May 2, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

UCLA BECOMES THE LATEST UNIVERSITY TO ALLOW LAW ENFORCEMENT TO CLEAR THE STUDENT PROTESTERS.

U.S.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS JOINS ME.

>>> THEN ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA AND THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THAT'S FUELING THESE DEMONSTRATIONS.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE ISRAELI STRIKE THAT KILLED AT LEAST 11 CHILDREN.

>>> AND -- >> THEIR EXPERIENCE WAS JUST MORE ISOLATED THAN THEIR PREDECESSORS HAVE BEEN.

THEY'VE BEEN LESS SOCIAL.

THEY'VE BEEN IN THEIR ROOMS MORE, THE GYM, CLASS.

>> DOUGLAS BELKIN TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW COVID ISOLATION COULD BE IMPACTING THE STUDENT PROTEST TODAY.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THE CONGRESS PARTY IS THE PARTY OF DECLASSIFICATION.

>> THE STAKES IN INDIA'S MASSIVE ELECTION.

MY CONVERSATION WITH JOURNALIST SATHNAM SANGHERA ABOUT INDIA TODAY AND HIS NEW BOOK ON THE LEGACY OF BRITISH COLONIALISM.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE CAMPUS PROTESTS HAVE REACHED THE WHITE HOUSE IN THAT PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN HAS NOW MADE HIS FIRST PUBLIC COMMENTS SINCE THEY BEGAN, SPEAKING RIGHT AFTER POLICE CRACKDOWNS.

>> THERE SHOULD BE NO PLACE ON ANY CAMPUS, NO PLACE IN AMERICA FOR ANTISEMITISM OR THREATS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST JEWISH STUDENTS.

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR HATE SPEECH OR VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND, WHETHER IT'S ANTISEMITISM, ISLAMOPHOBIA, OR DISCRIMINATION AGAINST AMERICANS OR PALESTINIAN AMERICANS.

I UNDERSTAND PEOPLE HAVE STRONG FEELINGS AND DEEP CONVICTIONS.

IN AMERICA, WE RESPECT THE RIGHT AND PROTECT THE RIGHT FOR THEM TO EXPRESS THAT.

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING GOES.

>> THIS MORNING, UCLA BECAME THE LATEST TO CALL IN POLICE ON ITS OWN STUDENTS, MANY OF WHOM HAD BEEN CAMPING OUT TO PROTEST THE WAR AND HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN GAZA.

LAW ENFORCEMENT CLEARING THEIR ENCAMPMENT ARRESTED AND ZIP CUFFED STUDENTS.

THE UNIVERSITY HAD CALLED FOR PEOPLE TO DISPERSE EARLIER, SAYING POLICE DEEMED THE DEMONSTRATION AN UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY.

NOW THESE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN SPREADING ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, SPEARHEADED BY COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

AND SO FAR MORE THAN 1800 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ARRESTED ON COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES SINCE APRIL 18th.

WHILE THE DEMANDS BY STUDENTS VARY SOMEWHAT, THEY ARE ALL CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE, AND MANY WANT THEIR COLLEGES TO DIVEST FROM COMPANIES THAT SUPPORT ISRAEL AND ITS WAR ON GAZA.

JUST AHEAD, WE'LL TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE SUFFERING THAT IS SPARKING THESE PROTESTS WITH A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE CHILDREN WHO ARE CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE IN GAZA.

>>> BUT FIRST, I'M JOINED BY SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS.

SENATOR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL FOR A LONG TIME ON THE WAR, ON AMERICAN POLICY, AND NOW ON THESE PROTESTS AND THE CRACKDOWN.

BUT FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU, DO YOU BELIEVE PRESIDENT BIDEN GOT IT JUST RIGHT OR WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IN HIS FIRST COMMENTS ABOUT THESE PROTESTS?

>> WELL, HE'S EXACTLY RIGHT IS THAT WE DON'T WANT PROTESTS THAT ARE VIOLENT, AND WE ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT TOLERATE ANTISEMITISM, ISLAMOPHOBIA, HOMOPHOBIA, OR ANY TYPE OF BIGOTRY.

I THINK HE IS RIGHT ON THAT.

BUT I THINK, CHRISTIANE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THESE PROTESTERS ARE OUT THERE.

AND THEY ARE OUT THERE NOTE BECAUSE THEY ARE PRO-HAMAS, THEY'RE OUT THERE BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTRAGED BY WHAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS NOW DOING IN GAZA, WHICH IS BRINGING UNBELIEVABLE -- NOT JUST TO THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATION HAMAS, BUT TO THE ENTIRE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S WHY THESE ANTI-WAR DEMONSTRATORS ARE OUT THERE.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO SEE A SITUATION CONTINUE WHERE 110,000 PALESTINIANS OUT OF 5% OF THE POPULATION HAVE BEEN KILLED OR WOUNDED.

WHERE CHILDREN NOW FACE STARVATION, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN FACE STARVATION BECAUSE ISRAEL IS REFUSING TO ALLOW HUMANITARIAN AID TO GET TO WHERE IT HAS TO GO.

WHERE TWO-THIRDS OF THE HOMES IN DAMAGED, WHERE THE ENTIRE CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, WATER, ELECTRICITY HAS BEEN ANNIHILATED, WHERE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS, EVERY UNIVERSITY IN GAZA HAS BEEN BOMBED.

SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE, AND THEY'RE OUT THERE FOR THE RIGHT REASONS, TO PROTEST U.S.-CONTINUED MILITARY AID AND MONEY TO A RIGHT-WING EXTREMIST NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT WHICH IS IN A DESTRUCTIVE WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

>> SENATOR, THE LAST TIME WE HAD YOU ON THE PROGRAM WAS A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN THERE WAS AN EFFORT -- MAYBE IT WAS SUCCESSFUL, I DON'T REMEMBER -- TO TRY TO TIE AMERICAN MILITARY AID TO CERTAIN RESPECTING OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, THE RULES OF WAR, ET CETERA.

IN THE INTERIM, THE UNITED STATES HAS PASSED A LAW WHICH PROVIDES MORE MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL ALONG WITH UKRAINE AND ET CETERA.

I REMEMBER YOU TELLING ME NOT ONE PENNY OF OUR MONEY SHOULD THEY GET, THE ISRAELIS, UNTIL THEY AGREE TO THE RULES OF THE GAME.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> WELL, WHAT HAPPENED IS, NUMBER ONE, I WAS UNABLE TO EVEN OFFER AN AMENDMENT TO THE EFFECT THAT THE UNITED STATES SHOULD NOT PROVIDE MORE MONEY FOR OFFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.

COULDN'T EVEN GET THAT AMENDMENT ON THE FLOOR.

AND NUMBER TWO, BY A VERY STRONG VOTE OF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS VOTED TO CONTINUE FUNDING NETANYAHU'S WAR MACHINE.

AND WHAT IS IRONIC TO ME, WE TALK ABOUT PROTESTERS AT COLUMBIA AND UCLA.

UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT JUST PROTESTERS.

A STRONG MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO SEE MORE U.S.

TAXPAYER DOLLARS GOING TO NETANYAHU'S DESTRUCTION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WE ALL UNDERSTAND HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THAT STARTED THE WAR, IN MY VIEW, ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO GO TO WAR AGAINST HAMAS.

THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO TO WAR IN THE WAY THEY ARE AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

AND MOST AMERICANS NOW FEEL THE SAME WAY.

>> DO YOU FEEL, SENATOR, THAT -- AND WE TALKED LAST TIME ABOUT LEVERAGE.

OBVIOUSLY AMERICA HAS MASSI LEVERAGE BECAUSE OF ITS VERY STRONG FULL-THROATED ALLIANCE WITH ISRAEL AND ALL THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT IT SENDS.

DO DO YOU THINK THE STUDENTS ARE REACTING TO THE FACT THAT THEIR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE USING ANY LEVERAGE?

>> YES, OF COURSE THEY ARE.

LOOK, IT IS ONE THING IF A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY OR A TERRIBLE WAR TAKES PLACE IN SOME PART OF THE WORLD WHERE THE UNITED STATES REALLY HAS NO INVOLVEMENT.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN GAZA.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS HISTORICALLY AND IS RIGHT NOW THE LEGISLATION THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OVER $19 BILLION WAR DOLLARS GOING TO ISRAEL, INCLUDING $10 BILLION OF UNVETTED MILLER THE AID.

SO OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY TO NETANYAHU, GUESS WHAT?

YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANOTHER NICKEL UNLESS YOU LET HUMANITARIAN AID GO IN, UNLESS YOU STOP THE IMMINENT FAMINE WHICH WE ARE SEEING, UNLESS WE MOVE TOWARD A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

WHEN YOU ARE PAYING THE BILLS, YOU CALL THE TUNES.

