June 3, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> AMIGAS, AMIGOS!

>> MEXICO ELECTS ITS FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT IN A LANDSLIDE.

BUT WILL SHE BRING REAL CHANGE OR MORE OF THE SAME?

AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR RELATIONS WITH THE U.S.?

WE GET THE LATEST.

>>> THEN -- >> OUR PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN.

WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THEY HAVE SPOKEN.

>> HISTORY IS MADE IN SOUTH AFRICA'S ELECTIONS, AFTER 30 YEARS IN POWER, THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS LOSES ITS MAJORITY.

WE LOOK AT WHAT'S AHEAD WITH TESSA DOOMS, HEAD OF SOUTH AFRICAN NGO THEORY VOEN YA CIRCLE.

>>> AND A CLOSER LOOK AT LIFE FOR WOMEN UNDER THE TALIBAN.

AUTHOR OF "THE BOOKSELLER OF KABUL" JOINS ME ABOUT HER NEW BOOK "THE AFGHANS."

>>> ALSO AHEAD, JOURNALIST GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS TAKES WALTER ISAACSON INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE'S NERVE CENTER, AS THEY DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, "THE SITUATION ROOM."

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT'S A BREAKTHROUGH MOMENT FOR MEXICAN WOMEN, AS THE NATION ELECTS ITS FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT.

FORMER MENTION CON MEXICO CITY MAYOR CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM SEALED HER PLACE IN HISTORY AS THE RESULT WAS CALLED.

THE PROTEGE OF THE POPULAR OUTGOING PRESIDENT ANDRES MANUEL LOPEZ OBRADOR, ALSO KNOWN AS AMLO.

THERE ARE CONCERNS THAT WHILE SHE WILL CONTINUE HIS POPULAR ANTI-POVERTY MEASURES, SHE MAY ALSO INHERIT SOME OF HIS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC EFFORTS, AS WELL AS HIS FAILURE TO REIN IN VIOLENCE.

THIS ELECTION SEASON WAS MARRED BY BLOODSHED, WITH DOZENS OF CANDIDATES MURDERED.

THE PRESIDENT-ELECT IS VOWING TO CONFRONT SUCH CRIME, BUT HOW?

AND WHAT WILL HER ELECTION MEAN FOR THE CRUCIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MEXICO'S NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH, THE UNITED STATES?

JOINING ME NOW ON ALL OF THIS IS MEXICAN SCHOLAR AND PUBLIC POLICY ANALYST VIRI RIOS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

A HUGE WIN FOR THE PARTY, VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN PRIOR TO 2018, OBVIOUSLY, A LARGE PART OF THAT ATTRIBUTED TO AMLO'S POPULARITY.

WHAT MORE CAN WE EXPECT NOW FROM PRESIDENT SHEINBAUM AND SOME OF HER POLICIES AS SHE IS EXPECTED TO STEP OUT OF HIS SHADOWS FINALLY?

>> SO, THE FIRST THING THAT I'D LIKE TO EMPHASIZE IS THAT THE VICTORY OF SHEINBAUM IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE NEVER OBSERVED IN THE HISTORY OF DEMOCRATIC MEXICO.

SHE'S WINNING BY 32-POINT DIFFERENCE, THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

SHE GOT ALMOST 60% OF THE VOTES, AND CHANCES ARE THAT SHE'S GOING TO WIN ALSO SUPER MAJORITIES IN BOTH CHAMBERS.

NOW, THE REASON WHY SHEINBAUM IS WINNING, AND HER MOST IMPORTANT MANDATE, IS TO ADVANCE SOCIAL POLICIES THAT ALLOW MEXICANS TO INCREASE THEIR SALARIES AND TO REDUCE POVERTY LEVELS.

THE REASON WHY OUTGOING PRESIDENT LOPEZ OBRADOR HAS BEEN SO POPULAR, HE DOUBLED THE MINIMUM WAGE, HE DOUBLED THE CASH TRANSFER, AND HISTORICAL REDUCTION IN POVERTY AND EQUALITY IN MEXICO.

NOW, HER MAIN CHALLENGE, SHEINBAUM IS ARRIVING TO A COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.

SO, SHE MAIN CHALLENGE IS GOING TO BE FISCAL AND ECONOMIC.

IN ORDER TO PERFORM THE SIMILAR POLICIES TO THE ONES THAT LOPEZ OBRADOR DID IN HIS PRESIDENCY, SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO DO A TAX REFORM, AND AS YOU KNOW, TAX REFORMS TEND TO BE UNPOPULAR.

NOW, A SECOND IMPORTANT CHALLENGE IS VIOLENCE.

IN THE LAST 15 YEARS, MEXICAN CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS HAVE DIVERSIFIED THEIR PORTFOLIO OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES AND THEY HAVE CHANGED FROM SELLING DRUGS TO THE U.S. TO SELLING DRUGS TO THE U.S. AND PERFORMING VERY DIVERSIFIED SET OF CRIMES, FOR EXAMPLE, EXTORTION, RACKETEERING.

SO, SHEINBAUM IS GOING TO HAVE TO FACE THAT CRIME.

THEN, FINALLY, I THINK, A THIRD CHALLENGE IS GOING TO BE MIGRATION.

AS YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN INCREASINGLY NUMBER OF CENTRAL AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE WAITING TO GET INTO THE U.S.

IN MEXICO, RIGHT?

SO, INCREASING THE CAMPS OF IMMIGRANTS, NOT ONLY IN THE ORDER, BUT ALSO IN THE CAPITAL CITY, IN MEXICO CITY, AND MANY OTHER PLACES OF THE COUNTRY.

SO, SHE'S GOING TO FACE A CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT.

>> SO, THIS COMES, AND I WANT TO GET TO IT IN A MOMENT, BUT JUST TO LET OUR VIEWERS KNOW OF NEWS WE'RE EXPECTING TO SEE FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN TOMORROW, WHERE HE IS EXPECTED TO ANNOUNCE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT WOULD AT LEAST TEMPORARILY EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN THE BORDER THERE, THIS CLEARLY COMING FROM A LOT OF PRESSURE ON HIS CAMPAIGN, AS THIS IS SEEN AS A TOP -- ONE OF THE TOP ISSUES FOR AMERICAN VOTERS.

SINCE YOU RAISED IT, LET ME GO THERE FIRST, AND HOW CAN WE EXPECT A SHEINBAUM ADMINISTRATION TO RESPOND TO THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, WHAT CAN WE EXPECT THIS RELATIONSHIP TO LOOK LIKE IN THE NEXT FOUR, FIVE, SIX MONTHS OF A BIDEN PRESIDENCY, AND PERHAPS ANOTHER TRUMP PRESIDENCY?

>> OKAY, SO, THE FIRST THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT MEXICO DOES NOT HAVE ITS OWN IMMIGRATION AGENDA.

THE IMMIGRATION AGENDA IN TERMS OF POLICIES IMPLEMENTED IN MEXICO IS DEFINED, DESIGNED, AND PUSHED IN THE U.S., RIGHT?

SO, MEXICO, IN THAT SENSE, IS A FOLLOWER TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE U.S.

WHENEVER THE U.S. HAS PUT PRESSURE ON MEXICO TO CLOSE THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF MEXICO, WHENEVER THE U.S. HAS PUT PRESSURE FOR MEXICANS TO INVEST IN MORE SECURITY, THAT HAS HAPPENED.

RIGHT?

SO, I THINK THAT IN THAT SENSE, ONCE WE UNDERSTAND THE BALANCE OF POWER OF MEXICO AND THE U.S., BASICALLY, IMMIGRATION POLICY IS GOING TO BE DETERMINED NOT BY SHEINBAUM, NOT BY THIS ELECTION, BUT BY THE NOVEMBER ELECTION IN THE U.S., RIGHT?

AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE GOING TO OBSERVE, IF TRUMP WINS, THAT'S WHEN WE'RE GOING TO OBSERVE, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE -- WHAT'S TO FOLLOW FOR MEXICO.

>> YEAH, AND WHETHER PRESIDENT SHEINBAUM WILL RENEW A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT BETWEEN -- SIGNED BETWEEN CANADA, MEXICO, AND THE UNITED STATES, AS WELL, THAT REALLY DELVES INTO THE POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS AND ASPECTS HERE, BUT ALSO THE POPULIST, AS WELL.

IF WE CAN GET TO THE ISSUE OF CRIME ITSELF, ONE OF THE ANTIDOTES THAT WE SAW SHEINBAUM'S PREDECESSOR AMLO REALLY REINFORCE IS AN INVESTMENT IN THE MILITARY, AND HANDING OVER POLICING AND ANY SORT OF SECURITY ROLE TO THE MILITARY.

