May 13, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE UNITED STATES WARNS ISRAEL THAT PUSHING FURTHER INTO RAFAH WOULD LEAD TO ANARCHY, AS BIDEN SUSPENDS SOME HEAVY WEAPONS, RETIRED ISRAELI GENERAL AMOS YADLIN JOINS ME.

THEN -- >> PEOPLE CAN'T HOPE, BECAUSE EVERYTHING AND SO MUCH HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM THEM.

>> ARWA DAMON ON THE PSYCHOLOGICAL OBLITERATION FACING PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, AND HOW HER CHARITY INARA IS TRYING TO HELP.

ALSO AHEAD -- >>> THE PROSECUTION CALLS ITS STAR WITNESS IN THE CRIMINAL TRIAL AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

A NEW POLL PUTS PRESIDENT BIDEN IN THE HOT SEAT.

WE GET THE INSIDER TAKE ON COMMUNICATIONS AND POLITICS WITH FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY JEN PSAKI.

PLUS -- >> I THINK SOME OF THE UGLINESS ABOUT DENYING THE POSSIBILITY OF HUMANITY TO PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES IS GETTING US OFF TRACK.

>> BECOMING AMERICAN IN THE 21st CENTURY.

VETERAN BROADCASTER RAY SUAREZ TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, "WE ARE HOME."

THE HISTORY OF U.S. IMMIGRATION.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN ISRAEL, IT'S MEMORIAL DAY.

MORE SOLEMN THIS YEAR, IN THE SHADOW OF OCTOBER 7th, WHEN MORE THAN 1,200 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND HUNDREDS WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE BY HAMAS.

BUT ALSO, A MORE DIVISIVE TIME THAN USUAL, AS GOVERNMENT MINISTERS FIND THEMSELVES BOOED AND HECKLED OVER THEIR WAR IN GAZA.

NOW, IN ITS EIGHTH MONTH, MORE THAN 35,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

THERE'S NO CEASE-FIRE, OR ANY HOUSE TAJ DEAL IN SIGHT.

MANY NOW ARE ASKING WHAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT PLAN IS.

DOES IT HAVE ONE?

SO FAR, SOME AREAS THE IDF SAYS IT'S CLEARED IN GAZA ARE BEING REOCCUPIED BY HAMAS FIGHTERS, AS U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN SAYS, A FULL-ON RAFAH OFFENSIVE WOULD LEAD TO EVEN MORE ANARCHY AND CHAOS IN THE ENCLAVE.

ANALYSTS SAY ISRAEL IS LOSING ALLIES AND RISKING BECOMING A PARIAH STATE.

AMOS YADLIN IS THE FORMER CHIEF OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AND JOINS ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

MAJOR GENERAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, YOU KNOW, I MADE A WHOLE LOT OF STATEMENTS THERE.

IT IS MEMORIAL DAY, AND IT'S ONE OF THE MOST SOLEMN THAT YOU'VE HAD IN A LONG, LONG, LONG TIME.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THAT ALL THE LOSS THAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED SINCE OCTOBER 7th IS BEING RIGHTFULLY AND EFFICIENTLY -- I'M GOING TO SAY AVENGED, OR EVEN JUSTIFIED IN THESE LAST SEVEN MONTHS.

>> NO WAY -- NO DOUBT THAT THE GOALS AND THE OBJECTIVES OF THE WAR WERE FULLY JUSTIFIED.

ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY A TERROR ORGANIZATION THAT KILLED AND BURNED AND RAPED HUNDREDS OF ITS CIVILIANS IN THE WESTERN AREA, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF PROM THAT WAS NEVER DONE SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, AND ISRAEL DECIDED THAT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

AND ISRAEL WILL DESTROY HAMAS AND WILL BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

>> OKAY.

SO, ON THAT POINT -- >> ON THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE OPERATION, THERE IS NO DOUBT.

THERE IS A QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, ON WHETHER IT IS GOING WELL.

WHETHER THIS SEVEN MONTHS BY NOW WAR IS ACHIEVING THE GOALS.

AND HERE, WE CAN SAY AMID JUDGMENT THAT THE ACHIEVEMENT OF THE GOALS OF THE WAR ARE NOT UP TO THE EXPECTATION.

WE HAVE TO, BY THE WAY, THE COMPARE IT TO -- TO WARS AND CONFLICTS THAT YOU KNOW VERY WELL.

20 YEARS IN AFGHANISTAN, SEVEN YEARS IN IRAQ, EVEN TO A WORLD WAR II, IT WAS NOT MATTER OF MONTHS, IT WAS MATTER OF YEARS.

AND WHEN YOU GO TO TO A WAR WHEN THE TERROR ORGANIZATION IS IMBEDDED BETWEEN THE CIVILIANS, AND CHEERED BY CIVILIANS, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE A DECISIVE VICTORY AS THE PRIME MINISTER PUT FORWARD.

SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW TO MAKE THE OBJECTIVES OF ISRAEL UPDATED, AFTER SEVEN MONTHS.

AND I HAVE MY OWN SUGGESTIONS, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE ABSOLUTE VICTORY IS NOT ANYMORE REALISTIC GOAL.

ISRAEL SHOULD DECLARE VICTORY BY THE FACT THAT HAMAS MILITARILY FORCE CANNOT DO THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER AGAIN.

SO, THE NEVER AGAIN GOAL WAS ACHIEVED.

NOW, WE HAVE TO BRING BACK HOME THE HOSTAGES.

>> UH-HUH.

>> THE ELDERLY, THE WOMEN THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM UNBELIEVABLE CONDITION IN THE TUNNELS IN GAZA, MUST BE BRING BACK HOME.

THEN WE CAN HAVE A CEASE-FIRE IN THE SOUTH, CEASE-FIRE IN THE NORTH.

AND LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE OF THE MIDDLE EAST, TRYING TO NORMALIZE RELATIONS WITH THE SAUDIS AND TO MAKE THE COALITIONS THAT STOP THE ATTACK ON ISRAEL, THE BARRAGE OF HUNDRED OF MISSILES.

THIS WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE COALITION AGAINST IRAN OTHER ACTIVITIES, AND AT THE TOP OF THEM, THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU THEN, MAJOR GENERAL, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE JUST TALKED ABOUT HOW THAT COALITION, YOU KNOW, WAS SUCCESSFUL, AND THAT HOW ISRAEL SORT OF REGAINED SOME STANDING IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AFTER THAT.

WHICH IT HAD BEEN LOSING, WHICH YOU KNOW VERY WELL, AND IT NOW CONTINUES TO LOSE AGAIN.

AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK THEN OF ANALYSTS, I MEAN, EVEN AMERICANS WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT ISRAEL, BY ITS ACTIONS IN GAZA, WHICH YOU'VE ALREADY SAID THE GOALS ARE NOT BEING REACHED, IS MAKING ITSELF INTO A PARIAH AND ISOLATED STATE.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT ALMOST EIGHT MONTHS INTO THIS WAR?

>> OF COURSE I'M CONCERNED.

HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO COMPARE AND TO ASK OURSELVES WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE.

WE CANNOT DECLARE VICTORY AND GO HOME, AS THE AMERICANS HAVE DONE FROM VIETNAM, HAVING THE PACIFIC OCEAN BETWEEN VIETNAM AND AMERICA, AND DECLARE VICTORY OR DECLARE EVEN DEFEAT IN AFGHANISTAN AND GOING HOME.

WE HAVE THIS TERROR ORGANIZATION, JIHADIST, NAZI ORGANIZATION, THAT WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL.

AND DEMONSTRATED IT VERY WELL.

ON THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER.

SO, WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY, HOW TO CONTINUE AND DEAL WITH THIS HAMAS GOVERNMENT IN GAZA.

>> OKAY.

>> AND IN THIS RESPECT -- IN THIS RESPECT, I DO THINK THAT WE DON'T WANT TO CONTROL GAZA, WE DON'T WANT HAMAS TO CONTROL GAZA.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS WEAK, CORRUPT, AND NOT LEGITIMATE IN THE EYE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

BUT WE HAVE TO FIND A CONFIGURATION BASED ON PALESTINIAN -- BASED ON ARAB MENTORSHIP.

EGYPT, UAE, SAUDI ARABIA, THAT WILL TURN GAZA INTO ABU DHABI, SINGAPORE, SOME KIND OF A DIFFERENT AREA THAN IT IS TODAY, A TERRORIST STATE.

>> SO, DO YOU THINK THEN THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT, THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS PROSECUTING THIS WAR, AGREES WITH WHAT YOU SAID, THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOME KIND OF OVERARCHING POLITICAL SOLUTION TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID?

