHING THAT COULDN'T BE SAID IN AN INSTAGRAM FRAME OR IN FIVE MINUTES.

AND I THINK FINDING THE WAY TO TELL THIS STORY, WHICH IS COMPLEX, REALLY CAME FROM STARTING TO READ OTHER MODEL MEMOIRS, ACTUALLY.

AND READING, FOR EXAMPLE, IMAN'S WORDS, WHERE SHE TALKS ABOUT FEELING BOTH OBJECT IF IED AND HARMED AND ALSO COMPLICIT.

AND BEING ABLE TO SAY, IT'S OKAY TO SIT WITH THAT DUALITY.

THAT WAS SORT OF A LIBERATING IDEA FOR ME, AS I STARTED TO WRITE.

>> TALK A LITTLE BIT, IF YOU WOULD, ABOUT HOW THE BOUNDARY CROSSING STARTS.

>> I THINK ABOUT WHAT I WAS ABLE TO TOLERATE AND WHY, AND I THINK OF MY MOM, WHO RAISED ME TO BE SO TOUGH AND SO RESILIENT, AND IN FACT, EQUIPPED ME VERY WELL TO SWIM IN WATER THAT WAS PATRIARCHAL.

AND THAT SAME TOUGHNESS IN A WAY ALLOWED ME TO PERSIST.

AND A LOT OF THOSE EARLY STORIES, I THINK, WILL FEEL FAMILIAR TO MANY YOUNG WOMEN, YOU KNOW, THINKING THAT I HAD DONE A DOUBLE KISS WRONG, WHEN SOMEONE KISSED ME ON THE LIPS, OR, YOU KNOW, HAVING SOMEONE WATCH ME CHANGE AND THEN BEING TOLD BY MY AGENT, YOU HAVE TO GO SHOOT WITH THEM AFTERHOURS, AND THEY'RE PULLING THE STRAPLESS BRA DOWN TO GET THE SHOT THEY WANT AND I LOOK DOWN AND IT'S COME OFF.

AND IN THAT MOMENT, JUST FEELING LIKE, I'M TOO TOUGH TO BE DISTURBED BY THIS, I CAN KEEP GOING.

YOU DON'T INTIMIDATE ME.

AND THAT ALLOWED ME TO KEEP GOING.

>> DO YOU HAVE THE BOOK THERE?

DO YOU WANT TO JUST READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, THE CHAPTER TITLE IS, "SHE'LL DO ANYTHING."

>> OKAY.

ON MY FIRST SHOOT, THE STYLIST SAYS TO HIS ASSISTANT, LET'S GO TO THE S&M VIBE.

I SAY NO, AND HE THINKS I'M UNGRATEFUL.

BY WAY OF EXPLANATION, I SAY, I WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, I HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE KIND OF PICTURES I TAKE.

HE LOOKS ME IN THE EYE AND I LOOK BACK.

NORMALLY, ADULTS ARE PLEASED OR AMUSED WHEN I TELL THEM THIS, BUT HE ROLLS HIS EYES AND TAKES OFF THE BELT.

HE GIVES ME A TINY BLACK BIKINI.

GO, HE SAYS, AND TURNS HIS BACK.

I'VE NEVER WORN A BIKINI BEFORE.

I DIDN'T KNOW I WOULD BE WEARING ONE BUT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PUBIC HAIR YET TO SHAVE.

HOW DO I STAND WHEN MY STOMACH IS SHOWING?

THE PHOTOGRAPHER KEEPS TELLING ME TO RELAX.

HE HAS A FART MACHINE PRANK HE PLAYS.

WHEN THE PHOTO COMES OUT, MY AGENT SENDS IT TO CLIENTS.

I CARRY IT AROUND TO CASTINGS TO GIVE OUT.

YOUR BODY LOOKS AMAZING, SHE SAYS.

>> SO, YOU'RE WHAT, 15?

>> I WAS 16.

>> AND THEN IT GOES ON, THE STYLIST WON'T WORK WITH ME AGAIN FOR ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS, WHEN HE FINALLY BOOKS ME AGAIN, HE JOKES, YOU WERE SUCH A SPOILED BRAT.

ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IS, WHEN YOU REFUSED, THERE WERE SEVERAL SITUATIONS THAT YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK THAT YOU SAID, I'M NOT DOING THAT, AND YOU SEE FIVE OTHER GIRLS LINED UP WAITING TO TAKE YOUR SPOT, THE MESSAGE IS SENT.

BUT WOULD YOU MIND, AND I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE IF IT OFFENDS, THAT -- WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE PUT UP WITH IT?

WHY DID YOU PUT UP WITH IT?

>> YEAH, I DON'T -- I ACTUALLY DON'T FIND THAT QUESTION OFFENSIVE.

I FIND IT AT THE HEART OF THE BOOK, IN SOME WAYS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK ABOUT ALL THOSE FAMILIAR DIRECTIVES THAT WE LOB AT GIRLS, LIKE, STOP BEING SO EMOTIONAL, YOU'RE OVERREACTING, CHILL OUT, AND WANTING ALWAYS TO BE ABLE TO TOUGH IT OUT.

TO PLAY, YOU KNOW, FIRST TO PLAY WITH THE BIG KIDS, TO PLAY WITH THE BOYS, AND TO BE A KID IN A GROWNUP WORLD, BE SUCCESSFUL, BE POWERFUL, HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE, AND THAT -- THAT FELT LIKE AND IN SOME WAYS I THINK IS WHAT IS REQUIRED, ACTUALLY.

AS I'M WRITING THE BOOK, I'M CONTINUING TO WORK, AND I'M IN MY 30s, I HAVE CHILDREN, I HAVE A HEAD FILLED WITH BOOKS, AND YET, I FIND MYSELF ON-SET WITH SOMEONE WHO IS TELLING ME THAT THEY ARE DIVORCED, THAT THEY NEED ME TO SHOOT NAKED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S IN MY CONTRACT THAT I DON'T, AND I AM BENDING TO THEM.

AND I PUT THAT IN THERE, REALLY, TO SAY, IT'S SO HARD TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS, AS MUCH INFORMATION AS WE KNOW, THAT IS STILL HOW SO MUCH OF THE WORLD IS WORKING, YOU KNOW?

IF THAT IS HOW TO ACCESS WEALTH, IF THAT IS HOW TO ACCESS VISIBILITY, AND THE WAYS TO MOVE BEYOND IT THAT I SEE ARE TO SAY, I DON'T THINK THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING TO BUILD LIBERATION, AND THEN ALSO, IT'S NOT JUST ON ME.

I HAVE TO BUILD AS A COLLECTIVE.

THERE'S NOT, LIKE, A SOLUTION THAT I PROPOSE THAT THAT FIXES IT.

>> WOULD MORE WOMEN HELP?

WOULD IT HELP TO HAVE MORE WOMEN PHOTOGRAPHERS, STYLISTS, FASHION EDDER TOS?

>> YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT -- MAYBE.

I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE EQUITY BEHIND THE CAMERA AND IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA, THAT'S GREAT.

BUT THERE'S SOMETHING EVEN MORE INSIDIOUS HAPPENING, RIGHT?

WHICH IS THAT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, THE INDUSTRY RELIES ON THE EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN'S LABOR.

TREATING WOMEN'S LABOR AS UNSKILLED.

YOU KNOW, POST-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, IT STILL REQUIRES SKILLED HANDS TO SEW CLOTHING.

SO, THIS MASSIVE LABOR FORCE THAT WE TREAT AS UNSKILLED, WHO IS VERY SKILLED, WHO IS MOSTLY WOMEN, WHO ORGANIZE BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS, 50,000 WOMEN GO ON STRIKE IN BANGLADESH AND NOT ONE FASHION MEDIA OUTLET PICKS IT UP.

AND IT'S NOT FOR LACK OF A WOMAN EDITOR IN CHIEF.

IT'S SOMETHING ELS ABOUT THE STRUCTURE OF THE INDUSTRY.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK WE NEED, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE WOMEN'S FACES IN HIGH PLACES ALWAYS, IT'S SOMETHING DEEPER.

