May 15, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE CHILDREN OF WAR.

JOMANA KARADSHEH JOINS ME ON MEETING THE YOUNGEST GAZANS WHOSE LIVES ARE CHANGED FOREVER.

>>> AND -- AS RUSSIA MOVES ON KHARKIV, VLADIMIR PUTIN HEADS TO CHINA.

I SPEAK TO MIKE FROMAN, PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS, ABOUT AMERICAN LEVERAGE IN UKRAINE, CHINA, AND BEYOND.

THEN -- >> WE'VE BEEN JAMMING A SQUARE PEG INTO A ROUND HOLE LONG ENOUGH.

>> REPUBLICANS VOTING FOR BIDEN.

GEORGIA'S FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR GEOFF DUNCAN TELLS ME WHY HE WENT PUBLIC WITH HIS PLAN TO CROSS THE AISLE.

PLUS -- >> WE ARE ASKED TO BE ANGRY.

>> THE AGE OF GRIEVANCE.

FRANK BRUNI TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE NEW TREND IN POLITICS.

COMPLAINING.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PALESTINIANS ARE MARKING THE 76th ANNIVERSARY OF THE NAKBA, WHICH MEANSCATASTROPHE, WHEN 700,000 FLED OR WERE EXPELLED DURING ISRAEL'S WAR OF INDEPENDENCE IN 1948.

THIS YEAR'S COMMEMORATION COMES AMID ACUTE PAIN FOR BOTH.

CHILDREN HAVE BOURN THE BRUNT OF THIS WAR.

SO MANY THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN KILLED THAT EVEN THE U.N. HAS CALLED THIS A WAR AGAINST CHILDREN.

NOW, THIS VIDEO THAT WE WANT TO SHOW YOU NEXT IS DIFFICULT, BUT IT TELLS A STORY.

IT SHOWS A GIRL CALLED NOLENE WOUNDED IN A RECENT STRIKE ON NORTHERN GAZA AND CALLING OUT FOR HER MOTHER, AS SHE'S BEING RESCUED.

>> MAMA?

[ CRYING ] [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> MAMA.

>> MAMA.

>> SHE SURVIVED, BUT HER MOTHER, WE LEARNED, DID NOT.

JOMANA KARADSHEH JOINS ME TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND HER VISIT WITH INJURED CHILDREN IN QATAR.

SO, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT WE GET SENT, AND WHAT WE SEE, AND WHAT, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO SEARCH TO TELL THE ACTUALLY STORY.

THE FACT IS, WE JOURNALISTS, INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS, ARE PREVENTED FROM GOING INTO GAZA.

SO, IN TERMS OF TRANSPARENCY, TELL OUR VIEWERS HOW WE FACT-CHECKED THAT PIECE OF VIDEO?

>> ON A DAILY BASIS, WE GET VIDEO LIKE THIS OUT OF GAZA, AND WE ALWAYS HAVE PROCEDURE IN PLACE TO CHECK TO LOCATE VIDEOS TO SEE WHERE THIS HAS HAPPENED.

IN THIS CASE, OUR PRODUCERS WERE ON THE PHONE TO SOURCES IN GAZA, SPEAKING TO MULTIPLE PEOPLE TO GET INFORMATION HERE, BECAUSE THIS VIDEO ONLY SURFACED A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO.

>> BUT IT HAPPENED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

>> WE UNDERSTAND IT HAPPENED ON THE FIRST OF MAY IN NORTHERN GAZA.

AND WHAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS INSTANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS, SHE WAS SHELTERING IN HER HOME WITH HER MOTHER AND HER SISTER WHEN THIS AIR STRIKE HAPPENED, AND THEY WERE BOTH KILLED.

BUT WHAT YOU SEE IN THIS VIDEO, CHRISTIANE, IS THROUGHOUT THIS CLIP IS THESE FIRST RESPONDERS, RESCUERS TALKING TO HER, TRYING TO KEEP HER CONSCIOUS, TRYING TO KEEP HER ENGAGED, TRYING TO CALM HER DOWN, WHILE THEY'RE TRYING TO GET BANDAGES AND TOURNIQUETS TO DEAL WITH HER INJURIES AND SHE'S CONSTANTLY ASKING FOR HER MOTHER, SAYING, "I'M AFRAID, I'M SCARED, WHERE'S MY MOM?"

AND THEY TELL HER, "YOUR MOM IS OKAY, SHE'S WAITING FOR YOU."

AND WE'VE SEEN THIS SO MANY TIMES OVER THE PAST SEVEN MONTHS, WHERE THEY CAN'T TELL CHILDREN IN THIS SITUATION THAT THEIR PARENTS ARE NO LONGER THERE.

THIS HAS BECOME A PHENOMENON IN GAZA.

WOUNDED CHILD, NO SURVIVING FAMILY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN ESTIMATED 20,000 CHILDREN WHO HAVE LOST THEIR PARENTS IN THIS WAR.

AND YOU SEE THESE SCENES.

CHILDREN PULLED FROM UNDER THE RUBBLE ON THEIR OWN.

CHILDREN IN EMERGENCY ROOMS, WOUNDED WITH NO PARENTS THERE BY THEIR SIDE.

>> WE REGULARLY CHECK IN WITH THE IDF WHEN WE HAVE THESE THINGS.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE DID ON THIS CASE, BUT IN GENERAL, THEY TELL US THEY DO THEIR BEST TO AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAVE BEEN A HUGE NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY HARD, BECAUSE WE INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS ARE PREVENTED FROM GOING IN.

WHAT DO GAZANS, WHO YOU TALKED TO, THINK ABOUT THAT?

THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF GAZAN JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE BEEN DOING A HEROIC JOB, MANY HAVE PAID WITH THEIR LIVES.

WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU WHEN YOU REACH THEM ON THE PHONE AND THEY ASK YOU, WELL, WHY AREN'T YOU COMING?

>> THIS IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY SURPRISED ME IN DOHA RECENTLY, AND WE MET EVACUEES, PEOPLE WHO HAD JUST GOTTEN TO DOHA FOR MEDICAL TREATMENT AND THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS, PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHY WE'RE NOT THERE.

THEY THINK WE'RE NOT THERE BECAUSE IT'S TOO DANGEROUS, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

THEY DON'T REALIZE THAT WE ARE BEING PREVENTED, THAT WE ARE NOT GIVEN FREE ACCESS TO GO IN AND COVER THE WAR.

AND SO MANY, LIKE YOURSELF, HAVE BEEN PUSHING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO GIVE US THAT FREE ACCESS, TO BE ABLE TO GO IN AND REPORT, AS YOU MENTIONED, PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS IN GAZA WHO HAVE RISKED THEIR LIVES, WHO HAVE RISKED EVERYTHING, WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES COVERING THIS WAR, WHO HAVE BEEN OUR EYES AND EARS ON THE GROUND, AND WE ARE -- WE CANNOT TELL THESE STORIES WITHOUT THEM.

BUT WE ALSO WANT TO BE THERE ON THE GROUND, AS WELL, TO BEAR WITNESS, AND TO TELL THESE STORIES, AND THIS IS WHY.

WE WENT TO DOHA, WE WENT TO QATAR, BECAUSE WE CAN'T REACH GAZA, AND THIS IS THE CLOSEST WE COULD GET, TO HEARING FIRST-HAND FROM PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH AND WHAT THEY ARE CONTINUING TO GO THROUGH.

>> AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE YOUR REPORT.

>> FAR FROM A PLACE OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION, GAZA'S CHILDREN TRYING TO BE CHILDREN AGAIN.

BUT EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK HERE, YOU SEE THE REAL COST OF A WAR ISRAEL SAYS IS AGAINST HAMAS.

WHAT THE U.N. HAS CALLED A WAR ON CHILDREN.

SO MANY INJURED LITTLE ONES, SO MANY WHO HAVE LOST LIMBS.

MAHMOUD CAN NO LONGER RIDE A BIKE.

THE 9-YEAR-OLD LOST BOTH HIS ARMS IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE.

HE'S ONE OF HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN EVACUATED BY QATAR FOR MEDICAL TREATMENT.

MAHMOUD IS FINDING WAYS OF LIVING A CHILDHOOD SHATTERS.

HE SHOWS OFF HOW HE'S LEARNED TO USE HIS FEET TO PLAY VIDEO GAMES.

"I WANT TO FULFILL MY DREAMS, I WANT TO BE A JOURNALIST AND A PILOT," HE SAYS.

THE ONCE INDEPENDENT CHILD NOW NEEDS HIS MOTHER TO FEED HIM, DRESS HIM, AND TAKE HIM TO THE TOILET.

"I ASK WHAT MAKES HIM SO RESILIENT.

"BECAUSE I'M FROM GAZA.

BECAUSE I'M PALESTINIAN," HE SAYS.

"NOTHING CAN STOP ME."

THE CHILDREN HERE LIKE MAHMOUD DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR INJURIES.

THEY'VE FOUND SANCTUARY IN THIS UNLIKELY PLACE.

A COMPOUND QATAR BUILT FOR WORLD CUP FANS NOW TURNED INTO HOUSING FOR NEARLY 2,000 GAZAN EVACUEES, MOST OF THEM WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

IT'S A SAFE SPACE TO DEAL WITH THE TRAUMA OF WAR, AND OFFERS US A FIRST-HAND GLIMPSE INTO THE SUFFERING.