THAT HAD BEEN MET WITH WIDE SKEPTICISM AND JUST JUDGING BY THE NUMBERS, IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

DURING THIS CAMPAIGN, WE HEARD VAGUE ANSWERS WHEN CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM WAS ASKED HOW HER POLICIES WOULD DIFFER, IF SHE WOULD KEEP THAT SAME POLICY SPECIFICALLY ON TURNING TO THE MILITARY IN TAKING AWAY CIVILIAN JOBS, GIVING THEM TO THE MILITARY.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE NOW THAT SHE IS IN OFFICE?

>> RIGHT.

OKAY, SO, THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING QUESTION, AND LET ME ANSWER IT IN TWO WAYS.

RIGHT, SO, THE FIRST ONE, WHAT HAPPENED DURING LOPEZ OBRADOR'S TERM AND WHAT SHE HAS SAID.

SO, AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE HAS BEEN A MILITARIZATION PROCESS, BASICALLY USING THE MILITARY TO TAKE CONTROL OF SOME CIVILIAN ACTIVITIES AND BECOMING THE MAIN FEDERAL POLICE OF THE COUNTRY, RIGHT?

I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE WITH SHEINBAUM.

AND THE REASON IS VERY SIMPLE.

BESIDES THE MILITARY, THERE IS NO OTHER FEDERAL POLICE ANYMORE, RIGHT?

GIVEN THE CHALLENGES THAT MEXICO IS FACING TODAY IN TERMS OF CRIME, IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO -- IMPOSSIBLE, FANTASY, RIGHT, TO PRETEND THAT SHE'S GOING TO JUST GET RID OF THE MILITARY AND THEN NOT HAVE ANY FORCE TO ACTUALLY ENFORCE, RIGHT?

NOW, THE SECOND THING, AND ONE THING THAT PERSONALLY I FEEL VERY HOPEFUL ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT WHEN WE OBSERVE SHEINBAUM AS MAYOR OF MEXICO CITY, SHE DID NOT MILITARIZE THE POLICE IN MEXICO CITY.

ACTUALLY, SHE DID THE OPPOSITE.

SHE CREATED ONE OF THE MOST FUNCTIONAL CIVILIAN POLICE OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

SHE MANAGED TO REDUCE VERY SIGNIFICANTLY CRIME, SHE MANAGED TO REDUCE HOMICIDES.

IT WAS A SUCCESS IN MEXICO CITY, FLIGHT SO, WHAT WE -- WE DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE'S GOING TO DO, BUT CHANCES ARE, THIS IS GOING TO GO INTO -- ON ONE SIDE, USING THE MILITARY FOR FIGHTING ORGANIZED CRIME AND DRUG CARTELS, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, CREATING, MAYBE, A SET OF FUNCTIONAL LOCAL POLICE THAT ARE BETTER FUNDED TO GO AFTER CRIMINALS THAT COMMIT DOMESTIC CRIMES.

>> I WANT TO GET TO ONE OF THE CONTROVERSIES SURROUNDING HER PREDECESSOR, AMLO, DESPITE HIS POPULARITY.

THERE HAD BEEN A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT WHAT MANY CONSIDERED DEMOCRATIC BACKSLIDING, CONTINUING ATTACKS ON THE CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THE COUNTRY, WEAKENING VARIOUS INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING THE ELECTORAL BODY.

THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN THAT THESE POLICIES WILL CONTINUE WITH THIS NEW ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT CAN WE EXPECT, AND WHAT SHOULD WE BE LOOKING OUT FOR, SPECIFICALLY NOW THAT IT APPEARS THAT BOTH THE UPPER AND LOWER HOUSE WON THE MAJORITY FOR THE PARTY, WHICH GIVES THEM MORE CONSTITUTIONAL CONTROL, AND THE ABILITY TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AND AMEND IT, PERHAPS EVEN INTRODUCING A NEW SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, POWERS THAT AMLO HIMSELF DIDN'T HAVE.

>> RIGHT.

SO, A LOT OF THE CRITICISMS OF MEXICAN DEMOCRACY BACKSLIDING CAME FROM MISINTERPRETATION OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY.

BECAUSE, INDEED, LOPEZ OBRADOR, IN MANY INSTANCES, HE PROPOSED VERY CONTROVERSIAL REFORMS, BUT THOSE REFORMS NEVER PASSED IN CONGRESS.

THOSE REFORMS WERE SYSTEMATICALLY REJECTED, EITHER BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE A MAJORITY, OR BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT REJECTED THESE REFORMS FOR PROCEDURAL REASONS.

SO, THE IDEA THAT MEXICAN DEMOCRACY WAS BACKSLIDING, IT WAS NOT SUPPORTED, IN FACT, INSTITUTIONS REMAIN SOLID, AND THE PROOF IS THAT THE ELECTION YESTERDAY WAS, YOU KNOW, FREE, FAIR, AND MAJORITY DEMOCRATIC, RIGHT?

NOW, THAT DOES -- THAT DOES TAKE US TO THESE MONTHS, RIGHT, AND TAKES US TO DIFFERENT MEXICO, BECAUSE THE MEXICO THAT SHEINBAUM IS GOING TO RULE IS GOING TO BE A MEXICO WHERE SHE IS GOING TO HAVE MAJORITIES.

SHE'S GOING TO HAVE SUPER MAJORITIES TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AND TO APPROVE CONTROVERSIAL REFORMS, IF SHE WANTS TO, RIGHT?

SO, I THINK THAT THE COUNTRY IS NOW IN A MUCH, I WOULD SAY, SLIPPERY TERRITORY, AND INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION SHOULD BE ON ANALYZING THE SPECIFIC PROPOSALS SHEINBAUM ADVANCES.

I DON'T THINK THE AGENDA OF SHEINBAUM IS TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY.

I THINK HER AGENDA IS MUCH MORE SIMPLE.

HER AGENDA IS JUST TO IMPROVE THE SALARIES OF PEOPLE, CREATE BETTER JOBS, AND REDUCE POVERTY.

>> YEAH.

AND I DON'T THINK AMLO, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, APPROACHED GOVERNMENT BY SAYING I WANT TO DISRUPT DEMOCRACY, AS WELL, IT JUST SEEMED THAT HE HAD THE DESIRE AT TIMES TO BEND THE SYSTEM AND THE CHECKS AND BALANCES HELD IN PLACE FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE A SUPER MAJORITY.

SO, DO WE KNOW WHAT A SHEINBAUM ADMINISTRATION WOULD DO IF, IN FACT, POLICY SHE'S TRYING TO PUSH FORWARD ARE MET WITH RESISTANCE FROM MINORITY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS OR THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM?

>> WE DON'T KNOW HOW SHE'S GOING TO REACT.

BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT SHE CAN REACT WITH MUCH MORE FORCE THAN LOPEZ OBRADOR, RIGHT?

BECAUSE SHE HAS A MUCH MORE POWERFUL AND DEMOCRATIC MANDATE.

AND I'D LIKE TO -- I'D LIKE TO RECONCILE THE IDEA THAT -- TWO IDEAS HERE ON THE TABLE, RIGHT?

ON ONE SIDE, WE HAVE A FULL DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED WOMAN WITH THE LARGEST MANDATE THAT MEXICAN DEMOCRACY HAS EVER GIVEN TO ANYBODY, RIGHT?

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, RIGHT, WE'RE HERE DISCUSSING THE DEMOCRACY BACKSLIDING.

THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T MATCH, RIGHT?

SO, WHAT WE SHOULD EXPECT IS A MEXICO THAT PUSHES THE AGENDA, THAT SHEINBAUM, YOU KNOW, THAT SHE WANTS, THE IDEA THAT MADE HER WIN, RIGHT?

AND WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE CHECKS AND BALANCES, DEFINITELY, THERE IS A CONCERN ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?

AND WE NEED TO BE -- KEEP OBSERVING MEXICAN DEMOCRACY, BUT RIGHT NOW, I FEEL WE ARE IN SAFE TERRITORY.

>> NO DOUBT A LANDSLIDE VICTORY, THE PARTY WINNING UP TO 61% OF THE VOTE, AND A REMINDER, THE FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT IN MEXICO'S HISTORY, AND IT'S A RATHER YOUNG DEMOCRATIC HISTORY, AS WELL, BUT AS YOU SAID, WE WILL BE WATCHING THIS CLOSELY.

VIRI RIOS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, MEXICO'S ELECTIONS WERE AN ENDORSEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT, IN SOUTH AFRICA, IT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT STORY.

IN A RESULT THAT COULD DRAMATICALLY SHIFT THE COUNTRY'S FUTURE, THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS LOST ITS MAJORITY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE NELSON MANDELA SWEPT TO POWER 30 YEARS AGO.

WHILE THE ANC STILL WON 40% OF THE VOTE, THEY WILL NOW HAVE TO SHARE POWER.

IT IS A DAMNING INDICTMENT OF A PARTY BY VOTERS WHO ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY AND ANGERED BY ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION AND VIOLENCE.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS TESSA DOOMS, FROM RIVONIA CIRCLE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THIS ISN'T A SHOCK, GIVEN THE BUILDUP FROM THE POLLING THAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

NONETHELESS, ONCE IT IS OFFICIAL, IT IS QUITE JARRING TO SEE SUCH A REVERSAL FOR THIS PARTY, THE ANC PARTY, ITS VOTE SHARE DROPPED FROM 58% TO 40%, THE ANC HELD NEARLY 70% VOTE SHARE AT THE HEIGHT OF ITS POPULARITY IN 2004.

WALK US THROUGH THE MOOD IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, AS MUCH AS THE POLLS HAVE PREDICTED A DROP IN THE ANC SUPPORT BELOW 50%, VERY FEW POLLS WENT AS FAR AS GOING 40%, AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE DIDN'T SEE HOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN, BECAUSE THE BIG FACTOR IN THIS ELECTION THAT HAS COME TO BEAR IS THE RE-ENTRANCE INTO THE POLITICAL SPACE OF FORMER PRESIDENT JACOB ZUMA AND THE PARTY, WHICH IS A BREAKAWAY PARTY, ONCE AGAIN, AS WE SAW IN 2009, WITH THE COPE PARTY, AND THEN IN 2014 WITH THE EFF, A BREAKAWAY PARTY FROM THE ANC, THAT HAS SURPASSED EVERYBODY'S EXPECTATIONS IN TERMS OF WHAT IT WAS ABLE TO DO, GARNERING IN ITS FIRST ELECTION, 14% OF THE VOTE, AFTER ONLY EXISTING FUR FIVE MONTHS.

AND SO WHY PEOPLE MAY HAVE PREDICTED BECAUSE OF THE GENERAL DECLINE IN TRUST, GENERALLY IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND POLITICIANS, BUT PARTICULARLY IN THE DELIVERY OF THE ANC, I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD HAVE PREDICTED THE WAYS IN WHICH IT WOULD HAPPEN, WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY AN ANC VERSUS ANC BATTLE IN A VERY DIFFERENT FORM.

>> YEAH, THESE TWO FORMER RIVALS, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE ZUMA FACTOR HERE AND THE SURPRISING 14%, AS YOU SAID, SHARE, THAT HIS PARTY HAS GARNERED?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, IT SPEAKS TO WHAT LOOKS TO WITH A 15 TO 20 FACTIONAL BATTLE WITHIN THE ANC THAT HAS BEEN BREWING FOR A LONG TIME.

FORMER PRESIDENT JACOB ZUMA WAS FORCED TO RESIGN IN 2018, A YEAR BEFORE HIS TERM HAD ENDED, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE MANY WAYS FOR HIM TO RE-ENTER INTO POLITICAL RELEVANCE, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS TWO FACTORS, BASED ON THE KIND OF SHAPE THAT THE PARTY HAS COME UP WITH.

ONE IS THAT PRESIDENT JACOB ZUMA HAS SAID THIS IS NOT A NEW PARTY THAT IS AWAY FROM THE ANC, BUT A PARTY THAT IS MEANT TO TRY TO RESTORE THE ANC TO ITS FORMER GLORY, PAINTING THE CURRENT ANC AS NOT BEING ALIGNED WITH THE HISTORY OF THE PARTY, AND SO, TAKING ON THE NAME IS ACTUALLY TO DOUBLE DOWN ON AN ANC-NESS OF THIS NEW VEHICLE.

BUT ALSO, I THINK THE SENTIMENT HAS WIDELY BEEN THAT PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THIS AS A PROTEST VOTE IN MANY CASES.

I THINK THE ANC IS OFTEN SEEN OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS A DECLINE IN ITS VOTER TURNOUT.

VOTERS THAT ARE DISILLUSIONED AFTER 30 YEARS, DECIDING TO STAY AT HOME AND NOT VOTE.

AND I THINK PART OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH THE MK PARTY IS CERTAINLY THE USE OF A VOTE IN ORDER TO SEND A SIGNAL TO THE ANC OF THE LEVEL UNHAPPINESS, NOT ONLY IN THE COUNTRY IN GENERAL, BUT WITHIN IS RANKS AND PEOPLE THAT HAVE SUPPORTED IT OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS.

>> YEAH, AND THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID, QUOTE, OUR PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN, HE WENT ON TO SAY THAT, WE HAVE HEARD THE VOICES OF OUR PEOPLE, WE MUST RESPECT THEIR WISHES, AND HE CALLED IT A VICTORY FOR DEMOCRACY.

THROUGHOUT THIS CAMPAIGN, THERE WAS LITTLE THAT HE HAD TO TOUT, OTHER THAN NANC 'S RICH HISTORY.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HIS SUPPORT AS PARTY LEADER GOING FORWARD?

>> WELL, I THINK THE PRESIDENT AND THE ANC AT LARGE HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, VERY GOOD ABOUT THE WAY THAT THEY'VE HANDLED THIS LOSS.

IT HAS NOT BEEN -- THE RHETORIC HAS NOT BEEN ONE THAT SPEAKS ILL OF THE RESULT, EVEN IN THE CLIMATE WHERE THERE HASN'T BEEN KIND OF JUST WIDESPREAD SUPPORT FOR THE WAY IN WHICH THIS ELECTION WENT DOWN, BUT I THINK THEY'VE SHOWN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE MAG UNANIMOUS UNANIMOUS MAG UNANIMOUS IN THIS LOSS.

THEY HAVE TO NEGOTIATE NOW HOW THEY FORM A GOVERNMENT AS STILL THE LARGEST PARTY BY AT LEAST 10% FROM WHERE -- 20%, BETWEEN THEMSELVES AND THE NEXT PARTY, WHICH IS THE DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE.

I THINK THE ANC LEADER, WHO WOULD ASSUME HE WAS COMING INTO HIS SECOND TERM, NOW FACES NEGOTIATIONS, COALITION NEGOTIATIONS, THAT MAY INCLUDE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE ANC SHOULD CONTINUE WITH HIM AS PRESIDENT, IN LIGHT OF OTHER PARTIES THAT MAY NOT WANT TO WORK WITH HIM.

SO, IT'S NOT A FOREGONE CONCLUSION THAT THE PRESIDENT WILL CONTINUE INTO A SECOND TERM, EVEN IF THE ANC DOES HAVE A MAJORITY IN NIKO LIGS.

I THINK THIS WEAKNESS HIS POSITION, BUT THE ANC HAS MANY THINGS TO CONSIDER, BOTH FOR THE STABILITY OF THE COUNTRY AT LARGE, BUT ALSO, FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING A GOVERNMENT THAT STILL HOLDS TO THE VALUES THAT THE ANC HAS LONG SAID THAT IT SERVES.

>> AND HOWEVER THIS GOVERNMENT IS FORMED, THERE'S A MOUNTAIN OF FACTORS THEY'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH.

THE ISSUES THAT REALLY DOOMED THE PARTY, AND THAT IS UNEMPLOYMENT, I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT ONE STATISTIC, 61% OF YOUTH ARE UNEMPLOYED.

64% OF BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS ARE LIVING IN POVERTY, VERSUS 1% OF WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS.

42% OF WORKING AGE SOUTH AFRICANS ARE UNEMPLOYED.

THE GDP HAS SHRUNK IN FOUR OF THE PAST TEN YEARS.

FREQUENT ELECTRICAL BLACKOUTS.

INEQUALITY HAS ONLY GOTTEN WORSE.

THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICH AND THE POOR IN SOUTH AFRICA IS, BY SOME MEASURES, WORSE THAN IT WAS IN 1994.

HOW IS THIS NEW GOVERNMENT, HOWEVER IT IS FORMED, GOING TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THESE VERY, VERY SERIOUS AND PRESSING ISSUES?

>> YES, I THINK THAT THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE -- THE PARTS OF THIS ELECTION THAT'S BEEN REALLY HARD TO GRAPPLE WITH, GIVEN ALL THOSE MULTIPLE CRISES.

THE ISSUES JUST WEREN'T THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THIS ELECTION.

