04.30.2024

April 30, 2024

Palestinian Observer to the UN, Riyad Mansour discusses the dimming prospect of a ceasefire in the region and Israel’s looming offensive on Rafah. Robert Kagan explores the roots of threats to American democracy in his new book “Rebellion.” Senior Adviser at The Lincoln Project Stuart Stevens discusses the state of the GOP and what their embrace of Donald Trump means for the party and the country.

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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WHAT WE NEED IS A CEASEFIRE.

WE NEED TO SAVE LIVES, NOT TO KILL MORE PALESTINIANS.

>> ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER SAYS HIS ARMY WILL INVADE RAFAH WITH OR WITHOUT A HOSTAGE DEAL.

HOW LONG DOES THIS WAR LAST, AND WHAT CAN A DAY AFTER REALLY LOOK LIKE?

MY CONVERSATION WITH THE TOP PALESTINIAN DIPLOMAT RIYAD MANSOUR AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

>>> THEN A DRAMATIC THOUGHT.

COULD AMERICA'S NEXT ELECTION BE ITS LAST?

THAT'S THE FEAR OF AUTHOR AND BROOKINGS FELLOW ROBERT KAGAN AS DEMOCRACY FACES SEVERE THREATS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> I SPENT A LOT OF SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME TO GRIPS WITH IT, BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW IS AN AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENT.

>> THE VIEW FROM THE ANTI-MAGA RIGHT.

SENIOR ADVISER TO THE LINCOLN PROJECT STUART STEVENS TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY BEING STUCK IN THE COURTROOM MAY BE JUST WHAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN NEEDS.

>>> PLUS, INDIAN MUSLIMS SAY THEY NO LONGER FEEL SAFE AS THE WORLD'S MOST POPULOUS DEMOCRACY HOLDS ELECTIONS.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS THE FATE OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND CIVILIANS IN GAZA HANG IN THE BALANCE, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TODAY TOLD HOSTAGE FAMILIES THAT DEAL OR NO DEAL WITH HAMAS, ISRAEL'S OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH IS GOING AHEAD.

>> Translator: WE WILL ENTER RAFAH BECAUSE WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

WE WILL DESTROY THE HAMAS BATTALIONS THERE.

WE WILL COMPLETE ALL THE OBJECTIVES OF THE WAR, INCLUDING THE RETURN OF ALL OUR HOSTAGES.

>> MEANWHILE, THE HEAD OF THE U.N.

RELIEF AGENCY KNOWN AS UNRWA SAYS THERE IS DEEP ANXIETY AMONGST PALESTINIANS IN RAFAH.

MORE THAN A MILLION HAVE CROWDED INTO THAT TOWN WHERE ISRAEL ORDERED THEM TO FLEE ITS OFFENSES ACROSS THE REST OF THE GAZA STRIP.

UNRWA ALSO SAYS FOOD SUPPLIES HAVE INCREASED THIS MONTH UNDER INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, BUT NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO STAVE OFF FAMINE.

WITH THE PROSPECT OF A CEASEFIRE DIM AT BEST NOW, EVEN AS A SECRETARY OF STATE CRISSCROSSES THE REGION, I REACHED RIYAD MANSOUR IN NEW YORK.

HE IS THE OFFICIAL PALESTINIAN OBSERVATORY THE UNITED NATIONS, AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS FEARS FOR TODAY AND THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY'S PLANS FOR THE DAY AFTER THE WAR.

AMBASSADOR MANSOUR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO REPORTS FROM ISRAEL TODAY THAT NETANYAHU, THE PRIME MINISTER, HAS TOLD HOSTAGE FAMILIES THAT WITH OR WITHOUT A DEAL WITH HAMAS, THERE WILL BE A MOVE ON RAFAH.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> THAT WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC, AND WE SHOULD AS AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BY ALL MEANS AVOID THIS CATASTROPHE IN RAFAH.

WHAT WE NEED IS A CEASEFIRE.

WE NEED TO SAVE LIVES, NOT TO KILL MORE PALESTINIANS.

>> THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRESIDENT MAHMOOD ABBAS SAID THE UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT CAN STOP ISRAEL FROM ATTACKING RAFAH.

BUT AS YOU'VE SEEN, NO AMOUNT OF PROTEST AND DISUASION BY THE UNITED STATES SEEMS TO BE WORKING AT ALL.

DO YOU BELIEVE THE UNITED STATES HAS ANY POWER TO AFFECT THIS ON THE GROUND?

>> I BELIEVE IT HAS THE POWER TO AFFECT THINGS ON THE GROUND, AND WE THOUGHT THAT THE STATEMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN IN SAUDI ARABIA, THAT THE UNITED STATES STILL OF THE OPINION THAT ISRAEL SHOULD NOT STORM RAFAH AND ATTACK IT.

WHAT WE NEED IS A CEASEFIRE, NOT TO CAVE IN TO THE SELFISH DESIRE OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, WHO IS WILLING TO DESTROY PALESTINE AND ISRAEL ALL TOGETHER FOR THE POLITICAL SURVIVAL OF HIMSELF.

>> HAVE YOU SEEN OR HEARD OR BEEN TOLD OF ANY EFFORTS TO PROTECT THE CIVILIANS IN RAFAH?

LIKE SO MANY CIVILIANS HAVE MOVED ON TO ISRAELI ORDERS TO THE SOUTH, TO RAFAH.

AND NOW THEY ARE A POTENTIAL TARGET.

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PROGRESS IN ANY EFFORTS TO MOVE THEM OUT OF THE WAY?

>> THE WAY TO PROTECT THE 1.4 MILLION PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN TOLD TO MOVE TO THE SOUTH AND THEY ARE AROUND RAFAH IS NOT TO ALLOW THE STORMING OF RAFAH.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE THIS LARGE CIVILIAN POPULATION IN RAFAH AND AROUND RAFAH.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT IF IT DOES COME TO PASS, THAT THERE IS A STORMING OF RAFAH, AS YOU PUT IT, THAT, AGAIN, THERE WILL BE THIS IDEA OF POTENTIALLY FORCING THE PALESTINIANS ACROSS THE BORDER INTO EGYPT.

YOU REMEMBER THAT WAS A FEAR AT THE VERY BEGINNING, AND THE EGYPTIANS SAID NO.

AND FROM THE WEST BANK SIDE, THE JORDANIANS SAID NO.

WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN NOW?

COULD THAT HAPPEN?

>> WE ARE STILL EXTREMELY CONCERNED AS PALESTINIANS, AS PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP, ALSO AS EGYPTIANS AND AS ARABS.

WE LIVED IN 1948.

WE DO NOT WANT TO LIVE ANOTHER NACHHBAR IF ONE OR TWO MILLION PALESTINIANS TO BE FORCED TO BE PUSHED INTO THE SINAI, INTO EGYPT.

THAT WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC.

THAT WOULD BE A SECOND NACHHBAR FOR US.

AND THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY HARM THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND EGYPT.

>> DO YOU THINK IF THEY WERE PUSHED OUT, THEY WOULD BE ALLOWED BACK?

>> IF THEY ARE PUSHED OUT, THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED BACK BECAUSE THE PLANS OF THIS EXTREME ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS TO DEPOPULATE GAZA, TO DESTROY UNRWA, AND THEN MOVE TO THE WEST BANK TO PUSH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS FROM THE WEST BANK IN THE DIRECTION OF EGYPT SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE MASSIVE DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSFORMATION IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, INCLUDING EAST JERUSALEM, WHICH ARE THE INTENTIONS OF THE EXTREMISTS IN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

>> COULD I JUST CLARIFY.

YOU MEAN PUSH THEM OUT OF THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK INTO JORDAN OR EGYPT?

>> YES.

>> INTO JORDAN?

>> INTO JORDAN.

>> OKAY.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE NOW?

BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY, MANY REPORTS OF TERRITORY AND FARMS AND LANDS OF THE PALESTINIAN INHABITANTS, YOU KNOW, BEING OVERRUN, BEING TAKEN, PROPERTY BEING TAKEN, AND SOME, YOU KNOW, SOME ATTEMPTS TO MOVE PALESTINIANS OUT OF THEIR VILLAGES.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION ON THE WEST BANK?

>> THE HEART OF THE EXTREMISTS IN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS BASED IN THE SETTLER ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN IN THE WEST BANK, WHICH THEY WANT TO DEPOPULATE THE WEST BANK FROM THE PALESTINIAN ARABS SO THAT -- THAT WHAT THEY CALL JUDEA AND SUMERIA TO BE EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE JEWISH POPULATION IN THAT AREA.

AND ALL OF THE ANNEXATION THAT YOU SEE, THE EXPANSIONS OF SETTLEMENTS, THE TERRORISMS OF SETTLERS AGAINST THE VILLAGERS, PALESTINIAN VILLAGERS IN THE WEST BANK, ALL OF THAT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF CREATING FEAR SO THAT THE PALESTINIANS EITHER TO FLEE OR TO BE PUSHED BACK, PUSHED INTO THE DIRECTION OF EGYPT.

>> EGYPT OR JORDAN?

YOU KEEP SAYING EGYPT.

DO YOU MEAN JORDAN?

>> SORRY, SORRY, JORDAN.

SORRY, JORDAN.

>> OKAY.

I GET IT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS ALREADY SANCTIONED SOME OF THESE EXTREMISTS, AND THEY ALSO DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING TO SOME PALESTINIANS THERE.

ARE YOU GETTING ANY SUPPORT FROM THE IDF, FROM ANY OF THE SECURITY FORCES WHO ARE IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK TO PROTECT PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS?

>> SOME OF THOSE IDF FORCES ARE COLLABORATING WITH THE SETTLERS, WITH THE TERRORIST SETTLERS.

IN FACT, WE WELCOME THE POSITION OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN HOLDING THOSE MILITARY FORCES ACCOUNTABLE FOR THESE CRIMES.

AND I BELIEVE THAT SOME MEASURES HAVE BEEN TAKEN AND ELEMENTS AND FLIGHT BATTALIONS OF THE ISRAELI ARMY IN THE WEST BANK.

MORE OF THAT SHOULD TAKE PLACE, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE PROTECTING THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION, NOT TO COLLABORATE WITH THE TERRORIST SETTLERS AND TERRORIZING THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION AND FORCING THEM TO BE PUSHED OUT IN THE DIRECTION OF JORDAN.

>> AMBASSADOR, GETTING BACK TO GAZA, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT AFTER THIS WAR, HAMAS CAN EVER COME BACK TO CONTINUE IN POWER IN GAZA?

>> YOU SEE ALL THE POLITICAL FORCES AMONG THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IS A PALESTINIAN ISSUE.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR US NOW IS TO STOP THIS WAR, TO BEGIN THE PROCESS OF REHEALING, ATTENDING TO THE WOUNDS OF OUR PEOPLE, AND REBUILDING THE GAZA STRIP.

AND THESE ARE THE MAIN TASKS FOR THE NEW PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT LED BY PRIME MINISTER HAMID MUSTAFA.

AFTER THAT, WE WILL GO THROUGH ALL THE PROCESSES THAT WE NEED TO GO THROUGH, INCLUDING PREPARING FOR ELECTIONS.

AND WHOEVER WIN THE ELECTIONS OR THE FORCES THAT WON THE ELECTION WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR FORMING THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE STATE OF PALESTINE AND ALL OF ITS COMPONENT, INCLUDING THE GAZA STRIP, THE WEST BANK, AND EAST JERUSALEM.

>> SO LET ME TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS THEN.

THERE ARE MANY POLLS THAT SHOW QUITE A LOT OF DISAFFECTION AMONGST PALESTINIANS FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND INCREASINGLY, WE'RE SEEING STORIES EVEN FROM GAZA, EVEN UNDER THE BOMBARDMENTS AND THE MILITARY OFFENSIVE THERE, DISAFFECTION AMONGST SOME PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN WITH HAMAS FOR THEIR PAST, THEIR LACK OF GOVERNANCE, THEIR INABILITY TO BRING THEM SAFETY, SECURITY, ECONOMY.

AND NOW BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY'RE ENDURING RIGHT NOW.

BUT THERE IS ALSO A HUGE AMOUNT OF DISAFFECTION WITH YOU, AS I SAID, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

THE LATEST POLL, THE POLL IN MARCH SHOWS HOW THE FATAH PARTY SUPPORTERS REALLY PLUMMETED.

AND MANY PEOPLE REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ALSO NEEDS TO COMPLETELY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT CAN REFORM, BUT IT REALLY HAS NOT DELIVERED.

SO GIVEN ALL OF THAT, WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR THE DAY AFTER?

>> WELL, LET ME JUST SAY THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH SO MUCH UNDER THIS RUTHLESS OCCUPATION AND THE MANY WARS CONDUCTED AGAINST OUR PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN THE GAZA STRIP, INCLUDING THIS LAST VICIOUS WAR, A WAR OF GENOCIDE AGAINST OUR PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP.

SO THEREFORE, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE A GOOD REASONS FOR BEING ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED WITH EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, INCLUDING THEIR OWN SITUATION.

SO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT WHAT WE NEED IS WE NEED TO STOP THIS WAR, TO START GIVING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HOPE.

AND HOPE CAN COME IF WE CAN FIND WAYS TO PUT AN END TO THIS OCCUPATION TO ALLOW THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO EXERCISE SELF-DETERMINATION, INCLUDING INDEPENDENCE ON THEIR OWN STATE, AND TO GOVERN THEMSELVES WITHOUT THE EVILS OF OCCUPATION.

IF WE HAVE A PATH IN THAT DIRECTION, THEN THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL ELECT THE LEADERS WILL ENTER INTO A DIFFERENT ERA OF THEIR LIVES THAN THE MISERABLE ERA OF LIVING UNDER OCCUPATION.

>> AND YOU'VE SEEN PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTS SPREADING ACROSS U.S.

CAMPUSES, SOME OF THEM IN EUROPE AS WELL.

YOU MUST, A, BE PLEASED WITH THAT.

BUT I OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE CRITICISM, AND THAT IS SOME PEOPLE HOLDING UP HAMAS SLOGANS AND SIGNS.

AND I JUST WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE?

DOES THAT ACTUALLY HELP YOUR CAUSE?

DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD TELL THEM TO TAKE DOWN THOSE SIGNS?

>> WE CANNOT TELL THEM, YOU KNOW, WHAT TO DO.

BUT I AM THRILLED.

WE ARE THRILLED THAT THERE IS THIS MASSIVE MOVEMENT IN U.S.

CAMPUSES CALLING FOR CEASEFIRE, IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE AND SAVING LIVES, AND CALLING FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO EXERCISE THEIR DETERMINATION.

TO SEE THE HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIAN FLAGS FLOWN IN ALL THESE CAMPUSES IS SO THRILLING.

THIS IS A SENSE OF JUSTICE FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

AND WHEN YOU SEE HUNDREDS IN THE STREETS SAYING IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE, SAVE THE LIVES OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, I HOPE LEADERS EVERYWHERE, INCLUDING IN WASHINGTON, D.C. TO LISTEN TO THESE POWERFUL MESSAGES AND TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP THE WAR AND THE ONSLAUGHT AND THE AGGRESSION AGAINST OUR PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP, AND TO BEGIN THE PROCESS OF THE DAY AFTER.