HAS THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT DONE THAT?

NO, IT HAS NOT.

AND I THINK STUDENTS AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS VERY WRONG.

>> AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS A MASTER OF THE POLITICAL GAME, SEIZING WHATEVER POLITICAL MOMENT HE CAN.

AND HE IN ENGLISH DIRECTLY ADDRESSED THE AMERICAN STUDENTS ON CAMPUSES AND DESCRIBED IN HIS VIEW WHAT THESE PROTESTS WERE.

I'M GOING PLAY THAT FOR A MOMENT SO YOU CAN LISTEN.

>> WHAT'S HAPPENING IN AMERICA'S COLLEGE CAMPUSES IS HORRIFIC.

ANTISEMITIC MOBS HAVE TAKEN OVER LEADING UNIVERSITIES.

THEY CALL FOR THE ANNIHILATION OF ISRAEL.

THEY ATTACK JEWISH STUDENTS.

THEY ATTACK JEWISH FACULTY.

THIS IS REMINISCENT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN GERMAN UNIVERSITIES IN THE 1930s.

>> SENATOR, YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEP SOME OTHERS SAY THE SAME THING, EVEN IN THE MEDIA, HARKENING BACK TO THE 1930s EUROPE.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THAT'S AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING ON AMERICAN CAMPUSES.

>> WELL, I THINK -- LOOK, I AM JEWISH.

MY FAMILY WAS SLAUGHTERED BY HITLER.

I AM VERY SENSITIVE TO ANTISEMITISM, AS I HOPE ALL AMERICANS ARE, AND WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO ANTISEMITISM, NOT ONLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, BUT ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY.

BUT WHAT NETANYAHU IS DOING -- AND YOU'RE RIGHT, HE IS A VERY CRAFTY POLITICIAN.

IF THE WHOLE WORLD, CHRISTIANE, IS CONDEMNING YOUR WAR POLICIES, WHICH HAVE NOW KILLED OR INJURED 5% OF THE PEOPLE IN PALESTINE, HAVE DESTROYED THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THE WORLD WORLD SAYS WHAT ARE YOU DOING, WHAT HE HAS DONE IS DEFLECT ATTENTION IN THE AMERICAN MEDIA BY AND LARGE HAS FALLEN FOR IT BY SAYING ANY PROTEST AGAINST ISRAEL IS ANTISEMITIC.

IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED OR INJURED ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN, NOT HAMAS PARTICIPANTS, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THAT'S ANTISEMITIC.

IF YOU'RE TALK ABOUT 70% OF THE HOUSING DAMAGED, THAT'S ANTISEMITIC.

IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS ARE WORRIED ABOUT FAMINE, CHILDREN RIGHT NOW TODAY IN GAZA ARE DYING OF MALNUTRITION.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, YOU'RE ANTISEMITIC.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING FALL FOR THAT.

NETANYAHU IS INSULTING THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

HE HAS GOT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF HIS RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS, AND BY THE WAY RACIST GOVERNMENT.

AND CLAIMING THAT EVERYBODY WAS CRITICAL OF HIM IS ANTISEMITIC IS REALLY QUITE DISGRACEFUL.

>> SO SENATOR, WHY DO YOU THINK THE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS CALLED IN THE POLICE?

>> WELL, I'LL LET THE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS ANSWER THAT.

I WOULD SIMPLY SAY SOME SCHOOLS, I THINK BROWN UNIVERSITY COMING TO MIND AND OTHERS HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING.

THEY'VE RESPECTED THE RIGHTS OF STUDENTS TO PROTEST, TO DEMONSTRATE, AND THEY ARE COMING UP WITH REASONABLE SOLUTIONS.

>> I -- YOU GAVE A SPEECH ON THE SENATE FLOOR LAST NIGHT, AND I POSTED IT.

AND IT WAS ESSENTIALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT LESSON ON HISTORY, ON PROTESTS AND THE ANTISEMITISM THAT YOU'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WHAT CONSTITUTES IT AND WHAT DOESN'T.

TELL ME, IN YOUR VIEW, WHERE DO THESE PROTESTS FIT IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN STUDENT PROTESTS?

>> LOOK, I MUST TELL YOU THAT AS A YOUNG MAN, I WAS INVOLVED IN CIVIL RIGHTS DEMONSTRATION.

I WAS ARRESTED IN TAKING OVER THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO.

BECAUSE THERE WAS RACISM AND SEGREGATION GOING ON AT THAT TIME.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN PROTESTS, INCIDENTS, AND DEMONSTRATIONS, WE WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THE PROGRESS WE HAVE MADE IN THIS COUNTRY IN COMBATTING RACISM AND ENDING THE APARTHEID FORM OF GOVERNMENT THAT EXISTED IN MANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, MOSTLY WOMEN COMING OUT ON TO THE STREETS AND SAYING THAT THEY ARE SICK AND TIRED OF BEING SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, THEY WANT A RIGHT TO CONTROL THEIR OWN BODIES, WE WOULD NOT HAVE MADE PROGRESS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

IF WE HAD NOT HAD DEMONSTRATIONS SAYING THAT WE'VE GOT TO END HOMOPHOBIA IN AMERICA, WE WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THE PROGRESS WE'VE MADE.

DEMONSTRATIONS IS WHAT -- AND THE RIGHT TO DISSENT, THE RIGHT TO PROTEST, THAT IS WHAT THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES IS ALL ABOUT.

THAT'S WHAT, IN FACT, MAKES YOU A FREE COUNTRY.

BEING A FREE COUNTRY MEANS THAT SOMEBODY GOES OUT AND DETERIORATES, YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THEM, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUTOCRACY AND DICTATORSHIP AND A FREE COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU -- BECAUSE THIS DEFINITION, WHERE DOES THE LINE GET CROSSED BETWEEN ANTISEMITISM AND CRITICIZING A GOVERNMENT POLICY.

ON THIS PROGRAM LAST NIGHT, OUR COLLEAGUES AT PBS TALKED TO KENNETH STERN.

HE WAS THE PERSON WHO LED THE DRAFTING OF THE BILL THAT WOULD CODIFY THIS DEFINITION FOR THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE.

IT IS THE DEFINITION THAT STANDS TO THIS DAY, AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> I JEALOUSLY GUARDED THE TERM ANTISEMITISM TO HAVE A STING, IT HAS TO BE USED ONLY IN THE CLEAREST CASES.

I ALWAYS DEFAULT.

NOW THERE IS A PUSH TO MAKE IT ALMOST UBIQUITOUS.

AND WHEN EVERYTHING BECOMES ANTISEMITIC, NOTHING BECOMES ANTISEMITIC, AND THAT MAKES IT HARDER TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

>> I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT, GIVEN THE FACT IT'S BEEN REALLY POLITICIZED AND ALSO TO BILLS AND NEW LAWS AND THINGS ARE PASSING THROUGH CONGRESS, AND THE REPUBLICANS ARE USING IT A LOT.

>> WELL, ALL I WOULD SAY IS ANTISEMITISM IS A VILE, A VILE AND DISGUSTING IDEOLOGY, WHICH AS EVERYBODY KNOWS IN THE LAST 100 YEARS ALONE HAS LED TO THE DEATHS OF MANY, MANY, MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM IN EVERY WAY THAT WE CAN.

BUT FOR ANYBODY TO SUGGEST THAT WE CANNOT BE CRITICAL OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL OR THE GOVERNMENT OF ITALY OR THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND, FOR WHATEVER REASON IS NOT WHAT DEMOCRACY IS ABOUT.

SO I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE -- NOT EVERYBODY AGREES WITH ME -- THAT THE WAR POLICIES OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT ARE A DISASTER.

THEY'RE CAUSING UNPRECEDENTED HARM.

THEY'RE IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND ABSOLUTELY IN VIOLATION OF AMERICAN LAW, BY THE WAY.

BUT I THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICAL -- THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICAL OF WHAT NETANYAHU IS DOING ARE ANTISEMITIC THAT IS NONSENSE, AND THAT IS A VERY, VERY DANGEROUS LINE TO CROSS IN TERMS OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> AND FOR OUR GENERATION WHO GREW UP IN THE ERA OF NEVER AGAIN, AND ARE VERY, VERY COMMITTED TO THAT, I THINK IT'S REALLY TOUGH WHEN WE SEE THIS WORD "WEAPONIZED" AND MAYBE LOSE ITS STING AND ITS IMPORTANCE AS KENNETH STERN WARNS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO BIDEN AND HIS CAMPAIGN?

WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL OF THIS IS GOING TO LEAD?

IT'S ALSO ABOUT AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

>> WELL, IN TERMS OF HIS CAMPAIGN, I AM THINKING BACK, AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE MAKING THIS REFERENCE, BUT THIS MAY BE BIDEN'S VIETNAM.

