June 5, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THERE IS A WORLD WIDE MIGRANT CRISIS, AND IF THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T SECURE OUR BORDER, THERE'S NO LIMIT TO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO MAY TRY TO COME HERE.

>> BIDEN TAKES EXECUTIVE ACTION ON THE BORDER.

WE DELVE INTO WHAT IT MEANS FOR PEOPLE THERE AND FOR ELECTION YEAR POLITICS.

THEN -- >> DOCUMENT SEVERAL CASES WHERE THEY EXECUTED LOCAL PEOPLE.

TELL THEM WE NEED ANYTHING, CALL SIGNS OR NAMES OR WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE.

>> THE CRANE'S CALL.

A NEW FILM CHARTS ONE WOMAN'S FIGHT FOR JUSTICE IN UKRAINE.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> THIS JUST MAY BE A REMINDER OF WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU GET A DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

>> MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH DEBBIE WALSH, HEAD OF THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN POLITICS AT RUTGERS UNIVERSITY.

ABOUT HOW DONALD TRUMP'S CONVICTION MAY INFLUENCE WOMEN VOTERS.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT IS A MAJOR ELECTION ISSUE, IMMIGRATION.

AND NOW PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TAKING ACTION.

NEW RESTRICTIONS CAME INTO EFFECT ALMOST IMMEDIATELY OVERNIGHT.

THEY SAY MIGRANTS WHO CROSS THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER ILLEGALLY BARRED FROM SEEKING ASYLUM ONCE A DAILY THRESHOLD IS REACHED.

BIDEN BLAMED REPUBLICANS FOR BLOCKING A BIPARTISAN BORDER DEAL.

AS CROSSINGS SURGED TO RECORD HIGHS LATE LAST YEAR, IT'S A HUGE SHIFT FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHO, FOR YEARS, CRITICIZED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POLICIES ON IMMIGRATION.

OF COURSE, BEYOND THE POLITICS ARE REAL PEOPLE AT THE BORDER.

THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION SAYS BIDEN'S MOVE WILL, QUOTE, PUT THOUSANDS OF LIVES AT RISK.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS ANDREA FLORES, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR THE ACLU'S EQUALITY DIVISION AND FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA AND PRESIDENT BIDEN ON IMMIGRATION POLICY.

ANDREA FLORES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

OBVIOUSLY, YOUR VIEWS ON THIS ARE PRETTY APPARENT, YOU'VE BEEN DISAPPOINTED BY THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, YOU WRITTEN AN OPINION PIECE ABOUT IT IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES."

FIRST, LET'S JUST BEGIN WITH WHAT DROVE THIS ACTION FROM THE PRESIDENT NOW.

CYNICS WILL SAY THIS IS SIMPLY A POLITICAL STUNT BY THE PRESIDENT, GIVEN THAT HIS APPROVAL RATING ON IMMIGRATION SPECIFICALLY ARE VERY LOW, AROUND 28%.

OTHERS SAY THAT HE HAD NO ALTERNATIVE, GIVEN THAT HE HAD A CONGRESS THAT WAS NOT WILLING TO ACT, EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A BIPARTISAN -- SOME OF THE TOUGHEST LEGISLATION EVER PREVENTED, AVAILABLE, AND A SPEAKER WHO WAS NOT WILLING TO PUSH IT FORWARD.

>> SO, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT BIDEN, HAS FACED MAJOR CHALLENGES WITH THE BORDER AND THIS ISSUE.

AND PART OF THAT IS SIMPLY BECAUSE MIGRATION LEVELS ARE HIGHER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN IN A VERY LONG TIME, POST-PANDEMIC, POST-YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC COLLAPSE IN MANY COUNTRIES ALONG SORT OF THE MIGRATORY ROUTE IN LATIN AMERICA, CENTRAL AMERICA, BUT YOU KNOW, HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS, OTHER THAN TO PURSUE AN ORDER RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD SHUT DOWN ASYLUM IN A MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE WAY THAN HE HAS IN THE PAST.

AND AS A GREAT EXAMPLE, YOU LOOK AT HIS OWN WORK THAT HIS TEAM DID BY NEGOTIATING WITH MEXICO AFTER THE LAST BIG SURGE IN BORDER CROSSINGS, AND THEY ACTUALLY HELPED REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH MEXICO THAT LED TO A DECREASE BY OVER 50% IN UNAUTHORIZED BORDER CROSSINGS.

IT'S KIND OF AN OPEN QUESTION AS TO WHY HE CHOSE TO ISSUE YET ANOTHER RESTRICTIVE BAN, WHEN WE'VE LOOKED AT THE PAST FEW YEARS, THESE TYPES OF BANS RARELY WORK.

HE KEPT TITLE 42, WHICH WAS JUST AS AN EXPANSIVE OF AN ASYLUM BAN AND WE SAW THE HIGHEST NUMBERS IN THE LAST THREE YEARS IN THE PAST DECADE.

SO, THESE ARE POLICIES THAT REALLY LEAD TO THE SAME KINDS OF RESULTS, AS YOU ACTUALLY SAW HIM GET BY USING FOREIGN POLICY TOOLS TO ADDRESS MIGRATION THAT WAY.

SO, IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE RIGHT APPROACH TO BORDER POLITICS AND FIXING THE ISSUE, BUT IT'S ALSO WHY WE'RE ARGUING THAT HE NEEDS TO BROADEN OUT THE CONVERSATION ON IMMIGRATION TO TALK ABOUT THE THINGS HE'S DOING TO HELP IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE HERE TODAY.

>> BUT IF ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSINGS SURPASS 2,500, WHICH THEY HAVE THROUGHOUT MOST OF HIS PRESIDENCY, WE SAW, WHAT, 3,500 JUST EARLIER THIS WEEK, IS THAT NOT VIEWED IN YOUR OPINION AS A CRISIS?

BECAUSE, AS YOU NOTED, IN YOUR VIEW, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS FOR THE PRESIDENT, YOU SAID THERE ARE SOME OPTIONS THAT WERE ALREADY GOING INTO EFFECT, AND WORKING.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE CASE, THOUGH, JUST LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS THEMSELVES.

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION ON NUMBERS.

SO, I'VE BEEN ON THE RECORD, IT IS A CRISIS.

IT HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS, RIGHT?

THIS STARTED UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, IT GOT WORSE UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND IT'S CONTINUED TO BE AN UPWARD TREND IN MIGRATION.

SO, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT POLICY ACTION IS ACTUALLY NEEDED HERE, BUT IT'S A QUESTION OF WHICH POLICIES ACTUALLY HAVE THE EVIDENCE BEHIND THEM TO FIX THE PROBLEM, RIGHT?

SO, WE'RE NOT ARGUING THAT HE SHOULD NOT ADDRESS THE BORDER CRISIS OR TALK ABOUT THE REALLY SHORE UP VULNERABILITIES ON THIS ISSUE, BUT WHY ISN'T HE TALKING ABOUT HIS OWN POLICIES?

SO, HE CREATED OPTIONS FOR SOME OF THE HIGHEST SORT OF NATIONALITIES THAT WERE CROSSING THE BORDER.

LET'S TAKE VENEZUELA FOR EXAMPLE.

8 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED RIGHT NOW FROM VENEZUELA, THAT'S A HUGE NUMBER, AND IT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING SUCH A HIGH NUMBER OF BORDER CROSSINGS THE PAST THREE YEARS FROM VENEZUELANS.

HE CREATED AN OPTION FOR THEM, INSTEAD OF HAVING TO USE A SMUGGLER, INSTEAD OF THEM COMING UP TO THE BORDER, HE CREATED A PATHWAY THAT ALLOWED THEM TO APPLY FOR TEMPORARY LEGAL STATUS IN THE UNITED STATES, COME WITH AN AMERICAN SPONSOR, AND, YOU KNOW, FLY INTO THE U.S., AND THOSE -- THAT WAS A MUCH BETTER OPTION, SAY, THAN JUST SIMPLY RESTRICTING THEM FROM COMING TO THE BORDER AND SEEK ASYLUM.

AND WHAT YOU SAW WHEN THAT POLICY WENT INTO PLACE AND HE EXPANDED IT TO THREE OTHER NATIONALITIES, THAT ALSO DECREASED UNAUTHORIZED CROSSINGS.

SO, WE'RE LIVING IN AN OUTDATED PLACE ON SORT OF BORDER SECURITY POLICY AND TOOLS.

ASYLUM BANS HAVE FAILED.

AND MANY OF US ARE ASKING HIM TO TAKE A BETTER EVIDENCE-BASED APPROACH.