>> AMBASSADOR RIYAD MANSOUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AS DEBATES AROUND FREE SPEECH PULSE THROUGH COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AS WE SAW, THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN THE UNITED STATES COULD BE ABOUT THE SURVIVAL OF DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

BUT HOW DID WE GET TO THIS POINT WHERE ILLIBERALISM SO SERIOUSLY THREATENS WHAT WAS ONCE THE GLOBAL ROLE MODEL OF THE REPUBLIC.

ROBERT KAGAN IS A LONG-TIME POLICY EXPERT WHO WORKED IN THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION DURING THE 1980s.

HIS NEW BOOK "REBELLION" EXAMINES THE ROOTS OF THIS CURRENT CRISIS AND WHAT MIGHT COME NEXT.

HE IS JOINING US FROM NEW YORK, IN FACT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS READ THE REST OF THE TITLE, "REBELLION: HOW ANTI-LIBERALISM IS TEARING AMERICA APART AGAIN."

ROBERT, BRIEFLY TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, THE FOUNDERS CREATED A GOVERNMENT, WHICH WE'VE BEEN LIVING WITH BASED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, WHICH ARE FUNDAMENTALLY LIBERAL PRINCIPLES.

THEY'RE ABOUT INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.

THEY'RE ABOUT HUMAN EQUALITY.

THEY'RE ABOUT THE UNIVERSEALITY OF UNIVERSAL RIGHTS.

AND SINCE THE FOUNDING THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RESISTANCE TO THOSE PRINCIPLES.

OBVIOUSLY IN THE EARLY YEARS BY SLAVEHOLDERS.

LATER BY THE JIM CROW SOUTH.

OFTEN BY RELIGIOUS GROUPS THAT FEEL THAT THEY'RE LOSING THEIR POSITION, PARTICULARLY WHITE CHRISTIANS, WHO FEEL THAT THEY'RE LOSING THEIR POSITION IN SOCIETY.

AND THEY HAVE IN THE CASE OF CIVIL WAR FOUGHT AN ACTUAL REBELLION.

WE THOUGHT ALL THIS HAD GONE AWAY.

BUT AS WE SEE TODAY, THERE IS ONCE AGAIN THESE FORCES HAVE RISEN.

THEY'VE CAPTURED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND WHAT THEY WANT IS A CHANGE OF REGIME, AS THEY CALL IT, THE REGIME.

AND THE REGIME THEY WANT CHANGED IS THE SYSTEM THAT THE FOUNDERS ESTABLISHED WITH THE CONSTITUTION AND AFTER THE REVOLUTION.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE SAID, AND WE'VE QUOTED YOU AS SAYING THAT THIS NEXT ELECTION COULD BE THE LAST.

YOU BASICALLY SAID AMERICA IS ONE ELECTION AWAY FROM BECOMING REALITY, THIS IDEA OF OVERTHROWING AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

AND TO THE ALARMISTS WHO MIGHT SAY OH, BOB, THERE YOU GO AGAIN, ARE YOU REALLY, YOU KNOW, REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT THE STRONGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD IS IN THREAT OF BEING OVERTHROWN, AND BY WHOM?

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

ARE THEY STRONG ENOUGH, OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, TO BE FLAGRANTLY DISREGARDING, BUT NONETHELESS, EVEN FOUR YEARS OF TRUMP, THE REPUBLIC HELD.

>> WELL, IT HELD JUST BARELY BY A THREAD.

IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR MIKE PENCE, WE DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD HAVE HELD.

I THINK IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS ALREADY TRIED TO BECOME A DICTATOR WHEN HE ATTEMPTED TO ANNUL A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION AND DECLARE HIMSELF THE VICTOR, IF HE HAD SUCCEEDED, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN RULING AS A DICTATOR, NOT A AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

SO THE QUESTION ARISES HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY PUT SOMEONE LIKE THAT BACK IN OFFICE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CORE OF HIS SUPPORT, THE REALLY WHITE-HOT CORE OF THE TRUMP MOVEMENT DOES WANT TO SEE THIS SYSTEM OVERTHROWN.

THEY DO WANT A DIFFERENT FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

SOME OF THEM WANT A CHRISTIAN NATION, WHICH IS ALSO CONTRARY TO WHAT THE FOUNDERS ESTABLISHED.

SOME OF THEM WANT A WHITE NATION, A NATION WHERE WHITES ENJOY THE PRIVILEGES THAT THEY HAD ENJOYED IN THE PAST.

MANY PEOPLE WANT TO TURN THE CLOCK BACK.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

IT'S NOT SO SHOCKING WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ENTIRETY OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

THESE GROUPS HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED.

WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW IS THEY'VE TAKEN CONTROL OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND THEY HAVE SOMEONE AS THEIR LEADER WHO IS WILLING TO DESTROY THE SYSTEM.

THAT'S WHAT HE IS.

HE IS A WRECKER.

>> JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT THINK THE WAY YOU THINK, IN COURT, AND YOU MUST BE WATCHING THIS VERY CAREFULLY, THE CURRENT COURT CASE, HIS DEFENSE IS THAT IN FACT I WAS NOT TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM.

EVERYTHING I DID WAS TO ENSURE THE INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION.

I MEAN, THAT'S THE HEART OF THE IMMUNITY CASE IN THE SUPREME COURT.

>> IT'S ABSURD ON THE FACE OF IT.

WE ALREADY KNOW HOW UNTRUE THAT IS.

IS IT HELPING THE ELECTION, THE INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION TO ASK A GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA TO FIND ME SOME MORE VOTES?

DOES IT HELP THE ELECTION INTEGRITY TO CREATE PHONY ELECTORAL STATES AND PHONY ELECTORAL SLATS IN THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT STATES?

IT'S VERY CLEAR WHAT TRUMP TRIED TO DO.

HE CAN SAY ANYTHING HE WANTS.

THE QUESTION WHY SHOULD ANYONE BELIEVE HIM, UNLESS THEY'RE SO DEEPLY COMMITTED TO WHAT HE'S TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM, TO WREAK VENGEANCE ON THOSE THAT HE IS ANGRY AT.

THEY'RE ALL DOWN WITH THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY BUY THIS NONSENSE THAT HE SPILLS.

>> THEN WHY IS IT -- LET'S JUST SAY THEY'RE THE MAGA HEART OF HIS SUPPORTERS.

BUT THEN THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY MAGA, BUT THEY HAPPEN TO BE REPUBLICANS.

PEOPLE LIKE, YOU KNOW, BILL BARR, WHO WAS ATTORNEY GENERAL, AND WHO ALSO DIDN'T GO ALONG WITH THE EFFORT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

AND YET HE HAS NOW SAID THAT HE WOULD VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN TICKET, IE DONALD TRUMP.

I'M GOING PLAY YOU A LITTLE INTERCHANGE HE HAD WITH CNN'S KAITLAN COLLINS A FEW DAYS AGO.

>> YOU'RE VOTING FOR SOMEONE YOU BELIEVE TRIED TO SUBVERT THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POLICY, THAT CAN'T ACHIEVE HIS OWN POLICIES, THAT LIED ABOUT THE ELECTION EVEN AFTER HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL TOLD HIM THAT THE ELECTION WASN'T STOLEN, SAND THE FORMER CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE COUNTRY, YOU'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS FACING 88 CRIMINAL COUNTS?

>> LOOK, THE 88 CRIMINAL COUNTS, A LOT OF THOSE -- AND I SAID -- >> EVEN IF 10 OF THEM ARE ACCURATE.

>> THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS YES, I'M SUPPORTING THE REPUBLICAN TICKET.

>> IT IS ASTOUNDING.

HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

IS IT JUST BASIC PARTY POLITICS THAT REPUBLICANS -- THESE REPUBLICANS WILL VOTE FOR A REPUBLICAN, NO MATTER WHO IT IS?

OR DO YOU THINK HE IS AMONGST THE DESTROYERS?