BECAUSE THESE COUNTRIES WHO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED, UNLESS THERE IS A PROPER POLITICAL SOLUTION THAT TALKS ABOUT A PALESTINIAN STATE, AND SELF-DETERMINATION AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT GO WITH IT.

SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE NO -- NO -- NO WORD THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT IS PLANNING ON DOING THAT.

IN FACT, QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

I'M STILL WITH MY GOVERNMENT ON THE GOALS OF THE OPERATION.

TO DESTROY HAMAS, AND TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU HAVE A MILITARY CAMPAIGN, YOU HAVE TO ACCOMPLISH IT WITH A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN.

AND THE POLITICAL CAMPAIGN IS CALLING FOR, AS I SAID, REVISED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY WITH ARABS AND THE ARABS MUST HAVE A SKIN IN THE GAME.

THEY CANNOT ONLY OBSERVE.

IF THEY WANT TO SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI ISSUE, OR AT LEAST TO ADVANCE IT TOWARDS THE GOAL OF SOLVING THE CONFLICT, THEY HAVE TO COME AND HELP.

AND WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY, THEY ARE OBSERVING, AND ISRAEL AND HAMAS ARE PLAYING THE GAME.

SO, IF MY GOVERNMENT WAS SMARTER, THEY WOULD CALL FOR A POLITICAL -- ISRAEL WOULD INSIST IN THIS CASE AFTER THE LESSONS OF THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, ON SECURITY, DEMILITARIZED PALESTINIAN ENTITY, BUT ALSO CHANGING OF THE CULTURE.

CULTURE OF HATRED, CULTURE OF INCITEMENT, CULTURE OF PAYING TERRORISTS.

ALL THIS SHOULD BE PUT AS A CONDITION, OR, A PERFORMANCE-BASED ADVANCEMENT INTO A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

>> LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GOALS, THE GOAL, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THE MAIN GOAL FOR YOUR PEOPLE IS TO GET THEIR HOSTAGES BACK.

AND THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

NO CEASE-FIRE, NO REMAINING, YOU KNOW, THE REMAINING MORE THAN 100 ARE STILL -- ARE STILL, AS YOU SAID, LIVING THAT TERRIBLE LIFE, WHEREVER THEY'RE BEING HELD.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, WE'RE WITNESSING FROM ABROAD, ANYWAY, WHAT LOOKS TO BE WHACK A MOLE, YOU KNOW, YOU GO TO -- WHETHER IT'S AL SHIFA, THE NORTH, DECLARE SOME KIND OF VICTORY, LEAVE, AND UP POPS HAMAS AGAIN, FILLING A VACUUM.

THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN HAS SAID, ISRAEL IS ON THE TRAJECTORY, POTENTIALLY, TO INHERIT AN INSURGENCY WITH MANY ARMED HAMAS LEFT, OR, IF IT LEAVES, A VACUUM FILLED BY CHAOS, FILLED BY ANARCHY AND PROBABLY REFILLED BY HAMAS.

SO, WHAT WOULD YOU ADVICE YOUR GOVERNMENT, AS A BETTER MILITARY OPERATION, BETTER STRATEGY HERE?

TACTICS?

>> YEAH, I'M SAYING, FIRST OF ALL, BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

WE HAVE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.

IF HAMAS WILL GO BACK TO BUILD ITS MILITARY FORCE, WE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

AND IN A WAY, THE FACT THAT IN THE WEST BANK, THERE IS A PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, BUT SECURITY IS DELEGATED TO ISRAEL, BECAUSE WE CANNOT HAVE TERROR 12 MILE FROM TEL AVIV.

AND THIS MODEL SHOULD BE DEVELOPED IN GAZA, WHENEVER HAMAS IS GONE.

YOU ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, HAMAS IS NOT GOING YET, AND BLINKEN SAYING THAT HAMAS, POINTING THAT HAMAS IS COMING BACK, ON THE OTHER HAND, IS UNHAPPY WITH ISRAEL CONTINUING THE WAR.

AND ALSO SAYING THAT ISRAEL GAVE A VERY PAINFUL AND GENEROUS PARAMETERS FOR A HOSTAGES DEAL AND HAMAS REJECTED IT.

SO, THEY LEFT NO OTHER CHOICE BUT GOING BACK TO THESE AREAS, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO OCCUPY GAZA.

BUT WE DON'T WANT HAMAS TO BE THERE.

AND AS I SAID, IN AFGHANISTAN, IT TOOK 20 YEARS.

AND YOU HAVEN'T ACHIEVED THE GOAL.

INCH MOSUL, IT TOOK NINE MONTHS, 12 MONTHS, AND YOU ACHIEVED THE GOAL.

IF YOU FIGHT A TERROR ORGANIZATION THAT USES THE POPULATION AS A HUMAN SHIELD AND DOESN'T CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO 2 MILLION GAZANS, 2 MILLION GAZANS ARE NOT IN THEIR HOME, MOVING FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND SINWAR DOESN'T CARE.

SO, WHY PUT IT ON ISRAEL?

>> MAJOR GENERAL, TO BE FAIR, YOU KNOW, SINWAR, WE KNOW THE KIND OF PERSON HE IS, AND I'M ASKING YOU, FROM -- AS A DEMOCRATIC STATE, WITH RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, WHETHER YOU THINK IT'S OKAY FOR ISRAEL BY ITSELF OWN -- BY ITSELF OWN, YOU KNOW, CALCULATIONS, HAS AT LEAST A 2 TO 1 RATIO OF KILLING CIVILIANS VERSUS HAMAS, AND RIGHT NOW, YOU'VE GOT A POTENTIAL FULL-SCALE INVASION, AND ALL OF THIS IS CREATING REAL -- REAL HATRED, MORE HATRED FOR ISRAEL AND FOR THE UNITED STATES.

THE U.S. PRESIDENT IS EVEN SUSPENDING THE USE OF 2,000-POUND BOMBS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT THEM USED AGAIN ON CIVILIANS.

THIS IS A REALLY BIG PROBLEM, ISN'T IT, FOR YOU?

ISN'T THERE A WAY TO GO AFTER THE TERRORISTS WITHOUT KILLING THE CIVILIANS?

AND LET'S NOT JUST TALK ABOUT HUMAN SHIELDS AGAIN.

IS THERE A TARGETED WAY OF DOING IT?

>> ISRAEL IS FIGHTING ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THE RATIO IS NOT 1 TO 2.

THE UNITED NATIONS OFFICE OF COOPERATION HUMANITARIAN CAME WITH THE RIGHT NUMBERS WHICH IS 1 TO 1.

IT'S BETTER THAN THE AMERICAN NUMBERS IN MOSUL.

IT'S BETTER THAN THE AMERICAN NUMBERS IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND I'VE NOT MENTIONED TOKYO OR DRESDEN.

SO, IT IS DIFFICULT.

BUT ISRAEL IS DOING ALL IT CAN TO MINIMIZE THE FACT THAT INNOCENT CIVILIANS ARE ATTACKED.

WE NEVER ATTACK INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

WE NEVER BURN THEM, WE NEVER RAPE THEM, WE NEVER KILL CHILDREN IN FRONT OF THEIR KIDS, AS HAMAS HAVE DONE.

SO, WE TRY TO MINIMIZE IT AS MUCH AS WE CAN, BUT IT'S NOT EASY, BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY HAMAS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.

THE EMBARGO ON THE 2,000-POUND BOMBS IS A HUGE MISTAKE, BECAUSE ISRAEL IS NOT USING THEM NOW IN GAZA.

WE DO NEED THEM AGAINST HEZBOLLAH, AGAINST IRAN.

THE U.S. INTEREST ARE, IN A WAY, COUNTERPRODUCTIVE HERE.

THEY ARE NOT ADVANCING THEM.

IF THEY DON'T WANT A REGIONAL WAR, WHY TO ENCOURAGE HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN BY TELLING THEM THAT ISRAEL HAVE NO MUNITION?

IN A WAY, THEY EVEN ENCOURAGE SINWAR.

SAY, OKAY, THE AMERICANS AND THE ISRAELIS ARE NOW FIGHTING EACH OTHER, THIS IS GOOD FOR SINWAR, FROM STRATEGIC POINT OF VIEW.

SO, I THINK THIS IS A HUGE MISTAKE.

AND THE AMERICANS, IN A WAY, DISTURB THEIR OWN -- THEIR OWN OBJECTIVE.

AND THE MIDDLE EAST IS LOOKING.

THE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER ALLIED COUNTRIES OF AMERICA ARE ASKING THEMSELVES, IS THAT THE WAY AMERICA IS USING ITS ALLY?

IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA, AND I HOPE IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

>> MAJOR GENERAL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM TEL AVIV.

>>> AND NOW, WE'RE GOING TO TURN FOR MORE ON THE HUMANITARIAN DISASTER TO ARWA DAMON, OUR FORMER COLLEAGUE.

SHE'S RECENTLY VISITED GAZA, WHERE HER CHARITY INARA HAS BEEN HELPING SET UP MEDICAL STATIONS AND SHELTERS.

AND YOU ARE HERE WITH US IN THE STUDIO.

LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE THE GENERAL SAID SOMETHING INTERESTING, WELL, IT'S COLD, BUT YOU'VE REPORTED ON IT, AND THAT IS THE RATIO AND THE LENGTH OF TIME IT TOOK TO ELIMINATE ISIS FROM MOSUL.

YOU COVERED THAT.

>> I DID.

AND IF WE WANT TO LOOK AT THIS PURELY FROM A NUMBERS PERSPECTIVE, THE OFFENSIVE IN MOSUL AGAINST ISIS, WHICH LASTED ABOUT 18 MONTHS, KILLED AT THE TOP SORT OF ESTIMATE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, AROUND 18,000, 20,000, SO, ISRAEL'S BY FAR SURPASSED THAT, AND THAT WAS A VERY HEAVILY, DENSELY POPULATED AREA.

AND THIS WHOLE COMPARISON TO COMBATANT TO CIVILIAN, IT'S A VERY SKEWED WAY OF LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS, BECAUSE IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT THE OVERALL DEATH TOLL.

IT'S ABOUT DEATH PER STRIKE.

IT'S ABOUT ALL OF THOSE STRIKES THAT ISRAEL HAS LAUNCHED, USING THESE MASSIVE 1,000, 2,000-POUND BOMBS, THAT HAVE LEVELED ENTIRE BLOCKS, ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS, TO GO AFTER ONE OR TWO FIGHTERS.

AND SO, YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF WELL-DOCUMENTED ISOLATED INCIDENTS WHERE, YOU KNOW, DOZENS OF CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED AND SOME UPWARDS OF 100, TO, WHAT, GO AFTER ONE OR TWO LOW LEVEL FIGHTERS?

SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU WENT INTO DO AND I'LL ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE GEOPOLITICS IN A MOLT.

BUT YOU WENT IN RIGHT AFTER THE STRIKE ON THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN, WHICH ISRAEL ADMITS WAS A TERRIBLE MISTAKE, AND THERE SHOULD BE SOME INVESTIGATIONS INTO IT.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE KILLED, PALESTINIANS AND INTERNATIONALS.

I MEAN -- IT HAPPENED JUST BEFORE YOU WENT IN, RIGHT?

WHAT GAVE YOU THE COURAGE TO ACTUALLY GO IN AS A HUMANITARIAN A FEW DAYS LATER?

>> THE SAME THING THAT DROVE YOU TO THE MANY WAR ZONES THAT YOU'VE BEEN TO AND THE KIND THAT DRIVES US TO GO TO THESE PLACES, BECAUSE THERE'S THIS RECOGNITION THAT YOU KIND OF NEED TO DO SOMETHING -- >> BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU'RE DOING HUMANITARIAN WORK, RATHER THAN EYEWITNESS WORK.

>> YES, YES, BUT THERE'S EVEN WITHIN THE HUMANITARIAN SPACE, YOU STILL NEED A LOEFL OF LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING TO BEST PROVIDE.

THE WAY THAT WE OPERATE, OUR TEAMS ARE ALL OBVIOUSLY GAZAN.

THIS IS THEM, IT'S THEIR PEOPLE, THEY'RE THE ONES THAT ARE KIND OF DECIDE WHAT THE PROGRAM NEEDS TO BE, WHAT WE NEED TO DELIVER, AND HOW IT NEEDS TO BE DELIVERED.

BUT THERE IS ALSO THAT ADDED VALUE OF BEING IN THERE SO THAT WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO BEST PROVIDE THEM.

AND SO THAT WE CAN BETTER UNDERSTAND, LIKE, HOW IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO MOVE AID AROUND?

WHAT DOES DENSELY POPULATED REALLY MEAN IN THIS CONTEXT?

AND HOW DO WE NAVIGATE THAT AS HUMANITARIANS?

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING, AMOS YADLIN SAID ISRAEL IS FIGHTING THIS ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF WAR, BUT ONE OF THEM IS TO GET CIVILIANS OUT OF THE WAY.

AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE TONY BLINKEN HAS SAID, AS YET THEY HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANY CREDIBLE PLAN TO MOVE CIVILIANS OUT OF THE WAY IN CASE OF A FULL-SCALE INVASION OF RAFAH.

>> THERE HAS NEVER BEEN, TO DATE, A SINGLE LEVEL OF COORDINATION BETWEEN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THE IDF, AND HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS.

SO, IF YOU'RE HEARING THE ISRAELIS TELLING CIVILIANS TO MOVE SOMEWHERE, AND THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE SHELTER AND PROPER HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE AND MEDICAL ASSISTANCE WAITING FOR THEM, THAT IS NOT TRUE.

>> AND WHAT DID YOU FIND WHEN YOU WENT IN THERE?

WAS THERE ANY IN THE PLACES YOU WENT TO?

AND YOU WERE IN THAT AREA.

>> I WAS ACROSS -- >> WHICH IS WHERE THEY'RE TELLING THEM TO GO NOW.

SEASIDE AREA.

>> AND IT WAS NEVER A PROPER HUMANITARIAN ZONE.

IT IS SAND DUNES.

IT IS -- THERE'S NOTHING THERE.

THERE'S NOTHING THERE.

THERE ISN'T EVEN ENOUGH SOLID GROUND UNDERNEATH YOU TO BE ABLE TO PROPERLY SET SOMETHING UP.

THERE IS ZERO SANITATION.

THERE IS ZERO ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER.

THERE'S VERY LITTLE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

IT'S COMPLETE AND TOTAL CHAOS.

THERE'S A HANDFUL OF MEDICAL POINTS THAT ARE THERE, BUT IT'S NOT A HUMANITARIAN ZONE, BUT TO TELL PEOPLE TO GO THERE BECAUSE IT'S A HUMANITARIAN ZONE THAT'S BEEN EXPANDED, IT'S AN EXTRA LEVEL OF UNNECESSARY CRUELTY.

>> WE'RE HEARING THAT FROM PEOPLE TRYING TO FLEE.

YOU WERE VERY -- I THINK YOU ARE FOCUSING A LOT ON THE CHILDREN, AND PARTICULARLY ON MENTAL HEALTH, AND YOU WROTE IN AN OP-ED FOR CNN, ESSENTIALLY, EVERYBODY APPEARS TO BE A ZOMBIE ON THE BRINK OF INSANITY.

HERE'S WHAT YOU WROTE.

THE CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT IS A DAGGER PLUNGED REPEATLY INTO THE GAPING WOUND OF A CRUSHED PSYCHE.

THE SOUNDTRACK OF EVERY NIGHT AND DAY IS THE RELENTLESS BUZZ OF DRONES THAT TAUNTS, OH, YOU THINK YOU'VE SURVIVED, JUST WAIT.

DEATH CAN STILL COME.

SO, HOW DID THAT SHOW UP IN THE CHILDREN, OR THE PARENTS WHO YOU SPOKE TO?

>> YOU SEE IT IN THEIR FACE.

PEOPLE EYES ARE DEAD.

THAT SPARK ISN'T THERE.

MOVEMENTS ARE VERY LETHARGIC.

THEY'RE VERY MECHANICAL.

AND THE CHILDREN AND THE ACTIVITIES THAT WE DO, IT CENTERS AROUND PLAY, SO, YOU'RE TRYING TO COAX THAT BACK A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THEN YOU ALSO SEE IT IN PEOPLE'S TONE OF VOICE.

THERE WAS THIS ONE MOTHER I MET AND SHE COMES UP AND SHE SAYS, LISTEN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT MY 7-YEAR-OLD SON, SHE'S SCREAMING EVERY NIGHT, AND SHE'S BEEN THIS WAY SINCE HE SAW HIS SISTER DECAPITATED, HER HEAD WAS BLOWN OFF BY A BOMB.

WHAT WAS EVEN MORE JARRING THAN THAT WAS SAY, SHE WAS THERE, SHE SAW THIS HAPPEN TO HER DAUGHTER, AND SHE DELIVERED THE STORY IN A MONOTONE.

