May 17, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

ISRAEL SAYS IT HAS RECOVERED THE BODIES OF THREE HOSTAGES FROM GAZA.

>>> THEN, AS SETTLOR VIOLENCE INTENSIFIES ON THE WEST BANK I SPEAK TO STAFF WRITER RONEN BERGMAN ABOUT THE FORCES TEARING ISRAEL UP FROM WITHIN.

THEN AUTHOR KRISTIN HANNAH DISCUSSES HER NEW NOVEL, "THE WOMEN".

THEN, SIR ANTONY GORMLEY TAKES CHRISTIANE ON A PERSONAL TOUR OF HIS EXHIBITION AT ROYAL LONDON ACADEMY.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JUNOT WOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J BLUSHER, THE FILAMENT AUGUSTINA FOUNDATION, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN .

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE BEGIN WITH NEWS FROM ISRAEL WHERE IDF SPOKESPERSON DANIEL HAGARI JUST ANNOUNCED THE ISRAELI ARMY RECOVERED THE BODIES OF THREE HOSTAGES IN TUNNELS IN GAZA.

>> IT IS WITH A HEAVY HEART THAT I SHARE THE NEWS THAT LAST NIGHT, THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES RESCUED THE BODIES OF OUR HOSTAGES, SHANI LOUK , AMIT BUSKILA AND ITZHAK GELERENTER WHO WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE DURING THE HAMAS MASSACRE ON OCTOBER 7th AND WERE MURDERED BY HAMAS.

>> IT IS THOUGHT OVER 100 HOSTAGES ARE STILL BEING HELD BY HAMAS.

LET'S BRING IN CORRESPONDENT NIC ROBERTSON WHO JOINS ME NOW FROM LONDON.

DEVASTATING NEWS TO HEAR THE BODIES OF THOSE THREE HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN RECOVERED.

SHANI LOUK HAD BEEN SOMEBODY WE HAVE BECOME QUITE FAMILIAR WITH AFTER OCTOBER 7th AFTER PHOTOS OF HER BODY BEING DRIVEN BACK INTO GAZA WERE MADE PUBLIC.

NONETHELESS HERE, FINALLY CONFIRMATION OF HER MURDER ALONG WITH TWO OTHER ISRAELIS WHO HAD ESCAPED THE MUSIC FESTIVAL.

TELL US MORE ABOUT WHAT WE ARE LEARNING.

>> Reporter: WE ARE LEARNING THIS IS AN OPERATION THAT WAS COMBINED BETWEEN THE IDF MILITARY AND THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, USING INTELLIGENCE.

WE UNDERSTAND FROM THE IDF SPOKESMAN THAT THEIR BODIES WERE FOUND IN A TUNNEL.

THE NARRATIVE THAT HE HAS WHAT HAPPENED REALLY UNDERSCORES THE BRUTAL NATURE OF EVERY DAY THAT THE FAMILIES HAVE TO WAIT FOR INFORMATION BECAUSE WHAT DANIEL HAGARI HAS SAID HERE IS THAT THEY WERE MURDERED AND IT WAS THEIR BODIES THAT WERE TAKEN TO GAZA ON OCTOBER THE SEVENTH, SO THESE MORE THAN 200 DAYS SINCE WHERE THEIR FAMILIES HAVE BEEN WONDERING WHERE THEY WERE, WERE THEY IN A TUNNEL, WHERE THEY GETTING ENOUGH FOOD, WERE THEY BEING BRUTALIZED -- THEY HAD HEARD THE EXPERIENCES OF THE OTHER HOSTAGES WHO WERE RELEASED LATE LAST YEAR, BUILT UP THEIR HOPES, HAD THEIR HOPES DASHED, HAD THEIR HOPES BUILT UP, HAD THEIR HOPES DASHED, CAMPAIGNED DAY AND NIGHT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FOCUS ON BRINGING THEIR LOVED ONES HOME, AND IT COMES TO THIS.

THE INFORMATION IS SHOCKING IN ITSELF THAT DANIEL HAGARI SAID THEY DID MANAGE TO SURVIVE THE MUSIC FESTIVAL AND RUN AWAY AS A NUMBER OF PEOPLE DID ON GETTING 15 MINUTES AWAY IN THEIR CAR AND TAKING REFUGE IN THE KIBBUTZ WAS SO CLOSE IN SOME WAYS TO PUTTING THEM IN A PLACE OF SAFETY, YET IT WAS NOT BECAUSE THAT HAD BEEN OVERRUN, AS WELL.

I REMEMBER DRIVING PAST THAT KIBBUTZ A COUPLE OF DAYS PASSED OCTOBER 7th AND THERE WERE VEHICLES STREWN IN THE ROAD, SHUT -- SHOT UP, BABY STROLLERS IN THE ROAD.

IT WAS CHAOS AND CARNAGE, SO FOR THESE FAMILIES NOW, THIS IS THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN FOUND, THAT THEIR BODIES HAVE BEEN RECOVERED , AND ANOTHER PHASE, IF YOU WILL, OF THEIR SUFFERING CAN BEGIN AFTER THEY CAN GIVE THEM A DIGNIFIED BURIAL AT HOME, AND IT IS WHAT ALL THE FAMILIES ARE ASKING FOR.

>> JUST TO LEARN MORE OF THE HORRIFIC DETAILS, THAT THESE THREE MANAGED TO ESCAPE ONE TERRACING ONLY TO FIND WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS SHELTER AND ANOTHER AND BE SO BRUTALLY MURDERED, WHERE DOES THIS PUT THE HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION TALKS AND TALKS OF A CEASE-FIRE NOW IN TERMS OF THIS IS GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL, WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER IS SAYING, THE FOCUS THUS FAR HAS BEEN ON RAFAH AND ITS OPERATIONS THIS PAST TWO DAYS IN PAST WEEK AND ONCE AGAIN, THOUGH, THIS HIGHLIGHTS THE PLIGHT OF THESE HOSTAGES AND THE FACT THAT THESE FAMILY MEMBERS ARE SO DESPERATE TO GET A DEAL DONE TO BRING THE REMAINING HOSTAGES HOME.

>> Reporter: IT REALLY DOES THROW IT INTO VERY SHARP FOCUS.

JUST LAST WEEK, HAMAS SAID THEY SIGNED UP TO HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL THAT ISRAEL HAD NOT BEEN PARTY TO THE DETAILS OF AND WAS NOT IN THE SCOPE OF WHAT THEY WERE WILLING TO AGREE TO BUT WHAT HAMAS DID BY LITERALLY SETTING OUT HOW MANY HOSTAGES IN WHICH HOSTAGES, NOT BY NAME, BUT BY CATEGORY, WOULD BE RELEASED, AND HOW MANY OF THEIR PRISONERS THEY WOULD WANT RELEASE REALLY BUILT HOPES UP FOR SO MANY FAMILIES THAT HAD A DEAL ALMOST WITHIN GRASP.

ANOTHER BRUTAL MOMENT AND MANIPULATION BY HAMAS, CERTAINLY THAT IS HOW MOST PEOPLE INTERPRET IT, BUT IT ALSO PUT PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT AND FOR THE PUBLIC THAT WAS PULLING LAST WEEK THAT SAID RATHER THAN ANOTHER MILITARY OPERATION IN RAFAH TO CLEAR OUT THE LAST OF HAMAS AND GET TO THE LEADERSHIP THERE, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN ISRAEL SURVEYED AND THAT POLL SAID THAT THEY WANTED A DEAL TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES SO THIS REALLY HEIGHTENS THAT FOR HOSTAGE FAMILIES NOW.

ONE OF THE MAIN FORMS OF SAID LOOK, THE RECOVERY OF THESE THREE IN THE BRINGING HOME OF THE REMAINS FOR BURIAL IN ISRAEL IS JUST A REMINDER THAT IT IS WHAT WE WANT.

WE WANT ALL OF THEM BROUGHT BACK TO ISRAEL, SO I THINK IN PART, YOU HAVE THE REAL PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC PRESSURE ON THE STREETS, DEMONSTRATIONS THAT THEY SHOULD CUT A DEAL AND NOT GO FOR THE MILITARY OPTION AT THE MOMENT, AND THE IDF THIS WEEK IN GAZA IN ONGOING BATTLES LOSING A NUMBER OF SOLDIERS SO THERE IS A REAL NEED TO SHOW BY THE GOVERNMENT AND THE IDF THAT THEY REALLY ARE GETTING SOMETHING DONE.

THEY ARE BRINGING SOME OF THE HOSTAGES HOME, AND IT IS A PRESSURE ON THE PRIME MINISTER, AS WELL, TO SHOW THAT HE DOES PRIORITIZE THE HOSTAGES EVEN THOUGH MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT IS NOT AT THE TOP OF HIS LIST.

>> QUITE AN EMOTIONAL WEEK THAT COMES TO AN END NOW WITH THIS DEVASTATING NEWS THAT STARTED WITH ISRAEL'S MEMORIAL DAY FOLLOWED BY ITS INDEPENDENCE DAY ON THIS FOR THICKNESS, AS WELL.

>>> ISRAELIS WILL SURELY UNITE IN GRIEF TODAY AND DEMAND THAT MORE BE DONE TO BRING HOME THOSE HOSTAGES STILL TRAPPED IN GAZA AND NOW WHILE THE WORLD'S ATTENTION TO CONTINUES TO BE ON THE ENCLAVE SINCE THE ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7, THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK HAS SEEN A SPIKE IN VIOLENCE BY ISRAELI SETTLERS.

HOME TO OVER 3 MILLION PALESTINIANS, THE WEST BANK HAS BEEN THE SCENE OF OVER 800 VIOLENT AND SOMETIMES DEADLY ATTACKS AGAINST PALESTINIANS, OFTEN WITH FEW CONSEQUENCES FOR THE SETTLERS.

WHAT WAS ONCE A FRINGE MOVEMENT NOW SITS AT THE HEART OF THE GOVERNMENT, SO HOW DID THESE RADICAL FORCES COME TO BE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT OF ISRAELI POLITICS?

A YEARS LONG INVESTIGATION BY JOURNALIST RONEN BERGMAN AND MARK MEZZETTI FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES TELLS THAT STORY IN DETAIL AND FINDS THAT EXTREMIST SETTLERS SAT NOT JUST PALESTINIANS BUT THE INTEGRITY OF ISRAEL'S DEMOCRACY.

AS WE NOTED, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STORY TO TALK ABOUT IN RELATIVE TO CURRENT EVENTS BUT SOMETHING YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS NOW, AND THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN GROWING POWER AND IMPUNITY AMONG THE SETTLER COMMUNITY AND ITS MOVEMENT, WHAT HAD ONCE, AND MANY STILL VIEW AS A FRINGE MOVEMENT, NOW HAS LANDED TWO VERY IMPORTANT AND CONTROVERSIAL SEATS IN THE CURRENT NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT, AND YOUR INVESTIGATION HELPS ANSWER SOME OF THE QUESTIONS AS TO HOW THIS POWER WAS ABLE TO IMPROVE OVER THE YEARS AND THIS IMPUNITY REALLY FOR THE SETTLEMENT MOVEMENT AS A WHOLE.

TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE KIND WORDS.

TOGETHER WITH MY COLLEAGUES, MARK MAZZETTI, OPPENHEIMER AND MYSELF WE LOOKED AT THIS FOR TWO YEARS.

REGRETTABLY, THE ASSESSMENT, THE DARK PREDICTIONS OF ISRAELI HIRING OFFICIALS INCLUDING LEADERS OF THE ISRAELI DOMESTIC SECRET SERVICE, THOSE ARE NOT LEFT TO HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.

THERE PREDICTIONS IN 2015 BECAME TODAY'S REALITY.

DECADES OF IMPUNITY, DECADES OF FAILURE OR MORE THAN FAILURE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, THE SHIN BET THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT TERRORISM ON THE JUDGES AND THE PROSECUTORS , ALL OF THEM AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF IMPUNITY, OF LOOKING THE OTHER WAY -- THE ISRAELI PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, THIS IS LIKE 20 MINUTES FROM WHERE I SIT NOW IN TEL AVIV BUT FOR MOST OF THE ISRAELI PUBLIC AND ISRAELI MEDIA, THIS HAPPENED IN ANOTHER LAND, AND IN THAT LAND, MASSIVE WAVES OF TERRORISM BY PALESTINIANS WERE DEALT WITH VERY TOUGH LEAD BY ISRAELI MILITARY AND ISRAELI SHIN BET, THE DOMESTIC SECRET SERVICE.

WHEN IT CAME TO JEWISH TERRORISM, IT WAS JUDGED A VERY DIFFERENT WAY.

THERE ARE STILL TWO SETS OF LAWS FOR ISRAELI CITIZENS, EVEN IF THEY ARE SETTLERS , LEGAL SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK, ARE TREATED BY THE ISRAELI CIVIL, CRIMINAL ON PALESTINIANS BY THE MILITARY LAW SO YOU COULD HAVE ONE SUSPECTED TERRORIST ON ONE BEEN ISRAELI AND THE OTHER STANDING ON THE OTHER , THERE SUSPECTED OF DOING THE SAME THING BUT THEY WILL BE DEALT WITH IN A DIFFERENT SET OF TOOLS IN COURTS AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE FORMER, CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THE BEST LEADERS OF THE SHIN BET, A FORMER MILITARY NAVY COMMANDER LEADER SAID , THE CABIN IS SIGNALED THE SHIN BET THAT IF A IS KILLED, AND ISRAELI , AND ISRAELI CITIZEN IS KILLED IT'S HORRIBLE BUT IF AN ARAB PALESTINIAN IS KILLED, IT'S NOT GOOD BUT IT'S NOT THAT BAD.

IN THAT SPIRIT THROUGHOUT THE DECADES LED NOT JUST TO TERRORIST ACTIVITIES BUT ALSO TO MANY THOUSANDS OF VIOLENT ATTACKS AGAINST PROPERTY, AGAINST FARM, AGAINST HER, AGAINST ANIMALS, AGAINST PEOPLE THAT WAS BASICALLY -- BASICALLY WENT UNPUNISHED.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE FORMER SHIN BET CHIEF YOU SPOKE WITH.

I WANT TO READ WHAT ELSE HE SAID.

HE SAID YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHY ALL OF THIS IS IMPORTANT NOW.

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING JEWISH TERRORISM.

WE ARE DISCUSSING THE FAILURE OF ISRAEL AND TO GET BACK TO YOUR EARLIER POINT ABOUT CONVICTION RATES AND THE IMBALANCE THERE, IT IS NOT ANECDOTAL DATA.

FOR YOUR PEACE, YOUR BRING DATA THAT SHOWS CONVICTION RATES FOR ISRAELIS ACCUSED OF VIOLENCE.

AND ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP LOOKING AT MORE THAN 1600 CASES OF VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK BETWEEN 2005 AND 2023 FOUND THAT JUST 3% ENDED IN A CONVICTION.

HOW IS THAT JUSTIFIED.

>> I THINK THERE WAS AN AGGRIEVED SILENCE.

BUT, ANYONE, AND THERE WERE MANY ISRAELI TOP OFFICIALS WHO REALLY TRIED TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

OUR REPORT IS UNIQUE BECAUSE IT IS NOT BASED MAINLY ON NGOS AND NOT UN-AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE.

WE ARE BASING IT ON ISRAELI OFFICIALS, ISRAELI TOP SECRET MEMOS AND DOCUMENTS AND RECORDINGS AND VIDEOS BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY.

IN FACT, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS AT WAR WITH ITSELF.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE, BUT THE CAMP, THE VOTERS WHO BROUGHT NETANYAHU TO POWER, ARE VERY STRONG AND THOSE EXTREMISTS, THE MILITARY OF TREASURER, THE MINISTRY OF NATIONAL SECURITY ARE HOLDING THE COALITION AND ARE NOT ENABLING ANY KIND OF FURTHER POLICY, SO WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT SINCE THIS GOVERNMENT TOOK OFFICE AND ESPECIALLY SINCE THE WAR ON OCTOBER 7 STARTED, THE POLICE STOPPED COMPLETELY ENFORCING THE LAW ON JEWISH SETTLERS.

THERE ARE NOT COMING, AND MOST OF THE CASES, WHEN THEY'RE CALLED FOR HELP BY PALESTINIAN VILLAGERS THAT ARE BEING HARASSED AND THREATENED AND ATTACK.

SOME OF THEM HAD TO LEAVE.

WE HAVE BEEN IN SOME OF THE VILLAGES THAT JUST HAD TO LEAVE AND ARE SEEKING JUSTICE FROM THE SUPREME COURT AND I AM NOT SAYING IT BECAUSE ONLY THE PALESTINIANS TOLD US.

THE SHIN BET VERY IMPORTANT IN CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE SERVICES ARE SAYING THAT THE POLICE STOPPED COMING.

THEY'RE NOT GIVING JUSTICE.

THEY'RE NOT GIVING HELP.

THEY'RE NOT INVESTIGATING AND IN THIS SITUATION, I THINK WHAT ISRAELIS ARE NOW LEARNING IS THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE PART OF THE LAND PATROLLED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY, WITH LAWLESSNESS BECAUSE SOON AFTER THE LAWLESS WILL BECOME THE LAW AND THEY WILL TRY TO LEGISLATE THEIR AGENDA ON EVERYBODY.

>> THAT IS WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING NOW.

WE WERE SHOWING IMAGES OF THE TWO MEN WHO MOST WOULD AGREE ARE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY FOR NETANYAHU HAVING HIS HANDS TIED.

NO ONE IS FEELING SYMPATHY FOR NETANYAHU.

THERE WAS A POINT NOT SO LONG AGO WHERE HE WOULD NOT EVEN BE PHOTOGRAPHED WITH THESE TWO GENTLEMEN BUT TO SAVE HIS OWN POLITICAL CAREER HE DECIDED IT WAS FIND TO BUILD A COALITION WITH THEM AND NOW, BECAUSE THEY CONTROL 14 SEATS, FAST FORWARD TO TODAY, ONE OF THE CONCERNS AS TO WHY THIS WAR IS NOT COMING TO AN END SOONER OR THERE IS NO DAY AFTER PLAN IS BECAUSE OF THESE TWO MEN.

>> WE KNOW THAT.

A FAMOUS ISRAELI COLUMNIST ONCE SAID THAT USUALLY FOR POLITICIANS, THEY HAVE THEMSELVES IN THE CENTER AND ALL THE REST IN THE BACKGROUND.

IF HE EVEN THINKS OF DOING SOMETHING THEY WILL SAY WE WILL LEAD THE -- LEAVE THE COALITION.

HE RECENTLY CAME OUT AND SAID THE MILITARY DOES NOT SUPPORT AND WELL OBJECT AS MUCH AS WE CAN ANY MILITARY RULE OF GAZA WHILE EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE EXTREMISTS ARE NOT JUST CALLING FOR SECURITY REASONS TO CONTROL GAZA.

THEY WANT TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK AS MUCH AS THEY WANT TO ANNEX GAZA AND RE-ESTABLISH THE SETTLEMENTS THAT WERE TAKEN OUT IN 2005.

THIS IS TAKING ISRAEL TO A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION AND I'M JUST THANKFUL TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE, TO ALL THOSE HIGH OFFICIALS WHO HAD NOTHING TO GAIN, BUT RISKING THEMSELVES AND DELIVERING INFORMATION AND DOCUMENTS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT TO THE NEW YORK TIMES AND THE CAYMAN THEY HELPED BECAUSE WHILE HAVING NOTHING PERSONALLY TO GAIN THEY SAID WE HAVE A LOT TO GAIN WHICH IS OUR COUNTRY.

WE ARE SO CONCERNED THAT ISRAEL WOULD STOP BEING A DEMOCRACY BASED ON THE RULE OF LAW THAT WE ARE WILLING TO RISK THOSE.

>> THAT IS WHAT THIS IDEOLOGY DICTATES.

WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS PIECE IS YOU TAKE A STEP BACK TO SHOW HOW WE GOT HERE AFTER 1967, AFTER ISRAEL GAINED THE LAMPS IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, HOW THE SETTLEMENTS CAME ABOUT AND IT WAS NOT JUST THAT THEY WERE BEING BUILT ILLEGALLY.

IT IS THE IDEOLOGY IT WAS BASED ON.

AN EXTREMIST HAD COME TO ISRAEL FROM THE MIDWEST, DEVELOPED A HUGE FOLLOWING BEEN PASSED DOWN TO MULTIPLE GENERATIONS IN HIS FAMILY AND THERE IN OF ITSELF IS THE DISCONNECT BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND WHAT ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED ON, AND THEIR VISION OF WHERE ISRAEL SHOULD BE.

>> YOU KNOW, IN 1994, ONE OF THE FOLLOWERS OF RABBI KAHANE WHO CAME WITH HIM OFFERED -- OPENED FIRE AND MATT SECURED 129 AND THE DAY AFTER, THE PRIME MINISTER WHO WAS LATER ASSASSINATED BY ONE OF THE FOLLOWERS OF KAHANE, AS WELL .

HE SAID TO THE FOLLOWERS OF KAHANE, HE SAID YOU DON'T BELONG HERE.

WE ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME RELIGION.

WE DESPISE YOU.

YOU ARE AGAINST ANYTHING WE BELIEVE IN AND HE WAS COURAGEOUS TO STAND THERE AND REFUSE TO GIVE A PLACE TO BE BURIED BUT ONE OF THE FOLLOWERS OF KAHANE THEN 18 YEARS OLD BUT OLD ENOUGH TO BE RECRUITED TO THE MILITARY, HE ERECTED A SHRINE FOR THIS PERSON WHO MURDERED 29 PEOPLE AND CALLED HIM A SAINT.

HE SAID HE DIED AS A SAINT WITH CLEAN HANDS AND HE IS NOW THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> IN THE SAME SAYING WHO WAS CONVICTED OF INCITING RACISM, AS WELL.

I JUST WANT TO END WITH YOU BY SOMETHING WE HEARD YESTERDAY WHEN CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH LEADING AUTHOR DAVID GROSSMAN.

I WILL JUST READ FOR YOU THE FIRST LINE OF WHAT HE SAID BLAMING NETANYAHU FOR NORMALIZING THESE EXTREMIST AND HE SAID I THINK THE GREAT SIN OF NETANYAHU IS THE WAY HE WHITEWASHED THOSE PEOPLE AND BROUGHT THEM INTO THE GOVERNMENT AND GAVE THEM FILES OF MINISTERS.

NO SANE PERSON WOULD HAVE DONE THAT, YOU KNOW, AND IT PROVES THE CYNICISM OF NETANYAHU.

IS THAT A VIEW YOU THINK MORE AND MORE ISRAELIS CURRENTLY SHARE?

>> YES, WITH NO DOUBT.

IT IS ALSO A FACT THAT NETANYAHU, FACING CHARGES OF CORRUPTION, HAD LESS AND LESS POSSIBLE PARTIES THAT WOULD JOIN HIS COALITION SO INSTEAD HE BUILT AN ALLIANCE WITH THE ULTRA RIGHT AND THE ULTRA RELIGIOUS.

HE EVEN FORCED THOSE TWO TO BUILD ONE PARTY OF MAJOR FORCE, AND HE CONNECTED HIMSELF TO THEM AND MADE THEM PART OF HIS COALITION AND BASICALLY FULFILLED THEIR DREAMS BECAUSE THEY NEED TO JOIN POLITICS IN ORDER TO CONTROL THE SYSTEM FROM THE INSIDE AND THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING EVERYDAY AS WE SPEAK.

>> RONEN BERGMAN, IT REALLY IS A MUST READ DYNAMIC PEACE.

I KNOW YOU SPENT MANY YEARS WORKING ON IT.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>>> NOW, INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE IS RAMPING UP ON ISRAEL AND U.S. STUDENTS ARE DEMANDING A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA AND TRANSPARENCY FROM THEIR LEADERS.

FOR MANY, THE IMAGES OF YOUNG PEOPLE DEMONSTRATING ON CAMPUSES AND CLASHING WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT EVOKES MEMORIES OF THE PROTEST MOVEMENT DURING THE VIETNAM WAR, SETTING USED AS A BACKDROP FOR A HIT NEW NOVEL, "THE WOMEN".

IT SHINES A LIGHT ON THE THOUSANDS OF FUN FORGOTTEN NURSES TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY AND CAME HOME TO A BITTERLY DIVIDED NATION.

>> KRISTIN HANNAH, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN THE AUTHOR OF MORE THAN 20 NOVELS.

YOUR LATEST , "THE WOMEN" TALKS ABOUT THE COME BACK NURSES IN VIETNAM.

TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU FIRST PITCHED THIS IS AN IDEA MAYBE 20, 25 YEARS AGO.

>> I PITCHED IT IN 1997 TO MY THEN EDITOR AND YOU KNOW, WE HAD A LONG TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BOTTOM LINE WAS, SHE HAD BEEN AT BERKELEY IN 1968, MY EDITOR, AND SHE SAID YOU KNOW, THE WORLD ISN'T READY FOR THIS BOOK AND FRANKLY, YOU ARE READY TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

YOU ARE OLD ENOUGH.

YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PERSPECTIVE AND YOU AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH, SO YOU KNOW, COME BACK WHEN YOU THINK YOU ARE AND COME BACK WHEN WE THINK THE COUNTRY IS READY TO HEAR THE STORY.

>> WHAT IS HAPPENED IN THE COUNTRY THAT YOU NOW THINK IS MORE RELEVANT THAN WE ARE READY TO HEAR IT?

>> JUST TO GO BACK A BIT, I WAS A CHILD DURING THE VIETNAM WAR AND MY GOOD FRIEND IN FOURTH GRADE, HER FATHER SERVED AND WAS SHOT DOWN SO BACK IN THOSE DAYS WE HAD THE PRISONER OF WAR BRACELET WHICH WE WORE IN HOPES THAT HE WOULD COME HOME WHEN WE TAKE IT OFF AND SO I HAD THIS BRACELET ON FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND WAS CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT HIM AND THE OTHER SOLDIERS WHO DIDN'T COME HOME AND THEN AS A GIRL, EVEN, I SAW HOW THE SOLDIERS WERE TREATED WHEN THEY DID COME HOME SO THIS WAS THE THING I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT, THE PART OF THE VIETNAM EXPERIENCE I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT AND I KEPT CHECKING BACK IN WITH IT OVER THE YEARS AS I WAS WRITING OTHER NOVELS AND FINALLY, IT WAS MARCH OF 2020 WHEN IN MY HOMETOWN OF SEATTLE, WE WERE ON LOCKDOWN FROM THE PANDEMIC AND I WAS WATCHING THE NIGHTLY NEWS AND SEEING WHAT WE ALL WERE SEEING, THE POLITICAL DIVISIONS THAT WERE TEARING THE COUNTRY APART, AND THE ANGER AND IT FELT VERY MUCH LIKE THE VIETNAM ERA AGAIN, AND THEN I WAS WATCHING OUR NURSES AND OUR DOCTORS WHO WERE ON THE FRONT LINE OF THIS PANDEMIC SACRIFICING SO MUCH FOR ALL OF US AND NOT ALWAYS GETTING THE THANKS AND GRATITUDE AND SUPPORT THAT THEY NEEDED AND THAT IS REALLY WHEN IT ALL CAME TOGETHER AND I THOUGHT OKAY, I AM READY.

I AM READY TO WRITE THIS NOVEL.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT'S TIME AND I AM GOING TO GO FOR IT.

>> THE BOOK CENTERS ON FRANKIE McGRATH.

TELL ME, WHO IS SHE AND WHY IS SHE THE PERSON WHO BEST REPRESENTS WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO?

>> SHE'S NOT BASED ON ANY ACTUAL NURSE BUT SHE IS CERTAINLY INSPIRED BY SEVERAL OF THE NURSES WHOSE MEMOIRS I READ IN RESEARCH AND THEY HAD A LOT OF COMMONALITY WITH THE WOMEN.

A LOT OF THEM HAD COME FROM FAMILIES WHOSE PARENTS HAD PROUDLY SERVED AND -- IN WORLD WAR TWO, YOU KNOW, THE GREATEST GENERATION.

THEY HAD BEEN RAISED TO BE PATRIOTIC.

THEY ALSO CAME FROM THE CONSERVATIVE END OF THE 1950s AND A LOT OF THEM WERE EXTREMELY YOUNG, FRESH OUT OF NURSING SCHOOL AND SO I REALLY WANTED TO SHOW THE FULLNESS OF THE ARK OF A LOT OF NURSES.

NOT ALL OF THEM, OF COURSE, BUT GOING TO WAR, BEING WOEFULLY UNPREPARED EMOTIONALLY AND IN THEIR NURSING SKILLS AND THEN TO BECOME THESE AMAZING COMBAT COMPETENT NURSES AND COME HOME TO A COUNTRY THAT WAS VASTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE THEY LEFT, AND WHERE THEIR RECEPTION WAS UNEXPECTEDLY NEGATIVE FOR THEM, AND LEFT THEM FOR YEARS, TRYING TO COME TO TERMS WITH WHAT THEY HAD DONE AND HOW THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR FRIENDS IN THE COUNTRY FELT ABOUT WHAT THEY HAD DONE.

>> ONE OF THE MORE VISCERAL SCENES IN THE BOOK INVOLVE THE MEDICINE, INVOLVED BEING THERE WATCHING THESE PROCEDURES.

I THINK YOU ARE A LAPSED LAWYER, RIGHT?

HOW DID YOU GET ALL THAT MEDICAL STUFF, AND WHAT WAS YOUR POINT OF BEING SURREALISTIC AND ALMOST BRUTAL IN YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE MEDICINE?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS INTERESTING, WALTER, BECAUSE I REALLY MADE THAT CHOICE TO REALLY MAKE THESE SCENES IN THE SURGICAL UNITS VISCERAL AND BRUTAL AND DIFFICULT, AND THAT WAS FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

FIRST AND FOREMOST ON MY MIND WAS THAT OFTEN IN THIS WAR AND ANOTHER WARS WHEN A FEMALE VETS COME HOME AND SEEK HELP, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE SUFFERING FROM SOME KIND OF PTSD , ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THEY TEND TO HERE IS WELL, YOU WERE NOT IN COMBAT, BECAUSE WOMEN IN COMBAT OFFICIALLY IS A VERY RECENT THING, AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SHOW WHAT THEY HAD GONE THROUGH, BUT THEY HAVE LIVED THROUGH, WHY THEY WOULD HAVE EMOTIONAL TRAUMA STEMMING FROM THIS AFTERWARDS, AND SO THAT IS PART OF THE REASON IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO READ, BECAUSE I WANT THE READER TO UNDERSTAND, THIS SLICE OF WAR AND WHAT IT MEANS AND WHAT IT FEELS LIKE AND HOW IT AFFECTS YOU.

>> YOU ALSO TRIED VERY HARD TO CAPTURE THE DEVASTATION THAT HAPPENED TO THE VIETNAMESE CIVILIANS.

WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, THE THING ABOUT WRITING ABOUT THIS ERA, AND I HOPE ACTUALLY THAT THIS BOOK SPARKS A LOT OF OTHER FICTION ABOUT IT AND A LOT OF OTHER NONFICTION ABOUT IT BECAUSE I THINK THERE ARE SO MANY AVENUES TO BE EXPLORED AND STORIES TO BE TOLD, BUT WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO, YOU KNOW, WAS THE SINGLE WOMAN STORY OF ONE WOMAN GONE TO WAR, THAT REALLY ADDRESSED NOT ONLY THE FUTILITY OF WAR AND THE DIFFICULTIES ENDURED, BUT FROM ALL SIDES, HOW IT AFFECTED OTHER PEOPLE.

OBVIOUSLY, THE STORY OF THE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE AND THE CIVILIANS IS NOT MY STORY TO TELL, BUT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ME THAT IT FELT REAL.

>> YOU KNOW, FINDING LOVE AMID WAR, THE AFTERMATH OF WARS IS ONE OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOKS.

IN THIS CASE, I THINK ONE OF THE CLOSEST RELATIONSHIPS IS WITH TWO WOMEN, I THINK ETHEL AND BARB.

TELL US ABOUT THE FRIENDSHIP AND WHY YOU FOCUSED SO MUCH ON FEMALE FRIENDSHIP HERE?

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE ALL SO USED TO SEEING MALE CAMARADERIE DURING WAR AND WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK AND I SET OUT AND FRANKIE GOES TO WAR AND SHE ENDS UP IN VIETNAM AND SHE ENTERS HER HOOCH, WHICH IS THEIR LIVING QUARTERS, YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD'VE BEEN TWO WOMEN THERE AND I REALIZED THAT IN AS DIFFICULT A SETTING AS THIS, THOSE KIND OF FRIENDSHIPS AND THE HUMOR, THE LOVE, THE DIFFICULTY, THE INTENSITY, ALL OF THAT WOULD COME TO FRUITION AS A FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN THIS WOMEN TO SAVE EACH OTHER DURING THIS REALLY DIFFICULT YEAR AND SINCE FEMALE FRIENDSHIP IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME, I AM SUCH A BELIEVER IN THIS IDEA THAT WOMEN HOLD EACH OTHER UP, THAT WOMEN SPEAK OUT FOR EACH OTHER AND CARE FOR EACH OTHER, IT WAS REALLY GREAT TO HAVE THIS NOVEL THAT IS ABOUT WAR AND ABOUT THE AFTERMATH OF WAR TO ALSO BE ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTALS OF FRIENDSHIP AND THE IMPORTANCE OF FRIENDSHIP AND ABOUT WOMEN BEING ALMOST SOULMATES TO EACH OTHER THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES FACING THE NURSES WHEN THEY CAME HOME IS THAT THEIR SERVICE DID NOT COUNT FOR CERTIFICATION AS NURSING.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS AND WHAT WAS DONE ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING PART OF THE RESEARCH TO ME.

I WAS SHOCKED TO DISCOVER THAT, AS I SAID EARLIER, A LOT OF THESE WOMEN WENT TO WERE VERY YOUNG, RIGHT OUT OF NURSING SCHOOL OR JUST HAVING RECEIVED THEIR NURSING DIPLOMA DEGREES, AND SO HAD VERY LITTLE CLINICAL EXPERIENCE, AND YOU KNOW, THEN THEY GO TO WAR AND THEY ARE THROWN INTO THIS HELL OF COMBAT SURGERY AND SMASH UNITS AND YOU COULD TELL THROUGH THE BOOK AND I CAN CERTAINLY SEE THROUGH THE RESEARCH, THE LEVEL OF NURSING SKILLS THEY WERE ATTAINING OVER THERE , AND FROM SO MANY OF THEIR MEMOIRS AND FROM SPEAKING TO THEM, WHAT THEY FACED WHEN THEY CAME HOME WAS ALL TOO OFTEN A DISREGARD FOR EVERYTHING THEY HAD LEARNED OVER THERE AND SO IN OTHER WORDS, THE HOSPITALS AND THE PEOPLE HIRING THEM IN THE U.S.

WERE LOOKING AT THEIR U.S. SERVICE AND SEEING WELL YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE A BUNCH OF EXPERIENCE HERE SO LET'S START YOU AS A BEGINNER NURSE AGAIN, AND FOR A LOT OF THEM, I THINK THAT LEAD THEM OUT OF THE NURSING PROFESSION BECAUSE THEY HAD SO MUCH EXPERIENCE AND WERE NOT BEING REWARDED FOR THAT.

ALTHOUGH, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I MET A WOMAN WHO IS NOW A JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA, WHO WAS A FORMER ARMY NURSE AND I ASKED HER ABOUT THIS VERY POINT.

I SAID YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS IT LIKE COMING BACK AND BEING TREATED, YOU KNOW, AS A LESSER EXPERIENCED NURSE THAN YOU WERE AND SHE SAID WELL, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE IN VIETNAM, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT CHANGED IN THEM WAS THIS IDEA THAT ONCE THEY HAD BEEN THROUGH THAT AND COME HOME, THEY FELT THAT THEY COULD DO ANYTHING, AND SO A LOT OF THE WOMEN THAT I MET WERE NO DOCTORS OR DENTISTS OR JUDGES, YOU KNOW, SO THEY HAD GONE BACK TO SCHOOL TO BECOME SOMETHING ELSE.

>> THIS WORK IS A PIECE OF HISTORICAL FISSION, LIKE MANY OF YOUR WORKS, ESPECIALLY FAMOUSLY, "THE NIGHTINGALE," WHICH SOLD 4.5 MILLION COPIES.

WHEN YOU WRITE HISTORICAL FICTION, HOW MUCH RESEARCH DO YOU DO AND HISTORY BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY RICH TALE OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN THESE MEDICAL CAMPS IN VIETNAM?

>> IT DOES TAKE A LOT OF RESEARCH TO WRITE A REALLY AUTHENTIC-FEELING HISTORICAL NOVEL.

AS A LOT OF US KNOW, WHAT HISTORY WAS AND WHAT WE THINK HISTORY WAS IS NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING AND SO YOU ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO BE AS TRUTHFUL AND AS AUTHENTIC AND AS REAL AS YOU CAN BE WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF FICTION, BUT THIS ONE WAS PARTICULARLY, I GUESS, SCARY FOR ME TO SET OUT TO WRITE BECAUSE I KNEW THERE WOULD BE SO MANY READERS OF THIS NOVEL IT WOULD ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED THE WAR IN A WAY THAT I HAD NOT, AND SO IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME, ONCE I HAD DONE THE YEAR OF RESEARCH TO UNDERSTAND THE TIME AND THE EXPERIENCES, TO THEN SPEAK TO ACTUAL NURSES AND HELICOPTER PILOTS AND DOCTORS AND RED CROSS WORKERS TO MAKE SURE THAT I WAS TELLING THE STORY IN A REALLY AUTHENTIC AND TRUE WAY AND I WAS SO FORTUNATE TO COME INTO CONTACT WITH DIANE CARLSON EVANS, WHO IS A FORMER ARMY NURSE AND THE FOUNDER OF THE VIETNAM WOMEN'S MEMORIAL, AND SHE ENDED UP BEING MY MENTOR IN THIS AND SHE HAS BEEN JUST A PROFOUND HOUSE -- HELP, AND IT'S BEEN GREAT TO MEET SO MANY OF THESE NURSES AND SEE HOW MUCH IT MEANS TO THEM TO HAVE THE STORY TOLD.

>> TELL ME MORE ABOUT DIANE CARLSON EVANS, WHO WAS SORT OF YOUR HELPMATE, IN A WAY, IN WRITING THIS BOOK.

>> I WAS SO LUCKY TO FIND HER.

SHE HAD WRITTEN THIS BOOK CALLED HEALING WOUNDS, ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE AS A NURSE AND HER EXPERIENCE THEN COMING HOME AND CHANNELING HER ENERGY INTO THE FIGHT FOR A MEMORIAL THAT REMEMBERED HER SISTER VETERANS, AND IT WAS A DECADES-LONG FIGHT FOR HER.

I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH LAST NOVEMBER FOR VETERANS DAY TO GO TO WASHINGTON, D.C. FOR THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF THE WOMEN'S VIETNAM MEMORIAL WITH DIANE CARLSON EVANS AND TO SEE THESE -- LISTS GROUP OF FEMALE VIETNAM VETS AT THEIR MEMORIAL STANDING TOGETHER, TELLING THEIR STORIES.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE HUGGING, THEY WERE CRYING, THEY WERE INTRODUCING THEIR CHILDREN.

IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MOMENTS OF MY LIFE TO WATCH THAT, AND I OFTEN SAY NO, I FEEL LIKE MY BROTHER, WHO I LOST WHEN I WAS YOUNG, IS SOMEWHERE, AND PUT DIANE AND ME TOGETHER BECAUSE IT WAS AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE AND I AM SO PROUD OF HER AND I'M SO PROUD TO SAY THAT SHE HAS JUST BEEN NOMINATED FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANYONE WHO DESERVES IT MORE.

>> AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK, YOU HAVE FRANKIE TALKING ALMOST DIRECTLY TO THE READER AS IF IT WERE ALMOST YOU TALKING TO THE READER AND I'M GOING TO READ FROM THAT PORTION.

YOU SAID, FRANKIE WOULD NOT LET THEM BE FORGOTTEN ANYMORE.

SOMEHOW, SHE WOULD FIND A WAY TO TELL THE COUNTRY ABOUT HER SISTERS, THE WOMEN WITH WHOM SHE HAD SERVED, FOR THE NURSES WHO HAD DIED, FOR THEIR CHILDREN, FOR THE WOMEN WHO WOULD FOLLOW IN THE YEARS TO COME.

MAYBE, LIKE SO MANY THINGS, IT BEGAN SIMPLY WITH WORDS, SPEAKING UP, STANDING IN THE SUNLIGHT, COMING TOGETHER, DEMANDING HONESTY AND TRUTH, TAKING PRIDE.

THE WOMEN HAD A STORY TO TELL EVEN IF THE WORLD WAS NOT QUITE READY TO HEAR IT, AND THEIR STORY BEGINS WITH THREE SIMPLE WORDS.

WE WERE THERE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT NOTION OF YOU ALMOST TALKING DIRECTLY TO THE READER SAYING, HERE IS WHY I HAD TO DO THIS BOOK.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY IT.

YOU KNOW, AND INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I DON'T KNOW BUT I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT, THAT I WOULD'VE GONE THERE, THAT I WOULD'VE EXPECTED THAT TO BE THE ENDING PASS OF THIS NOVEL WHEN I STARTED, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED OVER THE PROCESS OF RESEARCHING THIS WAS EXACTLY THAT POINT, THAT IT IS A SO IMPORTANT, AND AGAIN I KEEP HITTING ON IT, TO REMEMBER PEOPLE WHO SACRIFICE ON OUR BEHALF AND TO HONOR THEM AND ESPECIALLY NOW, AS THEY ARE AGING, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE, AS A SOCIETY, ARE COLLECTING THE STORIES AND ARE SHOWING THAT WE THINK IT MATTERS.

>> KRISTIN HANNAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THIS HAS BEEN LOVELY.

>>> NOW WE TAKE A MOMENT TO ADMIRE SOME AWE-INSPIRING ART.

SIR ANTONY GORMLEY IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST RECOGNIZING -- RECOGNIZED ARTISTS.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH THE ARTIST AND LOOK BACK NOW AT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HIS WORK AND HOW I CAN PROVIDE PEOPLE A PLACE TO REFLECT ON THEMSELVES AND THE SOMETIMES CHAOTIC WORLD AROUND US.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> LOVELY TO BE HERE.

>> THIS IS AN AMAZING, INCREDIBLE EXHIBITION AND WE ARE SITTING IN A ROOM, WHICH I THINK YOU CALL THIS PARTICULAR ROOM LOST HORIZON?

>> I DO, YES.

>> IT'S ALL FLOATING AND FIXED TO THE WALLS AND CEILINGS.

HOW DID YOU EVEN GET IT INSTALLED?

>> YEAH, PEOPLE ARE VERY INTRIGUED BY THE ENGINEERING BUT THAT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT THE POINT.

>> BUT IT IS PART OF THE GEEWHIZ NATURE OF THIS WHOLE EXHIBITION AND GOES TO WHAT YOU MEAN TO COMMUNICATE.

>> YES, I THINK YOU HAVE TO STOP PEOPLE IN THE TRACKS AND ASK THEM TO THINK AGAIN ABOUT WHAT IS POSSIBLE AND HOPEFULLY THAT OPENS THE DOORS OF IMAGINATION WHEN THEY START RUNNING WITH IT FOR THEMSELVES.

I SAY TO EVERYBODY THAT COMES, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE THE SUBJECT OF THIS EXHIBITION AND YOU MIGHT SAY, EVEN IN THIS ROOM, WHERE THERE ARE 24 INDUSTRIAL FOSSILS OF ME, I THINK THIS ROOM IS REALLY ASKING YOU TO REORIENT YOURSELF IN SPACE, AND I THINK THAT GOES FOR THE WHOLE SHOW.

IT IS REALLY ABOUT MAKING PROPOSITIONS IN THE SPACE THAT HOPEFULLY CATALYZE THAT SPACE AND MAKE THE SUBJECT, WHICH IS THE VIEWER, HYPERAWARE OF HIS OR HER RELATIVE POSITION AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE IN HERE.

>> WHAT I THINK IS AMAZING IS THE BEGINNING, BEFORE YOU EVEN GET INTO THE GALLERY IN THE COURTYARD, THERE IS THAT TINY LITTLE BABY WHICH EVEN LOOKS SMALLER THAN I EXPECTED FROM THE PICTURES THAT I SAW BEFORE COMING IN, AND YOU HAVE JUST LAID IT ON THE GROUND.

I MEAN, IT IS SO VULNERABLE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU WERE DOING WITH THAT.

>> I THINK I JUST WANTED TO MAKE THE POINT THAT ART IS USELESS IF IT DOESN'T, IN SOME WAY, ENERGIZE LIFE.

HERE, WE HAVE A SIX--DAY-OLD BABY, MY DAUGHTER.

I DID NOT MOLD HER, I HASTEN TO ADD, AND I GUESS I JUST WANTED THAT TO BE THE INITIATION OF A SEQUENCE OF THOUGHTS ABOUT HUMAN FUTURES, ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PLANET, SO HERE IS A BABY ALMOST REMOVED FROM THE CHEST OR THE STOMACH OF THE MOTHER, AND PLACED ONTO THE EARTH, AND I THINK THE BABY IS IMMENSELY PEACEFUL.

IT SEEMS TO BE AT EASE AND YET AT THE SAME TIME, AS YOU SAY, IT IS EXTREMELY VULNERABLE AND SEEING IT STRAIGHT OFF PICCADILLY, WHERE THE BUSES WERE PASSED, I GUESS THAT IS JUST ASKING A QUESTION, WHAT IS OUR PART IN MAKING SURE THAT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN'S FUTURE IS AS RICH AND SUPPORTIVE AS OURS?

>> THE BABY IS SCULPTED IN IRON, WHICH IS THE CORE OF THE EARTH.

AND YOU DID THAT DELIBERATELY.

>> EXACTLY.

ALL OF THESE WORKS WAY 630 KG, SO ABOUT THREE QUARTERS OF AN IMPERIAL 10 EACH.

THEY ARE MASS.

THEY ARE DISPLACEMENTS OF A HUMAN SPACE, IN SPACE AT LARGE, AND I THINK OF THEM -- YOU KNOW, THE TRADITIONAL MATERIALS IN SCULPTURE ARE BRONZE AND MARBLE AND I WANTED TO REMOVE THOSE IN ORDER TO FOCUS, IN A SENSE, ON THE ELEMENTAL AND OUR RELATIONSHIP, AS YOU SAY, TO THE CORE OF THIS PLANET.

>> I HAD NOT REALIZED BUT ALL OF THESE FIGURES ARE SOLID.

THESE ARE NOT HOLLOW.

THEY'RE SOLID.

>> VERY SOLID.

>> OH, BOY.

ONLY YOU CAN DO THAT.

NONE OF US ARE ALLOWED TO TOUCH THE SCULPTURES.

>> I'M NOT BOTHERED ABOUT PEOPLE TOUCHING THESE.

>> THERE IS AN IMAGE OF ONE OF YOUR VERY EARLY SCULPTURES, IF NOT THE EARLIEST, I AM NOT SURE, BUT IT IS ALSO A FIGURE LYING IN THE STREET COVERED WITH WHAT LOOKS LIKE A SHEET, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT CAME FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE IN INDIA.

>> I LOST ALL MY MONEY AND PASSPORT AND SPENT A COUPLE OF WEEKS ON THE STREETS AND THAT WAS A VERY FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE.

I HAD A VERY PRIVILEGED UPBRINGING AND YOU KNOW, HAD NEVER REALLY LACKED FOR ANYTHING AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF FOLK WHO HAD NOTHING, BUT GAVE EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW, IT WAS AN AMAZING LESSON, AND THAT WORK, WHICH IS CALLED SLEEPING PLACE, I MADE IT VERY SOON AFTER COMING BACK.

I JUST ASKED A FRIEND TO LIE ON THE FLOOR AND I COVERED HER IN A PLASTER -SOAKED HOSPITAL SHEET, AND IT IS ABSOLUTELY A REPRODUCTION OF WHAT I SAW IN CALCUTTA, BUT ALL OVER INDIA, AND PEOPLE SLEEPING ON THE STREETS, OFTEN WITH A COUPLE OF SLIPPERS LEFT BY THE SIDE OF THE HEAD.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE ALIVE OR DEAD.

THIS WAS, LIKE THE BABY, A DESCRIPTION OF THE MINIMUM SPACE A HUMAN BEING NEEDS TO SURVIVE.

AND CURIOUSLY, THIS INTIMATE THING AGAIN, IN THE WORLD OF BULLET PARKS AND ALL THAT NOISE.

>> IS THE CAVE ALSO A BODY FORM?

>> YES IT IS.

I WILL SHOW YOU IN A MINUTE.

WE CAN GO STAND UNDERNEATH THE HEAD AND YOU DO ACTUALLY SEE THE WHOLE THING.

I LOVE THE ACOUSTICS IN HERE.

IT IS JUST A VERY PARTICULAR FEELING.

>> WOW.

>> IF YOU LOOK UP YOUR, THIS IS NOW THE LEFT ARM, AND NOW WE ARE IN THE TORSO.

I JUST WANTED -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS A GRAND BUILDING.

IN 18TH-CENTURY PALACE, REALLY, AND I JUST THOUGHT TO INTRODUCE OUR FIRST HABITATION, OR OUR FIRST EXPERIENCE, OUR SPECIES' FIRST EXPERIENCE OF SHELTER WAS THIS KIND OF SPACE, WITH THIS KIND OF ACOUSTIC.

IT RETURNS YOU TO, I THINK I WANT FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE, BUT I ALSO WANT TO LINK THAT, IN A WAY, TO MAYBE THIS FEELINGS THAT WE HAD BEFORE WE HAD SPEECH, WHEN WE WERE IN OUR MOTHER'S TUMMIES.

THIS NOISE -- IT GOES ON.

>> THAT IS A PROFOUND RUMBLE.

>> I LOVE IT.

IT IS STILL GOING, ISN'T IT?

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, AND YOU GROW UP AS A FERVENT CATHOLIC, OR AT LEAST IN A FERVENTLY CATHOLIC HOME, AND YOUR FAMILIES TRADITION AFTER LUNCH WAS FOR YOU ALL TO HAVE A NAP.

HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOUR IMAGINATION, YOUR RELATIONSHIP?

>> I THINK THAT IS THE BASIS OF MY WORK, THINKING ABOUT THE BODY AS A VESSEL, AS A PLACE, RATHER THAN AN OBJECT, AND THAT EXPERIENCE OF BEING SENT UP AFTER LUNCH FOR AN ENFORCED REST WHEN I WASN'T TIRED, IN FACT I WAS HIGHLY ENERGIZED BECAUSE I HAD JUST HAD LUNCH, AND LYING THERE WITH MY EYES CLOSED AND FEELING -- IT WAS A PARTICULAR ROOM, THIS ENCLOSED BALCONY ON THE FIRST FLOOR, VERY HOT, WITH A PARTICULAR SMALL, AND VERY BRIGHT AND CLOSING MY EYES AND THE EYELIDS WOULD MAKE THAT LIGHT COMING THROUGH THEM PINK OR RED, AND IT WOULD BE HOT AND ANYWAY, OVER TIME, OVER THE REPEATED ACTION OF GOING UP THERE, THIS SPACE I BECAME FAMILIAR WITH AND BEGIN TO INHABIT IT AND IT TRANSFORMED FROM BEING HOT, RED, AND CLAUSTROPHOBIC TO BE IN INCREASINGLY MORE OPEN AND COOLER AND DARK, AND I OFTEN ASK PEOPLE YOU KNOW, CLOSE YOUR EYES.

NOW WHERE ARE YOU?

YOU ARE IN A SPACE, BUT IT HAS NO OBJECTS.

IT HAS NO EDGE.

IT HAS NO THINGS IN IT.

AND, THIS IS A SPACE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

THIS IS THE SPICE OF IMAGINATION.

THIS IS WHERE WE CAN GO WHEN WE WANT TO BE FREE.

YOU PROJECT HOPEFULLY ONTO THESE SPACES AND THE OBJECTS IN THEM, YOU'RE FEELING, YOUR THOUGHT, AND I THINK THAT IS THE BEST THAT ART CAN DO, RETURN US TO THE MIRACLE OF BEING ALIVE.

>> THERE IS A ROOM BEYOND WHERE WE ARE SITTING NOW.

IT IS THE LAST ROOM WITH A HUGE POOL, AND I THINK YOU HAVE CALLED IT PART OF THE ATLANTIC AND PART OF BUCKINGHAM SHIRE, A.K.A.

MUD.

>> IT IS MUD IN SEAWATER.

IT IS 30,000 L OF THE ATLANTIC AND 25 M3 OF BUCKINGHAM SURE.

>> I LOVE THIS, IT'S SO DRAMATIC.

>> WHAT I LOVE IN A WAYS THAT THIS IS A SELF-PRODUCING LANDSCAPE, THIS IS TERRAFORMING ITSELF AND IT REMINDS ME OF FLYING OVER THE MIDDLE OF AUSTRALIA, AND THIS KIND OF INFINITE, SUBTLE KIND OF BUMPS AND HOLLOWS, BUT IT IS BEGINNING.

YOU CAN SEE IT IS BEGINNING NOW TO BUBBLE A BIT, SO THIS IS A LIVING THING.

THIS IS PRIMAL SOUP.

THIS IS AN ORGANIC PROCESS.

THERE ARE SOME ORGANIC RESIDUES IN HERE, SO THIS IS THE GRAND ROTUNDA IN THE CENTER OF THE ROYAL ACADEMY, AND I'VE DONE THIS -- THIS IS NEWTON'S APPLE IN ARRESTED FALL, MAKING HOPEFULLY, YOU AWARE OF GRAVITY IN A WAY THAT YOU WOULD NOT OTHERWISE BE.

THESE ARE SUPPORTED BY TWO CRANES PERMANENTLY PUT IN, AND YOU KNOW, THESE ARE FREE TO MOVE , AND IT IS DIFFICULT NOT TO -- >> ARE PEOPLE ALLOWED TO TOUCH IT WHEN THEY COME IN?

>> WELL, THEY ARE NOT, REALLY.

I REALLY LIKE THAT SORT OF DIFFICULT PENDULUM FEELING.

I LIKE THE IDEA THAT YOU NEGOTIATE AROUND THESE TWO THINGS.

>> JUST BEAUTIFUL.

YOU HAVE SOME AMAZING, HUGE WORKS OUTSIDE NORTH OF ENGLAND AND ON THE BEACH AT MERSEYSIDE, YOU HAVE ALL THESE FIGURES LIKE THIS, AND NO, YOU ARE PLANNING TO DO SOMETHING ON THE COAST OF FRANCE IN RESPONSE TO BREXIT, I THINK.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT OUR CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE?

WHY ARE YOU BUILDING THEM ON THE COAST OF FRANCE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY PARADOX THAT IN A TIME IN WHICH WE HAVE THE GREATEST POTENTIAL OF UNDERSTANDING THAT WE HAVE WITH THE INTERNET, THIS REALIZATION OF THE NEWEST FEAR, THE ENCIRCLEMENT OF THE GLOBE BY THE HUMAN MIND AND OUR ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE, AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE THIS REACTIVE FORCE THAT IN FUNDAMENTALIST AND RELIGIOUS TERMS AND NATIONALIST TERMS AND I THINK WE CANNOT FACE THE FUTURE OR ANSWER ANY OF THE ISSUES OF SOCIAL JUSTICE WITHOUT TALKING TO OUR NEIGHBORS AND WITHOUT REALIZING THAT OUR FUTURE AND THEIR FUTURE ARE ONE FUTURE AND I WILL GO ON DOING AS MUCH AS I CAN TO WORK ACROSS THE GLOBE TO MAKE PIECES THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO THINK OPENLY ABOUT WHAT IS POSSIBLE AND WHAT IS POSSIBLE FOR OUR SPECIES IN TERMS OF OUR PARTICIPATION IN THE EVOLUTION OF LIFE.

>> YOU ALMOST HAD TO MAKE PEACE.

>> NO, I THINK YOU CAN HAVE HUBRISTIC IDEAS ABOUT WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF ART CAN DO.

I THINK ART IS ALWAYS A SPACE APART, BUT HOPEFULLY ALLOWS YOU TO LOOK BACK AT YOUR OWN LIFE IN THE WORLD AND RECALIBRATE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.

THAT IS THE BEST IT CAN DO.

>> SIR ANTONY GORMLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WOW, WHAT AN INCREDIBLE CONVERSATION.

FINALLY, A LEGACY OF A DIFFERENT KIND.

TODAY MARKS THE 70th ANNIVERSARY OF BROWN VERSUS THE BOARD OF EDUCATION.

THE LANDMARK 1954 SUPREME COURT CASE AND RULING THAT OUTLINE -- OUTLAWED SEGREGATION IN SCHOOLS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN MET WITH SOME OF THE ORIGINAL PLAINTIFFS AND SPOKE WITH THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY MUSEUM FOR THE ANNIVERSARY, LAMENTING THAT SCHOOL EQUALITY IS STILL AN ISSUE, AND THAT THE POTENTIAL OF BROWN VERSUS THE BOARD OF EDUCATION REMAINS UNFULFILLED.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/TRAN04.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.