>> NO, HE IS A COWARD.

IN HIS CASE, IT'S JUST COWARDICE.

HE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN A TRUMP TERM AFTER ALL THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HE SAID ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, HE IS BASICALLY TRYING TO FIND HIS WAY BACK INTO THE GOOD GRACES.

HE IS AFRAID THAT DONALD TRUMP MAY WIN, AND HE IS PROBABLY WORRIED ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES TO HIM.

BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT HE BELIEVES THE THINGS THAT HE SAYS.

WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS RATIONALIZE WHAT ESSENTIALLY IS HIM FOLDING TO DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE OF A MASSIVE NUMBER OF SORT OF PROFESSIONAL REPUBLICANS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD JOBS IN THE PAST, WOULD LIKE TO HAVE JOBS IN THE FUTURE, WOULD LIKE TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF BEING A GOOD REPUBLICAN IN THE FUTURE.

THE LARGER QUESTION IS WHY ARE ALL SORT OF PEOPLE WE USED TO THINK OF AS AVERAGE REPUBLICANS BEING WILLING TO SUPPORT SOMEONE WHO HAS DEMONSTRATED HIS WILLINGNESS TO BECOME A DICTATOR?

AND THE ANSWER THERE I THINK IS MOSTLY THAT THEY JUST DON'T CARE THAT MUCH.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I DISCUSS IN MY BOOK, SOMETHING THAT THOMAS JEFFERSON WORRIED ABOUT, SOMETHING THAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN TALKED ABOUT IN HIS FAMOUS LYCEUM SPEECH IN 1838.

AMERICANS HAVE LOST THE FUNDAMENTAL LOVE OF LIBERTY, THE FUNDAMENTAL VIRTUES THAT ARE REQUIRED IN OUR SYSTEM.

IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO ONLY WANT FREEDOM AND LIBERTY FOR YOURSELF.

IN OUR SYSTEM, YOU HAVE TO WANT IT FOR EVERYONE.

AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT SORT OF SENSE OF LIBERAL VIRTUE, THE BELIEF IN THESE UNIVERSAL VALUES, THEN YOU'RE WILLING TO ALLOW SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO DESTROY THEM TO TAKE POWER.

>> SO LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THESE FUNDAMENTAL AMERICAN VALUES.

THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ONE OF THEM.

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

ALL OF THAT IS BEING DEMONSTRATED AND TESTED ON AMERICAN CAMPUSES RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE WAR WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING EARLIER, ISRAEL'S WAR IN GAZA.

YOU KNOW, DO YOU SEE, AS SOME HAVE WRITTEN, A COLUMBIA HISTORY PROFESSOR, THAT IT WAS INEVITABLE THAT THIS HEAVY-HANDED RESPONSE THAT HAS CAUSED IT TO GO EVEN FURTHER OUT OF CONTROL, CALLING THE POLICE ON THE CAMPUS, NATIONAL GUARD IN SOME STATES WAS GOING TO LEAD TO THE CURRENT SITUATION?

BECAUSE I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU CONNECT THAT WITH THE ILLIBERALISM.

BECAUSE WE SAW OVER THE YEARS REPUBLICANS, EVEN THOSE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT LIKE THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA CRITICIZING SO-CALLED LIBERAL, AND THEY WOULD ADD WOKE, ELITE UNIVERSITIES, BANNING BOOKS FROM SCHOOLS, ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE.

>> RIGHT.

AND NOW THEY WANT TO USE THESE PROTESTS AS SORT OF ITEM A IN THE GENERAL VIEW THAT REPUBLICANS AND DONALD TRUMP IN PARTICULAR ARE TRYING TO SELL, THAT THE LEFT HAS TAKEN OVER, THAT THEY'RE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY, THAT WE'RE IN CHAOS.

AND I THINK THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU MAY FEEL, ANYONE MAY FEEL ABOUT THE PROTESTS AND THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE PROTESTS OR THE WAY THEY'RE BEING CONDUCTED, THE ONE THING THAT WE CAN ALL BE CONFIDENT OF IS THAT THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT IS NOT THREATENED BY STUDENTS PROTESTING ON CAMPUSES.

WE WILL SURVIVE STUDENTS PROTESTING ON CAMPUSES, BUT WHERE THE REAL THREAT COMES FROM IS HAVING SOMEONE WHO HAS ALREADY DEMONSTRATED HIS DICTATORIAL TENDENCIES BE GIVEN POWER AGAIN IN A CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE THERE WILL BE NO ONE TO STOP HIM, NOT THE SUPREME COURT AS WE'VE SEEN, NOT IF IT'S A REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED CONGRESS IF WE'VE SEEN.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT, YOU KNOW.

WE CAN SPEND ALL OUR TIME TALKING ABOUT STUDENT PROTESTS, BUT IT'S A REAL FAVORITE OF DONALD TRUMP THAT THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY AND NOT THE THREAT THAT HE POSES TO THIS NATION.

>> I'M GOING COME BACK TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU THINK WE, THE PRESS, ALSO HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AND ALSO PART OF THIS WHOLE BODY POLITIC, AS YOU SAW OBVIOUSLY DURING THE WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS' DINNER, BIDEN ROASTED TRUMP, BIDEN WAS ROASTED BY THE OTHERS.

BUT HE SAID THE FOLLOWING, AND IT WAS DIRECTED AT THE CORRESPONDENTS IN THE ROOM, AND PROBABLY AT ALL OF US.

>> I'M SINCERELY NOT ASKING ANY OF YOU TO TAKE SIDES.

I'M ASKING YOU TO RISE UP TO THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE MOMENT.

MOVE PAST THE HORSE RACE NUMBERS AND THE GOTCHA MOMENTS AND THE DISTRACTIONS, THE SIDESHOWS THAT HAVE COME TO DOMINATE AND SENSATIONALIZE OUR POLITICS.

AND FOCUS ON WHAT'S ACTUALLY AT STAKE.

>> SO DO YOU THINK, LIKE HE DOES, HE IS PUTTING US ON NOTICE, YOU'RE GOING TO DO YOUR JOB PROPERLY?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THAT THE PRESS IS NOT DOING ITS JOB PROPERLY.

THERE ARE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES THAT I THINK ARE HARMFUL IN TERMS OF THE PRESS.

I THINK COVERING TRUMP THE WAY HE GETS COVERED, COVERING THE HORSE RACE OF THE ELECTION THE WAY IT GETS COVERED IS JUST ABOUT MONEY.

BUT THE PRESS I THINK ALSO REALIZES THAT THERE IS NO FREE PRESS IN ALL LIKELIHOOD IN A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS EXISTENTIAL.

AND I THINK THEY DO.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE LOOKING INFORMATION.

THIS IS WHERE I FEEL LIKE WE'VE GONE TOO FAR WITH THE NOTION THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE FOX VIEWERS DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

I THINK EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THEY'RE MAKING THEIR CHOICES ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY REGARD AS THEIR INTERESTS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, FOR MANY PEOPLE, THEIR INTERESTS DO NOT INCLUDE PRESERVING THE GOVERNMENT THAT THE FOUNDERS OF BEQUEATHED TO US.

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN SAID ALLEGEDLY, A REPUBLIC IF YOU CAN KEEP IT.

AND I THINK THERE IS A REAL QUESTION WHETHER ENOUGH AMERICANS REALLY CARE ABOUT KEEPING IT AT THIS POINT.

>> SO DO ENOUGH AMERICANS, INCLUDING THE ADMINISTRATION CARE ENOUGH ABOUT WHAT THEY'VE ALL CALLED, AT LEAST THE ADMINISTRATION, THE FRONT LINE FOR DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE TODAY, OF COURSING AMERICA IS IN UKRAINE.

RUSSIA WANTS TO REESTABLISH ITS OLD, YOU KNOW, ITS OLD POWER BASE IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION, AND IT IS NOW, NOW MAKING REAL INROADS.