LYNDON JOHNSON IN MANY RESPECTS WAS A VERY, VERY GOOD PRESIDENT, DOMESTICALLY.

BROUGHT FORWARD SOME MAJOR PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

HE CHOSE NOT TO RUN IN '68 BECAUSE OF OPPOSITION TO HIS VIEWS ON VIETNAM.

AND I WORRY VERY MUCH THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS PUTTING HIMSELF IN A POSITION WHERE HE HAS ALIENATED NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE, BUT A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATIC BASE IN TERMS OF HIS VIEWS ON ISRAEL AND THIS WAR.

SO I WOULD HOPE VERY MUCH THAT FROM CERTAINLY A POLICY POINT OF VIEW, FROM A MORAL POINT OF VIEW, THE PRESIDENT STOPS GIVING A BLANK CHECK TO NETANYAHU.

AND I WOULD HOPE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND FROM A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW THIS HAS NOT BEEN HELPFUL.

QUITE THE CONTRARY.

>> SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND NOW, A REMINDER, AS WE SAID, OF WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF THESE PROTESTS, THE SUFFERING AND THE KILLING OF GAZANS IN THIS DEVASTATING WAR.

THE IDF IS CONTINUING ITS AIR STRIKES ON TARGETS IN THE ENCLAVE.

13,000 CHILDREN HAVE DIED SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, AND PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS SAY TWO MORE, A 4-YEAR-OLD BOY AND HIS SISTER WERE KILLED AT THIS REFUGEE CAMP, THE AL SHABOURA CAMP TWO WEEKS AGO JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTED ABOUT A STRIKE ON A DIFFERENT REFUGEE CAMP THAT KILLED AT LEAST TEN CHILDREN.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY STILL HASN'T TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ATTACK, AND NOW JEREMY HAS THIS UPDATE.

AND A REMINDER THAT SOME OF WHAT WE'LLEE IS INDEED SHOCKING.

[ CRYING ] >> Reporter: THIS GRAINY HOME VIDEO IS THE CLOSEST MONA OUDATALA WILL GET TO SEEING HER 10-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER.

A STACK OF SCHOOL CERTIFICATES, A WARDROBE OF HER FAVORITE CLOTHES, THE PERFUME SHE USED TO WEAR, ALL THAT REMAINS OF THE DAUGHTER MONA POURED EVERYTHING INTO.

"THERE IS NO NOW.

EVERY TIME SHE CAME IN, SHE CAME AND SAID MOM, I WOULD SAY MY SOUL, MY SOUL, MY SHOULDER IS GONE."

SHAHED IS ONE OF TEN CHILDREN KILLED WHEN AN AIR STRIKE HIT THE CROWDED STREET IN THE REFUGEE CAMP WHERE SHE WAS PLAYING WITH HER FRIENDS.

HER PINK PANTS IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS AMONG THE SMALL BODIES SPLAYED AROUND A FOOS BALL TEAM IN THE CHAOTIC AFTERMATH.

TWO WEEKS LATER, THE ISRAELI MILITARY STILL WON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE STRIKE THAT KILLED HER.

CNN PROVIDED THE IDF WITH THE COORDINATES AND TIME OF THE ATTACK BASED ON METADATA FROM TWO DIFFERENT PHONES IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH.

THE IDF SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE A RECORD OF THAT STRIKE.

THEY SAID THEY CARRIED OUT A STRIKE AT A DIFFERENT TIME THAN DESCRIBED, AND THAT THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE AS DESCRIBED IN THE QUERY IS NOT KNOWN TO THE IDF.

THE IDF MAKES GREAT EFFORTS TO MITIGATE HARM TO THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FROM AREAS WHERE STRIKES ARE BEING CARRIED OUT.

EVIDENCE RECOVERED AND DOCUMENTED BY CNN AT THE SCENE OF THE STRIKE PAINTS A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE OF ISRAELI MILITARY RESPONSIBILITY.

THIS CIRCUIT BOARD AND BITS OF SHRAPNEL, WALLS AND SHOP STEPS DISTINCTIVELY POCKMARKED, AND A SMALL CRATER A BARELY FOOT WIDE, ALL POINTING THREE MUNITIONS EXPERTS TO THE SAME CONCLUSION.

THE CARNAGE WAS LIKELY CAUSED BAY PRECISION-GUIDED MUNITION DEPLOYED BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

>> I'VE SEEN THESE STRIKES SO MANY TIMES.

THERE IS A RELATIVELY SMALL CRATER IN THE ROAD.

THERE IS NO LARGE SHRAPNEL HOLES OR FRAGMENTATION HOLES WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY SAY A MORTAR ROUND OR ARTILLERY ROUND.

>> SO IN YOUR VIEW, THIS STRIKE WAS CAUSE BESIDE APRECISION-GUIDED DRONE-FIRED MISSILE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS AN ISRAELI MUNITION.

THE LOCAL MILITIAS, THE LOCAL FORCES DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING WITH THIS AMOUNT OF SOPHISTICATION.

>> Reporter: BEFORE CARRYING OUT THE STRIKE, ISRAELI DRONES WOULD HAVE SURVEILLED THE AL MAGHAZI REFUGEE CAMP FROM ABOVE.

SECONDS LATER, THE MISSILE HITS THE STREET BELOW, LAND MANAGE THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, JUST A FEW FEET AWAY FROM THE FOOS BALL TABLE WHERE SHAHED AND HER FRIENDS WERE PLAYING THAT DAY, DELIVERING CERTAIN DEATH.

AGAINST ALL ODDS, THESE CHILDREN HAVE RETURNED TO PLAY AT THE VERY SAME FOOSBALL TABLE, INCLUDING SOME OF SHAHED'S FRIENDS.

"I MISS HER A LOT," SALMA SAYS, WEARING A NECKLACE SHAHED MADE HER.

SHE SAYS SHE WAS NEARLY KILLED WITH HER FRIENDS GOING HOME MOMENTS BEFORE THE STRIKE TO DRINK WATER.

OTHERS WERE NOT AS LUCKY.

8-YEAR-OLD AHMED IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE, BLEEDING FROM HIS BRAIN, HIS SKULL FRACTURED.

HIS CHANCES OF SURVIVING ARE SLIM, HIS DOCTOR EXPLAINS.

HE IS FIGHTING NOT TO BECOME THE 11th CHILD KILLED IN THAT SAME STRIKE.

>> BUT WE REGRET TO REPORT THAT AHMED HAS DIED OF HIS WOUNDS THIS MORNING.

HE WAS 8 YEARS OLD, AND HE IS THE 11th CHILD KILLED IN THAT ONE ISRAELI STRIKE.

ALMOST 14,000 CHILDREN ARE BEING KILLED IN THIS WAR ON GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th, THE DATE THAT HAMAS STORMED ISRAEL, KILLING 1200 PEOPLE AND TAKING HUNDREDS HOSTAGE.

THERE ARE STILL MORE THAN 100 LEFT INSIDE GAZA, AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT WITH HAMAS EITHER FOR A CEASEFIRE OR FOR THE RELEASE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ISRAELI FAMILIES ARE SO DESPERATE TO HAVE HOME.

>>> NOW THE PROTEST MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES SWEEPING THROUGH CAMPUSES IS JUST WEEKS BEFORE GRADUATION.

THIS YEAR'S COLLEGE SENIORS ARE MOSTLY THE SAME GROUP WHOSE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION WAS DISRUPTED BY THE COVID PANDEMIC.

"WALL STREET JOURNAL" HIGHER EDUCATION REPORTER DOUGLAS BELKIN TALKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES FACING THESE STUDENTS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

DOUGLAS BELKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE "THEY ENTERED COLLEGE ISOLATION AND LEAVE AMID PROTESTS, THE CLASS THAT MISSED OUT ON FUN."

TELL ME WHAT IT IS THAT CHARACTERIZES THESE STUDENTS, BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS ANOTHER SORT OF RIPPLE EFFECT OF THE PANDEMIC THAT WE ARE ALL COLLECTIVELY WITNESSING.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

THEIR EXPERIENCE WAS JUST MORE ISOLATED THAN THEIR PREDECESSORS HAVE BEEN.

THEY'VE BEEN LESS SOCIAL.

THEY'VE BEEN IN THEIR DORM ROOMS MORE, IN THE GYM LESS, IN THE CAFETERIA LESS, IN THE QUAD LESS, IN CLASS IN PERSON LESS.

THEY'RE STUDYING WITH THEIR FRIENDS LESS.

THEY'RE NOT JOINING CLUBS TO THE SAME DEGREES.