AND THAT'S WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT SHE HAS HAD TO SHOVE ALL THIS PAIN DOWN SO DEEP THAT SHE CAN'T EVEN LET EMOTION CRACK THROUGH, BECAUSE IF SHE DOES, SHE'S GOING TO SHATTER INTO A MILLION PIECES.

AND SO MANY PEOPLE THERE HAVE HAD TO DO THAT.

THEY'VE HAD TO SHOVE THIS ALL DOWN.

>> THE LITTLE CHILDREN DON'T KNOW HOW TO DA THAT.

>> THEY DON'T.

SO, IT MANIFESTS IN ANGER AND BED WETTING AND, YOU KNOW, AN INABILITY TO SLEEP, AN INABILITY TO FOCUS.

AND ADD TO ALL OF THAT, YOU ALSO HAVE THE REALITY THAT, YOU KNOW, AS A CHILD, WHEN WE'RE SCARED, WE GO TO OUR PARENTS.

PARENTS CAN'T PROTECT THEIR CHILDREN ANYMORE.

AND THE CHILDREN KNOW THIS.

PARENTS DON'T BOTHER TELLING THEIR CHILDREN, YOU'RE GOING TO BE OKAY, ANYMORE, OR, WE'RE GOING TO BE SAFE.

>> SO, WHAT CAN YOU DO IN THE LIMITED TIME, IN THE LIMITED SPACE, THE LIMITED NUMBER OF PEOPLE YOU CAN REACH, YOU KNOW, TO TRY TO HELP THESE CHILDREN?

I MEAN, THERE'S A LITTLE PLAY, A LITTLE -- HOW DO YOU GET THEM TO HAVE A LITTLE BREAK FROM THIS?

>> I MEAN, SO, WHEN WE'RE HEALTH INTERVENTION IN THIS CONTEXT, WHEN THE TRAUMA IS STILL JOG GONE AND WHEN THE TRIGGERS ARE STILL ONGOING.

YOU CAN'T GO TOO DEEP.

YOU CAN'T RIP OPEN A WOUND IF IT CAN BE RETRIGGERED, IF YOU ARE NOT THERE TO SORT OF HELP A CHILD CLOSE IT AGAIN, AND THE SAME GOES FOR ADULTS, SO, IT IS VERY MUCH ABOUT CREATING A DISTRACTION.

THROUGH PLAY, BUT ALSO PLAY IS HOW CHILDREN EXPRESS THEMSELVES.

THEY DON'T HAVE VOCABULARY.

THEY USE PLAY.

BUT IT'S STILL VERY, VERY SURFACE.

AND THE THING IS, CHRISTIANE, YOU DO FEEL LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS SMALL.

>> AND I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME PICTURES HERE THAT YOU HAVE SENT US FROM YOUR TRIP.

I MEAN, WHAT SHOULD WE KNOW ABOUT THESE PEOPLE -- >> THOSE ARE -- THAT IS ACTUAL LY MAWASI BEFORE MORE PEOPLE ARRIVED TO IT.

YOU WALK THROUGH THERE, AND YOU ARE JUST SURROUNDED BY PATIENTS WHO ARE THROWING THEIR KIDS AT YOU, BECAUSE THEY'RE MALNOURISHED, THEY'RE LIMP,ISTLESS, A FUNGAL RASH, EVERYONE HAS A FEVER, EVERYONE NEEDS FOOD, EVERYONE NEEDS EVERYTHING.

YOU MEAN, IT IS SUFFOCATING, THE NEED THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS THERE, AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP REMINDING YOURSELF OF, JUST BECAUSE I CAN'T CREATE MASSIVE CHANGE FOR LARGE NUMBERS, THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM WHAT I'M ABLE TO DO FOR SMALLER NUMBERS, AND YOU HAVE TO KIND OF RESHIFT YOUR FOCUS, AND RECOGNIZE THE MAGNITUDE OF THE PROBLEM, BUT THE LITTLE PIECE THAT YOU CAN STILL -- >> AND DO YOU HAVE TO RESHIFT YOUR FOCUS FROM BEING, YOU KNOW, WAR CORRESPONDENT, TO BEING A HUMANITARIAN?

HOW DID IT FEEL?

>> IT'S BEEN INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

I THINK SPECIFICALLY IN THE GAZA CONTEXT, WHERE I WASN'T EXPECTING WAS THAT SAME SORT OF LEVEL OF ANXIETY GOING INTO A DANGER ZONE AS A HUMANITARIAN AS I FELT AS A JOURNALIST, BUT YOU DO VERY MUCH FEEL AS IF, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE STILL BEING TARGETED.

BUT A LOT OF IT ALSO GOES BACK TO, YOU KNOW, EVEN IN THE HUMANITARIAN SPACE, WE'RE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

WE'RE STILL TRYING TO PROBLEM SOLVE, EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, IN GAZA, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE THE GOAL POSTS AREN'T JUST SHIFTING ALL THE TIME, THEY DON'T EXIST.

AND YOU'RE ALSO STILL TRYING TO GET THAT, YOU KNOW, DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT IS THAT THE PEOPLE NEED, AND WHAT THE EMOTIONAL CONTEXT IS, SO THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO BEST SERVE IT.

>> AND TREATING THOSE PEOPLE.

>> YEAH.

>> ARWA DAMON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, IN AMERICA, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, WAS BACK IN THE COURTROOM TODAY TO HEAR HIS THEN FIXER MICHAEL COHEN TESTIFY ABOUT THE HUSH MONEY PAYMENT AT THE HEART OF THE CRIMINAL CASE AGAINST HIM.

ON THE STAND, CHEN SAID THAT HE SOMETIMES LIED FOR TRUMP.

OVER THE WEEKEND, THE FORMER PRESIDENT HIT THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN NEW JERSEY, AND AT ONE POINT, SPUN OFF INTO THIS STRANGE STATEMENT.

>> HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN "THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS?"

THE LATE, GREAT, HANNIBAL LECTER.

HE OFTENTIMES WOULD HAVE A FRIEND FOR DINNER.

REMEMBER THE LAST SCENE?

EXCUSE ME, I'M ABOUT TO HAVE A FRIEND FOR DINNER.

I'M ABOUT TO HAVE A FRIEND FOR DINNER.

BUT HANNIBAL LECTER.

THE LATE, GREAT HANNIBAL LECTER.

WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING RELEASED INTO OUR COUNTRY THAT WE DON'T WANT INTO OUR COUNTRY, AND THEY ARE COMING IN TOTALLY UNCHECKED AND TOTALLY UNVETTED.

>> SO, THAT IS ALL INCREDIBLY HARD TO DECIPHER.

JUST TO BE CLEAR, TRUMP WAS SUPER CONFUSED, FIRSTLY, HANNIBAL IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER, AND THE ACTOR WHO PLAYED HIM, ANTHONY HOPKINS, IS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE.

BUT A NEW POLL SHOWS TRUMP LEADING PRESIDENT BIDEN IN FOUR KEY SWING STATES, AFTER MONTHS OF BIDEN CAMPAIGNS.

SO, WHAT'S GOING ON?

IS THIS A COMMUNICATION SNAFU FOR A PRESIDENT WHO HAS PASSED MORE LEGISLATION AND BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN MOST IN HIS FIRST TERM, OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?

JEN PSAKI WAS PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FIRST PRESS SECRETARY WHEN HE ENTERED THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2020, AND SHE'S OPENING UP ABOUT IT ALL IN HER NEW BOOK.

"SAY MORE."

AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. JEN PSAKI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YEAH, SO, WHAT IS "SAY MORE?"

WHO SHOULD BE SAYING MORE?

WE THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE YOU SERVE SHOULD BE SAYING MORE.

>> OF COURSE.

THAT IS YOUR ROLE AS A JOURNALIST.

YOU KNOW, "SAY MORE" IS ABOUT HOW TO SPEAK MORE WITH IMPACT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT SAYING MORE WORDS, NOT EVEN ABOUT SAYING IT LOUDER, IT'S ABOUT HOW TO HAVE IMPACT WITH WHAT YOU CONVEY.

NOT JUST FROM A PODIUM, EVERYBODY WON'T DO THAT, FROM PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS YOU HAVE, WITH FAMILY, WITH FRIENDS, EVEN IN MEETINGS, IF YOU WORK IN COMPANIES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOVERNMENT OR POLITICS OR MEDIA.

>> SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU THAT, BECAUSE IN YOUR BOOK AND IN SOME OF THE INTERVIEWS SINCE IT'S PUBLISHED, YOU BASICALLY TALK ABOUT THE MESSAGING OF THE TWO PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND OTHERS, AND YOURSELF TALK ABOUT PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SO, YOU TALK ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, BEYOND THE LEGAL, YOU KNOW, WOES THAT HE'S HAD.