WHICH ISRAEL HAS FORCED US TO COVER FROM AFAR.

BY PREVENTING INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS FROM FREELY ACCESSING THE ENCLAVE.

IN THIS ROOM, WOMEN GATHERING IF A SESSION OF PALESTINIAN EMBROIDERY.

IT'S THERAPY, A DISTRACTION, BUT HOW COULD ANYONE FORGET WHAT THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH AND ALL THEY'VE LOST?

ALMA QUIETLY SITTING WATCHING HER GRANDMOTHER EMBROIDERING.

HER WOUNDED MOTHER IS IN HOSPITAL, HER INJURED FATHER STILL IN GAZA.

>> Translator: I DIDN'T EXPECT HER TO SURVIVE.

SHE HAD A FRACTURED SKULL, AMPUTATED LEG, AND A BROKEN ARM.

>> LIKE MANY CHILDREN, ALMA HAS LOST MORE THAN HER LEG.

THE BLAST THAT MAIMED HER TOOK HER 8-MONTH-OLD SISTER, WHO DIED IN HER ARMS, AND HER 6-YEAR-OLD BROTHER.

"I AM SAD ABOUT MY BROTHER AND SISTER," ALMA, CHOKING BACK TEARS, CAN'T SAY ANYMORE.

EVERYONE IN THIS ROOM IS MISSING LOVED ONES.

THOSE GONE AND THOSE THEY'VE HAD TO LEAVE BEHIND.

WEIGHED DOWN BY GRIEF AND GUILT, THEY TELL US THEY DEPRIVE THEMSELVES OF FOOD AND SLEEP.

>> Translator: I'VE BEEN SLEEPING ON A COUCH.

HOW CAN I SLEEP ON A BED WHEN MY SONS ARE SLEEPING IN A TENT AND ON SAND?

HOW CAN I EAT WHEN MY CHILDREN ARE HUNGRY?

>> HER THREE CHILDREN AND HUSBAND ARE IN RAFAH.

LIKE OTHERS, SHE DESPERATELY WANTS TO GET THEM OUT.

SHE SHOWS US PICTURES OF WHAT USED TO BE HOME.

WHERE SHE WAS INJURED, WHERE SHE LOST HER MOTHER, 6-YEAR-OLD KILLED IN A STRIKE, SHE SAYS, WHILE THEY WERE SLEEPING.

SHE GLEAMS WITH PRIDE TALKING ABOUT HER BOYS, 16-YEAR-OLD SHARIF WAS TOP OF HIS CLASS.

MAHMOUD HAD JUST GOTTEN A SCHOLARSHIP TO STUDY MEDICINE ABROAD.

>> Translator: ISRAEL LEFT NO DREAMS.

I NOW FIND MYSELF THINKING I WISH I HAD LET MY SON TAKE UP ARMS, INSTEAD OF DYING LIKE THIS.

>> SHE SAYS SHE RAISED HER BOYS TO NEVER CARRY WEAPONS, TO SERVE THEIR PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR EDUCATION.

>> Translator: I WANT TO TELL THEM, YOU DESTROYED THE PEOPLE, THE MOTHERS, YOU CREATED MORE HATRED.

I USED TO FEEL FOR THEM, WITH THE HOSTAGES.

AS A MOTHER WHO HAS LOST HER CHILDREN, IF I COULD AVENGE MY SONS' DEATH, I WOULD DO IT MYSELF.

>> MEMORIES AND PHOTOS ALL SHE HAS LEFT OF THEM.

>> Translator: WHEN I GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT, I PUT MY ARMS LIKE THIS.

I IMAGINE I'M HUGGING MAHMOUD AND SHARIF, HUGGING MY MOTHER.

>> PAIN IN THIS PLACE IS PALPABLE.

THOSE WHO HAVE MADE IT OUT MAY HAVE ESCAPED THE WAR, BUT THERE'S NO ESCAPING THE EVERLASTING SCARS IT LEAVES BEHIND.

>> SO MUCH PAIN, JOMANA.

THAT MOTHER'S LAST COMMENT IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERYBODY FEARS, THAT THIS WILL CREATE BACKLASH FOR GENERATIONS.

I WONDER WHAT ANYBODY SAID TO YOU ABOUT HAMAS, AND DO THEY BLAME HAMAS, AS WELL?

>> LOOK, WE ARE HEARING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE NOW SPEAKING OUT AGAINST HAMAS.

PEOPLE OF GAZA, WHO NOT ONLY -- WHO ARE ALSO BLAMING HAMAS FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING, AS WELL AS ISRAEL, OF COURSE.

BUT THEY JUST WANT THIS TO END.

THEY JUST WANT THIS TO BE OVER.

THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO REBUILD THEIR LIVES, BUT RIGHT NOW, EVERYONE WE SPOKE TO IN THIS REPORT HAD FAMILY STILL INSIDE GAZA.

FAMILIES ARE SEPARATED.

>> AND I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS REALLY TOUCHED BY THIS WOMAN IN SO MUCH PAIN WHO EVEN EMPATHIZED WITH THE PLIGHT OF THE HOSTAGES, WHO ARE STILL BEING HELD, I MEAN, PROBABLY TERRIBLE CONDITIONS, UNDERSTOOD GROUND, MAYBE, MORE THAN 100 ISRAEL STILL NEEDS TO GET HOME.

AND THERE'S JUST SO MUCH PAIN ON ALL SIDES.

ALMOST YOU FOUND PEOPLE HERE EVEN IN THEIR PAIN TALKING ABOUT THE OTHERS.

>> THEY WERE.

AND THIS ONE WOMAN WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW SHE BELIEVED IN PEACE, SHE BELIEVED THAT THEY COULD LIVE ALONGSIDE ISRAELIS, THAT SHE WAS TEACHING HER CHILDREN, YOU KNOW, TO FOCUS ON THEIR EDUCATION AND TO CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR PEOPLE AND TO THEIR COUNTRY THAT WAY.

BUT SHE NOW SAYS, AS YOU HEARD THERE, THAT SHE REGRETS THAT, AND SHE TALKS ABOUT THAT HATE.

AND SHE SAYS, WHEN THE HOSTAGES WERE FIRST TAKEN, SHE WAS FEELING REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THEM, SAYING, I HOPE THEY TREAT THEM WELL.

BUT NOW, YOU CAN HEAR THE ANGER IN HER VOICE.

>> IT'S REALLY WORRYING.

IT REALLY IS.

AND IT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR THE REPORTS OF MORE AND MORE GAZANS ACTUALLY DARING TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, HAMAS HAS ALSO SOLD US DOWN THE RIVER.

JOMANA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> THE WAR IN GAZA, THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THE WEST'S STRAINED RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA, THE WORLD IS MORE UNSTABLE THAN EVER.

TODAY, THERE WAS AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST SLOVAKIA'S PRO-RUSSIA PRIME MINISTER, ROBERT FICO WHO WAS SHOT MULTIPLE TIMES.

SLOVAKIA'S PRESIDENT SAID SHE WAS SHOCKED.

>> Translator: I AM SHOCKED.

EVERYBODY IS SHOCKED BY WHAT HAPPENED.

THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON SLOVAKIA'S PRIME MINISTER.

WE'LL HAVE TO SHOW OUR STRENGTH AND UNITY.

FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS NOT AN ATTEMPT ON A HEAD OF GOVERNMENT, IT WAS AN ATTEMPT ON A HUMAN BEING.

THE RHETORIC OF HATE, WHICH WAS ACCOMPANYING THIS EVENT, I'LL ASK YOU TO STAY CALM.

AND IF IT IS POSSIBLE, PLEASE FILTER THE INFORMATION AND PLEASE ONLY CONFIRM FACTS.

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

>> AND THIS WEEK, VLADIMIR PUTIN IS EXPECTED IN BEIJING, THE LATEST SEWN OF THEIR GROWING ALIGNMENT, AND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO AMERICA.

MIKE FROMAN IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS.

HE ALSO SERVED IN PRESIDENT OBAMA'S CABINET AS U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE.

AND NOW, WITH THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION JUST SIX MONTHS AWAY, HE'S JOINING ME NOW ON-SET.

MIKE FROMAN, WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I JUST WANT YOU TO REACT -- YOU KNOW, TO ALL OF THIS THAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA.

THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL AND GAZA ARE STILL IN THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION, THAT EVEN THE UNITED STATES CAN'T SEEM TO END.

THAT RUSSIA AND CHINA ARE OVERTLY TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE UNITED STATES.

JUST GIVE ME AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT YOU THINK.

>> I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

THERE'S A CONCERTED EFFORT BY RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, THROW IN NORTH KOREA, TO WORK TOGETHER TO CHALLENGE THE RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER, WHETHER THAT'S RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, SUPPORTED BY IRAN, NORTH KOREA, AND VERY IMPORTANTLY, CHINA, HELPING TO MILITARIZE RUSSIA'S ECONOMY, OR WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE INDOE PACIFIC REGION WITH CHINA EXERTING ITSELF.

SO, THESE ARE ALL INTERCONNECTED IN SOME RESPECTS, IN THAT THEY ALL ARE DIRECTED TOWARDS EITHER UNDERMINING NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES AND ITS LEADERSHIP, BUT REALLY THE RULES-BASED SYSTEM ITSELF.