THEY'RE JUST NOT AS ENGAGED WITH ONE ANOTHER AS STUDENTS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES WERE BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

>> TELL ME, WHO ARE THESE STUDENTS DEMOGRAPHICALLY?

WHAT HAVE THEY EXPERIENCED OVER THESE PAST FOUR YEARS?

>> SO THE KIDS WHO ARE GRADUATING NOW, IF THEY WENT THROUGH IN FOUR YEARS, WERE SENIORS WHEN THE PANDEMIC LANDED.

AND A LOT OF THEM DID NOT HAVE GRADUATION CEREMONIES AT THEIR HIGH SCHOOL.

THEY SPENT THEIR SUMMER ISOLATED.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE FRESHMEN ORIENTATION IN PERSON, AND THEY BEGAN COLLEGE, A LOT OF THEM EITHER ONLINE OR IN THEIR DORM ROOMS ISOLATED FROM ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE OF FEAR OF COVID.

THEY WERE TOLD WHEN THEY WALKED AROUND CAMPUS TO STAY SIX FEET APART FROM ONE ANOTHER AND TO CONSTANTLY WEAR MASKS.

SO THESE KIDS ARE REALLY ENDURED THE BRUNT OF COVID WITH REGARD TO ISOLATION.

>> WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE EFFECTS ON CAMPUSES OVER THAT FIRST YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS WHEN THESE STUDENTS WERE THERE.

BUT WHAT ARE THE KIND OF LONGER EFFECTS THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO WHAT YOU AND I THINK OF AS OLD MEN WHAT COLLEGE WAS LIKE WHEN WE WENT?

>> WELL, THESE KIDS, THERE IS A LOT OF INTERESTING DATA THAT IS SORT OF BEING SURFACED NOW LOOKING AT THEIR BEHAVIOR.

SO THERE ARE COMPANIES THAT TRACK -- THEY DON'T LIKE THAT WORD, BUT THEY TRACK STUDENTS USING THEIR CELL PHONE TO GET A SENSE OF HOW THE CAMPUSES ARE USED.

AND THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

AND IF YOU COMPARE THE MOVEMENTS THE STUDENTS HAD ON CAMPUS PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC TO TODAY, THEY JUST DON'T MOVE AS MUCH, AND THEY DON'T GO TO THE SAME PLACES.

THERAPEUTIC NOT AROUND EACH OTHER AS MUCH.

SO THAT'S I THINK THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ISSUE.

THE OTHER ONE IS MAYBE WE'LL GET TO THIS LATER, BUT THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND THE SURVEYS THAT ARE DESIGNATING, TRYING TO ASCERTAIN HOW THEY FEEL AND LEVELS OF ANXIETY IS SIGNIFICANTLY RAISED.

THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR A WHILE.

BUT IT DID AMPLIFY IN SOME CASES OVER THE PANDEMIC.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH STATUS.

WHERE ARE WE GETTING THE INFORMATION?

WHICH STUDENTS COHORTS, IF ANY ARE AFFECTED MOST OR LEAST?

>> YES, SO MENTAL HEALTH ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES IS TRACKED VERY CLOSELY.

IT MATTERS A LOT FOR SOME PRACTICAL REASONS AND LESS PRACTICAL REASONS.

THE ONE THING, IF STUDENTS ARE DEPRESSED, IF THEY'RE NOT ENGAGED IN COLLEGE, THEY'RE JUST LESS LIKELY TO GRADUATE.

ENGAGEMENT MATTERS A LOT.

MENTAL HEALTH MATTERS A LOT.

IF KIDS ARE DEPRESSED, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO TO CLASS AND FINISH.

THIS IMPACTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE UNIVERSITIES.

SO THAT'S IN THEIR INTERESTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE TAKING CARE OF THE KIDS WHO ARE THERE.

AND AROUND 2012, WE SAW DECLINING MENTAL HEALTH AND RAISING ANXIETY, AND IN DEPRESSION AROUND THE TIMES THAT THE CELL PHONES, THE POCKET CELL PHONES BECAME UBIQUITOUS.

THAT TREND CONTINUED INTO THE PANDEMIC, BUT THE RELIANCE ON TECHNOLOGY DURING THE PANDEMIC SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY STUCK.

SO THE KIDS ARE MORE INCLINED TO WANT TO BE ON THEIR PHONES, ON THEIR COMPUTER SCREENS NOW THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

SO, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY HAVE AN OPTION OF TAKING A CLASS ONLINE IN YOUR DORM ROOM OR GO TO THE CLASS.

A LOT OF KIDS ARE OPTING TO JUST SIT IN THEIR DORM ROOM AND TAKE A CLASS.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS THEY'RE MORE ISOLATED AND THEY'RE AVOIDING THE ANXIETY THAT COMES FROM SOCIAL INTERACTIONS THAT A LOT OF THEM FEAR CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MEASURED IN SOME WAY ON AN ANNUAL BASIS?

ARE THERE UNIVERSITIES THAT KIND OF TAKE SURVEYS AS FRESHMEN COME IN ABOUT WHAT THEIR FEELINGS WERE BEFORE THEY GOT TO COLLEGE OR THEIR ANNUAL SURVEYS THAT MEASURE SPECIFIC KINDS OF, YOU KNOW, OUTLOOKS THAT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE ON LIFE?

>> YEAH.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF SURVEYS, A LOT OF INSTRUMENTS NATIONAL THAT TRY TO MEASURE THIS STUFF.

THERE IS ONE CALLED THE HEALTHY MIND SURVEY OUT OF MICHIGAN.

THERE IS A NUMBER OF UNIVERSITIES CONNECTED TO IT.

BUT MICHIGAN IS ONE.

AND WHAT THAT SURVEY FOUND IS ANXIETY IS UP.

SOCIAL ANXIETY IS UP.

KIDS WHO BELIEVE THEY'VE BEEN TRAUMATIZED DOUBLED FROM 5% TO 10% OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

THE LEVEL OF KIDS WHO HAVE TRIED TO COMMIT SUICIDE IS UP A LITTLE BIT.

THE NET LEVEL OF KIDS WITH SUICIDAL IDEATION IS ONE IN SEVEN OF KIDS WHO THOUGHT ABOUT SUICIDE THE PAST YEAR.

SO THE NUMBERS ARE SOBER.

>> THOSE ARE INTENSE NUMBERS.

WHAT ARE UNIVERSITIES DOING ABOUT THIS, IF THEY KNOW THAT THE FRESHMAN COMING INTO THEIR COLLEGE ARE ALREADY MORE ANXIOUS AND THEY'RE TELLING THE UNIVERSITIES THAT THEIR LEVELS OF SELF-HARM AND SUICIDAL IDEATION ARE UP.

WHAT CAN THE UNIVERSITY DO?

WHAT IS A UNIVERSITY DOING?

>> SO THEY'RE REALLY ATTACKING THIS ISSUE BECAUSE IT'S SO IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, MOST PROFESSORS NOW HAVE HAD MENTAL HEALTH FIRST AID TRAINING SO THAT THEY CAN RECOGNIZE IF STUDENTS ARE DEPRESSED, IF THEY ARE FEARFUL FOR THEM.

THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED THE RED FOLDER THAT PROFESSORS PASS AROUND THAT SORT OF KEEPS TABS ON STUDENTS AND THE ONES THEY BELIEVE ARE STRUGGLING, YOU KNOW.

IT GIVES THEM OPTIONS ABOUT HOW TO TALK TO THEM, TO TREAT THEM.

SO PROFESSORS ARE SORT OF THE FIRST LINE.

THAT WASN'T HAPPENING A FEW YEARS AGO.

THAT'S ONE GOOD THING.

THERE ARE CARE TEAMS WHO TRY TO IDENTIFY STUDENTS WHO ARE STRUGGLING.

WE SPOKE TO FOLKS AT TULANE THAT HAVE FAILURE TALES.

KIDS ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT FAILING.

SO THEY GO INTO COMMUNITY, AND THEY TELL STORIES ABOUT THINGS THAT THEY BLEW.

AND THE IDEA IS TO SORT OF TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF EACH OTHER SO THEY COME TO THE SENSE THAT IT'S OKAY TO SCREW THINGS UP.

THAT'S PART OF GROWING UP, PART OF LIFE.

THEY'RE ENCOURAGING KIDS TO JOIN DIFFERENT GROUPS.

WHAT'S FASCINATING ABOUT IT IS THERE'S I THINK A SENSE THAT THE RETURN TO NORMAL IS BEYOND THE CAJOLING OF THE ADMINISTRATORS AND THE PROFESSORS.

THE KIDS SORT OF HAVE TO FIND THEIR OWN FOOTING.

AND NO ONE IS REALLY SURE WHERE THAT NEW LEVEL SET WILL BE.