>> IT IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF WHERE DO THESE PEOPLE GO?

WHERE THESE MIGRANTS GO?

THEY DON'T JUST DISAPPEAR.

IT IS MUCH EASIER FOR THEM TO GO BACK TO MEXICO, TO GO BACK TO SOME CENTRAL AMERICAN COUNTRIES LIKE GUATEMALA AND HONDURAS, WHO HAVE PROVISIONS IN PLACE TO TAKE THEM BACK.

THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE, THOUGH, AS YOU MENTIONED WITH VENEZUELA, AND NOW, WE'RE SEEING MANY COMING FROM FAR AWAY COUNTRIES, AFRICA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THEY -- THERE IS NO DEAL ON THE TABLE, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, IN REALITY, TO SEND THESE MY GRANTS BACK TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES.

THERE'S JUST NEWS TODAY THAT MEXICO AND THE UNITED STATES ARE NEARING AN AGREEMENT FOR NONMEXICAN MIGRANTS TO BE DEPORTED DIRECTLY TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES OTHER THAN MEXICO.

I'M NOT SURE WHEN THAT LOOKS LIKE, GIVEN THAT MANY OF THESE COUNTRIES DON'T HAVE THESE TYPES OF AGREEMENTS WITH THE U.S. >> THIS IS SUCH A GREAT QUESTION, AND WHEN WE JUST TALKING ABOUT BORDER NUMBERS, WHAT WE MISS IS THE FACT THAT EXACTLY TO YOUR POINT.

DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES GET TREATED DIFFERENTLY AT OUR BORDER, WHICH MAKES IT REALLY, REALLY HARD TO SET BORDER POLICIES THAT WILL IMPACT EVERYONE IN THE SAME WAY.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY YOU DO WANT FEWER PEOPLE HAVING TO ACCESS OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM AT THE BORDER.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF CONGRESS, AS I POINT OUT IN THE PIECE I WROTE, THEY HAVE NOT MEANINGFULLY CHANGED WHO ACTUALLY GETS TO COME TO THE U.S.

SINCE 1990.

SO, WE ARE GOING ON DECADES OF NOT UPDATING VISA CATEGORIES FOR EMPLOYERS, FOR FAMILIES, FOR PEOPLE SEEKING, YOU KNOW, PROTECTION, WHETHER THROUGH ASYLUM OR THE REFUGEE PROGRAM.

SO, WE ARE USING AN OUTDATED SYSTEM, AND THERE'S NO -- IT'S NO WONDER WHY WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD WHO CAN'T GET A VISA, WHO -- THERE'S NO LINE FOR THEM TO JOIN, YOU SEE THEM NOW USING THE ASYLUM SYSTEM AT OUR BORDER.

THAT'S A BAD, OUTDATED SITUATION.

BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE CURRENT BORDER POLICY CONVERSATION IS JUST THAT WE KEEP TALKING ONLY ABOUT ENDING ASYLUM, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BUILDING OUT THE PATHWAYS THAT WE ACTUALLY WANT AS A COUNTRY, BECAUSE WE WANT IMMIGRANTS FOR LABOR SHORTAGSHORTAGES, TO REVERSE POPULATION DECLINE.

WE HAVE REAL NATIONAL NEEDS HERE.

BUT IF WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT ASYLUM, WE'RE MISSING THE BIGGER PICTURE.

>> I WANT TO GET TO YOUR PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" WHERE YOU SAY THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS FALLING INTO A TRAP LAID OUT FOR HIM BY REPUBLICANS.

S EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> IT'S A REAL WIN, IF IMMIGRATION IS ONLY DEFINED BY WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE BORDER.

IT MEANS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DOESN'T GET TO TALK ABOUT DACA RECIPIENTS AND DREAMERS AND ALL THE WAYS THEY CONTRIBUTED TO OUR COUNTRY FOR THE LAST 12 YEARS.

IT MEANS HE DOESN'T GET TO TALK ABOUT THE HORRORS OF FAMILY SEPARATION, IN SOME WAYS, BECAUSE HE'S TALKING INSTEAD ABOUT WHAT HE WILL DO OR NOT DO DIFFERENTLY AT THE BORDER.

HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP RESTRICTED LEGAL IMMIGRATION, AND THAT HAD A HUGE ECONOMIC IMPACT ON, LET'S LOOK AT UNIVERSITY TOWNS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO FULLY BAN INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS FROM COMING TO THE UNITED STATES.

THERE WAS A HUGE OUTCRY OVER THAT.

AND SO, IF YOU FLATTEN IMMIGRATION, YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT WAYS IMMIGRANTS ALREADY LIVE IN OUR COMMUNITIES, ALREADY WORK AND CONTRIBUTE, THEN YOU ARE LOSING THE CONVERSATION, BECAUSE TRUMP WILL ALWAYS GO FURTHER TO THE RIGHT THAN PRESIDENT BIDEN ON THE BORDER.

WILL ALWAYS OFFER A MORE CRUEL ALTERNATIVE.

WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN CAN DO, WHICH HE CAMPAIGNED ON IN 2020, WHICH PRESIDENT OBAMA DID, HE SAID, WE HAVE HAD LONGTIME UNDOCUMENTED, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITIES, AND I'M GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR THEM, NOT JUST GOING TO SECURE THE BORDER.

SO, I TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN CAN RIGHT NOW HELP UP TO, LIKE, 1 MILLION AMERICAN FAMILIES, PARTICULARLY MARRIED COUPLES, WHO CANNOT ADJUST THEIR STATUS, SO, UNDOCUMENTED SPOUSES.

WHO COULD ADJUST THEIR STATUS, IF NOT FOR OUR OUTDATED IMMIGRATION LAWS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED SINCE 1990.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CAN GIVE THEM TEMPORARY ADMISSION AND HELP THEM GET A WORK PERMIT AND IN MANY CASES HELP THEM ACCESS THAT PATH TO CITIZENSHIP.

THESE ARE POWERS THAT PRESIDENT BUSH USED, THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA USED, SO, WE'RE REALLY JUST MAKING AN ARGUMENT THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING ALSO PROTECTIVE FOR THE IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE HERE TODAY AND THE UNDOCUMENTED, BECAUSE THEY'RE PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BASE, RIGHT?

DEMOCRATS ALWAYS SAY, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR THE UNDOCUMENTED WHO HAVE BEEN WAITING AND WAITING ACROSS MULTIPLE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT LUCKILY, PRESIDENT BIDEN DOES HAVE OPTIONS.

HE'S ALREADY USED SOME OF THEM, LIKE TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS.

HE COULD USE MORE, MORE OF THEM, BUT HE STILL HAS TIME, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT PROTECTING AMERICAN CITIZENS AND THEIR SPOUSES.

HE'S GOING TO TALK ABOUT TEARING THOSE FAMILIES APART.

>> AND HE CAN DO THIS UNILATERALLY, BECAUSE YOU NEED CONGRESS TO PROVIDE A PERMANENT PATH TO CITIZENSHIP HERE, AND JUST IN TERMS OF THE TIMING, IS THIS SOMETHING REALISTICALLY SMART FOR HIM TO DO POLITICALLY, GIVEN THAT THE TWO, BIDEN AND TRUMP, ARE POLLING NECK AND NECK, THIS IS A TOP ISSUE FOR MANY VOTERS, DEMOCRATS HAVE SEEMED TO BE WEAKER ON THIS ISSUE HISTORICALLY AND WE'RE JUST MONTHS AWAY FROM THE ELECTION.

>> I THINK IT'S A HUGE POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.

LONG, WHEN PRESIDENTOBAMA IN 2012 IN THE MIDDLE OF A RE-ELECTION YEAR DID SOMETHING IMMENSELY BOLD BY CREATING THE DACA PROGRAM.

HELPING UP TO 1 MILLION PEOPLE WHO NOW OVER THE COURSE OF 12 YEARS STARTED FAMILIES, THEY'VE STARTED BUSINESSES, THEY'RE REALLY, YOU KNOW CONTRIBUTING TO OUR ECONOMY IN ENORMOUS WAYS.

IT IS POPULAR TO HELP THE UNDOCUMENTED FAMILY MEMBERS OF AMERICAN CITIZENS, BECAUSE LET'S CONSIDER THE ALTERNATIVE.

IN THIS ELECTION, HE CAN REALLY DRAW A CONTRAST, AND SAY, I AS PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW WILL PROTECT YOUR FAMILY.

I WILL GIVE THEM A MORE STABLE STATUS.