HE SAID WHAT'S EFFECTIVE ABOUT HIS MESSAGE, WHICH I THINK IS DANGEROUS, IS THAT IT'S SIMPLE AND CONSISTENT.

THE SIMPLICITY OF IT, THE EMOTIONAL CONNECTION, IS DANGEROUS AND DAMAGING AS IT IS, IS, I THINK, WHAT IS EFFECTIVE.

SO, I'VE STATED WHAT YOU THINK.

WHY IS IT THAT THE OTHER SIDE, YOUR SIDE, HASN'T YET FIGURED OUT, SINCE 2016, AN ALTERNATIVE STRONG, SIMPLE MESSAGE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE OTHER PART ABOUT TRUMP'S MESSAGE THAT'S EFFECTIVE, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT IT'S APPEALING TO MANY AMERICANS WHO FEEL AGGRIEVED, WHO FEEL LET DOWN, AND THAT IS SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, TRUMP CAMPAIGNS AND BEHAVES IN THE COURTROOM AS THE VICTIM, AND THAT IS ENDEARING TO PEOPLE OUT THERE, AS DANGEROUS AS I SAID, AND I BELIEVE THAT RHETORIC IS.

I THINK A CHALLENGE -- THERE'S A COUPLE OF CHALLENGES FOR THECOMMUNICATIONS TEAM RIGHT NOW.

ONE OF THEM IS HAVING YOUR OPPONENT SITTING IN A COURTROOM BLOCKS OUT A LOT OF THE COVERAGE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S HARD TO BREAK THROUGH WITH YOUR MESSAGE.

THAT IS ONE.

THE SECOND IS, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS TO DECIDE TO RUN AGAINST.

DO YOU RUN AGAINST HIS LEGAL WOES?

DO YOU RUN AGAINST POLICY ISSUES?

DO YOU RUN AGAINST HIM AS A CHARACTER?

AND THERE HASN'T REALLY BEEN A LANDING ON WHICH ONE IS RIGHT.

THE THIRD PIECE, WHICH I THINK THEY COULD DO MORE OF THIS HERE, IS REALLY THE CONTRAST.

THEY'VE DONE SOME OF THIS, THEY -- THE BIDEN TEAM AND PRESIDENT BIDEN DID AN EVENT IN WISCONSIN LAST WEEK, A PLACE WHERE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD PROMISED TO BRING BACK JOBS, THAT DIFFERENT HAPPEN, THAT'S A DIRECT CONTRAST, THAT IS THE KIND OF WAY TO BREAK THROUGH.

AND ALSO SHOW THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WHAT ALTERNATIVE YOU'RE PRESENTING.

BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE CONTRAST.

AND THAT'S THE KEY THING IN MY CAMPAIGN, AND CERTAINLY A YEAR LIKE THIS YEAR.

>> SO, LOOK, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN GAVE WHAT MOST PEOPLE SAID WAS, YOU KNOW, A KICKING STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS, HE GAVE A VERY, YOU KNOW, LIVELY AND FUNNY WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS DINNER SPEECH, AND YET, IN AN INTERVIEW THAT I LISTENED TO ON "THE NEW YORK TIMES" PODCAST, AN INFLUENTIAL BLACK MEDIA PERSONALITY WHO HAS A LOT TO SAY ABOUT THE CURRENT ELECTION, SAYS THE DEMOCRATIC MESSAGING, QUOTE, SUCKS, THE LANGUAGE OF POLITICS IS DEAD, AND, OF COURSE, HE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE SAYING THAT.

>> YEAH, LOOK, I THINK COMMUNICATING IS ABOUT APPEALING TO PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS.

PULLING AT THEIR HEART STRINGS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT DATA POINTS AND SOMETIMES THERE'S A LITTLE TOO MUCH RELIANCE ON THAT BY A RANGE OF DEMOCRATS, INCLUDING THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ACCOMPLISHMENTS, NECESSARILY.

NOBODY IN THE COUNTRY WANTS TO KIND OF LOOK THROUGH A FIVE-PAGE ACCOMPLISHMENT FACT SHEET ABOUT THE I.R.A., RIGHT?

THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE GOING TO IMPACT THEM.

THIS REMINDS ME, EVEN THOUGH THE ECONOMY AND THE ECONOMIC DATA IS ACTUALLY SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN IT WAS IN 2012, BUT I WORKED FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA WHEN HE RAN FOR RE-ELECTION.

THIS PERIOD, YOU REMEMBER WELL, I'M SURE, THE ECONOMY WAS STILL RECOVERING.

AND THE ARGUMENT THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA MADE AT THE TIME WAS THAT, I'M GOING TO BE THE ONE FIGHTING FOR YOU, AND IF YOU GIVE ME ANOTHER FOUR YEARS, I'LL CONTINUE TO MAKE IT BETTER.

AND THAT NEEDS TO BE CENTER IN THIS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT DATA, EVEN.

IT'S ABOUT PULLING ON THE HEART STRINGS OF PEOPLE, AND REMINDING THEM THAT YOU'RE THE GUY FIGHTING FOR THEM, AND THE OTHER GUY WON'T.

SO, THAT'S THE PIECE I THINK IT NEEDS TO MOVE MORE TOWARDS.

>> SO, YOU BROUGHT UP PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND, OF COURSE, YOU WORKED FOR HIM, AS WELL.

SO, I WANT YOU TO REACT TO THIS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT DURING HIS SECOND ELECTION CAMPAIGN, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WAS A PRETTY MEDIOCRE FIRST DEBATE PERFORMANCE, AND SUDDENLY EVERYBODY JUST GOT -- >> YES.

THE WHOLE THING GOT REBOOTED AND, OF COURSE, HE WON RE-ELECTION, BUT AGAIN, CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, I GUESS HE'S THE LAST PERSON I LISTENED TO ON THIS, SAID -- >> I GUESS, YEAH.

>> THAT HE DOESN'T FEEL LIKE -- AND THESE ARE HIS WORDS, I DON'T FEEL LIKE OBAMA'S ON THE FRONT LINES.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE HE'S IN ACTIVE DUTY.

SAYING THAT HE NEEDS TO BE OUT THERE MORE FOR BIDEN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

COULDN'T BIDEN BENEFIT FROM -- I KNOW HE'S DOING FUND-RAISERS AND ALL THAT VERY SUCCESSFULLY, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE TEAM NEEDS TO DO?

>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK THAT FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA WILL BE OUT THERE, AND I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE FEARFUL ABOUT A TRUMP SECOND TERM OR ANOTHER TERM WANT HIM TO BE OUT THERE.

THE OTHER TRUTH HERE, AND HE'S VERY EFFECTIVE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA, HE'S ALSO VERY STILL POPULAR WITH INDEPENDENTS.

MORE POPULAR BECAUSE HE'S A FORMER PRESIDENT.

THAT'S OFTEN HOW IT GOES.

BUT THE OTHER TRUTH IS, YOU CAN'T TRANSLATE.

POPULARITY DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE, RIGHT?

IF IT DID, THEN HILLARY CLINTON WOULD BE PRESIDENT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF FACTORS HERE.

BUT PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS OUT A LOT, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE OUT THERE FOR HER.

IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE.

THIS IS ULTIMATELY ON PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS CAMPAIGN TEAM.

WHAT WILL HELP IS FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA BEING OUT THERE TO DRIVE OUT THE VOTE, TO GET PEOPLE OUT DURING KEY REGISTRATION TIMES, TO BE OUT THERE AS A KEY SURROGATE WHEN PEOPLE ARE REALLY TUNING IN POST-MEMORIAL DAY.

AND THE MORE HE DOES, I AGREE, THE BETTER, BUT RIGHT NOW, IT'S ULTIMATELY UP TO THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, AND TO PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF, TO REALLY CONTINUE TO LAY THE GROUNDWORK.

>> SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT "SAY MORE."

SO, HAVE NOW BEEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE, YOU'VE BEEN THE PRESS SECRETARY, AND NOW YOU HAVE YOUR OWN PROGRAMS ON MSNBC.

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT WHAT JOURNALISTS AND BROADCASTERS DO VERSUS WHAT A GOOD PRESS SECRETARY DOES?

>> SO MANY THINGS, BUT ONE THING THAT ALWAYS COMES TO MIND, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT IT'S MUCH HARDER TO ACTUALLY CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW THAN IT IS TO PARTICIPATE IN ONE.

IN THAT YOU HAVE TO -- AND YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR SO MANY YEARS, YOU MAY FIND THAT TO BE A FUNNY THING TO SAY, BUT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO KIND OF DRIVE THE CONVERSATION FORWARD AND LISTEN IN A WAY FOR SOMETHING INTERESTING AND UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT TO -- TO HAPPEN DURING THE CONVERSATION.