THIS ELECTION, UNFORTUNATELY, VEERED INTO A PALACE POLITICS OF SORTS, A LOT OF POLITICS AROUND PERSONALITY, AROUND IDENTITY OR AROUND LONGSTANDING POLITICAL IN-FIGHTING, AND A POSTURING OF OUR POLITICS, RATHER THAN A SOLVING OF THE ISSUES AT THE CORE OF THIS ELECTION, AND I THINK THAT MAY HAVE BEEN WHY WE HAVE SEEN A LOWER VOTER TURNOUT THAN WE'VE EVER SEEN BEFORE IN SOUTH AFRICA, DIPPING BELOW 60%.

SOUTH AFRICANS WON'T THE ISSUE TO BE ADDRESSED AND HAVE GOTTEN TO A POINT WHERE GIVING OVER POWER TO POLITICIANS IS REALLY DISEMPOWERING TO PEOPLE.

THE IDEA THAT A DEMOCRACY THAT TICKS SO MANY OF THE BOXES OF BEING AN EFFECTIVE DEMOCRACY MUST START GIVING A DIVIDEND OF DEVELOPMENT IN SOUTH AFRICA, OTHERWISE PEOPLE WON'T JUST LOSE FAITH IN A PARTY, THEY WILL LOSE FAITH IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROJECT.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING FREEDOM AND THE RIGHT TO VOTE IF IT DOESN'T RESULT IN WATER, SANITATION, AND JOBS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE WHO UNDER THE AGE OF 30 HAS ONLY EVER LIVED IN A DEMOCRACY.

THE POLITICIANS THAT EMERGE FROM THIS MUST PUT THAT AT THE CENTER OF THEIR GOVERNANCE.

THE ISSUES MUST MATTER, NOT THE POLITICIANS.

>> SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT YOU MAKE, AS THE WHOLE WORLD HAS BEEN WATCHING CLOSELY TO THIS ELECTION, SUCH AN IMPORTANT COUNTRY, AS WELL, AFRICA, THE CONTINENT'S LARGEST ECONOMY, A REAL GLOBAL PLAYER.

THIS ELECTION COULD HAVE WIDE RAMIFICATIONS IN TERMS OF WHATEVER THIS COALITION GOVERNMENT ENDS UP LOOKING LIKE AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ABLE TO START ADDRESSING THESE VERY PRESSING ISSUES.

TESSA DOOMS, PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR RIVONIA CIRCLE, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>>> IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS NOW SINCE AMERICA'S WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN, ENABLING THE TALIBAN'S RETURN TO POWER.

CONFINED TO THEIR HOMES, WOMEN HAVE NO JOBS OR EDUCATION.

THE U.N. HAVE CALLED THE SITUATION A GENDER APARTHEID.

BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST ASNE SEIERSTAD'S NEW BOOK IS CALLED "THE AFGHANS."

SHE JOINS ME NOW LIVE FROM OSLO.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE WE GET TO THIS REALLY IMPORTANT AND COMPELLING BOOK, I WANT TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HAVING SPENT TIME IN AFGHANISTAN, FOLLOWING THE U.S., THE MESSY WITHDRAWAL.

YOU WENT BACK AFTER 20 YEARS OF NOT HAVING BEEN IN THE COUNTRY IN 2022, TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW THERE, AND REFLECT UPON THAT, GIVEN THE FACT THAT TWO DECADES HAD GONE BY SINCE YOUR LAST VISIT.

>> IT WAS A DEPRESSED CITY THAT I LANDED IN IN KABUL, WHERE IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S TALIBAN RULING, WITH THEIR STICKS AND THEIR WHIPS, AND IT'S DEFINITELY NO -- THERE ARE WOMEN IN THE STREETS, BUT THEY ARE COVERED, THEY GO QUICKLY TO WHERE THEY ARE HEADED, AND THEN QUICKLY BACK HOME, AND THEN THERE'S ALSO LOTS OF WOMEN WHO DON'T LEAVE THEIR HOUSES AT ALL.

SO, IT'S DEFINITELY A TRAGEDY, WHAT HAS HAPPENED AFTER TWO DECADES OF WESTERN PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN, THAT IT CAME TO THIS.

>> AND WHAT YOU'RE ABLE TO CAPTURE ARE THE REAL-LIFE RAMIFICATIONS THAT THIS HAS ON THREE VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAT YOU CAPTURE IN THIS BOOK, AND YOU FOCUS ON IN "THE AFGHANS."

THESE ARE BASED ON REAL AFGHANS THAT YOU SPENT TIME WITH.

LET'S START WITH ARIANA.

SHE WAS IN HER LAST YEAR OF LAW SCHOOL IN 2022, ALL OF THAT, OBVIOUSLY, CHANGED OVERNIGHT FOR HER.

TALK ABOUT THE WOMAN THAT SHE IS, WHO SHE AS SPIRED TO BE, AND HOW POLITICS AND JUST AN UNFORTUNATE TIMING FOR HER, CHANGED HER LIFE FOREVER.

>> WELL, ARIANA IS ONE OF THOSE YOUNG WOMEN THAT IS -- WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS THE MOST, BECAUSE THESE ARE THE WOMEN WHO HAD, OR THE YOUNG GIRLS, WHO HAD GOOD EDUCATION, THAT WERE ABLE TO LEARN ENGLISH, AND SHE WANTED TO FULFILL HER DREAM TO BECOME A JUDGE, A FEMALE JUDGE IN AFGHANISTAN, AND THEN THE TALIBAN CAME JUST AS SHE HAD ONE SEMESTER LEFT OF HER FIRST PART OF THAT DEGREE.

AND SHE'S ONE OF THOSE WHO LOVED AMERICA, SHE LOVED EVERYTHING AMERICAN.

SHE WOULD WATCH NETFLIX, SHE WOULD LISTEN TO BEYONCE AND JUSTIN BIEBER, AND SHE WOULD SEE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE SAME SERIALS ON TV THAT MY TEENAGE DAUGHTER WOULD DO.

SO, HER STORY IS HARD TO GO BY, BECAUSE IT -- WE CAN'T JUST SAY THAT, OH, YOU KNOW, AFGHANISTAN, THAT'S HOW -- THEY'RE USED TO IT, OR THEY HAVE DIFFERENT AMBITIONS IN LIFE, LIKE -- WHEN I MET ARIANA, I JUST MET SOMEONE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN MY DAUGHTER'S FRIEND, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST HAD BEEN TOLD THAT HER LIFE, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING, BUT THAT WAS UNTIL THE TALIBAN CAME, AND WHAT SHE SAYS IS THAT HER PARENTS, WHO USED TO BE LIBERAL, LET HER DO ALL THIS EDUCATION, WHEN THE TALIBAN ARRIVED, THEY WERE TALIBANIZED, SHE SAID, MEANING THAT THEY SUDDENLY RULED THE FAMILY AS THE TALIBAN DID, AND FOR THAT MATTER, WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE YOUNG GIRLS IS THAT THEY ARE FORCED INTO MARRIAGES THAT MANY OF THEM DO NOT WANT.

>> YEAH, TO GO FROM A FINAL YEAR IN LAW SCHOOL TO A FORCED MARRIAGE AFTER PARENTS ARE SUDDENLY TALIBANIZED, AS YOU NOTE, AND DESCRIBE.

I KNOW YOU STILL STAY IN TOUCH WITH ARIANA.

HOW IS SHE DOING NOW?

SOME OF THE FUNDS FROM THIS BOOK, YOU NOTE, ARE HELPING HER TO BUY A FLAT.

>> YEAH, I -- I BOUGHT HER A FLAT AND I HELP HER TO -- SHE HAS A SECRET SCHOOL.

NOBODY KNOWS WHO SHE IS, SO I CAN SAY THIS, SHE HAS A SECRET SCHOOL IN THE BASEMENT, SO, THIS IS TO HELP THE NEIGHBORHOOD GIRLS, BECAUSE AFTER 12 YEARS OLD, THEY CAN NO LONGER GO TO SCHOOL.

SO, SHE AND HER MOTHER, WHO USED TO BE A TEACHER, HAVE THIS ALL DAY LONG, A SCHOOL THAT, YOU KNOW, THROUGH TEACHERS WHO ALSO LOST THEIR JOBS, THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, ON DIFFERENT SHIFTS, TO GET AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OF THESE GIRLS GOING TO SCHOOL, AND WHEN I VISITED THE SCHOOL, AND I TALKED TO THOSE GIRLS, IT WAS NOT ONE OF THEM WHO WAS ABLE TO TELL HER STORY WITHOUT CRYING, BECAUSE I REALIZED THEY NEVER REALLY PUT THEIR STORIES INTO WORDS, BUT WHEN YOU TAKE SCHOOL AWAY FROM AN AFGHAN GIRL, THERE'S NOTHING LEFT.

IT'S NOT THAT SHE HAS ANY OTHER ACTIVITIES.

SHE MAY NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO LEAVE HER HOUSE, BECAUSE SHE WAS ABLE TO LEAVE IT BECAUSE SHE HAD A SCHOOL TO GO TO.

BECAUSE AFGHAN GIRL CANNOT JUST WANDER AROUND IN THE STREETS, THAT'S NOT GOOD.

SO, THAT IS SOMETHING SHE SAYS MAKES LIFE WORTH LIVING, TO HAVE THAT SCHOOL, BECAUSE FOR HER, IT'S LIKE EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION WAS EVERYTHING, AND SHE DIDN'T WANT A BABY, SHE DIDN'T WANT A HUSBAND.

YOU KNOW, SHE WAS REALLY EARLY IN HER 20s, SO SOME DAYS SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LIVE, AND WE KNOW THERE'S A HIGH RISE IN SUICIDE IN AFGHANISTAN, I DON'T THINK SHE IS A CANDIDATE FOR THAT, BUT IT'S JUST LIKE SHE DOESN'T SEE THE FUTURE.

>> YEAH.

AND GOOD ON YOU, I MEAN, IT SPEAKS VOLUMES, THE FACT THAT THESE ARE NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO YOU CHRONICLE, BUT YOU INVEST IN, LITERALLY, AND STAY IN TOUCH WITH.

I WANT TO TURN NOW TO JAMILA, BECAUSE FROM ARIANA, WHO AT LEAST AT ONE POINT HAD PARENTS WHO MAY HAVE BEEN OUTLIERS WHO SUPPORTED HER QUEST FOR EDUCATION, FOR FREEDOM, FOR DOING WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO ABOVE GETTING MARRIED AT AN EARLY AGE, YOU TALK TO US ABOUT JAMILA, WHO, DESPITE THE ODDS OF PRESSURE FROM HER FAMILY TO NOT GO TO SCHOOL, TO ONLY GET MARRIED AND START A FAMILY YOUNG, SHE DID THE OPPOSITE.

AND SHE ULTIMATELY HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY, AS WELL.

TALK TO US ABOUT HER.

>> JAMILA IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST WOMEN I'VE EVER MET.

SHE'S A TRUE REVOLUTIONARY, AND SHE WAS BORN INTO VERY CONSERVATIVE FAMILY, BACK IN 1976, SO, SHE'S THE OLDEST IN THE BOOK.

AND SHE, ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THE BOOK, SHE'S ABOUT TO DIE OF A VERY HIGH FEVER, AND ON THE NEXT PAGE, WE REALIZE IT WAS POLIO, SO, HER LEG BECOMS LAME AND PARALYZED, AND THAT IS WHAT SHE WOULD LATER TELL ME, THAT IS WHAT SHOWS HER PATH, HER COURSE, BECAUSE IN HER FAMILY, THE SISTERS, OR, THE YOUNG GIRLS, WERE A COMMODITY.

THEY WERE SOLD OR TRADED IN MARRIAGE, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE WAS PARALYZED -- WITH ONE LEG PARALYZED, SHE COULDN'T BE TRADED IN MARRIAGE, SO, FOR THAT REASON, SHE WAS -- THROUGH HER STRUGGLES, SHE WAS ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL, AND THEN ENDING UP AS THE MINISTER, AS A DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE GOVERNMENT IN THE LATE GOVERNMENT.

THAT SHE LEFT BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL OF CORRUPTION IN THAT GOVERNMENT, BUT AS THE TALIBAN CAME TO POWER, SHE HAD TO FLEE, BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING WITH JAMILA IS THAT SHE KEEPS ON DOING HER WORK.

NOW SHE'S IN CANADA, BUT BECAUSE IT'S EDUCATION, AND IT'S ALSO PARTICIPATION IN SOCIETY FOR WOMEN, FOR DISABLED, FOR DIFFERENT GROUPS, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

AND IN -- SHE'S ALSO -- SHE CALLS HERSELF AN ISLAMIC FEMINIST, AND FOR HER, IF -- ACCORDING TO HER IF YOU READ THE KORAN IN THE RIGHT WAY, IT IS A TEXT THAT SPEAKS TO MEN AND WOMEN EQUALLY, ON THE FIRST WORD OF THE KORAN IS READ, AND AS SHE SAID, GOD TELLS US ALL TO READ, AND TO LEARN AND SEEK KNOWLEDGE, NOT JUST MEN.

SO, SHE USES ISLAM AGAINST THE TALIBAN, WHO SHE WOULD SAY ABUSES ISLAM.

>> YEAH, AS SHE POINTS, IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO READ THE KORAN THE RIGHT WAY.

AND YOU NOTE THAT JAMILA LEFT AFGHANISTAN JUST 11 DAYS AFTER THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER AGAIN IN 2021 WITH HER HUSBAND AND THREE CHILDREN.

SO, THESE ARE TWO SYMPATHETIC WOMEN WHO YOU CHRONICLE, WHO YOU INTRODUCE US TO AS READERS.

AND THEN, THERE'S A THIRD CHARACTER, A BIT MORE COMPLEX, TO SAY THE LEAST, BASHIR.

HE IS A TALIBAN COMMANDER WHO ALLOWED YOU TO OBSERVE HIS LIFE.

HE HAD BEEN BUILDING BOMBS SINCE THE AGE OF 16.

AT ONE POINT, HE ACKNOWLEDGED THROUGH HALF JOKE, I GUESS, THAT, IF YOU HAD MET A YEAR PRIOR, HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE ABDUCTED OR KILLED YOU.

WHAT MADE YOU SPEND TIME AND WRITE ABOUT HIM?

>> WELL, I STARTED WITH JAMILA, BECAUSE SHE FIRST CAME TO NORWAY BEFORE SHE WENT TO CANADA.

AND WHEN I CHRONICLED HER STORY, I REALIZED, I NEED TO GO TO AFGHANISTAN AND FIND HER ADVERSARY.

TO FIND SOMEONE AT HER LEVEL, YOU KNOW, SHE HAD BEEN A DEPUTY MINISTER, SO, I WAS LOOKING IN THE HIGH ECHELON OF POWER OF THE TALIBAN, AND FOUND OUT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE -- THE BIGGEST COUNCIL, THEY DON'T SPEED, BUT TALIBAN IS THE MILITARY MOVEMENT, SO, I WENT TO THE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, MILITARY BASES AND SO ON, AND THERE, I FOUND BASHIR.

AND HE WAS REALLY INTERESTING IN THE WAY THAT HE WAS VERY CURIOUS, HE WAS, AS OPPOSED TO MOST OF THE MEN I'VE MET WHO WERE ANSWERING QUESTIONS, BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY ENGAGE.

HE WAS ALSO VERY INTERESTED IN WHY I HAD COME, WHAT I WANTED TO WRITE, WHY THE TALIBAN, WHY I COVERED ALL THOSE WARS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, SO HE WAS SOMEONE I COULD REALLY ENGAGE WITH, AND THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

AND I ASKED HIM VERY EARLY, WE TOTALLY BAN IS A MOVEMENT, BUT WE DON'T KNOW YOU AS PRIVATE PEOPLE, SO, I SAID, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE BOOK, I NEED TO SEE YOUR FAMILY, AND HE TOOK ME HOME TO HIS THREE WIVES.

TWO REAL WIVES, AND ONE HE WAS JUST ENGAGED TO, HIS MOTHER, HIS, YOU KNOW, HIS CHILDREN, THE CHILDREN OF HIS DECEASED BROTHERS, AND THEY HAD TAKEN OVER THIS HUGE HOUSE FROM THE FORMER REGIME, SO, AS FAR AS THE WAR GOES TO THEM NOW, AND HE DIDN'T LET HIS CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOL, NONE OF THEM, SO, HE MADE THIS KORAN SCHOOL ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF HIS HOUSE, WHERE THE ONLY KNOWLEDGE THAT THE CHILDREN NEEDED WERE ISLAMIC KNOWLEDGE AND THE KORAN, AND THAT WAS DONE THROUGH BEATING AND WHIPPING FROM THE YEAR OF 4 IN THAT SCHOOL.

AND THIS WAS -- THEY WERE PROUD ABOUT THIS.

SO, THIS IS THE NEW GENERATION, AND IT WILL -- YOU KNOW, IT MADE ME REALLY SCARED TO SEE HOW THE NEW TALIBAN CHILDREN ARE GROWING UP, AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

LIKE, ONE OF THEM WAS -- WHEN HE HAD WEAPONS TRAINING, HE WAS 12 AND HE WAS POINTING A GUN AT ME AND TALKED ABOUT HOW HIS BLOOD WAS BURNING BECAUSE IF HE SHOT AN INFIDEL, HE WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO PARADISE.

HE WAS STOPPED BY THE GROWNUPS, BUT I WAS THINKING, THE REALLY SCARY ONES ARE THE ONES THAT GROW UP TODAY.

>> YEAH, REALLY EYE-OPENING AND JARRING TO HEAR THOSE DETAILS, BUT SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE ACCESS LIKE YOU DID TO PRODUCE US TO THESE THREE PEOPLE FOREVER CHANGED, THREE LIVES FOREVER CHANGED, SCARRED BY A VERY BLOODY AND DARK CHAPTER IN U.S. HISTORY, ONE COULD NOTE.

ASNE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>>> WELL, NEXT, TO "THE SITUATION ROOM."

THE ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, ARE GENERATIONS OF PRESIDENTS HAVE SAT WITH THEIR ADVISERS TO DEAL WITH ALL KINDS OF CRISES.

FROM IMPORTANT MILLION TEAR CALLS TO THE AFTER MATH OF NATURAL DISASTERS.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, TV HOST AND FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS DETAILS THE COUNTLESS DILEMMAS THE NATION'S PAST LEADERS HAVE RECKONED WITH IN THAT SPACE.

AND HE JOINED WALTER ISAACSON TO RECOUNT SOME OF THOSE STORIES.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

AND GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

IT'S A TREAT.

MY FIRST TIME ON THE SHOW.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS BOOK, "THE SITUATION ROOM," IS ACTUALLY A BOOK ABOUT HOW DECISIONS ARE MADE IN TIMES OF CRISIS.

HOW PEOPLE DO IT RIGHT, HOW THEY DO IT WRONG, HOW THEY CAN, YOU KNOW, CHALLENGE AND SHARE INFORMATION.

AND YET, YOU DID IT THROUGH THE CONCEPT OF A ROOM.

WHY DID YOU PICK THE SITUATION ROOM AS THE FRAMING DEVICE FOR THIS BOOK?

>> BECAUSE THE SITUATION ROOM IS THE NERVE CENTER OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

A PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE THESE DUTY OFFICERS COMING FROM ALL ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT, WHO FOR 24 HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, TRACK EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING ALL AROUND THE WORLD, IN ORDER TO KEEP THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE PRESIDENT AND TOP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISERS INFORMED.

IT IS ALSO THAT ROOM WHERE THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TOP ADVISERS MEET TO MAKE THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL NATIONAL SECURITY DECISIONS, AND WHERE THEIR DEPUTIES MEET TO TRY TO FRAME THE OPTIONS BEFORE THEY GET TO THAT POINT.

SO, IT REALLY IS THE HEART OF NATIONAL SECURITY DECISION-MAKING AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHAT HELPED ME FRAME -- HOW TO APPROACH THE BOOK, WAS SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM AMBASSADOR DOUG LUTE, WHO SERVED FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA AND PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, CHIEFLY ON AFGHANISTAN, HE SAID, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE SITUATION ROOM, IT'S REALLY THREE THINGS.

THE THREE Ps.

IT'S A PLACE, THE ROOM.

IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE.

AND IT'S THE PROCESS BY WHICH THE PRINCIPLES REACH THESE DECISIONS.

AND I TRIED TO USE THAT FRAME AS WE LOOKED AT EACH PRESIDENT.

>> YOU GOT MANY CHANCES, WHEN YOU WORKED FOR PRESIDENT CLINTON, TO GO SEE THE ROOM, AND IN THE BOOK, YOU SAID, YOU DON'T EVEN REMEMBER YOUR FIRST TIME IN THE SITUATION ROOM.

AND THAT'S PARTLY BECAUSE, I REMEMBER, TOO, WHEN YOU SAW IT, LIKE, THIS IS ALL IT IS?

YOU'D THINK IT'S LIKE A DR. STRANGELOVE MOVIE.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, FOR THE LONGEST TIME, IT WAS NOT MUCH TO LOOK AT AT ALL.

JOHN F. KENNEDY, WHO INSISTED THE ROOM BE BUILT AFTER THE BAY OF PIGS DISASTER, THEY BUILT IT VERY QUICKLY, $30,000, TWO WEEKS, HE WENT DOWN THERE ONCE, SAID IT LOOKED LIKE A PIG PEN AND DIDN'T GO BACK.

HE WOULD TAKE THE INFORMATION, WOULDN'T GO DOWN THERE.

AND FOR THE LONGEST TIME, CERTAINLY THROUGH MY TIME IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, IT WAS A PRETTY UNREMARKABLE PHYSICAL SPACE.

JUST, YOU KNOW, LIKE -- I WOULD SAY IT LOOKED LIKE A CONFERENCE ROOM IN THE POCONOS.

NOT PARTICULARLY IMPRESSIVE.

NOT PARTICULARLY HIGH TECH.

CERTAINLY BEHIND THE PRIVATE SECTOR FOR THE LONGEST PERIOD OF TIME.

THAT HAS CHANGED NOW.

I WAS ABLE TO GO BACK TO THE SITUATION ROOM LAST AUGUST, JUST BEFORE THE NEW ROOM WAS UNVEILED TO THE WORLD, AND NOW IT DOES LOOK LIKE "24" OR PICK YOUR MOVIE.

IT'S SUPER HIGH TEXT, LUXE, MARBLE, SCREENS EVERYWHERE.

>> AND IT MEETS NOW WHAT YOU WOULD IMAGINE IN YOUR MIND'S EYE.

>> YOU SAY THAT IT WAS BUILT AFTER THE BAY OF PIGS, KENNEDY ORDERED IT UP, BUT HE NEVER WENT THERE, AS YOU MENTIONED.

LYNDON JOHNSON WAS THERE ALL THE TIME.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE.

>> BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM WAS NIGHT AND DAY.

JOHNSON MOVED HIS FAVORITE CHAIR FROM THE OVL OFFICE DOWN INTO THE SITUATION ROOM.

HE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH SITUATION ROOM DUTY OFFICERS ALL THROUGH 1965, LOOKING ALL THROUGH THE NIGHT, LOOKING FOR ANY SCRAPS OF INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN VIETNAM, AND WE INCLUDE THOSE, THE TAPES OF SEVERAL OF THOSE PHONE CALLS IN THE AUDIO BOOK.

BUT YOU KNOW, HE WAS OBSESSED, AND YOU KNOW THIS FROM HIS TIME IN THE SENATE, WITH USING THE TELEPHONE, SCOOPING UP INFORMATION IN A WAY.

THAT WAS HIS TOOL OF POWER.

THAT WAS HIS IMPLEMENT OF CHOICE.

IT DIDN'T WORK FOR HIM IN VIETNAM.

>> WHAT'S HAPPENING IN VIETNAM THIS MORNING?

>> MR. PRESIDENT, NOTHING SINCE THE REPORT WE SENT UP TO YOU AT 11:00 LAST NIGHT, SIR.

WE DO HAVE SOME REPORTS ON ROLLING THUNDER, WE HAVE SOME BUILDINGS DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

BUT OTHERWISE, IT'S BEEN FAIRLY QUIET.

>> THAT 172nd OUTFIT NEVER DID GET INTO ACTION?

>> NO, SIR, THEY HAVEN'T.

IT'S BEEN QUIET IN THAT AREA ALL NIGHT, SIR.

>> NO MATTER HOW MUCH INFORMATION HE GOT ABOUT CASUALTIES WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN PARTICULAR BATTLES, THAT WASN'T GOING TO SOLVE THE STRATEGIC PROBLEM HE HAD.

HE WAS TRAPPED, AND HE KNEW IT.

SO, WHILE KENNEDY CREATED THE SITUATION ROOM, BECAUSE HE BELIEVED THAT INFORMATION WAS POWER, JOHNSON, WE LEARNED FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF JOHNSON THAT INFORMATION, ALL THE INFORMATION IN THE WORLD, DOESN'T NECESSARILY GIVE YOU THE INSIGHT YOU NEED TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.

>> YOU KNOW, NIXON DIDN'T USE THE ROOM THAT MUCH, BUT HE HAD A PHRASE THAT SORT OF EXPLAINED IT, I THINK THERE'S A KERNEL OF TRUTH TO IT.

HE SAID LYNDON JOHNSON SUCCUMBED TO THE SITUATION ROOM SYNDROME WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE?

>> WELL, THAT PHRASE ACTUALLY COMES FROM HIS ALTER EGO AT THE TIME, HENRY KISSINGER, YOU HAVE WRITTEN SO MUCH ABOUT HENRY KISSINGER, AND HE SAYS, HIS DEFINITION OF THAT SYNDROME WAS THE ILLUSION THAT YOU CAN SOMEHOW CONTROL THE WORLD FROM THIS WINDOWLESS ROOM IN THE BASEMENT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

NOW, POLICY MAKERS, INCLUDING HENRY KISSINGER, HAVE TO ACT AS IF THEY CAN CONTROL THE WORLD FROM THAT ROOM, BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW AT THE SAME TIME THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD MAY HAVE -- MAY HAVE OTHER PLANS.

I THINK YOU COULD ALMOST ARGUE THAT NIXON AND KISSINGER OVERREACTED TO JOHNSON'S OBSESSION WITH THE SITUATION ROOM AND WENT VERY MUCH IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, BUT YOU KNOW, THE EPISODE I WROTE MOST ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THAT TIME DURING THE FIRST WAR IN OCTOBER 1973, WHEN NIXON WAS SO OUT OF COMMISSION, DRINKING SCOTCH UP IN THE OLD EXECUTIVE OFFICE BUILDING, THAT KISSINGER MANAGED THE CRISIS ON HIS OWN, AND IN A REMARKABLE MOVE, BASICALLY ON HIS OWN, ORDERED THE UNITED STATES NUCLEAR ALERT UP TO DEFCON 3, WHICH HAD ONLY BEEN DONE ONCE BEFORE, BECAUSE OF FEAR THAT THE SOVIETS WERE TRYING TO EXPLOIT THAT WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> ONE OF THE COOLEST SCENES IN YOUR BOOK, STRANGEST, MAYBE, IS WHEN JIMMY CARTER IS GETTING A BRIEFING, I THINK ROSLYN IS THERE WITH HIM, ON PARANORMAL, PARAPSYCHOLOGY, SORT OF ESP THINGS, BUT SOMETHING WEIRD HAPPENS.

HE PUTS A SLIP OF PAPER AND HANDS IT TO SOMEBODY AND SAYS, THE HOSTAGES.

EXPLAIN THAT SCENE.

>> THIS SCENE WAS SPARKED BY A ONE LINE IN JIMMY CARTER'S DIARY THAT I CAME UPON, AS I WAS DOING THE PRELIMINARY RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK, IT WAS MAY 8th, 1980.

HAD A MEETING IN THE SITUATION ROOM ON PARAPSYCHOLOGY, I SAW THAT IN THE SITUATION ROOM AND WANTED TO LEARN AND AWFUL LOT MORE.

IT WAS VERY HARD.

HADN'T BEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ABOUT IT.

WE WENT TO THE PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARIES, WE COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING.

FINALLY, WE CAME UPON A MAN NAMED JAKE STEWART, WHO WAS JIMMY CARTER'S NAVAL AIDE AT THE TIME, HE WAS ALWAYS THE AIDE WHO HAD BECOME THE EXPERT ON SOMETHING THAT WAS CALLED OPERATION GRILL FLAME.

YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS, IN THE 1970s AND '80s, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT THROUGH THE CIA AND THE DIA, WAS SPENDING MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS HIRING PSYCHICS.

PEOPLE WHO WOULD SIT IN A DARK ROOM AND IMAGINE THE WORLD, THEY CALLED THEM REMOTE VIEWERS, IMAGINED THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

JAKE STEWART WAS THE EXPERT ON THIS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

BOTH JIMMY CARTER AND ROSLYN CARTER HAD BEEN ATTRACTED TO THE PARANORMAL, BUT OF COURSE, THE FACT ABOUT THAT MEETING WAS THE DATE, MAY 8th, 1980.

TWO WEEKS AFTER THE HELICOPTERS WENT DOWN IN THE DESERT, EFFECTIVELY ENDING THE CARTER PRESIDENCY.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE, SO, WAS LOOKING FOR ANYTHING THAT MIGHT HELP HIM FIND A WAY OUTSIDE OF THE HOSTAGE CRISIS, SO HE BROUGHT IN JAKE STEWART, ASKED FOR A BRIEFING ON IF THE SIGH ICKES COULD FIGURE OUT WHERE THE HOSTAGES MIGHT BE LOCATED AT ANY TIME.

JAKE STEWART WORKED ON IT, HE DID SAY THAT THEY HELPED FIND ONE OF THE HOSTAGES NAMED RICHARD QUEEN, WHO WAS SUFFERING FROM MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS, BUT ALL THE OTHERS WERE NOT RELEASED UNTIL INAUGURATION DAY WHEN RONALD REAGAN TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE, THE IRANIAN'S FINAL JAB AT JIMMY CARTER.

>> I GUESS THE MOST FAMOUS PICTURE OF THE OLD SITUATION ROOM IS THE DAY OF THE BIN LADEN RAID, EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THAT, THE WHITE HOUSE PHOTOGRAPHER, THEY ARE ALL SITTING AROUND THE TABLE IN THE SITUATION ROOM.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW THE SITUATION ROOM WAS ACTUALLY A PLAYER IN THIS, AND HOW YOU GOT THAT -- YOU RECONSTRUCTED THAT WHOLE SCENE.

>> WELL, THE KEY DECISION-MAKING MEETING WAS IN THE SITUATION ROOM, ON A THURSDAY BEFORE THE RAID, THAT WAS THE MEETING WHERE THE PRESIDENT CALLED IN ALL OF HIS TOP ADVISERS, THE PRINCIPLES, WHO EACH BROUGHT A PLUS ONE, A DEPUTY, INTO THE MEET, AS WELL.

AND AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD GONE THROUGH ALL THE INTELLIGENCE FIVE WAYS TO SUNDAY, THEY HAD A FINAL, YOU KNOW, ANALYSIS TESTING IT ONE MORE TIME, AND THEY REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT THERE WAS ABOUT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN A 40% TO 60% CHANCE THIS PACER, WE'VE SEEN IN THE COMPOUND, WAS ACTUALLY OSAMA BIN LADEN.

AS THE MEETING BEGAN, OBAMA SAID, LISTEN, NOT GOING TO GET MUCH BETTER THAN 50%.

WE HAVE TO MAKE THE DECISION BASED ON THAT KNOWLEDGE.

HE POLLED THE WHOLE ROOM.

ALMOST ALL OF THE PRINCIPLES FROM SECRETARY CLINTON THROUGH LEON PANETTA, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, OF COURSE, ADMIRAL McRAVEN, WERE FOR IT.

GATES WAS THE MOST RELUCTANT.

OF COURSE, HE WAS HAUNTED BY THE MEMORY OF JIMMY CARTER'S FAILED MISSION.

HE WAS THE DEPUTY TO STAN TURNER AT THE TIME, AND HE HAD ALWAYS REMEMBERED -- >> WHEN THE HELICOPTERS WENT DOWN IN THE DESERT.

>> EXACTLY.

>> IN THE IRAN DESERT.

>> HE WAS THE ONLY PRINCIPLE AT FIRST ADVOCATED GOING FOR A DRONE STRIKE INSTEAD.

THE PROBLEM WITH A DRONE STRIKE IS, YOU WOULD NEVER, ESPECIALLY IN THIS WORLD WHERE INFORMATION IS SO HARD FOR PEOPLE TO COME TOGETHER AND AGREE ON A SET OF FACTS, YOU WOULD NEVER BE 1,000% SURE IT WAS OSAMA BIN LADEN, THE PLACE WOULD JUST BE REDUCED TO RUBBLE.

SO, OBAMA POLLED THE ROOM.

HE ALSO POLLED -- THIS IS WHAT WAS UNUSUAL.

HE ASKED ALL OF THE PLUS ONES FOR THEIR OPINION, AS WELL.

POLLED THE ROOM ONE MORE TIME, AND THEN TOOK -- LEFT, SAID, I'LL GIVE YOU THE DECISION IN THE MORNING AND MADE IT OVERNIGHT.

IT WENT OFF ON SUNDAY.

THAT FAMOUS PICTURE ALMOST DIDN'T HAPPEN.

THAT ROOM IS ACTUALLY A LITTLE ANTI-ROOM OFF THE SITUATION ROOM AND IT WAS MEANT TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE MILITARY LEADERS WERE GOING TO BE IN CONTACT WITH ADMIRAL McRAVEN, BUT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THE PLACE WHERE EVERYBODY WAS GATHERING.

ONCE EVERYBODY REALIZED YOU COULD SEE THE RAID, EVERYBODY DRIFT INTO THE ROOM AND CREATED THAT INCREDIBLY CLOSE FEELING.

TOM DONALD, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, ASKED MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, A GUY NAMED GARY BRESNEHAN, GARY SAW, HE TOLD A WHITE LIE AT THIS POINT.

HE SAID, I CAN'T MOVE IT INTO THE OTHER ROOM.

HE -- NOW TELLS ME, HE SAID, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE, BUT I WAS JUST SO AFRAID TO TAKE ANY CHANCE THAT WE WOULD LOSE THE FEED IN THOSE FINAL MOMENTS, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.

AND THAT'S A GOOD THING, BECAUSE WE DID GET THAT INCREDIBLY ICONIC PHOTO.

IT'S A GOOD THING FOR GARY, AS WELL, BECAUSE HE WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE ROOM, SO, AFTER IT ALL WENT DOWN, HE GOT THE FIRST FIST BUMP FROM PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHICH WAS FITTING TRIBUTE TO ALL OF HIS WORK FOR SO MANY PRESIDENTS OVER SO MANY YEARS.

>> THE ODD SCENES IN THE SITUATION ROOM, A LOT OF THEM, ARE DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

AND HE DOESN'T SEEM TO EITHER CARE ABOUT THE PLACE, AS YOU CALL IT, THE SITUATION ROOM, OR THE PEOPLE OR THE PROCESS.

AND HE BARELY GOES IN AND LETS IT WORK,S PERSONALLY DURING COVID, WHEN THE ROOM WAS USED TO COORDINATE THE RESPONSE.

>> HE HARDLY EVER WENT THERE.

HIS REASONING WAS NOT UNLIKE THAT OF RICHARD NIXON.

IN SOME WAYS, THIS WAS NOT HIS PLACE.

AND HE WAS ACTUALLY VERY SUSPICIOUS OF THOSE WHO WORKED IN THE SITUATION ROOM, FAMOUSLY CALLED THOSE PEOPLE THE DEEP STATE.

HE DIDN'T USE IT THAT MUCH AT ALL.

AND DIDN'T DRAW THAT MUCH ON THE INFORMATION FROM THE SITUATION ROOM.

ONE OF THE ODD THINGS HE HAD SITUATION DUTY ROOM OFFICERS COLLECT WAS THE BANNERS FROM NEWS PROGRAMS.

NOT EVEN THE RECORDINGS, WHAT WAS BEING SAID, JUST THE BANNERS OF WHAT WAS GOING ON BELOW THE SCREEN.

I END UP TITLING THAT CHAPTER POSTCARDS FROM THE EDGE.

IT'S REALLY JUST A SERIES OF ORAL HISTOIES FROM PEOPLE THAT SERVED IN TOP NATIONAL SECURITY POSITIONS IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE, AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST CHILLING CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE TRUMP EXPERIENCE IN THE SITUATION ROOM, THOSE WHO HAD THE HIGHEST, MOST SENSITIVE NATIONAL SECURITY POSITIONS FROM HIS FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE REX TILLERSON TO HIS DEFENSE SECRETARY TO HIS WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF JOHN KELLY TO JOHN BOLTON, ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE THE MOST DAMNING CRITIQUES OF HIS COMPETENCE AND CHARACTER.

>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE SITUATION ROOM, AND WRITE ABOUT IT, YOU TALK ABOUT THE UNSUNG HEROES OF THE SITUATION ROOM, WHICH ARE THE BUREAUCRATS AND THE PEOPLE WE DON'T KNOW THAT WELL.

>> FOR ME, THE BEST PART OF DOING THIS BOOK WAS EVERY AFTERNOON HAVING THE CHANCE TO TALK TO THE DUTY OFFICERS.

I SPOKE TO MORE THAN 100 OF THEM, WHO COME FROM EVERY PART OF THE GOVERNMENT TO SERVE 1 TO 3 YEARS IN THE SITUATION ROOM, TRACKING INFORMATION, SYNTHESIZING INTELLIGENCE, SETTING UP COMMUNICATIONS FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

THESE ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

AND THEIR SENSE OF DUTY, THEIR SENSE OF PATRIOTISM, THEIR RIGOROUS ETHIC OF BEING APOLITICAL, SERVING THE PRESIDENCY, NOT THE PRESIDENT, WAS SO IMPRESSIVE TO ME, AT A TIME WHEN, YOU KNOW, SO MANY ARE DERIDING SO-CALLED DEEP STATE, YOU KNOW, I WAS TALKING TO PEOPLE FROM THE DEEP STATE EVERY THING I LEARNED IS THAT THEY ARE THE MOST PATRIOTIC PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT.

OUT THERE SERVING THEIR COUNTRY EVERY SINGLE DAY, TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, AND MAKING IT WORK IN THE HIGHEST PRESSURE SITUATION IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE DERIDING THE DEEP STATE, OF COURSE, THE PERSON DOING THAT THE MOST, OR MOST PROMINENTLY, IS DONALD TRUMP, AS HE'S RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND HE SAYS HE'LL GET RID OF THE CIVIL SERVICE PROTECTIONS, HE'LL TRY TO JUST ROOT OUT THIS ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO SERVE DIFFERENT PRESIDENTS.

HOW DANGEROUS DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> HUGE.

HUGE.

AND WE CAME CLOSE.

I TALKED TO ONE DUTY OFFICER WHO WAS ACTUALLY SERVING INSIDE THE SITUATION ROOM ON JANUARY 6th, WHEN HE WAS IN CONTACT WITH THE SECRET SERVICE ON CAPITOL HILL, WORRIED THAT THEY WERE LOSING THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND EXPLAINING TO ME THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW CLOSE WE CAME TO LOSING THE VICE PRESIDENT THAT DAY.

HE AND HIS FELLOW DUTY OFFICERS THAT DAY DID WORRY THAT OUR INSTITUTIONS WERE CRUMBLING, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY -- THEY EVEN STARTED TO IMPLEMENT THESE CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT PROCEDURES, WHICH WERE DESIGNED TO ENSURE THAT THE GOVERNMENT SURVIVED AN ATTACK LIKE A NUCLEAR WAR WAS BEING IMPLEMENTED ON JANUARY 6th.

THANK GOODNESS THE REPUBLIC DID STAND THAT DAY, THE INSTITUTIONS DIDN'T CRUMBLE, BUT THEY'RE DEEPLY WORRIED, KNOWING WHAT THEY HAD SEEN INSIDE THE SITUATION ROOM AND INSIDE THE NATIONAL SECURITY DECISION-MAKING PROCESS, DURING THOSE YEARS, THAT IF, IN A SECOND TERM, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THAT KIND OF GUARANTEE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN VERY ELOQUENT ABOUT WHAT'S AT STAKE IN THIS ELECTION.

AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER BEING AT THE TOTAL CORE OF WHAT A DEMOCRACY IS ABOUT.

WHAT ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK JOURNALISTS SHOULD BE DOING IN COVERING THIS?

>> I'M MOST WORRIED ABOUT HOW WHAT IS SHAMEFUL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECOMING NORMALIZED.

I MEAN, FOR ME, I THINK IT'S VERY POSSIBLE -- THE BEGINNING AND END OF THE CONVERSATION SHOULD BE LOOKING BACK AT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.

YOU KNOW, NEVER BEFORE IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS A FORMER PRESIDENT INCITED AN INSURRECTION INSTEAD OF HANDING OVER THE REINS OF POWER.

NEVER BEFORE IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS A PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO LIE ABOUT THAT ELECTION AFTER BEING BOTH INDICTED AND IMPEACHED AND ALSO NEVER BEFORE HAS A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT REFUSED GOING IN TO SAY I'M NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS, BASICALLY, IF I LOSE.

THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER IS WHAT'S -- IS FUNDAMENTAL TO OUR DEMOCRACY, AND WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT, AS WE ALL TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO COVER THIS RACE EVERY SINGLE DAY, IS HOW THAT JUST BECOMES ONE MORE ISSUE TO BE DISCUSSED, YOU KNOW, ON PAR WITH TAX POLICY OR ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS, WHEN IT'S WHOLLY ANOTHER CHARACTER.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO KEEP THAT IN CONTEXT AND I THINK TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON HOW DANGEROUS THAT IS.

>> GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, IN A LEAGUE OF HER OWN.

SIMONE BILES HAS WON A RECORD EXTENDING NINTH ALL-AROUND NATIONAL TITLE AT THE U.S.

GYMNASTICS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

BILES CRUISED TO VICTORY WHILE DOMINATING THE FOUR EVENTS, BALANCE BEAM, FLOOR, UNEVEN BARS, AND VAULT.

BACK IN 2021 AT THE TOKYO GAMES, BILES EXPERIENCED WHAT'S KNOWN AS THE TWISTIES, A MENTAL BLOCK CAUSING GYMNASTS TO LOSE TRACK OF THEIR BODY POSITIONS.

AFTER TAKING A TWO-YEAR BREAK TO FOCUS ON HER MENTAL HEALTH, SHE'S NOW BACK, AND EVER CLOSER TO QUALIFYING FOR THE UPCOMING OLYMPICS IN PARIS.

TRULY, A CHAMPION ON THE FLOOR AND OFF.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

♪♪♪