>> MOST PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE, ARE BEGINNING TO ADMIT THAT ACTUALLY RUSSIA AND CHINA AND THIS ADDITIONAL, IF YOU WANT, THE ANTI-AMERICA AXIS THAT'S DROPPING, IS SUCCESSFUL, AND IT'S WORKING.

IT HAS BASICALLY AFFECTED AFRICA, GREAT, GREAT PARTS OF THE WORLD, BELIEVE THAT NARRATIVE.

>> I THINK IT IS QUITE DISRUPTIVE, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO UNDERMINE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON.

I DON'T THINK THEY'VE PROPOSED A SUBSTITUTE WORLD ORDER, OR SET OF RULES -- >> BUT DO THEY HAVE TO?

>> WELL, PERHAPS NOT, BUT I THINK WHAT'S IN FACT HAPPENED IS, IT STRENGTHENED ALLIANCES AROUND THE WORLD.

SO, THERE'S BEEN AN ACTION AND A REACTION.

NATO IS STRONGER NOW THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR DECADES.

TWO NEW COUNTRIES, MORE COUNTRIES SPENDING 2% OF GDP OR MORE ON THE DEFENSE.

A LOT OF COHESION BETWEEN -- ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE.

IN THE ASIA-PACIFIC, OR THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION, YOU HAVE THE QUAD, WITH INDIA INVOLVED, YOU HAVE COOPERATION WITH SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, AND THE UNITED STATES.

IN MANY RESPECTS, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT -- WHILE THERE'S BEEN AN EFFORT TO DISRUPT, IT'S ALSO LEAD TO A LOT OR VERY POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT IN TERMS OF ALLIANCES AND PARTNERSHIPS COMING TOGETHER.

>> SO, WHERE WOULD YOU PUT THE BALANCE SHEET?

WHO IS WINNING RIGHT NOW?

AMERICA AND ITS WORLD-BASED ORDER, EUROPE AND THE REST, THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD, OR THEM?

JUST LOOK AT RUSSIA.

MAKING ADVANCES INTO UKRAINE THAT WERE UNTHINKABLE SEVEN MONTHS AGO.

>> WELL, PERHAPS, BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE.

THIS IS A RUSSIAN DEFEAT, THEY EXPECTED TO GO IN AND TAKE OVER KYIV IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

>> BUT ISN'T THAT THE NARRATIVE OF TWO YEARS AGO?

TODAY, THEY ARE SEEING THAT THE WEST IS -- IS TIRED, IS INCAPABLE OF PRODUCING THE EQUIPMENT AND AMMUNITION, THAT THE POLITICS HAVE SLOWED DOWN THE DELIVERY OF VITAL AMERICAN AID, AND PUTIN IS LOOKING AT TRYING TO REDO WHAT HE TRIED TO DO A YEAR OR TWO YEARS AGO.

>> WELL, THE U.S. CONGRESS WAS WAY TOO SLOW IN APPROVING THIS PACKAGE, BUT THE PACKAGE HAS BEEN APPROVED, AND THERE'S A RACE BETWEEN GETTING THE MATERIAL TO THE UKRAINIANS SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES, PUSH BACK THE RUSSIAN FORCES, AND MAKE IT -- AND CHANGE THE CALCULATION THAT PUTIN FACES, IN TERMS OF HOW LONG HE WANTS TO BE IN THIS CONFLICT WITH UKRAINE.

A RACE OF THAT AGAINST PUTIN TRYING TO TAKED AD A ADDITIONAL VILLAGES IN NORTH OF UKRAINE.

IT'S A SENSITIVE MOMENT, BUT THE CONGRESS FINALLY ACTED, EUROPEANS HAVE ACTED, AND UKRAINIANS SHOULD HAVE THE MATERIAL THEY NEED TO ONE, VERY IMPORTANTLY, DEFEND AND PREVENT FURTHER RUSSIAN ADVANCES, AND TWO, HOPEFULLY PUSH THE RUSSIANS BACK AND CHANGE THAT CALCULATION.

>> DO YOU, IN YOUR HEART, THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THOSE SEVEN MONTHS OF DELAY, PLUS THE EUROPEANS' INABILITY TO SEND THE MILLION SHELLS THEY WERE GOING TO SEND, THEY CAN'T, BUT NORTH KOREA DID TO RUSSIA IN A MONTH.

IN A YEAR, EU COULDN'T SEND IT TO UKRAINE.

>> DON'T FORGET HOW MANY PEOPLE, MEMBER AND SOLDIERS, THAT RUSSIA LOST, HOW MUCH MATERIAL THEY LOST IN THIS WAR.

CHINA, IRAN, NORTH KOREA, ALL WORKING TO HELP RUSSIA REARM ITSELF AND TO MILITARYIZE ITS ECONOMY.

BUT YES, I DO THINK THAT WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE WEST, UKRAINE CAN DEFEND ITSELF, MAKE GAINS, AND HOPEFULLY, WHENEVER IT IS AN APPROPRIATE TIME TO COME TO NEGOTIATIONS, COME TO THE TABLE FROM A POSITION OF STRENGTH.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK -- HOW DO YOU READ AS AN AMERICAN, AS A FORMER AMBASSADOR, WORKING FOR THE WORLD ORDER THAT YOUR COUNTRY CREATED, WHAT DO YOU READ INTO THIS SECOND MEETING THIS YEAR BETWEEN XI -- PRESIDENT XI AND PRESIDENT PUTIN?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN THEY FIRST MET AT THE EVE OF THE INVASION OF UKRAINE, PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WAS A RELATIONSHIP OF CONVENIENCE AND PERHAPS IT WOULDN'T GO ANYWHERE.

I THINK WHAT PRESIDENT XI HAS COME TO THE CONCLUSION OF, AND, OF COURSE, IT'S HARD TO KNOW FROM THE OUTSIDE, IS THAT THEY HAVE A COMMON INTEREST IN UNDERMINING U.S.

LEADERSHIP AND UNDERMINING THE U.S.-LED ORDER, AS YOU SAID, OR, THE WESTERN-LED ORDER.

SO, THEY'RE WORKING VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER.

AND I THINK THAT CHANGES A LOT OF DYNAMICS.

RIGHT NOW, CHINA IS POSING A SECURITY THREAT TO EUROPE.

IN THAT IT'S SUPPORTING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION IN UKRAINE AND HELPING TO MILITARIZE THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY.

THE U.S. AND EUROPE WEREN'T ALWAYS ON THE SAME PAGES WITH REGARD TO CHINA.

THERE ARE STILL SOME IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES, BUT I THINK EUROPEANS INCREASINGLY SEE THAT IT'S NOT JUST RUSSIA THEY'RE DEALING WITH, IT IS ALSO AN AGGRESSIVE CHINA.

>> HOW ARE WE MEANT TO UNDERSTAND AND PASS ALL THE DIFFERENT ANALYSTS TAKE ON WHAT'S HAPPENING BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA?

OVER TRADE, OVER TAIWAN, OVER THAT KIND OF STUFF?

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE CERTAIN QUARTERS WHO BELIEVE THAT A WAR IN INEVITABLE, THAT XI IS GOING TO TAKE BACK TAIWAN BY FORCE INEVITABLY, THAN THE U.S. WOULD BE CAUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO SAY, DON'T GET HYSTERICAL, IT'S NOT A COLD WAR, IT MIGHT BE A COLD PIECE.

WHAT SHOULD THE WORLD THINK AND KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, I THINK ONCE YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE FACTS ARE, AND WHAT THE ACTUAL ACTIONS ARE, CHINA IS BUILDING OUT ITS MILITARY.

AND IT'S BUILDING OUT ITS NUCLEAR FORCE.

IT IS -- XT XI HAS SAID, THEY WANT TO BE -- THEY'VE ASKED THE MILITARY TO BE READY TO TAKE TAIWAN IF NECESSARY BY FORCE BY 2027, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A DECISION HAS BEEN MADE OR THAT A DEADLINE HAS BEEN SET IN ORDER TO TAKE TAIWAN.

AND I THINK THE WEST, INCLUDING THE U.S., JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, OTHERS IN THE REGION, CAN DO A LOT BETWEEN NOW AND THEN TO ENHANCE THE DETERRENCE AND MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE INTRODUCING ENOUGH UNCERTAINTY INTO THE EQUATION THAT PRESIDENT XI WILL TAKE A PAUSE BEFORE TAKING ANY ACTION AGAINST TAIWAN.

>> AND IT'S BEEN SAID, AND CORRECT US IF WE'RE WRONG, THAT IN TERMS OF TRADE, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS NOT SO DIFFERENT WITH CHINA THAN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS.

OTHERS SAY, NO, HE HAS HAD MORE TARGETED TARIFFS AND ET CETERA.

SOME PEOPLE SAY, WELL, LOOK, TRUMP'S VIEW OF CHINA, TRUMP'S DEALING WITH XI WAS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN ANY PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS.

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS RIGHT NOW ON THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING FIRM WITH CHINA ON TRADE.

THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S APPROACH AND WHAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID HE WOULD DO IF HE WAS RE-ELECTED.

