May 16, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ON THE FRONT LINE IN KHARKIV AS RUSSIA ATTEMPTS TO BREAK THROUGH, AND I SPEAK EXCLUSIVELY WITH UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER RUSTEM UMEROV WHO IS WITH HIM.

AND I GET ANALYSIS WITH THE FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER GENERAL WESLEY CLARK.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> IN THE PALESTINIANS WILL NOT HAVE THEIR HOME IN THEIR COUNTRY, THEY WILL NOT BE PEACE BETWEEN US AND THEM.

IF THEY DON'T HAVE A HOME, WE SHALL NOT HAVE A HOME.

>> IN A RARE CONVERSATION, THE ESTEEMED ISRAELI WRITER DAVID GROSSMAN TELLS ME HE IS STILL HOPEFUL THAT WITH A LOT OF HARD WORK, THERE WILL BE A FUTURE OF JUSTICE AND SECURITY FOR ALL THERE, WHILE DESPITE INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, ISRAEL'S INCURSION INTO RAFA IS SET TO INTENSIFY, 600,000 PALESTINIANS BEING FORCED TO FLEE AGAIN.

>>> THEN -- >> THE UKRAINE WAR HAS REALLY BEEN AN EYE-OPENER TO MANY OF US AS TO THE COMPLEXITIES OF OUR OBLIGATIONS TO ANIMALS IN WARTIME.

>> "SAVING THE ANIMALS OF UKRAINE."

FILMMAKER ANTONY BLINKEN TELLS ANTON PTUSHKIN TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE HEROES OF THIS WAR.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, AND WE BEGIN TONIGHT ON UKRAINE AND WITH A SPECIAL INTERVIEW WITH THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER.

THIS AS THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE HAS JUST FINISHED HIS TRIP THERE AND IS WINDING IT UP, DEPLOYING MORE MONEY, PROMISING AID TO HELP BUILD UP THE COUNTRY'S DEFENSE INDUSTRY.

AND THROUGHOUT HIS TRIP, TRYING TO REASSURE KYIV OF WASHINGTON'S SUPPORT, WORDS THAT HIDE A BITTER TRUTH, SEVEN MONTHS OF U.S. DELAY IN SENDING MILITARY AID HAS LEFT UKRAINE'S TROOPS OVERSTRETCHED AND UNDERARMED, AND IT COULDN'T COME AT A WORST TIME, WITH RUSSIA PUSHING AGAINST MULTIPLE FRONTS, INCLUDING THE SECOND LARGEST CITY, KHARKIV.

NOW PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN ON THOSE FRONT LINES ADDRESSING THE SITUATION.

AS I SAID, ALONG WITH HIS DEFENSE MINISTER RUSTEM UMEROV.

AND WE HAVE MANAGED TO REACH HIM IN THAT AREA.

DEFENSE MINISTER UMAROV, DO YOU HEAR ME, AND CAN I ASK YOU TO GIVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THE STATE OF THE FRONT LINES AROUND KHARKIV.

>> HI, CHRISTIANE.

WE IN THE MORNING HAD A MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT IN KHARKIV.

THE SITUATION IS HARD, BUT IT IS UNDER CONTROL.

WE'RE STABILIZING THE SITUATION, BUT STILL WE NEED MORE WEAPONS TO BE ASSISTED WITH.

>> AND WHEN YOU SAY STABILIZING THE SITUATION, YOU KNOW, WE HEAR THERE ARE VOLUNTARY EVACUATIONS.

I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO EVACUATE PEOPLE OR OFFICIALLY PULL BACK CERTAIN TROOPS TO MORE MANAGEABLE AND DEFENSIBLE FRONT LINES.

WHAT IS THE MILITARY SITUATION RIGHT NOW AROUND THE KHARKIV AREA?

>> I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN TO THE VIEWERS THAT KHARKIV CITY HAS A KHARKIV REGION AS WELL.

SO THE RUSSIAN ARE SHELLING TO THE CIVILIANS TO THE CITIES THAT ARE CLOSE TO THE STATE BORDER.

THAT'S WHERE OUR ADMINISTRATION IS EVACUATING PEOPLE, SO THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE UNDER THE RUSSIAN SHELLINGS.

BUT THE CITY OF KHARKIV AND THE -- WE ARE FIGHTING NEAR THE BORDER.

SO THEY'RE CROSSING THE BORDER.

THE INVASION, THE SECOND FRONT STARTED.

SO THAT'S WHY WE ARE REPELLING THEM, AND THAT'S WHY WE WANT TO SAVE LIVES OF PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHY WE WORK WITH THEM TO THE CITY.

>> AND ARE YOU ACTUALLY REPELLING THEM?

I KNOW YOU WANT TO PUT ON A BRAVE FACE, BUT YOU HAVE HAD SEVEN MONTHS OF DELAY IN THE WEAPONS THAT YOU NEED THERE HAS BEEN A BREACH OF THE FRONT LINE OBVIOUSLY AROUND AVDIIVKA AS WE SAW AND OTHER AREAS.

AND THEY'RE TRYING, AS WE'RE TOLD BY YOUR FORCES, THE RUSSIANS, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MOMENT.

ARE YOU ACTUALLY REPELLING THEM NOW?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, WE ARE IN TEN YEARS OF FIGHTING, TWO YEARS OF FULL-SCALE INVASION.

SO OF COURSE WE ARE STANDING AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

AND THE WEAPONS ARE BEING BROUGHT WITH THE DELAY.

AND THE RUSSIANS ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF IT.

ALL THE APPROVALS CAME SIX MONTHS LATER.

SO THEY WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE, AND THAT'S WHY THEY WANT TO -- THEY STARTED SECOND FRONT NOT TO ALLOW US FOR THESE WEAPONS TO ARRIVE.

BUT NEVERTHELESS, AS I SAID, WE ARE TRYING TO STAY ON THE GROUND, REPEL THE ATTACKS.

THEY'RE USING THE FIGHTER JETS.

THEY'RE USING THE TANKS.

WE ARE ALSO TRYING TO EVACUATE FROM THE CIVILIANS THAT THEY'RE SHELLING, ONLY FROM THE BORDER CITIES.

SO WE'RE ON THE GROUND.

AND AS I SAID IN THE MORNING, ALONG WITH PRESIDENT, ALONG WITH THE CHIEF OF DEFENSE, WE WERE IN THE OPERATIONAL ZONE.

AND I'M STILL IN THE OPERATIONAL ZONE.

>> BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT SAID IN MANY OF YOUR MAJOR MILITARY LEADERS ARE SAYING THAT IT IS CRITICAL, AND YOU'RE IN THE OPERATIONAL ZONE, AS YOU'VE JUST SAID.

YOU SAID YOU NEED WEAPONS.

CAN YOU TELL ME ACTUALLY WHETHER THESE DELAYED U.S.

WEAPONS, WHETHER THE AMMUNITION, WHETHER THE ARTILLERY IS ACTUALLY ON THE FRONT WHERE YOU NEED IT NOW?

>> WE NEED TO DEFEND.

WE NEED AIR DEFENSE, AND WE'RE TRYING TO DEFEND THE POPULATION, BUT WE NEED AIR DEFENSE TO -- FOR THE CRITICAL NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE NEED TO PROTECT ALSO THE FRONT LINES, THE BRIGADES.

AND IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

SO WE NEED MORE ARTILLERY.

WE NEED MORE ARMED VEHICLES, SO THAT'S WHAT WE NEED AT THE MOMENT.

>> I'M JUST GOING TO ASK YOU ONE MORE TIME, HAS ANY OF THE AMERICAN AID REACHED THE SOLDIERS AND THE LINES THAT NEED IT THE MOST RIGHT NOW?

>> IT'S CONSTANTLY REACHING ALL AID IS COMING, BUT WE NEED IT ON TIME AND IN BIG AMOUNTS.

THAT'S WHAT'S THE PROBLEM.

MOST OF THE COMMITMENTS SOMETIMES ARE ARRIVING LATER THAN WHAT WE EXPECT, AND WE NEED WEAPONS ON TIME TO REPEL THE ATTACKS.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN'S AIM IS FOR THE NEXT WEEKS AND MONTHS?

