May 3, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS PROTESTS RIPPLE THROUGH UNIVERSITIES ACROSS THE GLOBE, I ASKED NORTHWESTERN'S PRESIDENT MICHAEL SCHILL ABOUT HOW HE ENGAGED WITH STUDENTS AND STRUCK A DEAL.

>>> THEN THE RISING THREAT TO REPORTERS.

WE MARK WORLD PRESS FREEDOM DAY WITH THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALIST CEO JODIE GINSBERG.

AND -- >> ANIMALS, OUR MARRIAGES END UP BEING ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT FOR US.

>> CAN GETTING HIXD MAKE YOU HAPPY?

PROFESSOR BRAD WILL COX MAKES THE CASE FOR MARRIAGE TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>> TIME?

ERS EVERYWHERE.

I'M LET INTO THE BUILDING AT SOME POINT.

>> THE FAMED PHOTOGRAPHER REVEALS THE STORIES BEHIND HIS IMAGES OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL FIGURES OF OUR ERA.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

FROM PARIS TO SYDNEY, STUDENTS ACROSS THE WORLD ARE JOINING PROTESTS OVER THE WAR IN GAZA.

THE MOVEMENT AS WE KNOW STARTED AT COLUMBIA'S CAMPUS IN NEW YORK BEFORE SPREADING TO OTHER AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES.

TENSE SCENES AS SOME SCHOOLS CALLED IN TO POLICE.

WITH PROTESTERS DEMANDING A CEASE-FIRE PLUS DIVESTMENT FROM ISRAEL AND JEWISH STUDENTS WORRIED ABOUT THEIR SAFETY, IT IS NO DOUBT A CHALLENGING TIME TO BE A UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT.

POLICE CRACKDOWNS HAVE RAISED CONCERNS OVER PROTESTS AND THE WAR IN GAZA WHICH HAS KILLED TENS OF THOUSANDS.

AT THE SAME TIME THE SECRETARY WROTE TO COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS CONDEMNING ABHORRENT INCIDENTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

MICHAEL SCHILL MANAGED TO STRIKE A DEAL.

DEMONSTRATORS MANAGED TO TAKE DOWN THEIR ENCAMPMENT AFTER THE UNIVERSITY AGREED TO MORE TRANSPARENCY.

IT IS BEING HAILED AS A SUCCESS BY SOME BUT ALSO FACING STIFF BACKLASH.

MICHAEL SCHILL, PRESIDENT OF NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY, JOINS US NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE DEAL THAT WAS ULTIMATELY STRUCK, CAN YOU PAINT A PICTURE FOR US OF WHAT THE SCENES WERE ON CAMPUS?

I BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST ENCAMPMENT APPEARED IN LATE APRIL.

TELL US WHAT YOU SAW, WHAT STUDENTS EXPERIENCED, AND WERE THEY MOSTLY STUDENTS?

OR WERE THERE OUTSIDERS PARTICIPATING AS WELL?

>> WELL, IT'S GOOD TO BE ON.

WE HAD SEVERAL ATTEMPTS ON OUR DEARING MEADOW, OUR FRONT PORCH TO THE UNIVERSITY, AND IT WAS A SITUATION THAT WAS PEACEFUL BUT NONETHELESS DEEPLY TROUBLING TO MANY OF OUR COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY OUR JEWISH STUDENTS.

SO I SET OUT WITH THREE PRINCIPLES IN MIND.

THE FIRST WAS WHATEVER I DID HAD TO PROTECT THE HEALTH AND THE SAFETY OF OUR STUDENTS, ALL OF OUR STUDENTS, JEWISH STUDENTS, MUSLIM STUDENTS, OUR POLICE, OUR STAFF, AND OUR FACULTY.

THAT WAS JOB NUMBER ONE.

THE SECOND IS, I NEEDED TO BRING THAT PROTEST INTO COMPLIANCE WITH OUR POLICIES.

AND HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE THAT VIOLATE IT.

AND I'M DELIGHTED TO SAY, AS YOU SAID, THE TENTS ARE DOWN.

THE STUDENTS ARE IN COMPLIANCE.

THE LAST IS I HAVE A FERVENT BELIEF IN THE FREE EXPRESSION, AND SO DOES THE UNIVERSITY, BUT WE HAVE NO TOLERANCE, NO TOLERANCE AT ALL FOR ANTI-SEMITIC BEHAVIOR OR AN ANTI-ISLAMIC BEHAVIOR.

AND WE NEEDED TO MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR TO PEOPLE.

>> SO WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE ON THAT FRONT?

IN TERMS OF OF A HOSTILE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE SPECIFICALLY OF JEWISH STUDENTS WHO WERE THERE TO LEARN WHO DIDN'T FEEL AS MANY HAVE REPORTED, COMFORTABLE, WALKING THROUGH THIS ENCAMPMENT IN SOME OF WHAT THEY'D EXPERIENCED, SOME OF WHAT THEY HEARD.

WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN REALLY CONDEMN ANY FORM OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

IN THIS LATEST REPORT, IN THE LETTER FROM THE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, HE STRESSED THAT ANTI-SEMITISM IS AGGRESSIVELY FOLLOWED AND CLOSELY WATCHED AND IT IS UNDER TITLE 6 OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT THAT THE UNIVERSITY LEADERS SHOULD BE FOLLOWING.

ARE YOU CONFIDENT YOU ARE INDEED IMPLEMENTING THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE HAVE A DISCIPLINARY PROCESS AND AS WE, IF WE GET A COMPLAINT OF ANTI-SEMITISM, WE WILL DISCIPLINE, WE WILL HAVE THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS AND THEN WE WILL ACCORD DISCIPLINE IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES.

WE HAVE TO SHOW PEOPLE THERE IS NO TOLERANCE FOR ANTI-SEMITISM ON THIS CAMPUS.

MY JOB IS TO PROTECT OUR STUDENTS.

SOME THINGS ARE CLEARLY ANTI-SEMITIC.

DURING THE PAST WEEK, I'VE SEEN THE JEWISH STAR OF DAVID WITH AN X ON IT.

I'VE SEEN ME IN A PICTURE WITH DEVIL'S HORNS, A NOTED ANTI-SEMITIC TROPE.

AND I'VE HEARD STUDENTS CALL EACH OTHER, OR CALL OTHER STUDENTS DIRTY JEWS WHICH IS A HORRIBLE THING.

AND THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY THERE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT SORT OF THING DOESN'T HAPPEN AND IT IS MY JOB TO ANTICIPATE THAT.

>> IS SPEAKING OUT -- >> I BELIEVE CALLING FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL IS ANTI- ANTI-SEMITIC.

THAT'S WHERE ONE HALF OF THE WORLD'S JEWISH POPULATION LIVES.

SO CALLING FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, YES, ANTI-SEMITIC.

CRITICIZING THE POLICIES OF ISRAEL, NOT NECESSARILY ANTI-SEMITIC.

>> FAIR GAME.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE AGREEMENT THAT YOU ULTIMATELY SETTLED ON.

YOU ALLOWED CONTINUING PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS AND ALLOWED 1/10 TO REMAIN THERE.

THERE'S A MEDICAL TENT.

YOU AGREED TO REESTABLISH THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON INVESTMENT TO PROVIDE REPRESENTATION ON UNIVERSITY HOLDINGS.

I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT.

YOU PLEDGED FINANCIAL AND OTHER SUPPORT FOR ARAB AND MUSLIM STUDENTS AND FACULTY WHILE ENSURING SUPPORT FOR JEWISH AND MUSLIM STUDENTS.