>> YOU MANAGED TO FIND A RESIDENT ASSISTANT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND, SOMETHING THAT I WAS SEVERAL YEARS AGO, AND WHAT WAS STUNNING ABOUT THIS ANECDOTE IS THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO LURE YOUNG PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR DORM ROOMS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN COLLEGE STARTED FOR ME, IT WAS THE ABSOLUTE ANTITHESIS OF THAT.

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME FOR MOST STUDENTS LIVING AWAY FROM HOME.

THE DOORS KEPT SWINGING OPEN AND CLOSED.

YOU WOULD BE GOING IN AND OUT OF EVERYBODY ELSE'S ROOMS.

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THAT KIND OF SOCIAL INTERACTION AND MINGLING THAT FOR SO MANY GENERATIONS BEFORE, COLLEGE WAS SO CRUCIAL FOR?

>> SO THERE IS A CYCLE THAT'S PICKING UP SPEED.

AND THAT'S SORT OF THE CENTER OF IT.

SO IF YOU SPENT YOUR SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL, OR SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL AND FRESHMAN YEAR OF COLLEGE AND MAYBE EVEN PART OF YOUR SOPHOMORE OF COLLEGE IN YOUR DORM ROOM TAKING CLASSES ONLINE AND BEING TOLD TO ISOLATE, THEN THE SKILLS THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DEVELOPED AND THAT YOU DEVELOPED AS A YOUNG MAN TO INTERACT WITH YOUR PEERS ARE A LITTLE BIT RETARDED.

THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY TAKE ROOT.

AND SO WHEN IT'S TIME TO CONNECT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, THERE IS AN ANXIETY ATTACHED TO THAT NOW.

SO ONE WAY TO AVOID THAT ANXIETY IS TO JUST NOT DEAL WITH IT, SIT IN YOUR ROOM, TAKE A CLASS ONLINE WHERE YOU'RE COMFORTABLE, WHERE YOU CAN CONTROL YOUR SPACE.

YOU CAN SIT IN YOUR SWEAT PANTS.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING CALLED ON BY A PROFESSOR.

IF YOU DO GO TO CLASS, GENERALLY SPEAKING, KIDS AREN'T AS PREPARED.

AND THEY'RE LESS LIKELY TO RAISE THEIR HAND IN DEBATE.

THEY'RE UNNERVED ABOUT BEING PART OF A DISCUSSION AND BEING CALLED OUT.

THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES I THINK OF SAYING THE WRONG THING.

THIS HAS BEEN AROUND PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC.

BUT THESE ARE ALL ISSUES THAT ARE SORT OF AGGREGATING AND FORCING SOME KIDS TO RETREAT.

>> DOES THAT CLIMATE POST PANDEMIC CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITUATION ON CERTAIN COLLEGE CAMPUSES TODAY WHERE RIGHT NOW THERE ARE PROTESTS THAT ARE GOING ON, SOME OF THE COLLEGES HAVE DECIDED TO POSTPONE OR CANCEL THEIR GRADUATIONS.

BUT THE ACRIMONY BETWEEN STUDENTS AND WHAT I SEE IS A LOT OF STUDENTS DISENGAGING FROM IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN MY OPINION SAY WELL, YOU'RE GOING LEARN FROM SOMEBODY ELSE IF YOU'RE ABLE TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT.

IT.

BUT ACCORDING TO YOUR ARTICLE, MAYBE SOME KIDS ARE NOT.

>> THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENING WITH THOSE PROTESTS.

IT'S BEEN FASCINATING TO INTERVIEW KIDS WHY THEY'RE A PART OF THEM AND ASK WHY THEY'RE THERE AND WHAT THEY KNOW.

I THINK YOU PUT YOUR FING OTHER ABOUT A REAL ISSUE.

PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

I THINK THAT'S ALWAYS AN ISSUE WHEN YOU HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE YOU CARE ABOUT.

THERE IS NOT A CONVERSATION HAPPENING.

I THINK THERE IS ALSO AN ATTRACTION FOR SOME STUDENTS TO JOIN THESE PROTESTS BECAUSE THEY CAN STAND SIDE BY SIDE AND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER AND GET A SENSE OF COMMUNITY THAT THEY REALLY HAVEN'T HAD SINCE THEY'VE BEEN IN COLLEGE.

AND THAT FEELS GOOD.

IT FEELS GOOD TO CONNECT WITH ONE ANOTHER, TO BE KIND OF -- IT'S ALMOST EVERYBODY IS SAYING THE SAME THING, BELIEVING THE SAME THING.

SO IT'S ALMOST A LOW STAKES SITUATION IF YOU FOLLOW THE SCRIPT.

NOT TO DEMEAN WHAT THESE KIDS ARE DOING OR BELIEVING IN.

BUT THERE IS A SENSE I THINK OF COMMUNITY THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

ON THE FLIP SIDE, IT'S A REALLY POLARIZING ISSUE.

YOU'VE GOT STUDENTS THAT HAVEN'T MADE THE CONNECTIONS ON CAMPUS THAT THEY WOULD HAVE OVER TIME, AND THEY'RE ANGERING ONE ANOTHER, AND THEY'RE LOSING FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY POSTED A MEME OR MESSAGE THAT THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T AGREE WITH.

WE SPOKE TO A NUMBER OF KIDS WHO SAY THEY'RE JUST ALIENATED FROM FRIENDS.

I THINK THIS IS PARTICULARLY SHARP AMONG A LOT OF THE JEWISH STUDENTS ON CAMPUS.

>> ARE THERE THINGS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AS WE WATCH THIS WAVE OF COLLEGE PROTESTS PLAY OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN TERMS OF WHAT THE LONG-TERM IMPACTS COULD BE ON STUDENTS, OR PERHAPS HOW COLLEGES ARE RESPONDING TO THESE PROTESTS?

>> THERE IS THIS TENSION BETWEEN THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH AND THE TITLE 6 RULE THAT SAYS YOU'RE ENTITLED TO AN EDUCATION FREE OF HARASSMENT.

THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE TO TRY TO KEEP STUDENTS SAFE.

BUT HOW THEY DO THAT IS REALLY NOT BEEN ADJUDICATED.

SO WE'RE IN THIS LEGAL NO-MAN'S LAND WHEN THE UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT TRIES SO FIGURE OUT HOW TO HANDLE PROTESTS.

THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO CHANGE.

SOME OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS CASES THAT THEY'RE HEARING NOW ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE CHALLENGED WHEN THEY COME OUT.

THEY'LL GO COURT AND SOME JUDGE SOMEWHERE IS GOING TO SAY THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO WHEN A PROTEST HAPPENS.

THERE IS GOING TO BE MORE GUIDANCE.

SO I THINK THAT GOING FORWARD, THERE WILL BE LESS LATITUDE FOR UNIVERSITIES TO DETERMINE HOW TO RESPOND.

>> YOU HAD A QUOTE IN THERE, "THE PANDEMIC BRUISED THE PSYCHE OF A GENERATION.

THE POLITICS SEARED IT."

EXPLAIN HOW TODAY'S POLITICAL CLIMATE IS SHAPING THIS GENERATION.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SPEAK TO A KID WHO IS 21 YEARS OLD NOW, THEY'LL RECITE A LITANY OF THE THINGS THEY WERE BORN INTO, RIGHT.

SO THEY CAME ALONG NOT LONG AFTER 9/11.

THEY DEALT WITH THE GREAT RECESSION.

AND THEY WERE AROUND FOR THE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS.

THAT'S BEEN PART OF THEIR NORM, THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY POLARIZED THE COUNTRY AND OBVIOUSLY WE'RE HEADING IN THAT DIRECTION BEFORE.

THE PANDEMIC WAS MASSIVE.

SO THEY CAME IN TO COLLEGE FEELING I THINK ON THEIR BACK FOOT.

THIS IS BY AND LARGE THEY'RE A LITTLE BIT LESS RISK-TAKING THAN PRIOR GENERATIONS HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THEY'VE SEEN THE DOWNSIDE OF THINGS THAT CAN GO WRONG.

THEY'VE SEEN CHAOS.

EVERY GENERATION HAS THEIR OWN CROSS TO BEAR.

YOU KNOW, YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN COLLEGE DURING VIETNAM, AND THEY SORT OF SCOFF AT THE NOTION THAT THESE KIDS HAD IT ROUGH.

BUT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE KIDS ON CAMPUS, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'VE HAD A PRETTY ROUGH FIRST COUPLE OF DECADES.

>> YOU ALSO HAVE WRITTEN BEYOND THE HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM KIND OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REST OF SOCIETY AS THESE WAVES OF CLASSES COME INTO THE WORKFORCE.

WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES THAT EMPLOYERS SEE FROM THE GENERATIONS I GUESS REALLY MID PANDEMIC ONWARD THAT HAVE COME INTO THE WORKFORCE?