WE'VE HEARD OBVIOUSLY THAT HE WANTS TO CREATE THIS PRESSURE ON KHARKIV.

WE'VE HEARD THAT THE AIM IS TO TAKE ALL OF DONBAS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED FOR?

>> HIS OBJECTIVE NEVER CHANGES.

HE DOESN'T WANT UKRAINIAN INDEPENDENCE AND SOVEREIGN COUNTRY TO BE EXISTING.

HE DOESN'T WANT UKRAINIANS TO BE LIVING IN EUROPE, BEING A PART OF NATO.

SO HE DOESN'T CHANGE ANY PLAN.

HE WANTS TO OPEN A SECOND FRONT.

HE IS TAKING ADVANTAGE.

THAT IS THE REASON THE DELAY OF THE WEAPONS ARRIVING TO UKRAINE.

THAT'S WHAT HE IS DOING.

>> AND YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE LESS PEOPLE, LESS MANPOWER THAN RUSSIA DOES.

THERE IS A, YOU KNOW, TALK ABOUT A MUCH WIDER MOBILIZATION, CONSCRIPTION.

YOU'VE ALREADY LOWERED THE AGE OF CONSCRIPTION.

IT IS VERY TOUGH, I KNOW, POLITICALLY INSIDE UKRAINE.

ARE YOU GETTING MORE MANPOWER?

YOU HAVE EXHAUSTED TROOPS WHO HAVE BEEN THERE, MANY OF THEM, FOR TWO YEARS.

>> CHRISTIANE, WE PASS THE LAW ON MOBILIZATION.

AND BY 18th OF MAY, IT WILL BE AN ACT.

SO IT MEANS WE'RE WORKING TO BRING MORE PEOPLE TO THE FRONT.

WE ARE ALSO OPENING THE RECRUITMENT CENTERS.

WE ARE MAKING TRAININGS FOR THEM.

AND THAT'S A WAR THAT WE NEED TO WIN ON OUR GROUND.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED MORE PEOPLE.

OF COURSE WHAT WE DO IS THAT WE SET RULES FOR MOBILIZATION.

WE GAVE THEM BEST TRAINING WE CAN HAVE.

AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO SHUT DOWN THE HOLES IN THE NEW FRONT.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE HAVING A MOBILIZATION.

>> MR. UMAROV, YOU KNOW THAT SOME 18 MONTHS AGO, SEPTEMBER 2022, YOUR FORCES, YOU KNOW, HEROICALLY TOOK BACK KHARKIV AND THE AREAS AROUND IT AFTER THE RUSSIANS PUSHED VERY, VERY DETERMINEDLY TOWARDS IT IN THE EARLY DAYS AND WEEKS OF THE INVASION.

WE'RE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION NOW.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS, AND CAN YOU REVERSE WHAT RUSSIA HAS REVERSED IN THESE 18 MONTHS?

>> LOOK, THEY'RE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE TRAUMA WE HAVE IN THE WEST, THINKING THAT UKRAINE IS NOT ABLE OR NOT CAPABLE.

WE ARE ABLE.

WE'RE CAPABLE.

WE HAVE A PLAN.

WE'RE -- OUR STRATEGIC GOAL IS TO REACH 1991 BORDERS.

OUR MILITARY GOALS ARE KNOWN TO THE MILITARY, AND WE'RE TRYING TO PROTECT PEOPLE.

WE'RE TRYING TO REPEL THE ATTACK AND RESIST.

SO ARE THEY TAKING ADVANTAGE THAT ARMS DOES NOT ARRIVE ON TIME?

YES.

ARE THEY TAKING ADVANTAGE THAT FINANCING IS NOT BEING COMING ON TIME?

YES, THEY ARE.

BUT IT'S OUR LAND, AND WE HAVE TO PROTECT IT.

>> I GUESS ONE LAST QUESTION.

AS I SAID, IT'S BEEN REPORTED, AND WE'VE SEEN THE EVIDENCE OF A BREACH, AT LEAST ONE MAJOR BREACH THAT ALLOWED THE RUSSIANS TO MOVE IN TO WHERE THEY ARE NOW.

ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT YOU HAVE THE FORCES AND THE DEFENSIVE LINES IN PLACE, THAT THERE AREN'T OTHER BREACHES ALONG YOUR VERY, VERY LONG FRONT LINE?

>> WE'VE BEEN STARTING BUILDING THE FORTIFICATIONS, THE DEFENSE LINES LIKE ALL KINDS OF FORTIFICATIONS INTEGRATED DEFENSE LINES EIGHT MONTHS AGO.

SO WE REACHED NECESSARY -- NECESSARY LEVEL OF THESE DEFENSE LINES THAT ALLOWS US TO REPEL THE ATTACKS.

BUT BECAUSE WE NEED MORE ARMS, WE NEED MORE WEAPONS, MISSILES, AIR DEFENSES, ARTILLERY, THAT'S WHAT IS THE PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT.

SO WE BROUGHT MORE PEOPLE, BUT WE NEED MORE ARMS NOW.

>> WELL, I HOPE YOUR MESSAGE IS GETTING THROUGH.

RUSTEM UMEROV, UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

OUT THERE ON THE EASTERN -- NORTHEASTERN FRONT.

>>> NOW WE'RE JOINED BY THE RETIRED GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, FORMER SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER OF NATO.

HE HAS RECENTLY WRITTEN A PUBLIC MEMO TO THE PRESIDENT FOR THE ATLANTIC COUNCIL ABOUT A NEW STRATEGIC APPROACH, AND SPECIFICALLY FOR WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS ALONG THE LINES THAT YOU'VE JUST HEARD FROM DEFENSE MINISTER UMAROV.

HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS.

WESLEY CLARK, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO REACT TO WHAT YOU HEARD.

QUITE EXTRAORDINARY TO GET THE DEFENSE MINISTER IN THE AREA OF THE FRONT LINES WHERE HE HAS JUST BEEN OBVIOUSLY INSPECTING WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON, ALONG WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M VERY REASSURED TO SEE THAT HE IS UP THERE WITH GENERAL SYRSKYI AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

I'M VERY REASSURED TO SEE THEY'RE REPOSITIONING FORCES AND TRYING TO HOLD THE RUSSIANS WHERE THEY ARE.

IT SEEMS THAT THE RUSSIAN ADVANCE THUS FAR HAS SORT OF RUN OUT OF MOMENTUM.

SO IF THEY CAN CONTAIN IT THERE, THAT'S GREAT.

BUT IT'S TOO EARLY TO REALLY KNOW WHAT THE OUTCOME OF THIS IS.

>> SO TELL ME THAT.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CAPABILITIES THE RUSSIANS HAVE.

ON THE ONE HAND, OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS, THERE WAS A CERTAIN SENSE OF PANIC, YOU KNOW, SINCE THEY BREACHED THAT VITAL AREA, SINCE THEY STARTED TO TARGET KHARKIV, SINCE THEY TOOK THOSE SMALL VILLAGES, SINCE PEOPLE STARTED TO VOLUNTARILY EVACUATE THOSE VILLAGES.

BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IT APPEARS TO HAVE STALLED.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, IT'S OBVIOUSLY A FUNCTION OF MORE -- MORE A FUNCTION OF RUSSIAN COMMAND AND CONTROL THAN IT IS UKRAINIAN RESPONSE AT THIS STAGE.

NOW WHY WOULD THAT BE?

THE RUSSIAN FORCES COME IN.

THEY GET TAPINGLED UP IN A VILLAGE.

THERE IS SOME RESISTANCE THERE.

THEY'RE BEING HIT FROM THE FLANKS.

THEY JUST HAVEN'T BULLDOZED THROUGH THAT OPPOSITION.

MAYBE THEY HAVEN'T STAGED THEIR ARTILLERY EFFECTIVELY.

THEY ARE BRINGING IN THESE GLIDED BOMBS.

THEY DO HAVE ARTILLERY SUPERIORITY IN THE AREA.