AND MORE STRUCTURAL THAT I THINK HAS TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR, BUT I AM STILL SORT OF STUCK ON THIS -- THIS, LIKE, WHY DO SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE BEHAVE SO BADLY?

WHY DO SO MANY OF THESE MEN BEHAVE SO BADLY?

WHY DO THESE 30, 40, 50-YEAR-OLD MEN WANT TO SLEEP WITH 15-YEAR-OLD GIRLS?

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY CAN DO THAT?

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT THAT?

>> PATRIARCHY, I GUESS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE FASHION INDUSTRY IS NOT UNIQUELY SEXIST OR RACIST OR EXPLOITIVE.

I THINK IT CAN BE, AS MANY, MANY INDUSTRIES CAN BE.

I THINK WHAT FEELS UNIQUE IN A WAY TO FASHION IS THAT FASHION SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE OF BEAUTY, OF GRACE, OF, YOU KNOW, SORT OF JOY AND EXUBERANCE AND EXPRESSION AND -- YET THAT EXPECTATION TO ARRIVE AND SPEAK IN THAT LANGUAGE BEGAN TO FEEL FOR ME SO AT ODDS WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN MY HEART AND MY MIND.

AND IT'S INTERESTING TO PUBLISH THIS BOOK IN THIS MOMENT, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF US ARE GOING THROUGH.

WHEN WE COME TO WORK, WHEN WE INTERACT WITH INSTITUTIONS, WHEN WE GO TO THE POLLS AND WE THINK OUR GOVERNMENTS, OUR BUSINESSES, OUR SCHOOLS, ARE NOT PROTECTING US.

RIGHT?

ARE ACTUALLY NOT PUTTING PEOPLE FIRST.

AND SO, THERE IS THAT KIND OF PROFOUND STRUGGLE TO ARRIVE IN A WAY THAT IS AGREEABLE, YOU KNOW, THAT IS AGREEABLE TO OUR BOSS, THAT ALLOWS US TO EVEN ARRIVE AT A DINNER TABLE AGREEABLE, AND WHAT IS HAPPENING FOR US ON THE INSIDE.

AND I TRIED IN THIS BOOK, I THINK, TO JUST STOP PERFORMING SO MUCH, AND TRY TO FIND LANGUAGE FOR ALL THOSE COMPLICATED THINGS THAT I WAS FEELING, NOT JUST WHAT WAS EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW?

THAT YOU FOUND YOUR WORDS?

>> I FEEL LIKE I GREW UP IN WRITING IT.

I GOT TO THE END, AND I WAS THINKING, WHERE DO I LAND WITH THIS?

AND THIS QUOTE FROM MYRIAM CABA KEPT PLAYING IN MY MIND WHERE SHE SAYS, IN REGARDS TO ABOLITION POLITICS, WE COULD STOP ASKING, HOW DO WE FIX WHAT IS, AND WE COULD START IMAGINING WHAT WE WANT IN THE WORLD.

AND SO, THAT UNDERSTANDING OF, WHERE DO WE GIVE OUR ATTENTION, HOW DO WE DREAM WHAT'S NEXT, THAT FELT LIKE AN OPEN INVITATION FOR A NEXT PHASE FOR ME.

>> WHAT ARE YOU IMAGINING, IF I MAY ASK?

IF IT'S NOT TOO PERSONAL OR NOT YET FULLY FORMED, WHAT ARE YOU IMAGINING?

>> WELL, I CAN ANSWER, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FASHION, I'LL GIVE AN ANSWER AROUND THE FASHION INDUSTRY.

YOU KNOW, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE BOOK, I THINK THERE'S THIS IDEA THAT YOU PULL BACK THE CURTAIN AND WHAT YOU SEE IN FASHION IS EXTRACKIVE BUSINESS, IT'S GIRLS WHO COME OF AGE WHEN THEY'RE ASSAULTED, IS, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO CAN ARGUE THEY'RE EMPOWERED BY OBJECT IF I CASE, AND THAT'S SORT OF AN AGREED UPON STORY, IN A WAY, BUT THERE'S NO WAY TO MAKE MEANING IN THAT STORY.

THERE'S NO WAY TO REPAIR THAT STORY.