THESE ARE NOT JUST TRENDS FROM THE PANDEMIC, BUT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACCELERATED AS YOU POINT OUT.

>> THE EMPLOYERS ARE DEING A DECLINE IN THE CAPACITY, IN THE COMPETENCY OF KIDS COMING OUT OF COLLEGE.

AND WE'RE JUST BEGINNING TO SEE THIS NOW.

THERE IS A LOT OF DATA COMING OUT OF HIGH SCHOOLS AND ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS ABOUT LEARNING LOSS THAT HAPPENED.

BUT WHEN IN COLLEGE, WHAT WE'RE SEEING ARE KIDS WHO ARE GRADUATING AND PASSING LICENSING EXAMS LIKE NURSING OR ENGINEERING AT LOWER RATES.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME CAPACITY.

ONCE YOU DO PASS, THERE ARE OFTEN LOWER SCORES.

THE SOCIAL ADROITNESS OF STUDENTS HAS DECLINED.

YOU SEE A LOT OF KIDS WHO DON'T MAKE EYE CONTACT WHEN THEY'RE IN A RETAIL SPOT, WORKING A JOB LIKE THAT.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN THAT THIS GENERATION THAT KNOWS LESS AND IS LESS INCLINED TO ASK TO LEARN.

AND OF COURSE THE WHOLE ISSUE WITH SORT OF BEING STUCK ON THEIR PHONE AND NOT COMMUNICATING AND CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE HAS BEEN A CONCERN FOR A DECADE.

>> IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT YOU HAVE FROM THE CONVERSATIONS YOU'VE HAD THAT A COLLEGE EXPERIENCE WILL RETURN TO WHAT WE MIGHT HAVE GONE THROUGH?

NOT THAT EVERYTHING WE WENT THROUGH IS ALL ROSES, BUT THAT WE WOULD POSSIBLY SEE GREATER FACE-TO-FACE INTERACTION AGAIN AND, YOU KNOW, AVOID SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THIS GENERATION OVER THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS HAVE DEALT WITH ON CAMPUSES?

>> THE COLLEGE MODEL IS CERTAINLY FRAYING.

AND THERE IS A DEMOGRAPHIC CLIFF.

THAT MEANS FEWER KIDS ARE GRADUATING HIGH SCHOOL.

SO THERE ARE FEWER TO GO TO COLLEGE.

SO THIS WAVE OF SCHOOLS THAT ARE CONSOLIDATING AND CLOSING THAT IS BEGINNING TO SHAPE UP.

THE SCHOOLS THAT SURVIVE, I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULDN'T RESPOND AND BECOME A SORT OF COMMUNITY WHERE KIDS WILL REENGAGE.

HUMAN BEINGS ARE AWFULLY STRONG AND FIGURE OUT A WAY FORWARD.

THE KIDS WHO WERE IN SCHOOL DURING THE PANDEMIC, SOME WILL RECOVER.

SOME WON'T.

WE LOOKED AT STUDIES ABOUT LIFETIME LEARNING LOSS FOR KIDS WHO WERE IN SCHOOL DURING THINGS LIKE NATURAL DISASTER.

IN ARGENTINA, FOR INSTANCE, THERE WAS A MASSIVE TEACHER STRIKES FOR YEARS THAT CAN KICKED KIDS OUT OF SCHOOL.

IN PAKISTAN, THERE WERE TREMENDOUS EARTHQUAKES THAT DESTROYED WHOLE VILLAGES.

AND YOU COMPARE THE CHILDREN WHO WERE AROUND THOSE NATURAL DISASTERS AND DIDN'T GO TO SCHOOL FOR A YEAR OR TWO, THEY DIDN'T CATCH UP.

WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY GOT DISCOURAGED.

THEY DIDN'T TAKE THE NEXT STEP IN SCHOOL.

THEIR LIFETIME EARNINGS DECLINED.

THERE IS ONE PROFESSOR, RESEARCHER AT STANFORD WHO SUGGESTS LIFETIME LEARNING LOSS IS PROBABLY AROUND $70,000.

SO HOW THAT PLAYS OUT, PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT IT, BUT IT'S >> DOUGLAS BELKIN, THE HIGHER EDUCATION REPORTER FOR "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NEXT TO INDIA, WHERE PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI IS VYING FOR A THIRD TERM IN THE WORLD'S LARGEST DEMOCRACY.

UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN OFF-LOADING TRACES OF ITS COLONIAL PAST, FROM THE CONTROVERSIAL REVAMP OF INDIA'S PARLIAMENT BUILDING, TO RENAMING ISLANDS.

OUR NEXT GUEST HAS SPENT THE LAST DECADE EXAMINING THE LEGACY OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "EMPIREWORLD," JOURNALIST AND BEST-SELLING THAT ARE SATHNAM SANGHERA UNPACKS THE LASTING IMPACT OF IMPERIALISM AROUND THE GLOBE, AND HE JOINED ME ONSET TO SHARE THESE EXPERIENCES.

SATHNAM SANGHERA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> PLEASED TO BE HERE.

>> THIS IS YOUR SECOND BOOK ON EMPIRE, "EMPIREWORLD."

BASICALLY, THE EFFECT OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE ON THE REST OF THE WORLD.

AND YOU START, OR AT LEAST YOU'VE SAID IN TALKING ABOUT IT THAT THIS IS NOT TO BLAME, IT'S NOT TO DENY, IT'S NOT TO TRY TO SORT OF GLOSS OVER THIS VERY COMPLEX, COMPLICATED AND ENDURING LEGACY OF COLONIALISM FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE.

HOW DIFFICULT -- WHAT WAS YOUR REAL MISSION?

>> I GUESS SO MANY BOOKS ON THE BRITISH EMPIRE AND THE LEGACIES ARE THE FOCUS THE POSITIVES OR THE NEGATIVES.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT MAKES SENSE.

IF YOU ACTUALLY SPEND FOUR OR FIVE YEARS LOOKING AT THE LEGACIES AS I DO, WHAT YOU DISCOVER IS THAT THE LEGACIES ARE CONTRADICTORY.

SO THE BRITISH EMPIRE AMOUNTED IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF DEMOCRACY IN PLACES LIKE AUSTRALIA, BUT A HUGE AMOUNT OF GEO CHAOS THAT TAKES UP TIME IN NIGERIA, SUDAN, PALESTINE.

IT RESULTS IN A HUGE AMOUNT OF ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION.

WE DESTROYED 60% OF NEW ZEALAND'S FORESTS, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT ALSO LED TO THE BIRTH OF MODERN-DAY ENVIRONMENTALISM.

IT RESULTED IN THE RULE OF LAW IN CERTAIN PLACES.

IT ALSO RESULTED IN A HUGE AMOUNT OF HOMOPHOBIC LEGISLATION IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

I THINK IT MAKES NO SENSE TO SAY IT WAS GOOD OR BAD.

ALL YOU CAN SAY IT WAS DEEPLY CONTRADICTORY AND WE SHOULD TRY TO UNDERSTAND.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING YOU LAID OUT ALL THESE POINTS, GOOD AND BAD.

BECAUSE WHAT YOU DON'T DO JUST NOW IS TALK ABOUT SLAVERY, WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO EXAMINE EMPIRE FIXATE ON RIGHT NOW.

SO WHETHER IT'S SLAVERY IN THE CARIBBEAN, WHETHER IT'S INDENTURED SERVITUDE IN INDIA AND OTHER PLACE, IT'S ALL PRETTY MUCH ONE AND THE SAME.

TELL ME ABOUT WHY YOU WENT TO BARBADOS, AND HOW THAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE THE BOOK.

>> I WENT TO BARBADOS TO ESCAPE THE EMPIRE, BECAUSE I HAD ENOUGH OF THINKING ABOUT IT.

>> THE PREVIOUS BOOK?

>> THE PREVIOUS BOOK.

MY GIRLFRIEND BOOKED IT NOT REALIZING BARBADOS WAS A DISTINCT PHASE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

IT MADE PEOPLE IN BRITAIN HUGELY RICH, CERTAIN PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE MPs IN OUR PARLIAMENT IS RICHARD DRAX WHOSE WEALTH LARGELY COMES FROM THE EXPORTATION OF THE ENSLAVED IN BARBADOS THEN.

AND FOR ME, IT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING TIME TO GO THERE, BECAUSE A COUPLE OF WEEKS LATER PRINCE WILLIAM AND PRINCESS KATE WENT TO THE CARIBBEAN AND HAD A DISASTROUS TOUR.

AND THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT THAT TOUR THAT WAS ANY DIFFERENT TO ANY OTHER TOUR.

IT WAS NORMAL, EXCEPT SUDDENLY EVERYONE NOTICED THAT THE IMAGERY WAS WRONG.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE STANDING ON THE BACK OF A LAND ROVER WAVING AT BLACK PEOPLE WHEN THAT COUNTRY IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LEGACIES OF SLAVERY.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE TOUCHING CHILDREN THROUGH A WIRED FENCE WHEN YOU'VE LEFT A LEGACY OF INEQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO RACE, HEALTH, AND EDUCATION.

SO SUDDENLY EVEN THE RIGHT-WING BLESS, EVEN IN THE MONARCHIST PRESS REALIZED THIS WAS UNACCEPTABLE.

AND THAT KIND OF ROYAL TOUR WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> BARBADOS, OF COURSE, HAS DECLARED ITS INDEPENDENCE.

AND THERE IS TALK THAT JAMAICA MIGHT GO THE SAME WAY.

BURY WHAT -- YOU WENT ON A GUIDED TOUR.

YOU WENT ON A TOUR FOR VARIOUS OTHER TOURISTS IN BARBADOS, AND YOU SAW SOMETHING THAT REALLY SHOCKED YOU.

SLAVE PLANTATIONS IN THE DEEP SOUTH, AMERICA, AND BEEN AROUND NATIONAL TRUST HOMES IN BRITAIN.

YOU KIND OF EXPECT THE DIFFICULT HISTORY TO BE, BUT IT WAS REALLY SHOCKING THAT IN THREE PLANTATION HOUSES, SLAVERY WAS BARELY MENTIONED.

AND I TALKED TO ONE OF THE GUYS.

AND HE SAID IT WAS BECAUSE THE BRITISH TOURISTS GOING THERE DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO MENTION IT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO JUST GO ON TO THE BUFFET, BASICALLY.

AND I THINK WHAT IT HIGHLIGHTED IS A GAP BETWEEN THE WAY IN WHICH THE WORLD WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE LEGACIES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE, AND THE BRITISH PEOPLE AND THE BRITISH STATE WHO REALLY DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> YOU GIVE A LOT OF EXAMPLES.

YOU STARTED OFF AT THE BEGINNING.

BUT I WAS FASCINATED, BECAUSE I TOO HAVE VISITED KEWE GARDENS OUTSIDE OF LONDON, WHICH IS PHENOMENAL.

AND YOU TALK ABOUT THAT ALSO AS CONTAINING FANTASTIC EXAMPLES OF COLONIALISM.

DESCRIBE THAT.

>> YEAH, I NEVER REALLY THOUGHT OF PLANTS AS AN EXTENSION OF COLONIALISM.

FOR ME THEY'RE INTERIOR DESIGN.

BUT PLANTS WERE THE FOREFRONT OF COLONIALISM.

THINK OF SOMETHING LIKE TEA.

TEA LED TO THE OPIUM WARS IN CHINA WHEN WE DIDN'T WANT TO PAY THE CHINESE WITH SILVER ANYMORE SO, WE STARTED SELLING THEM HARD DRUGS INSTEAD.

IT ARGUABLY WAS INVOLVED IN THE BOSTON TEA PARTY, THE TEA THAT ENDED UP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BOSTON HARBOR WAS EAST INDIA TEA.

THE TRANSPORTATION OF MILLIONS OF LABORS AROUND THE WORLD WHO WERE EXPLOITED TO PRODUCE THE TEA.

THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF COLONIALISM.

BUT THEN RUBBER, HUGELY PROFITABLE CROP FOR THE BRITISH.

LED TO ONE OF THE DARKEST EPISODES IN THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

AND THEN WE'VE GOT THE BARK WHICH PRODUCES QUININE WHICH ENABLED WESTERNERS TO COLONIZE AFRICA.

THREE PLANTS THAT CHANGED THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD.

>> WHICH ARE ON VIEW FOR ANYBODY TO SEE AT KEWE GARDEN.

>> AND RHODODENDRONS AND AZALEAS COME FROM THE EMPIRE.

>> INTERESTINGLY, YOUR BOOK OPENS.

THIS IS THE OPENING LINE.

"THERE IS NOWHERE ON EARTH THAT CRACKLES WITH THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE LIKE NEW DELHI."

>> YEAH.

NEW DELHI WAS BUILT BY THE BRITISH.

IT WAS MEANT TO BE A NEW CAPITAL.

THEY DID THIS IN SEVERAL COLONIES.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS AN OFFICIAL CAMPAIGN OF DECOLONIZATION HAPPENING IN INDIA AT THE MOMENT.

I DON'T THINK BRITISH PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THAT.

SO THEY'RE BUILDING A NEW PARLIAMENT FOR $1.8 BILLION BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER WANT TO DO THEIR DEMOCRACY IN A BUILDING BUILT BY THE BRITISH.

THEY WANT TO TEACH MEDICAL DEGREES IN NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGES.

THEY ARE RENAMING ISLANDS AFTER INDIAN HEROES.

BUT IT CAN ONLY EVER BE TOKENISTIC, BECAUSE I DON'T SEE MODI GETTING RID OF CRICKET.

I DON'T SEE THEM DRIVING ON A DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE ROAD.

SO ULTIMATELY, DECOLONIZATION I THINK THE ONLY BE TOKEN.

>> YOU WROTE SOMETHING KIND OF FUNNY.

YOU BASICALLY SAID TRYING TO CLEANSE INDIA OF THE IMPERIAL INFLUENCE WOULD BE, AS YOU PUT IT, LIKE GETTING THE GHEE OUT OF MY BELOVED BREAKFAST MASALA OMELETTE.

>> YEAH, OR TRYING TO TAKE THE EGG OUT OF BAKED CAKE.

IT'S BAKED INTO OUR WORLD.

IF YOU WANT TO DECOLONIZE THE WORLD, YOU TO GET RID OF NIGERIA, TEA DRINKING, PATTERNS OF TAX AVOIDANCE.

YOU CANNOT ULTIMATELY DECOLONIZE THE WORLD.

>> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT INDIA, THOUGH.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF A SIX-WEEK ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

IT WILL BE ENDING EARLY JUNE.

DO YOU THINK MODI IS A RESULT OF DECADES OF COLONIZATION AND IMPERIALISM, OR IS HIS HINDU NATIONALISM JUST SUI GENEROUS?

IS IT WHAT?

>> HE HAS WEAPONIZED DECOLONIZATION VERY WELL.

SO HE TALKS ABOUT 1,200 YEARS OF THE SLAVE MENTALITY.

THAT INCLUDES THE BRITISH EMPIRE, BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES THE MUGHAL EMPIRE.

IN THAT YOU HAVE THE SEEDS OF ISLAMOPHOBIA, BECAUSE HE ESSENTIALLY SEES INDIA AS A -- >> DOES HE HATE THE TAJ MAHAL?

>> EXACTLY.

HE WOULD PROBABLY FIND A WAY OF SAYING IT WAS A HINDU MONUMENT IN SOME WAY.

IT'S WEIRD BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION, THE CONGRESS PARTY IS THE PARTY OF DECOLONIZATION.

IT WAS INVOLVED IN INDEPENDENCE.

IT SHOWS HOW HOPELESS CONGRESS ARE THAT THEY'RE LOSING THIS DECOLONIZATION ARGUMENT.

>> OR LOSING SOMETHING, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN IN THE WILDERNESS AND IT'S A THIRD TERM THAT MODI IS GOING FOR, AND HE LIKELY TO WIN.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

IS IT THE EXHAUSTION OF ONE PARTY?

LIKE HERE, YOU'RE SEEING THE TORIES FAR BELOW LABOUR AFTER 14 YEARS IN OFFICE.

IT AN EXHAUSTION OF IDEAS, OR IT IS MORE DRAMATIC IN TRYING TO SORT OF TURN THIS INDIA WHICH WAS THE WORLD'S MOST POP LAUGS DEMOCRACY INTO MORE AUTOCRATIC?

>> I THINK HE'S HAD A LOT OF SUCCESS IN PORTRAYING HIMSELF AS AN AUTHENTIC INDIAN.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE CONGRESS AND SAY YOU GUYS ARE COLONIZERS BECAUSE YOU ARE EDUCATED IN THE WEST.

MOST CONGRESS LEADERS AND PRIME MINISTERS WERE OXFORD EDUCATED, WHERE HE WASN'T.

SO I THINK HE HAS DONE WELL AT THAT.

>> AND HE HAS SHOWN -- HE OFTEN SAYS IF SOMEBODY LIKE ME, YOU KNOW, THE SON OF A LOWER CASTE FAMILY CAN RISE TO BE PRIME MINISTER, THEN ANYBODY IN INDIA CAN.

HE MAKES HIMSELF ASPIRATIONAL.

>> YEAH, I THINK HE IS ALSO MANAGED TO TAKE ON THE FRAGMENTATION OF INDIAN POLITICS AND GET A BUNCH OF DISPARATE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN HINDU NATIONALISM.

>> HE IS VERY, VERY POPULAR WITH THE BIG POWERS RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES, FOR INSTANCE, WOULD LIKE TO SEE INDIA AS THEIR ALLY, YOU KNOW, IN THE COMPETITION WITH CHINA.

THEY'D LIKE TO PEEL INDIA AWAY FROM CHINA, HOPE INDIA DOESN'T BE TOO INDEPENDENT, THOUGH IT'S TAKING ITS OIL FROM RUSSIA.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

OBVIOUSLY HIS PERSECUTION OF RELIGIOUS MINORITIES, THE MUSLIMS ARE OBVIOUSLY CRACK DOWN ON THE PRESS, OPPOSITION, ALL OF THAT.

THE WEST IS KIND OF PRACTICALLY TURNING A BLIND EYE TO IT.

WHAT INFLUENCE AND WHAT LEGACY WILL THAT HAVE ON SUCH A MASSIVE DEMOCRACY?

>> IT'S HUGE.

BECAUSE INDIA IS FUNDAMENTALLY WHEN IT WAS BORN A SECULAR NATION.

WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN IT BECAME RELIGIOUS-BASED WITH PARTITION.

UP TO TWO MILLION PEOPLE DIED.

15 MILLION PEOPLE WERE DISPLACED.

THAT'S WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN YOU TURN THAT PART OF THE WORLD INTO A MATTER OF RELIGION.

AND IT'S VERY WORRYING WHAT HE IS DOING IN INDIA, I THINK.

AS A SIKH PERSON, AS SOMEONE WHO COMES FROM A MINORITY FAMILY.

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE AMOUNT OF WORRY AND FEAR AMONGST THE SIKH POPULATION.

THE ASSASSINATION OF A SIKH INDIVIDUAL LEADER IN CANADA, OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

BUT THERE ARE INVESTIGATIONS UNDER WAY.

DO YOU FEEL THAT YOUR COMMUNITY IS UNDER THREAT?

>> I THINK WE DO.

WE'RE SUCH A SMALL COMMUNITY IN BRITAIN, BUT ALSO WE'RE A TINY COMMUNITY IN INDIA AS WELL.

ALTHOUGH WE'RE VERY VISIBLE BECAUSE OF OUR TURBANS.

YEAH, IT IS.

I THINK IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY LIKE MINE, YOU AUTOMATICALLY IDENTIFY WITH A MINORITY GROUP.

>> WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS, ABOUT HIS CULT OF PERSONALITY.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S WHERE THIS COUNTRY IS HEADED UNDER HIM, OR IS THERE ANOTHER EXIT STRATEGY?

>> WHEN I WENT TO INDIA FOR "EMPIREWORLD," I WAS SHOCKED AT THE CULT OF PERSONALITY.

HIS PICTURE IS EVERYWHERE.

AND ALSO, YOU MEET THE LOWEST OF THE LOW PERSON LIKE HOMELESS PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING UP TO ME, SAW THAT I WAS A FOREIGNER, AND THEY WANTED TO GLOAT ABOUT HOW MUCH INDIA HAD ACHIEVED UNDER MODI, WHEREAS NORMALLY THESE PEOPLE PERHAPS WOULD HAVE A LOT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.

SO IT FEELS LIKE HIS MISSION HAS HAD A LOT OF SUCCESS.

>> WHAT KIND OF REACTION HAVE YOU HAD TO WRITING THESE BOOKS?

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FIRST ONE, WHICH BROUGHT YOU A TORRENT, YOU SAY, OF RACIAL ABUSE.

WHY?

>> IT'S NOT JUST ME.

THE BLACK TEA PRESENTER PRESENT FOR THE BBC HAS TO HAVE A BODYGUARD AT LIVE EVENTS.

WHO WROTE A REPORT ON LOCALISM FOR THE NATIONAL TRUST, HAD TO GET THE POLICE INVOLVED, STOPPED LEAVING THE HOUSE.

I STOPPED DOING LIVE EVENTS, PEOPLE SHOUTING AT ME, ONLINE AND IN LETTERS.

IT'S WEIRD BECAUSE A LOT OF THIS ABUSE IS COMING FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY'RE PROUD OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

AND IF YOU'RE THAT PROUD, WHY YOU SO SCARED OF KNOWLEDGE?

>> AND WHAT ARE THEY ACCUSING YOU OF?

>> OF BEING UNPATRIOTIC BY POINTING OUT THAT THE STORY MIGHT BE MORE COMPLICATED.

IT'S QUITE A STRANGE THING.

I THINK IT STEMS FROM OUR FUNDAMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HISTORY IS, THIS IDEA THAT HISTORY IS A FIXED THING.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LEAVE SCHOOL THING OH, IT'S JUST FACTS.

RISHI SUNAK SEEMS TO THINK THAT.

HE RECENTLY SAID WE SHOULDN'T UNPICK HISTORY, THEN THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HISTORIANS DO.

OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE STONE AGE IS CHANGING ALL THE TIME.

OUR UNDERSTANDING OF ROMAN TIMES IS CHANGING BECAUSE WE DISCOVER NEW THINGS.

OUR UNDERSTANDING OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IS CHANGING BECAUSE IT'S ONLY RECENTLY WE'VE BEEN DISCOVERING A NEW NARRATIVE FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE COLONIZED.

SO COMPARED TO THE CENTURIES OF COLONIALISM, NO WONDER THERE IS A RADICAL CHANGE.

NO WONDER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRIGGERED, I GUESS.

>> AND JUST LAST WEEK.

QUESTION.

WE TALKED ABOUT INDIA.

WE TALKED ABOUT BARBADOS.

YOU TRAVELLED A LOT FOR THIS.

DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER SORT OF ANECDOTAL OR PIECE OF HISTORICAL FACT THAT YOU DISCOVERED THAT SURPRISED YOU?

>> ONE OF MY FAVORITE FACTS IS GANJA ASSOCIATED WITH JAMAICA.

>> GANJA THE WEED?

>> IS ACTUALLY NOT A JAMAICAN PLANT.

IT'S AN INDIAN PLANT.

WHEN YOU THINK OF IT, IT'S A VERY INDIAN WORD INTRODUCED BY INDIAN ENDENTURED LABORERS TO JAMAICA.

IT SHOWS YOU ALL THE COMPLICATED WAYS IN WHICH THE BRITISH EMPIRE CHANGED THE PLANET.

THE BRITISH EMPIRE SENT A MILLION INDIANS AROUND THE WORLD.

ONE OF THE MAIN REASON YOU SEE INDIANS WHERE EVER YOU GO IS BECAUSE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

>> IT WAS SAID WHEN QUEEN VICTORIA WAS AROUND, THE SUN NEVER SET ON THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

EVERYWHERE, EVERY HOUR, EVERY TIME ZONE THERE WAS THE BRITISH EMPIRE IN SOME FORM OR FASHION.

YOU KNOW, AMERICA WAS THE 20th CENTURY VERSION OF EMPIRE, THOUGH IT DIDN'T CALL ITSELF THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS THE MOST LONG LASTING EFFECT AND BAKED IN THE DEEPEST?

DO YOU THINK IT IS THE BRITISH EMPIRE ALL OVER THE WORLD OR AMERICANISM AND THE VALUES WHICH ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM BRITISH EMPIRE VALUES THAT AMERICA SENT AROUND THE WORLD?

>> I THINK IMPERIALISM IN WORLD HAS A POWERFUL HOLD ON THE WORLD NOW.

LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE THAT IS IMPERIAL NOSTALGIA.

LOOK AT CHINA IN AFRICA BUYING UP LOADS OF INFLUENCE THERE.

THAT'S WHAT THE BRITISH EMPIRE DID.

EVEN THOUGH BRITISH EMPIRE IS OVER, ITS PSYCHOLOGICAL INFLUENCE UPON THE WORLD REMAINS POWERFUL.

>> SATHNAM SANGHERA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, HOT AIR BALLOONS AND HANNA, THESE ARE SOME OF THE UNIQUE WAYS INDIANS ARE WORKING TO GET OUT THE VOTE.

IN THE SOUTH, INDIA'S ELECTION COMMITTEE TOOK TO THE SKIES TO GARNER ATTENTION AND REMIND CITIZENS WHERE AND HOW THE CAST THEIR BALLOTS.

AND IN WESTERN GUJARAT, YOUNG GIRLS WROTE SLOGANS ON EACH OTHER'S HANDS CELEBRATING THE POWER OF VOTING.

IT'S ALL TO BOOST VOTER TURNOUT WHICH HAS FALLEN A BIT DUE TO SCORCHING HEAT AND THE WEDDING SEASON.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.