THEY JUST HAVEN'T EFFECTIVELY AMASSED THEIR FORCES.

RIGHT NOW IT'S SORT OF A FOOT RACE.

IT'S WHETHER THE UKRAINIANS CAN GET ENOUGH COMBAT POWER UP THERE TO HOLD THIS.

I'M SURE BEHIND THE LINES, RUSSIAN COMMANDERS ARE TRYING TO ORGANIZE TO GET A GREATER PUSH IN.

I DON'T THINK THIS WAS JUST AN EFFORT TO DISTRACT AND BRING ZELENSKYY OUT OF KYIV AND GET HIM ALL UPSET.

I THINK IT WAS MORE THAN A FEINT.

I THINK THERE COULD BE BEHIND IT A SERIOUS EFFORT TO TRY TO PENETRATE AROUND, ISOLATE KHARKIV AND GO DEEPER INTO UKRAINE.

BUT WE DON'T SEE THAT YET.

AND THE UKRAINIANS DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO STRIKE INSIDE RUSSIA WITH ANY SIGNIFICANT FORCE TO BREAK THAT UP.

SO THAT'S WHY I SAY IT'S A LITTLE TOO EARLY TO SEE WHAT THE OUTCOME IS GOING TO BE.

>> SO THIS DELAY IN WEAPONS AND AID HAS MEANT THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN OUTMANEUVERED IN TERMS OF ARTILLERY AND PENETRATION.

THEY CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH AIR DEFENSES.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO USE PLANES AND THESE GLIDE BOMBS, AND THEY DON'T HAVE YETS, OBVIOUSLY, THE UKRAINIANS.

HOW -- HOW LONG CAN UKRAINE CONTINUE WITHOUT LET'S JUST SAY GETTING THE JETS?

>> WELL, THEY'RE NOT TRAINING ENOUGH PILOTS RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S OUR FAULT IN THE UNITED STATES.

WELL SAID WE CAN ONLY TRAIN, AS THE UKRAINIANS TOLD ME, EIGHT F-16 PILOTS.

THAT'S A POLICY DECISION BY THE UNITED STATES.

AND REALLY, CHRISTIANE, THIS WHOLE CONFLICT HAS BEEN DRIVEN BY THE U.S. POLICY TO TRY TO HELP UKRAINE DEFEND WITHOUT GETTING INTO A CONFRONTATION WITH RUSSIA BY HELPING UKRAINE ATTACK.

AND SO UKRAINE IS BEING FORCED BACK.

ITS FORCES ARE BEING BLED OUT.

AND THEN WITH THE SIX-MONTH DELAY, THIS HAS THROWN ANOTHER WRINKLE INTO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PLAN.

BUT I THINK IF YOU LISTEN TO THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE, HE WANTS UKRAINE BACK.

HE WANTS ALL OF UKRAINE BACK, INCLUDING CRIMEA.

SO IT'S GOING TO TAKE A POLICY CHANGE IN WASHINGTON AND NATO TO BE ABLE TO GIVE UKRAINE THE FORCES IT NEEDS TO GO THROUGH THOSE RUSSIAN OBSTACLES, TO BE ABLE TO STRIKE INSIDE RUSSIA, WHERE THE RUSSIAN FORCES CAN STAGE WITH IMPUNITY.

>> OKAY.

>> AND TO PUT THE CONDITIONS IN PLACE, RUSSIA HAS TO CONCEDE AND PULL BACK.

>> WELL, LET ME JUST PLAY THIS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU READ IT, BUT SOME OF US READ IT AS A SLIGHT CHANGE IN U.S. POLICY ALONG THE LINES THAT YOU'RE SAYING.

TONY BLINKEN TALKED ABOUT THEIR ABILITY TO STRIKE HOW THEY SEEM FIT.

AND HE ALSO TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF STAYING UNTIL VICTORY, NOT JUST SO-CALLED AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

I WANT TO PLAY YOU THE SOUND BITE FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

>> WE'VE NOT ENCOURAGED OR ENABLED STRIKES OUTSIDE OF UKRAINE, BUT ULTIMATELY, UKRAINE HAS TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR ITSELF ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO CONDUCT THIS WAR, A WAR IT'S CONDUCTING IN DEFENSE OF ITS FREEDOM, OF ITS SO FORTH SOVEREIGNTY, OF ITS TERRITORIAL.

AND WE'LL BACK UKRAINE WITH WHAT IT NEEDS TO WIN.

>> THAT SOUNDS DIFFERENT TO ME.

>> IT IS.

I THINK THERE IS A DYNAMIC REASSESSMENT GOING ON OF U.S. POLICY.

BUT THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID AND WHAT THE POLICY HAS BEEN.

HE'S ALWAYS BEEN MORE FORWARD LEANING, MORE SUPPORTIVE, AND, YOU KNOW, I'M SURE UKRAINE REALLY APPRECIATES THAT NOW WE'VE GOT TO GET THE REST OF WASHINGTON BEHIND HIM.

AND THAT IS TOUGH.

>> GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, REALLY GOD TO HAVE YOU WITH YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO GAZA, WHERE BATTLES ARE ALSO RAGING.

MINISTER YOAV GALLANT SAYS THEIR RAFAH OPERATION WILL, QUOTE, INTENSIFY AS THEY DEPLOY MORE TROOPS, AND 600,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE THE AREA IN THE LAST TEN DAYS, ACCORDING TO THE U.N.

IN THE NORTH, DESPITE ISRAEL PREVIOUSLY STATING THE AREA WAS CLEAR OF HAMAS, ISRAELI STRIKES IN JABALIA HAVE CAUSED A HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CASUALTIES, FLOODING A NEARBY HOSPITAL.

MEANWHILE, FIVE IDF SOLDIERS WERE KILLED IN A FRIENDLY FIRE INCIDENT ON WEDNESDAY.

AND EVEN ISRAELIS NOW WONDER WHERE ALL THIS IS HEADED.

HERE IS THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD OLMERT.

>> THE MENU FIRST ACROSS THE BOARD, ISRAELIS ARE ENTIRELY RELUCTANT TO TOLERATE THESE CONTINUED MILITARY OPERATIONS WITHOUT ANY OBJECTIVE THAT IS REALISTIC AND THAT IS USEFUL FOR THE ISRAELI INTERESTS.

>> AND AS WE MENTIONED, THE DEFENSE MINISTER YOAV GALLANT, HE HAS BROKEN PUBLICLY WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU OVER WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN GAZA THE DAY AFTER, SAYING THAT HE, GALLANT, WOULD OPPOSE ANY PLAN FOR ISRAELI RULING GAZA, AND THAT ONLY PALESTINIAN ENTITIES SHOULD THE THAT.

AMIDST THIS CRISIS, IN A RARE AND EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, I SPOKE WITH THE ACCLAIMED ISRAELI WRITER AND INTELLECTUAL DAVID GROSSMAN, AUTHOR OF AWARD WINNING NOVEL "TO THE END OF THE LAND," AND SO MANY MORE.

GROSSMAN TELLS ME ABOUT THE ENDURING TRAUMA AMONGST ISRAELIS AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE HORROR OF HAMAS' HOSTAGES STILL IN GAZA, AND THE HUGE DEATH TOLL AMONGST PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

BUT HE TELLS ME HE STILL SEES HOPE WITH A LOT OF HARD WORK FOR A PEACEFUL FUTURE BETWEEN TWO HISTORIC VICTIMS.

DAVID GROSSMAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU MORE THAN SEVEN MONTHS INTO THIS WAR, THIS WEEK HAS BEEN REMEMBRANCE DAY.

IT'S BEEN INDEPENDENCE DAY.

THE HOSTAGES ARE STILL NOT ALL RETURNED.

THE WAR STILL GOES ON.

AND THE SHOCK IS STILL PALPABLE INSIDE ISRAEL.

SO JUST SUM UP FOR ME HOW YOU AND THE COUNTRY ARE FEELING NOW AT THIS POINT.

>> I THINK THE MAJOR FEELING IS SADNESS.

IT'S A FEELING THAT THE TECTONIC PLATES THAT ARE MOVING UNDER OUR FEET, UNDER OUR SOUL EVEN, UNDER OUR BELIEFS, HOPES, EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT.

YOU START TO NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE.

YOU DON'T HAVE WORDS TO DESCRIBE YOUR SITUATION.

YOU'RE MUTED IN A WAY.

>> DAVID, CAN I ASK YOU, THEN, HOW YOU BELIEVE THAT SOMEHOW SLOWLY THESE TECTONIC PLATES MIGHT BE PUT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.

YOU WROTE IN YOUR LAST OP-ED, THIS WAS FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ON MARCH 1st, AS THE MORNING OF OCTOBER 7th RECEDES INTO THE DISTANCE, ITS HORRORS ONLY SEEM TO BE GROWING.

AND THEN YOU TALKED ABOUT NOT JUST THE DEAD AND MISSING FROM ISRAEL, BUT ALSO AT THAT TIME OF WRITING, YOU TALKED ABOUT 30,000 PALESTINIANS KILLED IN GAZA.

NOW IT'S UP TO 35,000.

AND YOU SAID THAT MANY OF THEM WERE NOT HAMAS MEMBERS AND PLAYED NO PART IN THE CYCLE OF WAR, UNINVOLVED, AS ISRAEL CALLS THEM IN CONFLICTESE.

AND YOU SAY LEADERS AND MAYBE OTHERS DON'T WANT TO FACE THE TOTAL REALITY OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> IT'S TOO HARD TO FACE.

IT'S TOO HARD TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT WE ARE DOING.

EVEN IF IN THE BEGINNING WE HAD ALL THE RIGHT AND ALL WHAT IT TAKES TO UNDERSTAND THE REACTION OF ISRAEL, BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKED SUDDENLY IN THE MOST BRUTAL, ATROCIOUS WAY.

YOU KNOW IT, OF COURSE, EVEN THOUGH SO MANY PEOPLE TRY TO FORGET THAT.

AND THEY START TO COUNT HISTORY FROM THE 8th OF OCTOBER.

BUT HISTORY FOR US STARTED ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

AND SUDDENLY, WE FOUND OURSELVES IN HELL.

AND THIS HELL CONTINUES UNTIL NOW.

IF IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS JUSTIFICATION FOR OUR REACTION, BECAUSE IT'S NORMAL.

IF YOU ARE WALKING PEACEFULLY IN THE STREET AND SOMEBODY COMES AND HITS YOU IN THE FACE, YOU HIT BACK.

IT'S INEVITABLE.

BUT THE QUESTION IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT, AND WHAT WE COLLABORATE WHEN WE ARE SURRENDERING TO THE VIOLENCE INSIDE US, WHEN WE ARE -- WHEN WE REFUSE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR PART IN THE DISTORTION OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

NOT OUR PART IN THE ATTACK, THE HORRIBLE ATTACK OF THE HAMAS, BUT ON THE GENERAL SITUATION.

AND HOW COME WE FELL INTO THIS TRAP OF THINKING THAT WE ARE SO STRONG.

WE NEED PEACE DESPERATELY.

WITHOUT HAVING PEACE, WE SHALL NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE NORMAL LIFE HERE.

>> YOU'VE ALSO SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, ON OCTOBER 6th, THE IDEA WAS NORMALIZATION WITH SAUDI ARABIA AFTER THE NORMALIZATION WITH THE UAE AND OTHERS.

BUT YOU SAID THAT THE ISRAELI-SAUDI ACCORD IS NOT UNRELATED TO THE EVENTS OF BLACK SATURDAY BETWEEN GAZA AND ISRAEL.

THE PEACE IT WOULD HAVE CREATED IS A PEACE OF THE WEALTHY.

IT'S AN ATTEMPT TO SKIP OVER THE HEART OF THE CONFLICT.

THESE PAST FEW DAYS HAVE PROVED THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BEGIN RESOLVING THE MIDDLE EAST TRAGEDY WITHOUT OFFERING A SOLUTION THAT ALLEVIATES THE PALESTINIAN SUFFERING.

YOU WROTE THAT OCTOBER 12th.

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT?

>> YES.

DEEPLY SO.

WE CANNOT OVERLOOK THE PALESTINIANS.

THEY ARE IN THE HEART OF THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT.

THIS OF COURSE CANNOT JUSTIFY WHAT HAMAS DID, NOT AT ALL.

EVEN DEEPER NOW, I BELIEVE THAT, BECAUSE WE NEED THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE PALESTINIANS.

WE HAVE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF THE PALESTINIANS.

THIS OF COURSE CANNOT JUSTIFY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, HAMAS DONE ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

BUT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF THE PALESTINIANS WILL NOT HAVE A HOME IN THEIR COUNTRY, THEY WILL NOT BE PEACE BETWEEN US AND THEM.

IF THEY DON'T HAVE A HOME, WE SHALL NOT HAVE A HOME.

IF WE SHALL NOT HAVE A HOME.

THAT WILL NOT HAVE A HOME.

>> YOU TRAGICALLY LOST ONE OF YOUR OWN SONS TO ONE OF THE PREVIOUS ISRAELI WARS WITH THE NEIGHBOR.

IT WAS THE 2006 WAR AGAINST HEZBOLLAH.

AND YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE A VISCERAL CONNECTION WITH THE PERILS OF THIS CONTINUED CONFLICT, WAR, UNRESOLVED SITUATION.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO YOUR CURRENT GOVERNMENT, WHICH WANTS NO PART OF A SOLUTION IT SEEMS OTHER THAN CONTINUING -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY, CONTINUING ISRAELI CONTROL.

>> IT BECOMES HARDER AND HARDER NOT ONLY TO SPEAK TO MY GOVERNMENT, BUT TO LISTEN SOMETHING FROM MY GOVERNMENT.

BECAUSE THEY ARE REFUSING TO TELL US OR MAYBE THEY DON'T KNOW AND PROBABLY THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS TO EXPECT -- TO BE EXPECTED NOW.

WHAT DO THEY WANT AFTER WE FOUGHT FOR SIX MONTHS AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th?

WHAT IS THE PLAN?

WHO WILL -- WHO WILL RULE GAZA, FOR EXAMPLE?

WHO WILL BE THE RULER OF GAZA.

THERE ARE NO ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS.

AND IT'S -- WE ARE PAYING A HEAVY PRICE FOR IT, BECAUSE WE ARE JUST SITTING THERE IN THE HEART OF GAZA, ABSORBING WOUNDS AND KILLINGS OF OUR SOLDIERS WHO ARE STUCK THERE WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.

WE WANTED OUR HOME TO BE A HOME, AND NOT ONLY A FORTRESS.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE STILL STUCK IN A FORTRESS, AND EVEN THE FORTRESS IS NOT AS EFFICIENT AS WE BELIEVE IT IS.

IT IS, AND DON'T FORGET, BY THE WAY, WE ARE SPEAKING FOR SOME REASON.

WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED THE HOSTAGES AND THE KIDNAPPED, WHICH I MUST TELL YOU, I FEEL AS IF A PART OF ME, A PART OF MY SOUL, EVEN A PART OF MY BODY IS ALL THE TIME WITH THEM ABOUT THIS SLOW MOTION NIGHTMARE THAT CONTINUES.

AND THEY ARE THERE IN THE DARKNESS FOR MORE THAN 200 DAYS.

AND THEY ARE THERE WITHOUT FOOD, WITHOUT MEDICATION.

AND IT'S -- JUST UNBEARABLE TO BE IN SUCH SITUATION.

>> DAVID, I AGREE WITH YOU.

IT BEGGARS BELIEF TO IMAGINE WHAT THOSE PEOPLE, ELDERLY, WOMEN, MEN, CHILDREN ARE GOING THROUGH STILL BEING HELD HOSTAGE.

AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING IN FRONT OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE BEHIND YOU, IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE, IN FRONT OF PARLIAMENT, ET CETERA, TO MAKE THAT A PRIORITY.

BUT IT HASN'T BEEN A PRIORITY, IT SEEMS, ACCORDING TO THOSE ISRAELIS WHO ARE STILL DEMONSTRATING.

YOU YOURSELF HAVE TALKED ABOUT A SENSE OF BETRAYAL BY YOUR GOVERNMENT.

AND WE KNOW THAT AS YET, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS NOT ACCEPTED ANY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ROLE IN OCTOBER 7th.

I UNDERSTAND, OF COURSE, THAT IT'S HAMAS WHO COMMITTED IT.

BUT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT ROLE AS WELL IN ALLOWING IT TO HAPPEN ON ITS WATCH.

SO, AGAIN, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WILL LEAD?

>> I'M SURE I THINK THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS NOT KNOWN WHERE IT LEADS TO.

HE IS KNOWN FOR BEING AN EXPERT IN PUSHING AWAY PROBLEMS AND DEALING WITH THEM ONLY WHEN HE HAS TO.

AT A CERTAIN MOMENT, THERE WILL BE SOMETHING IN REALITY THAT WILL FORCE HIM TO MOVE.

IT MIGHT BE A PRESSURE FROM JOE BIDEN.

HOPEFULLY.

IT MIGHT BE PRESSURE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, FRIENDLY COUNTRIES IN EUROPE.

RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS THAT THERE IS NO SOLUTION FOR HIM AND NO -- EVEN IF HE TRIED THE ACHIEVE A SOLUTION.

>> YOU ARE FAMOUSLY, AND YOU STILL ARE, ONE OF THE MAIN INTELLECTUAL LEADERS OF LEFT WING POLITICS IN AND PROGRESSIVE POLITICS IN ISRAEL.

AND THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN DYING A CONSISTENT DEATH SINCE 2000, SINCE THE SECOND INTIFADA.

DO YOU THINK THERE WILL EVER BE A RESURRECTION IN YOUR LIFETIME OF THE KIND OF PROGRESSIVE POLITICS THAT MIGHT LEAD TO A SOLUTION?

>> YOU ASK ME SOMETHING THAT IS HARD TO PREDICT.

THE FUTURE IS VERY FAR.

A LOT DEPENDS ON HOW WE BEHAVE NOW.

IF WE ARE ABLE TO RESURRECT FROM THE ASHES AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER, IF WE ARE ABLE TO REMEMBER OUR GOAL AND OUR HOPE THAT ARE EVACUATING ALL THE TIME, WE NEED TO CREATE IN OURSELVES THE ABILITY TO FIGHT TO FIND SOME MEANING IN THIS LIFE AFTER WHAT WE HAVE SUFFERED AND SEEN AND HAS CHANGED OUR MIND.

WE NEED -- YOU KNOW, ISRAEL IS TOO PRECIOUS TO LEAVE TO IT THE MESSIANIC EXTREMIST FUNDAMENTALISTS THAT WE HAVE THAT ARE NOW SO STRONG IN THE GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY'RE IN A WAY BLACKMAILING NETANYAHU, WHO WANTED TO BE BLACKMAILED BY THEM.

IT'S VERY COMFORTABLE FOR HIM.

>> DAVID, WHEN ISRAEL BEGAN AS A STATE, IT WAS CONSIDERED A DAVID AGAINST A GOLIATH.

AND NOW THE WORLD SEES A GOLIATH.

ISRAEL IS A GOLIATH AGAINST OTHER DAVIDS, LIKE THE PALESTINIANS.

A LONG TIME AGO, IN 1955, HANNAH ARENDT WROTE THE FOLLOWING, "THEY TREAT THE ARABS, THOSE STILL HERE, IN A WAY THAT IN ITSELF WOULD BE ENOUGH TO RALLY THE WHOLE WORLD AGAINST ISRAEL."

THAT'S WHAT HANNAH ARENDT WROTE DECADES AGO.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> I THINK IT TOOK US SOME YEARS TO REALIZE THE MISTAKES IN OUR ATTITUDE.

EVEN THOUGH IT DID NOT SERVE US IN CHANGING THE SITUATION, AND WE FOUND WAYS TO CONTINUE THE OCCUPATION FOR 56 YEARS, JUST IMAGINE, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE THAT IT'S SUCH A HUGE MAGNITUDE NUMBER OF THIS OCCUPATION.

AND I -- I THINK THAT WE ARE ALL PAYING A HEAVY PRICE FOR THIS IGNORING THE OCCUPATION AND FINDING WAYS TO DETER IT, WAYS IN REALITY AND WAYS IN THE MIND.

I DEEPLY BELIEVE THAT OUR WAY TO NOT ONLY SURVIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT TO LIVE FULL LIFE THERE, LIFE WITH RICHNESS AND MULTILAYEREDNESS AND CULTURE AND INVENTIONS, AS WE CAN, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE QUESTION OF THE OCCUPATION.

I WILL NOT BE TIRED OF MENTIONING IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I DON'T WANT TO OCCUPY ANYONE.

I DON'T WANT TO BE OCCUPIED BY ANYONE.

I WANT TO LIVE EQUAL LIFE, LIFE OF MUTUALITY AND BRIGHTNESS.

AND IT CAN BE DONE.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS FAR-FETCHED NOW, AND OF COURSE ALSO IT MIGHT BE HEARD AS A VERY NAIVE DECLARATION.

BUT ISRAEL WAS CREATED BY SOME NAIVE PEOPLE WHO HAD A DREAM.

THIS IS MY DREAM.

I KNOW IT'S, AGAIN, IT SOUNDS NAIVE, BUT DREAMS CAN BE VERY, VERY PRACTICAL.

AND I LIKE ALWAYS WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE, ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, I LIKE THOSE WHO ARE PRACTICAL IDEALISTS.

AND I THINK I AM ALSO LIKE THAT, IF I MAY SAY SO.

AND I DON'T FORGET, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR A SECOND THAT ISRAEL, WITH ALL THE TERRIBLE MISTAKES THAT IT HAS DONE THROUGHOUT THE YEARS, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST YEARS, SHE NOURISHED THE IDEA OF IGNORING THE PALESTINIANS TOTALLY, BUT I DO NOT FORGET THAT ISRAEL WAS CREATED THREE YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND THAT IT HAS CREATED ENORMOUS AGRICULTURE AND CULTURE AND INDUSTRY AND HIGH-TECH AND A MILITARY WHICH IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND WITHOUT THAT, WE WOULDN'T HAVE SURVIVED.

IN A WAY, IT IS -- IT'S THE KIND OF SECULAR MIRACLE.

AND I WISH THAT WE SHALL BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO THIS PATH OF THIS SECULAR MIRACLE.

>> I MEAN, DO YOU THINK IT WILL EVER GO BACK TO BEING A SECULAR?

RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE EXTREME ORTHODOX NATIONALISTS, RELIGIOUS NATIONALISTS IN CHARGE OF THE GOVERNMENT, PROPPING UP THIS GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THEY ARE THE MAJOR DANGER FOR THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL, AS ARE THE SETTLERS WHO SETTLE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, BY THE WAY.

IT IS AN EXISTIAL DANGER TO ISRAEL, AND WE ALL KNOW IT.

I THINK THE GREAT SCENE OF MR. NETANYAHU IS THE WAY HE WHITEWASHED THOSE PEOPLE, AND BROUGHT THEM INTO THE GOVERNMENT AND GAVE THEM FINES OF MINISTERS.

NO SANE PERSON WOULD HAVE DONE THAT.

AND IT SHOWS, IT JUST PROVES THE CYNICISM OF MR. NETANYAHU.

AND HE'S WILLING TO DO EVERYTHING, EVERY DIRTY TRICK IN THE BOOK YOU KNOW, TO SAVE HIS NECK FROM BEING IN JAIL.

>> AND WE SEE EVEN IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW, I MEAN DREADFUL VIOLATIONS AGAINST PALESTINIANS, ETHNIC CLEANSING, KILLINGS, THE WHOLE LOT.

IT WAS WORST LAST YEAR THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, AND IT CONTINUES.

WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS THIS, BECAUSE IT GOES TO WHAT YOU SAID.

AND YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, A WRITER, A THINKER, SOMEBODY PEOPLE TURN TO UNDERSTAND.

AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THESE TWO TORTURED PEOPLES, THE TRAUMA OF BECOMING REFUGEES IS FUNDAMENTAL AND PRIMAL FOR BOTH ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, AND YET NEITHER SIDE IS CAPABLE OF VIEWING THE OTHER'S TRAGEDY WITH A SHRED OF UNDERSTANDING, NOT TO MENTION COMPASSION.

AND IT SEEMS THAT RIGHT NOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS FOR EVERYBODY TO INTERNALIZE.

EVERYBODY IS A VICTIM.

BOTH SIDES ARE VICTIMS IN THIS, AND THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO EMERGE FROM IT.

HOW DO YOU THINK IN YOUR -- IN YOUR DOMAIN, WRITING, LITERATURE, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP TO TELL THESE STORIES?

>> WELL, LITERATURE IS A GOOD VEHICLE TO CREATE EMPATHY, TO CREATE UNDERSTANDING, TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF THE CONFLICT NOT ONLY FROM YOUR OWN EYE AND AN EYE THAT IS TOTALLY TRAPPED BY ITS SITUATION, BUT ALSO FROM THE EYE OF YOUR ENEMY, OF YOUR CURRENT ENEMY, TO BE ABLE TO FIND NEW WORDS THAT WILL IGNITE OR RE-IGNITE THE FEELINGS THAT WE FEEL REGARDING THE CONFLICT.

TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE MISERY OF YOUR ENEMIES, IT'S NOT AN EASY THING TO DO.

AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT LOSING MY DIDTY AS AN ISRAELI, AS A JEW.

NOT AT ALL.

BUT BEING ISRAELI, BEING A JEW, BEING A WRITER ALLOWS ME TO LOOK AT OUR CONFLICT FROM A SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW WHICH IS NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL PARALYZED BY OUR OWN POINT OF VIEW.

BUT IF YOU ALLOW YOURSELF EVEN IT CAN BE USED WITHIN ARGUMENTS WITHIN THE FAMILY, IF YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO LOOK AT THIS REALITY FROM SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, TO LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY, TO LISTEN TO THE WAY YOUR ENEMY IS SEEING YOU, BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS THE ENEMY WHO SEE FIRST THE DISTORTIONS THAT HAVE OCCURRED BECAUSE OF THE LONG WAR.

I WILL NOT EVEN USE THE WORD "PEACE" BECAUSE PEACE, SHALOM HAS BEEN POLLUTED IN SO MANY WAYS THAT I DON'T THINK IT'S USEFUL TO USE IT NOW.

BUT I'LL TALK ABOUT A DIALOGUE.

I'LL TALK ABOUT GRADUALLY BEING SENSITIVE TO THE PAINS OF YOUR ENEMY, TO THEIR HUMILIATION.

AND MAYBE YOU REALIZE HOW EASY IT IS TO REDEEM THEM FROM THEIR HUMILIATION BY CHANGING YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS THEM.

AGAIN, I KNOW IT'S VERY HARD TO DO.

THE BRAIN IS FLOODED WITH BLOOD, AND THERE IS SUCH GROWING HATRED, AND SUCH IMPOSSIBILITY OF IMAGINING BETTER SITUATION.

BUT I THINK THIS IS IF THERE IS A ROLE FOR A WRITER, FOR AN INTELLECTUAL IS NOT ONLY WRITING GOOD STORIES, BUT BEING ABLE TO SUGGEST THIS FLEXIBILITY TO BE YOURSELF AND TO BE YOUR ENEMY AT THE SAME TIME.

NOTHING WILL BE TAKEN FROM US.

OUR IDENTITY AS ISRAELIS IS SO ENTRENCHED THAT SOMETIMES IT PARALYZES US.

BUT MAYBE THIS PLACE OF PARALYZE SERIES THE WAY WHERE WE CAN IF WE MELT IT CLEVERLY, IF WE MASSAGE OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, THEN SUDDENLY WE STOP BEING A VICTIM.

AND BELIEVE ME, CHRISTIANE, FOR ME AS AN ISRAELI, AS A JEW, NOT TO BE A VICTIM, THIS IS A GREAT THING.

>> IT'S A GREAT WAY TO END THIS WONDERFUL CONVERSATION.

DAVID GROSSMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> A CLEAR MORAL CLARION CALL FROM DAVID GROSSMAN.

IT WAS AN AMAZING CONVERSATION.

SO MUCH, SO MUCH TO THINK ABOUT THERE.

>>> AND FROM THE DEPTHS OF WAR AND MISERY EMERGES A COMMON CAUSE IN UKRAINE AS THEY ARE BANDING TOGETHER TO RESCUE PEOPLE'S PETS LEFT BEHIND BY THOSE WHO WERE FORCED TO FLEE.

SOME EXTRAORDINARY EFFORTS DOCUMENTED BY FILMMAKER ANTON PTUSHKIN, AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHY HE MADE "SAVING THE ANIMALS OF UKRAINE."

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

ANTON PTUSHKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR FILM, "SAVING THE ANIMALS OF UKRAINE," IT TAKES A DIFFERENT TYPE OF LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY TO THE PEOPLE AND TO THE ANIMALS.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO MAKE THIS?

>> FRANKLY, IT JUST -- WE COME UP WITH IDEA BACK THEN IN 2022 WHEN WE SAW IN THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, THERE WAS A MASS AMOUNT OF PHOTOS AND VIDEOS OF PEOPLE TRYING TO SAVE THEMSELVES WITH THEIR ANIMALS, SOMETIMES RISKING THEIR LIVES.

AND WE WERE SO STRUCK BY THIS FOOTAGE.

SO WE DECIDED TO JUST, YOU KNOW, TO INVESTIGATE THIS THING.

AND AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A HORRIBLE TIME, THE MOST DARK TIME I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

I LITERALLY SAW THAT I'M GOING DIE NEXT DAY OR ANOTHER DAY.

AND THOSE PHOTOS AND VIDEOS WITH PEOPLE AND ANIMALS, THEY WERE SOME KIND OF LIGHT OF HOPE AMIDST THE DARKEST TIME.

SO WE DECIDED TO FOLLOW THIS TOPIC.

AND TWO YEARS LATER, WE CAME UP WITH THE FILM.

>> THE ENTIRE WORLD IS SEEING THE DEPTH OF ANIMAL SUFFERING.

>> PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

ANIMALS, THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND.

>> THE UKRAINE WAR HAS REALLY BEEN AN EYE-OPENER TO MANY OF US AS TO THE COMPLEXITIES OF OUR OBLIGATIONS TO ANIMALS IN WARTIME.

>> NO ONE IS GOING TO BE LEFT BEHIND, INCLUDING THEIR PETS.

>> YOU INTRODUCE US TO SOME AMAZING INDIVIDUALS, PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T START THEIR LIVES AS ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS WHO WOULD BE SURPRISED TO FIND THEMSELVES DOING THIS.

BUT WHY DO YOU THINK SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR THEIR WHOLE LIVES, WHY ARE THEY NOW OUT THERE TAKING CARE OF DOGS AND CATS AND ANY KIND OF ANIMAL THAT THEY CAN FIND?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS WAR HAS CHANGED FOREVER EVERYONE.

BECAUSE I USED TO BE A -- BEFORE THIS INVASION.

RIGHT NOW I'M A DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, THEY STARTED TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CONTRIBUTE SOMEHOW TO THIS WAR.

AGAIN, AS ONE OF OUR TALENTS SAID THAT I CAN HELP ANIMALS, AND I JUST HAVE TO DO THAT.

BECAUSE I WANT TO HELP SOMEHOW.

BUT, I MEAN, THE BRAVERY, WE WERE AMAZED BY THE BRAVERY OF SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE LITERALLY, YOU KNOW, GOING TO THE FRONT LINES UNDER BOMBING, AND TRYING TO SAVE ANIMALS OR TIGERS LIKE BIG CATS.

FOR ME, IT'S JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY BRAVERY.

>> YEAH, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT.

YOU SHOW US A LION THAT HAS BEEN RESCUED.

AND IT WASN'T ALONE.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PERSON WHO RISKS HER LIFE TO DO THIS, AND WHAT IS SHE FINDING WITH THESE BIG ANIMALS?

>> THIS BRAVE WOMAN, HER NAME IS NATALIA PROPOVA.

AND SHE HAS BEEN SAVING BIG CATS, LIONS, TIGERS FROM MILITARY ACTIVE ZONES FOR TWO YEARS.

SO THIS BRAVE WOMAN, SHE TRANQUILIZE THESE BIG CATS HERSELF AND DRIVE IN FROM THESE MILITARY ACTIVE ZONES TO KYIV TO SAVE THEM.

AND SHE FOUND THESE LION CALLED RETZLE, AND HE WAS BEING KEPT LIKE A PET IN A TINY CAGE.

HE WAS UNDER BOMBARDMENT.

SO HE HAD REALLY SEVERE SYMPTOMS OF PTSD.

>> WE AS PEOPLE AND ANIMALS, WE SHARE ALMOST THE SAME SUFFERING.

SO ANIMALS CAN SUFFER REALLY SEVERE.

AND SHE BROUGHT THIS LION TO KYIV TO A SAFE ZONE, BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT THERE IS NO SAFE ZONE RIGHT NOW IN UKRAINE.

AND THIS POOR LION AGAIN WAS UNDER RUSSIAN MISSILE STRIKE, AND HE WAS IMMIGRATED EVENTUALLY TO SPAIN.

AND HE RECOVERED.

HE RECOVERED.

AND THAT'S AN AMAZING STORY.

>> SO FROM THE BIGGEST CATS YOU ALSO HAVE THIS STORY THAT SEEMED TO CAPTURE A LOT OF HEARTS AND MINDS IN UKRAINE OF VERY SMALL CAT STUCK ON THE SEVENTH FLOOR OF JUST A BOMBED-OUT BUILDING.

IT'S REMARKABLE THAT IT WAS EVEN SPOTTED.

>> YEAH.

IT'S ACTUALLY IT'S A MIRACLE.

AND NOT EVEN SPOTTED, BUT THIS CAT, I MEAN, HE SURVIVED DURING 60 DAYS WITHOUT FOOD AND WATER, AND I ASK A LOT OF PEOPLE, HOW COME?

HOW DID IT HAPPEN?

AND NOBODY CAN TELL ME.

HOW IT HAPPENED, WHY HE SURVIVED.

BUT THE TRUTH IS HE SURVIVED AND BECOME ONE OF THE SYMBOLS OF THIS WAR.

SYMBOLS OF STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF UKRAINIANS.

AND THE NAME OF THIS CAT IS SHAFA.

>> IT'S SUCH A HEARTWARMING STORY, YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH.

>> FOR ME, IT'S, I DON'T KNOW, WHY WE ARE MOVED SO MUCH BY ANIMALS, BUT FOR ME, THIS WHOLE MOVIE, IT'S ABOUT THIS CLOSENESS BETWEEN PEOPLE AND ANIMALS AND OUR PETS.

AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT, YEAH, THIS IS MOVIE ABOUT THE WAR, BUT IT'S JUST A HEARTWARMING AND KIND MOVIE.

>> CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PATRON?

THIS IS POSSIBLY THE MOST FAMOUS DOG IN THE WORLD NOW.

BUT IN CASE SOMEBODY IN OUR AUDIENCE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THIS LITTLE JACK RUSSELL TERRIER, WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT HIM?

>> HE WAS BEFORE THE WAR HE WAS JUST A REGULAR DOG.

I MEAN, REGULAR JACK RUSSELL TERRIER.

BUT BECAUSE HIS DOG FATHER, DOG PARENT IS COLONEL OF ENGINEER TROOPS.

SO HIS BASIC JOB IS TO FIND THE MINES, HE TEACH PATRON WHEN THE FULL INVASION STARTED TO BASICALLY TO LOOK FOR THE MINES.

AND PATRON BECOME LIKE A BOMB-SNIFFING DOG.

>> PATRON'S TRAINING BEGAN WITH GETTING ACCUSTOMED TO THE SOUND OF EXPLOSION.

ALONG WITH THE SMELL OF GUNPOWDER.

>> HE PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS.

WITHIN A SHORT PERIOD, HE HAD TRADED IN FETCHING STICKS AND SLIPPERS FOR SLEUTHING OUT EXPLOSIVE OBJECTIVES.

EVEN EXPLOSIVES HIDDEN DEEP IN THE GROUND.

>> HE IS REALLY TINY, AND HE WEIGHS ONLY 4 KILOGRAMS, BUT IN ORDER TO TRIGGER THE MINE, YOU HAVE TO PRESS 5 PLUS KILOGRAMS.

SO HE HAS THIS SPECIAL ABILITY.

HE IS INVULNERABLE, LIKE A SUPERMAN.

SO HE TAKES CARE OF THE MINES.

YEAH, THE MOST INTERESTING THING THAT HE IS CHEERING UP ALL PEOPLE OF UKRAINE, AND HE HAS BEEN RAISING A LOT OF MONEY FOR ENGINEER TROOPS BECAUSE A LOT OF ENGINEERS UNFORTUNATELY THEY CONTINUE TO BLOW UP ON THE MINES AND SOME LOST THEIR LIMBS.

AND PATRON HELPS THEM WITH REHABILITATION.

AND PROSTHETICS.

>> YOU FIND THROUGHOUT THE FILM THE IMPACT THAT AN ANIMAL IS ABLE TO HAVE, WHETHER IT'S ON A CHILD WHO IS HEALING, AN ADULT WHO IS HEALING IN THEIR OWN WAY, OR YOU EVEN HAVE SCENES OF SOLDIERS WHO ESSENTIALLY ARE STILL FIGHTING, BUT THEY'RE KIND OF MAYBE ADOPTING SOME OF THESE ALONG THE WAY.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I WAS AMAZED, BECAUSE I WENT TO FRONTLINE, AND I SAW LIKE A LOT OF SOLDIERS WHO KEEP, YOU KNOW, THE STRAY DOGS AND CATS NEXT TO THEM.

AND THEY FIND IT QUITE AMUSING, BUT THEY DO IT BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT HELP -- IT HELPS DRASTICALLY TO COPE WITH THE STRESS THEY'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH.

JUST KEEPING THE TINY CATS CLOSE TO YOU, IT MEANS YOU'RE LIKE A HOME.

YOU'RE AT HOME.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT I CAN SURELY SAY THAT ANIMALS, PETS, THEY TREMENDOUSLY HELPS YOU TO COPE WITH THE SYMPTOMS OF PTSD AND COPE WITH THE STRESS.

AND WE'VE SEEN IT LIKE MANY TIMES.

AND I BELIEVE THAT KEEPING ANIMALS IN YOUR HOUSE IS JUST REALLY HELPS TO FOR YOUR PSYCHE, FOR YOUR MENTAL HEALTH.

>> YOU GO TO WHAT LOOKED LIKE A NATURE PRESERVE TYPE OF AREA, AND YOU SHOWED HOW THE ECOLOGICAL DAMAGE THAT THE WAR IS TAKING ON OTHER ANIMALS IN THE ENVIRONMENT.

TELL OUR AUDIENCE ABOUT THAT.

>> I'VE BEEN TO A COUPLE OF NATURE RESERVES, AND ONE OF THESE RESERVES IS CLOSE TO ODESA, WHICH IS THE BLACK SEA.

AND WE WERE FOLLOWING THE SCIENTISTS WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE MASS MORTALITY OF DOLPHINS IN THE BLACK SEA.

SOME OF THESE DOLPHINS ARE ENDEMIC, WHICH MEAN THAT THE BLACK SEA IS THEIR ONLY AREA OF HABITAT.

AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FIVE OR 10,000 CREATURES THAT DIED AT LEAST IN 2022 WHEN THERE WAS A LOT OF RUSSIAN SUBMARINES AND RUSSIAN WARSHIPS USING THEIR SONARS.

SO I BELIEVE THAT, AND SCIENTISTS SPEAK ABOUT THAT, THAT THE SONARS CAUSE LIKE ACOUSTIC TRAUMA FOR DOLPHINS.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S CAUSED THE MASS MORTALITY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE REAL SCALE OF THESE EVENTS ARE UNKNOWN BECAUSE A LOT OF AREAS, THEY'RE STILL UNDER RUSSIAN OCCUPATION.

A LOT OF NATURAL RESERVES STILL ARE UNDER RUSSIAN OCCUPATION.

SO WE DON'T CLEARLY KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT THERE.

SO RUSSIAN IS COMMITTING ECHO CIDDE FOR SURE.

THE CONSEQUENCE WILL BE TREMENDOUS, BUT WE CAN'T CLEARLY SAY RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE TOTAL CONSEQUENCES.

BECAUSE, AGAIN, WAR IS STILL GOING ON.

>> IN MAKING THIS FILM AND FOR OTHER REASONS, YOU'VE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH IN UKRAINE NOW FOR THROUGHOUT THIS CONFLICT.

HOW -- HOW HAVE THE PLACES THAT YOU GREW UP CHANGED?

>> I MEAN, I GREW UPIN LUHANSK, I DON'T HAVE A HOME BECAUSE MY CITY IS UNDER OCCUPATION FOR MORE THAN TEN YEARS.

KYIV BECOME MY SECOND HOME.

BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S, AGAIN, UNDER LIKE THREATS.

AND WHILE WE'RE SPEAKING WITH YOU, I MEAN RUSSIANS, THEY ARE TAKING ATTEMPTS TO INVADE.

LIKE THEY LITERALLY CROSSED THE BORDER OF UKRAINE AGAIN AND TRYING TO ASSAULT KHARKIV, WHICH IS THE SECOND BIGGEST CITY IN UKRAINE.

AND THEY'RE JUST LIKE WIPING OUT THE CITY, TRYING TO LEVEL TO IT THE GROUND.

SO, YEAH, I SEE A BIG -- RIGHT NOW.

>> HERE YOU ARE PROTEST PEROT MOATING THIS FILM.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE POSSIBLY FRIENDS WHO YOU'RE LOSING IN THIS WAR.

>> YES.

AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, LIKE THIS MOVIE FOR ME IS AN ATTEMPT TO CAPTURE THESE HISTORICAL MOMENTS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE TALENTS THAT I SHOT, THEY'RE DEAD RIGHT NOW.

UNFORTUNATELY.

>> SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU'VE SHOT FOR THIS FILM ARE HERE NO LONGER?

>> YEAH, YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE THEY WERE -- LITERALLY I KNOW ONE SOLDIER WHICH I SHOT ALMOST 1 1/2 YEARS AGO IN DONBAS, AND HE WAS KILLED IN THE MAY 2023.

AND I SHOT HIM WITH A REALLY FUNNY DOG.

HIS NAME WITH PINK.

AND IT WAS REALLY ADORABLE DOG.

BUT AFTER HIS DEATH, HIS WIFE, THE WIFE OF THIS SOLDIER, SHE DECIDED TO ADOPT THIS DOG IN MEMORY OF HER DECEASED HUSBAND.

AND RIGHT NOW THIS DOG LIVE WITH THE WIFE.

SO, AGAIN, FOR ME IT'S JUST A HEARTWARMING STORY.

>> BEFORE THIS, YOU WERE A TRAVEL BLOGGER AND VLOGGER.

YOU HAD A YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

IT WAS QUITE SUCCESSFUL.

PEOPLE IN UKRAINE, AS WELL AS PEOPLE IN RUSSIA WATCHING AND COMMENTING.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT LIFE?

>> IT'S GONE, UNFORTUNATELY.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, THE STORY OF PATRON IS REALLY PROMINENT, BECAUSE PATRON COMPLETELY CHANGED HIS LIFE.

AND FOR ME, IT'S REALLY -- IT'S REALLY THE SAME.

SO, YEAH, I USED TO BE A TRAVEL BLOGGER.

BUT YOU KNOW, CHERNOV WHO IS THE DIRECTOR OF "20 DAYS IN MARIUPOL," ACADEMY AWARDED FILM THIS YEAR, HE SAID I WOULD RATHER NOT HAVE BECOME THE FILMMAKER FOR SUCH A CAUSE.

THAT'S MY CASE.

REALLY, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE COMMENTARIES ABOUT THE WAR, BUT I HAVE TO DO IT, BECAUSE I CAN AND I WANT TO SPREAD THE TRUTH ABOUT UKRAINE AND WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

AND THE FACT THAT WAR HASN'T FINISHED.

>> BECAUSE YOU SPOKE RUSSIAN, YOU WERE A LITTLE BIT OF A CULTURAL BRIDGE TOO BETWEEN UKRAINIANS AND RUSSIANS WHO WERE BOTH WATCHING YOUR CHANNEL.

WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE WAR STARTED WITH THE RUSSIAN VIEWERS THAT YOU HAD?

>> YEAH, I HAD -- I HAD -- MY MAIN CHANNEL IS 5.5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS.

AND LITERALLY HALF OF THEM WERE FROM RUSSIA.

AND I USED TO SPEAK RUSSIAN.

BUT I COMPLETELY QUIT RUSSIAN, AND NOW I'M SWITCHED TO UKRAINIAN.

AND LIKE HALF OF MY AUDIENCE -- ACTUALLY MORE THAN HALF, BECAUSE EXCEPT FROM RUSSIA, THERE ARE PEOPLE FROM KAZAKHSTAN WHO USED TO SPEAK RUSSIAN AS WELL.

YEAH, I LOST KIND OF MY AUDIENCE.

BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS MY CONSCIOUS DECISION BECAUSE I HAVE TO KEEP AND MAIN A UKRAINIAN TRADITION.

AGAIN, LANGUAGE IS A TOOL.

IT'S ACTUALLY A WEAPON.

RUSSIA USES IT AS A WEAPON AGAINST UKRAINE AS A CULTURE, AS A TOOL OF CULTURE OPPRESSION.

SO, AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

>> WHAT'S THE CONSEQUENCE BEEN?

IS THERE ACTION FROM THE RUSSIAN STATE GOVERNMENT TOWARD OR AGAINST YOU, I SHOULD SAY?

>> YEAH, THEY BANNED ME TO ENTER RUSSIA FOR 50 YEARS.

IT'S FUNNY.

I MEAN, THAT'S FUNNY.

I'VE BEEN.

I THINK THAT THEY THOUGHT THAT I'M KIND OF PRO-RUSSIAN GUY.

BUT OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT.

>> IT NEVER FAILS TO IMPRESS ME WHY HUMAN BEINGS SEEM TO CARE IN A DIFFERENT WAY WHEN WE SEE ANIMALS THAT ARE LEFT BEHIND OR IN TROUBLE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE CONNECT TO STORIES ABOUT ANIMALS?

IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE OF CONNECTION THAN WHEN YOU DO A STORY ABOUT THE HUMAN COSTS OF WAR TOO.

>> TO HELP SUCH HELPLESS CREATURES, I THINK THAT SOMETIMES WHEN WE RESCUE ANIMALS, ACTUALLY ANIMALS IS RESCUE US, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY GIVE US SOME MEANING.

AND ESPECIALLY DURING THIS SUCH A HORRIBLE EVENTS, THEY -- WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR HUMANITY, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, I WILL SAY -- I CAN SOUND CYNICAL, BUT, YOU KNOW, HUMAN LIFE BECOME DEVALUED DURING THE WAR.

AND YOU, AGAIN, LOSE YOUR HUMANITY.

BUT ANIMALS, SAVING ANIMALS BRINGS YOU BACK TO BEING HUMAN.

>> THE FILM CALLED "SAVING THE ANIMALS OF UKRAINE."

DIRECTOR ANTON PTUSHKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.