May 31, 2024

>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE ONLY VOICE THAT MATTERS IS THE VOICE OF THE JURY AND THE JURY HAS SPOKEN.

>> THE WORLD REELS AS FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS FOUND GUILTY IN ALL COUNTS IN HIS HUSH MONEY KISPERT WE COVER ALL THE ANGLES.

FIRST, THE LEGAL HIT WITH FORMER SOLICITOR GENERAL NEAL KATYAL.

AND -- >> THIS IS A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT HAUNTS REPUBLICANS WHILE AFFECTING DEMOCRATS.

HOW WILL TRUMP RESPOND?

I ASKED DAVID IRVIN, WHO SERVED AS AN ADVISER ON BOTH OF THE PRESIDENTS FORMER CAMPAIGNS.

PLUS, SARAH LONGWELL TELLS ME HOW CONSERVATIVE VOTERS ARE REACTING TO THIS VERDICT.

ALSO AHEAD, WE HEAR ABOUT THE HISTORIC NATURE OF THIS MOMENT.

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>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE COME ON THIS HISTORIC FRIDAY.

I AM BIANNA GOLODRYGA.

THERE WAS A UNANIMOUS VERDICT ON THURSDAY.

THEY FOUND DONALD J. TRUMP GUILTY ON 34 COUNTS.

HE WAS CHARGED WITH FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS TO COVER UP A HUSH MONEY PAYMENT TO STORMY DANIELS.

AND NOW, TRUMP COULD FACE PRISON TIME.

HE WILL BE SENTENCED ON JULY 11th, DAYS BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION ANOINTS THEM CANDIDATE FOR THE THIRD TIME.

WE WILL BE COVERING THAT STORY AND WE START WITH THE FACTS OF THE CASE ITSELF.

WHAT HAPPENED, HOW, AND WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

NEAL KATYAL WAS ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL AND HAS ARGUED MANY CASES BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY WILL DECIDE TRUMPS CASE.

WE COULD SEE THIS CASE GO TO THE SUPREME COURT, AS WELL, GIVEN THAT TRUMP IS PLANNING TO APPEAL IT.

NEIL JOINTS THE PROGRAM NOT TO EXPLAIN THE INS AND OUTS OF THIS UNPRECEDENTED MOMENT.

WE DESCRIBE A LOT OF EVENTS AS UNPRECEDENTED, BUT WE CAN'T OVERSTATE THE MOMENT TODAY, WHAT WE HEARD FROM THAT JURY YESTERDAY AFTER NEARLY 10 HOURS OF DELIBERATIONS.

THE FACT THAT YOU HAD 12 OF THE FORMER PRESIDENTS PEERS CONVICT HIM ON ALL 34 COUNTS.

WE HAVE SEEN IT WAS EXPECTED GIVEN THE POLARIZATION IN THIS COUNTRY, TO EXTREME REACTIONS .1 SAYING THAT THE RULE OF LAW WORKS IN THIS SYSTEM, THAT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM WORKS AND THAT NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

OBVIOUSLY, THE FATHER DOES OTHER RESPONSE IS FAR DIFFERENT AND FAR DARKER COME SING THAT THIS WAS A WITCH HUNT.

EXPLAIN FOR US YOUR INTERPRETATION, YOUR LEGAL INTERPRETATION OF HOW THIS VERDICT CAME DOWN.

>> THANK YOU.

I THINK I WOULD SUMMARIZE WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY WITH THREE WORDS .34 FOR 45.34 COUNTS ALL ADJUDICATED GUILTY FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE 45th PRESIDENT.

WHAT IS MOST SIGNIFICANT IS THAT THESE ARE NOT MISDEMEANOR COUNTS.

THESE ARE FELONIES, SERIOUS THINGS.

THE PROSECUTOR, MR. STEIN GLASS TOLD THE JURY, THIS ALLOWED TRUMP TO COVER UP WHERE HE WAS GETTING HIS CAMPAIGN FINANCE CONTRIBUTIONS FROM JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION.

IT MAY HAVE SWUNG THE ELECTION IN 2016 FOR DONALD TRUMP.

ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT THING I THINK IS BEING REPORTED IS THAT WELCOME HE WAS FOUND GUILTY OF 34 COUNTS.

YOU SAID A WORD I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

YOU SAID IT IS UNANIMOUS.

THAT IS RIGHT.

THE JURY UNANIMOUSLY FOUND SO, WHICH IS WHAT NEW YORK LAW REQUIRES TO CONVICT SOMEONE OF A FELONY.

AND THEY DID SO UNDER THE MOST DIFFICULT STANDARD FOR PROSECUTORS TO MEET.

THE HIGHEST STANDARD IN THE LAW, BURDEN OF PROOF.

BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

TRUMP HAD THREE FANTASTIC LAWYERS AT HIS TRIAL ON HIS SIDE.

HE PRESENTED HIS DEFENSE AND HE LOST.

HE LOST UNANIMOUSLY.

HE LOST BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

WHEN YOU HEAR PEOPLE NOT TRYING TO TEAR THE SYSTEM DOWN AND SAY, OH, THE JURY IS BIASED AND SO ON, REMEMBER THAT THE JURY HAD TO MAKE THOSE FINDINGS AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF THESE LEGAL STANDARDS.

NOTABLY, ONE OF THE JURORS, JUROR NUMBER 2 SAID IN THE QUESTIONNAIRE, THE ONLY NEWS SOURCE THAT THIS PERSON LOOKS AT, NOT NEW YORK TIMES OR FOX NEWS OR NEWSMAX OR MSNBC, OR EVEN CNN OR PBS, ONE SOURCE ONLY.

TRUMP SOCIAL, TRUMPS WEBSITE.

THAT PERSON VOTED TO CONVICT.

>> AND AS YOU KNOW, NEIL, THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF FRUSTRATION AND CONCERN AND EVEN THOSE DESCRIBING THIS CASE AS THE WEAKEST, THE LEAST SIGNIFICANT OF THE FOUR, THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS FACING, AND OBVIOUSLY, THIS ONE THE ONLY ONE WE ARE LIKELY TO SEE GO TO TRIAL BEFORE THE ELECTION.

HE SAID THESE ARE FELONIES, BUT WE SHOULD NOTE THEY ARE LOW- LEVEL FELONIES IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, ALTHOUGH HE VERY WELL MAY NOT BE SENTENCED TO PRISON TIME.

THIS IS A CASE THE DOJ DECIDED NOT TO BRING UP.

THAT ALVIN BRAGG'S PREDECESSORS DECIDED NOT TO BRING UP.

WOULD YOU SAY TO THOSE THAT ARE MAKING THAT SPECIFIC ARGUMENT THAT, YES, THE JURY DID THEIR JOB, BUT THIS WAS NOT A CASE WHERE THE OF GOING TO TRIAL, GIVEN THE DEFENDANT HERE.

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY AGREE THAT THE JANUARY 6th TRIALS IN GEORGIA AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL ARE MORE SIGNIFICANT.

I'M HARD-PRESSED TO IMAGINE SOMETHING MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN A PRESIDENT, AS RESIDENT, TRYING TO LAUNCH A COUP TO KEEP HIMSELF IN POWER.

I DON'T THINK THAT GETS HIM OFF THE HOOK FOR OTHER TERRIBLE CONDUCT, AND HERE, YOU ARE RIGHT.

THEY ARE LOW-LEVEL FELONIES.

SOMETIMES, REALLY SERIOUS CRIMES TURN OUT TO BE LOW-LEVEL FELONIES.

IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE FACTS.

HERE ARE THE FACTS, AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT STEINGLASS IN HIS CLOSING DID SO WELL IN ELIMINATING.

YES, IT'S A LOW LEVEL FELONY, BUT IT IS A LOW LEVEL FELONY WITH THE MOST HUGE OF CONSEQUENCES, POSSIBLY SWAYING THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, AND THE IDEA THAT NEW YORK DOESN'T PROSECUTE THESE CRIMES, THAT IS TOTALLY POPPYCOCK COMMITTEES THE TECHNICAL LEGAL TERM.

THIS DA HAS PROSECUTED DOZENS OF THOSE CASES ON MUCH WEAKER, YOU KNOW, FACTS AND SO ON, JUST IN THE LAST YEAR.

SO I DON'T BUY THAT.

AND THIS IS REALLY TRUMPS MO, HIS MODUS OPERANDI, WHICH IS TO THROW SO MANY DIFFERENT CRIMES, SO MANY DIFFERENT OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS AT EVERYONE, THE AMERICAN VOTERS AND EVERYONE ELSE, YOU KIND OF LOSE TRACK AND GET INNARD.

THE JURY DIDN'T LOSE TRACK.

IT IS SIGNIFICANT THAT YOU HAVE SOME CONVICTED OF 34 FELONIES.

>> ONE THING THAT WE DID HEAR FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT WHICH WAS EXPECTED SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE HEARD, AN ARGUMENT THAT HE AND SUPPORTERS HAVE MADE, COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO BREAK DOWN THE LEGAL GROUNDS OF THAT CLAIM, IS WHAT HE SAID YESTERDAY AFTER THE VERDICT.

HE SAID THIS WAS DONE BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN ORDER TO WOUND OR HURT A POLITICAL OPPONENT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THAT IS NOT THE CASE?

>> I CAN BARELY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HECK HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS A NEW YORK LOCAL PROSECUTION BY ALVIN BRAGG, WHO IS VOTED FOR BY THE VOTERS IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH BIDEN.

ZERO TO DO WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

IT IS JUST COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS, RIDICULOUS, AND 100% WRONG EVERY DAY OF EVERY WEEK.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I'M REALLY CONCERNED WITH -- LIKE I SAID FOR THE LAST WEEKS, I SAID, WHATEVER THE JURY DECIDES, WE SHOULD ACCEPT IT.

THAT IS OUR SYSTEM.

IN ONE OF THE THINGS I'M SO WORRIED ABOUT TRUMP, AND WE SEE IT HERE AND ELSEWHERE, IS HE ONLY CARES ABOUT HIMSELF.

HE IS WILLING TO BURN THE SYSTEM DOWN AND ATTACK IT IN ORDER TO JUST GET AHEAD.

IN STATEMENTS LIKE WHAT HE SAID YESTERDAY ARE PERFECT ILLUSTRATIONS OF THAT.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND FOR YOU FROM ALVIN BRAGG ABOUT WHAT HE SAID IN TERMS OF WHITE HEAT BROUGHT THESE CHARGES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> MY OFFICE, INCLUDING THE TALENTED PROSECUTORS YOU SAW IN ARRAIGNMENT EARLIER TODAY HAVE FOUND HUNDREDS OF FELONIES.

DISCHARGE CAN BE THE BREAD AND BUTTER OF OUR WHITE-COLLAR WORK.

>> NO DOUBT HE WAS TAKING RISKS WITH THIS CASE.

OTHERS DECIDED NOT TO DO WHAT HE DID.

IN YOUR VIEW, WAS THAT THE RIGHT MOVE?

WOULD YOU HAVE BROUGHT THIS CASE?

>> OH, 100%.

I THINK THE ONLY REASON NOT TO BRING THE CASE IS BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO SCARED TO BRING A CASE AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT, WHO'S GOING TO THREATEN YOU, ATTACK YOU, TRY TO BRING THE SYSTEM DOWN.

AND THE LIKE.

I MEAN, TRUMPS MINIONS WERE ALL PREDICTING THAT HE WAS GOING TO HAVE A VICTORY.

HE DIDN'T HAVE A VICTORY.

HE HAD AS BIG OF A LOSS AS YOU CAN POSSIBLY IMAGINE, AND HIS RESPONSES TO TRY TO BURN THE SYSTEM DOWN, AND TO ME, WHAT I FIND MOST OFFENSIVE ABOUT THAT IS A VERDICT LIKE YESTERDAY -- AND BRAGG'S DECISION TO BRING THESE CHARGES IN THE FIRST PLACE VINDICATES THE FOUNDERS VIEW OF WHAT AMERICA IS.

CHECKS AND BALANCES.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IS NOT PROSECUTING EFFECTIVELY, YOU CAN HAVE STATES THAT COME IN AND ACT AS A CHECK AND BALANCE, AS ALVIN BRAGG DID FOR NEW YORK CITY IN THIS PROSECUTION.

I THINK ABOUT WHY MY PARENTS CAME TO THIS COUNTRY FROM ANOTHER, AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THAT SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES, BECAUSE THE IDEA IS NO PERSON IS ABOVE THE LAW, AND WE ARE WATCHING THAT PLAY OUT IN REAL TIME IN THE MOST PROFOUND OF WAYS.

AND I UNDERSTAND TRUMP IS ANGRY, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, A JURY OF HIS PEERS CONVICTED HIM 34 TIMES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT AND UNANIMOUSLY.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY.

IT NEVER HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

TO A FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES POINT >> WE SHOULD NOTE IT HAS HAPPENED TO LEADERS OF OTHER DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, FRANCE, ISRAEL, SOUTH KOREA, TAIWAN, JUST TO NAME A FEW, BUT IT'S INTERESTING.

I WAS RECEIVING NOTES AND TEXT MESSAGES FROM FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES AROUND THE WORLD WHO WERE GLUED TO THIS DECISION YESTERDAY, AND THEY WERE BAFFLED BY THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD ONCE AGAIN, HAVING BEEN CONVICTED RUN FOR OFFICE, THE ELECTED, AND SERVE ANOTHER TERM.

EXPLAIN WHY, EXACTLY.

YOU MENTIONED THAT FOUNDING FATHERS, THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY DIDN'T ANTICIPATE EVERY SCENARIO.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

THEY HAVE A SIMPLE DOCUMENT, BUT THEY DIDN'T THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO WERE GOING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AND POSSIBLY WIN ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE FELONS.

SO IT WASN'T SOMETHING IN THEIR LEXICON, AND SO, THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE SOMETIMES GAPS IN THE LAW.

THEY'RE ALL -- ARE ALL SORTS OF GAPS IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT ONE COULD SAY THEY SHOULD BE FILLED.

THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

SO YES, TRUMP IS GOING TO GET TO RUN, AND HE VERY WELL ON JULY 11th MAY BE SENTENCED TO A PRISON TERM.

I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY UNLIKELY AT THIS POINT, GIVEN THE GRAVITY OF THE OFFENSES, TRUMPS LACK OF REMORSE, HIS BEHAVIOR IN AND OUT OF COURT, AND THE LIKE.

MAYBE IT WILL BE HOME CONFINEMENT, BUT THERE WILL BE SOME TERM OF CONFINEMENT THAT I SUSPECT WILL BE IMPOSED ON HIM.

NOW, HE'S GOING TO APPEAL, AND HE WILL FILE SOMETHING CALLED BAIL PENDING APPEAL, WHICH HE WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY GET, WHICH MEANS THE CONFINEMENT TERM, WHETHER IT BE IN PRISON OR AT HOME WILL NOT BE IMPOSED UNTIL HIS APPEAL IS OVER, AND THAT IS MORE THAN A YEAR AWAY.

I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO DIRECTLY AFFECT HIS ABILITY TO CAMPAIGN IN THE ELECTION, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT CERTAINLY, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC NOW KNOWS THAT ONE OF THE TWO CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR OFFICE RIGHT NOW IS AN ADJUDICATED FELON AND FOUND SO FIRST BY THE GRAND JURY WITH PROBABLE CAUSE, NOW BY THE JURY UNANIMOUSLY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING, NEAL KATYAL, THAT YOU THINK THE JUDGE WILL CONFINE HIM IN SOME CAPACITY.

HE HAS STATED IN NUMBER OF TIMES AT THE START OF THIS TRIAL THAT HE IS AWARE OF THAT MAGNITUDE AND HISTORIC NATURE OF THIS TRIAL.

JUST QUICKLY, DO YOU THINK THAT WILL BE THE RESULT OF HIS SENTENCING BECAUSE OF THE CRIMES HE'S CONVICTED OF, OR BECAUSE OF HIS BEHAVIOR?

>> IT'S THE CRIMES HE'S COMMITTED -- CONVICTED OF.

THAT IS THE ULTIMATE FACTOR HERE.

THE JUDGES CONCERNED ABOUT THE HISTORIC NATURE AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HAPPENING.

THAT IS WHY I SUSPECT MANY -- ONE OF MANY REASONS THERE WILL BE A TERM OF CONFINEMENT IN POST, BUT IT WILL BE SUSPENDED, PENDING HIS APPEAL.

-- ONE OF THE MANY REASONS THERE WILL BE A TERM OF CONFINEMENT IMPOSED, BUT IT WILL BE SUSPENDED, WE HAD MANY JANUARY 6th CASES ADJUDICATED, BUT DONALD TRUMP HAS TRIED EVERY TACTIC IN THE BOOK TO STOP THOSE CASES FROM COMING TO TRIAL AND STOPPING YOU AND ME AND THE AMERICAN PUBLIC FROM DOING WHAT -- FINDING OUT WHAT HE DID ON JANUARY 6th.

>> IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOUR EXPERTISE ON THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FOR WEEKS, DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN SEATED AT THE FRONT OF SMALL MANHATTAN COURTROOM AS A PARADE OF WITNESSES TESTIFIED TO SOME UNSAVORY AND SOMETIMES EMBARRASSING INCIDENTS FROM HIS PAST.

WATCHING IT ALL WAS --.

NORMAN EISEN.

NORMAN EISEN JOINS US FROM NEW YORK.

YOU HAD THE UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE OF BEING AN EYEWITNESS TO HISTORY IN THE MAKING.

WE HAD OUR REPORTERS DILIGENTLY WORKING IN BRINGING OUR VIEWERS UP-TO-THE-MINUTE DEVELOPMENTS IN THIS CASE, BUT IT IS QUITE DIFFERENT TO SEE IT FOR YOURSELF.

I'M JUST WONDERING, GIVEN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE MOMENT, THE SIX WEEKS THAT WE HAVE NOW SEEN AND ENTERED -- ENDURED, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND YESTERDAY WHEN YOU HEARD THAT REPEATED 34 COUNT OF GUILTY FROM THE JURY?

>> BIANNA , IT WAS A MIX OF THOUGHTS AND EMOTIONS.

YOU CAN'T HELP BUT FEEL SAD -- SET FOR THE DEFENDANT, BUT FOR THE COUNTRY, THAT A FORMER PRESIDENT HAS SUNK TO THIS LEVEL, BUT ALSO, A SENSE OF PRIDE THAT THE RULE OF LAW HAD WORKED.

THE CORE IDEA UPON WHICH OUR NATION WAS FOUNDED, THAT NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

THAT IS WHY WE OVERTURNED THE RULE OF KING GEORGE III AND SET UP THE CONSTITUTION IN HIS PLACE.

AND THEN, THE OTHER THOUGHT THAT I HAD WAS, THE THING THAT I SAW IN THIS COURTROOM -- AND IT WAS FIRST AND FOREMOST IN MY MIND AS THE FOREMAN STOOD AND READ THOSE 34 GUILTY VERDICTS -- THIS TRIAL WAS REALLY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S AT SALT -- ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY IN 2016.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TRIAL, RIGHT DOWN TO ALL FOUR OF THE QUESTIONS THAT THE JURY ASKED YESTERDAY, FOCUSED ON THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE, CONSPIRACY THAT WAS ALLEGED ON THE PART OF DONALD TRUMP, AND THE JURY CONVICTED HIM OF.

THAT FOREMAN COULD NOT HAVE STOOD THERE AND FOUND DONALD TRUMP GUILTY OF 34 FELONY DOCUMENT FALSIFICATION COUNTS.

THAT WAS IN THE CASE, TOO.

IT WAS LAST TIME OF THOSE SIX WEEKS OF THE DOCUMENT FALSIFICATION, UNLESS THERE WAS AN UNDERLYING CRIME.

THE ONLY CRIME THAT WAS SENT BACK TO THE JURY WAS ELECTION CONSPIRACY, 2016, PAYING HUSH MONEY TO DECEIVE THE VOTERS AND GRASP POWER.

IT REALLY WAS IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS ABOUT PROTECTING DEMOCRACY.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF HOW THE JURY CONDUCTED THEMSELVES THROUGHOUT THIS TRIAL, AT TIMES A BIT DRAB AND IN THE WEEDS, AT TIMES QUITE SALACIOUS, GIVEN WHO THE WITNESSES WERE, BUT WE HEARD FROM OUR REPORTERS THAT THEY WERE QUITE DILIGENT.

THEY TOOK A LOT OF NOTES.

AND WERE REALLY LASER FOCUSED.

>> BIANNA , I LOVED WATCHING THEM.

I WOULD SPEND SOME TIME LOOKING AT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS REACTIONS, THE JUDGE, THE DEFENSE LAWYERS.

I MUST HAVE SPENT HALF OF THOSE SIX WEEKS JUST LOOKING AT THE JURY.

THE JURY MEMBERS.

SOMETIMES, THEY WOULD SEE ME LOOKING AT THEM.

I HAD A PAIR OF BINOCULARS.

MANY OF THE REPORTERS BROUGHT AN OCULAR'S, AND THEY WOULD STARE BACK AT ME.

WHY ARE YOU LOOKING AT ME IN THIS BINOCULARS?

BUT I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH THEM.

REALLY, WITH EVERYBODY WHO PARTICIPATED, IN THIS CASE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE TRIP -- FORMER PRESIDENT, WHO ACTED OUT, 10 CONTEMPT FINDINGS AGAINST HIM -- IF THERE WAS ONE MORE, THE JUDGE SAID HE WOULD SEND HIM TO JAIL.

THE JURY WAS ATTENTIVE.

I NEVER SAW THEM, UNLIKE DONALD TRUMP, SLEEPING.

THEY PAID ATTENTION TO THE WITNESSES.

THE JUDGE, THE PARTIES, AND YOU COULD SEE THEM REACTING TO THE THINGS THAT THEY WERE OBSERVING .

SOMETIMES, THE REACTIONS WERE POSITIVE.

THEY WOULD LAUGH.

THEY WOULD APPRECIATE A JOKE THAT ONE OF THE LAWYERS OR ONE OF THE WITNESSES TOLD, AND SOMETIMES, THE REACTIONS WERE NEGATIVE.

YOU COULD SEE WHEN THEY DID AND DID NOT BELIEVE WITNESSES.

AT THE TIME, ONE OF THE BIGGEST DISAGREEMENTS THAT I HAD DURING THE TRIAL WITH COLLEAGUES WHO WERE NOT IN COURT WAS THE CROSS- EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL COHEN, THE SUPPOSED GOTCHA MOMENT WHEN HE WAS CONFRONTED.

HIS RECOLLECTION WAS REFRESHED ABOUT ONE OF TWO ISSUES THAT WAS DISCUSSED ON A CALL.

THE JURY LIKED MICHAEL COHEN AND CLEARLY BELIEVED MICHAEL COHEN.

THEY DID NOT HAVE THAT REACTION.

I WAS ABLE TO LEAVE THE ROOM AND DEBATE THAT WITH PEOPLE, AND CLEARLY, THEY BELIEVED HIM IN COMING BACK WITH THIS VERY FACT -- VAST -- FAST VERDICTS.

>> ONE ARGUMENT FOR HAVING CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM IS FOR AMERICAN VOTERS TO SEE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT IS HAPPENING, WHAT IS TAKING PLACE.

SADLY, IN THIS CASE, WE HEARD LARGELY FROM THE DEFENDANT THEMSELVES COMING OUT, AND AT TIMES, SPEAKING UNTRUTHS ABOUT THE MOTIVATIONS, AND THE WITCHHUNT AGAINST HIM.

I'M JUST CURIOUS, GIVEN ALL OF THE NEGATIVE DESCRIPTIONS THAT HE'S GIVEN THIS PROSECUTION IN TERMS OF THEIR MOTIVES, WHY ALVIN BRACK WENT AFTER HIM, CAN YOU JUST GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE -- WAS THERE JOY OR CELEBRATION FROM THE PROSECUTION SIDE ONCE THIS VERDICT WAS DELIVERED?

WHAT WAS THE PROSECUTION'S REACTION?

>> HAVING BEEN A TRIAL LAWYER FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES, I CAN TELL YOU, WHEN HE PUT A CASE IN, AND YOU GET BACK THE VERDICT YOU HOPE FOR, YOUR FIRST FEELING HIS RELIEF.

THERE CERTAINLY WAS NO JOY OR NO ELATION.

THEY KEPT A VERY EVEN TEMPER, GIVEN THE SOMBER NATURE OF THE MOMENT.

YOU COULDN'T READ WHAT THE FEELINGS WERE OF THE PROSECUTORS.

I'M SURE THEY FELT RELIEF.

AND THEY SHOULD FEEL THAT THEY DID A GOOD JOB.

DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYERS ALSO DID A VERY GOOD JOB .

I WROTE A DAILY CNN.COM TRIAL DIARY.

25 OF THEM FOR 25 DAYS OF TRIAL.

AND ONE OF THEM I DEDICATED TO, WITH A FEW BUBBLES HERE AND THERE, WHAT AN OUTSTANDING JOB THE DEFENSE HAD DONE, SO THEY SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY DID EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY WERE UNDERMINED FROM TIME TO TIME BY MR. TRUMP, BUT THE PROSECUTORS, I THINK FELT A SENSE -- I HOPE THEY FELT A SENSE OF PRIDE AT THE DAS PRESS CONFERENCE, YOU COULD SEE THE DIGNIFIED SATISFACTION THAT THEY TOOK IN A JOB WELL DONE.

AND THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

>> NORMAN EISEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS, HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> EARLIER TODAY, SPEAKING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE ABOUT ITS.

>> THEY FOUND DONALD TRUMP GUILTY ON ALL 34 FELONY COUNTS.

NOW, HE'LL BE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAL THAT DECISION JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS THAT OPPORTUNITY.

THAT IS HOW THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF JUSTICE WORKS.

AND IT IS RECKLESS -- IT IS DANGEROUS -- IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO SAY THIS WAS RIGGED JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE THE VERDICT.

>> WELL, NOW, TEAM TRUMP ISN'T WASTING ANY TIME DENOUNCING THE CHARGES.

AT A PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT LAMBASTING THE VERDICT, AS, QUOTE, RIGGED.

REPUBLICANS ARE BEHIND TRUMP, DENOUNCING THE U.S. JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I AM JOINED BY DAVID IRVING, AN ADVISER TO DONALD TRUMP'S 2015 AND 2020 ELECTION CAMPAIGNS AND JOINS THE PROGRAM WITH HIS PERSPECTIVE ON THIS CONVICTION.

DAVID, FIRST LET ME GET YOUR REACTION TO THE VERDICT.

IT APPEARED LIKE SOMETHING THAT WASN'T A SURPRISE, EVEN THE FORMER PRESIDENT HIMSELF JUST A DAY PRIOR, HE SAID THAT EVEN MOTHER TERESA COULDN'T GET OFF THESE CHARGES.

YOUR REACTION TO IT AND THE FACT THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT ONCE AGAIN WENT OUT MONTHS AGO , ATTACKING THE SYSTEM, ATTACKING THE JUDGE, ATTACKING THE WITNESSES.

>> YEAH, BIANNA , THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

LOOK, I NEVER WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT BE FOUND GUILTY IN A CITY WHERE ROUGHLY 90% OF THE JURY POOL VOTED AGAINST HIM.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FIND A JURY THAT WOULD NOT NOT CONVICT DONALD TRUMP IN THIS CASE.

SO I THINK TO START OUT WITH, YOU KNOW, IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO TRY TO GET A QUOTE UNQUOTE JURY OF YOUR PEERS IN A CITY THAT NO ONE PARTICULARLY CARES FOR YOU.

THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN THIS CASE RAN -- ONE OF HIS MAJOR THEMES ON HIS PLATFORM WAS, I'M GOING TO GET DONALD TRUMP.

REGARDLESS OF THE CHARGES, HE WAS OUT BEFORE HE WAS EVEN ELECTED TO TAKE DONALD TRUMP DOWN.

THE PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK, WHO WAS THERE FOR A LONG TIME AND WIDELY REGARDED, HE LOOKED AT THESE EXACT SAME CHARGES, THOUGHT LONG AND HARD, AND TOOK A PASS BECAUSE I THINK HE REALIZED THAT THERE WAS REALLY NO THERE THERE.

THAT U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TOOK A PASS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO THERE THERE.

AND ALAN BRAGG, A POLITICAL -- >> AND THAT'S A POINT THAT WE MADE EARLIER THIS HOUR WITH NEAL KATYAL, THAT ONE CAN QUESTION -- IT IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION WHETHER THIS CASE SHOULD'VE BEEN BROUGHT.

I GUESS IT GETS DANGEROUS WHEN YOU START TO SAY THAT A TRIAL CAN'T BE FAIR, A DEFENDANT CAN'T GET A FAIR TRIAL DEPENDING ON WHAT'S THE DEPOSIT DOMINANT PARTY OR HOW A CERTAIN STATE VOTES.

I MEAN, THIS WAS A JURY THAT THE DEFENSE AND PROSECUTION HAD A CHANCE OF PICKING THEMSELVES.

THESE 12 JURORS, ALL OF THEM SAID THEY SWORE THAT THEY CAN BE OBJECTIVE JURORS.

THEY CAME FROM A WHITE BACKGROUND.

ONE EVEN SAID THAT THEY GET THEIR NEWS FROM TRUTH SOCIAL.

ISN'T THAT A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO SAY ANYBODY IN A STATE PERHAPS THAT DOESN'T VOTE ALONG PARTY LINES ISN'T A FAIR TRIAL?

>> NO, BIANNA .

I WOULD SAY THIS.

LET'S DO A GAME HERE.

LET'S THINK ABOUT IF THERE WERE A SIMILAR SITUATION IN THE STATE OF TEXAS OR A DEEP RED STATE IN THE SOUTH, WHERE THE SITTING JUDGE HAD MADE THREE POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS, ALBEIT SMALL, THEY MADE THREE POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS.

ONE ONLINE, AND CHECKED THE BLOCK THAT SAYS, I'M GOING TO GIVE MONEY AGAINST, LET'S SAY, THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE IN THE CASE.

LET'S PRETEND IT WAS BARACK OBAMA, AND HE GAVE MONEY TO BARACK OBAMA'S OPPONENTS, AND HIS DAUGHTER WORKED FOR BARACK OBAMA'S OPPONENT, AND THE CASE WAS TRIED IN THE SOUTH IN A RUBY RED STATE, AND A RUBY RED COUNTY, DEMOCRATS HEADS WOULD EXPLODE.

THEY WOULD GO CRAZY.

I BELIEVE THE PREMISE IS FLAWED TO START WITH THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD GET A FAIR TRIAL THERE.

LOOK, I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES IN AMERICA THAT HE COULD GET A FAIR TRIAL.

I JUST DON'T THINK NEW YORK CITY IS ONE OF THEM.

>> BUT AS YOU KNOW, THIS JUDGE PLAYED THE ROLE OF A REFEREE.

IT WASN'T UP TO HIM TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO CONVICT TRUMP.

THE ONLY THING HE IS REALLY DECIDING HERE IS WHAT HIS SENTENCE WILL BE.

I KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN SOME QUESTIONS FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT A CERTAIN WITNESS COULD TESTIFY THAT WERE NOT ACCURATE.

I MEAN, THAT WITNESS WAS ALLOWED TO TESTIFY, THOUGH THEY HAD TO STAY WITHIN CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF WHAT THEY COULD AND COULDN'T TALK ABOUT OR BE ASKED.

SO GIVEN THAT THIS JUDGE, AS YOU SAY, MAYBE THESE WERE SMALL DONATIONS -- THE JUDGE WASN'T THE JURY HERE, THOUGH.

>> NO, BUT THE JUDGE -- THE JUDGES THE REFEREE, AS YOU SAY.

THE JUDGE RULES DURING THE CASE, WHEN THE CASE IS PENDING, IT'S ONGOING.

THE JUDGE IS MAKING RULINGS EVERY DAY WHETHER IT IS TO SUSTAIN AN OBJECTION OR NOT.

THE JUDGE GIVES THE JURY CHARGES.

THE JUDGE COULD'VE MADE -- OFFERED THE JURY A LESSER OFFENSE HERE.

THERE'S LOTS OF KEY THINGS THE JUDGE DOES.

TO PRETEND THAT THE JUDGES PARTISANSHIP PLAYS NO PART IN THIS OR THAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S PARTISANSHIP PLAYS NO PART IN THIS -- IT IS JUST NOT FAIR TO EITHER SIDE, AND BIANNA , I THINK IT IS SCARY FOR ALL AMERICANS THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE CROSSED THE RUBICON TO REALLY POLITICIZE THIS.

THIS CASE, GOING AFTER A POLITICAL OPPONENT IN THIS MANNER.

WHETHER YOU LIKE DONALD TRUMP OR NOT, THE PLACE TO BEAT HIM IS THE BALLOT BOX.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BIDEN SAID.

>> THERE HAS BEEN CASE AFTER CASE AFTER CASE.

YEAH.

WELL, LISTEN.

YOU DON'T HEAR ME.

I'M NOT IMPUGNING JOE BIDEN IN THIS CASE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT ALVIN BRAGG.

ALVIN BRAGG IS THE BAD ACTOR, IN MY OPINION.

>> DAVID, WE HEARD PRESIDENT BIDEN AS HE WAS DELIVERING A MESSAGE ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST.

ALSO RESPONDED TO THE CONVICTION YESTERDAY OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, CONVICTED ON 34 COUNTS.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

THAT WAS REAFFIRMED.

THIS WAS A STATE CASE, NOT A FEDERAL CASE, MEANING HIS DOJ WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.

HE SAID IT'S ONCE AGAIN A REMINDER THAT A JURY WAS CHOSEN FOR THIS CASE INVOLVING DONALD TRUMP, THE WAY THEY ARE CHOSEN FOR EVERY OTHER CASE.

HE WENT ON TO SAY THAT IT IS RECKLESS, DANGEROUS, AND IRRESPONSIBLE TO SAY IT IS RIGGED BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE THE VERDICT.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT'S COMMENTS?

>> YEAH.

I DON'T DISAGREE WITH HIM.

IT WASN'T A FEDERAL CASE.

GOING BACK TO THE PREMISE, BIANNA , THAT ALVIN BRAGG WAS A PARTISAN DEMOCRAT RUNNING TO GET ELECTED AND HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISE WAS, I'M GOING TO GET ONE OF MY POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

THAT IS JUST BANANA REPUBLIC STUFF.

THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN AMERICA.

IF IT ISN'T TROUBLING IN THIS CASE, IT SHOULD BE TROUBLING BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

ONCE THE DOOR IS OPEN AND THESE KIND OF THINGS, IT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO THE NEXT PERSON.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

YOUR COLLEAGUE HERE AT THE NETWORK SAID, I DOUBT AS MANY AMERICANS DO, THAT IF THIS DEFENDANT'S NAME WASN'T DONALD J. TRUMP, THIS CASE WOULD'VE BEEN DROPPED.

I THINK LOTS OF AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BELIEVE THAT HE WAS TARGETED AND TAKEN DOWN SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE HE IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE HE IS AHEAD IN THE POLLS.

THE ONLY WAY TO STOP HIM IS TO KEEP HIM OFF THE BALLOT, AS THEY HAVE TRIED TO DO, AS DEMOCRATS HAVE TRIED TO DO IN STATE CASE AND STATE CASE ACROSS THE UNITED STATES WITH 14th AMENDMENT CLAIMS THAT HAVE FALLEN SHORT.

SO AGAIN, JUST DEMOCRATS, BEAT DONALD TRUMP AT THE BALLOT.

IF YOU CAN'T DO IT, STOP THE LAWFARE.

IT IS A BAD PRECEDENT.

IT IS TERRIBLE FOR OUR COUNTRY.

>> DAVID IRVING, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS, BIANNA .

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> MOMENTS AFTER BECOMING AMERICA'S FIRST FELON FORMER PRESIDENT, TRUMP TOLD REPORTERS THAT THE REAL VERDICT IS GOING TO BE NOVEMBER 5th.

IN A FEW MONTHS TIME, A DEEPLY DIVIDED AMERICA WILL DECIDE WHETHER HE WILL RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO WHAT DO VOTERS REALLY THINK, AND HOW ARE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS REACTING TO THE VERDICT?

IF YOU HAVE THEIR FINGER ON THE PULSE MORE THAN SARAH LONGWELL , THE FOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, PUBLISHER OF THE BULWARK, AND PUBLISHER OF THE FOCUS GROUP PODCAST.

SIR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

ONLY TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THAT WAS QUITE NOTABLE PRIOR TO THE VERDICT HAVING BEEN REACHED.

THE FACT THAT WE FOUND OUT THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS FOUND GUILTY AND CONVICTED ON 34 COUNTS.

FORMER MARYLAND GOVERNOR THREE HOGAN WHO IS RUNNING FOR MARYLAND SENATE TWEETED THIS.

REGARDLESS OF THE RESULT, I URGE ALL AMERICANS TO RESPECT THE VERDICT AND THE LEGAL PROCESS.

AT THIS DANGEROUSLY DIVIDED MOMENT IN OUR HISTORY, ALL LEADERS, REGARDLESS OF PARTY, WAS NOT FOR FUEL ON THE FIRE WITH MORE TOXIC PARTISANSHIP.

WE MUST REAFFIRM WHAT HAS MADE THIS NATION GREAT.

THE RULE OF LAW.

THAT TWEET ALONE GOT THIS RESPONSE FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER.

YOU JUST ENDED YOUR CAMPAIGN.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW AND THE STATE OF OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM WHEN A STATEMENT LIKE THAT, JUST THAT OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM SHOULD BE RESPECTED, GOT THAT TYPE OF REVIEW?

>> LOOK.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH -- IT IS INTERESTING.

THEY PLAY A LOT OF LIP SERVICE TO THE RULE OF LAW.

AND RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE JUST SAW HAPPEN WAS THE RULE OF LAW GETTING APPLIED.

AND THE FACT THAT SO MANY REPUBLICANS ARE UNWILLING TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THIS VERDICT, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE TRIAL WAS FAIR, THAT THE JURY SELECTION WAS FAIR, THAT THE JUDGE WAS FAIR, AND THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS REALLY THE ONE WHO BEHAVED APPARENTLY THROUGHOUT THE THING -- THE FACT THAT THEY CAN'T ACCEPT THIS IS A SIGNAL OF HOW TRIBAL AND POLARIZED POLITICS HAS BECOME TO.

YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT ABOUT -- DONALD TRUMP HAS COMMITTED A LOT OF CRIMES.

THIS IS JUST ONE.

THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY CASE WE ARE GOING TO GET TO SEE TRIED BEFORE THE ELECTION, BUT HE HAS BEEN INDICTED TENS AND TENS OF TIMES.

HE WAS INDICTED ON THE INSURRECTION AROUND JANUARY 6th.

THERE WERE CHARGES RELATED TO THAT.

HE WAS INDICTED WITH THE DOCUMENTS, WHEN THEY WERE COMING BACK TO GET CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS FROM HIM, HE REFUSED TO TURN THEM OVER AND HE LIED ABOUT IT.

HE'S BEEN IMPEACHED TWICE.

HE'S HAD A SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION.

IF REPUBLICANS WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIM GET CONVICTED OF FEWER CRIMES, DONALD TRUMP SHOULD COMMIT FEWER CRIMES.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ELECTED A CRIMINAL, AND AS A RESULT, OUR SYSTEM IS BEING TESTED IN WAYS THAT IT HAS NEVER BEEN TESTED BEFORE, AND IT LEAVES OFFICE WITH VERY FEW GOOD OPTIONS.

NOBODY WANTS AMERICA TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE THE PERSON WHO HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR THE PRESIDENT FOR A MAJOR PARTY IS STANDING TRIAL.

NOBODY WANTS TO SEE THAT.

THE REASON THAT'S HAPPENING IS BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP COMMITS A LOT OF CRIMES.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, IT IS NOTABLE THAT THE BEST DEFENSE THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD GET FROM A SERIOUS LEGAL EXPERT IS THAT THIS CRIME IS THE LESSER OF THE CRIMES THAT HE HAS COMMITTED.

BUT I'M CURIOUS.

YOU TALK ABOUT HOW POLARIZED THE COUNTRY'S.

PEOPLE CAN PICK AND CHOOSE THEIR NEWS OUTLETS AND WHAT TYPE OF NEWS THEY WANT TO WATCH AND HOW THEY WANT TO INTERPRET IT.

EXPLAIN TO US HOW THIS TRIAL, THIS VERDICT WAS PLAYING OUT ON FOX NEWS.

>> WELL, HERE IS WHAT IS INTERESTING.

SO WE ACTUALLY HEARD THIS FROM A LOT OF VOTERS IN OUR FOCUS GROUPS.

BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T HAVE CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM, THE VOTERS WERE HEARING THE COURT CASE DISTILLED THROUGH THE EYES OF THE MEDIA.

WE WOULD ACTUALLY HEAR VOTERS TRYING TO FOLLOW THIS BUT LOTS OF VOTERS WERE NOT TRACKING THIS TRIAL.

THEY WERE NOT PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION, BUT FOR THE ONES THAT WERE, THEY WERE SAYING THINGS LIKE, HEY, I WATCHED THE COVERAGE ON FOX ABOUT THE TRIAL AND I'M SURE THIS CASE IS GOING TO GET THROWN OUT, BUT THEN I TURN ON ABC OR A DIFFERENT CHANNEL AND IT SOUNDS LIKE TRUMP IS GOING TO GET CONVICTED, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE.

SO IF YOU WATCH, NOT JUST FOX NEWS, BUT YOU IF YOU LIVE EXCLUSIVELY IN THE RIGHT-WING INFOTAINMENT MEDIA ECOSYSTEM, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY WELL SORT OF INURED TO BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD WALK FROM THIS.

THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THIS IS -- THERE IS NO WAY THEY ARE GOING TO CONVICT HIM.

WELL, IT WAS A PRETTY CLEAR-CUT CASE IN TERMS OF HIM BEING CONVICTED, AND IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO ME THAT THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT CHUNK OF TRUMP VOTERS THAT THINK THAT TRUMP WAS DONE 30 BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY HEAR FROM THE MEDIA THAT THEY LISTEN TO ALL THE TIME.

>> AND YET, EVEN WITH THAT, IT WAS INTERESTING TO HEAR DONALD TRUMP -- AND I THINK THE ONE THING THAT TRUMP AND BIDEN AGREE ON IS THAT BOTH SAY THAT THE REAL VERDICT WILL BE THE POLITICAL VERDICT ON NOVEMBER 5th.

HERE IS HOW SCOTT REID SAID THIS LEGAL VERDICT YESTERDAY WILL PLATE WITH VOTERS.

HE SAID, IN THE LAST SIX WEEKS, ANOTHER JURY OF SORTS, VOTERS IN BATTLEGROUND STATES HAVE BEEN WATCHING TRUMP AND HIS COHORT CONTINUES TO GROW EVEN AVENUES -- AS HE SHATTERS ANOTHER NORM.

VOTERS IGNORE THE SENSATIONALISM AND FINALLY THINK HOW THEY HAD BETTER UNDER TRUMP.

IS THAT HOW YOU SEE IT?

>> NOT EXACTLY.

VOTERS RIGHT NOW -- JOE BIDEN IS THE PRESIDENT.

WHEN THEY HAVE THINGS THEY ARE FRUSTRATED BY, WHETHER IMMIGRATION, INFLATION, OTHER ISSUES WITH THE ECONOMY, THEY BLAME JOE BIDEN.

DONALD TRUMP IS SORT OF OUT OF FRAME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE COURT CASE DID WAS ACTUALLY ALLOWED TRUMP TO SORT OF NOT BE AS TOP OF MIND BECAUSE HE WAS SITTING IN A COURTROOM.

HE'S NOT CAMPAIGNING.

HE HAS PEOPLE LOOKING BACKWARDS.

WE JUST LITERALLY LITIGATED THE STORMY DANIELS CASE.

THE PUBLIC HAS LITIGATED THAT A LONG TIME AGO.

THE QUESTION IS, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN VOTERS LOOK FORWARD ANSWER TO REALLY CONSIDER WHAT A SECOND TERM OF DONALD TRUMP LOOKS LIKE.

LOOK.

I DON'T THINK THIS CONVICTION IS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE IN TERMS OF PUBLIC OPINION, BUT I DO THINK THE PERSUADABLE VOTERS IN THIS ELECTION, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TWO FUNCTIONAL INCUMBENTS, ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T REALLY LIKE EITHER PERSON.

I HEAR THIS AND FOCUS GROUPS ALL THE TIME.

THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CHOOSE THE LESSER OF THE TWO EVILS.

AS TRUMP COMES MORE INTO FOCUS AS A CONVICTED FELON, I THINK THAT JUST PROVIDES ANOTHER BARRIER FOR SOME OF THESE SWING VOTERS, WHO ALREADY DON'T LIKE TRUMP, AND AS THEY REALLY START TO FACE THE IDEA OF HIM BEING PRESIDENT AGAIN FOR ANOTHER LOG YOUFOUR YEARS, THEY THINK, YEAH, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN GO DOWN THAT ROAD.

EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIKE BIDEN, THAT SEEMS TOO MUCH.

I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER LOT YOU -- THROW ON THE FIRE >> HIS SUPPORTERS ARE GOING TO STAY WITH HIM THROUGH THE END.

IN TERMS OF THIS INDEPENDENT AND UNDECIDED VOTERS, IS THERE ANY POSITIVE FROM WHAT WE SAW YESTERDAY FROM THIS DECISION FROM THE JURY, IS THERE ANYTHING POSITIVE THAT TRUMP CAN TAKE AWAY IN TERMS OF TRYING TO GET THESE PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR HIM?

>> NO.

THE FACT IS, THE MONEY THAT HE IS RAISING IS FROM PEOPLE WHO ALREADY LIKE HIM AND WERE ALREADY GOING TO VOTE FOR HIM AND ARE ALREADY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIM.

FOR INDEPENDENT SWING VOTERS, THIS IS NOT A POSITIVE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

>> ALL RIGHT, SARAH LONGWELL , THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

WELL, IT IS A VERDICT THAT WILL BE FOREVER CEMENTED IN HISTORY.

AND ALMOST 250 YEARS OF AMERICA AS WE KNOW IT, NO U.S. PRESIDENT HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME UNTIL THIS WEEK.

SO WHERE DOES THIS MOMENT STAND IN THE LONGER ARC OF U.S. HISTORY?

WE SPEAK TO TO 20.

>> WHAT THE LAST 24 HOURS HAVE BEEN IN THE CONTEXT OF PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY -- HOW SIGNIFICANT WAS THIS?

>> WELL, THIS WAS YESTERDAY'S GUILTY VERDICT IN THE NEW YORK STATE CASE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

IT WAS SIGNIFICANT IN TERMS OF PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY.

IT HAS TWO SIGNIFICANCES.

THE FIRST IS A VERY SIMPLE ONE.

IT IS ONE THAT WILL BE REMEMBERED FOR ALL TIME.

THAT'S THAT IN THIS COUNTRY, EVEN THE MOST POWERFUL CAN BE FOUND GUILTY, CAN BE INDICTED AND CONVICTED BY A JURY OF THEIR PEERS.

NO FORMER PRESIDENT, NO PRESIDENT HAS EVER BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME, AND WE HAVE JUST ESTABLISHED A PRECEDENT THAT WILL GO ON FOREVER.

THAT SIGNIFICANCE IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

THE SECOND ONE, WELL, WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT TO UNDERSTAND.

THE SECOND SIGNIFICANCE IS TO OUR POLITICS.

WE'VE NEVER HAD ONE OF THE TWO PRINCIPAL PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

WE TALK ABOUT OCTOBER SURPRISES.

THOSE ARE SURPRISES THAT OCCUR AT THE END OF AN ELECTION THAT COULD -- PARTICULARLY IN A CLOSE ELECTION, SHIFT ENOUGH VOTERS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER TO ALTER THE OUTCOME.

WELL THIS IS THE MAY SURPRISE BUT WE DON'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE ELECTION.

ONE OF THE PRESUMED TWO MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATES BEING FOUND GUILTY.

WHAT WE CAN PREDICT IS THAT SOME OF THE RHETORIC OF THIS CAMPAIGN WILL SHIFT, AND REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON THE RULE OF LAW IN OUR LEGAL INSTITUTIONS.

IF YOU SAY THAT WE HAVE THE RULE OF LAW AND YOU SAY THAT JUSTICE IS IMPARTIAL IN AMERICA, THEN DONALD TRUMP IS A CONVICTED FELON.

AND HOW DO YOU NOMINATE A CONVICTED FELON TO LEAD YOUR PARTY TO THE PRESIDENCY?

SO WE CAN ANTICIPATE A TORRENT OF TOXIC LANGUAGE THAT IS GOING TO SEEK TO WEAKEN THE INSTITUTIONS OF OUR LEGAL SYSTEM , THE WAY THE STOP THE STEAL CAMPAIGN SOUGHT TO WEAKEN AMERICAN TRUST IN OUR ELECTORAL SYSTEMS.

WE KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE STOP THE STEAL CAMPAIGN.

THE TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES CULMINATING IN JANUARY 6th.

WE CAN'T TELL WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE LIKELY ATTACK ON OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM WILL BE THIS TIME.

>> YESTERDAY, ONE OF MY NEIGHBORS SAID TO ME, HEY, LOOK, NIXON DIDN'T GO TO JAIL.

RIGHT?

IF, IN HIS MIND, IF THIS GOT TO A POINT WHERE HE SAW THE IMAGE OF THIS PRESIDENT EVEN FOR A DAY BEHIND BARS, FOR HIM, THAT IS A RUBICON THAT CANNOT BE CROSSED BECAUSE IT CAN HAPPEN TO THIS PRESIDENT.

WHAT'S TO SAY THAT EVERY PRESIDENT AFTER, WHEN THEY LEAVE OFFICE, WON'T BE TRIED ON CHARGE X OR Y FROM A POLITICAL OPPONENT?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE THAT RICHARD NIXON CERTAINLY SHOULD'VE BEEN INDICTED.

THE REASONS WHY GERALD FORD PARDONED NIXON ARE UNDERSTANDABLE.

GERALD FORD WAS A GREAT AMERICAN.

HE STABILIZED OUR SYSTEM, RESTORED SOME TRUST IN GOVERNMENT.

BUT I THINK THE MISTAKE HE MADE WAS NOT TO WAIT FOR THE INDICTMENT SO THAT THE CRIMES THAT PRESIDENT NIXON ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED WOULD BE IN PLACE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO SEE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE NIXON CASE AND THE TRUMP CASE.

I THINK THAT IS WHY THE INDICTMENTS WERE IMPORTANT.

AT LEAST THE ABILITY OF GRAND JURIES TO INDICT OR IMPORTANT AFTER THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, UNLIKE RICHARD NIXON, SOUGHT TO REMAIN PART OF OUR POLITICAL WORLD.

RICHARD NIXON KNEW HIS CAREER WAS OVER.

HE COULDN'T RUN AGAIN.

HE HAD BEEN ELECTED TWICE.

HE WASN'T PLANNING TO DISRUPT OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM IN EXILE.

DONALD TRUMP DID NOT ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THE 2020 ELECTION , AND THEREFORE, WAS PLANNING TO CONTINUE HIS CAMPAIGN TO BE PRESIDENT.

SO THE DIFFERENCES ARE CLEAR.

GERALD FORD WAS THINKING THAT HE WOULD ALLOW RICHARD NIXON A MORE PEACEFUL POLITICAL EXILE.

GERALD FORD DID NOT PARDON NIXON SO THAT NIXON COULD RETURN AS A POLITICAL FIGURE.

DONALD TRUMP DECIDED TO RETURN AS A POLITICAL FIGURE, AND SO, HE, IN A SENSE, MANDATED THAT HIS CRIMES -- NOT HIS ALLEGED CRIMES, BE TRIED, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HEALTHY FOR A POLITICAL SYSTEM TO HAVE A FELON AS PRESIDENT.

I THINK THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENCES.

ONE LAST POINT, AND IT'S FAIR ON THE PART OF THOSE WHO WORRY ABOUT POLITICAL TRIALS -- IF YOU ASSUME THAT EVERY TRIAL OF A POWERFUL PERSON IS POLITICAL, RIGHT, AND A PRESIDENT BEING TRIED AFTER HE OR SHE LEAVES OFFICE PUTS US IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS COUNTRIES WITH LOW POLITICAL TRUST -- ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU RESPECT OUR INSTITUTIONS, YOU SHOULD THINK THAT A GRAND JURY SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO INDICT A POWERFUL PERSON, REGARDLESS OF WHAT POSITION IT IS.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR SOCIETY THAT EVERYBODY, REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH THEY RISE IN OUR ELITE, UNDERSTAND THAT IF THEY COMMIT A CRIME, THEY WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE.

WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE ONCE SOMEBODY BECOMES PRESIDENT, THEY KNOW THAT FOREVER, THEY WILL NEVER BE TRIED OR INDICTED BECAUSE THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE POLITICAL.

THAT WOULD BE DANGEROUS.

THAT WOULD BE GIVING A BLANK CHECK TO ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, DON'T WORRY.

IN OUR COUNTRY, YOU CAN'T BE INDICTED BECAUSE YOU WERE ONCE OUR HEAD OF STATE.

>> IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN LEARN FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WHO HAVE HAD SIMILAR CHALLENGES WITH THEIR LEADERSHIP?

WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OR TRIED -- WHAT IS THE BEST LESSONS THAT WE CAN TAKE?

>> DON'T ELECT CONVICTS TO OFFICE.

THAT IS THE BEST ADVICE.

HERE IS WHERE THE UNPRECEDENTED IS ACTUALLY PRECEDENTED.

OUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN LUCKY DUE TO TWO THINGS.

THE STRENGTH OF ITS INSTITUTIONS, AND THE FACT THAT MOST OF ITS HEADS OF STATE COULDN'T CONCEIVE OF THE BEHAVIOR THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS EXHIBITED.

THAT WE HAVE NEVER FACED -- NEVER FACED THE PROSPECT OF A CONVICTED CORRUPT MAN COMING INTO THE OFFICE -- OVAL OFFICE.

BUT MANY COUNTRIES HAVE.

SADLY, TOO MANY COUNTRIES HAVE FOUND POWERFUL MEANT SEEKING TO OBTAIN OR ACQUIRE POWER TO AVOID THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS AND THEN TO STAY IN POWER AS LONG AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID TRIALS TO COME.

THERE ARE SO MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU HAVE LEADERS -- REALLY, DICTATORS, WHO DON'T LEAVE OFFICE BECAUSE THEY ARE FEARFUL THERE WILL BE A DAY OF RECKONING, SHOULD THEY CONTROL ALL THE LEVERS OF POWER IN THEIR COUNTRY.

>> YOU STUDY LEGACIES.

AT ONE POINT, YOU DIRECTED THE NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY.

HISTORY IS SOMETIMES KINDER TO THE LEGACY OF PRESIDENTS WITH THE BENEFIT OF TIME.

NIXON LARGELY STAYED OUT OF PUBLIC LIFE, BUT SAY, PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON WHO WAS IMPEACHED, HE IS ACTIVE ON THE WORLD STAGE.

WHAT HAPPENS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP?

DOES THIS BECOME A SMALL ASTERISK?

DOES THIS BECOME A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC?

>> WELL, DONALD TRUMP'S HISTORY HASN'T BEEN FULLY WRITTEN YET.

I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS IN NOVEMBER.

IF HE RETURNS TO POWER, ONE COULD PREDICT THAT HE WILL TRY TO UNDERMINE OUR LEGAL SYSTEM BY USING THE PRESIDENTIAL PARDON TO TRY TO MESS WITH AT LEAST THE TWO FEDERAL CASES THAT HE STILL FACES.

THAT WILL BE PART OF HIS HISTORY.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT AT THIS POINT TO KNOW IN ADVANCE WHAT MY FUTURE COLLEAGUES IN 30 YEARS WILL WRITE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

I MEAN, WHEN WE ARE LOOKING SOLELY AT HIS FIRST TERM -- THAT'S HIS FIRST TERM, AS OPPOSED TO HIS ONLY TERM -- WHEN WE ARE FOCUSED ON THE IRAN WAR, WHICH ALTERED THE MIDDLE EAST.

WE LOOK AT HIS GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH TO VACCINES.

HE PERSONALLY DID NOT SUPPORT WHAT HIS GOVERNMENT ACHIEVED, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE MOONSHOT APPROACH THAT HIS GOVERNMENT TOOK TO THE VACCINE ISSUE PROVED TO BE VERY BENEFICIAL FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, SO I'M LOOKING AT ELEMENTS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION THAT MIGHT GET MORE ATTENTION AS TIME PASSES, BUT WE STILL HAVE TO RECKON -- WE STILL HAVE TO RECKON WITH JANUARY 6th, WHICH, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ROLE YOU THINK HE PLAYED ON THAT DAY, OR PREPARING FOR THAT DAY, HIS RHETORIC CERTAINLY INFLAMED HIS BASE.

AND LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE BEHAVIOR THAT RESULTED IN THE ATTACK ON OUR CONGRESS.

SO, YEAH.

OVERTIME, SOME OF THE ACHIEVEMENTS THAT MEN AND WOMEN HAVE HAD IN THE WHITE HOUSE ARE FULLY APPRECIATED, BUT WHATEVER DAMAGE THEY CREATE, THAT DOESN'T DISAPPEAR.

IT'S JUST THAT EVERYTHING IS CONTEXTUALIZED.

DONALD TRUMP DID NOT HAVE AN OPENING TO CHINA MOMENT IN HIS FOREIGN POLICY.

THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS WERE IMPORTANT, BUT THEY DO NOT REALLY MATCH THE BRILLIANCE AND THE EFFECT OF NIXON GOING TO CHINA.

SO WHENEVER ONE LOOKS AT NIXON, OF COURSE, WATERGATE IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT SHOWS THE BASIC CORRUPTION OF THE MAN, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TWO COME TO TERMS WITH BOTH HIS APPROACH TO CHINA AND HIS APPROACH TO VIETNAM.

AND THE FACT THAT HE SIGNED SOME OF THE MOST PROGRESSIVE ENVIRONMENTAL BILLS.

SO WE DISLIKED HIM IN OUR HISTORY.

THE NIXON -- THE LEGACY FOR RICHARD NIXON IS COMPLEX AND COMPLICATED.

IF DONALD TRUMP SIMPLY ENDS UP WITH ONE PRESIDENTIAL TERM, THE BAD OF THAT TERM, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF JANUARY 6th, I THINK WILL FOREVER OUTWEIGH THE GOOD.

BUT I CAN ONLY SPEAK ON BEHALF OF HISTORIANS NOT YET BORN.

>> THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL IN OPENLY SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT?

IF I DON'T WIN THIS COMING ELECTION, IT IS RIGGED.

IF I GET A VERDICT THAT IS NOT IN MY FAVOR, IT IS CORRUPT.

AND REALLY, HE HAS BEEN QUITE SUCCESSFUL WITH HIS BASE AND REFRAMING THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6th AND THE CONTEXT OF THE ELECTION LIE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND I WONDER IF THE PRESIDENT HAS HAD I GUESS, A MEASURABLE EFFECT ON HOW AMERICANS THINK ABOUT FACTS, THINK ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT, THINK ABOUT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>> I THINK WE WOULD BE MISSING THE BIGGER STORY IF WE THOUGHT DONALD TRUMP WAS THE CREATOR OF ALL THE TENSIONS AND DIVISIONS IN OUR COUNTRY.

I THINK THAT WE ARE STILL PROCESSING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE GREAT RECESSION.

THE RECOVERY AFTER THE GREAT RECESSION WAS UNEQUAL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I SAW -- I REMEMBER A VERY SUGGESTIVE SET OF FACTS ABOUT THE COUNTIES IN THIS COUNTRY THAT VOTED FOR OBAMA, AND 12, AND THEN VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 16.

MANY OF THEM WERE COUNTIES THAT HAD NOT RECOVERED AS WELL ECONOMICALLY AS OTHERS IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO THERE IS AN ECONOMICS STORY HERE.

THERE IS A CULTURAL STORY.

JUST THAT MANY AMERICANS WHO FORM PART OF PRESIDENT TRUMP SPACE ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE CULTURAL AND SOCIAL CHANGES THAT HAVE OCCURRED IN OUR COUNTRY.

THEY FEEL -- SOME OF THEM FEEL THAT THIS, IN SOME WAYS, UNDERMINES THEIR IDENTITY.

IT CERTAINLY UNDERMINES THEIR ABILITY TO PREDICT HOW LIFE WILL BE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND FINALLY, LET'S NOT FORGET THE CONSEQUENCES OF COVID.

WE ARE STILL MAKING SENSE OF THE EFFECT OF THE PANDEMIC ON HOW WE INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER.

ON THE VERY BASIC QUESTIONS OF LIFE AND HUMANITY.

WRAP THOSE TOGETHER AND PUT THAT IN A SOCIAL MEDIA TO TALK WORLD, AND WHAT YOU END UP WITH IS THIS MOMENT WHERE A LOT IS GOING ON.

DONALD TRUMP IS THE AVATAR OF THE SORT OF THE DARK, SAD SIDE OF ALL OF THESE CHANGES.

YOU CAN TAKE A GLASS HALF-FULL AND TALK ABOUT OUR RESILIENCE AS A COUNTRY.

OUR ABILITY TO CHANGE.

OUR ABILITY TO CONTINUE TO INNOVATE.

WE ARE STILL THE CENTER OF MOST OF THE GREAT AND INTERESTING INNOVATIONS GOING ON IN THE WORLD.

AI, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU CAN SAY, OH MY GOODNESS, EVERYTHING IS CHANGING.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHAT MY PLACE WILL BE IN THE FUTURE.

THE FACT THAT THE GLASS ITSELF HAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WATER, THAT'S NOT DONALD TRUMP'S DOING.

HOW IT'S INTERPRETED BY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, THAT IS HELPED BY THE TRUMP PHENOMENON.

HIS NEGATIVE CHARISMA HAS HAD AN EFFECT IN INFLAMING -- MIXED METAPHORS, BUT -- HAD AN EFFECT IN INFLAMING THESE DIFFERENCES.

HE HAS WRITTEN THEM INTO POWER AT LEAST ONCE AND WANTS TO DO IT AGAIN IN 2024.

>> PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, TIMOTHY NAFTALI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.