TO THE SPECIFIC ISSUE ON PROVIDING TRANSPARENCY AND REPRESENTATION ON UNIVERSITY HOLDINGS, CAN YOU GIVE US MORE DETAIL AS TO WHAT THAT ENCOMPASSES?

THERE HAD BEEN SOME CONFUSION ABOUT WHETHER THAT MEANT DIVESTMENT OR OPENING CONVERSATION.

AT LEAST WITH REGARDS TO DIVESTING FROM ISRAEL.

YOU SAID THAT IS NOT THE THE CASE BUT THERE SEEM TO BE SOME AMBIGUITY ABOUT THAT.

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING THE QUESTION.

THERE'S NOTHING AMBIGUOUS ABOUT IT.

WE ARE NOT DIVESTING.

THAT WAS A NONSTARTER.

THE STUDENTS ASKED FOR THAT.

THEY'RE ASKING FOR IT ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE SAID NO.

THERE WERE THREE OTHER ASKS.

WE SAID NO.

THEN WE ENTERED INTO A DIALOGUE WITH THE STUDENTS TO ADDRESS THEIR REAL NEEDS IN A WAY THAT WE CAN MAKE OUR UNIVERSITY BETTER.

SO WE ARE NOT DIVESTING.

WHAT WE ARE DOING IS PROVIDING MORE TRANSPARENCY WITH REGARD TO OUR INVESTMENTS.

IN THE PROGRAM WITH REGARD TO SCHOLARSHIPS IS PART OF AN EXISTING PROGRAM.

IT IS THE SCHOLARS AT RISK PROGRAM.

A LOT OF UNIVERSITIES DO THIS.

IF AN AREA OF THE COUNTRY IS DEVASTATED, UKRAINE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE WILL PROVIDE SCHOLARSHIPS TO STUDENTS AND SCHOLARS TO COME HERE AND STUDY.

THAT'S JUST AN EXISTING PROGRAM.

>> RIGHT.

PRESIDENT SCHILL, AS YOU KNOW, SEVEN MEMBERS OF THE COLLEGE'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE RESIGNED AFTER THIS DEAL WAS REACH.

ONE OF THE COMPLAINTS THEY HAD WAS THAT THEY HAD NOT BEEN CONSULTED DURING THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

WERE THEY?

AND IF NOT, WHY NOT?

>> CERTAINLY NOT ALL THE MEMBERS WERE CONSULTED.

>> WAS ANYONE CONSULTED?

>> PARDON ME?

>> WAS ANYONE CONSULTED ON IT?

>> THERE WAS SOME CONSULTATION ON INDIVIDUAL PIECES OF IT.

BUT THE THING IS THIS WAS A NEGOTIATION THAT TOOK PLACE OVER THREE OR FOUR DAYS AND NIGHTS AND ONE CAN'T WORK WITH A COMMITTEE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO STUDENTS AND TRYING TO COME TO A RESOLUTION.

THIS WAS NEVER PART OF THE COMMITTEE'S AGENDA.

AND FOCUS.

AND I REALLY, I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS RESIGNED BUT I'M ALSO GRATEFUL FOR THE GREAT WORK THEY DID.

AND THEIR STEPPING DOWN WON'T STOP MY COMMITMENT AND THE SCHOOL'S COMMIT MMENT TO FIGHTI A ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND I'M ALREADY SPEAKING TO THEM.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS FOR YOUR RESIGNATION FROM THE ADL AS WELL AS OTHER JEWISH GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY.

AND I JUST WANT TO QUOTE ONE OF THE STUDENTS WHO RESIGNED FROM THE ANTI-SEMITISM COMMITTEE.

SHE SAID IT APPEARS AS THOUGH BREAKING THE RULES GETS YOU SOMEWHERE IN TRYING TO DO THINGS RESPECTFULLY AND BY THE BOOKS DOES NOT.

HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT POINT IN THE SENSE THAT IT APPEARS AT LEAST TO SOME OPTICALLY, THAT YOU GAVE IN TO DEMANDS FROM STUDENTS WHO WERE NOT ABIDING BY CAMPUS POLICY?

>> SO TWO THINGS.

ONE IS, AS YOU SAID, THE ADL HAS ASKED FOR MY RESIGNATION.

I'M JEWISH.

I PRACTICE.

I GREW UP AND STILL DO HOLD A PLACE IN MY HEART FOR ISRAEL.

SO OBVIOUSLY IT HURTS.

I'M ALSO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY.

AND I'M NOT GOING TO LET MY PERSONAL FEELINGS AFFECT HOW I HANDLE THIS.

MY JOB IS TO TAKE CARE OF THE HEALTH, SAFETY, AND GREAT EDUCATIONAL MISSION OF NORTH WESTERN.

IN TERMS OF MEETING THE STUDENTS, WE KEEP OUR STUDENTS THAT DIALOGUE IS IMPORTANT.

THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO BRIDGE THE DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY AND I AM GOINGED THE THAT.

TO ENGAGE WITH OUR STUDENTS.

THIS IS BOTH A LEARNING PROCESS AS WELL AS AN IMPORTANT PART IN THE UNIVERSITY'S VALUES.

SO I DON'T VIEW IT AS CAPIT CAPITULATION.

THE THINGS WE AGREED TO WERE A PROCESS OF DIALOGUE AND THEN ALL THE THINGS THAT WE AGREED TO MAKE THIS UNIVERSITY STRONGER.

>> IN TERMS OF GOING FORWARD, WE'RE APPROACHING THE SUMMER MONTHS.

IT WAS INTERESTING TO SEE WHILE OTHER UNIVERSITY CAMPUS NEWSPAPERS ARE COVERING THESE PROTESTS ON THEIR OWN CAMPUS, YOURS WAS TALKING ABOUT ON THE FRONT PAGE, THE CHINA IS LACROSSE, NUMBER ONE, NORTHWESTERN GRINDS OUT THE BIG SEMIFINAL VICTORY.

THE CONVERSATION HAS SHIFTED.

>> WE HAVE AN AMAZING LACROSSE TEAM.

>> CONGRATULATIONS.

MY QUESTION IS GOING FORWARD, IS YOUR DECISION THAT YOU MADE, THIS AGREEMENT, IS THAT A STOP-GAP?

OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE THAT US THAT AN END TO THIS ISSUE?

THERE HAD BEEN SOME ACCOUNTS, AN INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT THAT READ FROM SOMEONE ON THIS DIVESTMENT COALITION THAT SAID THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

WE CONSIDER THIS A CHANCE TO PLAN AND BUILD POWER.

WE HAVE MUCH MORE WORK AHEAD OF US AND WE WILL NOT STOP NOW.

>> SO WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE A SUSTAINABLE DE-ESCALATION THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH THE STUDENTS.

WE ARE MEETING THE STUDENTS' NEEDS.

AND I AM HOPING THAT THIS WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WILL CONTINUE THROUGH THE SUMMER.

WE'RE ON THE QUARTER SYSTEM HERE SO WE'LL BE IN CLASSES AT LEAST ANOTHER MONTH.

>> SO THE DOOR TO DIVESTMENT IS SHUT UNDER YOUR LEADERSHIP?

>> I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND DIVESTMENT, PERIOD.

BUT I ALSO DON'T CONTROL DIVESTMENT.

IT'S A DECISION OF THE BOARD.

>> THANK YOU.

SO FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WE WANT TO REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT STAY WORLD PRESS FREEDOM DAY.

ACROSS THE GLOBE, JOURNALISTS ARE FACING GROWING ATTACKS FOR DOING THEIR JOBS.

THAT'S IT.

JUST DOING THEIR JOBS.

SOME ARE PUT BEHIND BARS LIKE EVAN GERSHKOVICH, THE REPORTER DETAINED IN RUSSIA.