SO, IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE BOOK, WHAT I TRIED TO DO WAS THINK ABOUT, WHAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO TELL A STORY ABOUT THE FASHION INDUSTRY THAT ISN'T THAT?

THAT ISN'T INDUSTRY.

THAT ACTUALLY IS PEOPLE.

AND THE STORY THAT I COULD TELL, AND THEN HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHERE TO GO, WAS, YOU KNOW, FOR THE PAST COUPLE CENTURIES, ALTHOUGH THE FASHION INDUSTRY HAS BEEN SO EXTRACKIVE, WE'VE SEEN THE FIRST LABOR UNION IN THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED BY TEENAGE GARMENT WORKERS.

WE SAW WORKER PROTECTIONS WE ENJOY TODAY COME OUT OF LABOR ORGANIZING BEFORE AND AFTER THE TRIANGLE SHIRT WAIST FIRE IN NEW YORK.

AND I THINK IN MANY WAYS, OUR MOST PRECIOUS DECK CATTIC FREEDOMS COME FROM PEOPLE ON COTTON PLANTATIONS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS.

PEOPLE WORKING IN THAT HAVE TRANSFORMED OUR WORLD.

AND SO, THAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO TELL THIS HISTORY, AND THAT'S WHY, I THINK, ORGANIZING, IS PART OF WHAT I CONTINUE TO DO.

>> SO, YOU WRITE ABOUT GARMENT WORKERS IN PLACES LIKE BANGLADESH, WHO PRODUCE THE CLOTHES FOR THE COMPANIES THAT YOU MODEL FOR, AND MAKE SOME OF THE LOWEST WAGES IN THE WORLD, AND YOU WERE AT A PHOTO SHOOT ON A FORMER PLANTATION, YOU SAY, I SIT ON THE PORCH, WAITING FOR THE TEAM TO SET UP.

HOW DIFFERENT IS WHAT WE'RE DOING, CELEBRATING THIS PLACE, CELEBRATING MY WHITE FACE OVER AND OVER WHILE WOMEN OF COLOR MAKE, PACK, SHIP, AND SELL THE CLOTHES FOR NOTHING CLOSE TO A LIVEABLE WAGE.

COULD YOU JUST TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT SHOOT.

IT TOOK PLACE ON A FORMER PLANTATION AND THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, IN THE COURSE OF THAT SHOOT, THERE WERE OFF-HAND COMMENTS ABOUT THINGS THAT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE THERE.

AND I JUST FELT MY SKIN CRAWLING, REALLY, THROUGHOUT THAT SHOOT, TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED THERE AND TO CELEBRATE THAT PLACE.

AND, OF COURSE, ALSO, YOU KNOW, THAT STORY IS ALSO ABOUT HOW THE FASHION INDUSTRY CONTINUES TO RELY ON VERY EXTRACKIVE SYSTEMS TO MAKE PROFIT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- I HAVE A FOOTNOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DIVE DEEPER ABOUT, YOU KNOW, READING ABOUT RACIAL CAPITALISM, AND UNDERSTANDING ALL THE WAYS THAT OUR HISTORY HAS CREATED AN ECONOMIC MODEL THAT RELIES ON RACIAL AND GENDER OPPRESSION TO EXTRACT VALUE FROM PEOPLE.

AND CERTAINLY, THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE FASHION INDUSTRY AND BEYOND, AND IN THAT MOMENT, I FELT LIKE I WAS THE PRETTY FACE THAT WAS BEING PUT ON TO SELL THAT INHUMANITY.

>> IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS GOING TO ASK IS, DO YOU STILL LIKE IT?

DO YOU STILL LIKE FASHION?

>> YEAH, I THINK I HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING AND RELATIONSHIP NOW.

THAT I CAN SEPARATE OUT SOME OF THOSE INDUSTRY PARTS FROM THE OTHER PARTS THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO ME.

AND ALSO, TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHEN 20 CONGLOMERATES OWN 90% OF PROFITS, MOST PEOPLE IN FASHION ARE GOING TO BE IN THEIR EMPLOY, SO IT WILL REQUIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE INSIDE A BROKEN SYSTEM, WHO ALSO ARE VERY SKILLED AT SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE OF FASHION, WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS GOOD FOR, WHAT IT IS NEEDED FOR, TO SPEAK AND BE CRITICAL OF WHERE THEY SIT.

AND USE BOTH, YOU KNOW, OUR UNDERSTANDING OF OUR OWN COMPLICITY, OUR OWN SHAME, AND OUR OWN SKILLS, TO MOVE FORWARD, AND THAT'S A HARD SPOT, BUT HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, FOR EVERYBODY WHO READS THE BOOK, THERE'S SOME UNIVERSALITY TO THAT CONUNDRUM, WHERE WE ARE TODAY, AND HOW WE MOVE FORWARD.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S POSSIBLE?

I MEAN, YOU SEE IT IN DIFFERENT MOVEMENTS, THE REUSE MOVEMENT, PEOPLE TRYING TO MOVE AWAY FROM FAST FASHION, YOU SEE THE 15% PLEDGE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MOVEMENT TO INSIST THAT FASHION BRANDS ENGAGE MORE WITH HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE.

>> YES.

I THINK YOU'RE NAMING SO MANY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE MARGINS RIGHT NOW THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT THE MARGINS, BECAUSE IT IS WHERE ALL THE INNOVATION IS HAPPENING.

SO, EVERYONE IS WATCHING.

YOU KNOW, EVERYONE KNOWS THE 15% PLEDGE.

PEOPLE KNOW THE ORR FOUNDATION THAT'S FIGURING OUT, WHAT DO WE DO WITH ALL OF THIS TEXTILE WASTE ENDING UP IN GHANA?

THE FIBER SHED MOVEMENT THAT STARTED IN CALIFORNIA, NOW THERE'S HUNDREDS OF THEM TRYING TO DO SOIL TO SOIL TEXTILE WITHIN A 25-MILE RADIUS.

AND I THINK DURING THE PANDEMIC WHAT WAS SO STRIKING TO ME IS, WHILE WE SAW THIS EXPLOSION OF E-COMMERCE, AT THE SAME MOMENT, WE SAW AN EXPLOSION OF MENDING AND MAKING, OF GEN-Z BECOMING KNITTERS AND SHARING ON TIKTOK ALL THE WAYS THEY WERE CRAFTING.

AND SO, THERE WAS A DIVERGENCE, EVEN MORE STRIKING THAN BEFORE, OF WHAT PEOPLE NEED AND WANT, AND WHAT THE FASHION INDUSTRY IS TRYING TO PROVIDE AND SELL.

AND I THINK THAT IS REACHING A SORT OF LOGICAL CONCLUSION NOW, BECAUSE IT'S -- IF YOU HAVE A NEW COLLECTION EVERY SEVEN DAYS, IT'S TOO MUCH TRASH.

AND EVEN FOR THE HUMANS PRODUCING IT, THERE IS NO PLEASURE IN PRODUCING SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GO INTO THE GARBAGE.

AND SO, I -- I BELIEVE THIS HAS TO BE THE END OF THAT CYCLE OF DISPOSABILITY.

>> WELL, CAMERON RUSSELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO FRANCE, THE CENTER OF FASHION, AS IT GEARS UP FOR THIS YEAR'S SUMMER OLYMPICS.

THE COMPETITIONS WILL NO DOUBT MAKE PARIS EVEN MORE OF A COVETED DESTINATION FOR MILLIONS OF TOURISTS, BUT FOR YEARS, THE CITY HAS SEEN RENT SKYROCKET, PUSHING SO MANY PEOPLE AWAY.

CORRESPONDENT MELISSA BELL TAKES A LOOK AT HOW AUTHORITIES NOW ARE USING RENT CONTROL TO ENSURE THAT RESIDENTS CAN CONTINUE LIVING COMFORTABLY IN THEIR HOMETOWN.

>> Reporter: THE VIEW IS SECOND TO NONE.

THE LOCATION, AS CENTRAL AS THEY GET.

BUT THIS RENT-CONTROLLED APARTMENT IS NOW KATHERINE'S FOR JUST $800 A MONTH.

[ SPEAKING IN NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: AND THIS IS THE BUILDING SHE WAS ABLE TO MOVE INTO.

REOPENED AMID GREAT POMP IN 2021 AFTER SOME 16 YEARS OF RENOVATION, IT'S ONE OF THE FRENCH CAPITAL'S MOST ICONIC SPOTS FOR LUXURY SHOPPING AND DINING, NOT TO MENTION ITS FIVE-STAR HOTEL.

BUT IT WAS ALSO OBLIGED AS PART OF ITS RECONSTRUCTION TO INCLUDE 96 APARTMENTS FOR THE CITY OF PARIS TO LET AT MODEST RATES.

>> IF YOU LET THE MARKET ACT, YOU WILL HAVE ONLY EMPTY HOUSES, SECOND HOMES FOR RICH FRENCH PEOPLE.

IF YOU WANT PARIS TO STAY A LIVING CITY WITH PEOPLE IN EVERYTHING IN THE CITY, YOU MUST DEVELOP A LOT OF SOCIAL HOLDINGS.

>> Reporter: ACROSS EUROPE, THERE'S A DANGER OF CITIES TURNING INTO MUSEUMS AND ORDINARY PEOPLE BEING PUSHED OUT, BUT HERE IN PARIS, THERE'S THE ADDED PARTICULARITY, THIS WAS A CITY ENTIRELY REDESIGNED IN THE MID 19th CENTURY, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT GIVES IT ITS BEAUTY, BUT ALSO WHAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR THE CITY TO ADAPT TO THE NEEDS OF THE 21st CENTURY.

IN THE 20th CENTURY, SOCIAL HOUSING WAS BUILD IN THE OUTSKIRTS, WHERE OCCASIONALLY TOP ARCHITECTS WERE HIRED TO DESIGN VAST SOCIAL HOUSING AND SOMETIMES GRAND PROJECTS, LIKE THIS ESTATE THAT WAS BUILD IN THE EARLY 1980s.

BUT FOR ALL THEIR OCCASIONAL GRAND YOUR, ESTATES LIKE THESE WERE KEPT AT ARM'S LENGTH OF THE CHIC STREETS OF CENTRAL PARIS, WHICH MEANT LONG COMMUTES FOR THOSE WHO LIVED THERE.

THEN, IN 2001, PARIS' TOWN HALL WAS WON BY THE LEFT.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: PIVATE OWNERS, WARY OF LOWERING HOUSE VALUES, JUST ONE OF THE HURDLES THAT PARIS' TOWN HALL HAD TO OVERCOME.

IN FACT, THE AVERAGE PRICE OF A ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT IN PARIS HAS MORE THAN DOUBLED THESE LAST 20 YEARS, AND NEARLY TRIPLED IN SOME AREAS FOR TWO-BEDROOM HOMES, WHICH, IN TURNS HAS MADE SOCIAL HOUSING ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT.

ALREADY, IT IS 1 IN 9 PARISIANS THAT BENEFITS.

PEOPLE LIKE ZENA, WHOSE PLACE ALLOWS HER TO LIVE CLOSE TO THE CENTRAL PARIS HOSPITAL WHERE SHE WORKS.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: AN OPEN AIR MUSEUM THAT IS NOW SEEKING TO HELP THOSE WHO KEEP ITS SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS RUNNING TO BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THEM, TOO.

>> MELISSA BELL WITH IDEAS THAT WORK.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, PARIS HOUSING FOR ONE OF ITS OLDEST AND MOST FAMOUS RESIDENTS, LEONARDO DAVIN CHI'S MONA LISA, IS ONE OF THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED PAINTINGS IN THE WORLD, AND NOW IT MIGHT BE GETTING A ROOM OF ITS OWN IN THE LOUVRE.

AROUND 20,000 PEOPLE A DAY FLOCK THERE TO CATCH A GLIMPSE OF HER ENIGMATIC SMILE, MAKING IT MORE THAN A LITTLE CROWDED.

THE MUSEUM PRESIDENT SAYS MOVING THE ARTWORK WILL IMPROVE THE VISITOR EXPERIENCE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND