May 30, 2024

>>> I'M HARI SREENIVASAN IN NEW YORK.

THE FIRST EVER CRIMINAL TRIAL OF AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT ENDED THIS AFTERNOON IN A MANHATTAN COURTROOM.

A 12-MEMBER JURY CONVICTED DONALD TRUMP ON ALL 34 FELONY COUNTS RELATED TO THE HUSH MONEY PAYMENTS CONCEALING AN AFFAIR WITH STORMY DANIELS PRIOR TO THE 2016 ELECTION.

ON THE SECOND DAY OF DELIBERATIONS, THE JURY FOUND THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT FALSIFIED BUSINESS RECORDS IN A SCHEME TO INFLUENCE THE 2016 ELECTION BY KEEPING INFORMATION ABOUT THE AFFAIR FROM THE PUBLIC.

LEAVING COURT TODAY, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP ONCE AGAIN CALLED THE CASE RIGGED AND A DISGRACE, SAYING THE REAL VERDICT WILL BE ON NOVEMBER 5th.

HE ALSO FALSELY CLAIMED THAT THE PROSECUTION WAS UNDERTAKEN BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY ALVIN BRAGG TWEETED SIMPLY, QUOTE, TODAY A JURY FOUND DONALD J. TRUMP GUILTY ON ALL 34 FELONY COUNTS.

SHORTLY AFTER THE VERDICT, THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN RELEASED A STATEMENT IN PART, "IN NEW YORK TODAY, WE SAW THAT NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

DONALD TRUMP HAS ALWAYS MISTAKENLY BELIEVED HE WOULD NEVER FACE CONSEQUENCES FOR BREAKING THE LAW FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN.

BUT TODAY'S VERDICT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FACE A SIMPLE REALITY.

THERE IS STILL ONLY ONE WAY TO KEEP DONALD TRUMP OUT OF THE OVAL OFFICE, AT THE BALLOT BOX."

THE JUDGE WILL SENTENCE MR. TRUMP FOR THE 34 GUILTY COUNTS ON JULY 11th JUST DAYS BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION.

HE FACES A PUNISHMENT RANGING FROM PROBATION TO UP TO FOUR YEARS BEHIND BARS.

HE IS EXPECTED TO APPEAL THE VERDICT.

WE'LL HAVE FULL ANALYSIS OF THIS HISTORIC DAY ON TOMORROW'S PROGRAM.

WE NOW RETURN TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" RECORDED EARLIER TODAY.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I SAW THINGS AT AL AQSA HOSPITAL WHICH I STILL WAKE UP AT NIGHT THINKING ABOUT.

>> AN EYEWITNESS TO WAR.

I SPEAK TO DR. NICK MAYNARD, A BRITISH SURGEON JUST BACK FROM RAFAH ABOUT THE HEALTH CARE COLLAPSE IN GAZA.

>>> THEN -- >> MUSIC IS NOT DEAD IN AFGHANISTAN RIGHT NOW, EVEN THOUGH THE TALIBAN IS BACK IN CHARGE.

>> JOHN LEGEND SHINES HIS LIGHT ON THE MUSIC OF AFGHANISTAN.

WHY THE GRAMMY WINNER IS LOOKING BACK AT KABUL'S VERSION OF "AMERICAN IDOL," "AFGHAN STAR."

PLUS -- >> I'M STRUCK BY THE RESILIENCE ON THE JOB MARKET.

THE STRONGEST PART OF THE ECONOMY BY FAR.

>> FACTS OVER FEELINGS.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, PRESIDENT OF CHICAGO'S FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, GIVES AN ECONOMIC REALITY CHECK WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

SMOKE RISES OVER RAFAH IN THE FACE OF MOUNTING INTERNATIONAL CRITICISM.

ISRAEL'S OPERATIONS THERE CONTINUE.

WITH THE IDF ANNOUNCING THEY'VE TAKEN OVER THE BORDER BETWEEN EGYPT AND GAZA.

AND IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, A FIRE RIPPED THROUGH A MARKET IN RAMALLAH, FOLLOWING AN INCURSION BY ISRAELI TROOPS OVERNIGHT ACCORDING TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE KILLED EARLIER NEAR NABLUS, AND AMID REPORTS OF HAMAS GUNFIRE, ISRAEL'S FAR RIGHT FINANCE MINISTER ISSUED THIS THREAT.

IF THE TERROR CONTINUES, WE'LL TURN TOLKARUM INTO RUINS LIKE IN THE GAZA STRIP.

IN A MOMENT WE'LL GET A FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT FROM A BRITISH SURGEON JUST BACK FROM GAZA, BUT FIRST THE LATEST FROM JEREMY DIAMOND IN RAFAH.

>> Reporter: ON A HILLTOP IN WESTERN RAFAH, ISRAELI TANKS OVERLOOK ISRAEL'S BORDER WITH EGYPT, THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S LATEST PRIZE.

THREE WEEKS INTO THE RAFAH OFFENSIVE, THEY NOW CONTROL THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR, SPANNING THE LENGTH OF THAT 7 1/2 MILE LONG CORRIDOR WHICH THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS HAMAS HAS USED TO SMUGGLE WEAPONS INTO GAZA.

EGYPT DENIES THESE TUNNELS EXIST.

>> Translator: THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR SERVED AS HAMAS' OXYGEN PIPELINE THROUGH WHICH HAMAS REGULARLY SMUGGLED WEAPONS INTO THE GAZA STRIP.

SO FAR OUR FORCES HAVE LOCATED ABOUT 20 TUNNELS IN THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR AREA.

WE INVESTIGATE THESE TUNNELS AND NEUTRALIZE THEM.

>> Reporter: THIS IS THE HUMAN TOLL OF THAT MILITARY OFFENSIVE.

UNITED NATIONS SAYS MORE THAN 940,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE THE CITY IN RECENT WEEKS.

FOR MANY, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME.

"THERE IS NO SAFETY.

THE U.N.

WAREHOUSES ARE HIT, THE U.N. SCHOOLS ARE HIT.

THERE IS NO SAFETY, TASIR SAYS.

YOU MIGHT DIE AT ANY MOMENT, ANYWHERE.

MULTIPLE ISRAELI STRIKES ON CAMPS FOR DISPLACED PALESTINIANS IN RECENT DAYS HAVE MADE THAT POINT WITH DEADLY CLARITY, NONE MORE SO THAN THIS STRIKE IN NORTHWESTERN RAFAH ON SUNDAY NIGHT, WHICH KILLED AT LEAST 45 PEOPLE AND INJURED HUNDREDS MORE.

ACCORDING TO GAZA'S MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS SAID IT DID NOT EXPECT CIVILIANS TO DIE AND HAS LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION BOO THE STRIKE, WHICH KILLED TWO SENIOR HAMAS MILITANTS.

BUT AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE CAN BE SEEN ON THE ROAD OUTSIDE THOSE STRUCTURES MOMENTS BEFORE THE STRIKE.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY TARGETED THESE TWO CONTAINER-LIKE STRUCTURES, JUST STEPS AWAY FROM STRUCTURES HOUSING DISPLACED CIVILIANS, WHICH WERE ALSO DESTROYED IN THE BLAST OR THE SUBSEQUENT FIRE.

FOUR WEAPONS EXPERTS TELL CNN THE WEAPONS USED IN THE STRIKE WERE U.S.-MADE BOMBS.

THEY SAY THESE REMNANTS FOUND AT THE SITE OF THE ATTACK ARE PIECES OF A GBU-39 SMALL DIAMETER BOMB, CARRYING A RELATIVELY SMALL PAYLOAD INTENDED TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

BUT DROPPING THEM IN DENSELY POPULATED AREAS CAN STILL HAVE DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES.

>> IF THEY GO INTO RAFAH, I'M NOT SUPPLYING THE WEAPONS THAT HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY USED TO DEAL WITH RAFAH.

>> Reporter: BUT FOR NOW, THE U.S.

DOESN'T PLAN TO STOP PROVIDING THOSE WEAPONS, WITH THE WHITE HOUSE INSISTING ISRAEL HASN'T CROSSED THAT RED LINE.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A MAJOR GROUND OPERATION.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT AT THIS POINT.

>> Reporter: MAJOR OR NOT, THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS NOW DEEP IN RAFAH, WHERE PALESTINIAN RESCUERS ARE STRUGGLING TO SAFELY REACH THE WOUNDED AS THE DANGERS ARE MOUNTING FOR SO MANY.

>> JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTING FROM JERUSALEM.

NOW ON WEDNESDAY, THE PALESTINE RED CRESCENT SOCIETY SAID TWO OF ITS MEDICS WERE KILLED NEAR RAFAH WHEN THEIR AMBULANCE WAS HIT.

ISRAEL SAID IT FIRED ON A, QUOTE, SUSPICIOUS VEHICLE THAT WAS APPROACHING TROOPS, AND THE INCIDENT IS UNDER REVIEW.

BRITISH SURGEON DR. NICK MAYNARD IS JUST BACK FROM GAZA, WHERE HE SAW THE COLLAPSING HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WITH HIS OWN EYES.

HE LEFT RAFAH JUST BEFORE ISRAEL'S OFFENSIVE BEGAN, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW HERE IN THE STUDIO.

DR. MAYNARD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ASKING ME.

>> YOU LEFT.

AND I'M JUST GOING READ WHAT YOU SAID, BECAUSE YOU LEFT JUST AS THE ISRAELI INCURSION BEGAN.

YOU TOLD REUTERS THAT YOU HEARD BOMBS AND GUNFIRE ALL OVER DRIVING THROUGH RAFAH.

THE TENSION WAS PALPABLE, WITH PEOPLE EVACUATING AS RAPIDLY AS THEY COULD.

YOU SAW SOME OF THAT ATTEMPT TO EVACUATE IN JEREMY'S PACKAGE THERE.

WHAT DID YOU SEE?

AND WHAT IS THE STATUS OF PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO GET OUT OF THE WAY?

>> SO THEY ISSUED THE INITIAL EVACUATION ORDERS ABOUT TWO HOURS BEFORE WE LEFT FOR THE CROSSING.

AND WE SAW HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE RUSHING OUT OF THERE -- I WAS GOING TO SAY HOUSE.

THEY'RE NOT HOUSES.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISPLACED MANY TIMES.

THEY WERE LEAVING THEIR VERY TEMPORARY SHELTERS THERE, MAKESHIFT TENTS THERE, TARPAULIN SHELTERS, GOING IN CARS, SOME OF THEM WALKING, SOME OF THEM GOING ON A CART WITH DONKEYS AND RUSHING OUT.

IT WAS VERY DISTRESSING TO SEE THEM LEAVING SO URGENTLY.

FOR SOME OF THEM, THIS IS THE FIFTH, SIXTH, SEVENTH TIME THEY'VE DONE THAT IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS.

>> YOU WERE LEAVING AS WELL.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU?

DID YOU GET -- YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY OUT SAFELY.

BUT WAS IT DANGEROUS AS YOU WERE TRYING TO GET OUT?

>> WE DIDN'T THINK WE WERE GOING TO GET OUT.

WE WERE INITIALLY TURNED AWAY.

>> BY?

>> WELL, WE WERE ADVISED TO LEAVE.

SO THERE WAS ONGOING DISCUSSIONS BETWEEN THE MEDICAL AID TO THE PALESTINIAN GROUND STAFF AND KOGAT, THE LIAISON PARTY.

SO THEY INITIALLY DECIDED FOR SECURITY REASONS WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE HOUSE.

BUT THEN WE LEFT AGAIN LATE MORNING, GOT TO THE CROSSING AS THE BOMBINGS WERE INTENSIFYING.

SO WE WERE SURROUNDED BY BOMBS GOING OFF REALLY VIRTUALLY NONSTOP.

AND THERE WAS VERY DIFFICULT DECISIONS TO BE MADE ABOUT WHETHER WE SHOULD CARRY ON WITH OUR PLANNED DEPARTURE OR WHETHER WE SHOULD TURN AROUND, BECAUSE IT WAS GETTING TOO DANGEROUS.

BUT WE DID STAY, AND WE MANAGED TO GET OUT.

>> YOU WARNED IN MARCH ACTUALLY BEFORE THE RAFAH OPERATION STARTED, CERTAINLY BEFORE THAT IF A GROUND INVASION HAPPENED, A GROUND INCURSION OF SOME SORT, IT WOULD BE APOCALYPTIC.

AND GAZA'S HEALTH MINISTRY SAID IN THE STATEMENT, NOW, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE SUNDAY ATTACK, "THERE IS NO HOSPITAL IN RAFAH WITH ENOUGH CAPACITY TO TAKE THIS NUMBER OF KILLED AND INJURED, CAUSING CONFUSION AMONGST AMBULANCE TEAMS ON WHERE TO TRANSFER THEM."

GIVE US A LAYOUT OF WHAT HOSPITALS REMAIN, WHAT DON'T, ANYWHERE NEARBY THESE PLACES THAT ARE UNDER IDF ATTACK.

>> SO RAFAH IS A SMALL TOWN.

IT HAS A POPULATION OF 100 TO 200,000 PEOPLE NORMALLY.

IT HAS TWO HOSPITALS.

ONE GOVERNMENT HOSPITAL, WHICH NORMALLY HAS A CAPACITY OF ABOUT 60 BEDS, AND A SMALL HOSPITAL CALLED A KUWAITI HOSPITAL, WHICH HAS BEEN IN THE NEWS A LOT IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, WHICH HAS THE CAPACITY NORMALLY OF 15, 1-5 BEDS.

SO THEY HAVE VERY LIMITED BEDS THERE.

THEY'VE GOT A BIGGER HOSPITAL BETWEEN RAFAH AND KHAN YOUNIS CALLED THE EUROPEAN GAZA HOSPITAL WHICH I'VE WORKED IN A LOT OVER THE YEARS, WHICH IS SURROUND BY THE ISRAELI GROUND FORCE.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR PATIENTS TO GET THAT.

SO EFFECTIVELY, THERE ARE NO HOSPITALS FOR THESE PATIENTS TO GO TO.

THERE ARE SOME FIELD HOSPITALS BEING SET UP.

BUT THE NUMBER OF ACUTE BEDS AVAILABLE TO TAKE THESE PATIENTS IS VERY, VERY FEW.

>> AND HAVE YOU BEEN IN TOUCH WITH ANY COLLEAGUES IN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION, OR ANYBODY IN RAFAH SINCE YOU'VE LEFT, PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST FEW DAYS?

>> YEAH, I SPOKE YESTERDAY TO A DEAR FRIEND OF MINE WHO IS AN OPERATING THEATER NURSE WHO ALMOST TO THE DAY A YEAR AGO I WAS OPERATING WITH IN THE HEATERS IN EUROPEAN GAZA HOSPITAL, SHE STAYED IN RAFAH.

SHE AND HER HUSBAND ARE LIVING THERE.

THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE.

AND SHE SAID TO ME YESTERDAY SHE WOULD RATHER DIE AND SHE EXPECTS TO DIE IN HER HOME, AND SHE IS NOT GOING TO LEAVE.

I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET HOLD OF HER TODAY, AND SHE HASN'T ANSWERED ANY MESSAGE, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER.

HALF HER FAMILY HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

I'VE GOT A CLOSE FRIEND WHO IS A DOCTOR OUT THERE, AND I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO THEM REGULARLY.

BUT THE -- THE WORDS WE USED A FEW WEEKS AGO, THIS BEING APOCALYPTIC, IT ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE BEING KILLED THERE.

THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN EVACUATED HAVE BEEN FORCED TO GO TO AL NAWASI, WHICH IS AN AREA I KNOW WELL.

THERE ARE ALREADY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE.

THEY'VE HAD TO ACCOMMODATE NEARLY A MILLION EXTRA PEOPLE.

AND THERE IS NOTHING THERE.

EL NAWASI IS A THIN STRETCH OF SAND AND WASTELAND DIVIDE BADE ROAD WITH NO FACILITIES AT ALL.

SO THE IDEA THEY CAN ACCOMMODATE IN ANY SORT OF SAFE WAY ANOTHER MILLION PEOPLE IS FANCIFUL.

>> YOU'RE A DOCTOR.

YOU'RE A SURGEON, AND YOU'VE WORKED IN GAZA FOR SOME TEN YEARS YOU'VE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH, THROUGH OTHER WARS PRESUMABLY.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE YOU SAW IN JEREMY DIAMOND'S REPORT THERE, THEY SAW THE WEAPONS.

THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS SLIGHTLY LESS HUGE AND POWERFUL PERHAPS TO TRY TO MITIGATE CIVILIAN DAMAGE.

THESE ARE AMERICAN-MADE WEAPONS.

BUT FROM A DOCTOR'S POINT OF VIEW, PARTICULARLY AS HE SAID, JEREMY, IN A DENSELY POPULATED ZONE, A LIGHT BOMB OR A HEAVY BOMB IS GOING TO CREATE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CIVILIAN DESTRUCTION.

WHAT CAN YOU SAY ABOUT THE WEAPONS THAT ARE USED?

>> SO GAZA'S GOT A POPULATION OF 2.2 MILLION.

IT IS THE MOST DENSELY POPULATED PLACE IN THE WORLD.

I WAS THERE LAST MAY OPERATING ON THE CANCER SURGEON, I WAS OPERATING ON CANCER PATIENTS, PART OF THE MAP PROGRAM.

AND IT WAS THE LAST BIG BOMBARDMENT BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, BEGINNING OF MAY.

AND I WAS STUCK THERE.

THEY CLOSED THE BORDERS, AND WE HAD TO BE EVACUATED EVENTUALLY.

BUT I WITNESSED FOR FOUR DAYS THIS NONSTOP BOMBARDMENT.

AND I WANT WAS AN INCREDIBLE DEMONSTRATION OF HOW PRECISE THE BOMBING CAN BE WHEN THE ISLY DEFENSE FORCE WANT TO DO THAT.

THEY WERE TARGETING SPECIFIC ROOMS IN BUILDINGS, SPECIFIC FLOORS.

AND THERE WAS COLLATERAL DAMAGE, BUT MINIMAL COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

SO I'VE WITNESSED IT FIRSTHAND HOW PRECISE THEIR TARGETING CAN BE.

MOVE FORWARD TO POST OCTOBER 7th.

I WAS THERE OVER CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR, AND I WITNESSED, I WATCHED THE INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING OF LARGE POPULATIONS IN THE SURROUNDING CAMPS WHERE I WAS STAYING FOR TWO WEEKS.

SO I'VE WITNESSED TWO EXTREMES.

I'VE SEEN HOW PRECISE THEIR TARGETING CAN BE, AND I'VE SEEN HOW INDISCRIMINATE IT CAN BE.

THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT WHAT WE'VE SEEN SINCE OCTOBER 7th IS INDISCRIMINATE KILLING OF LARGE POPULATIONS OF CIVILIANS.

>> YOU KNOW THEY DENY THAT EVERY TIME, AND THEY SAY OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT WE ARE DOING OUR BEST TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN.

AND THEY SAY, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, IF THE HAMAS TERRORIST ORGANIZATION AS THEY SAY THEY'RE FIGHTING IS USING HUMAN SHIELDS, IS USING GAZANS TO SHIELD THEMSELVES FROM ANY KIND OF RETALIATION OR ACTION.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, I'VE NOT WITNESSED THAT.

I THINK IF -- IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE CAN CLAIM THAT KILLING 35 CIVILIANS IS A PROPORTIONATE RESPONSE TO EVENTS EARLIER.

BUT -- >> YOU MEAN 35,000.

>> 35,000 PEOPLE.

I'VE NOT WITNESSED WHAT THEY'RE DESCRIBING.

AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN, THAT MY FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES WHO I HAVE SPOKEN TO DAILY SINCE OCTOBER 7, HAVE LIVED OUT THERE WITH THEM FOR SEVERAL WEEKS IN A SENSE DO NOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT.

>> THEY WOULD SAY THAT THEY'RE THERE.

THEY LIVE IN THESE WHATEVER, UNDERGROUND OR IN BUILDINGS OR WHATEVER.

THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD SAY.

BUT IT'S INTERESTING WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT WITNESSING VERY TARGETED AND WITNESSING SOMETHING THAT IS MUCH LESS TARGETED.

I WANT TO ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY IN YOUR -- YOU KNOW, YOUR DOMAIN ABOUT THE HEALTH SYSTEM.

KAMAL ADWAN HOSPITAL.

DOZENS OF MEDICAL STAFF IS TAKEN TO AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION.

THAT WAS IN DECEMBER LAST YEAR.

THE IDF SAYS IT TAKES ALL FEASIBLE PROPORTIONS TO MITIGATE HARMFUL, ET CETERA.

NASSAR HOSPITAL, 70 HEALTH CARE WORKERS ARRESTED BY ISRAELI FORCES.

80 PATIENTS TRANSFERRED OUT.

THEY SAID THEY HAD APPREHENDED HUNDREDS OF HAMAS MILITANTS.

AL-SHIFA, WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

IT'S COMPLETELY A RUIN.

THEY SAY THEY WERE GOING AFTER HAMAS TARGETS UNDERNEATH IN TUNNELS.

DID YOU EVER COME ACROSS ANYTHING SUSPICIOUS?

DID YOU EVER ASK ANY OF YOUR -- ACTUALLY THE DIRECTORS OF THE HOSPITAL, THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE THERE WHEN YOU'RE NOT THERE, WHETHER THERE WAS ANY THREAT FROM, YOU KNOW, A MILITANT GROUP USING THEIR PREMISES?

>> I DID.

AND I CAN ONLY REALLY VOUCH FOR WHAT I HAVE WITNESSED AND WHAT CLOSED FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES HAVE SAID.

I'VE BEEN ON THESE HOSPITALS IN MANY OCCASIONS.

BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, BUT ALSO SINCE THEN.

HAVE I NEVER WITNESSED, I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF HAMAS MILITANTS IN THESE HOSPITALS.

AND MY CLOSE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES, SOME OF WHOM I'VE KNOWN FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS, I'VE ASKED THEM REPEATEDLY, AND THEY HAVE NEVER WITNESSED ANY OF THIS.

CLEARLY, I CANNOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE OF WHAT GUESS ON IN THE TUNNELS UNDERNEATH.

I'VE NEVER SEEN THEM.

BUT IF YOU TAKE SHIFA HOSPITAL AS AN EXAMPLE, WHICH I KNOW VERY WELL, I'VE BEEN TO EVERY SQUARE INCH OF THAT HOSPITAL.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY RESTRICTED ACCESS AT ALL TO ANY PARTS OF THE HOSPITAL.

SO I'VE SEEN NO EVIDENCE OF WHAT THEY DESCRIBE.

>> MEANTIME, WHAT INJURIES YOU SEEING?

AS YOU SAY, YOU'VE BEEN THERE MANY, MANY TIMES.

YOU'RE A CANCER SURGEON.

YOU'RE NOT NECESSARILY, YOUR PROFESSION IS NOT TO DO TRAUMATIC SURGERIES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING SINCE YOU'VE BEEN THERE?

AND WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN?

>> WHEN I WAS THERE FOR TWO WEEKS OVER CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR, WE SAW A HUGE AMOUNT OF TRAUMA.

AND THAT WAS REALLY MAJOR BLAST INJURIES FROM BOMBS, AFFECTING THE ABDOMEN AND THE CHEST WITH SEVERE SHRAPNEL INJURIES.

SO WE SPENT THE WHOLE TIME OPERATING ON MAJOR CHEST INJURIES, MAJOR ABDOMINAL INJURIES WITH THE LOCAL SURGEONS.

MY MOST RECENT TRIP, WHICH I RETURNED JUST THREE WEEKS AGO, WE SAW A DIFFERENT PATTERN OF ILLNESSES.

WE DID SEE SOME BLAST INJURIES.

BUT THE AMOUNT OF BOMBINGS WERE MUCH LESS.

BUT WHAT WE DID SEE, AND WHAT KEPT US REALLY BUSY IN THE OPERATING THEATER WERE THE PROBLEMS WITH MALNUTRITION.

AND WE HIGHLIGHTED THIS WHEN WE WERE THERE OVER CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR, AND IT'S GOT MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

WE KNOW THE IBC HAS DESIGNATED NORTHERN GAZA AS A FAMINE AREA.

THE MALNUTRITION IN MIDDLE GAZA AND SOUTHERN GAZA IS NOW EXTREME.

AND WE SAW THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT.

AND IT'S NOT JUST THAT THEY'RE LOSING WEIGHT, BUT THEY'VE BECOME IMMUNOSUPPRESSED IF THEY'RE MALNOURISHED, AND THEY DON'T HEAL.

WE SAW MANY PATIENTS WHO HAD HAD SURGERY FOR WAR INJURIES, FOR BLAST INJURIES, FOR GUNSHOT WOUNDS WHOSE WOUNDS WERE FALLING TO PIECES, AND THEIR INTERNAL ORGAN REPAIRS, THE BOWEL REPAIRS, THE LIVER REPAIRS, THE PANCREAS REPAIRS, THEY WERE ALL DISINTEGRATING, FALLING TO PIECES.

A AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT ARE DEVASTATING.

AND I HAD PATIENTS.

I'LL TALK ABOUT TWO PATIENTS PARTICULAR.

16-YEAR-OLD TARLA AND 18-YEAR-OLD LLAMA, BOTH YOUNG LADIES, BOTH OF WHOM HAD BLAST INJURIES FROM BOMBS, BOTH OF WHOM HAD MAJOR SURGERY TO REPAIR.

BOTH OF WHOM WERE SEVERELY MALNOURISHED BEFORE THEY CAME, AND BOTH OF WHOM DIED UNDER OUR CARE AS A DIRECT RESULT OF MALNUTRITION.

SO THE EFFECTS OF MALNUTRITION NOW ARE GOING TO CAUSE FAR, FAR MORE EXCESS DEATHS THAN WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR.

>> AND HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH THIS?

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT?

>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, I SAY IT TO MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY, THE PART OF MY THERAPY IS ACTUALLY COMING TO TALK ABOUT IT TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT BEINGED ADEQUATELY.

WE NEED TO TELL EVERYONE WHAT IS GOING ON, NEED TO MAKE SURE OUR GOVERNMENTS UNDERSTAND THE APPALLING CONSEQUENCES OF THE ONGOING MILITARY ASSAULTS IN GAZA.

>> DR. NICK MAYNARD, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ASKING ME.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO ANOTHER TRAGIC WAR RAVAGED PLACE, AND THAT IS AFGHANISTAN.

THE TALIBAN CONTROLS EVERYTHING AGAIN SINCE THE U.S.

PULLED OUT THREE YEARS AGO, EVEN SNUFFING OUT THE JOYS OF MUSIC, A FAR CRY FROM THE EARLY 2000s WHEN THE TALIBAN WAS DRIVEN OUT AND A TV SHOW GRIPPED, "AFGHAN STAR," THE EQUIVALENT OF "AMERICAN IDOL."

SUPERSTAR JOHN LEGEND IS MAKING IT THE FOCUS OF HIS NEW PODCAST.

AND I SAW IT CLOSE UP MYSELF IN 2009.

♪♪♪ EIGHT YEARS AGO, WHEN THE TALIBAN RULED AFGHANISTAN, WHAT THIS YOUNG WOMAN IS DOING MIGHT HAVE COST HER LIFE.

♪♪♪ BUT NOW SHE'S ONE OF THE TOP CONTENDERS ON THE COUNTRY'S MOST POPULAR TV SHOW.

♪♪♪ >> ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY SING?

YOU'RE A WOMAN, AND YOU CAN SING POP ROCK HERE IN AFGHANISTAN?

>> Translator: I'M HAPPY THINGS HAVE CHANGED FOR THE BETTER, AND THAT A WOMAN LIKE ME CAN FINALLY PERFORM.

♪♪♪ >> "AFGHAN STAR" IS THIS COUNTRY'S VERSION OF "AMERICAN IDOL."

IT'S A MAD FUSION OF TRADITIONAL AFGHAN CULTURE AND WESTERN-STYLE POP.

BACKSTAGE, I WATCHED THE PROCESSION OF TALENT -- DRUMMERS, DANCERS, ACROBATS, CHILD JUGGLERS.

THE AUDIENCE AND THE COUNTRY LOVED IT.

THE SHOW'S PRODUCERS SAY 80% OF TV VIEWERS TUNED IN AND CAST THEIR VOTES BY MOBILE PHONE.

>> IT SEEMS A LIFETIME AGO.

THERE WAS SO MUCH HOPE THEN, AND THINGS LIKE "AFGHAN STAR" POINTED PEOPLE TO BELIEVE AND HOPE THAT THINGS WOULD EVENTUALLY CHANGE IN AFGHANISTAN.

NO LONGER, AS I SAID.

SINCE 2021 WHEN THE UNITED STATES PULLED OUT AND THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER AGAIN.

NOW JOHN LEGEND IS NO STRANGER TO THE TV TALENT SHOW FORMAT.

HE HAS BEEN A COACH ON THE POPULAR AMERICAN PROGRAM "THE VOICE," AND HE IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S FEW EGOT WINNERS, HAVING BROUGHT HOME AN EMMY, A GRAMMY, AN OSCAR, AND A TONY AWARD.

HE TELLS ME WHY HE WAS DRAWN TO THIS PROJECT.

JOHN LEGEND, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> LISTEN, WE ARE REALLY PLEASED TO BE DOING THIS WITH YOU, BECAUSE IT'S AMAZING THAT YOU HAVE DECIDED TO TAKE ON IN A NEW AUDIO SERIES SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHY.

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT "AFGHAN STAR" THAT MOVED YOU TO EXPLAIN IT AND REKINDLE IT IN YOUR PODCAST?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S JUST A BEAUTIFUL STORY OF THE POWER OF MUSIC, THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE'S RESILIENCE, AND REALLY, A REMARKABLE SHOW THAT WAS PRETTY REVOLUTIONARY FOR ITS TIME.

PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTANED A THAT TIME, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW, WERE COMING OUT OF YEARS OF THE TALIBAN BEING IN CHARGE.

AND DURING THE TALIBAN'S REIGN, PRIOR TO THE U.S. AND THE ALLIES' INVASION, MUSIC WAS BANNED.

SO THERE WERE INSTRUMENTS BEING BURNED ON THE STREETS, RECORDS WERE CONTRABAND, CDs WERE CONTRABAND, CASSETTE TAPES WERE CONTRABAND.

ANY MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS WERE CONTRABAND.

SO ALL OF THAT STUFF, IF YOU GOT CAUGHT WITH THEM, WOULD GET DESTROYED, BURNED, AND YOU MAY GET IN TROUBLE DURING THE RULE OF THE TALIBAN PRIOR TO THE ALLY INVASION.

AND SO THERE WAS A LOT OF PENT-UP DEMAND AND DESIRE IS FOR PEOPLE TO ENGAGE WITH MUSIC AGAIN.

AND WHEN THEY WERE ABLE TO IN AFGHANISTAN, "AFGHAN STAR" EVENTUALLY WAS DEVELOPED AS A SHOW VERY SIMILAR TO "AMERICAN IDOL" OR "THE VOICE," WHICH I'M A COACH ON, AND PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO VOTE ON THEIR FAVORITE SINGER.

THEY WERE SO ENGAGED.

IT REALLY CAPTURED THE ATTENTION OF THE NATION.

AND IT WAS QUITE A REMARKABLE SHOW.

AND WE THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT STORY TO TALK ABOUT IT.

WHAT HAPPENED DURING THAT TIME.

AND I FIND THE STORY INSPIRING, BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, IT REALLY SHOWS YOU THE POWER OF MUSIC AND THE POWER OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK NOW OF COURSE WITH THE TALIBAN BACK, SINCE THE U.S.

PULLED OUT IN '21, OF COURSE IT'S GONE.

THEY DON'T ALLOW THAT ANYMORE.

WOMEN AREN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO WORK.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND ON "AFGHAN STAR," WHEN I WAS THERE, AND YOU MENTIONED IT AS WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE MAIN JUDGES WAS A WOMAN.

THERE WAS A LOT OF WOMEN BEING ABLE TO DO THINGS IN PUBLIC THAT THEY HADN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO.

MUSIC?

BECAUSE IT'S QUITE A MUSICAL, LYRICAL COUNTRY.

THEY HAVE THEIR OWN INSTRUMENTS AND THINGS.

JUST IN GENERAL, DID AFGHAN MUSIC GRIP YOU OR GRAB YOU IN ANY WAY?

>> WELL, I LEARNED MORE ABOUT AFGHAN MUSIC DURING THE MAKING OF THIS PODCAST.

I WAS ABLE TO LISTEN TO SOME OF THE ICONIC ARTISTS IN AFGHAN MUSICAL HISTORY.

AND SOME OF THOSE ARTISTS WERE THE ARTISTS THAT THE "AFGHAN STAR" ARTISTS WERE COVERING.

ARIANNA WAS ONE OF THE JUDGES WHO WAS ON "AFGHAN STAR."

AND SHE WAS A POP STAR HERSELF.

AND IT WAS QUITE REVOLUTIONARY THAT SHE WAS A JUDGE BECAUSE SHE WAS THE ONLY WOMAN JUDGE.

AND THEN IT TOOK A WHILE FOR WOMEN TO ACTUALLY WIN "AFGHAN STAR," BUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE EVEN COMPETING ON THE SHOW, THAT THEY WERE SINGING, THAT THEY WERE DANCING, THAT THEY MAY EVEN SHOW A LITTLE BIT OF THEIR HAIR ON THE SHOW, ALL OF THAT WAS QUITE REVOLUTIONARY FOR WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN AT THE TIME.

>> AND YOUR PODCAST DOES TALK A LOT ABOUT YOUR SHOW DELVES INTO THE CREATOR OF "AFGHAN STAR."

HIS NAME IS DAOUD SEDIQI.

AND HE HAS A REMARKABLE STORY.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIM.

>> WELL, HE WAS THE CREATOR AND THE HOST OF THE SHOW.

AND THEN ASSAD MUOSAINI WAS THE FOUNDER OF TOLO TV AND THE FOUNDER OF REALLY GROUNDBREAKING ENTERTAINMENT FOR AFGHANISTAN DURING THIS TIME OF INCREASED FREEDOM.

HE WAS THERE TO PROVIDE THE ENTERTAINMENT AND THE CONNECTION TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT HAD TO BE GOTTEN RID OF ONCE THE TALIBAN CAME BACK INTO POWER.

WHAT I FIND IS INTERESTING, AND I'VE GOTTEN TO SPEAK WITH ASSAD SINCE WE MADE THE PODCAST IS THAT EVEN THOUGH THE TALIBAN'S BACK IN CHARGE, IT'S HARD TO PUT THE GENIE BACK IN THE BOTTLE ONCE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO MUSIC AND ACCESS TO ALL OF THIS ENTERTAINMENT.

THEY FIND A WAY TO GET TO IT, ESPECIALLY WITH THE INTERNET AND MOBILE DEVICES AND ALL THESE OTHER THINGS.

MUSIC IS NOT DEAD IN AFGHANISTAN RIGHT NOW, EVEN THOUGH THE TALIBAN IS BACK IN CHARGE.

I THINK THE SPIRIT THAT WAS AWAKENED AND REVIVED IN AFGHANISTAN BY SHOWS LIKE "AFGHAN STAR" AND OTHER CONNECTIONS WITH MUSIC AND ENTERTAINMENT, IT'S HARD TO PUT THAT BACK IN THE BOTTLE.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S GREAT THAT YOU JUST BRING THAT UP, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP FROM ONE OF THE EPISODES WHEN DAOUD SEDIQI IS TALKING EXACTLY ABOUT THAT, LISTENING TO MUSIC EVEN UNDER THE FIRST TALIBAN REIGN.

>> WE HAVE THIS AREA IN KABUL CALLED -- THEY'RE APARTMENT BUILDINGS.

SIX FLOORS, SEVEN FLOOR, EIGHT FLOOR.

>> A LOT OF THESE APARTMENTS ARE EMPTY SINCE RESIDENTS FLED THE COUNTRY TO ESCAPE THE MUJAHEDEEN.

SO IT'S A GOOD SPOT FOR A CLUBHOUSE.

PLUS, THE APARTMENTS ARE SO HIGH UP, THAT YOU CAN BLAST MUSIC WITHOUT FEAR OF GETTING CAUGHT.

>> I LISTEN TO LIVE MUSIC A LOT.

I PARTIED A LOT.

WE WENT TO THIS BUILDING, AND WE HAVE LIVE MUSIC.

WE HAVE PREPARING FOOD FOR US.

THAT WAS PARTY.

I TELL YOU THAT I LISTEN TO MORE LIVE MUSIC DURING THE TALIBAN THAN MY ENTIRE LIFE, YOU WILL LAUGH.

>> I MEAN, IT IS FUNNY, AND I CAN SEE YOU LAUGHING.

THE IDEA THAT THEY LISTEN THE MORE MUSIC IN SORT OF UNDERGROUND CELLS SO TO SPEAK IS QUITE INDICATIVE OF THE RESISTANCE THAT AFGHANS HAVE.

>> YEAH, AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I REALLY THINK IT SHOWS THE POWER OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF MUSIC.

AND PEOPLE WILL FIND A WAY TO CONNECT TO MUSIC, NO MATTER WHAT THE REGIME MIGHT SAY.

>> YOU HAVE, AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU'RE A COACH ON "THE VOICE."

YOU'VE WORKED ALONGSIDE PEOPLE LIKE ARIANA GRANDE, CHRISTINA AGUILERA, REBA McENTIRE, KELLY CLARKSON, GWEN STEFANI, I MEAN SO MANY, MANY PEOPLE.

TRANSLATE THAT, OR TRANSPOSE WHAT YOU LEARNED THERE OR WHAT YOU KNOW THERE AND WHAT THAT KIND OF SHOW GIVES TO PEOPLE AND CAN DO FOR PEOPLE AND WAS PROBABLY DOING THE SAME IN AFGHANISTAN WHILE IT WAS ALLOWED.

>> WELL, I THINK PEOPLE LOVE THE IDEA THAT THESE ARTISTS WHO HAVE A DREAM OF BEING HEARD AND BEING SEEN, ARTISTS WHO ARE UNKNOWN AND BECOME KNOWN TO THE PUBLIC, THAT THEY CAN COME ON THESE KINDS OF SHOWS, ON OUR SHOW "THE VOICE" OR ON A SHOW LIKE "AFGHAN STAR" OR LIKE "AMERICAN IDOL," THEY CAN COME ON "THE VOICE" BECAUSE OF THEIR TALENT AND BE HEARD AND SEEN AND GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO AMPLIFY THEIR DREAMS AND THEIR DESIRES TO MAKE MUSIC.

AND IT'S A POWERFUL CONCEPT.

PEOPLE LOVE THAT CONCEPT.

AND THAT'S WHY THESE KINDS OF SHOWS DO SO WELL ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND WHAT MADE IT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING IN AFGHANISTAN WAS THERE WERE FOLKS IN AFGHANISTAN, MOST OF THEM DIDN'T GROW UP VOTING FOR ANYTHING.

SO THE IDEA OF THEM BEING ABLE TO VOTE FOR THEIR FAVORITE SINGER ON THIS SHOW WAS QUITE INVIGORATING FOR THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN.

AND IT REALLY CAPTURED THE ATTENTION OF THE WHOLE NATION.

YOU KNOW, AT A TIME WHEN THERE WAS SO MUCH DIVISION, TRIBAL CONFLICT AND, YOU KNOW, CONFLICT BETWEEN DIFFERENT REGIONS AND ETHNICITIES.

BUT "AFGHAN STAR" BROUGHT EVERYONE TOGETHER.

AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH FUN AS WE HAVE ON "THE VOICE," AS MUCH INSPIRATION WE GET FROM THE ARTISTS ON "THE VOICE," THE STAKES WERE MUCH HIGHER IN "AFGHAN STAR" BECAUSE NOT ONLY WERE THESE PERFORMANCES GROUNDBREAKING AND THE FACT THAT WOMEN WERE INVOLVED GROUNDBREAKING, BUT, YOU KNOW, AT A CERTAIN POINT, IT STARTED TO BECOME RISKY FOR THE SHOW TO EVEN HAPPEN BECAUSE THE TALIBAN WAS STARTING TO REGAIN SOME POWER, PARTICULARLY OUTSIDE OF THE CITIES.

AND SO THERE WAS SOME RISK INVOLVED IN EVEN PUTTING ON THE SHOW, AS LONG AS THEY DID.

AND SO THE STAKES WERE INCREDIBLY HIGH.

AND JUST THE FACT THAT THIS SHOW WAS MADE FOR THIS MANY YEARS WAS QUITE REMARKABLE.

>> JOHN LEGEND, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALSO KNOWN VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SOCIAL ACTIVISM, THROUGH YOUR MUSIC, IN MANY, MANY AREAS.

WE'RE GOING TALK ABOUT THEM.

IF AFGHANISTAN IS NOW EMBLEMATIC OF ANYTHING, IT IS OF THE ABSOLUTE ABUSE AND RESTRICTIONS THEY PUT ON WOMEN.

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT LOOKING INSIDE FOR A LITTLE BIT BACK IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT NOW IN YOUR INDUSTRY TRYING TO LOOK INWARDS TO HOW WOMEN ARE TREATED.

AND I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE LATEST ABOUT SEAN "DIDDY" COMBS.

YOU WERE ON HIS LAST ALBUM.

ARE YOU ALSO FEELING THAT THE IDEA OF THE ABUSE OF WOMEN, DOMESTIC PARTNER ABUSE, IT NEEDS TO BE REALLY HANDLED ONCE AND FOR ALL AND NOT SWEPT UNDER THE CARPET AS IT HAS BEEN FOR SO LONG, LET'S JUST SAY IN YOUR INDUSTRY.

>> OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS HORRIFIED BY THE ALLEGATIONS THAT I HEARD ABOUT MR. COMBS, AND OF COURSE HORRIFIED BY THE VIDEO EVIDENCE THAT WAS RELEASED AFTER THAT.

BUT I WAS HORRIFIED BY THE DESCRIPTIONS THAT I READ BEFORE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE CAME OUT.

AND ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT TO LIGHT WHEN IT HAPPENS.

AND MY DEFAULT STANCE IS TO BELIEVE WOMEN WHEN THEY MAKE THESE ACCUSATIONS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO WHATEVER WE CAN TO SUPPORT WOMEN WHO ARE MAKING THESE ALLEGATIONS AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE HEARD, AND THAT ANY KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND REPARATIONS CAN BE MADE TO MAKE THESE WOMEN WHOLE AGAIN.

IT'S SHAMEFUL WHAT MR. COMBS HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF.

AND, YOU KNOW, I ONLY WANT THE BEST FOR CASIE, BUT ALSO FOR ALL THE OTHER VICTIMS THAT HAVE ALLEGED THAT HE HAS ABUSED THEM.

IT'S REALLY TOUGH TO SEE THOSE DESCRIPTIONS AND TO SEE THOSE VIDEOS.

IT'S QUITE A SHAME.

AND I REALLY JUST WANT ACCOUNTABILITY, AND HOPEFULLY SOME HEALING FOR ALL OF HIS VICTIMS.

>> YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, YOU ARE VERY VOCAL ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS, ABOUT PRISON REFORM IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU WROTE THE SONG "GLORY" FOR SUMMER, THE SONG ABOUT MARTIN LUTHER KING, THE MARCH FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.

YOU'RE AN EGOT.

YOU WON AN OSCAR FOR THAT.

AND YOU SAID IN YOUR ACCEPTANCE SPEECH, "THE STRUGGLE FOR JUSTICE IS RIGHT NOW."

NEARLY A DECADE LATER, WITH SUCH CONTENTIOUS ELECTION ON THE HORIZON, WITH IN MANY WAYS STEP BACKWARDS FOR JUSTICE, FOR VOTING RIGHTS, FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE STRUGGLE?

>> WELL, I -- WHEN I STOOD ON THE STAGE ACCEPTING THE ACADEMY AWARD AND TALKING ABOUT MASS INCARCERATION AND THE STRUGGLE FOR JUSTICE, WE WERE JUST IN THE BEGINNING OF THINKING ABOUT THE KIND OF WORK WE WANTED TO DO AND ORGANIZE AROUND ENDING MASS INCARCERATION.

AND WE FOUNDED FREE AMERICA TEN YEARS AGO.

AND I'M REALLY PROUD OF THE WORK WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO.

WE'VE WORKED WITH ORGANIZERS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY, WITH ACTIVISTS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND WE'VE REDUCED SIGNIFICANTLY THROUGH ALL OF THESE EFFORTS THE LEVEL OF INCARCERATION IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE'VE HELPED GET SOME MORE PROGRESSIVE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ELECTED, AND WE'VE CHANGED A LOT OF LAWS THAT AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

INCLUDING GETTING VOTING RIGHTS RESTORED FOR A LOT OF FOLKS AND MAKING SURE THAT THE PUNISHMENTS AND SENTENCES WERE MORE JUST AND MORE FITTING FOR THE CRIMES THAT PEOPLE WERE COMMITTING.

AND SO A LOT OF THAT WORK HAS BEEN KIND OF IN THE TRENCHES, WORKING WITH ACTIVISTS, WORKING WITH ORGANIZERS, WORKING WITH STATE LEGISLATORS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

BUT IT'S REALLY PAID OFF IN ACTUALLY AFFECTING A LOT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES AND GETTING MORE FREEDOM FOR MORE PEOPLE.

SO I'M PLEASED TO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THAT.

AND I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON THOSE ISSUES.

>> AND I WANT TO TAKE YOU ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BEGINNING FOR OUR FINAL QUESTION.

YOUR VERY FIRST MUSIC CREDIT WAS ON THE MISEDUCATION OF LAURYN HILL.

AND IT'S BACK IN THE NEWS.

>> YES.

>> YES!

AND IT'S BACK IN THE NEWS.

I JUST WANTED TO KNOW HOW DID THAT ALL COME ABOUT?

HOW DID YOU GET TO WORK ON THAT, AND WHAT ARE YOUR REFLECTIONS NOW ALL THESE YEARS LATER?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS A STUDENT.

I WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA AT THE TIME.

AND ON THE WEEKENDS, I WOULD DRIVE UP TO A PLACE CALLED SCRANTON, PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH IS WHERE THE PRESIDENT IS FROM, ACTUALLY.

AND SO I WOULD DRIVE UP THERE, AND I WOULD PLAY AT A CHURCH ON THE WEEKEND.

AND ONE OF MY CHOIR MEMBERS HAD GONE TO HIGH SCHOOL WITH LAURYN HILL.

AND SHE WAS LIKE YOU GOT TO MEET LAURYN.

SHE IS WORKING ON HER SOLO ALBUM.

SO I WOULD BE DRIVING BACK AND FORTH TO SCRANTON FROM PHILADELPHIA.

BUT THIS WEEKEND I DROVE OVER WITH HER TO NEW JERSEY TO SEE LAURYN HILL WORKING ON THIS ICONIC GROUNDBREAKING ALBUM, THE MISEDUCATION OF LAURYN HILL.

AND I GOT TO SIT IN ON A SESSION WHERE THEY WERE WORKING ON A SONG CALLED "EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING."

AND EVENTUALLY, AFTER THEY HAD BEEN WRITING FOR A WHILE, THEY WERE TAKING A BREAK, AND I GOT TO SIT DOWN AT THE PIANO AND PLAY AND SING A COUPLE OF SONGS FOR LAURYN AND THE REST OF THE FOLKS WHO WERE GATHERED THERE, AND SHE INVITED ME TO PLAY PIANO TRACK THEY WERE WORKING AT THE TIME, EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING.

I GOT TO BE PART OF THIS GROUNDBREAKING, INFLUENTIAL ICONIC ALBUM WHICH HAS NOW BEEN NAMED THE GREATEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I'M HAPPY THAT THAT WAS MY FIRST CHANCE TO BE A PART OF ANY ALBUM WAS BEING ON THAT ALBUM.

THAT'S PRETTY COOL.

♪ LET ME TELL YOU THAT EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING ♪ ♪ EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING ♪ ♪ EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING ♪ ♪ AFTER WINTER MUST COME SPRING ♪ ♪ EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING ♪ >> JOHN LEGEND, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND YOUR NEW PODCAST SERIES ABOUT "AFGHAN STAR," THANKS A LOT FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GREAT TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

>> LOTS GOING ON THERE.

>>> NOW, AS AMERICANS PREPARE FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN NOVEMBER, THE ECONOMY IS THE BIGGEST DRIVER FOR VOTERS.

BUT THERE STILL APPEARS TO BE A DISCONNECT BETWEEN HOW PEOPLE FEEL AND THE ACTUAL FACTS.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE IS PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF CHICAGO.

IT'S PART OF THE UNITED STATES CENTRAL BANK, AND IT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR MANAGING MONEY POLICY AND REGULATING THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

FROM THE LABOR MARKET TO THE HOUSING MARKET, HE UPDATES WALTER ISAACSON ON THE ACTUAL STATE OF AMERICA'S FINANCES.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> YOU KNOW, EVER SINCE 1977, THE FEDERAL RESERVE HAS HAD A DUAL MANDATE, IT'S CALLED, OF KEEPING INFLATION LOW, BUT KEEPING EMPLOYMENT HIGH.

IT'S SOMETIMES SEEN AS A TRADE-OFF.

TO WHAT EXTENT, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT TRADE-OFF PLAYING OUT OVER THE REST OF THIS YEAR WHEN IT COMES TO FIGURING OUT SHOULD INTEREST RATES COME DOWN?

>> YEAH, LOOK, THAT'S THE HARDEST THING, AND THAT'S THE RUB.

SOMETIMES IT IS A TRADE-OFF.

BUT OTHER TIMES, LIKE LAST YEAR IN 2023, IT WASN'T A TRADE-OFF AT ALL.

INFLATION -- THE INFLATION RATE FELL ALMOST AS MUCH AS IT'S EVER FALLEN, AND FOR REALLY THE FIRST TIME IN MODERN MEMORY, THERE WAS NO BIG RECESSION WHEN INFLATION WAS FALLING THAT MUCH.

I THINK WHAT EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO WRAP THEIR HEAD AROUND NOW IS WE'RE FINISHING OUT THIS YEAR AND GOING INTO NEXT YEAR IS THE BENEFICIAL THINGS THAT WE EXPERIENCED, THE HEALING OF THE SUPPLY CHAIN, THE RETURN OF LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION AND WORKERS GOING BACK IN TO THEIR JOBS.

IS THAT GOING TO CONTINUE OR ARE WE BACK TO THE TRADITIONAL TRADE-OFF BETWEEN EMPLOYMENT AND INFLATION.

I, FOR ME, I STILL THINK THERE IS SOME BENEFIT THAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPE.

IF ONLY BECAUSE THOSE -- THOSE IMPROVEMENTS TAKE SOME TIME TO WORK THEIR WAY THROUGH THE ECONOMY.

BUT THAT'S THE SORT OF THE CENTRAL QUESTION AS WE THINK ABOUT THE MACRO ECONOMY.

>> THE FED HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONSIDERED INDEPENDENT, NONPARTISAN, AND YET IN AN ELECTION YEAR, IF THE FED, FOR EXAMPLE, LOWERED INTEREST RATES RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION, THEN THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE PEOPLE ACCUSING IT OF PLAYING POLITICS FOR BIDEN, OR THE OTHER WAY.

TO WHAT EXTENT CAN YOU ASSURE PEOPLE THAT -- I MEAN, INSTITUTIONS LIKE EVEN THE SUPREME COURT HAVE BECOME PARTISAN.

TO WHAT EXTENT CAN YOU ASSURE PEOPLE THAT THE FED IS NOT PARTISAN IN MAKING SUCH A DECISION?

>> YEAH, LOOK, THE FED IS NOT IN THE ELECTIONS BUSINESS, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO JUST REITERATE THAT COMMITMENT, THAT THE THING THAT DETERMINES WHAT THE FED CHOOSES TO DO AND WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF THE FEDERAL OPEN MARKET COMMITTEE VOTE TO DO ARE THESE DUAL MANDATE GOALS THAT COME FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE ACT OF STABILIZE THE PRICES AND MAXIMIZE EMPLOYMENT.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE TRANSCRIPTS OR THE MINUTES FROM THE MEETINGS, THEY ARE RECORDED.

ELECTIONS ARE NOT THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION.

WHAT THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION AND DECISION MAKING IS THE ECONOMY.

AND WE JUST HAVE TO REITERATE THAT AT EVERY JUNCTURE.

AND YOU SAW CHAIR POWELL GIVE PUBLIC INTERVIEWS WHERE HE SAID THAT.

AND WE'VE BEEN SAYING THAT SUFFICIENTLY THAT NOW AS WE GET UP TO THE ELECTION, OUR DATA DPS, AND THAT WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT THE OPINIONS TO MAKE THE ECONOMIC DECISIONS.

THAT'S BY FAR THE PARAMOUNT THING ON OUR MINDS.

>> "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" A FEW WEEKS AGO REPORTED ON DONALD TRUMP'S INNER CIRCLE SAYING THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE FED, THAT HE WANTS TO MAKE IT LESS INDEPENDENT.

HE WANTS TO HAVE PRESIDENTIAL CONTROL OVER IT.

IS THERE A GENERAL CONSENSUS OF PEOPLE IN THE FED AND THE ECONOMISTS THAT THAT'S A BAD THING?

AND WILL PEOPLE PUSH BACK ON THAT?

>> I READ THAT ARTICLE.

I DON'T HAVE ANY INSIGHT.

LIKE I SAY, I'M OUT OF THE ELECTIONS BUSINESS.

THEY LOOKED LIKE THERE WAS PUSHBACK IMMEDIATELY, EVEN WITHIN THE ARTICLE.

ALL I KNOW, AS I SAY IS THAT, A, THE FED, MY OBSERVATION OF HOW THE FED OPERATORS IS THEY TAKE THE DUAL MANDATE EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY.

AND THE PEOPLE THAT I KNOW ON THE FEDERAL OPEN MARKET COMMITTEE, IT'S NOT -- ELECTIONS ARE NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE FOMC DECISIONS.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE ECONOMY.

AND LOOKING AT UNEMPLOYMENT AND INFLATION AND TRYING TO FULFILL WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES US TO DO.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE ECONOMIC RESEARCH, AS I SAY, IT'S QUITE CLEAR ACROSS COUNTRIES AND ACROSS TIME EVEN IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WHERE ADMINISTRATIONS PUT THEIR THUMB ON THE SCALE AND TRY TO ORDER AROUND THE MONETARY POLICY DECISIONS, THE ECONOMIC OUTCOMES ARE WORSE.

THAT'S HOW THE FED AND THE OTHER CENTRAL BANKS AROUND THE WORLD MOVE TO THIS INDEPENDENCE POSITION.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THE PRESIDENT APPOINTS AND THE SENATE CONFIRMS MEMBERS TO THE BOARD OF GOVERNS, THE CHAIR AND THE OTHER GOVERNORS SO THAT THERE IS OVERSIGHT, BUT IT JUST -- IT'S A BAD IDEA FOR ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE IF A SITTING ADMINISTRATION IS IN THE BUSINESS OF THE FED TELLING THEM HOW THEY WANT THE MONETARY POLICY TO BE CONDUCTED.

IT'S JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA.

AND YOU CAN LOOK IN EPISODES OF U.S. HISTORY WHERE THAT HAPPENS, IT'S PROBLEMATIC.

IT LEADS TO HIGHER INFLATION AND MORE PERSISTENT INFLATION, IF YOU DO THAT.

YOU TEND NOT TO PUT IN SOME THINGS, INCLUDING FOOD AND ENERGY PRICES, AND YET MOST OF US, WHEN WE LOOK AT PRICES, EGGS AND A GALLON OF GAS AT THE STATION, WHY DO YOU ALL DO THAT?

>> YEAH, LOOK, THAT DRIVES MY MOM CRAZY.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO ENERGY AND FOOD PRICES?

THE REASON WHY WE LOOK AT THE SO-CALLED CORE INFLATION IS BECAUSE ENERGY AND FOOD IN PARTICULAR ARE EXTREMELY NOISY AND VARIABLE.

SO THEY GO UP, THEY GO WAY DOWN, AND THE HISTORY SUGGESTS THEY DON'T GIVE AS FULSOME A PICTURE OF WHAT'S THE UNDERLYING CORE INFLATION RATE IN THE ECONOMY.

SO THAT'S WHY WE KIND OF EXCLUDE THOSE.

AND TO GET EVEN MORE INTO THE WEEDS, PEOPLE ARE MOST FAMILIAR WITH THE CONSUMER PRICE INDEX AS A MEASURE OF INFLATION.

BUT ACTUALLY, WE USE A DIFFERENT MEASURE, THE PERSONAL CONSUMPTION EXPENDITURE MEASURE.

IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT MEASURE OF INFLATION THAT IS A LITTLE BIT BETTER AND MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ECONOMY.

BUT THAT'S WHY WE DO THAT.

WE WANT THE THING THAT IS THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT'S THE UNDERLYING TREND.

AND THAT'S WHY WE DON'T THINK ABOUT THE ENERGY AND THE FOOD IN THE SHORT-RUN.

>> THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS ABOUT WHAT, 3.9% NOW?

AND THAT SEEMS PRETTY GOOD.

BUFF WE'RE IN REALLY WEIRD TIMES.

AND IT WOULD IT SEEMS TO ME JUST FROM THE SIDELINES THAT THINGS ARE DIFFICULT TO MEASURE.

PEOPLE HAVEN'T REALLY RETURNED TO WORK, OR PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING REMOTELY OR HAVE JOBS IN THE GIG ECONOMY.

IS THERE SOME FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES IN HOW EMPLOYMENT IS HAPPENING?

AND HOW DO YOU FACTOR THAT IN WHEN YOU'RE IN THE FED?

>> YES, THERE HAVE BEEN FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES.

PARTLY OVER TIME, LONGER TRANSDEMOGRAPHIC, TRANSTHE AGING OF THE WORKFORCE, LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION.

AND THEN THE SHORT-RUN, COVID, THINGS WENT CRAZY.

WE'D NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

NOW WE'VE REBOUNDED TO LOOK SOMETHING MORE LIKE NORMAL, BUT WE STILL ARE GRAPPLING WITH THESE ISSUES OF WORKING FROM HOME AND HYBRID WORK.

AND AS YOU RAISE THE GIG ECONOMY.

I'M STRUCK BY THE RESILIENCE ON THE JOB MARKET.

THE STRONGEST PART OF THE ECONOMY BY FAR IS THE STRENGTH OF THE JOB MARKET.

BEYOND WHAT WE EVEN WOULD HAVE PREDICTED, BEFORE THERE WAS EVER COVID, THEY WERE MAKING PROJECTIONS OF WHAT WOULD BE LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION IN 2024.

AND WE'RE ABOVE WHAT THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD BE HERE BEFORE COVID EVER CAME.

SO THAT'S THE STRONGEST PART.

AND THE WEAKEST PART, EVERYONE KNOWS IS THAT THE PRICE LEVEL IS HIGHER, AND INFLATION GOT WELL UP ABOVE WHAT WE WERE COMFORTABLE WITH.

AND SO WE'RE JUST STILL TRYING TO GRAPPLE WITH THESE ISSUES.

IT'S NOT JUST IN THE LABOR MARKET WHERE SOME WEIRD THINGS HAPPENED.

IT'S ALSO IN DIFFERENT SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY.

WE HAD A -- WE HAD A RECESSION THAT WAS DRIVEN BY A BUNCH OF INDUSTRIES THAT WE NORMALLY THINK OF AS BEING RECESSION PROOF LIKE SERVICES AND HEALTH CARE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND NOW AS WE COME OUT OF COVID, THOSE SERVICES ARE IN A WAY BOOMING BACK.

AND HOUSING, CONSUMER DURABLES, THE KIND OF CYCLICAL INDUSTRIES THAT NORMALLY MAKE UP THE BREAD AND BUTTER OF THE BUSINESS CYCLE ARE IN A WAY NOT IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT.

AND SO WE'RE STILL TRYING TO GRAB WELL THAT A LITTLE BIT.

>> COMING OUT OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE POST PANDEMIC RECESSION, U.S. GROWTH HAS BEEN TWICE AS GOOD AS A LOT OF ITS -- MOST OF ITS PEERS.

AND INFLATION HAS BEEN BAD, BUT NOT NEARLY AS BAD AS SOME OTHER PLACES.

OUR ECONOMY, IS IT FUNDAMENTALLY REALLY IN GOOD SHAPE NOW?

OR ARE PEOPLE RIGHT WHEN THEY WORRY ABOUT THE ECONOMY?

>> KIND OF BOTH.

BUT I THINK OVERALL, FOR SURE NORMED BY HOW THE EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN AROUND THE WORLD, WE'VE HAD A STRONG RECOVERY POST-COVID.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE LESSER SUNG -- I WON'T SAY UNSUNG, BUT LESSER SUNG ELEMENTS OF THAT HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLE INCREASE OF BUSINESS DYNAMISM, OF PEOPLE STARTING NEW FIRMS, THAT THAT HAD BEEN DECLINING OVER SOME TIME.

AND YOU HAVE REALLY SEEN POST-COVID A REBOUND OF THAT ENTREPRENEURIAL SPIRIT, LET'S CALL IT, OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.

I THINK THAT'S BEEN A BIG PART OF WHY THE GROWTH RATE HAS BEEN HIGHER.

BUT THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THERE -- IT'S NOT PARADISE.

AND THERE ARE DEFINITELY BOTH INDUSTRIES, GEOGRAPHIES, AND INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE HURTING.

AND THE PRICES BEING AS HIGH AS WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU SEE THAT IN PEOPLE'S SENTIMENTS AND IN THE VIBES, DISSATISFACTION WITH SOME PARTS OF THE ECONOMY.

>> ONE OF THE STATISTICS THAT STRUCK ME IS THAT THE AVERAGE WAGE NOW, HOURLY WAGE IN THE U.S. AFTER THE PANDEMIC IS UP 22%.

IS THAT A LARGE NUMBER?

AND IS THAT A SENSE THAT MAYBE THAT WILL RIPPLE THROUGH AND THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER?

OR IS THAT AN INFLATIONARY PROBLEM?

>> YEAH, SOME OF ALL OF THAT.

I KIND OF THINK OF THE QUESTION OF IF THE INFLATION RATE COMES DOWN, WHICH IS TO SAY PRICES CONTINUE TO GROW, BUT THEY ARE GROWING AT A SLOWER RATE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE, IS THAT ENOUGH OR SHOULD THE FED BE AIMING TO GET THE PRICE LEVEL BACK DOWN TO WHAT IT WAS IN 2019.

NOW THE ONE THING IS THAT'S NOT THE FED'S TARGET.

THE FED'S TARGET IS 2% INFLATION GROWTH OF PRICES, AND IF YOU WERE GOING TO TRY TO HAVE DEFLATION TO GET THE PRICE LEVEL TARGET, YOU WOULD REALLY HAVE TO CRUSH THE ECONOMY TO TRY TO GET THAT KIND OF DEFLATION.

EVEN IN THE DEPTHS OF THE GREAT RECESSION, YOU DON'T SEE WIDESPREAD DEFLATION.

IT'S REALLY ONLY IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION THAT YOU SEE THAT KIND OF DEFLATION.

SO THE NORMAL WAY THAT WE WOULD BE VIEWING A HEALTHY ECONOMY WOULD BE TO COMPARE THE WAGE GROWTH LIKE YOU SAY TO HOW MUCH THE PRICES ARE UP.

AND IF WE'RE SEEING REAL WAGE GROWTH, THAT IS WAGE GROWTH FASTER THAN PRICES, THAT'S A POSITIVE.

THAT'S WHERE REAL INCOMES ARE GETTING HIGHER, AND IF YOU BACK THROUGH THE CHAIN, HOW MUCH REAL INCOME GROWTH CAN YOU HAVE WITHOUT GENERATING MORE INFLATION, THE ANSWER DEPENDS VERY MUCH ON THE GROWTH OF PRODUCTIVITY.

AND WE HAVE -- WE HAD FOR ABOUT A YEAR VERY ROBUST PRODUCTIVITY GROWTH, WHICH MADE A LOT OF PEOPLE MORE OPTIMISTIC.

MAYBE THIS IS A SCENARIO BACK LIKE WHAT WE HAD IN THE LATE 90s OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

BUT IT'S A NOISY SERIES.

AND THE THINGS GO UP AND THINGS GO DOWN.

AND IN THE LAST ONE, THE PRODUCTIVITY GROWTH RATE SLOWED A LOT.

SO WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP AN EYE ON THAT ONE TO SEE HOW MUCH IT CAN GO UP.

>> WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT INFLATION, THEY'RE IN THE FOOD PRICES, BUT IT'S ALSO IN HOUSING.

HOW DO YOU GET HOUSING PRICES DOWN?

>> LOOK, THERE IS TWO PARTS TO THE HOUSING.

IT'S NOT EVEN A PUZZLE.

THERE IS TWO PARTS OF THE HOUSING PROBLEM.

THAT IS THE FED HAS A 2% INFLATION TARGET, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT DIDN'T MEAN THAT THE PRICE AND THE INFLATION OF EVERYTHING WAS 2%.

BEFORE THERE WAS COVID, HOUSING WAS ABOUT 3.5%.

SERVICES WERE ABOUT 2.5%, AND PHYSICAL GOODS WERE ABOUT MINUS 1%.

AND COMBINED, THAT WAS WHAT GOT US TO 2%.

WE THEN GO THROUGH A STRANGE PERIOD OF COVID.

ALL OF THOSE INFLATION RATES GO WAY UP.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS GOODS INFLATION BACKED DOWN TO SOMETHING LIKE MINUS 1% AS IT WAS BEFORE.

SERVICES STILL ELEVATED, BUT APPROACHING THE LEVELS THEY WERE BEFORE.

AND THE BIG OUTLIER HAS BEEN HOUSING INFLATION.

AS YOU RAISED.

AND IT'S DOWN FROM ITS PEAKS, BUT IT'S STILL WELL ELEVATED COMPARED TO WHERE IT WAS PRECOVID.

AND I'VE BEEN SAYING I THINK IF WE DON'T GET THAT INFLATION RATE BACK DOWN TO SOMETHING LIKE WHAT IT WAS BEFORE, WE'RE GOING HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING TO 2%.

NOW THERE IS A MECHANICAL WAY IN WHICH MARKET RENTS FLOW THROUGH WITH A LAG INTO THE OFFICIAL MEASURES OF INFLATION.

AND IT HASN'T DONE THAT AS FAST AS WE THOUGHT IT WOULD.

I'M STILL OPTIMISTIC THAT IT'S GOING TO.

BUT THERE IS MORE THAN THE MECHANICAL.

BUT THEN THERE IS THE DEEPER ISSUE WHICH IT SOUNDED LIKE IS KIND OF THE PREMISE OF YOUR QUESTION.

WHICH IF YOU RAISE RATES A LOT IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, AND YOU HAD BASICALLY ZERO PERCENT INTEREST RATES FOR A LISTENING PERIOD, PEOPLE GOT MORTGAGES VERY LOW, AND NOW MORTGAGE RATES ARE MUCH HIGHER.

AND SO THERE IS -- IT'S NOT JUST DEMAND THAT GOES DOWN WHEN YOU RAISE THE INTEREST RATE, IT'S ALSO A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO SAY WELL, I DON'T WANT TO SELL MY HOUSE BECAUSE I HAVE A CHEAP MORTGAGE.

AND IF I MOVE TO A NEW HOUSE, I'M GOING HAVE AN EXPENSIVE MORTGAGE.

I'M GOING TO JUST WAIT.

AND YOU HAVE SEEN OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD THE WILLINGNESS OF EXISTING HOMEOWNERS TO PUT THEIR HOUSES ON THE MARKET, HAVING A STRANGE IMPACT ON PRICES AND ON SUPPLY IN THE HOUSING MARKET.

SO THE FED IS HAVING TO BALANCE THAT OUT A LITTLE BIT AS WELL.

>> AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN, WALTER.

>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, THERE IS ONE MORE HAPPY HUMPBACK WHALE SWIMMING IN THE WILD THANKS TO A WESTERN CREW IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA, WHO SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED A COMPLEX TWO-DAY MISSION TO FREE THE DISTRESSED WHALE, WHICH WAS ALL TANGLED UP IN A FISHING NET WRAP AROUND ITS BODY.

THE TEAM MANAGED TO TRACK THE MOVEMENTS OF THE 12 METER LONG MAMMAL BEFORE TAKING A SMALL RAFT TO ITS LOCATION AND CUTTING THROUGH THE NET, LEADING THE HUMPBACK SAFELY TO FREEDOM.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.