DO YOU SEE THAT AND THE SO FAR INABILITY TO REALLY GIVE UKRAINE WHAT IT NEEDS TO WIN AS THREATENING THE LIBERAL DEMOCRACY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK?

>> WELL, THERE IS TWO THINGS TO BE SAID.

ONE IS THAT THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THE REASON WE REGARD UKRAINE AS A VITAL INTEREST IN THE WAY THAT MITCH McCONNELL HAS TALKED ABOUT IT, IN THE WAY THAT MIKE JOHNSON HAS TALKED ABOUT IT IS BECAUSE IT IS LIBERALISM THAT IS UNDER THREAT IN EUROPE.

AND WE KNOW THAT PUTIN IS ANTITHETICAL TO LIBERALISM.

HE IS HOSTILE TO LIBERALISM.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT WE SHOULD TAKE NOTE OF IS ALL THESE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE PRO-PUTIN, THEY'RE NOT PRO-PUTIN ON GEOPOLITICAL GROUNDS.

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THEY'RE PRO-PUTIN BECAUSE HE IS ANTI-LIBERAL.

HE IS OPPOSED TO DEMOCRACY.

THEY LIKE HIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

TUCKER CARLSON WENT THERE AND TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO US WHY EVERYBODY IN RUSSIA IS LIVING BETTER THAN EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE HE PREFERS THAT.

I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE PRO-PUTIN WANT TO KILL LIBERAL DEMOCRACY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> I JUST HAVE TO POINT OUT IN DUE DILIGENCE THAT YOU ARE MARRIED TO VICTORIA NULAND WHO WAS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND OVERSEEING A LOT OF THE UKRAINE ISSUE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE McCALL SAYS RUSSIA HAS INFECTED A BUNCH OF MY BASE, HE IS A REPUBLICAN.

REPUBLICAN MAX MILLER SAYS 15 TO 20 MEMBERS OF REPUBLICAN CONGRESS ARE, QUOTE, COMPROMISED BY RUSSIA.

HOW IS RUSSIA SUCCEEDING, PARTICULARLY WITH THE PARTY WHO USED TO BE THE ONE THAT STOOD UP AGAINST COMMUNISM AND FOUGHT THAT FIGHT FOR SO MANY GENERATIONS?

>> WELL, AGAIN, IT'S CLEARLY NOT THAT PARTY ANYMORE.

AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THE RUSSIANS ARE BRILLIANTLY FIGURING OUT HOW TO BRAINWASH AMERICAN CONGRESSMEN AND WOMEN.

THEY KNOW PERFECTLY WELL WHAT THE TRUTH IS.

WHAT THEY ARE WILLING TO DO IS SPOUT DELIBERATELY RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IN ORDER TO MAKE THEIR CASE AT HOME.

IF YOU WANT TO BE OPPOSED TO UKRAINE AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T MAKE A GEOPOLITICAL ARGUMENT FOR IT, BECAUSE IT'S OBVIOUSLY IN AMERICA'S INTERESTS TO DO IT, THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU'RE GOING MAKE IS UKRAINE IS A NAZI GOVERNMENT, OR THAT UKRAINE IS CORRUPT BEYOND ALL HOPE, OR THAT THE WAR IS AMERICA'S FAULT, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE AND OTHERS SAY.

BUT IT'S NOT THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE SUCCEEDING.

IT'S THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE LEAPING ON ANY ARGUMENT THAT THEY CAN OFFER.

AND SOMETIMES THE RUSSIANS GIVE THEM SOME GOOD ARGUMENTS.

>> AND FINALLY, BECAUSE TRUMP HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, ACCUSED OF BEING COZY WITH PUTIN, IF HE WINS -- WELL, MANY HAVE SAID THAT HIS TRIALS ARE JUST RILING UP HIS BASE EVEN MORE AND GETTING HIM MORE ATTENTION.

WHAT DO YOU SEE?

DO YOU SEE ANY POLITICAL VULNERABILITIES FOR TRUMP?

>> I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE POLITICAL VULNERABILITIES WHEN IT COMES TO SOMETHING LIKE ABORTION.

I THINK THAT POTENTIALLY CUTS INTO, YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF ALLEGEDLY MODERATE REPUBLICAN VOTE IN THE SUBURBS, ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN.

YOU KNOW, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THE MORE PEOPLE CAN BE MADE TO FOCUS ON THE FACT THAT HE IS A THREAT TO OUR SYSTEM, TO OUR LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM, THAT AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE AROUND THE MARGINS WILL DECIDE THAT IT'S TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE.

BUT RIGHT NOW I THINK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, IT SEEMS TO ME THE ELECTION IS TOO CLOSE TO CALL.

AND I DON'T SEE WHAT'S GOING CHANGE THE PRESENT DYNAMIC.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE EVENTS WE CAN'T FORESEE.

I CERTAINLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT HIS COURT TRIALS ARE GOING TO DO SO MUCH SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO HIM THAT IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE ELECTION.

>> REALLY INTERESTING.

ROBERT KAGAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

>>> NOW IN NEW YORK, THE TRUMP MACHINE FINDS THAT IT'S NOT IN CONTROL IN THE COURTROOM, WHICH WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT.

THE JUDGE PRESIDING OVER TRUMP'S HUSH MONEY ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE HAS FINED HIM $9,000 FOR VIOLATING A GAG ORDER.

HE ALSO WARNED TRUMP COULD FACE JAIL TIME IF HE CONTINUES TO DEFY THE ORDER BY PUBLICLY CRITICIZING EXPECTED TRIAL WITNESSES.

STUART STEVENS, A FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST ADMITS THAT HE IS TILL COMING TO GRIPS WITH TODAY'S GOP AND ITS EMBRACE OF A MAN FACING 91 CRIMINAL CHARGES IN THE GRAND OLD PARTY'S CREEPING CHARACTER.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND STUART STEVENS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, WALTER.

THANKS.

>> YOU'VE BEEN A REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST MOST OF YOUR LIFE, WORKED FOR GEORGE BUSH, MITT ROMNEY, AND THEN HAVE BEEN PART OF THE ANTI-TRUMP MOVEMENT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW YOU'RE WATCHING HIM ON TRIAL.

IN SOME WAYS HE IS RUNNING ON THE NOTION OF GRIEVANCE AND PERSECUTION.

DOES THIS TRIAL HELP HIM OR HURT HIM?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE SORT OF HEADLINE ON THIS IS THAT TRUMP IS STILL A VIABLE CANDIDATE AND HE IS ON TRIAL.

THAT IN ITSELF IS EXTRAORDINARY.

LOOK, I THINK IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE SMART PEOPLE RUNNING THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, THEY DO HAVE SMART PROFESSIONALS NOW, THIS ISN'T WHAT YOUR IDEAL SCENARIO WOULD HAVE BEEN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S NOT DISQUALIFYING TO TRUMP, WHICH IT WOULD BE FOR ANY OTHER CANDIDATE I CAN THINK OF.

AND WHAT -- THE ESSENCE OF THAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CYCLE IS BASED ON BEING A VICTIM.

IT'S THE GRIEVANCE CAMPAIGN.

I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION.

THE DEEP STATE IS OUT TO GET US.

WHAT BETTER PROOF THAT THE STATE IS OUT TO GET US THAN THE DEEP STATE HAS ME ON TRIAL.

>> AND YOU SAY THESE ARE REALLY SMART PEOPLE RUNNING THE CAMPAIGN.

ARE THEY GOING TO USE THIS TO HELP THIS POLITICS OF GRIEVANCE?

>> YES.

THEY'RE GOING USE IT TO TRY AS A PROOF POINT.

YOU HAVE TO GET INSIDE THEIR HEADS, WALTER, THE WHOLE TRUMP THING.

SO IN THEIR WORLD, TRUMP WON THE PRESIDENCY.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN STOLEN.

AND THE ONLY WAY THAT THEY CAN STOP TRUMP, WHO WAS ILLEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT, THEY SAY, FROM WINNING AGAIN IS TO PUT HIM IN JAIL.

SO THIS IS JUST THAT PROCESS OF THE DEEP STATE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY FROM YOU, THE VOTER, YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE YOUR PRESIDENT, AND THEY WOULD SAY RESTORE DEMOCRACY.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE ALIENS BUILT THE PYRAMIDS.

ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, EVERYTHING ELSE MAKES A LOFT SENSE.

THE PROBLEM IS ALIENS DIDN'T BUILD THE PYRAMIDS.

BUT THAT'S HOW THEY SEE THE WORLD.

AND THIS FITS INTO THAT WORLD VIEW.

>> IF TRUMP WERE NOT ON TRIAL, IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN ALL OF THESE INDICTMENTS, WOULD HE BE IN THE STRONGER OR WEAKER POSITION?

>> I THINK THAT THE INDICTMENTS HELPED HIM IN THE PRIMARY, BECAUSE IT THEN BECAME NECESSARY TO SUPPORT TRUMP IN THE PRIMARY TO PROVE THAT WHAT THE DEMOCRATS WERE SAYING, AND THEY PUT TO THE SAME DEMOCRATS IN THE DEEP STATE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO HELP HIM IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING BE DISCONCERTING AND WEARING TO PEOPLE TO SEE A POTENTIAL PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON TRIAL IN MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS.

>> BUT WAIT, HAVEN'T PEOPLE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR A YEAR OR TWO, THAT EVENTUALLY IT WILL EVENTUALLY WEAR DOWN?

>> YEAH, BUT THE AUDIENCE HAS BEEN -- THE AUDIENCE HAS BEEN VOTING, HAS BEEN THAT PRIMARY AUDIENCE, AND IT WAS FASCINATING TO SEE THE SPLIT IN THE PRIMARY ELECTORATE THAT PRETTY MUCH THE THRESHOLD BELIEF THAT IF YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP, YOU BELIEVE HE WON THE PRESIDENCY LAST TIME.

VERY FEW OF NIKKI HALEY'S VOTERS BELIEVE THAT.

THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT.

I THINK AS COMPARED TO THE TRUMP CANDIDACY AS SOMEBODY WALKING AROUND WITH A PAPER BAG FULL OF WATER.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING LEAK, BUT I THINK THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE IT'S GOING TO GO.

AND WHEN IT GOES, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO PUT THE WATER BACK IN THE BAG.

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY, NOT JUST A HARD-CORE BASE, BUT A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE PRIMARIES RALLIED AROUND HIM THAT WAY?

>> OH, WALTER, YOU KNOW, I HAD A GOING OUT OF BUSINESS SALE WITH ANY OPTIMISM IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

I THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN A COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF ANY MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE PARTY.

AND THE PEOPLE TO BLAME ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP.

DONALD TRUMP IS JUST BEING DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU AND I KNOW AND I HELPED ELECT A LOT OF THEM WHO BEFORE TRUMP, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE LUNCH WITH TRUMP.

THEY WOULDN'T LET TRUMP IN THEIR HOUSE.

THEY KNOW THAT HE'S DESTRUCTIVE TO DEMOCRACY.

THEY KNOW HE'S NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

THEY KNOW THAT PUTIN HELPED ELECT HIM.

AND YET THEY STILL SUPPORT HIM.

>> WHY IS THAT?

.

THAT IS A PROFOUND QUESTION.

AND I ASK MYSELF THAT.

AND THAT LED ME TO WRITE THIS BOOK "IT WAS ALL A LIE."

THE ONLY CONCLUSION I COME TO THAT MAKES ANY SENSE TO ME, AND I THINK MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL IS THAT ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE SPOUSE AS DEEP VALUES, WALTER, THAT THE PARTY HELD, CHARACTER COUNTS, STRONG ON SOVIET UNION, STRONG ON RUSSIA, THE DEFICIT MATTERS, ALL OF THESE THINGS WE SAID WERE VALUES WERE IN FACT JUST MARKETING SLOGANS.

SO, OKAY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE, THEN.

SO CHARACTER REALLY DOESN'T COUNT.

SURE, WE'LL SUPPORT THE CANDIDATE WHO SUPPORTS VLADIMIR PUTIN AND THE LONGEST WAR IN EUROPE SINCE WORLD WAR II.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO COME TO A CONCLUSION BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T ABANDON DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS IN A COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND THE PARTY HAS JUST WALKED AWAY FROM THESE.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW DOESN'T REALLY EXIST, AS A NORMAL AMERICAN POLITICAL PARTY IN ANY KIND OF TRADITION.

IT EXISTS TO DEFEAT DEMOCRATS.

AND THAT'S HOW CARTELS OPERATE.

NOBODY ASKED OPEC WHAT IS YOUR HIGHER PURPOSE.

YOU SELL OIL.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE A FUN THING TO ADMIT, AND IOWA SPENT A LOT OF SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME TO GRIPS WITH IT.

BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW IS AN AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENT.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT WHERE THEY'RE ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE THAT A PRESIDENT IS ABOVE THE LAW, IT'S JUST FURTHER PROOF OF THAT.

IT'S WHY THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT ISN'T WELL, VIKTOR ORBAN AND VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO HAVE OF COURSE PUSHED BACK, LIZ CHENEY MOST PROMINENT AMONG THEM, EVEN SENATOR MITT ROMNEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

DO YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY THAT MORE AND MORE REPUBLICANS LIKE THAT WILL COME FORWARD BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS MANY REPUBLICANS LIKE THEM.

I THINK IF TRUMP IS CONVICTED, IT MIGHT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR SOME.

I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING TO LOOK AT SAY, CHRIS CHRISTIE, WHO IS A FORMER CLIENT OF MINE.

I LOVE THE GUY.

COULD NOT BELIEVE HE ENDORSED DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.

I REMEMBER STANDING AT THE ATLANTA AIRPORT AND SEEING CNN AND LITERALLY TEARS CAME TO MY EYES.

HOW IS THIS PERSON THAT I LOVE DOING THIS?

AND I THINK HE SAYS IT IS A MISTAKE NOW, WHICH IS GOOD.

WHAT HE IS GOING OUT THERE AND SAYING NOW IS WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAID.

BUT WHEN YOU LISTEN TO CHRIS CHRISTIE, HOW DO YOU COME TO ANY OTHER CONCLUSION BUT YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT JOE BIDEN?

SAME WITH ASA HUTCHINSON, WHO RAN UNDER THE REPUBLICAN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS, ANOTHER FORMER CLIENT OF MINE.

ANOTHER REALLY GOD AND DECENT HUMAN BEING WHO I MAY NOT AGREE WITH HIS POLITICS.

YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT.

LIZ CHENEY HAS TO SUPPORT BIDEN.

MITT ROMNEY WILL SUPPORT BIDEN.

>> WILL YOU THINK?

I THINK THOSE TWO DEFINITELY WILL.

>> BIDEN HASN'T CALLED THEM YET.

DO YOU THINK BIDEN SHOULD REACH OUT TO ALL OF THEM AND CREATE A REPUBLICANS FOR BIDEN COMMITTEE?

>> SURE.

WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, IF A PROMINENT REPUBLICAN CAME TO ME AND SAID I WANT TO ENDORSE JOE BIDEN, MY ADVICE AS WEARING MY POLITICAL CONSULTANT HAT WOULD BE THAT'S GREAT, I WOULD WAIT.

BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT NOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO MEAN AS MUCH AS IF YOU DO IT SAY DURING THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

AND TIMING IS PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IN POLITICS.

SO I HOPE THIS WILL HAPPEN.

IF TRUMP IS CONVICTED, IT MAY MAKE THAT ENTRY RAMP A LITTLE SMOOTHER.

BUT REALLY, YOU DON'T NEED A CONVICTION IN ANY OF THESE TRIALS TO KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP SHOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT.

SO YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WALTER, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOESN'T HAVE ROOM FOR CHENEY?

REALLY?

A CHENEY?

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?

AND THERE IS NO REPUBLICAN PARTY TO GO BACK TO.

AND PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THAT.

THERE IS A KIND OF FALSE HOPE THAT SOMEHOW WE CAN JUST LOOK BEYOND TRUMP.

AND McCONNELL EXPRESSED A LOT OF THIS, AND A LOT OF THESE SORT OF GENTRY REPUBLICANS HAVE HELD THEIR NOSE AND SAID WELL, WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT TRUMP BEHIND US.

NO.

NO.

THE PARTY -- THERE IS A NEED FOR A CENTER RIGHT CONSERVATIVE PARTY IN AMERICA.

THAT CANNOT BE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS IT'S CURRENTLY CONSTRUED.

>> SO WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS A NEED FOR A CENTER RIGHT PARTY AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS ABANDONED THAT?

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING DOWN THE ROAD?

>> I THINK 2032 IS THE BEST HOPE THAT YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER RIGHT PARTY THAT WILL EMERGE.

I THINK PAIN IS THE BEST TEACHER IN POLITICS, ARGUABLY MAYBE THE ONLY TEACHER.

AND WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS REPUBLICANS NEED TO LOSE, AND THEY NEED TO LOSE AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND THEN OUT OF SOME SENSE OF SURVIVAL, YOU CAN SEE A SANE PARTY EMERGING.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THIS ULTIMATELY HAS TO DO WITH RACE, WALTER.

WE'RE A COUNTRY THAT'S HEADED TO BECOMING A MINORITY-MAJORITY COUNTRY.

IF YOU'RE 16 YEARS AND UNDER IN AMERICA, THE MAJORITY ARE NONWHITE.

TRUMP'S BASE IS 85% WHITE.

AND IT'S THAT REALITY THAT DRIVES SO MUCH OF REPUBLICAN PARTY'S EFFORTS TO CHANGE ELECTION LAWS AND TO SORT OF CUATE THE ELECTION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS OF GRIEVANCE AND ANTI-CORPORATE, ANTI-STATE FEELINGS.

HOW DOES ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

FIT INTO THIS EQUATION?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO WHO RFK JR. IS.

COME OCTOBER AND RFK JR. IS DEFINED AS THE CRUSADING ENVIRONMENTALIST LAWYER WHO TOOK ON BIG CORPORATIONS, THAT GUY IS GOING TO HURT JOE BIDEN.

IF RFK JR. IS DEFINED AS THIS WACKY CONSPIRACY NUT WHO HAS SAID THAT THERE IS NO SAFE VACCINE, WHICH MEANS HE IS BASICALLY THE ANTI-POLIO VACCINE CANDIDATE WHO BELIEVES CONSPIRACIES ABOUT THE CIA KILLING HIS FATHER AND HOW PROZAC LEADS TO SCHOOL SHOOTINGS, I THINK THAT GUY WILL PROBABLY HURT TRUMP MORE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS UP TO ME, I WOULD RATHER HAVE A STRAIGHT RACE WITH NO THIRD PARTY CANDIDATES.

IT'S A CLEAN ERASE.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A CHOICE BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN.

AND THERE ARE VOTERS OUT THERE WHO DON'T LIKE TRUMP, WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH BIDEN.

IF YOU GIVE THEM ANY SORT OF SOCIALLY ACCEPTED OFFRAMP, MY FEAR IS THAT THEY'LL TAKE THEM.

THE GREAT FALLACY OF A NO LABELS CANDIDATE, AND ALL THE CANDIDATES THEY TALKED ABOUT DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE HELPED ELECT DONALD TRUMP.

WHICH MAYBE IS ONE OF THE REASONS IT ULTIMATELY DIDN'T GO FORWARD.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE LINCOLN PROJECT, WE'RE OUT THERE DEFINING ROBERT KENNEDY FOR WHAT HE IS, A CONSPIRACY NUT WHO IS AN ANTI-VAXXER.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

AND I HOPE THAT'S WHO HE IS IN OCTOBER.

>> THE LAST FEW LINES OF YOUR OP-ED, LET ME QUOTE THEM TO YOU.

YOU SAY "WE SHOULD NOT NORMALIZE HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT IS THAT MR. TRUMP IS STILL A VIABLE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT."

"THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN WILL WATCH THE SPECTACLE UNFOLD ASKING HOW IS THIS GUY STILL IN THE RACE."

SO LET ME ASK YOU, HOW IS THIS GUY STILL IN THE RACE?

>> IT GOES I THINK TO A FUNDAMENTAL HOLLOWNESS THAT EXISTED WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT TRUMP BROUGHT TO LIGHT.

>> BUT ALSO THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE?

>> WELL, YOU LOOK AT AMONG DEMOCRATS, TRUMP IS NOT GETTING A LOT OF SUPPORT.

BUT, YES, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY HE IS APPEALING TO A DARK SIDE OF AMERICA.

AND WE'VE HAD OTHER CANDIDATES WHO DID THAT.

GEORGE WALLACE DID IT.

WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE HIM NOMINATED BY A MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY REJECTED GEORGE WALLACE.

REPUBLICAN PARTY EMBRACED IT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN BY THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY EMBRACING TRUMP, IT HAS GIVEN A PERMISSION STRUCTURE FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE TROUBLED BY A LOT OF TRUMP TO SAY THAT WELL, HE MUST NOT BE THAT BAD.

I THINK HE IS A LITTLE WEIRD AND ALL THIS, BUT HEY, MY GOVERNOR, MY SENATOR, THEY'RE NORMAL HUMANS.

THEY SUPPORT TRUMP.

AND THAT IS THE FAILURE OF THE PARTY NOT TO STAND UP TO TRUMP.

BUT, LOOK, IF YOU'RE GOING ASK ME IF DONALD TRUMP WINS THIS NEXT RACE, DOES IT SAY SOMETHING THAT'S VERY, VERY TROUBLING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY?

MY ANSWER OVERWHELMINGLY IS YES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT THIS WITHOUT SOUNDING ALARMIST, AND LANGUAGE IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT STRUGGLE WITH.

BUT I THINK IF DONALD TRUMP WINS THIS ELECTION, IT WILL BE THE LAST ELECTION THAT WE CAN RECOGNIZE AS A NORMAL AMERICAN ELECTION.

I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.

AS BAD AS YOU THINK THEY ARE, THEY ARE WORSE.

THEY WANT A DIFFERENT AMERICA.

AND THEY'RE OPEN ABOUT IT WHEN YOU REALLY LISTEN TO THEM.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY EMBRACE RUSSIA SO MUCH.

THEY LOOK AT RUSSIA AND THEY SAY OKAY, RUSSIA.

NO NON-WHITE PEOPLE IN POWER.

PUTIN SAYS THERE IS NO GAYS IN RUSSIA.

THERE IS NO WOMEN IN POWER.

ELECTIONS ARE PERFORMATIVE, BUT NOT DECISIVE.

THAT LOOKS PRETTY GOOD.

AND THEY EMBRACE THAT.

SO THE IDEA AMERICA IS RAPIDLY CHANGING.

NONCOLLEGE EDUCATED WHITE VOTERS ARE THE LARGEST DECLINING DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE COUNTRY.

AND THINGS ARE UNSETTLING AND TROUBLING, AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO STOP THAT.

AND THEY WILL -- THEY'RE ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF TRYING TO CHANGE ELECTIONS SO THAT THEY REDUCE THE POWER OF THOSE WHO SEE A DIFFERENT AMERICA.

AND THAT'S THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE FACILITATES THAT.

BIDEN WON BY 7 MILLION VOTES, BUT IT'S 45,000 VOTES THAT CHANGED HANDS IN JUST EXACTLY THE RIGHT PLACES, TRUMP WOULD STILL WIN.

SO I THINK IT'S A RACE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF AMERICA.

I THINK THE CLICHE THIS IS THE MOST RACE OF OUR LIFETIME HAS NEVER BEEN MORE TRUE.

>> STUART STEVENS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> SO THAT WAS TWO REPUBLICANS, TWO FORMER REPUBLICANS TALKING ABOUT THEIR PARTY TODAY.

NEXT WE TURN TO INDIA, A KEY EXAMPLE OF THE POWER OF RELIGIOUS NATIONALIST AUTHORITARIANISM WHILE ALSO BEING THE WORLD'S LARGEST DEMOCRACY.

WITH NEARLY A BILLION PEOPLE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE, THE ELECTION IS TAKING SIX WEEKS TO COMPLETE.

BUT AS CURRENT PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI SEEKS A THIRD TERM, PEOPLE FEAR A RISE IN RELIGIOUS SEGREGATION IN THE COUNTRY WHERE TENSIONS BETWEEN HINDU AND MUSLIM COMMUNITIES ARE ALREADY HIGH, AND THE PRESS FINDS ITSELF THREATENED TOO.

AS CORRESPONDENT WILL RIPLEY FOUND OUT, SOME ARE ACCUSING MODI OF USING ISLAMOPHOBIA RHETORIC ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

>> Reporter: IN VARANASI, ON INDIA'S HOLIEST RIVER THE GANGES, SMOLDERING TENSIONS RISK IGNITING A DANGEROUS CONFLICT BETWEEN INDIA'S HINDU NATIONALISTS AND THEIR MUSLIM NEIGHBORS WHO TELL US THEY NO LONGER FEEL WELCOME OR SAFE.

WE CAME HERE AS TENSIONS ARE RISING OVER THIS 17th CENTURY MOSQUE.

HINDUS SAY IT SITS ON LAND STOLEN FROM THEM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.

NOW THEY'RE FIGHTING IN COURT TO GET IT BACK.

>> MY COMMUNITY IS VERY MUCH WORRIED.

>> LONG TIME MUSLIM LEADER S.M.Y YASIN SAYS THEY'RE TRYING TO TAKE OVER THEIR MOSQUE.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO FIGHT IN COURT?

>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

NOBODY IS LISTENING TO US, NOBODY.

>> Reporter: YASEEN BLAINES POPULIST LEADER NARENDRA MODI FOR MIXING POLITICS AND RELIGION.

MODI'S POLITICAL OPPONENTS SAY HE IS MARGINALIZING THE NATION'S MORE THAN 200 MILLION MUSLIMS.

>> THEY'RE TREATING US AS SECOND CLASS CITIZEN.

>> Reporter: >> Translator: IF THEY'RE STAYING THAT THEY'RE SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, THIS MAKES ME HAPPY.

>> Reporter: A SPIRITUAL LEAD WITH VIEWS ON MUSLIM MISWOULD CONSIDER ISLAMOPHOBIA.

>> IN THE BLOOD OF A MUSLIM THERE IS A WANT TO RIOT ALL THE TIME.

>> Reporter: MUSLIM SHOPKEEPER ALI FEELS LIKE HE IS BEING PUSHED OUT.

>> Translator: ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN AT ANY POINT THAT IS THE AMOUNT OF HATE NOW.

THEY SAY LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

WHERE WILL WE GO?

WE WERE BORN HERE.

WE WILL DIE HERE.

THIS IS MY COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: A COUNTRY WHERE VIOLENCE AGAINST MUSLIMS IS ON THE RISE.

A DELHI POLICE OFFICER WAS CAUGHT ON CAMERA LAST MONTH KICKING A GROUP OF MUSLIM MEN PRAYING BY THE SIDE OF THE ROAD.

THE VIDEO WENT VIRAL.

THE OFFICERS SUSPENDED.

ANOTHER POLICE OFFICER ARRESTED FOR KILLING THREE MUSLIMS ON A TRAIN, PRAISING THE PRIME MINISTER WHILE STANDING OVER THEIR BODIES.

THE WORST WAS IN 2020.

VIOLENCE BROKE OUT BETWEEN HINDUS AND MUSLIMS IN THE CAPITAL NEW DELHI.

DOZENS OF PEOPLE DIED, MOSTLY MUSLIMS.

IT HAPPENED AROUND THE SAME TIME MODI WAS MEETING THEN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

EVEN THOUGH WHO SURVIVED ONE OF THE DARKEST CHAPTERS IN INDIA'S RECENT HISTORY WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.

NASIR ALI SAYS A HINDU MAN SHOT HIM IN THE FACE NEAR HIS HOME, THE ONE PLACE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAFE.

HE SAYS THE POLICE DID PRACTICALLY NOTHING, A CHARGE THEY DENY.

>> Translator: EVERYONE WAS FEELING UNSAFE.

WE CAN NO LONGER RELY ON THE POLICE.

>> Reporter: A COURT ORDER CALLED THEIR INVESTIGATION CASUAL, CALLOUS, AND FARCICAL.

FOUR YEARS LATER, THE CASE IS STILL ONGOING IN A HIGHER COURT.

IS THERE JUSTICE FOR MUSLIMS LIKE YOU IN INDIA TODAY?

>> Translator: NO.

OUR ONLY CRIME IS THAT WE ARE MUSLIMS.

>> Reporter: THE NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON FOR PRIME MINISTER MODI'S PARTY, THE BJP, SAYS PEOPLE OF ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.

IS THIS A HINDU FIRST GOVERNMENT?

>> INDIA BY FABRIC, BY DESIGN, BY STRUCTURE, BY CONSTITUTION IS SECULAR.

INDIA'S CONSTITUTION PROTECTS INDIAN DEMOCRACY.

NO POLITICAL PARTY IN COUNTRY IS STRONG ENOUGH TO BULLDOZE THE CONSTITUTION, TO BULLDOZE THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

>> Reporter: MUSLIM-OWNED BUILDINGS ARE LITERALLY BEING BULLDOZED IN WHAT THE GOVERNMENT CALLS A CRACKDOWN ON ILLEGAL CONSTRUCTION AND ACCUSED CRIMINALS, A BRAND OF BULLDOZER JUSTICE ALL TOO COMMON IN INDIA.

PRIME MINISTER MODI ACCUSED OF ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE WHEN HE USED A DEROGATORY TERM FOR MUSLIMS AT A RECENT ELECTION RALLY.

HE IS RUNNING FOR A RARE THIRD TERM.

WHAT IS THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN IN YOUR VIEW OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS?

>> WHAT HAPPEN, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THAT WILL BE NOT GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: MANY MUSLIMS IN MODI'S INDIA SAY IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THEIR COUNTRY ANYMORE.

>> AND LATER THIS WEEK, TUNE IN FOR MY CONVERSATION WHERE WE DIG INTO MODI AND THE BRITISH EMPIRE'S LEGACY.

TAKE A QUICK LOOK.

>> INDIA IS FUNDAMENTALLY WHEN HE WAS BORN A SECULAR NATION.

WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN IT BECAME RELIGIOUS-BASED WITH PARTITION.

UP TO TWO MILLION PEOPLE DIED.

50 MILLION PEOPLE WERE DISPLACED.

THAT'S WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN YOU TURN THAT PART OF THE WORLD INTO A MATTER OF RELIGION.

AND IT'S VERY WORRYING WHAT HE IS DOING IN INDIA, I THINK, AS A SIKH PERSON, AS SOMEONE CONSIDERED A MINORITY FAMILY.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.