HE WOULD IMPOSE A 60% TARIFF ON ALL CHINESE IMPORT -- EXPORTS TO THE UNITED STATES AND A 10% TARIFFS ON IMPORTS FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD.

I THINK WHAT YOU SAW, INCLUDING IN THE ANNOUNCEMENTS THIS WEEK WAS A TARGETED APPROACH BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO FOCUS PARTICULARLY ON THOSE SECTORS WHERE WE'VE IDENTIFIED THE NEED TO ENGAGE IN INDUSTRIAL POLICY AND TO BUILD A U.S. CAPACITY TO MANUFACTURE, WHETHER IT'S ELECTRIC VEHICLES, BATTERIES, OTHER CLEAN ENERGY PRODUCTS, AS WELL.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO INVEST PUBLIC DOLLARS IN TRYING TO BUILD THE INDUSTRY, THE LOGIC IS THAT YOU WANT TO PREVENT CHINA FROM FLOODING THE MARKET, DUMPING SUBSIDIZED PRODUCTS IN AT THE SAME TIME.

I THINK EUROPE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH MANY OF THE SAME QUESTIONS.

FRANCE, GERMANY, THE UK, ALL HAVE ROBUST AUTO INDUSTRIES, AND THEY -- IF THE U.S.

CLOSES ITS MARKE WHICH I EXPECT IT WILL TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES TO CHINA, THOSE VEHICLES HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE.

THERE'S A LOT OF EXCESS CAPACITY.

THERE ISN'T A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND THE REST OF THE WORLD, AND I THINK THEY'LL TARGET THE EUROPEAN MARKET.

>> AND JUST AGAIN, AS SORT OF A LAST QUESTION, AGAIN, YOU WERE IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THE IDEA OF GLOBALIZATION WAS STILL THE HOLY GRAIL, EVERYBODY THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT WAY TO, YOU KNOW, TO INTEGRATE THE WORLD, TO HOPEFULLY DECREASE TENSIONS, RATHER THAN INCREASE THEM.

YOU KNOW, WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA SO PREVALENT IN AFRICA, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE GLOBALIZATION WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO, OR WAS IT A BIG FAT MISTAKE?

>> NO, I THINK GLOBALIZATION HAS TREMENDOUS BENEFITS FOR THE GLOBAL ECONOMY HAS A WHOLE.

IT LIFTED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, IF NOT A BILLION PLUS PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY, IT IMPROVED HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDICATORS OF ALL SORTS.

IT BROUGHT NATIONS CLOSER TOGETHER.

IT DID ALSO HAVE ITS COSTS, AND I WILL SPEAK FROM THE UNITED STATES, WE NEVER REALLY DEALT EFFECTIVELY WITH THE DOMESTIC COSTS OF ADJUSTMENT, WHETHER THOSE ADJUSTMENTS CAME FROM TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION, OR WHETHER THEY CAME FROM TRADE.

AND THAT'S A FAILURE ON OUR PART FROM A DOMESTIC POLICY POINT OF VIEW TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES.

>> AND ARE THOSE BEING ADDRESSED?

>> NOT SUFFICIENTLY, BUT I THINK WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN THE TACT OF, WELL, LET'S FOCUS ON -- HAVING SEEN THE WEAKNESSES OF THE GLOBAL SYSTEM IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO DISCIPLINE AN ECONOMY LIKE CHINA, WHICH FOLLOWS A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES ON SUBSIDIES, STATE-OWNED ENTERPRISES AND THE LIKE, LET'S, IN SOME WAYS, FOLLOW CHINA'S EXAMPLE IN TERMS OF INVESTING IN KEY INDUSTRIES, IN CLOSING OUR MARKET IN PARTICULAR WAYS AND RESTRICTING INVESTMENT SO WE CAN ENSURE WE HAVE A ROBUST MANUFACTURING SECTOR IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST HOPE, AS WE GET INTO AN AMERICAN ELECTION?

>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK -- >> OR NIGHTMARE.

>> I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS, IF YOU TAKE ISSUES LIKE INTERNATIONAL TRADE, ACTUALLY, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SUPPORTING INTERNATIONAL TRADE.

THEY SEE IT'S GOOD -- >> BUT THEY THINK TRUMP IS BETTER ON THE ECONOMY.

>> BUT THEY RIGHT NOW THEY THINK THAT TRUMP IS BETTER ON THE ECONOMY.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S HOPE THAT, AS THE AMERICAN PUBLIC UNDERSTAND WHAT THE TRADEOFFS, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T LIKE BEING DEPENDENT ON CHINA FOR IMPORTS.

WE ALSO DON'T LIKE INFLATION AND THE HIGH COST OF LIVING.

AND ACTIONS TAKEN TO ADDRESS OUR DEPENDENCE ON CHINA WILL LIKELY RAISE THE COST.

WE NEED TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND I HAVE FAITH IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> AMBASSADOR FROMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, WITH THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION ONLY SIX MONTHS AWAY, DIVISIONS OVER THESE KEY FOREIGN POLICY AND OTHER ISSUES WILL PLAY A PIVOTAL ROLE.

AND WILL LIKELY BE THRASHED OUT IN A TELEVISED DEBATE ON CNN NEXT MONTH.

THAT'S THE FIRST BETWEEN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

RIGHT NOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS IN AND OUT OF COURT, WHERE HE FACES CRIMINAL CHARGES IN A HUSH MONEY CASE.

BUT THIS TRIAL HASN'T DENTED HIS POPULARITY AMONG MANY PROMINENT REPUBLICANS.

WHO TURNED UP AT THE COURTHOUSE YESTERDAY TO DEFEND HIM.

>> THE SYSTEM IS USING ALL THE TOOLS AT ITS DISPOSAL RIGHT NOW TO PUNISH ONE PRESIDENT AND PROVIDE COVER FOR ANOTHER.

>> THIS IS A SHAM.

THIS IS NOT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

THIS IS SOME THIRD RATE BANANA REPUBLIC.

>> THE ONLY CONCLUSION, OF COURSE, IS IT'S ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND IT'S TYING UP THE PRESIDENT FROM BEING OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

>> THIS IS A SHAM AND THAT IS THE ONLY THING THIS IS.

MICHAEL COHEN HAS NO CREDIBILITY, NO INTEGRITY, THIS IS WEAPONIZATION AGAINST OUR PRESIDENT.

>> THIS IS A JOKE.

IT IS A FARCE.

IT IS A TRAVESTY.

WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS.

>> WELL, MY NEXT GUEST IS A REPUBLICAN, BUT HE'S ENDORSING JOE BIDEN FOR A SECOND TERM.

HE SAYS DONALD TRUMP, QUOTE, HAS DISQUALIFIED HIMSELF THROUGH HIS CONDUCT AND HIS CHARACTER.

AND THAT HE DOESN'T REPRESENT OUR REPUBLICAN BRAND.

GEOFF DUNCAN IS THE FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA, AND HE JOINS THE SHOW FROM ATLANTA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> WHY?

TELL US WHY YOU'VE COME TO THAT CONCLUSION, AND WHY YOU AS A REPUBLICAN HAVE DECIDED TO GO PUBLIC NOW ON THIS ISSUE.

>> WE'VE PLAYED THIS GAME LONG ENOUGH, TRYING TO THINK DONALD TRUMP IS ACTUALLY A REPUBLICAN, AND HE'S THE BEST VOICE AND SPOKESMAN AND REPRESENTATIVE FOR OUR BRAND, BUT HE ISN'T.

WE'VE TRIED TO JAM THIS SQUARE PEG THROUGH A ROUND HOLE FOR NOW GOING ON WHAT FEELS EIGHT YEARS.

DONALD TRUMP IS NOT AN AUTHENTIC LEADER.

AND IF WE HIRED A ROOM FULL OF REALLY GREAT CONSULTANTS, SAID, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO TURN AWAY FROM DONALD TRUMP, THEY WOULD TELL US TO BEAT HIM.

BEAT HIM AS QUICKLY AND EFFECTIVELY AS YOU CAN, AND THEN TAKE THE NEXT FOUR YEARS TO HEAL AND REBUILD YOUR PARTY, FIND LEADERS THAT ARE GENUINE, AUTHENTIC LEADERS THAT UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF ACTUALLY TELLING THE TRUTH TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND AS A REPUBLICAN, NOT SHOWING UP TO WORK EVERY DAY AS A FAKE REPUBLICAN.

DONALD TRUMP SHOWED UP TO WORK FOR FOUR YEARS JUST SO HE COULD STAY IN POWER, AND ACTED LIKE A REPUBLICAN.

HE CERTAINLY WASN'T ROOTED IN THOSE CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

AND SO, LOOK, THIS IS A BOLD STEP FOR SOMEBODY THAT'S BEEN A LIFE LONG REPUBLICANS AND CONTINUES TO PLAN ON BEING A REPUBLICAN, BUT I THINK THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE, BECAUSE I YOU THIS IT'S AN IMPORTANT OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO GET RID OF DONALD TRUMP AND DO THE RIGHT THING AS REPUBLICANS, AND, YOU KNOW, CREATE A FIREWALL OF PROTECTION IN CONGRESS WITH REPUBLICAN MAJORITY AND MOST LIKELY THE SENATE, AND BE ABLE TO MOVE ON FOR FOUR YEARS AND HAVE A BETTER PARTY FOR IT.

>> LET ME READ FROM YOUR ESSAY WHERE YOU MADE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.

YOU WROTE, UNLIKE TRUMP, I'VE BELONGED TO THE GOP MY ENTIRE LIFE.

THIS NOVEMBER, I'M VOTING FOR A DECENT PERSON THAT I DISAGREE WITH OVER A CRIMINAL DEFENDANT WITHOUT A MORAL COMPASS.

SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE, THEN, OF ALL THESE REPUBLICANS WHO WE JUST, YOU KNOW, LAID OUT FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE, TROOPING DOWN TO THE COURT OF A CRIMINAL DEFENDANT AND TRASHING THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM, THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND SUPPORTING HIM.

WHEN YOU SAY HEAL AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, FOUR YEARS TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHO?

I MEAN, HAVE THEY NOT ALL GONE -- GONE, YOU KNOW, GO OVER TO MAGA.

>> THE CLIP LOOKED LIKE AN EPISODE FROM "BACHELORETTE" HERE IN AMERICA OF THEM TRYING TO VIE, YOU KNOW, ONE-UP EACH OTHER TO TRY TO BE HIS DATE IN THE ELECTION.

I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY -- EVEN DOWN TO THE POINT WHERE THEY DRESSED THE SAME.

WHITE SHIRTS, RED TIES, AND DARK JACKETS.

LOOK, I TRULY SEE THIS PLAYING OUT AS POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT TO BE ALONGSIDE DONALD TRUMP.

PRIVATELY, I HAVE A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS THAT EVEN PUBLICLY SAY THEY SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP, THAT PRIVATELY COME TO ME AND SAY, LOOK, YOU KNOW, THE TIME -- TIME IS GOING TO BE FAVORABLE TO HISTORY OF THIS OPINION OF GETTING RID OF THIS GUY AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN.

AND AS SOON AS WE DO, THEN WE'LL BE ABLE TO MOVE ON.

MY JOB, AND I THINK THE JOB OF OTHERS THAT ARE REALLY OF THIS MIND-SET, IS TO PROVIDE THE AIR COVER FOR THOSE THAT MAYBE AREN'T WILLING TO STEP OUT RIGHT OUT OF THE GATES AND SAY DONALD TRUMP IS WRONG NOT ONLY FOR THIS PARTY AND THIS COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHAT I'M HERE TO DO.

I'M HERE TO PROVIDE AS MUCH AIR COVER AS I CAN, TAKE THE HEAT, AND CONTINUE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, DONALD TRUMP IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG FOR THIS COUNTRY.

AND IT JUST CONTINUES TO PLAY OUT.

EVEN AS YOU WATCH THESE TRIALS PLAY OUT, I DON'T THOUGH WHAT THE LEGAL OUTCOMES OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE, BUT THE SALACIOUS DETAILS, THE PEEK INTO HIS SOUL, SHOWS YOU WHAT A CORRUPT THINKER, WHAT A CORRUPT OPERATOR, WHAT A BROKEN MAN THIS PERSON IS, AND I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE DIFFICULT DECISIONS THAT REST IN HIS LAP AS PRESIDENT GOING FORWARD.

THE DIFFICULT FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS, ECONOMIC DECISIONS, BORDER ISSUES.

IF THEY'RE ALL SELF-CENTERED ANSWERS THAT COME OUT OF HIS MOUTH JUST FOR HIS SOUL PURPOSE OF SURVIVAL, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A ROUGH FOUR YEARS.

>> I WANT TO GET TO BACKLASH, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN, GIVEN THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID THAT, WHY IS IT, DO YOU THINK, THAT CERTAINLY THE LATEST POLLS SHOW THAT HE IS AHEAD IN CERTAIN -- ACTUALLY QUITE A FEW SWING STATES.

AND ESPECIALLY AMONGST YOUNG PEOPLE AND IN DIVERSE STATES THAT SAY THEY WANT CHANGE, AND THAT THEY BELIEVE TRUMP IS THE CHANGE AGENT.

NOW, THEY WEREN'T ASKED WHAT KIND OF CHANGE, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY, THEY'RE FED UP WITH POLITICS, THEY'RE FED UP, MANY OF THEM, WITH THEIR OWN LIVES AND THEIR OWN, YOU KNOW, COST OF LIVING, ET CETERA, BUT THEY THINK THAT HE CAN BRING THE CHANGE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT AFTER THE FOUR YEARS THAT HE WAS IN POWER?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A NECK AND NECK RACE ALL THE WAY TO THE FINISH LINE.

I'M NOT CERTAIN I ACTUALLY PUT A LOT OF WEIGHT IN THE POLLING, NOT JUST IN THIS RACE, WE'VE SEEN THIS PLAY OUT THE LAST FEW YEARS.

WE'RE HAVING A DIFFICULT TIME REALLY TRULY GENUINELY GETTING A SNAPSHOT OF WHERE THE ELECTORATE IS.

BUT YOU KNOW, LOOK, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE DISGRUNTLED, THAT DON'T LIKE THE POSITION THAT THEY'RE IN EITHER ECONOMICALLY OR SOCIALLY, AND SO, THERE'S THIS LOUD, ANGRY VOICE IN THEIR HEAD, AND DONALD TRUMP SEEMS TO BE THE MOUTHPIECE THAT REPRESENTS THAT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT'S JUST MAKING A POINT.

IT'S NOT ACTUALLY MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

IF I'M SITTING IN A RURAL PART OF THIS COUNTRY AND I'M CHAMPING AND BANGING ON DONALD TRUMP'S DRUM, IF I'M GENUINELY LOOKING AT IT, HE'S DONE THE LEAST FOR THAT COMMUNITY THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT IN MODERN HISTORY.

HELPED THEM, OTHER THAN BEING A VOCAL PROPONENT OF SOME OF THEIR AGITATION.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE JUST CANNOT GET IN THE BUSINESS OF AMERICA ELECTING DISHONEST HUMAN BECOMES TO REPRESENT US.

WE'VE SEEN THAT NOT PLAY OUT IN CONGRESS.

WE'VE SEEN THAT NOT PLAY OUT WELL IN GOVERNORSHIPS.

AND WE'VE WATCHED IT PLAY OUT IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

THE WORLD'S WATCHING US, I'M HOPING WE GET THIS RIGHT.

I'M HOPING WE TAKE ON THIS BIG DECISION IN NOVEMBER AND PICK SOMEBODY THAT IS HONEST, THAT I CAN DISAGREE WITH ON POLICY, I CAN HOPEFULLY WORK WITH AND TRY TO GET TO NAVIGATE BACK TOWARDS MORE OF A MODERATE PLATFORM AND AWAY FROM THE FAR, DEEP LEFT.

THAT'S SOMETHING I CAN WORK WITH.

I CAN'T WORK WITH A LIAR.

I CAN'T WORK WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS WILLING TO SABOTAGE EVERYTHING JUST FOR SELF-PRESERVATION.

>> SO, WHEN YOU SAY THAT, AND YOU WRITE THIS, AND YOU COME OUT PUBLICLY, WHAT KIND OF BACKLASH HAVE YOU RECEIVED?

>> YEAH, IT'S PROBABLY SURPRISING.

I MEAN, IT'S 100 TO 1.

I LIVE IN A VERY DEEPLY RED COMMUNITY, 80% PLUS IN MY HOMETOWN ARE REPUBLICANS, CERTAINLY I RUN AROUND IN REPUBLICAN CIRCLES, I'VE BEEN AN ELECTED REPUBLICAN OFFICIAL FOR A LONG TIME.

IT'S 100 TO 1.

100 PEOPLE SAYING, HEY, WAY TO SPEAK THE TRUTH.

EVEN IF THEY ARE PLANNING ON STILL VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP, THEY GET IT, THEY UNDERSTAND IT.

A LOT OF THE FEEDBACK I GET IS, HEY, I MIGHT GET THERE, TOO, MYSELF, THIS THING CONTINUES TO ERODE SO QUICKLY.

IT'S HARD TO THINK ABOUT PUTTING MY STAMP ON APPROVAL, OR MY BRAND ON SOMEBODY WHO IS WILLING TO LIE, CHEAT, AND STEAL, JUST TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, TO QUITE HONESTLY, I THINK, TO STAY OUT OF JAIL.

SOME MIGHT THINK TO JUST HAVE POWER.

BUT NOT TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

>> AND VERY QUICKLY, BRIEFLY, IT'S JUST BEEN ANOUNGSED THAT THE TWO CANDIDATES WILL DEBATE ON CNN JUNE 27th.

HOW DO YOU EXPECT THAT TO GO, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT LIES AND THE REST OF IT.

I MEAN, HE'S A MASTER MESSAGE MANIPULATOR.

HOW DO YOU EXPECT IT TO GO?

>> YEAH, THE LAST TWO DEBATES DURING THE PREVIOUS ELECTION CYCLE, DONALD TRUMP DID NOT DO WELL.

THEY WERE HUGE PIVOT POINTS, I THINK, IN A NEGATIVE DIRECTION FOR HIS CAMPAIGN.

HE SETS THE BAR SO LOW FOR JOE BIDEN, AND JOE SHOWS UP AND DOES THE THINGS THAT HE NEEDS TO DO.

I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREEANSWERS, BUT HIS TONE IS BETTER THAN A LOUD MOUTH POPOFF ARTIST THAT SPOUTS OFF HATE AND VISCERAL OPINION.

>> AND, AGAIN, DO YOU THINK MORE REPUBLICANS WILL COME OUT?

BECAUSE WE TALKED TO ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, HE TOLD US THAT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF FORMER TRUMP OFFICIALS WHO WILL COME OUT CLOSER TO THE ELECTION TO SAY THE SAME KIND OF THING THAT YOU'RE SAYING.

>> I DO.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO GROW, THE LIST OF FOLKS WILLING TO STICK THEIR NECK OUT THERE AND JUST SAY THE TRUTH.

DONALD TRUMP IS NOT FIT TO BE THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD.

AND I TRULY BELIEVE THAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO BUILD, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS CREATES A MATH PROBLEM FOR DONALD TRUMP.

WHOEVER WINS THE PRESIDENCY HAS TO WIN THE SUBURBS, AND NOBODY IN THE SUBURBS IS PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE TRIALS AND THE DETAILS COMING OUT.

CHANGING THEIR MIND AS TO WHAT KIND OF CHARACTER OR PERSON DONALD TRUMP IS.

AND SO, I THINK HE'S GOT TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A SERIOUS MATH PROBLEM.

>> LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, TODAY IS A DAY OFF FROM THE COURTROOM, AND ONTO THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL FOR TRUMP, WHERE NO DOUBT HE'LL BE AIRING HIS GRIEVANCES ABOUT HIS CRIMINAL TRIAL AS USUAL.

NO ONE LIKES TO AMPLIFY COMPLAINTS QUITE LIKE HIM, AND MY NEXT GUEST SAYS WE ARE ACTUALLY LIVING IN THE AGE OF GRIEVANCE.

FRANK BRUNI JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS LATEST BOOK, WHICH EXPLORES HOW GRIEVANCES HAVE COME TO DEFINE AMERICAN POLITICS.

>> FRANK, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED "THE AGE OF GRIEVANCE," WHICH IMMEDIATELY BRINGS A LOT OF THINGS TO MIND.

GIVE US ONE THING THAT KIND OF SPARKS YOUR THINKING IN THIS AREA.

>> AT A CERTAIN POINT, SO MUCH OF WHAT I WAS HEARING FROM POLITICAL CANDIDATES BOILED DOWN TO THESE OVERWROUGHT AND SOMETIMES ILLEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS THAT MINGLED WITH THE REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF AND THE URGENT CAUSES, AND KIND OF TURNED THE SOUNDTRACK OF OUR PUBLIC LIFE INTO THIS DIN OF COMPLAINT, COMPLAINT, COMPLAINT.

AND IT SEEMED TO ME WE WERE LIVING IN A KIND OF GRIEVANCE CULTURE, AN AGE OF GRIEVANCE, AND I REALLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT THERE, I WANTED TO LOOK AT WHAT IT WAS COSTING US, AND I WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, CONTEMPLATE HOW WE MIGHT PIVOT TO A BETTER PLACE.

>> YOU OPEN WITH -- THIS WON'T SHOCK TOO MANY PEOPLE.

A NUMBER OF ANECDOTES FROM FOX NEWS, WHERE THE OPINION HOSTS IN PARTICULAR SEEM TO REALLY RELY ON THIS AS KIND OF A BUSINESS MODEL.

AND YOU DESCRIBE A PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE THAT SEEMED TO REALLY SET OFF A NUMBER OF THEIR HOSTS, JUST TELL THAT STORY, IF YOU WOULD.

AND WHAT IT IS ABOUT IT YOU FOUND SO TROUBLING.

>> YEAH, SO, I MEAN, ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO, WE HAD A REAL BABY FORMULA SHORTAGE, A LOT ABOUT IT IN THE NEWS, BUT WHAT HAPPENED ON FOX NEWS, ON SEAN HANNITY'S SHOW AND THEN KIND OF BECAME AN OBSESSION OF FOX NEWS PERSONALITIES AND OF THE KIND OF TWITTER RIGHT, WAS, HE SHOWED THIS PICTURE THAT HE SAID WAS BABY FORMULA BEING KIND OF HELD BACK FROM THE PUBLIC AND STOCKPILED AND BEING GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHO HAD IMMIGRATED ILLEGALLY, TO MIGRANTS ON THIS SIDE OF THE BORDER, AND THEY WERE GETTING BABY FORMULA AND YOU AMERICANS, YOU ARE NOT GETTING BABY FORMULA.

BUT IF YOU ZOOMED IN ON THE PICTURE HE WAS SHOWING, IT WASN'T BABY FORMULA.

IT WAS POWDERED MILK FOR OLDER CHILDREN, WHICH WAS NOT IN SHORT SUPPLY.

BUT THIS US VERSUS THEM SCENARIO, THIS ATTEMPT TO WHIP PEOPLE INTO A STATE OF FURY ABOUT THE WAY THEY WERE BEING WRONGED, WAS NOT JUST KIND OF PART AND PARCEL OF FOX'S BUSINESS MODEL, OR REALLY THE ESSENCE OF IT, BUT IT WAS THE KIND OF THING THAT HAPPENS IN POLITICS INCREASINGLY AND ALL THE TIME.

WE ARE -- WE ARE ASKED TO BE ANGRY, WE ARE ASKED TO CONSIDER HOW WRONGED WE ARE.

THIS HAPPENS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM.

IT'S PAN PARTISAN.

AND SO, I BEGAN THERE, BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUCH AN EMBLEMATIC EPISODE.

>> YOU SAID THAT THIS IS ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, BUT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF FAIRNESS, AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE YOU THINK THIS HAS KIND OF MANIFESTED ON WHAT WE WOULD CALL THE POLITICAL LEFT.

WHAT'S ABOUT EXAMPLE OF THAT?

>> WHEN BRITTNEY GRINER WAS HORRIFICALLY AND UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED IN RUSSIA, I SAW ON THE LEFT, WHEN I WENT TO TWITTER AND I LOOKED AT SOME ACCOUNTS ON THE LEFT, WHEN I WAS JUST READING COMMENTARY IN PUBLICATIONS THAT HAD A LEFTWARD LEAN, I SAW THE COMPLAINT THAT SHE WAS NOT GETTING MUCH ATTENTION, THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND AMERICANS DIDN'T CARE ENOUGH, BECAUSE SHE WAS BLACK, BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN, AND BECAUSE SHE WAS A LESBIAN.

NOW, RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY IS VERY REAL.

SEXISM IS VERY REAL.

BRITTNEY GRINER WAS GETTING MORE DISCUSSION AND MORE EXPOSURE THAN ANY POLITICAL PRISONER I CAN REMEMBER IN THE LAST DECADE.

IN FACT, A LOT OF US ONLY LEARNED ABOUT PAUL WHELAN, WHO IS STILL BEING HELD BY THE RUSSIANS, BECAUSE OF THE BRITTNEY GRINER STORY.

AND WHAT CONCERNS ME ABOUT THAT, AND WHERE THAT IS A PART OF GRIEVANCE CULTURE THAT IS SO DISTURBING AND DESTRUCTIVE, IS WHEN YOU CLAIM RACISM, SEX SCHISM, HOMOPHOBIA, IN SITUATIONS WHERE THAT DOESN'T FIT, YOU GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS A WAY TO DISMISS YOU WHEN YOU'RE URGENT AND NECESSARY WAY.

BUT THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF GRIEVANCE RUN AMUCK ON THE LEFT.

>> YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS A KIND OF NOT JUST A SORT OF POLITICAL PROBLEM, BUT A CULTURAL PROBLEM, SOMETHING YOU FEEL LIKE HAS KIND OF INFUSED THE KIND OF BROADER AMERICAN EXPERIENCE OF PUBLIC LIFE, WHICH YOU SAY IN THE BOOK IS, YOU KNOW, WHERE THERE WAS TROUBLE, WHERE THERE WAS DISAPPOINTMENT, WHEN DREAMS WERE UNREALIZED, WHEN GOALS WERE UNMET AND SOMETIMES EVEN WHEN THINGS WERE GOING PERFECTLY WELL, BUT NOT EXACTLY PERFECTLY, THEY LOOK FOR INSULT AND INVARIABLY FOUND IT, EVEN IF THEY HAD TO INVENT IT.

SO, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS STARTED?

>> WHY HAVE WE GOTTEN HERE?

I THINK THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT STREAMS, YOU KNOW, THAT FEED THIS CONFLUENCE.

INCOME INEQUALITY, THE DECLINE OF SOCIAL MOBILITY IN AMERICA.

THE LEGITIMATE SENSE AMONG MANY AMERICANS THAT OPPORTUNITY ISN'T EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED, AND THAT OUR GROWTH AND OUR FUTURE, OUR BRIGHT FUTURE, ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

SOCIAL MEDIA IS AN ENORMOUS AXEL RAPT OF THIS, BECAUSE WHILE THE INTERTHREAT WAS THIS GREAT PROMISE OF CONNECTEDNESS, IT IS THIS GREAT CURSE OF DISCONNECTEDNESS THAT ALLOWS US TO SORT OURSELVES.