AND OTHERS HAVE DIED WHILE REPORTING.

AT LEAST 97 JOURNAL I HAVES AND MEDIA WORKERS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

THE CEO JODIE GINSBERG KNOWS ALL ABOUT THIS WORRYING REALITY AND JOINS ME LIVE FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. WE THROW AROUND A LOT OF STATISTICS, NUMBERS HERE.

AT SOME POINT WE GROW NUMB TO THEM OR YOU CAN GROW NUMBER TO THEM.

IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO PUT NAMES AND FACES.

AND THE IMPORTANT WORK THEY'VE BEEN DOING, AT LEAST 97 JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER.

AT LEAST 92 OF THEM WERE PALESTINIAN.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT LIFE IS LIKE FOR JOURNALISTS TRYING TO WORK IN GAZA AND GIVE VIEWERS AROUND THE WORLD A SENSE OF THE REALITY THERE?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THIS REALLY IMPORTANT DAY.

AND THANK YOU FOR PUTTING OUT, THESE AREN'T NUMBERS.

THEY'RE INDIVIDUALS, PEOPLE WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES.

WE MOURN THE LOSS OF EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

WITH THEM WE LOSE NOT JUST AN INDIVIDUAL BUT THE STORIES THEY ARE TRYING TO TELL.

THE CONFLICTS, THE WAR IN GAZA IS THE DEADLIEST CONFLICT FOR JOURNALISTS THAT THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS HAS EVER DOCUMENTED AND WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS.

JOURNALISTS ARE LIVING THE WAR AND TRYING TO REPORT ON THE WAR.

THEY ARE THEMSELVES BEING SUBJECT TO BOMBARDMENTS, THEY'RE WORKING WITHOUT SHELTER, WITHOUT FUEL, WITHOUT FOOD.

IT'S BEEN SEVEN MONTHS.

EQUIPMENT IS DEGRADING AND PEOPLE ARE HAVING TO REPORT ON THE LOSS OF THEIR OWN FRIENDS AND FAMILY, GOING TO COVER INCREDIBLY CHALLENGING EVENTS THEMSELVES AT HOSPITALS, REFUGEE CAMPS.

SO IT IS UNIMAGINABLY DIFFICULT.

AND THEY'RE DOING IT BY THEMSELVES.

NO INTERNATIONAL JOURNALESE HAVE BEEN ALLOWED IN.

THESE ARE REALLY THE EARS AND EYES OF THE WAR AND ITS EFFECT IN GAZA.

>> CAN YOU TELL US SOME EXAMPLES OF THESE BRAVE JOURNALISTS?

>> OF COURSE.

THERE'S THE EXAMPLE OF THE REUTERS JOURNALIST KILLED ON THE BORDER BY ISRAELI FIRE VERY EARLY ON IN THE FIRE.

IN OCTOBER, HE WAS IN A GROUP CLEARLY WEARING PRESS INSIGNIA, WORKING FROM AN AREA KNOWN TO BE SOMEWHERE WHERE PRESS OPERATED.

WE THINK OF MOUSTAPHA AND ANOTHER WHOSE VEHICLE WAS TARGETED WITH THEM.

IN IT, THE GAZA CITY BUREAU CHIEF FOR AL JAZEERA WHO ALSO LOST MANY OF HIS OWN FAMILY IN THIS WAR.

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BRING US INFORMATION ABOUT THE WAR AND HELP US SEE THE REALITY OF IT.

THE HUMAN COST OF THIS WAR DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

>> YOU WROTE A PIECE ON THIS POINT FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" EARLIER LAST MONTH.

YOU SAID WITHOUT INDEPENDENT WITNESSES, ISRAEL MUST OPEN TO JOURNALISTS AND ISRAEL'S ALLIES MUST NOT SIS ON IT.

JUSTICE AND DEMOCRACY MUST DEPEND ON IT.

THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS FOR MONTHS FOR ISRAEL TO ALLOW ACCESS AND EGYPT AS WELL, TO ALLOW ACCESS FOR JOURNALISTS TO ENTER GAZA.

I'M CURIOUS.

WHAT IS THE REACTION, THE RESPONSE FROM, AS YOU NOTE, ISRAEL'S ALLIES WHO YOU WERE ALSO REACHING OUT AND PLEADING TO SPECIFICALLY?

THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, ISRAEL'S ALLIES LIKE THE UNITED STATES CONTINUE TO INSIST THEY HOLD PRESS FREEDOM IN THE HIGHEST REGARD.

YET WE HAVE SEEN NO MOVEMENT.

WE HAVE SEEN NO FOREIGN ACCESS, NO INDEPENDENT FOREIGN ACCESS BEING ALLOWED IN GAZA SINCE THE START OF THE WAR.

AND IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL THAT WE ARE ABLE TO BRING RELIEF TO THOSE JOURNALISTS WHO ARE THERE BUT ALSO THAT WE HAVE OTHER INDIVIDUALS ABLE TO CORROBORATE WHAT'S BEEN TLAPG AND PROVIDE OTHER IMAGES.

THE WORK OF THE JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE BEEN COURAGEOUSLY DOCUMENTING THE WAR FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

>> AND SADLY, WE'VE SPENT THIS TIME THUS FAR JUST TALKING ABOUT ONE HORRIFIC PART OF THE WORLD NOW AT WAR.

WE'VE BEEN COVERING THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND OTHER INSTANCES AROUND THE WORLD.

CPJ DOCUMENT 320 JOURNALISTS THAT HAVE BEEN BEHIND BARS AS OF DECEMBER 1st OF LAST YEAR.

THE SECOND HIGHEST ON RECORD FOR THE ORGANIZATION, BY THE WAY.

AND WE NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION, EVAN GERSHKOVICH STILL REMAINS BEHIND BARS, OVER A YEAR NOW IN RUSSIA.

AND THIS IS PRETRIAL DETENTION.

AND THAT KEEPS GETTING POSTPONED.

WE KNOW HOW THEY VIEW RULE OF LAW.

IN TERMS WHERE HE STANDS, ANY SORT OF PROSPECT OF A PRISONER SWAP, WHERE ARE THINGS RIGHT NOW?

RUSSIA HAS YET TO PROVE ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE.

>> THERE'S TO EVIDENCE HE'S BEING HELD HOSTAGE FOR HIS WORK AND TO SEND A PLEDGE TO OTHER JOURNALIST THAT'S THEIR WORK IS NOT WELCOME IN RUSSIA.

INDEPENDENT DOMESTIC JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR YEARS TO REPORT FREELY AND EVAN'S ARREST SENDS A CLEAR MESSAGE TO FOREIGN MEDIA OPERATIONS THAT THEY SHOULD OPERATE VERY CAREFULLY AND CAUTIOUSLY.

IT SEEMS SOMEWHAT STUCK AT THE MOMENT.

EVAN'S SITUATION, I WAS JUST AT AN EVENT WITH HIS SISTER DANIELLE.

SHE CONTINUES, AND HIS FAMILY CONTINUES AND WE CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE VERY STRONGLY FOR HIM.

OF COURSE, THIS DOES RESIDE ULTIMATE WHEN I THE GOVERNMENT AND WE'RE SEEING VERY LITTLE MOVEMENT FROM RUSSIA ON THIS.

WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST, AND YOU MADE THIS APPOINTMENT JUST NOW.

GLOBALLY WE ARE SEEING A DECLINE IN PRESS FREEDOM.

NOT JUST THE WAR ZONES THAT YOU MENTIONED OR THE COUNTRIES THAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT JOURNALISTS TO BE UNWELCOME.

AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES LIKE RUSSIA, CHINA.

DEMOCRACY IS DECLINING GLOBALLY AND THE FIRST INDICATORS, THE CANARIES IN THE COAL MINE ARE OFTEN JOURNALISTS WHEN DEMOCRACIES DECLINE.

THAT'S HAPPENING NOT JUST RUSSIA AND CHINA BUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE.

SOMETHING WE WANT TO STRESS AS WE CELEBRATE THE IMPORTANCE OF A FREE PRESS TODAY.

>> AND HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANCE OF A FREE PRESS.

IT'S NOT A GUARANTEE AROUND THE WORLD, AS YOU KNOW.

IT IS A SOMBER NOTE TO END ON.

WE SHOULD SAY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TWO DECADES, THERE ARE MORE CLOSED AUTOCRACIES THAN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES IN THE WORLD.

AND ONCE AGAIN IT HIGHLIGHTS THE IMPORTANCE OF A FREE AND SAFE PRESS.

JODIE GINSBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WORK YOU'RE DOING.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO ONE OF THE WORLD AS BEST MEANT TO PHOTOGRAPHERS WHOSE WORK HAS DEFINED THE PAGES OF "TIME," ROLLING STONE, AND THE NEW YORKER.

HE GOES BY ONE NAME, PLATON.

FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES HE'S BEEN UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL WITH THE MOST INFLUENTIAL FIGURES OF OUR ERA.

NOW THE ORDINARY PEOPLE STANDING UP FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.

HE JOINED CHRISTIANE ON THE LONDON SET TO DISCUSS.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "DEFENDERS."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT TITLE?

>> WELL, IT'S A SUPER HERO TITLE.

BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDERS OF HUMAN RIGHTS DO, THEY'RE ORDINARY PEOPLE BUT THEY DO EXTRAORDINARY THINGS.

AND WE OFTEN THINK OF HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS AND ACTIVISTS.

WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THEM IN A CERTAIN WAY.

MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED BY HISTORY, BY SOCIETY, AND FACED HORRENDOUS HARDSHIPS.

BUT WITH ALL THOSE CHALLENGES, THEY DO EXTRAORDINARY THINGS.

SO I THOUGHT WE SHOULD CHANGE, START TO CHANGE THE NARRATIVE AND SEE THEM AS A NEW SET OF CULTURAL HEROES.

>> YOU LIKE VERY MUCH YOUR IMAGE OF MUHAMMAD ALI.

BY NO MEANS AN ORDINARY PERSON BUT HE CAPTURED THE IMAGINATION OF ORDINARY PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

EXPLAIN TO ME THIS PICTURE.

HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT?

>> HE WAS VERY FRAIL WHEN HE TOOK THIS.

I BELIEVE IT IS MAYBE THE LAST PHOTO SHOOT HE DID.

AND HE HAD LOST CONTROL OF HIS ONCE MOST POWERFUL ARMS AND FISTS.

>> BECAUSE OF THE PARK PARK'S.

>> YES.

WHEN HE FELT ME DRAYMPE THE AMERICAN FLAG OVER HIS FIGURE, IT WAS REALLY MOVING.

HIS WIFE STARTED TO CRY A LITTLE BIT.

AND HE WAS TREMBLING TRYING TO KEEP HIS HANDS IN THAT POSITION.

I SAID TO HIM, MUHAMMAD, YOU ARE THE GREATEST.

PLEASE TEACH ME TO BE GREAT.

HOW CAN MY GENERATION BE AS GREAT AS YOUR GENERATION HAD TO BE DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA IN AMERICA?

I GOT CLOSE TO HIM.

HE WHISPERED IN MY EAR.

HE SAID I HAVE A CONFESSION TO MAKE.

I SAID WHAT IS IT?

HE SAID I WASN'T AS GREAT AS I SAID I WAS.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT WAS GREAT.

AND WASN'T ME.

IT WAS THE PEOPLE SAW THEMSELVES IN MY STRUGGLE AND MY STORY.

>> LET'S GO NOW TO THE PICTURES OF WORLD LEADERS.

HE'S OBVIOUSLY A LEADER, MUHAMMAD ALI.

BUT IN TERMS OF THIS KIND OF LEADER, THIS WAS FOR THE "TIME" MAGAZINE COVER OF 2008 PERSON OF THE YEAR.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY PICTURE OF HIM.

YOU HAVE TWO PICTURES.

I CHOSE THIS ONE.

EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT PUTIN IS SUMMED UP IN THAT PICTURE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

>> HE'S PERFORMING POWER.

>> EXACTLY.

>> A WHOLE PROCESS OF INTIMIDATION WHEN COMING INTO CONTACT WITH POWER.

I WAS TOLD THAT IT'S IN THE HALLS OF THE KREMLIN.

I WAS PICKED UP, DRIVEN TO THE GATES BY A FORMER KGB BMW.

YOU GET TO THE GATES AND IT TURNS.

GOES OUT OF MOSCOW INTO A DARK, BLEAK, GOTHIC FOREST.

IT IS REALLY INTIMIDATING.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.

I'M LED BOO THE BUILDING AT GUNPOINT.

>> LITERALLY.

>> YEAH.

THE ENTOURAGE COMES IN.

HE HAS TWO TRANSLATORS WHO WHISPER INTO HIS EAR.

A WHOLE TEAM OF ADVISERS AND A GANG OF BODY GUARDS.

I NERVOUSLY SAID, MR. PRESIDENT, BEFORE WE CAPTURE A MOMENT OF HISTORY, I HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK YOU.

I SAID I WAS BROUGHT UP BY MY MOM AND DAD LISTENING TO THE BEATLES.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF YOU EVER LISTENED TO THE BEATLES.

AND THEN PUTIN TURNS TO ME AND IN PERFECT ENGLISH HE SAYS, I LOVE THE BEATLES.

>> I SAID, I DIDN'T KNOW YOU SPEAK ENGLISH.

HE SAID I SPEAK PERFECT ENGLISH.

I SAID WHO IS YOUR FAVORITE BEATLE?

HE SAID PAUL.

I AM INTERESTING.

WHAT'S YOUR FAVORITE SONG?

IS IT BACK IN THE USSR?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT MADE ME DO THAT.

>> CHEEKY.

>> VERY CHEEKY.

HE GAVE ME A VERY STERN LOOK.

>> AND THAT WAS IT?

>> THIS WAS DONE A FEW SECONDS AFTER.

SO THE MOOD IS THERE.

AND THEN HE SAID, NO.

MY FAVORITE SONG IS "YESTERDAY."

THINK ABOUT IT.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT IT.

>> AND I THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND I THOUGHT, I'M BEING SENT A SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE ABOUT THE OLD DAYS OF POWER AND AUTHORITY OF THE SOVIET UNION THROUGH A PAUL McCARTNEY SONG.

AND HERE'S THE THING.

THAT HUMAN CONNECTION ALLOWED ME IN.

I THINK AFTER THAT, HE REALIZED THAT I HAD TUNED INTO HIS FREQUENCY OR SOMETHING.

SO I ENDED UP AN INCH AND A HALF FROM HIS NOSE FROM THE CLOSE-UP PICTURE I TOOK.

>> LITERALLY.

>> LITERALLY.

I COULD FEEL HIS BREATH ON MY HAND.

IT'S INTIMATE.

AND IN THIS PICTURE, HE'S PERFORMING POWER.

THIS IS HOW I GOT WHAT I BELIEVE IS A TRUE MOMENT.

THIS IS THE FACE OF POWER IN RUSSIA.

>> SO THIS WAS TAKEN IN 2007.

THAT IS BEFORE I THINK HE MADE HIS BIG SPEECH WARNING THE WEST THAT HE WOULDN'T TOLERATE ANY EXPANSION BEFORE HE INVADED, ANNEXED CRIMEA.

BEFORE THE FULL-SCALE INVASION.

BEFORE HE BECAME A THAT PARIAH.

THESE WERE TAKEN AT THE SAME TIME?

>> YEAH.

THIS IS THE SAME SESSION.

EVERYONE PROBABLY KNOWS THEM LIKE THIS.

YOU KNOW?

HARD CORPS, FEMINIST GROUP WHO SPEAKS TRUTH TO POWER.

WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU REMOVE THOSE AGGRESSIVE MASKS?

YOU SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

AND THIS IS NADIA AND MARSHA AFTER THEY WERE RELEASED FROM PRISON.

THEY PAID A HEAVY PRICE FOR THIS SUPPORT OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND LGBTQ RIGHTS IN THEIR COUNTRY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR FACES HERE, YOU SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

YOU SEE AS A RESULT NERVE BUILT.

YOU SEE HUMANITY.

THEY HAVE COMPASSION FOR EACH OTHER AS FELLOW ACTIVISTS.

NOW, THEY'RE DEFENDERS.

>> HOW DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE COMPASSION, THE ACTIVISM IN LIGHT OF THE BOSS MAN?

PUTIN AND THE POWER AND THE INTIMIDATION WHO YOU HAD PHOTOGRAPHED YEARS BEFORE?

>> THEY CAME TO MY STUDIO TO DO THIS.

I HAD A PICTURE OF PUTIN ON THE WALL.

>> WHAT WAS THEIR REACTION WHEN THEY WALKED IN, FRESH OUT OF JAIL THAT PUTIN HAD PUT THEM IN AND WAS GREETED BY A GREAT BIG PORTRAIT OF PUTIN?

>> EMPOWERMENT.

THEY SIT ON THE SAME APPLE BOX THAT HE SAT ON.

>> AND NOW A CURRENT WAR-TIME LEADER IS BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

YOU PHOTOGRAPHED HIM TWICE.

A FEW YEARS BETWEEN THESE TWO.

I BELIEVE THAT WAS FIRST AND THAT WAS SECOND.

HE LOOKS A LITTLE OLDER AND GRIMMER THERE.

WHAT ABOUT POWER DID YOU SENSE FROM HIM?

WHAT KIND OF HUMAN CONNECTION DID YOU MAKE?

>> THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING FOR ME AS A PROCESS OF CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE.

THIS PICTURE WAS DONE AT THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN NEW YORK.

AND HE IS HERE IN FULL POLITICIAN MODE.

HE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY TELLER.

HE'S GREAT WITH COMMUNICATION WITH MEDIA.

HE KEPT WHISPERING TO ME AS I TOOK THIS PICTURE, PLATON, MAKE ME LOOK GOOD.

AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN HIS FACE.

HE'S CONNECTING WITH THE CAMERA.

HE WANTS TO REACH OUT TO THE AUDIENCE AND SAY WHAT HE WANTS TO SAY.

BUT HIS FATHER HAD JUST DIED WHEN I DID THIS.

SO HE INVITED ME TO HIS HOME.

IT IS NO LONGER AT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

IT IS NO LONGER A PERFORMANCE.

NOW I'M SEEING RAW EMOTION.

HE'S DEVASTATED.

HE'S EVEN VOLATILE EMOTION.

ONE MINUTE HE WAS CHARLIEING AND VULNERABLE.

THE NEXT MINUTE HE WAS AGGRESSIVE AND DIFFICULT.

AND I SAW THE OTHER SIDE.

THE SIDE THAT IS BUILT ON RAGE, VOLCANO ACTIVITY.

EMOTION.

THIS IS EMOTIONALLY CHARGED.

THIS IS PROFESSIONALLY CHARGED.

>> WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE PERSON FLAG.

THIS IS A MAN WHO HAS BEEN PRESIDENT, WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT AGAIN, DONALD TRUMP.

>> I'VE BEEN TOLD THIS IS ONE OF HIS FAVORITE ROOMS.

THE BOARD ROOM IN TRUMP TOWER WHERE EVERYONE WOULD GET FIRED IN HIS TV SHOW.

THIS IS WHERE HE EXERCISED POWER AS A REHEARSAL, I THINK, FOR THE PRESIDENCY.

I REMEMBER SAYING TO HIM, DONALD, LET'S JUST BE HUMAN.

>> WHEN WAS THIS?

>> THAT WAS BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT.

BEFORE THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN STARTED PROPERLY.

AND I SAID, LET'S BE HUMAN TOGETHER.

WE'VE ALL FOLLOWED YOUR CAREER.

NO ONE CAN DOUBT IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY CAREER PATH YOU'VE HAD.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU.

ALWAYS AN AIR OF TENSION AND CONTROVERSY ABOUT THINGS YOU SAY AND DO IN PUBLIC.

AND I'M SURE IT IS INTENTIONAL ON YOUR PART.

IT FEELS TO ME LIKE YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN EMOTIONAL STORY.

I AM I CAN'T LIVE WITH THAT TENSION ALL THE TIME.

AS A HUMAN BEING, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW YOU WEATHER THE STORM.

HE CALMLY LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID, I AM THE STORM.

>> EVEN THEN.

>> I HAD THOSE WORDS RINGING OUT IN MY BRAIN THROUGH THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

THROUGH HIS PRESIDENCY.

THROUGH HIS POST PRESIDENCY.

NOW WE'RE IN ANOTHER CYCLE AGAIN.

AND I KEEP THINKING TO MYSELF, THERE'S ONLY ONE PERSON WHO CAN WEATHER THE STORM PERFECTLY AND THAT'S THE CREATOR OF THE STORM.

THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY POWERFUL.

FORMIDABLE.

AND THEY'RE MUCH SMARTER THAN WE MAKE THEM OUT TO BE.

AND THEY ARE NOT TO BE UNDERESTIMATED.

I THINK WE ALWAYS SEEM TO DO THAT.

>> ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT HE BROUGHT TO THE FORE, THAT HE REALLY MADE IT A CAMPAIGN ISSUE, IS IMMIGRATION.

HERE'S A PICTURE OF A MOTHER WITH A PICTURE OF HER BOY.

>> THIS IS A DIFFICULT STORY.

HER NAME IS FAMINA.

FROM GUATEMALA.

A COUNTRY RAVAGED BY ABJECT POVERTY, CORRUPTION, GANG VIOLENCE.

HER PARENTS WERE KILLED.

HER GRANDPARENTS WERE KILLED.

SHE HAD TROUBLE FEEDING HER SON WHO WAS 8 YEARS OLD AT THE TIME.

HIS NAME WAS OMAR.

SHE MADE THE MOST DIFFICULT DECISION A MOTHER COULD MAKE.

TO LEAVE YOUR SON BEHIND WITH FAMILY MEMBERS.

CROSS OVER BORDERS INTO THE DANGEROUS, DEADLY SONNORAN DESERT.

SHE UNDERESTIMATED HER BOY WOULD MISS HER THAT MUCH.

AND EVERY DAY HE WOULD CALL HER CRYING.

AFTER ABOUT A YEAR, SHE COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.

A LOCAL NEIGHBOR, A WOMAN IN HER 50s, AGREED TO ESCORT THE BOY.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE DESERT IS SO DEADLY, IT REACHES WELL OVER 100 DEGREES SOME DAYS.

AND PEOPLE ARE ILL-PREPARED.

SO THE NEIGHBOR LOOKING AFTER THE BOY STARTED TO FEEL HEAT EXHAUSTION.

AND SHE COULDN'T KEEP UP.

THE BOY DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE HIS FRIEND.

SO HE STAYED TO KEEP HER COMPANY.

A DAY WENT BY.

A YEAR WENT BY.

TWO YEARS WENT BY.

NO NEWS.

AND FAMINA IS DEVASTATED.

SO AFTER ALL THAT TIME, ONE DAY SHE RECEIVED NEWS FROM A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER IN A MORGUE IN ARIZONA.

>> BECAUSE WE HAVE A BIG PICTURE OF THE MORGUE IN TUCSON.

>> YES.

AND THEY FOUND OUT, THEY INFORMED HER THAT TWO SKELETAL REMAINS HAD BEEN FOUND, CO-MINGLED AGAINST THE ROCK.

IT WAS HER SON.

SHE FOUND THIS OUT THE DAY I WAS TO PHOTOGRAPH HER.

NOW, NO ONE SHOULD SIT FOR A STORY, A PHOTOGRAPH UNDER THESE TRAUMATIC CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO I DID WHAT MY HEART TOLD ME TO DO.

I PUT DOWN MY CAMERA AND I GAVE HER A HUG.

CHRISTIANE, I STILL REMEMBER THE FEELING OF HER PAIN GOING THROUGH MY BODY LIKE VIBRATIONS.

AND AFTER A FEW SECONDS, SHE PUSHES ME AWAY.

SHE WAS MAKING THE SOUND OF A WOUNDED ANIMAL.

SHE GRABS THE PICTURE OF HER SON, THIS FRIEND, AND SHE SAID TAKE MY PICTURE NOW.

I WANT THE WORLD TO SEE MY PAIN.

SO I TOOK THIS PICTURE.

>> SUCH A GREAT EXAMPLE OF DEFENDERS AND YOUR WORK ON HUMAN RIGHTS.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU HAVE A THOUGHT, TO FINISH UP, ON, DO YOU FEEL A THREAT TO WHAT YOU DO AND TO THE INTEGRITY OF PHOTOGRAPHY FROM AI?

DO YOU REMEMBER SONY AWARD, THIS PHOTOGRAPH WON AND THEN THE WINNER ADMITTED THAT IT WAS A FAKE.

IT WAS AI, AND OBVIOUSLY REFUSED THE AWARD.

IT WAS A BIG LESSON.

HAVE YOU HAD TIME TO THINK AND PROCESS AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEFEND AGAINST THAT?

>>> WELL, THERE IS ALWAYS BEEN ADVANCE THERE'S TECHNOLOGY.

AND STORY TELLERS HAVE ALWAYS HAD TO ADAPT.

AND I'M AN OPTIMIST.

I'M NOT NAIVE.

AFTER THE THINGS I'VE EXPERIENCED, BUT I BELIEVE IN THE HUMAN CONDITION.

I'VE SEEN IT SURVIVE UNDER THE WORST CIRCUMSTANCES.

THAT MEANS THERE IS HOPE HERE.

WE WILL DO TERRIBLE THINGS IN HISTORY AND WE WILL GET THINGS WRONG.

BUT IT IS IN OUR NATURE ALSO TO SWING TO THE POSITIVE SIDE OF HISTORY AND THE HUMAN CONDITION TO TRY TO COME TOGETHER TO BUILD BRIDGES, NOT WARS.

>> PLATON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE OF HOPE THERE.

A REMINDER OF THE RESILIENCE OF THE HUMAN CONDITION AS WE CONTINUE TO COVER WAR AND DIVISION ACROSS THE GLOBE.

"THE DEFENDERS" IS ON SALE NOW.

>>> WE TURN TO WHAT ROLE DOES MARRIAGE PLAY IN AN AMERICAN SOCIETY?

OUR NEXT ROLE SAYS IT IS ESSENTIAL IN MAIN DETAINING HAPPINESS AND PROSPERITY.

GET MARRIED.

THAT IS THE ADVICE OF THE ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL MARRIAGE PROJECT, BRAD WILCOX.

WHY HE THINKS IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR POLICY MAKERS TO CONTINUE BACKING THIS 4,000-YEAR-OLD INSTITUTION AS IT BECOMES LESS MODERN IN OUR WORLD.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, MICHEL.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED "GET MARRIED."

WHY WE MUST SAVE CIVILIZATION.

NO BIG THING THERE.

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE GET MARRIED?

THE BIG QUESTION IS, YOU'RE VERY CLEAR ABOUT YOUR PRESCRIPTION HERE.

WHY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN HEARING A LOT OF VOICES LATELY.

FROM THE MAIN STREAM LEFT AND NOW THE RIGHT ENCOURAGING ADULTS TO STEER CLEAR OF MARRIAGE.

EVEN STEER CLEAR OF FAMILY LIFE.

ALL THE SACRIFICES AND STRESSES, THE DIFFICULT BUSINESS FOLLOW FOR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY ARE BEING PUT INTO THE FOREGROUND OF OUR CONVERSATION.

BUT THE DATA TELL A VERY DIFFERENT STORY.

THE BOOK IS IN PARCH EDUCATING ADULTS WITH ALL THE BENEFITS, INCLUDING GENERALLY SPEAKING MORE PROSPERITY AND GENERALLY SPEAKING MORE HAPPINESS.

THAT'S A BIG PART OF IT.

>> WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF MARRIAGE NOT JUST AS SOMETHING THAT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, WHAT WE NEED TO THINK, BUT FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT.

HOW DID YOU GET STARTED WITH THAT?

>> I WAS RAISED BY A SINGLE MOM IN CONNECTICUT IN THE '70s AND '80s.

I WAS SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF OTHER KIDS WHOSE PARENTS GOT DIVORCED.

THAT WAS MY LIFE.

THEN I WENT TO COLLEGE AND HAD THIS UNSIGHT THAT DADS WERE IMPORTANT.

AND THAT IN GENERAL, THE WAY SOCIETIES TEND TO CONNECT DADS TO THEIR KIDS WAS THROUGH MARRIAGE.

SO MY INTEREST IN THIS TOPIC WAS IN PART DO TO MY EXPERIENCE IN MY OWN LIFE.

AND AS I'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK, I'VE BEEN FOCUSING MORE ON ADULTS AND LESS ON KIDS.

AS I TALKED TO THE STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA, I'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR DATING, FINDING GUYS WORTHY OF COMMITMENT, AND THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PROSPECTS FOR MARRIAGE.

SO THIS FOCUSES MORE ON ADULTS WHERE MY PREVIOUS BOOKS WERE ON MARRIAGE AND THE KIDS' STORIES.

>> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE FIRST TIME IN THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY, LESS THAN HALF OF AMERICAN ADULTS ARE MARRIED.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF BIG FACTORS INFLUENCING THIS RETREAT FROM MARRIAGE IN AMERICAN LIFE.

ONE IS THAT WE ARE A MUCH MORE AFFLUENT SOCIETIES.

I THINK PEOPLE DEPEND LESS ECONOMICALLY ON MARRIAGE.

WE ARE A MORE SEPARATED SOCIETY.

BECAUSE IT TENDS MOVE MORE THAN OTHERS.

WE ARE INDIVIDUALISTIC.

WE TEND TO PRIORITIZE OUR FREEDOM AND OUR CHOICES.

I WOULD POINT THE FINGER AT SHIFTS IN THE ECONOMY.

WE'VE SEEN OUR ECONOMY SHIFT IN WAYS THAT HAVE DISADVANTAGED MEN WHO DON'T HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES.

THEY'RE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO BE WORKING ON A FULL-TIME BASIS TAN THAN 40 YEARS AGO.

BECAUSE IT IS STILL THE CASE THAT WOMEN LIKE TO MARRY GUYS THAT HAVE A DECENT JOB.

THAT MEN ARE SEEING THEIR FAMILY FORTUNES DECLINE IN THIS ERA IS ONE FACTOR THAT ALSO EXPLAINS WHY I THINK MARRIAGE IS IN RETREAT.

AND THEN FINALLY, WOULD SAY THAT OUR POLICIES AREN'T PARTICULARLY HELPFUL.

WE HAVE MARRIAGE PENALTIES IN THINGS LIKE MEDICAID THAT ARE PART AND PARCEL OF WHY WE'RE SEEING MARRIAGE IN WORKING CLASS XUTS NOW IS ALSO RETREATING.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FACTORS ACTING IN CONCERT TO MAKE MARRIAGE LESS CENTRAL TO OUR SOCIETY.

>> SO GIVE IT TO US STRAIGHT HERE.

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE GET MARRIED?

>> THE BIG THING IS WE'RE SOCIAL ANIMALS.

AND I THINK HE WAS RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK WHAT MATTERS IS MONEY OR YOUR WORK, YOUR STATUS.

HE WOULD SAY WE'RE SOCIAL ANIMALS.

AND IT ENDS UP BEING IMPORTANT FOR US.

IT GIVES OUR LIVES MEANING AND PURPOSE.

EVEN MORE, THE OPPORTUNITIES TO RECEIVE CARE BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, OPPORTUNITIES TO CARE FOR OTHERS.

TO CARE FOR YOUR SPOUSE AND OFTEN TO CARE FOR KIDS.

WHEN WE HAVE THESE RELATIONSHIPS OF CARE AND CONCERN THAT ARE DRIVING AND ANIMATING OUR LIVES, WE'RE BETTER OFF.

WE'RE LESS LONELY.

WE REPORT THEIR LIVES ARE MORE MEANINGFUL.

WE'RE GENERALLY HAPPIER.

AND ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE, NOTHING QUESTION THAT BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE FINANCIALLY BETTER OFF.

THIS GOES AGAINST UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF CONTEMPORARY MEDIA COMMENTARY.

WOMEN WHO ARE SINGLE GET RICHER.

THERE IS A LOT OF MRS. INFORMATION OUT THERE WHEN IT COME TO MARRIAGE.

A LOT OF WOMEN THINK THAT MARRIAGE AND MOTHERHOOD WILL MAKE THEM LESS HAPPY.

BUT THE DATA SHOWS A VERY DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

FOR MOST WOMEN AND MOST MEN, BOTH MARRIAGE AND PARENTHOOD ARE LINKED TO BETTER OUTCOMES EMOTIONALLY AND THEY'RE IN A MUCH BETTER PLACE, CHARACTERISTICS THANK TLN PEERS WHO ARE NEVER MARRIED OR DIVORCED AND NEVER REMARRIED.

>> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT A LOT OF WELL EDUCATED PEOPLE, A LOT OF MONEY, ARE PEOPLE WITH COLLEGE DEGREES AND MONEY TEND TO WHAT YOU SAY, THEY TALK LEFT AND LIVE RIGHT.

OR WALK RIGHT.

TO SAY, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THESE SORTS OF POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY LIVE THESE TRADITIONALIST VALUES.

BUT THEY DON'T STAND UP FOR THEM.

YOU SEEM QUITE ANNOYED BY THIS.

>> YES.

I THINK THEY'RE NOT USING THEIR AUTHORITY, THEIR INFLUENCE, THEIR POWER TO ADVANCE THE COMMON GOOD.

AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF A VARIETY OF TOPICS LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT.

WHEN IT COMES TO MARRIAGE AND FAMILY, I THINK IT IS CLEARLY THE CASE THAT OUR KIDS, OUR ADULTS, OUR COMMUNITIES ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLISHING.

SO THEY'RE BENEFITTING THEMSELVES PERSONALLY, EVEN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

MY NEIGHBORHOOD IS DOMINATED BY STABLE MARRIED FOLKS WHO ARE DOING WELL PROFESSIONALLY IN CHARLOTTESVILLE.

YET THE KIND OF PEOPLE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD ARE NOT LIKELY IN PUBLIC TO ADVOCATE FOR MARRIAGE OR ADVOCATE FOR THE IMPORTANCE OF STABLE FAMILIES AS PROFESSORS OR SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENTS OR EXECUTIVES, JOURNALISTS.

>> WHAT SHOULD THEY BE DOING THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING IN YOUR VIEW?

>> I THINK FOR INSTANCE WHEN IT COMES TO JOURNALISM.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" NOT TOO LONG AGO.

MARRIED MOTHERHOOD IN AMERICA IS A GAME THAT NO ONE WINS.

THIS WAS AN ARTICLE NOT REALLY BASED ON ANY STRONG EMPIRICAL RESEARCH.

YET PROMINENT PLACEMENT IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

I MENTIONED A BLOOMBERG PIECE THAT WAS WRONG.

SO PEOPLE ARE GETTING THIS FROM OUTLETS THAT ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH AND CAN LEAD THEM DOWN THE WRONG PATH.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU PLAYING IN THE BOOKS, PEOPLE HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

THEY THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE SOCIALLY ADEPT AND HAPPIER TO BEGIN WITH ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MARRIED.

OR HAVE MORE MONEY, FRANKLY.

AND YOU SAY IT IS THE OTHER WAY.

THAT BEING MARRIED MEANS YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE SOCIALLY ADEPT AND BE HAPPIER.

WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP?

YOU CAN SEE WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY, LIBESTEN.

CERTAIN GROUPS HAVE BEEN DISADVANTAGED FOR CENTURIES.

LIKE AFRICAN AMERICANS AS A GROUP HAVE A LOWER LEVEL.

>> I DO THINK THE ECONOMY IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE STORY.

WE'RE SEEING WORKING MEN, AND POOR MEN.

THERE IS A DIMENSION TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MARRIAGE IN AMERICA.

IT IS THE CASE THE WORKING CLASS AND POORER AMERICANS HAVE BEEN HIT HARD.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT.

I THINK IT IS ALSO THE CASE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF CULTURAL FACTORS MADE LESS ASTAIN AN.

IS IT MARRIAGE THE MAKES THE MAN AND THE WOMAN OR CERTAIN KINDS OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO SELECT INTO MARRIAGE?

AND I THINK IT'S BOTH.

THE MASTERS OF MARRIAGE ARE ASIAN-AMERICANS, RELIGIOUS AMERICANS, CONSERVATIVE AMERICANS, AND COLLEGE EDUCATED AMERICANS.

THEY'RE THE ONES MORE LIKELY TO GET MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE AND TO BE HAPPILY AND STAYING MARRIED IN THE SECOND.

AND AN ENDOWMENT STORY.

MORE LIKELY TO HAVE FLOURISHING RELATIONSHIPS GENERALLY.

EVEN WHEN YOU CONTROL FOR THOSE FACTORS, YOU STILL SEE THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO ARE PLAYER I HAD ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLOURISHING.

I CAN BASICALLY POINT OUT AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO ARE MARRIED ARE MARKEDLY HAPPIER AND BETTER OFF THAN THEIR AFRICAN AMERICAN PEERS WHO ARE NOT MARRIED.

I WOULD SAY IT IS MARRIAGE ITSELF, ON AVERAGE ARE FOR THE BETTER.

>> YOU SEEM SO IRRITATED WITH PEOPLE YOU CALL ELITES FOR NOT ESPOUSING THE VALUES OF MARRIAGE.

IT'S LIKE YOU SEE IT AS A FAILING OF LEADERSHIP.

I WONDER IS IT MORE A MATTER OF COURTESY?

THEY DON'T WANT OTHERS NOT EXPERIENCED IT TO FEEL BAD?

>> THAT'S A FAIR POINT.

IT IS EXTREMELY HARD FOR YOUNG ADULTS TO NAVIGATE RELATIONSHIPS SUCCESSFULLY.

AND THE VALUE OF MARRIAGE AND THE KINDS OF VIRTUES THAT WOULD HELP PEOPLE TO BE BETTER BOYFRIENDS AND GIRLFRIENDS AND SPOUSES DOWN THE ROAD, WE'RE MAKING IT HARDER FOR THEM TO REALIZE, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THIS FUNDAMENTAL GOOD.

SO WE SEE DEATH AND DESPAIR ACROSS AMERICA AND HE FINDS FROM A REGIONAL PERSPECTIVE, ONE OF THE TOP FACTORS EXPLAINS WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKELY TO END UP DYING IN THESE REGIONS ACROSS AMERICA IS THEY'RE NOT MARRIED.

THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR EXPLAINS WHY HAPPINESS IN AMERICANS IS DOWN, IT IS BECAUSE FEWER AMERICANS ARE MARRIED.

IT IS THE SHARE OF KIDS BEING RAISED IN A COMMUNITY IN TWO-PARENT FAMILIES.

SO THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL VALUE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO BE APPROACHING MARRIAGE IN A SCOLDING WAY BUT WE CAN AND SHOULD PAIN A TRUE PICTURE OF THE VALUE OF MARRIAGE FOR MOST PEOPLE AND HELP PEOPLE REALIZE THIS.

>> I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGES.

YOU DO SPEAK ABOUT THIS.

YOU SAID THE REASON YOU DON'T TALK MORE ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE PER SE IS THAT YOU DON'T THINK THE SAMPLE SIZE IS ENOUGH TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS.

THE PERCENTAGE OF MARRIED COUPLES WHO ARE SAME-SEX.

I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH COUPLES TO LOOK AT TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE MARRIAGE RATE HAS FALLEN.

YES.

YOU ALSO SAY THERE'S BEEN A 40% DECLINE IN THE DIVORCE RATE SINCE 1980.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> SO GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS IN THE BOOK.

THERE'S A CLOSING OF THE AMERICAN PART UNFOLDING WHERE FEWER ADULTS ARE DATING, MARRYING AND HAVING CHILDREN.

SEE FEWER ADULTS ARE GETTING IN THE FAMILY WAY, SO TO SPEAK.

THAT MEANS FOLKS GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING KIDS ARE MORE SELECTIVE.

MORE EDUCATED, MORE ATHLETIC, MORE RELIGIOUS TYPICALLY.

SO TRANSLATING IN PART TO LESS DIVORCE AND MORE SINGLE FAMILIES FOR KIDS.

>> FOR CENTURIES THE ONUS TO KEEP FAMILIES TOGETHER WAS ON WOMEN.

PARTLY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE INDEPENDENT SOURCES OF INCOME AND THERE WAS A POWERFUL INCENTIVE TO STAY IN RELATIONSHIP THAT'S WERE UNHEALTHY, EMOTIONALLY UNHEALTHY OR PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE IF THEY WERE.

WHAT DO WE DO DIFFERENTLY SO THAT ISN'T THE CASE.

>> >> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THE, THE RESPONSE THEIR BASICALLY IS TO SORT OF ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN BIG MISTAKES IN THE PAST.

BUT A LOT OF YOUNG SWOMEN AND MN ARE EXPRESSING THEIR CONCERNS.

I TALK ABOUT THEM IN THE BOOK.

WOMEN IN THEIR 30s AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND A GUY WHO SEEMS LIKE HE'S INTERESTED IN A LONG-TERM COMMITMENT.

THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PROSPECTS.

NOT JUST FOR MARRIAGE BUT MOTHERHOOD AS WELL.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ACCESS FOR PLENTY AND WOMEN.

THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT MARRIAGE AND ITS VALUE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE AND INTO THE POP CULTURE, SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT WOULD BE HEPPLE.

AND WING OF THE THINGS I TALKED ABOUT, ENCOURAGED TO SIDE LINE.

NOW THAT SHE'S 34, THERE ARE NO PROSPECTS FOR HUSBANDS AND KIDS, SHE'S LIKE I WISH SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME DIFFERENTLY.

HAD ENCOURAGED ME A DECADE AGO TO BE A LOT MORE INTENTIONAL ABOUT FINDING A SPOUSE.

THAT'S THE MESSAGE THAT I WANT TO OFFER TO THE BROADER POPULATION.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT POLICY.

WHAT WOULD A PRO-MARRIAGE POLICY LOOK LIKE?

>> SO I TALK ABOUT GETTING RID OF THE MARRIAGE PENALTY.

THING LIKE PLED INDICATED.

SO COUPLES I SPOKE TO, LED THE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GETTING MARRIED AND KEEPING THE KIDS ON MEDICAID.

THINK TALKING ABOUT A SUCCESS SEQUENCE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THIS IDEA THAT IF YOU GET AT LEAST A HIGH SCHOOL DEGREE, GET MARRIED BEFORE HAVING KIDS, YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLOURISHING FINANCIALLY.

AND I THINK TRYING TO ADDRESS THE FACT A LOT OF GUYS WHO ARE NOT ON THAT MORE COLLEGE TRACK ARE FLOUNDERING TODAY IN OUR HIGH SCHOOLS AND DOING MORE TO BEEF UP THEIR EDUCATION TO GET GOOD JOBS.

TO MAKE THEM MORE MARRIAGEABLE.

>> WHAT RESPONSE ARE YOU GETTING TO THE BOOK?

IT'S BEEN OUT FOR A LITTLE BIT NOW.

>> I'M STRUCK BY HOW GENERALLY POSITIVE THE MEDIA COVERAGE HAS BEEN.

THERE IS A RECOGNITION THAT MARRIAGE IS IN TROUBLE IN TERMS OF THE TRAJECTORY.

IT'S ALWAYS THE CASE IN ALL HONESTLY IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS IN THE TWO MOST RECENT PIECES IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" ON MY WORK, A LOT OF COMMENTATORS, PARTICULARLY WOMEN, ARE TALKING DOWN MARRIAGE.

AND THEY'RE EXPRESSING A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE TREATED IN MARRIAGE.

AND THEY THINK IT IS THAT A GOOD DEAL FOR WOMEN.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD A TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE.

IF I WAS TO GO ON TO YOUTUBE, I CAN GET LITERALLY, AND HAVE GOTTEN LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COMMENTS FROM MEN THAT ARE EXTREMELY NEGATIVE ABOUT WOMEN.

SO I'M SAYING THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER OUT THERE ON THE PART OF BOTH WOMEN AND MEN ABOUT THE OPPOSITE SEX.

SO WE NEED TO THINK OF WAYS TO BRING US BACK TOGETHER, TO BRIDGE THE GENDER DIVIDE, IF YOU WILL.

AND THAT'S PART OF WHAT MY BOOK IS AIMING TO DO.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY, SOME MONKEY BUSINESS TO END OUR SHOW ON.

THIS INDONESIAN ORANGUTAN HAS BEEN CAUGHT SELF-MEDICATING, INGENIOUSLY USING A LEAF TO HALEIGH HIS FACE.

WITNESSES WOUND HIM CHEWING UP THE PLANT AND APPLYING IT AS A PASTE.

AS A RESULT, HIS INJURY CLEARED UP IN LESS THAN A MONTH.

LOOK AT THAT.

A WILD LEAP FIRST AND HUGE LEAP FORWARD IN WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THESE CLEVER PRIME ALTS AND MORE THAN EVER PROVES THEY ARE NOT SO DIFFERENT FROM US.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR YOU OUR NEWS LETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."