AND I WILL PROTECT THEM AGAINST POLITICAL CANDIDATES LIKE DONALD TRUMP WHOSE SOLE GOAL IS TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE -- THERE'S 4 MILLION AMERICAN CITIZEN CHILDREN WHO HAVE UNDOCUMENTED PARENTS RIGHT NOW.

IMAGINE THE HUMAN TOLL OF PRESIDENT TRUMP COMING IN AND DOING WHAT HE HAS PROMISED TO DO.

SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS BIDEN PROMISING TO DO TO STABILIZE, TAKE CARE OF THOSE CHILDREN, TAKE CARE OF THOSE FAMILY MEMBERS, AND, YOU KNOW, WE JUST WANT TO SHOW A POLICY THAT'S AN IMMIGRATION PARTY THAT'S BETTER ALIGNED WITH OUR PARTY'S VALUES.

ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE BORDER FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS, YOU SAW NO PROTECTIONS FOR THE UNDOCUMENTED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS IN THE SENATE BORDER BILL, RIGHT?

SO, YOU LOSE MOMENTUM IN MAKING THE ARGUMENT OF WHY IMMIGRANTS NEED TO BE PROTECTED NOW.

>> I'M WONDERING IF THE MOOD IN THE COUNTRY, NOT WITHSTANDING, YOU KNOW, WHERE REPUBLICANS ARE, BUT EVEN AMONG DEMOCRATS, IF IT HAS SHIFTED A BIT FURTHER TO THE RIGHT ON THIS ISSUE.

YES, THERE ARE PROGRESSIVES WHO ARE DISAPPOINTED, WHO HAVE SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, BUT YOU HAVE MANY DEMOCRATS, LIKE FROM HAKEEM JEFFRIES TO THOSE IN BORDER STATES, SHERROD BROWN IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A SENATOR WHO HAVE COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF THIS ACTION, MANY ARE POINTING TO THE CAMPAIGN THAT NEW YORK REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI LED MOVING THAT FORWARD.

HOW DOES THAT ALIGN WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

BECAUSE YOU ARE POINTING TO EXAMPLES THAT WORKED FOUR YEARS AGO, EIGHT YEARS AGO, BUT TODAY, PERHAPS, ARE NOT THE MOST ENTICING, EVEN FOR MIDDLE OF THE LINE DEMOCRATS?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THE POLITICS ON IMMIGRATION HAVE SHIFTED AND THERE'S BEEN A VERY DIRECT CAUSE, WHICH IS, IF DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A VISION FOR HOW TO MAKE THE BORDER SAFER, MORE ORDERLY, HOW THEY GET PEOPLE TO COMPLY WITH CURRENT LAW, THEN YOU SEE WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST THREE YEARS, RIGHT?

WHAT ARE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS AT THE BORDER, WHICH ARE, YOU KNOW, A NEW CRISIS IN CITIES THAT ARE ILL EQUIPPED AND NOT FIVING FEDERAL SUPPORT TO MANAGE NEW ARRIVALS.

THOSE HAVE REAL CONSEQUENCES TO THE POLITICS OF THIS ISSUE.

BUT SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THIS SPACE THROUGH THIS MASSIVE SHIFT, WHAT SHOCKS ME AND GIVES ME HOPE TODAY IS THAT THERE IS STILL BIPARTISAN SUPPORT TO PROTECT THE UNDOCUMENTED.

THAT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT, RIGHT?

IN POLL AFTER POLL, YOU EVEN SEE TRUMP VOTERS POLLING IN FAVOR OF SAYING, WE STILL NEED TO PROTECT THE UNDOCUMENTED.

SO, THE RECOMMENDATIONS ARE VERY IN LINE WITH SAYING, YOU CAN BE FOR BORDER SECURITY.

NOW, AS A BORDER EXPERT, I MIGHT RECOMMEND DIFFERENT POLICY SOLUTIONS, BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, YOU CAN ALSO AND SHOULD BE FOR PROTECTING THE LONGTIME UNDOCUMENTED IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT'S POLITICALLY POPULAR, AND YOU SAW TOM SUOZZI DO THIS IN HIS SPECIAL ELECTION.

HE DIDN'T JUST TALK ABOUT THE BORDER.

THAT GETS A LITTLE BIT LOST.

HE PAIRED IT, HE SAID, I WANT TO ADVANCE BORDER SECURITY, AND I WANT TO CREATE LEGAL PATHWAYS AND PROTECT THE UNDOCUMENTED.

THAT'S A TWO-PART MESSAGE, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WE'RE ADVOCATING FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO THE SAME.

>> WE MENTIONED YOUR AFFILIATION WITH THE ACLU, SO, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL THAT YOU THE ACLU HAS THREATENED LEGAL ACTION FOLLOWING THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

WE KNOW THE COURT STRUCK DOWN A SIMILAR PROPOSITION BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

BIDEN SAYS THEY HAVE TAKEN MORE EXCEPTIONS FOR HUMANITARIAN EMERGENCIES, AND THIS CAN BE TOGGLED ON AND OFF, AS TO JUST A FLAT ORDER.

GIVEN THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT THE COURTS WILL UPHOLD THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, OR DO YOU THINK THAT THEY ALSO WILL TURN IT AWAY?

>> SO, IT'S HARD TO PREDICT IN THIS CURRENT LEGAL ENVIRONMENT THAT WE'RE IN.

I WILL SAY THE TEXT OF THE LAW IS REALLY CLEAR.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT SAYS, YOU CAN APPLY FOR ASYLUM, REGARDLESS OF WHERE ALONG THE BORDER YOU ENTER.

NOW, MAYBE THAT SHOULD BE CHANGED, AND I THINK DEMOCRATS SHOULD CONSIDER, YOU KNOW, THE WAYS WE OPERATIONALIZE THE ASYLUM SYSTEM AND MAKE IT FAR MORE ORDER THAN WE'VE SEEN IT, BUT IF WE ARE SAYING, YOU SUPPORT THE RULE OF LAW, YOU CAN'T IGNORE THE WHOLE STATUTE THAT LAYS OUT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE PERMITTED TO SEEK ASYLUM, REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY ENTER.

AND SO, WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IS TRYING TO CREATE RESTRICTIONS AND COMPLETELY BLOCK PEOPLE FROM ACCESS TO ASYLUM, SO, IT'S A TOUGH LEGAL ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WHAT TRUMP DID.

>> YEAH.

ANDREA FLORES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY, WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WELL, JUST HOURS AFTER ANNOUNCING THAT EXECUTIVE ACTION ON IMMIGRATION, PRESIDENT BIDEN LEFT WASHINGTON FOR PARIS, TOUCHING DOWN IN FRANCE FOR A FIVE-DAY TRIP TO CELEBRATE THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF D-DAY, THE HISTORIC DAY WHEN U.S. AND ALLIED FORCES STORMED FRENCH BEACHES FROM AIR AND SEA IN WORLD WAR II.

OBVIOUSLY, A PIVOTAL STEP IN LIBERATING EUROPE FROM NAZI GERMANY.

BUT AMIDST THE CELEBRATION, THERE IS A DIPLOMATIC AGENDA, TOO, AS THE PRESIDENT SEEKS TO DEEPEN TIES WITH EUROPEAN ALLIES IN THE FACE OF GROWING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

HE'LL BE HEATING WITH UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO DISCUSS THE STATE OF PLAY, AND MELISSA BELL JOINS US NOW FROM NORMANDY.

MELISSA, YOU'RE AT GOLD BEACH, A BEAUTIFUL PICTURE THERE BEHIND YOU.

TALK TO US MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, WHAT YOU'RE HEARING.

>> WELL, THIS IS THE BEACH AMONGST THE NORMANDY BEACHES, BIANNA, WHERE SOME OF THOSE SERVICEMEN ARRIVED 80 YEARS AGO TOMORROW.

THAT'S WHAT ALL OF THESE PEOPLE OUT HERE ARE CELEBRATING, THE SACRIFICES THAT WERE MADE HERE ON GOLD BEACH BY BRITISH SOLDIERS, FURTHER DOWN THAT WAY, OMAHA, THE OTHER WAY, WHERE SO MANY AMERICAN SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN DIED, AND HARRY HERE HAS ALLOWED US ONTO HIS VEHICLE.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THAT WAS USED ON D-DAY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DUTCH PEOPLE, AS WELL, HERE, PAYING HOMAGE TO THE DUTCH SERVICEMEN WHO LOST THEIR LIVES AND WHO FOUGHT SO BRAVELY ON THAT DAY.

AND REALLY, WHAT'S BEEN EXTRAORDINARY THESE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS IS SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE COME OUT HERE TO MARK THIS EVENT.

OF COURSE, AS YOU SAID, THE HEADS OF STATE WILL BE HERE, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS COMING, JOE BIDEN IS ALREADY HERE.

THE FRENCH PRESIDENT HAS BEEN MAKING SPEECHES THROUGHOUT THE DAY ACROSS NORMANDY TO PAY HOMAGE TO THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIAN VICTIMS.

BUT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT MARKING OUR RESPECTS TO THOSE SERVICEMEN, SPECIFIC YOU WILL THOSE WHO CAME FROM THE UNITED STATES, CAME TO A COUNTRY THEY'VE NEVER SEEN, TO LIBERATE A PEOPLE THEY DIDN'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE LIKELY TO HEAR A GREAT DEAL FROM THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT ABOUT.

THE SORT OF HISTORICAL LINE THAT CAN BE DRAWN BETWEEN WHAT WAS DONE ON THESE BEACHES 80 YEARS AGO TOMORROW, BY THESE VERY YOUNG MEN IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM, ALL THAT FOLLOWED THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR.

>> YEAH, SADLY, WE'VE LOST MELISSA'S INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL LIVE SHOT THERE, QUITE PHENOMENAL TO SEE HER ON THAT JEEP THERE AS SHE WALKED US THROUGH THE EVENTS PLAYING OUT TODAY, OBVIOUSLY HIGHLIGHTING THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF D-DAY.

OUR THANKS TO MELISSA BELL FOR JOINING US FROM NORMANDY.

>>> WELL, AS WORLD LEADERS REFLECT ON THE SACRIFICES MADE 0 YEARS AGO IN NORMANDY, MANY LOOK TO UKRAINE AS A REMINDER OF THE ONGOING BATTLE TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY.

ITS RESISTANCE TO RUSSIA'S INVASION IS AT A DARK MOMENT, AFTER A SURPRISE ATTACK ON NORTHEASTERN KHARKIV LAST MONTH OPENED UP A NEW FRONT.

MEANWHILE, THERE ARE CRITICAL EFFORTS UNDER WAY TO INVESTIGATE AND DOCUMENT THE HORRORS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY, THE CRANE'S CALL, FOCUSES ON WOMEN DOING JUST THAT.

LONGTIME HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERT, ALONGSIDE HER UKRAINIAN COLLEAGUE.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE FILM IN WHICH THEY VISIT A MASS BURIAL SITE.

♪♪♪ >> WE KNOW THAT THERE WERE SOME BODIES FOUND THERE WITH SIGNS OF EXECUTIONS, KIND OF HANDS TIED BEHIND AND SIGNS OF TORTURE.

THE FAMILIES, WE NEED TO FIND THOSE WHO CAN TALK ABOUT IT.

>> WELL, JOINING ME NOW FROM LONDON IS THE FILM'S DIRECTOR, LAURA WARNER, AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, EVAN WILLIAMS.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU.

CONGRATULATIONS, REALLY, ON A STUNNING PIECE OF WORK.

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS SOMETHING SO RECENT, AS WE'RE COMMEMORATING 80 YEARS AGO TODAY, OR TOMORROW, ACTUALLY, IN NORMANDY, TO NOW REFLECT ON A WAR THAT'S JUST TWO YEARS, BUT STILL ONGOING, AND GIVEN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE NOW TO DOCUMENT SOME OF THE SAME WARD CRIMES, SADLY, THAT WE'VE SEEN IN WARS OF THE PAST, THANKS IN LARGE PART TO THE WOMEN THAT WE SEE IN THIS FILM, LARGELY LED BY ANYA.

LAURA, TELL US MORE ABOUT ANYA.

>> I MEAN, ANYA IS AN EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN BEING.

SHE'S BEEN DOCUMENTS PUTIN'S WAR CRIMES FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.

SO, SHE HAS BEEN DOCK DOCUMENTING WAR CRIMES IN SYRIA AND CHECHNYA.

ANYA SAID, WE NEED TO BE THERE TO DOCUMENT THE WAR CRIMES THAT WILL BE COMMITTED.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT SHE DID.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE REALLY PRIVILEGED THAT SHE ALLOWED US TO COME ALONG AND DOCUMENT HER WORK WHILE SHE WAS ON THE GROUND PUTTING TOGETHER THESE QUITE EXTRAORDINARY LAWSUITS.

>> ANYA HERSELF BEING OF RUSSIAN HERITAGE, BEING BORN IN RUSSIA, HER FAMILY HAS A HISTORY BEING HUMAN RIGHTS CRUSADERS, THAT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME IN THE COUNTRY.

SHE SAYS SHE NO LONGER RECOGNIZES THE RUSSIA TODAY.

YOU PORTRAY THAT IN THE FILM, AS WELL.

SHE'S LEFT THE COUNTRY AND NOW UKRAINE, ACTUALLY, AFTER LIVING IN PARIS AS SHE CONTINUES HER IMPORTANT WORK IN UKRAINE.

EVAN, THE FILM OPENS WITH A STAGGERING NUMBER, OVER 120,000 POTENTIAL DOCUMENTED WAR CRIMES REPORTED.

HOW DID THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT COME TO YOU AND TALK ABOUT YOUR VISION IN SEEING IT THROUGH.

>> WELL, WHEN RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE, AS FILMMAKERS, WE ALL GOT TOGETHER AND DISCUSSED, WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ON WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND THE BIG QUESTION WAS, WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST APPROPRIATE AND THE BEST WAY FORWARD?

MANY FILMS WERE BEING MADE ABOUT THE CONFLICT AND THE FIGHTING.

AND WE DISCOVERED THAT THE FOUNDATION FOR JUSTICE HAD THIS PROJECT UP AND RUNNING THROUGH ANYA, AND THAT THEY VERY GENEROUSLY ACCEPTED OUR APPLICATION FOR EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO ANYA AND HER TEAM AS THEY WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF THAT EXTENSIVE WAR CRIMES INVESTIGATION.

OUR COMMITMENT WAS TO BE WITH THEM FROM THE BEGINNING ALL THE WAY THROUGH, AS MUCH AS BECOULD, ON THE GROUND WITH THEM AT EVERY POINT AND TO FOLLOW THROUGH THE PROCESS AND TO PRESENT TO THE WORLD WHAT IT WAS THEY ARE TRYING TO DO WITH NOT JUST THE INVESTIGATION, BUT ALSO IN THE WAY THEY'RE PRESENTING THE FINDINGS TO CRIMINAL COURTS ACROSS EUROPE.

AND THE HOPE IS THAT THEY CAN OPEN UP THESE CASES UNDER WHAT'S CALLED UNIVERSAL JURISDICTION.

THESE ARE CRIMINAL CASES THAT WILL THEN GO FORWARD, AND THAT RUSSIANS -- RUSSIAN COMMANDERS AND SOLDIERS WILL BE ON NOTICE THAT THEY COULD BE FACING CRIMINAL CHARGES, CRIMINAL COURTS IN EUROPEAN CRIMINAL COURTS AND THAT THIS, IN A WAY, MAY CURTAIL, IF NOT PERHAPS EVEN PREVENT FUTURE WAR CRIMES FROM OCCURRING.

>> A VERY DIFFICULT TASK AT HAND, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S LAUDABLE FOR HER TO BE DOING.

SHE AND OTHERS THAT YOU'VE WORKED WITH TO DO THE WORK THEY'VE BEEN DOING, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, NOT ONLY TO GET BRAVE WITNESSES TO COME FORWARD, BUT TO FIND CONCRETE EVIDENCE, AS WELL, AND IT WAS INTERESTING AT ONE POINT IN THE FILM WHERE ANYA IS QUOTED AS SAYING THAT SHE'S NEVER SEEN SO MUCH EVIDENCE LAID OUT, LEFT BEHIND BY SOME OF THESE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS.

I WANT TO PLAY A MOMENT FROM THE FILM, WHERE SHE AND HER PARTNER, ANOTHER UKRAINIAN WHO WAS HER TRANSLATOR, AND PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS, ACTUALLY CAME UPON SOME OF THAT EVIDENCE.

>> OH, MY GOD.

THIS IS -- >> ANYA!

I FOUND SOMETHING REALLY GOOD FOR YOU HERE.

YOU'RE REALLY GOING TO LIKE IT.

LOOK.

>> HERE, THERE ARE WHOLE SIGNS, NAMES, SOME NUMBERS, I MEAN, WE NEED TO GO THROUGH IT, BUT IN THEORY, SOMETHING LIKE THAT COULD HELP US TO ESTABLISH WHO WERE THE PEOPLE AND UNITS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THE EXECUTIONS THAT WE'VE JUST DOCUMENTED.

>> SO, WE FOUND A LIST.

THEY WROTE PLACES, LIKE, AREAS OR TOWNS ORVILLEAGES, AND THEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE, CODE NAMES.

>> THIS PIECE OF PAPER, IDENTIFY THE COMMANDER OF THE FIRST BATTALION.

>> IT'S A FREAKING GOLD MINE.

>> IT'S A FREAKING GOLD MINE, TO QUOTE.

LAURA, WALK US THROUGH WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DISCOVERED THERE.

>> I MEAN, IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANCE, IT WAS -- IT WAS A FORMER SCHOOL THAT THE RUSSIANS HAD USED AS A BASE IN IN THE CITY, AND WE ARRIVED LITERALLY TWO DAYS AFTER THE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS HAD LIBERATED IT FROM THE RUSSIANS, SO, IT WAS, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY WAS VERY TRAUMATIZED, IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT PLACE FOR EVERYBODY TO BE WORKING, ANYA AND OURSELVES INCLUDED.

AND WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO WAS TO FIND AND DOCUMENT WAR CRIMES THAT HAD HAPPENED ON THE GROUND WHILE THE RUSSIANS HAD BEEN THERE.

AND ONE OF THE CASES THAT WE DISCOVERED WAS OF A UKRAINIAN WRITER, AND HE HAD BEEN ABDUCTED AND ULTIMATELY EXECUTED BY THE RUSSIANS.

AND WE SPOKE TO HIS MOTHER, AND ANYA THEN BASICALLY WENT ON THE TRAIL TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HIM, YOU KNOW, WHO HAD TAKEN HIM, WHAT THEY HAD DONE TO HIM?

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, UNTIL THEY CAN ACTUALLY ASCERTAIN WHO THE INDIVIDUALS ARE ON THE GROUND THAT COMMITTED THE CRIME AND THE COMMANDERS, THEY DON'T HAVE A CASE.

SO, IN MANY WAYS, ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, THIS FILM IS SET IN A WAR ZONE, THIS IS KIND OF -- IT'S MUCH MORE OF A SORT OF CRIME -- CRIME DRAMA, A CRIME THRILLER IN MANY WAYS, BECAUSE THEY ARE LITERALLY LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE ON THE GROUND OF WHO HAS DONE IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS THE -- THERE IS THE ADDED, OF COURSE, THAT ANYBODY THAT DECIDES TO WORK WITH ANYA AND TAKE THEIR CASES FORWARD WILL ULTIMATELY BE STANDING UP IN THE PUBLIC EYE AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, I -- I WANT ACCOUNTABILITY FROM PUTIN AND HIS COMMANDERS.

>> YEAH, AND YOU PORTRAY THAT SO EFFECTIVELY IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, AT TIMES IT DOES FEEL LIKE A REAL THRILLER, AND THIS PARTICULAR WRITER, A FAMOUS POET, WHOSE DEATH THEY TRIED TO SEEK JUSTICE FOR AND LEARN MORE ABOUT, I JUST HAVE TO SAY, I COMMEND YOU FOR JUST GIVING HIM SO MUCH JUSTICE AND SUCH A -- SUCH A BEAUTIFUL WAY OF REALLY HONORING HIS WORK AND LIFE IN THIS FILM.

EVAN, YOU COVERED OTHER WAR STORIES, AND THE WAR CRIMES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THEM IN SOME OF YOUR WORK.

I'M JUST WONDERING WHERE THIS PARTICULAR WAR AND SOME OF THE WORK THAT ANYA AND HER TEAM UNCOVERED, WHERE THAT AND HOW THAT STACKS UP IN TERMS OF JUST THE EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO FIND.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND AS LAURA SAYS, I'VE BEEN BLOWN AWAY, WORKING WITH ANYA AND THE TEAM, FOLLOWING THE WAY THAT THEY THEN APPROACH THESE SITUATIONS, THEY'VE GOT TO DO IT IN A WAY WHICH IS VERY OPEN-MINDED, AND YET VERY PROFESSIONAL, THEY CAN'T GET EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED IN THESE THINGS, BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT TO ACQUIRE THE INFORMATION AND THE EVIDENCE IN A CERTAIN WAY, WHICH WILL THEN EVENTUALLY BE PRESENTED IN COURTS.

SO, BEING PART OF THAT PROCESS FOR THE FIRST TIME WAS A REAL EYE-OPENER TO ME ABOUT HOW THESE THINGS ACTUALLY WORK, WHAT YOU ACTUALLY NEED, HOW YOU THEN GO ABOUT THE PERPETRATORS, WHAT INFORMATION YOU NEED TO PUT THAT CASE TOGETHER.

NORMALLY, I'VE BEEN IN SITUATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, SIMILAR MASS WAR CRIME SITUATIONS WHERE IT'S VERY MUCH AFTER THE EVENT, PEOPLE ARE VERY TRAUMATIZED, THEY REMEMBER, HALF REMEMBER THINGS, THERE'S NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE OFTEN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, AND SO, YOU HAVE TO PIECE IT TOGETHER IN THAT WAY, BUT THIS IS FOLLOWING PEOPLE WHO ARE THEN GETTING THE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE WITH THE WITNESS STATEMENTS, THEN ALL THE OPEN SOURCE INFORMATION, ALL THE EXTRA DETAILS THEY CAN GET TO PUT IT TOGETHER IN A CASE.

AND FOLLOWING THAT PROCESS, I THINK, HAS BEEN REALLY AMAZING FROM A FILM MAKING POINT OF VIEW.

AND I MUST SAY, SHE'S VERY MUCH THE UKRAINIAN HEART OF THE INVESTIGATION.

SHE STARTED OFF NOT BEING INVOLVED IN THIS SORT OF THING AT ALL.

ANYA BROUGHT HER ONBOARD, AND SHE BECAME A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE INVESTIGATION, AND, OF COURSE, THROUGH HER EYES, AS YOU SEE IN THE DOCUMENTARY, SHE'S LIVING AND BREATHING THE DAILY TERRORS AND THE CONFLICTS OF LIVING IN THE WAR ZONE THAT ALL UKRAINIANS ARE LIVING EVERY DAY.

>> I HAVE TO SAY, I HAVE A SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART FOR HER, AS WELL.

>> WE ALL DO.

>> HEARING HER SINGING BOB MARLEY IS JUST A REALLY POIGNANT MOMENT IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.

AND LAURA, AS MUCH AS ANYA IS FOCUSED ON DOING THIS WORK AND TRYING NOT TO BECOME TOO EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED, THE FACT THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO WIN THE TRUST OF SOME OF THESE VICTIMS, TO COME FORWARD, TO TELL THEIR STORIES AS THEY SEEK JUSTICE, ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE LIKE ANYA, WHO RUSSIAN-BORN, RIGHT, AND GETTING THEM TO TRUST.

GETTING THEM TO TRUST HER WITH THEIR STORIES, WITH THEIR DIGNITY, THAT IS REALLY ADMIRABLE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HIGHLIGHT IN THIS FILM, AS WELL.

SHE ASKS THEM NUMEROUS TIMES, ARE YOU OKAY IF YOU ARE ON FILM, CAN WE USE YOUR NAME?

AND THEY WERE ALL DETERMINED TO TELL THEIR STORIES, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THEY WANT TO HOLD THOSE PERPETRATORS ACCOUNTABLE.

>> I MEAN, IT WAS -- WHEN WE FIRST STARTED -- WHEN I SAY WE FIRST STARTED FILMING, BUT OBVIOUSLY, WE WERE FILMING ANYA ARRIVING IN UKRAINE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REALLY TRIED TO PUT ACROSS, BUT IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, IS THE SHEER SCALE OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

AS EVAN JUST SAID, THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, THE UKRAINIAN PROSECUTORS HAVE NOW DOCUMENTED OVER 100,000 WAR CRIMES.

AND SO, YOU IMAGINE, WE ARRIVE IN THE COUNTRY, AND IT'S LIKE, WHERE DO YOU GO?

WHO DO YOU TALK TO?

IT'S VILLAGE AFTER VILLAGE AFTER VILLAGE OF TRAUMATIZED INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE LIVED THROUGH, I MEAN, SOME OF THE MOST HORRIFIC EXPERIENCES.

SOME SURVIVED AND SOME DIDN'T.

AND OBVIOUSLY WE -- WELL, WE'RE FILMING ANYA DOING HER WORK, BUT THERE WERE NUMEROUS PEOPLE WHO WERE REALLY WAY TOO TRAUMATIZED TO BE FILMED BY US, AND OF COURSE WE WOULD RESPECT THEIR WISHES, BUT THERE WERE OTHERS WHO YOU SEE IN THE FILM WHO WERE ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT THAT WHAT THEY WANT IS JUSTICE, AND IT WAS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ANYA IS OFFERING THEM, THROUGH HER LEGAL WORK, IS -- IS AGENCY.

YOU KNOW?

THEY GET A CHANCE TO STAND UP AND SAY, WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IS UNACCEPTABLE AND I WANT JUSTICE.

AND I DON'T CARE IF THAT JUSTICE IS AGAINST PUTIN AND HIS GENERALS.

I DESERVE IT.

AND IT'S GREAT TO SEE THESE SURVIVORS ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, GETTING ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> YEAH, AND THERE WERE SO MANY IN THIS FILM WHO I JUST FOUND SO TOUCHING, THEIR STORIES HEARTBREAKING, ESPECIALLY MOVED BY A FATHER WHO SURVIVED A MISSILE STRIKE ON HIS HOME.

THE FATHER OF A YOUNG SON WHO WAS HAVING A SLEEPOVER, I MEAN, AGAIN, WHAT MAKES THESE STORIES SO POWERFUL NOW TWO YEARS INTO THE WAR IS WHEN YOU'RE HEARING FROM EVERYDAY CITIZENS WHO JUST WANT TO LEAD A NORMAL LIFE.

THEY'RE MUCH MORE RELATABLE, I THINK, SOMETIMES, THAN EVEN THE MOST DETAILED REPORTING.

WE HEAR FROM THIS FATHER ABOUT THIS TERRIBLE NIGHT AND THIS MISSILE STRIKE, WHERE HIS WIFE IN ONE MOMENT, HIS WIFE, HIS SON, HIS FRIEND, ARE ALL ALIVE, AND THEN TRAGEDY STRUCK.

I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP OF HIM SPEAKING.

>> HIS SON, HIS WIFE, SADLY, CANNOT COME BACK, EVAN, BUT THE FILM CLOSES WITH ANYA TRYING TO SEEK JUSTICE FOR HIM, FOR THIS FATHER, AND MANY OTHERS BY SENDING AN EMAIL TO GERMAN PROSECUTORS.

THAT REALLY IS A -- A CHILLING AND POIGNANT MOMENT IN THE FILM.

>> EXACTLY.

SO, ALL THE WORK THAT THEY DO, THAT WE FOLLOW THEM DOING IN UKRAINE, CULMINATES IN THE MOMENT WHERE THEY PULL THE FILES TOGETHER AND THEY FILE THE FIRST THREE CASES WITH GERMAN FEDERAL PROSECUTORS.

THE CASES ARE INVOLVING THE POET YOU JUST MENTIONED, AND OTHER MEN THAT WERE DETAINED AND EXECUTED.

IT ALSO INVOLVED THE CASE OF ANDREI THERE, WHOSE FAMILY WAS TRAGICALLY KILLED IN THAT MISSILE EXPLOSION.

TWO MISSILES WERE FILED AT THAT CIVILIAN SITE.

AND THE GERMAN PROSECUTORS ARE NOW GOING THROUGH THEIR OWN DUE DILIGENCE TO PURSUE THE CRIMINAL CASES, WHICH IS A MAJOR LANDMARK ADVANCE, FIRST OF ALL, FOR ANYA'S WORK, AND THE TEAM, BUT ALSO, IN TERMS OF USING UNIVERSAL JUST DICTION IN THIS WAY IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR.

AND MORE AND MORE CASES ARE COMING FORWARD.

THE TEAM IS NOT STOPPING THERE.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE FILING IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS AROUND THE WORLD AND IN EUROPE.

SO, THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING POINT, BUT IT SHOWS THAT THE WORK ACTUALLY DOES WORK.

>> ALL OF THIS UNDER THE CLOONEY FOUNDATION, AS WELL.

AND WE SHOULD NOTE FOR OUR VIEWERS AT HOME THAT WANT TO SEE MORE OF ANYA, THEY CAN LOOK AT CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR'S INTERVIEW WITH HER FROM 2014 FROM ANOTHER FILM, WHERE SHE IS HIGHLIGHTED AND IT'S CALLED "E-TEAM," ABOUT DOCUMENTING WAR CRIMES IN SYRIA.

LAURA, EVAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS REALLY POWERFUL FILM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW, WE RETURN TO THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

AND A QUESTION OF MINDS OF MANY PEOPLE THESE DAYS, HOW WILL DONALD TRUMP'S RECENT CONVICTION INFLUENCE WOMEN IN THE POLLING BOOTH?

DEBBIE WALSH IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN POLITICS AT RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, AND SHE SPOKE WITH MICHEL MARTIN ON THIS AND WHAT ENERGIZES WOMEN TO GO OUT AND VOTE.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

DEBBIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU SPENT A LONG TIME STUDYING HOW WOMEN VOTE, HOW THEY RUN FOR OFFICE, BASICALLY HOW THEY FUNCTION SORT OF IN PUBLIC LIFE.

AS DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN POLITICS AT RUTGERS.

I AM CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR REACTION, WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS CONVICTED OF A FELONY.

>> I THINK MY BIG TAKEAWAY FROM THIS IS THAT THIS WAS NOT A SURPRISE IN HIS BEHAVIOR, IT WAS -- THIS WAS NOT OUT OF CHARACTER FOR WHO HE HAS BEEN.

SO, THE BEHAVIOR WASN'T SHOCKING.

I THINK -- I WAS A LITTLE AMAZED THAT THEY MANAGED TO GET UNANIMITY ON ALL 34 COUNTS.

AND I'M VERY CURIOUS TO SEE, AND I'VE BEEN VERY CURIOUS WATCHING SINCE THEN, HOW THIS PLAYS OUT AND HOW THE PUBLIC IS REACTING TO ALL OF THIS.

>> BASED ON YOUR READ OF THE DATA AND BASED ON YOUR KIND OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT, DO YOU THINK THIS CURRENT EVENT, THIS LATEST EVENT WILL HAVE ANY IMPACT ON HOW WOMEN VOTERS PERCEIVE HIM?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS IS THE $64,000 QUESTION.

I THINK FOR A LOT OF US, AFTER THE "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" TAPE, WE THOUGHT, WELL, THIS IS NOT -- THIS IS GOING TO CLINCH THE ELECTION OF HILLARY CLINTON.

BUT WE DID SEE THAT THOSE FOLKS THAT ARE DEVOTED TO HIM WERE WILLING TO LET THAT GO.

NOW, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT WOMEN VOTERS ARE NOT MONOLITHIC.

THERE ARE WOMEN WHO ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED WOMEN AND WOMEN WITHOUT A COLLEGE DEGREE, THERE ARE WOMEN, YOU BREAK DOWN THE WOMEN'S VOTE BY DEMOGRAPHICS AND YOU GET SOME VERY DIFFERENT OUTCOMES.

SO, TO -- THERE'S SORT OF NOT THAT SWEEPING NOTION OF HOW WILL WOMEN VOTE, BUT I THINK FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE SOLIDLY IN HIS CAMP, THE MAGA WOMEN, I DON'T THINK THIS WILL HAVE AN IMPACT ON HOW THEY FEEL.

I THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS, IT MAY EVEN SOLIDIFY HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT HIM.

I THINK THAT FOR SOME OF THOSE MORE MARGINAL WOMEN VOTERS WHO HAVE SUPPORTED HIM, PARTICULARLY THE FIRST TIME AROUND, THEY HAVE BECOME WHAT I THINK OF IN SOME WAYS AS SWING VOTERS, THAT THEY COULD WALK AWAY FROM DONALD TRUMP, THAT THEY ARE NOT HAPPY WITH SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THIS -- OF HIS TIME IN THE PRESIDENCY, PARTICULARLY AROUND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH ISSUES.

AND THIS JUST MAY BE A REMINDER OF WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU GET A DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

AND IT MAY BE MORE THAN THEY CAN HANDLE, AND THEY MAY TURN AWAY, NOW, WILL THEY VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN, I DON'T KNOW.

THEY MAY JUST NOT BE ENGAGED, THEY MAY DISENGAGE FROM THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

>> THIS VERDICT COMES AFTER A DIFFERENT JURY FOUND DONALD TRUMP LIABLE FOR SEXUALLY ABUSING THE ADVICE COLUMNIST E. JEAN CARROLL.

OF COURSE, THIS HAPPENED BEFORE HE WAS A CANDIDATE, BUT THE TESTIMONY ITSELF WAS VERY SORT OF DISTURBING.

SHE WAS AWARDED, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AS A JUDGMENT.

SO, I GUESS THE REASON I RAISE THAT IS THAT THIS COMES AFTER THAT, AND I JUST SORT OF WONDER THE POLITICAL IMPACT OF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS TOGETHER.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT HAS ANY SORT OF CUMULATIVE EFFECT?

>> DONALD TRUMP HAS CHANGED THE NATURE OF OUR POLITICS, AND WHAT IS SEEN AS ACCEPTABLE.

THE IDEA, FRANKLY, THAT YOU COULD GET ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AFTER THE "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" TAPE WAS SHOCKING.

THEN YOU HAD THE E. JEAN CARROLL CASE.

NOW YOU HAVE THE HUSH MONEY CASE.

ALL OF THESE THINGS IN ANOTHER ERA WOULD HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFYING.

TO BE -- FRANKLY, TO BE CONVICTED OF -- ON 34 COUNTS OF FELONY OFFENSES, WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE COMPLETELY DISQUALIFYING.

SO, ALL OF THE NORMS HAVE -- HAVE REALLY BEEN DISRUPTED BY DONALD TRUMP AND THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

AND THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN SO CONFOUNDING IN TERMS OF WATCHING HOW GENDER PLAYS OUT IN ALL OF THIS, BECAUSE I THINK THERE WAS THE ASSUMPTION, ALWAYS, THAT, WELL, HE WOULD LOSE WOMEN.

I'M NOT SURE HE CARES ANYMORE.

ABOUT PICKING UP AND EXPANDING HIS BASE, RIGHT?

HE IS HAPPY WITH HIS BASE.

YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT AFTER ALL OF THIS, WHERE WAS HE SEEN AFTER THE TRIAL?

HE WAS SEEN AT A WRESTLING MATCH, WITH A LOT OF BROS, FRANKLY,CHEERING HIM ON.

AND I THINK HE'S COMFORTABLE WITH THAT AS HIS BASE.

>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE POINTED OUT IN YOUR OWN WRITINGS, IN YOUR ANALYSIS OF POLLING DATA GOING BACK FOR YEARS IS THAT WHITE WOMEN HAVE VOTED REPUBLICAN IN EVERY ELECTION SINCE 2000, IN BUSH V GORE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

WHAT IT COULD MEAN THAT PARTY AFFILIATION TRUMPS -- NO PUN INTENDED, TRUMPS ALL.

>> I THINK THAT WAS TRUE IN THE FIRST GO ROUND.

I THINK WHITE WOMEN WERE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" TAPE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY WERE REPUBLICANS AND THEY VOTED REPUBLICAN.

I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WHITE WOMEN ARE NOT MONOLITHIC.

SO, THERE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED WHITE WOMEN WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC, THERE ARE NONCOLLEGE EDUCATED WHITE WOMEN WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE REPUBLICAN.

THERE ARE SINGLE WHITE WOMEN WHO HAVE LEANED MORE TOWARDS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

ECONOMICS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS, COLLEGE EDUCATION HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS.

AND SO, THERE IS VARIATION EVEN WITHIN THAT DEMOGRAPHIC.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE SEE DRIVING VOTERS IS THE DOBBS DECISION, AND WE FIND THAT WOMEN ARE STILL HAVING ABORTIONS, BUT IT'S BECOME VERY DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

AND WE'VE SEEN THAT THIS HAS HAT AN EFFECT ON WOMEN'S VOTING BEHAVIOR.

CAN YOU SORT OF TALK ABOUT THAT?

SO FAR, THE ONLY WAY THIS HAS PLAYED OUT HAS BEEN IN THE STATES.

BUT WHAT -- WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT HAVE?

>> I THINK THIS IS A MOBILIZING ISSUE.

AND IT'S A MOBILIZING ISSUE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEARNED FROM THE MIDTERMS COULD BE POWERFUL FOR THEM.

YOU KNOW, THE -- THE RED WAVE THAT WAS PREDICTED IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND IT LARGELY DIDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THAT ENERGY THAT WENT INTO THE CAMPAIGNING THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DID, THE PRIORITIZING OF THE ABORTION ISSUE.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, I DID THIS, I'M RESPONSIBLE, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS NOW PINNING IT ON HIM AND SAYING, HE DID THIS.

THIS IS DONALD TRUMP, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT EVEN IN SOME EARLY ADS FROM THE BIDEN -- FROM THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN.

SO, CAMPAIGNS ARE ABOUT -- ARE ABOUT INFORMING VOTERS AROUND ISSUES AND ENERGIZING THEM TO GET OUT TO VOTE.

AND IF THERE'S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS AN IMPETUS TO ACTUALLY SHOW UP TO VOTE, EVEN IF YOU'RE A SOLID DEMOCRATIC VOTER, IF YOU DON'T FEEL ENERGIZED AND YOU DON'T SHOW UP ON ELECTION DAY, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

SO, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT CAN HELP WITH TURNOUT, THAT CAN GET PEOPLE OUT TO VOTE, WOMEN OUT TO VOTE, IN AN ELECTION THAT THEY MIGHT BE A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE DISINTERESTED, I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN SOME PUGH DATA THAT SHOWS THAT VOTERS ARE TIRED.

THE NEWS CARING SO MUCH ABOUT THIS ELECTION ALREADY AND ABOUT POLITICS, AND THEY'RE GETTING BURNT OUT, BUT THIS ISSUE IS VERY PRESSING.

AND I THINK IT CAN BE AN ISSUE THAT WILL TURN OUT WOMEN VOTERS, ENERGIZE THEM AND GET THEM TO THE POLLS.

WE SAW THAT TO BE A POWERFUL FORCE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

>> OKAY, SO, LET'S WHEEL IT AROUND THEN AND TALK ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN, A RECENT REUTERS POLL RELEASED THIS MONTH, WHICH WAS PRIOR TO THE TRUMP CONVICTION, I HAVE TO SAY, SHOWED THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS LOSING SUPPORT AMONG VOTERS WITHOUT COLLEGE DEGREES.

AND THAT'S A BIG GROUP, AND IT'S A DIVERSE GROUP, IT INCLUDES A LOT OF BLACK VOETERS, A LOT OF LATINAS, YOUNG VOTERS, SUBURBAN WOMEN.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK THE PARTY HAS TO BE SPEAKING TO ISSUES THAT FOLKS IN THESE COMMUNITIES CARE ABOUT, AND MAKING THE CASE, WHICH IS WHAT THIS CAMPAIGN WILL NEED TO BE ABOUT, MAKING THE CASE THAT THE PRIORITIES OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, NOT JUST WHAT THEY'VE DONE, BUT WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO, REALLY SPEAKS TO THOSE NEEDS.

THAT'S WHY, PARTICULARLY FOR WOMEN VOTERS, SPEAKING TO THESE ISSUES AROUND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE ARE CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT.

ALSO FOR YOUNG WOMEN, CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THOSE TOP ISSUES FOR VOTERS ARE THE ECONOMY AND IMMIGRATION, WHEN -- WHEN THE MOST RECENT POLLING THAT I'VE SEEN STILL HAS THOSE TWO ISSUES AT THE VERY TOP.

AND ABORTION COMING IN AS A THIRD -- AS A THIRD TOP ISSUE.

IT HAS DEFINITELY MOVED UP.

THIS USED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WAS -- WHEN IT WAS SETTLED AND PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WAS SAFE, THEY DIDN'T GO THERE, THAT WASN'T ON THE TOP OF THEIR AGENDA.

IT HAS DEFINITELY MOVED UP.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE A CASE MADE TO THOSE VOTERS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE THINGS THAT BENEFIT THEM, AND IT HAS TO MAKE THE CASE THAT THE PLANS FOR THE FUTURE ALSO INCLUDE THEM.

AND THIS IS A CHALLENGE THAT I THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS HAD, WHICH IS, TAKING GROUPS OF VOTERS FOR GRANTED.

YOU KNOW, BLACK WOMEN VOTERS HAVE BEEN THE BACKBONE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THEY HAVE BEEN THE GROUP THAT HAS BEEN MOST CONSISTENT, MOST THERE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND GOTTEN CANDIDATES ELECTED ACROSS THE BOARD.

BUT BLACK WOMEN VOTERS ARE DEMANDING, AS THEY SHOULD, TO SEE ACTUAL BENEFIT FROM THAT VOTE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU HAVE DONE FOR US?

AND THAT'S WHAT THE CAMPAIGN HAS TO BE ABOUT.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE -- THE DEMOCRATS AND THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN IN PARTICULAR, HAVE SPOKEN ENOUGH ABOUT THE FUTURE?

I MEAN, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS, HE SAID WHAT HE PLANS TO DO, HE'S GOING TO TRY TO PURGE THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY OF PEOPLE WHO HE THINKS ARE OBSTRUCTIONIST.

HAVE THE DEMOCRATS ANSWERED THAT WITH ANYTHING?

>> I THINK THAT THE CHALLENGE THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE HAD IS CLEARLY ANNUNCIATING WHAT HAS BEEN DONE OVER THESE FOUR YEARS, AND THE WAYS IN WHICH IT'S BENEFITED PEOPLE.

IN DAY-TO-DAY LIFE, EVEN IF INFLATION SEEMS TO BE COMING DOWN AND THE ECONOMY SEEMS TO BE ON A BETTER FOOTING, THE GENERAL PUBLIC ISN'T FEELING IT, AND IF THEY DON'T FEEL IT, IT'S NOT REAL FOR THEM.

BUT I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, I THINK THERE HAS TO BE STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT'S COMING IN THE FUTURE.

AND IT CAN'T JUST BE, BE VERY AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP.

IT AS HAS TO BE ABOUT THE VALUE ADDED THAT FOUR MORE YEARS OF THE DEMOCRATS HOLDING THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND POSSIBLY GAINING CONTROL OF THE HOUSE, WHAT THAT WILL MEAN IN THEIR LIVES.

AND THAT HAS TO BE ARTICULATED IN A VERY CLEAR WAY.

SO THAT FOLKS FEEL THAT IT'S TO THEIR ADVANTAGE TO HAVE DEMOCRATS IN CONTROL.

>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO DRILL DOWN AGAIN AS WOMEN AS VOTERS, RECOGNIZING THAT WOMEN ARE CERTAINLY NOT A MONOLITH, BUT IS THERE SOMETHING THAT HAS CHANGED FOR WOMEN IN THE WAY WOMEN SEE ELECTIONS?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT EVEN -- EVEN IN THE UPSIDE DOWN WORLD, WHERE THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IS OUT THE WINDOW, WE STILL SEE, WHEN YOU AGGREGATE THE WOMEN'S VOTE, A GENDER GAP.

WE STILL SEE WOMEN VOTING IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN MEN.

WE SEE THAT WOMEN OVERALL ARE MORE LIKELY TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE THAN MEN.

LESS LIKELY TO SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE THAN MEN.

AND EVEN WITHIN THE SUPPORT THAT DONALD TRUMP GETS, IT IS LESS THAN IT IS MORE FROM MEN THAN FROM WOMEN.

SO, THERE IS STILL -- THERE IS STILL THAT GENDER GAP.

AND WE STILL HAVE SEEN WOMEN OUTVOTING MEN.

IN THE LAST ELECTION, YOU KNOW, 10 MILLION MORE WOMEN VOTED THAN DID MEN.

SO, AT THE END OF THE DAY, EVEN IN ALL THE CHAOS, EVEN IN ALL OF THE UPSIDE DOWNESS OF THE WORLD, WE ARE STILL SEEING THAT PATTERN OF WOMEN VOTING DIFFERENTLY THAN MEN, AND SEEING WOMEN OUTVOTING MEN.

>> SO, THE PROBLEM THEN FOR THE DEMOCRATS IS THE ENTHUSIASM GAP.

THAT IS THEIR BIG -- >> THAT IS A BIG CHALLENGE FOR THE DEMOCRATS, THAT TURNING OUT THOSE WOMEN FROM VARIOUS DEMOGRAPHIC GROUPS, FROM VARIOUS EDUCATION BACKGROUNDS, GETTING THEM TO SHOW UP AT THE POLLS TO FEEL THEY HAVE A STAKE IN THIS ELECTION, THAT THEY ARE NOT SO TURNED OFF, COMPLETELY FROM POLITICS,.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP DID DO BY GETTING ELECTED WAS HE ENERGIZED WOMEN, RIGHT?

WE SAW WOMEN RUNNING AT RECORD NUMBERS IN 2018, WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT THIS TIME.

WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE NOT NOT SEEING WOMEN RUNNING, BUT WE'RE NOT BREAKING RECORDS.

WE'RE -- WE SAW WOMEN ENGAGING IN ACTIVISM IN WAYS THAT WE HAD NOT SEEN IN A LONG TIME.

YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO, I THINK, FELT LIKE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN POLITICS SUDDENLY FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED TO BE INVOLVED IN POLITICS.

BUT I THINK THERE'S A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EXHAUSTION FROM POLITICS, I THINK THERE'S WATCHING CONGRESS LOOK BROKEN, LOOKING LIKE THIS SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK, AND THEY'RE TIRED.

AND THEY'RE JUST TIRED OF IT.

AND SO, MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE TAPPING INTO SOME ISSUES THAT ARE REALLY KEY, AND, AGAIN, MAKING VOTERS FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE A REAL STAKE IN THE OUTCOME, THAT IT MATTERS TO THEIR LIVES, WHAT THE OUTCOME OF THIS ELECTION IS.

REGARDLESS OF, YOU KNOW, YOUR POSITION ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND THE ISSUES HE CARES ABOUT, HE HAS MADE HIS VOTERS BELIEVE THAT THEIR FUTURES ARE DEPENDENT ON HIM GETTING ELECTED.

THAT THEIR LIVES AND THEIR LIVELIHOODS AND THEIR FUTURES HINGE ON HIS ELECTION.

AND IN SOME WAY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TO -- THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, HAS TO -- AND THE DEMOCRATS, HAVE TO MAKE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS AND INDEPENDENT VOTERS BELIEVE THAT ABOUT ELECTING DEMOCRATS.

>> AS PART OF YOUR WORK AT THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN POLITICS, YOU KEEP TRACK OF WHAT WOMEN VOTERS ARE DOING, BUT YOU ALSO KEEP TRACK OF WHAT WOMEN CANDIDATES ARE DOING.

WHAT ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO?

WHAT ARE YOU KEEPING YOUR EYE ON AS WE HEAD TO NOVEMBER?

>> WELL, WE'RE KEEPING OUR EYE ON CANDIDATES ACROSS THE BOARD.

OUR STATE LEGISLATIVE NUMBERS ARE ACTUALLY LOOKING A LITTLE BIT BETTER THAN OUR FEDERAL CANDIDATES, AND I THINK WE MAY BE SEEING RECORD NUMBERS THERE, WE'RE STILL -- THERE'S STILL LOTS OF PRIMARIES LEFT TO HAPPEN.

BUT WE'RE LOOKING PARTICULARLY AT THE STATES NOW, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT'S GOING ON IS HAPPENING AT THE STATES.

AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF WOMEN WHO MAY HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT RUNNING, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE LOOKING, AGAIN, AT CONGRESS IS A PLACE THAT'S BROKEN, BUT STATE LEGISLATURES HAVE A REAL IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, PARTICULARLY AROUND THESE ISSUES AROUND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH, RIGHT?

WE'RE ALSO LOOKING NOW IN WAYS THAT WE HAVEN'T IN THE PAST, LOOKING AT WOMEN AS DONORS TO CANDIDATES, AND ALSO THE MONEY THAT FLOWS INTO WOMEN'S CANDIDACIES, AND REALLY TRYING TO DO SOME DEEP DIVE ANALYSIS AND UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WOMEN AS DONORS, WHO ARE THEY?

WE MAY NOT LOVE THE FACT THAT MONEY PLAYS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART IN POLITICS, BUT THAT IS THE REALITY.

SO, HOPING THAT WOMEN ARE -- ARE HELPING GET THE CANDIDATES THEY CARE ABOUT ELECTED BY SUPPORTING THEM FINANCIALLY, AS WELL.

>> DEBBIE WALSH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, REMEMBERING ALEXEI NAVALNY.

THE OPPOSITION LEADER WHO DIED IN A RUSSIAN PRISON IN FEBRUARY.

SEEN AS A HERO BY MANY ON BOTH SIDES INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF HIS COUNTRY.

AND YESTERDAY WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS 48th BIRTHDAY.

IN BERLIN, THOUSANDS ATTENDED A CONCERT IN HIS MEMORY, CHANTING THE SLOGAN "RUSSIA WILL BE FREE."

NAVALNY'S WIFE, WHO ALSO ATTENDED THE CONCERT, HAS ACCUSED RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN OF MURDERING HER HUSBAND.

THE KREMLIN HASDENIED ANY INVOLVEMENT IN HIS DEATH.

NAVALNY WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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