AND ADJUST AS NEEDED.

AND WHEN YOU'RE IN AN INTERVIEW AND YOU'RE PARTICIPATING IN IT, YOU'RE MORE -- YOU'RE NOT PASSIVE, BUT YOU ARE KIND OF GOING THROUGH THE JOURNEY, YOU'RE NOT DRIVING IT.

SO, THAT'S ONE THING.

I WILL SAY THAT I COULDN'T HAVE DONE MY LAST JOB OR CERTAINLY NOT MY JOB THAT I DID AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, IF I DID NOT HAVE A HUGE RESPECT AND VALUE FOR THE ROLE OF JOURNALISTS, INCLUDING DAYS WHERE PEOPLE WERE PUSHING ME, WERE AGGRESSIVELY ASKING FOR MORE INFORMATION, I'VE ALWAYS HAD A TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR THAT.

BUT WHAT I THINK -- BUT THE INTERVIEW PART, I THINK, HAS BEEN A BIG LEARNING LESSON FOR ME, BUT MANY OTHER THINGS, AS WELL.

>> CAN YOU THINK, BECAUSE YOU SPEAK ABOUT WORK/LIFE BALANCE IN YOUR BOOK, AND THERE COULDN'T BE A MORE TENSE WORK/LIFE BALANCE THAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

CAN YOU THINK OF AN ANECDOTE WHEN THE TWO SORT OF, YOU KNOW, COLLIDED?

>> MANY TIMES, AND I KNOW YOU'VE EXPERIENCED THIS, I'M SURE, YOURSELF.

BUT THE WORST DAY THAT I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR EITHER PRESIDENT I WORKED FOR, WAS THE DAY OF THE ATTACK ON ABBY GATE, WHERE WE LOST MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED OUR COUNTRY.

IT WAS OBVIOUSLY A DEVASTATING DAY FOR THE PRESIDENT, FOR ALL OF US, AND CERTAINLY, OF COURSE, FOR THOSE FAMILIES.

IT WAS ALSO THE DAY OF MY DAUGHTER'S KINDERGARTEN OPEN HOUSE, AND I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK.

AND HOW ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IS BEING PRESENT IN ALL ASPECTS OF YOUR LIFE, AS A WORKING MOTHER, AS A WORKING PARENT, WHERE I KNEW I HAD TO BE PRESENT IN THAT MOMENT AND TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, CONDUCT A BRIEFING AND ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR THE REPORTERS HELP THE PRESIDENT PREP FOR WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT DAY, BUT I ALSO WANTED TO BE PRESENT FOR MY DAUGHTER.

IT WAS AN IMPORTANT AND UPLIFTING DAY FOR MY DAUGHTER, SO, IT WAS REALLY HAVING KIND OF TWO PARTS OF YOUR EXISTENCE, WHICH IS A CHALLENGE, I THINK, MANY WORKING PARENTS EXPERIENCE, BUT THAT WAS ONE THAT CERTAINLY WILL STICK WITH ME FOR A LONG TIME.

>> YEAH, AND I REALLY HEAR YOU THERE.

AND OF COURSE YOU'RE REFERRING TO WHAT HAPPENED IN AFGHANISTAN DURING THE WITHDRAWAL.

JEN PSAKI, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, ONE THING, ALSO, AT THE TOP OF VOTERS' MINDS IS IMMIGRATION.

IT IS A CONCERN THAT VETERAN BROADCASTER RAY SUAREZ DELVES DEEPER INTO IN HIS LATEST BOOK, "WE ARE HOME."

AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THIS CRITICAL MOMENT IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

RAY SUAREZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> AND OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE KNOW YOUR FACE, THEY KNOW YOUR VOICE FROM, YOU KNOW, PROGRAMS LIKE PBS NEWS HOUR AND OF COURSE NPR'S TALK OF THE NATION.

YOU'VE WRITTEN A BUNCH OF BOOKS, MANY OF THEM TOUCH ON THE HISTORY OF LATINOS WORLDWIDE, IMMIGRATION.

WHAT DOES THIS BOOK DO THAT THE OTHERS HAVE NOT?

>> I WAS GOADED INTO WRITING THIS BOOK BY EVENTS.

I SAW THE DISCOURSE IN THE UNITED STATES AROUND IMMIGRATION CHANGING IN WAYS THAT I THOUGHT WERE AHISTORICAL, PROBLEMATIC, AND DIDN'T CONTAIN IN THEM THE SEEDS OF A FUTURE UNITED PEOPLE.

I HEARD THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, FOR INSTANCE, MOVING FROM DARK CORNERS OF THE INTERNET AND OBSCURE RIGHT WING MANIFESTOS TO SOMETHING LIKE -- MORE LIKE THE CENTER OF THE AMERICAN DIALOGUE, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, I GOT TO SAY SOMETHING.

>> BUT THE OTHER THING ABOUT THIS BOOK THAT I HAVE TO SAY IS, IT'S NOT A CHEERLEADING BOOK.

IT'S NOT A BOOK THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, ALL IMMIGRATION, ALL THE TIME, IS ALL AMAZING AND GREAT.

SO, WHAT ARE YOU STRIVING FOR?

>> WELL, I WANTED TO REMIND PEOPLE OF OUR IMMIGRANT HISTORY.

THAT WE KIND OF BEAT YOU UP AT THE FRONT DOOR AND THEN WE END UP EATING YOUR FOOD.

IT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT WE KEEP PRETENDING LIKE THOSE WONDERFUL OLD ELLIS ISLAND IMMIGRANTS ARE IMMIGRANTS THAT WE CAN BE SENTIMENTAL ABOUT AND LOOK AT BELOVED SEPIA-TONED PHOTOGRAPHS AS FAMILY PICTURES GET OLDER AND OLDER.

AND THOSE ARE ONE KIND OF IMMIGRANTS, AND THE IMMIGRANTS WE'RE GETTING TODAY ARE A DIFFERENT KIND, BUT THEY'RE NOT.

THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE.

THE SAME STRIVING, ELBOWS OUT, TAKING A CHANCE, ROLLING THE DICE WITH THEIR OWN LIVES KIND OF PEOPLE.

SOMETIMES FLEEING DESPERATE SITUATIONS ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.

AND I HAVE THEM TELL ME THEIR STORIES.

PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, ASIA, LATIN AMERICA, EASTERN EUROPE, HOW IT WAS TO COME HERE, HOW THEY GOT HERE, AND HOW THEY GOT OVER, EVENTUALLY.

>> TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE SORT OF HISTORY THAT YOU ARE KIND OF WORKING AROUND, I MEAN, SAY BETWEEN THE 1920s AND THE EARLY 1960ED, YOU POINT OUT THAT THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT DROP IN A NUMBER OF FOREIGN-BORN AMERICANS IN THE U.S. WHY WAS THAT?

>> IN 1924, THE CONGRESS NARROWED THE OPEN DOOR AND MADE IT HARDER TO COME HERE FROM A LOT OF PARTS OF THE WORLD.

PUTTING IN A QUOTA SYSTEM THAT FAVORED EUROPE PARTICULARLY, WESTERN EUROPE EVEN MORE, AND SO, WE ENTERED A TIME AFTER AN ENORMOUS WAVE OF PEOPLE COMING HERE FOR THE PREVIOUS 75 YEARS, FROM THE 1840s TO THE 1920s, WE STARTED TO EXPERIENCE LOWER LEVELS OF IMMIGRATION.

THEN CAME THE GREAT DEPRESSION, THEN CAME WORLD WAR II, THEN CAME THE BABY BOOM, AND YEARS OF TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC PROGRESS IN EUROPE COMING OUT OF THE RUBBLE OF WAR.

SO, BY 1960, THE AVERAGE IMMIGRANT IN THE UNITED STATES, THE AVERAGE FOREIGN-BORN RESIDENT, WAS OLDER THAN THE AVERAGE AMERICAN.

AND THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN IN ANOTHER COUNTRY HAD DROPPED TO AROUND 5%, WHICH IS A LOW THAT WE HADN'T SEEN IN OVER A CENTURY.

AT THAT POINT, DURING THE HOT CALDRON OF THE COLD WAR, LYNDON JOHNSON, LEADERS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE, TALKED ABOUT HOW THIS LOOKED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THAT WE MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD TO GET HERE, AND THEY BEGAN TO TINKER WITH THE MACHINERY OF IMMIGRATION.

OUT OF THAT COMES THE 1965 IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT, AND WE GET FROM THAT THE AMERICA THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING TODAY.

>> WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT '65 ACT THAT WAS SUCH A GAME CHANGER?

>> WE DROPPED THE QUOTA SYSTEM FAVORING EUROPE, AND, IN FACT, FEW EUROPEANS WANTED TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRIES IN THOSE YEARS, AND PEOPLE REALLY WANTED TO COME HERE FOR STUDY, TO INVEST, TO START THEIR LIVES OVER, FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, SO, THERE WAS PENT-UP DEMAND IN EAST ASIA, IN SOUTH ASIA.

THERE WAS PENT-UP DEMAND EVEN IN AFRICA.

WHICH IS A REMARKABLE THING, GIVEN THE EXPERIENCE OF BLACK AMERICANS JUST IN THE RECENT PAST.

1965, WE WERE STILL EXPERIENCING THE VERY DIFFICULT ADJUSTMENT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT YEARS, AND THERE WERE STILL AFRICANS THAT WANTED TO COME HERE AND TAKE THEIR CHANCE ON AMERICA.

>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE IDEA OF THIS AS AN ORAL HISTORY?

THE TITLE IS, "WE ARE HOME: BECOMING AMERICAN IN U.S.

HISTORY."

IT'S BASICALLY TOLD THROUGH PEOPLE'S SORT OF TESTIMONIES.

SO, TELL US SOME OF THOSE STORIES.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT SAMIR, FROM KENYA.

>> I SUSPECT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FALL IN LOVE WITH SAMIR.

HE IS FROM THE COAST OF KENYA, BUT HE'S NOT FROM THE HISTORICALLY BLACK AFRICAN POPULATION OF KENYA, HE'S YEMENI, FROM A VERY OLD YEMENI FAMILY IN KENYA.

AFTER HIS PARENTS SPLIT UP, HIS AUNT, WHO ALREADY LIVED IN THE UNITED STATES, WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAMILY, ALIED IN THE DIVERSITY LOTTERY TO GET THE FAMILY TO THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY WON.

AND SAMIR AND HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND HIS MOTHER CAME TO MARYLAND, A SUBURB OF WASHINGTON, D.C.

HE STARTS HIS LIFE OVER.

AND HE WAS AN ABSOLUTE FIEND FOR AMERICAN CULTURE.

SO, HE HAD MOVIES AND TELEVISION SHOWS AND POP MUSIC RUNNING THROUGH HIS HEAD AND THROUGH HIS IMAGINATION.

AND THEN HE GOT TO COLUMBIA, MARYLAND, AND HE THOUGHT, THIS ISN'T WHAT I HAD IN MIND.

AND BEFORE TOO LONG, HE'S WORKING TWO FULL-TIME JOBS, 40 HOURS A WEEK AT WAWA, 40 HOURS A WEEK DOING THE BREAKFAST AT McDONALD'S, THINKS HIS LIFE IS FULL OF DRUDGERY AND BOREDOM AND SAYS, I CAN'T KEEP DOING THIS.

AND HE JOINS THE U.S. ARMY.

AND SAMIR, BEFORE TOO LONG, AFTER A QUICK TOUR THROUGH BASIC, IS SHIPPED TO KOREA, HE GOES ON TO PUT TOGETHER THIS ALMOST FORREST GUMP-ISH KIND OF LIFE, WHERE HE JUST SEEMS TO PUT OPPORTUNITIES IN FRONT OF OPPORTUNITY IN FRONT OF OPPORTUNITY.

BUYS A HOUSE FOR HIS FAMILY AT 21 YEARS OLD USING THE G.I.

BILL, AND HE BASICALLY HAS THESE TRANSFORMATIONAL EXPERIENCES, LIKE 9/11, LIKE THE MUSLIM BAN THAT CAME IN DURING THE EARLY DAYS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND HE HAD TO HAVE A MUSLIM AMERICAN'S VERSION OF "THE TALK" WITH HIS SONS.

AND YOU DON'T THINK OF THERE BEING SUCH A THING.

BUT HE GRABBED HIS THEN VERY YOUNG KIDS AND RAN DOWN TO DULLES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT TO JOIN A MULTI-RACIAL, MULTI-ETHNIC GROUP OF PROTESTERS, SAYING, THIS BAN ON PEOPLE VISITING, ON PEOPLE MOVING HERE, ON PEOPLE BEING REFUGEES FROM MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES, IS UN-AMERICAN.

HE'S NOT THE KIND OF GUY WHO SHOULD SHOW UP AT PROTESTS, BUT HE BECAME THAT.

AND THAT ACTUALLY WAS IN SOME WAYS THE CAPPER ON HIS AMERICAN JOURNEY.

EVERYTHING KIND OF MAKES SENSE TO HIM NOW, IN A WAY IT DIDN'T BEFORE.

>> YOU PROFILED A CONGRESSMAN FROM MICHIGAN, TELL US HIS STORY AND WHY DID YOU WANT TO PROFILE HIM?

>> THE NIGHT OF JOE BIDEN'S FIRST STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS, I WATCHED BIDEN COME DOWN FROM THE LECTERN AND START TO WORK THE ROOM, AS HE DOES.

AND THERE WAS THIS SHORT GUY WITH A BIG SMILE ON HIS FACE, AND HE HAS SOME FACETIME WITH THE MOST POWERFUL MAN ON EARTH, AND JOE BIDEN MOVES ON TO TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT HE STAYS IN THE SHOT, STILL GRINNING FROM EAR TO EAR.

HE'S LIKE THE LUCKIEST GUY IN THE WORLD.

AS HE KEEPS FOLLOWING THE PRESIDENT AROUND THE ROOM, AS HE HAS SOME SMALL TALK WITH OTHER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, OH, I KNOW WHO THAT IS, THAT'S THAT NEW CONGRESSMAN FROM MICHIGAN, I GOT TO TALK TO THAT GUY.

HE TOLD A FABULOUS STORY OF CONSTANT REINVENTION, OF STARTING AND LOSING MULTIPLE BUSINESSES, BECOMING A MILLIONAIRE MANY, MANY TIMES OVER AND THEN LOSING IT ALL AND STARTING AGAIN.

AND THEN, IN HIS MID-60s, DECIDING TO RUN FOR ELECTORAL OFFICE, AND I GUESS MAYBE FUELED BY THIS AMAZING AMERICAN LIFE THAT HE HAD ALREADY LIVED, WHAT DID HE DECIDE WOULD BE HIS FIRST JOB IN ELECTORAL POLITICS?

GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN.

SO, DON'T WANT TO START AT THE BOTTOM THERE, DO YOU?

HE GETS HIS CLOCKS CLEANED BY GRETCHEN WHITMER, AND THEN DECIDES, NO, I REALLY WANT TO DO THIS.

AFTER THE REMAP FOLLOWING THE 2020 CENSUS, HE RUNS IN A NEWLY MAPPED SEAT IN MICHIGAN, WINS, AND NOW IS THIS EXCITED NEW MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

AND HE SAYS, IN NO OTHER PLACE IN THE WORLD IS MY STORY POSSIBLE.

>> YOU ALSO EXPLORE THE FRUSTRATIONS, DEEP FRUSTRATIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE, AND I'M THINKING HERE ABOUT THE JESUS CONTRERAS, RECIPIENT OF DACA, WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL THE DREAMERS.

YOU WANT TO TELL HIS STORY?

>> HE WAS BROUGHT OVER THE BORDER BY HIS MOTHER WHEN SHE WAS 7 YEARS OLD.

HE GREW UP IN SORT OF THE STRUGGLING CLASS IN TEXAS, BUT REALIZED THAT IT WAS SIMPLY BEYOND HIS FAMILY'S ABILITY TO PROVIDE IF HE TRIED TO PAY FOR COLLEGE.

HE WON AN ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIP BY SHEER LUCK, AND DECIDED HE WANTED TO BE AN EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIAN, WORK WITH THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, PULL PEOPLE OUT OF BUILDINGS, OUT OF CAR WRECKS AND SO ON.

BUT HE WASN'T ALLOWED TO HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE, BECAUSE HE WASN'T IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.

DACA OPENS UP THE DOORS TO FURTHER EDUCATION, TO GETTING A SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER, TO GETTING A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

AND HE BECOMES AN EMT.

AND HELPS GET HOUSTON THROUGH THE PANDEMIC.

EXTRACTING PEOPLE FROM APARTMENTS WHO HAD WAITED TOO LONG TO MAKE EMERGENCY CALLS ABOUT THEIR HEALTH, BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS WAS GOING TO COMPLICATE THINGS ONCE THEY GOT TO THE HOSPITAL.

HE WOULD REASSURE THEM, HE WOULD COMFORT THEM, GET THEM ON A GURNEY, GET THEM OUT OF THEIR PAME APARTMENTS AND INTO AN AMBULANCE AND SAVE THEIR LIVES.

HE'S FRUSTRATED, BECAUSE HE FEELS HIS GOOD WORK IS NOT HE'S CHOSEN TO MAKE HIS LIFE.

HE SAYS, I HAVE NO MEMORIES OF MEXICO.

I WAS A LITTLE KID.

>> RIGHT.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING SORT OF FUNDAMENTAL ABOUT AMERICAN IDENTITY THAT'S BEING COMPROMISED AND THEY SAY THEY WANT TO DEFEND THAT?

>> A LOT OF THEM TELL FABLES ABOUT THEIR OWN IMMIGRANT PAST.

YOU'LL FREQUENTLY HEAR PEOPLE SAY, WELL, YES, MY ANCESTORS CAME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, BUT THEY FOLLOWED THE RULES.

LEAVING ASIDE THE FACT THAT FOR MUCH OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THERE WERE NO RULES.

AND WE JUST DON'T DO BATTLE WITH THAT FACT.

PEOPLE LIED ABOUT THEIR SCRAPES WITH THE LAW BACK IN EUROPE, OR THE FACT THAT THEY WERE FLEEING CONSCRIPTION BACK IN EUROPE, AND THEY'D ARRIVE AT ELLIS ISLAND AND SAY THOSE THINGS WERE NOT TRUE.

THEY CAME WITH NEW NAMES, NEW IDENTITIES.

THAT HAPPENED A LOT.

AND YET, ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE SORT OF SEPIA-TONED HEROES WHO LEARNED ENGLISH RIGHT AWAY, MIRACULOUSLY, EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THAT THE OLDER YOU ARE WHEN YOU COME HERE, THE LESS EASY AND THE LESS LIKELY IT WAS FOR YOU TO LEARN ENGLISH.

WE PARTICULARIZE THE PERSONAL, AND WE GENERALIZE ABOUT THE DYSFUNCTIONAL.

SO, YOU'LL SEE, OH, JOSE, YEAH, I WORK WITH HIM.

GOOD GUY, MY KIDS PLAY ON HIS KID'S LITTLE LEAGUE GAME.

MARIAM?

MARIAM AND ADNAN, THEY ARE TERRIFIC PEOPLE.

THEY LIVE DOWN THE BLOCK.

MY KID IS ON A TEAM AT SCHOOL WITH HIS KID.

SO, WE PARTICULARIZE THE POSITIVE TRAITS OF THE IMMIGRANTS WE KNOW, AND STILL GIVE OURSELVES PERMISSION TO GENERALIZE ABOUT THE PATHOLOGY OF THE IMMIGRANTS THAT WE DON'T KNOW, SO WE CAN STILL THINK THAT IT'S A TERRIBLE THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING IN FROM LATIN AMERICA, EVEN THOUGH THE LATIN AMERICANS THAT YOU KNOW IN YOUR DAILY LIFE ARE OKAY AND GETTING THE HANG OF BEING AMERICAN.

IT'S THAT ABILITY TO SWITCH IT ON AND OFF THAT DRIVES ME A LITTLE CRAZY.

>> OKAY, BUT WHAT DO YOU SAY THAT EVERY COUNTRY DEFENDS ITS BORDERS, RIGHT?

THIS IS THE FIRST BOOK THAT YOU ARE SORT OF DESCRIBING YOUR TRAVELS, AND YOUR CONVERSATIONS, SO, I FEEL LIKE I CAN ASK YOU, WHAT ABOUT THAT?

I MEAN, THE FACT THAT EVERY COUNTRY DEFENDS ITS BORDERS, CREATES BORDERS, BORDERS ARE, IN FACT, WHAT MAKE A COUNTRY A COUNTRY.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY, YOU CAN'T HAVE OPEN BORDERS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> EVERY COUNTRY ON THE PLANET HAS THE RIGHT TO HAVE A BORDER, TO REGULATE AND OBSERVE WHO IS HERE, WHO WANTS TO COME HERE, AND SET THE RULES FOR COMING HERE AND FOR STAYING HERE.

THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE BOTTOM LINE TO THIS CONVERSATION.

WE HAVE ALLOWED OUR SYSTEM TO BECOME DYSFUNCTIONAL, CLOGGED, SLOW, AND UNJUST, WHICH MAKES A SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE WHO TRY TO DO IT LEGALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE GET DISCOURAGED AND THEN DO IT ILLEGALLY.

WHEN THEY INTERVIEW A LOT OF THE CHINESE NATIONALS WHO ARE SHOWING UP AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER WITH MEXICO, THEY FIND THAT THEY'VE LONG HAD PAPERWORK IN THE SYSTEM, TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY, THEY KNOW PARTICULARLY WHERE THEY WANT TO MOVE, THEY MAY HAVE RELATIVES IN THE COUNTRY, BUT IT ALL TAKES SO LONG THAT THEY EVENTUALLY COME SOME OTHER WAY.

LET'S SET ASIDE FOR A MOMENT THE DESPERATE PEOPLE THAT ARE POURING OUT OF VENEZUELA AND CUBA AND HONDURAS, THE PLACES THEY LIVE ARE DANGEROUS, CIVIC ORDER HAS MELTED DOWN, THAT'S DIFFERENT.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO BECOME REFUGEES.

BUT LAWS HAVE TO BE FOLLOWABLE.

AND ONCE THEY BECOME NOT VERY EASY TO FOLLOW, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE HAVE A GREATER PROPENSITY TO BREAK THEM.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INTO THE COUNTRY SOME OTHER WAY, OVERSTAYING VISAS, LYING ON THEIR APPLICATIONS, A LOT OF THEM ARE NOT PREDISPOSED TO BE CRIMINALS.

THEY JUST HAVE A SITUATION THEY NEED TO TAKE CARE OF.

THIS IS NOT WORKABLE, BUT INSTEAD OF HIRING MORE MAGISTRATES MORE UNIFORMED OFFICERS, HIRING MORE INTERPRETERS, FIXING THIS CRISIS, IT'S -- WE'RE ALLOWING ONE OF OUR PARTIES TO TURN THE SCREWS ON THE OTHER TO MAKE THEM EMBARRASSED THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

AS IF THE UNITED STATES COULD ESCAPE WHAT TURKEY AND GERMANY AND BRITAIN AND FRANCE AND COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE EXPERIEN EXPERIENCING, AS WE HAVE A WORLD ON THE MOVE.

MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL SLEEP TONIGHT IN A PLACE THAT IS NOT THEIR HOME.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, AS I SAID, YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS A LONG TIME AS A JOURNALIST, AS AN OBSERVER OF, YOU KNOW, THE EVENTS OF THE WORLD.

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT THAT KIND OF CHANGED YOUR MIND ABOUT SOMETHING, OR THAT CHANGED THE WAY YOU THINK?

ABOUT THIS ISSUE?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I HAVE BECOME BOTH MORE PRACTICAL AND MORE SENTIMENTAL THE OLDER I GET.

I AM MOVED WHEN I WATCH THINGS LIKE WHY WE FIGHT, OR, AS I REFERENCE IN THE BOOK, A LOVELY OLD OSCAR-WINNING SHORT FILM WITH FRANK SINATRA CALLED "THE HOUSE I LIVE IN."

WHICH ALMOST EVERY TIME I HEAR IT NOW, I GET ALL BLUBBERY, BECAUSE IT EVOKES AN AMERICA THAT IS THE IDEAL AMERICA, THE ONE WE ALL HOPE FOR, WHERE WE TAKE PEOPLE AS THEY COME, WHERE WE EXTEND A HAND, WHERE WE BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE FROM ANYWHERE CAN BE THEIR BEST SELVES HERE.

AND I LOVE THAT AMERICA, I WANT US TO BELIEVE IN THAT AMERICA, BECAUSE IT'S A BIG PART OF OUR JOINT WAY FORWARD, AND I THINK SOME OF THE UGLINESS ABOUT DENYING THE POSSIBILITY OF HUMANITY TO PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES IS GETTING US OFFTRACK.

AND YOU MENTIONED THAT MOST OF MY OTHER WORK HAS BEEN VERY REPORTERLY, AND IT IS PARTLY THIS TOPIC THAT SORT OF PULLED ME OFF THE SIDELINES, THAT MADE ME THINK, WELL, MAYBE AFTER 45 YEARS, I'VE EARNED THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION.

AND THIS IS WHAT I'M -- WHAT IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

>> RAY SUAREZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> GREAT TO TALK TO YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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