AND I THINK ONE MORE BIG COMPONENT OF THIS IS A WHOLE NEW AMERICAN PESSIMISM.

THAT REPRESENTS A REAL ALTERATION, EVEN RUPTURE IN THE AMERICAN PSYCHE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SURVEY DATA, IT USED TO BE THE CASE THAT WHEN YOU SAID TO A RANDOM SAMPLING OF AMERICANS, DO YOU THINK YOUR CHILDREN WILL HAVE A BETTER, BRIGHTER FUTURE THAN YOU DID, OR, WILL HAVE A BETTER LIFE THAN YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW, DEPENDABLE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WOULD SAY YES.

THAT'S NO LONGER THE CASE.

AND THAT'S A REAL PROFOUND CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IT AFFECTS THE WAY WE RELATE TO ONE ANOTHER.

>> SOME OF THOSE THINGS -- THIS IS THE THING WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT HERE, FRANK, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THOSE GRIEVANCES ARE REAL.

THERE IS VAST INCOME INEQUALITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND EVEN FOR SOME GROUPS, ESPECIALLY LESS EDUCATED AMERICANS, THEIR LIFE EXPECTANCY IS ACTUALLY GOING DOWN.

SO, THE SUBSTANCE OF SOME OF PEOPLE'S GRIEVANCES IS CORRECT.

RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

THE FOUNDATION AND THE CORNERSTONE OF SOME OF THE GRIEVANCES, NOT ALL OF THEM, IS CORRECT.

THE PROBLEM BECOMES WHERE YOU TRAVEL WITH THEM.

WHERE YOU TAKE THEM.

SO, YOU MENTIONED LIFE EXPECTANCY DECLINING AMONGST SOME AMERICANS AND THAT'S PARTICULARLY TRUE AMONG LESS EDUCATED AMERICANS AND A LOT HAS BEEN SAID AND WRITTEN ABOUT PEOPLE IN THE QUOTE UNQUOTE HEARTLAND IN AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY FACTORY CLOSINGS AND BY DRUGS, AND A LOT OF THAT DIMINISHED LIFE EXPECTANCY HAS TO DO WITH DRUG DEATHS, RIGHT?

SO, TALKING ABOUT THAT, FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THAT, WHOSE LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THAT, TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND TO ASK THE QUESTION, IS THE GOVERNMENT PAYING ME AND THE PEOPLE I LIVE AMONG ENOUGH ATTENTION, IS IT COMING UP WITH THE RIGHT SELECTIONS THAT'S A GOOD GRIEVANCE.

BUT YOU SEE THAT CARRIED TO PLACES THAT ARE LOOPY AND DESTRUCTIVE.

J.D.

VANCE WHO IS CURRENTLY, SEEMINGLY, ON DONALD TRUMP'S SHORT LIST FOR VICE PRESIDENTIAL RUNNING MATE CONSIDERATION, ACTUALLY WENT ON A TALK SHOW I QUOTED IN THE BOOK AND SAID THAT HE BELIEVED BIDEN, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WANTED A POROUS BORDER, BECAUSE MAKING SURE CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FENTANYL GOT ACROSS THE BORDER WOULD UP THE DEATHS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND WOULD ELIMINATE TRUMP VOTERS.

NOW, THAT IS GRIEVANCE RUN AMUCK.

THAT'S A CARTOONISH EXAMPLE.

BUT THAT HABIT OF GOING FROM SOMETHING LEGITIMATE TO THE REALMS OF THE ABSURD, THAT HAPPENS IN OTHER INSTANCES, AS WELL.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE AMERICAN SOUNDTRACK HAS BECOME A KA KOFNY OF COMPETING COMPLAINTS.

SOME ARE RIGHTEOUS, SOME ARE URGENT AND OTHERS FRIVOLOUS.

THOSE DISTINCTIONS ARE TOO OFTEN LOST ON THE COMPLAINERS.

SO, THIS IS A QUESTION OF WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO ASK, HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHAT'S FRIVOLOUS AND WHAT'S SERIOUS?

YOU KNOW, WHO IS TO DECIDE THAT?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, IN SOME SENSE, VOTERS GET TO DECIDE THAT BY WHO THEY PUT IN OFFICE.

IT IS A SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENT, BUT FOR ME, WHAT I WOULD SAY, AND I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY NOT A CONTROVERSIAL THING TO SAY, IT'S FRIVOLOUS IF IT'S J.D.

VANCE SAYING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WANTS DRUGS COMING ACROSS THE BORDER TO KILL TRUMP VOTERS.

IT'S FRIVOLOUS IF SEAN HANNITY IS CALLING POWDERED MILK INFANT FORMULA.

LIKE, WHEN YOU ACTUALLY INVENT FACTS AND WHEN YOU BECOME SO OVERWROUGHT THAT ALL YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS CONSTRUCT A NONEXISTENT US VERSUS THEM NARRATIVE, WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO WHIP PEOPLE INTO FURY, WHETHER IT'S TO RAISE DONATIONS IN A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, A LA MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, OR TO GET ELECTED AND RIDE THE CURRENTS OF ANGER INTO OFFICE IN AN INDISCRIMINATE AND SELF-SERVING WAY, ALL OF THAT, TO ME, WOULD BELONG IN THE CATEGORY OF THE FRIVOLOUS.

>> YOU MAKE CLEAR IN THE BOOK THAT THIS KIND OF GRIEVANCE CULTURE THAT YOU SPEAK ABOUT DIDN'T BEGIN WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT HE CERTAINLY IS EMBLEMATIC OF IT.

HE'S CERTAINLY ON TRIAL, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, HE'S CURRENTLY ON TRIAL IN NEW YORK, WHERE HE'S MADE VERY CLEAR THAT HIS, YOU KNOW, GRIEVANCES, ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS.

BUT COULD YOU JUST BE MORE SPECIFIC ON HOW YOU THINK THAT HE STOKED THIS KIND OF CULTURE OF GRIEVANCE AND WHAT ROLE HE'S SPECIFICALLY PLAYED IN IT?

>> HE STOKED IT IN SO MANY WAYS, BUT ONE RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE, AND THAT HAS CONTINUED TO THIS MOMENT IN TIME, HE BASICALLY SAID TO HIS SUPPORTERS, ALL OF THE CULTURAL ELITES THAT YOU BELIEVE LOOK DOWN ON YOU AND THAT YOU DISLIKE OR MAYBE EVEN DESPISE, THEY'RE AGAINST ME, TOO.

THEY LOOK DOWN ON ME, TOO.

SO, VOTE FOR ME AS A MEASURE OF REVENGE AGAINST THEM.

RIGHT?

THAT WAS THE NEGATIVE PART AND IT WAS A BIG PART OF THIS POLITICAL MESSAGE, THE CORNERSTONE OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER.

HE WAS SAYING, YOU ARE RIGHTLY ANGRY AT PEOPLE IN SOCIETY THAT YOU THINK HAVE HAD AN EASIER TIME THAN YOU.

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THEY ARE BAD PEOPLE WHO LOOK DOWN AT THE REST OF US.

NOW, THE CRAZY POLITICAL SORCERY HERE IS, TRUMP IS ELITE HIMSELF, BUT HE SOMEHOW MADE HIMSELF AN AMBASSADOR OF A WHOLE DIFFERENT GROUP OF AMERICANS.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I -- LIKE, IF YOU WANT TO TORMENT THEM, THE GREATEST WAY IS BY EMBRACING ME.

THAT WAS A MESSAGE OF HIS ACROSS THE YEARS, AND HE DISTILLED IT AND, YOU KNOW, FOR LACK OF A BETTER VERB, PERFECTED IT, JUST ABOUT A YEAR AGO, WHEN HE LAUNCHED HIS CURRENT CAMPAIGN TO GO BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE, AND HE USED FOUR WORDS THAT I THINK WILL LONG BE REMEMBERED, AND THAT I THINK ARE JUST THE PERFECT DISTILL LAKE OF HIS POLITICAL IDENTITY.

HE TOLD THE PEOPLE, I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION.

THAT IS GRIEVANCE ON STEROIDS.

>> YOU KNOW, SO, LET'S -- I'M ALSO INTRIGUED BY YOUR NOTION OF, LIKE, HOW DO WE DECIDE WHAT'S SERIOUS AND HOW DO WE DECIDE WHAT'S FRIVOLOUS?

IF IT'S A MATTER OF WHO THE PUBLIC ELEVATES, YOU KNOW, BY THAT STANDARD, THE J.D.

VANCES, THE DONALD TRUMPS, ALL THOSE WHO ARE EMBLEMATIC OF THAT SORT OF THE LANGUAGE OF GRIEVANCE, THEY ARE SETTING THE PRIORITIES, RIGHT?

SO, IF PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN THESE PEOPLE WITH THAT MESSAGE OF GRIEVANCE, DOES NOT THAT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE PRIORITY THAT THE PUBLIC AT LARGE, WHOEVER VOTED FOR THEM, WASN'T EVERYBODY, GIVES TO WHATEVER THEY'RE SAYING?

>> IT DOES.

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT PRIORITY IS WHOLLY WARRANTED AND IS JUSTLY AND ACCURATELY GIVEN.

BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY, BECAUSE I REALLY WANT US TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER BETTER, RATHER THAN TO, IN THE CASE OF, LIKE, SAY THE MAGA MOVEMENT AND TRUMP SUPPORTERS, RATHER THAN TO JUST REFLEXIVELY LOOK DOWN AND SAY, THEY'RE ALL CRAZY OR WHATEVER.

I THINK IN THAT SITUATION, AS IN MANY OTHERS, WHAT'S CONSTRUCTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE IS TO ASK, OKAY, DONALD TRUMP IS GRIEVANCE RUN AMUCK, DONALD TRUMP WEAPONIZS GRIEVANCE IN A WAY THAT TRAVELS SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH AND WE SHOULD NEVER STOP CALLING THAT OUT.

WHY DOES THAT MESSAGE RESONATE, WHAT ARE THE REAL FRUSTRATIONS THAT IF WE -- THAT IF WE LOOKED AT HARDER AND ATTENDED TO AND TALKED ABOUT IN A MORE MATURE WAY, COULD WE COME UP WITH MORE COLLABORATIONS AS A SOCIETY AND COULD WE MAKE THE CRAZY PART OF IT RECEDE A LITTLE BIT?

THOSE ARE THE QUESTIONS I WANT TO ASK, THOSE ARE THE DISCUSSIONS I WANT TO HAVE.

BECAUSE I THINK WE'RE IN A REALLY, NOT JUST DIVISIVE, BUT DYSFUNCTIONAL PLACE.

>> ONE SORT OF SOLUTION THAT YOU OFFER, I FOUND REALLY FASCINATING, THAT THE GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA, JOSH SHAPIRO, ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER OPENING UP A LARGE NUMBER OF STATE JOBS TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A FOUR-YEAR DEGREE.

THE ARGUMENT BEING THAT A LOT OF THESE JOBS DIDN'T NEED ONE, DIDN'T REALLY REQUIRE ONE.

AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S SO IMPORTANT?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT HAS TO DO WITH SORT OF THE CALL FOR COMEDY AND CIVILITY THAT YOU'VE BEEN CALLING FOR?

WHY WOULD THAT HELP?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT HELPS?

>> I THINK THAT HELPS ENORMOUSLY IN BOTH THE SYMBOLIC AND SUBSTANTIVE LEVEL.

INTERESTINGLY, THAT HAS BECOME SOMETHING OF A TREND AMONG GOVERNORS.

IT HAPPENED IN UTAH, A BUNCH OF OTHER STATES.

HE WAS ONE OF THE EARLY ONES TO DO IT.

AND BY DOING IT, VIA EXECUTIVE ORDER ON HIS FIRST DAY IN OFFICE, HE WAS ATTACHING GREAT SYMBOLIC AND MESSAGING WEIGHT TO HE WAS RECOGNIZING THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T SUPPORT HIM AS A DEMOCRAT, WHO DON'T SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY SEE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS A PARTY OF EDUCATED ELITES WHO LOOK DOWN ON PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE AS MUCH EDUCATION WHO AREN'T AS INTELLECTUALLY REFINED OR WHATEVER.

HE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT SHOWS THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

HE WANTED TO HELP AS MANY PEOPLE THAT DID NOT VOTE FOR ME AS IT WILL PEOPLE WHAT DID VOTE FOR ME.

I'M NOT JUST REWARDING THE FAITHFUL.

I'M SHOWING VOTERS THAT I AM THE GOVERNOR OF EVERYONE, I CARE ABOUT EVERYONE, AND I WANT TO EXTEND OPPORTUNITIES IN WAYS THAT YOU MAY NOT ASSOCIATE NORMALLY WITH ME OR MY PARTY.

THAT IS SUCH A CONCILIATORY ACT, THAT IS SUCH A DEFT EXPRESSION OF EMPATHY, AND I THINK IT CHANGES THE TONE SOMEWHAT.

JOSH SHAPIRO IS THE GOVERNOR OF A VERY PURPLE STATE.

I BELIEVE THE MOST RECENT POLLS SHOW THAT IT LOOKS LIKE PENNSYLVANIA, IF THE ELECTION WERE TODAY, WOULD GO TO TRUMP.

AND YET JOSH SHAPIRO HAS A ROBUST, ROBUST APPROVAL RATING.

AND IT'S BECAUSE HE'S DOING THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

AND THERE'S AN -- THERE'S A GREAT LESSON AND A MODEL IN THAT FOR OTHER POLITICIANS AND FOR THE REST OF US.

>> AND, OKAY, SO, WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF US?

WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE, THAT FRANK BRUNI COULD DO?

>> I'M A PROFESSOR AT DUKE, AND IN MY CLASSES, I'M VERY CLEAR WITH STUDENTS THAT I WANT DISCUSSIONS THAT ARE DIVERSE, I WANT THEM TO WORK REALLY HARD TO HAVE RESPECT FOR AND LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO DOES AGREE WITH THEN.

NOW, THAT'S JUST ONE SMALL ENVIRONMENT, THAT'S A TINY SEED, BUT IF MORE OF US WITHIN THOSE DOE MAYMAINS WHERE WE HAVE INFLUENCE PRIORITIZE ENGAGEMENT ACROSS LINES, RESPECT FOR PEOPLE WITH WHOM WE DISAGREE, IF ENOUGH OF US DID THAT IN ENOUGH ENVIRONMENTS, IT MIGHT MOVE THE NEEDLE.

>> BUT STILL, HAVING SAID ALL THAT, THIS LEAVES A WOUND.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT THEN BECOMES HARD TO HEAL.

AND IT ALSO CREATES AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE FEEL JUSTIFIED IN STAYING IN THEIR ENCLAVE, AS IT WERE, BECAUSE IT FEELS BETTER.

>> NO, THAT -- AND THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS ME, AND THE -- THE PORTION OF THE BOOK THAT I THINK IS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME IS WHERE I DISCUSS ALONG THOSE LINES WHAT THIS IS COSTING US.

AND IT'S COSTING US THE ABILITY TO HAVE ANY KIND OF CONVERSATION ACROSS DIFFERENCES.

AND IT'S CREATING THIS SORT OF TIT FOR TAT CONSTANTLY RACHETED UP DYNAMIC THAT YOU DESCRIBE.

FOR SOME REASON, PEOPLE THINK, I NEED TO BE MORE PROVOCATIVE THAN THE OTHER SIDE, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW I WIN THE DAY, AND IT'S SHOUT LOUDER, IT NEED TO USE MORE HYPERBOLIC VVOCABULARY.

THEY'RE CONFUSING CONFRONTATION WITH CONVICTION.

AND THEY'RE CONFUSING PROVOCATION WITH PASSION.

AND IT JUST BECOMES THIS DEAFENING NOISE THAT SENDS EVERYBODY EVEN DEEPER INTO THEIR CORNERS, THAT HAS THEM MANNING THEIR BATTLEMENTS IN AN EVER MORE AGGRESSIVE WAY.

WE NEED TO PAUSE AND STOP AND SAY, WHERE DOES THAT GET US?

WHERE IS IT LEADING US?

NOWHERE PRODUCTIVE AND CONSTRUCTIONIVE.

AND ARE WE REALLY PREPARED TO BE TRAPPED IN THIS CYCLE FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND DECADES?

BECAUSE AT THE FAR END OF THAT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A COUNTRY EVEN MORE DYSFUNCTIONAL THAN THE ONE WE HAVE NOW.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE GO TOO FAR DOWN THAT ROAD THAT THERE'S ANY TURNING BACK.

I THINK WE CAN TURN BACK NOW, BUT WE NEED TO TAKE A REALLY GOOD, LONG, HARD LOOK AT THE WAY WE TALK TO ONE ANOTHER.

THE WAY WE BEHAVE, AND WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES IF IT'S WHO WE REALLY MEAN TO BE.

>> FRANK BRUNI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> A LONG, HARD LOOK, INDEED.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, IT'S LIGHTS, CAMERA, ACTION IN CANNES, AS MOVIE STARS GATHER FOR THE 77th EDITION OF THE FILM FESTIVAL.

JAN FONDA, LILY GLADSTONE, GRETA GERWIG ALL WALKED THE RED CARPET.

BUT IT WAS MESSI, THE DOG FROM "ANATOMY OF A FALL" THAT STOLE THE SHOW.

THIS YEAR'S FESTIVAL HAS BEEN MARKED BY BOTH HUMOR AND POLITICS.

THE LAWSUITEST WORK OF THE ACCLAIMED IRANIAN FILMMAKER MOHAMMED RASOLOV, IS SET TO PREMIERE EVEN WITH HIS ABSENCE.

FORCED INTO HIDING AFTER MAKING THE FILM IN SECRET.

ON THE BRIGHTER SIDE, THOUGH, MERYL STREEP RECEIVED THE PRESTIGIOUS AWARD, INJECTING LIGHT MOCKERY INTO HER THANK YOU SPEECH.

>> I'M SO GRATEFUL TO RECEIVE THIS -- THIS HONOR FROM THIS GREAT ARTIST AND FROM YOU ALL.

BECAUSE CANNES -- CANNES, OKAY, AMERICANS, WE SAY CANNES.

WE THINK IT'S FANCY TO SAY CANNES.

WHEN IT'S WRONG.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

MERYL STREEP SIGNING OUT FOR US.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND