June 10, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE CENTER IS HOLDING.

>> BUT THE FAR RIGHT IS SURGING.

IN FRANCE, MACRON MAKES A SURPRISE ELECTION GAMBLE.

WE HAVE ANALYSIS ON THIS EUROPEAN TURNING POINT.

THEN -- >> REGRETTABLY, NETANYAHU IS PREVENTING US FROM TRUE VICTORY.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE LEAVING THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT TODAY.

>> POLITICAL TURMOIL EXPLODES IN ISRAEL, AS MORE DETAILS EMERGE OVER ITS RAID TO FREE HOSTAGES, WITH HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS KILLED.

PLUS -- >> IT WAS ALMOST LIKE I HAD A BURST OF OXYGEN THAT GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK FOR CLEARLY AND STRATEGICALLY ABOUT HOW I BECAME SO DEPRESSED.

>> TRIPPY.

THE PERIL AND PROMISE OF PSYCHEDELICS.

ARE THEY SAFE TO USE FOR MENTAL HEALTH THERAPY?

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" ERNESTO LONDONO TAKES WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS OWN EXPERIENCE.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN THIS RECORD YEAR FOR ELECTIONS, ONE OF THE BIGGEST EXERCISES IN DEMOCRACY IS FILLING 720 SEATS FROM 27 NATIONS IN EUROPEAN PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS.

AND AS RESULTS CONTINUE TO COME IN, A SPLIT SCREEN IMAGE IS EMERGING.

ESTABLISHMENT PARTIES DID WELL IN MANY COUNTRIES, AND EU COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN'S CENTRIST EUROPEAN PEOPLE'S PARTY WILL REMAIN THE LARGEST GROUP, BUT SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THE FAR RIGHT ACROSS THE CONTINENT HAD STRONG SHOWINGS.

>> THE CENTER IS HOLDING.

BUT IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT THE EXTREMES ON THE LEFT AND ON THE RIGHT HAVE GAINED SUPPORT.

AND THIS IS WHY THE RESULT COMES WITH GREAT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PARTIES IN THE CENTER.

>> IN FRANCE, MARINE LE PEN AND HER FAR RIGHT ALLIES WON TWICE AS MANY SEATS AS CENTRIST PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON'S PARTY.

>> THIS IS A SITUATION THAT I CANNOT COME TO TERMS WITH.

THE RISE OF NATIONALISTS, OF DEMAGOGUES, IS A DANGER FOR OUR NATION, BUT ALSO, FOR OUR EUROPE, FOR FRANCE'S PLACE IN EUROPE, AND IN THE WORLD.

>> AND SO, HE CALLED A SNAP ELECTION, A MASSIVE POLITICAL GAMBLE, SAYING THAT IT IS A TIME FOR, QUOTE, MUCH-NEEDED CLARIFICATION.

NOW, ON D-DAY LAST THURSDAY, ON THE BEACHES AND IN THE CEMETERIES OF NORMANDY, WORLD LEADERS AND MILITARY VETERANS CELEBRATED 80 YEARS SINCE DEFEATING FASCISM IN EUROPE, AND LAUNCHING THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC POST-WORLD WAR ORDER.

SO, DO THESE EUROPEAN ELECTION RESULTS SIGNAL A LONG-LASTING SHIFT?

JOINING ME NOW IS ITALY'S FORMER PRIME MINISTER MATTEO RENZI.

HIS CENTER-LEFT PARTY FAILED TO WIN ANY SEATS.

AND JOURNALIST CHRISTINE OCKRENT.

SHE JOINS ME FROM PARIS.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

SO, MATTEO RENZI, FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU, ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT YOUR CENTER-LEFT PARTY WON NO SEATS, AND THAT URSULA VON DER LEYEN SAYS THE CENTER IS STILL HOLDING?

>> THE PROBLEM IN EUROPE IS THE CHAOS IN THE ORGANIZATION OF ELECTIONS.

WHY?

BECAUSE THERE IS NOT A DIRECT ELECTION, AND URSULA, TODAY, COULD SAY, I WON.

ALSO, IF THERE IS NOT THE SURE MESSAGE ABOUT THAT RESULT.

SO, THE FIRST MESSAGE FOR OUR PEOPLE, AT LEAST WATCHING THE PROGRAM, IS, EUROPEAN INSTITUTION IS VERY COMPLICATED.

27 COUNTRIES.

I THINK, I'M NOT SURPRISED FOR THE RESULT.

I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT EFFECT IS THE DECISION OF THE FRENCH PRESIDENT OF REPUBLIC TO CALL FOR EARLY ELECTION FOR THE NEW LEGISLATIVE ELECTION.

THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT EFFECT OF THIS EUROPEAN ELECTION, ABOUT THE FUTURE.

I THINK THERE IS THE SAME MAJORITY, WILL BE THE SAME MAJORITY OF THE LAST FIVE YEARS, AND OF COURSE URSULA COULD BE THE NEW PRESIDENT, EXACTLY AS IN 2019.

>> OKAY, SO, BEFORE I TURN TO CHRISTINE OCKRENT ABOUT MACRON, ARE YOU SAYING IT'S -- YOU AGREE WITH MACRON'S DECISION?

>> I TOTALLY AGREE.

I THINK IT'S A VERY INTELLIGENT DECISION.

WHY?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT MACRON YESTERDAY HAD A VERY TERRIBLE FAILURE, A TERRIBLE DEFEAT.

FAR RIGHT PARTY ACHIEVED A RESULT OF 34%.

WITH CALLING EARLY ELECTION, THIS IS MY VIEW, MACRON COULD USE THE PARTICULAR FRENCH SYSTEM AND FOR THAT, COULD BECAME, I THINK, COULD WIN THE LEGISLATIVE ELECTION, BECAUSE THERE IS NOT ONLY ONE CAN VOTING AS IN THE EUROPEAN ELECTION, BUT THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT VOTING IN THE NEXT THREE WEEKS, SO IT'S A VERY TACTICAL -- IT'S A VERY -- SYSTEM, BUT I COME FROM FLORENCE, AND LOVE MACK VELLY, SO, I LOVE THE IDEA.

>> LET ME ASK CHRISTINE OCKRENT, THEN, DO YOU THINK -- BECAUSE WE HEARD AT PARTY HEADQUARTERS LAST NIGHT, WHEN HE MADE THAT REALLY SURPRISE ANNOUNCEMENT ON FRENCH TELEVISION, EVERYBODY WAS SAYING, OH, NO, THEY HELD THEIR HEADS IN DISBELIEF.

BUT THEN, OTHERS HAVE SAID IT IS AN IMPORTANT GAMBLE TO MAKE AT THIS TIME.

CHRISTINE, DO YOU AGREE WITH >> WELL, MACK VELLY IS NOT QUITE AS POPULAR HERE IN FRANCE AS, OBVIOUSLY, HE IS IN FLORENCE, BUT IT IS TRUE THAT IN A SENSE THE FRENCH PRESIDENT HAD VERY LITTLE CHOICE.

HAD HE CONDUCTED, YOU KNOW, AND SAID, OH, IT'S JUST THE EUROPEAN ELECTION, LET'S DO BUSINESS AS USUAL, THE FRENCH VOTERS WOULD HAVE BEEN LET DOWN AND VERY MUCH DESPISED.

SO, IT IS A HUGE GAMBLE FOR MACRON, AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED, OF COURSE, HE STAYS FOR ANOTHER THREE YEARS, BUT THE IDEA IS PROBABLY TO TRY AND SPLIT THE -- WHATEVER IS LEFT OF THE TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES AND TO SPLIT ALSO WHATEVER IS LEFT OF -- ON THE LEFT SIDE, BETWEEN THE EXTREMISTS AND THE SORT OF CENTER-LEFT.

WITH THE IDEA THAT HIS OWN PARTY COULD RESUSCITATE, SO TO SPEAK, WITH THIS LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS.

OF COURSE, THE ISSUE IS THAT IT'S A VERY SHORT CAMPAIGN, THE SECOND ROUND WILL BE ON JULY 7th, THAT IS TO SAY, THREE WEEKS BEFORE THE OLYMPICS HERE IN PARIS, WITH, OF COURSE, THE THREAT OF STRIKES BY THE TRADE UNIONS, SO, IT'S A VERY SORT OF GOAL-LESS GAMBLE.

YOU REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE, THE GOAL WHO WOULD SAY, IT'S ME OR CHAOS.

WELL, IT WELL BE THAT EMMANUEL MACRON, IN THIS GESTURE, HAS THE SAME PROPHESY.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU THIS THEN, BECAUSE IF HE DOESN'T -- IF THIS GAMBLE DOES NOT PAY OFF, IT IS LIKELY THAT THE FORMER NATIONAL FRONT, NOW CALLED THE NATIONAL RALLY, THEIR 28-YEAR-OLD LEADER, JORDAN BARDELLO, WHO LED THE M.E.P.

SLATE, HE MIGHT BECOME, YOU KNOW, HE MIGHT BECOME A PRIME MINISTER IN A SORT OF A COHABITATION.

NOW, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAS CALLED HIM A CLEAN CULT TIKTOK STAR KNOWN FOR HIS LOVE OF CANDY.

IS THAT A LITTLE NORMALIZING THE FAR RIGHT?

HOW DO YOU -- WOULD YOU WRITE THAT ABOUT HIM, CHRISTINE?

>> WELL, I MIGHT EVEN SAY SOMETHING WORSE.

THAT HE HASN'T DONE A STROKE OF WORK, WHEN HE -- WHEN HE WAS ELECTED TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT IN THE FORMER EUROPEAN LEGISLATURE, AND HE KNOWS VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE -- THE WORKING OF THE GOVERNMENT.

BUT THE -- IT'S OBVIOUS, CHRISTIANE THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THESE DAYS, IT'S NOT COMPETENCE THAT MATTERS SO MUCH, AND, INDEED, DONALD TRUMP IS A LIVING PROOF THAT VOTERS DO NOT REALLY CARE ALL THAT MUCH FOR COMPETENCE.

>> WELL -- >> AND IN THIS COUNTRY, IN FRANCE, I THINK YOU CAN SUM IT UP, YOU KNOW, THE THREE Is.

INFLATION, IMMIGRATION, IRRITATION.

IRRITATION AT MACRON AND HIS RATHER SORT OF INTELLECTUAL, VERBOSE STYLE OF TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE, AND I THINK IT IS A MOMENT OF COLLECTIVE ANGER AND WE'LL SEE HOW THIS VERY SHORT CAMPAIGN AND THESE TWO ROUNDS OF ELECTIONS, WHETHER INDEED MACRON'S GAMBLE WILL PAY OFF.

BUT HE'S ACTUALLY GAMBLE, OBVIOUSLY, WITH THE COUNTRY.

>> WELL, YEAH, AND MATTEO RENZI, CHRISTINE TALKED ABOUT IMMIGRATION, AND THAT DOES SEEM TO BE, EVEN IN YOUR COUNTRY, A MAJOR CENTER, A TENT POLE AROUND WHICH THE FAR RIGHT GATHER.

NOW, BARDELLA IN FRANCE SAID, OUR CIVILIZATION CAN DIE.

IS THAT WHAT THEY THINK IN ITALY, MATTEO RENZI, AND WHY MELONI AND HER PARTY DID WELL?

VERY WELL?

>> REALLY, THE REALITY IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE ELECTORAL CAMPAIGN.

LOOK AT THIS NUMBER.

WHEN I WAS PRIME MINISTER IN 2015, THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, ATTACKED ME AND SHE TOLD ME, MATTEO, YOU OPEN THE DOORS TO AN INVASION.

THE NUMBERS OF MIGRANTS FROM AFRICA TO ITALY WAS IN 2015 MORE OR LESS 150,000.

OKAY.

LAST YEAR, WHEN GIORGIA MELONI BECAME PRIME MINISTER, THE NUMBER OF MIGRANTS WHO ARRIVE IN ITALY WAS EXACTLY THE SAME OF MY YEAR, BUT SHE CONCEDED THE NUMBER, A NORMAL NUMBER, A REGULAR NUMBER.

WHAT MEANS THAT?

THERE IS, IN THE FAR RIGHT, AN APPROACH IDEOLOGICAL, AGAINST MIGRATION.

AND THERE IS NOT A CONCRETE ATTENTION ABOUT THE NUMBERS, THE REALITY.

IT IS AN INSTRUMENT OF PROPAGANDA.

AND I THINK THE SAME WILL BE IN FRANCE UNTIL THEY WILL GO TO THE GOVERNMENT.

I HOPE THAT WILL NOT VERY SOON, BUT THAT IS THE MESSAGE WILL COME FROM ITALY.

WHEN GIORGIA MELONI, SHE WAS LEADER OF OPPOSITION, THE SAME NUMBER TODAY, PRESENT, IN ITALY, EIGHT YEARS AGO, WAS A DISASTER, WAS AN INVASION, NOW, IT'S REGULARITY, IT'S NORMALITY.

AND IT IS BUSINESS -- NORMAL BUSINESS.

>> YEAH, BUSINESS AS USUAL.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE GIORGIA MELONI ARE DESCRIBED AS SHOWING HOW, YOU KNOW, RIGHT WING EUROPE WILL GO.

THAT SHE IS, YOU KNOW, VERY CLOSE TO HER EU ALLIES ON FOREIGN POLICY, AND SHE SPEAKS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE AT HOME.

LIK IMMIGRATION.

SO-CALLED FAMILY VALUES AGAINST LGBTQ AND ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF.

WHY IS IT, DO YOU THINK, MATTEO RENZI, THAT ACCORDING TO POLITICO, YOUNGER VOTERS ARE BACKING ANTI-IMMIGRATION AND ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT PARTIES IN NUMBERS EQUAL TO AND EVEN EXCEEDING OLDER VOTERS NOW?

WHY IS THAT?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION IN ITALY AND IN THE REST OF THE EUROPE.

FIRST, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT GIORGIA MELONI.

THE GIORGIA MELONI IN THE OPPOSITION AND THE GIORGIA MELONI IN THE GOVERNMENT.

ABOUT -- A TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON, THINKING ABOUT RUSSIA, THINKING ABOUT USA, THINKING ABOUT EUROPE, THINKING ABOUT ALSO MIGRATION, AS SHE CHANGES EVERY TYPE OF POSITION.

ABOUT THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE VOTE, I THINK THAT THERE ARE TODAY, THERE IS TODAY A EUROPEAN UNION VERY FRAGMENTED, AND I THINK THE RISK FOR EUROPEAN UNION IS -- BECAME IRRELEVANT IN THE PANORAMA AROUND THE WORLD.

THERE IS NOT A ROLE OF EUROPE BETWEEN USA AND CHINA, BETWEEN AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST, ABOUT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

SO, THE REAL FRUSTRATION OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE, A LOT OF TIMES WENT TO THE VOTES FOR THE FAR RIGHT, BUT IF YOU LOOK ABOUT THE NUMBERS, THE NUMBERS ARE SIMILAR TO THE TRADITIONAL NUMBERS.

ALSO FIVE YEARS AGO, THE NUMBERS ARE THE SAME.

THE PROBLEM, IN MY VIEW, IS IN THE NEXT SOME MONTHS, IN GERMANY.

WE SPOKE ABOUT FRANCE, BUT THE NEXT PROBLEM WILL BE IN GERMANY, BECAUSE THE RESULT OF THE CHANCELLOR IS VERY NEGATIVE.

>> OKAY, SO, CHRISTINE OCKRENT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TWO BIGGEST, MOST POWERFUL EUROPEAN NATIONS, AND THEY ARE FRANCE AND GERMANY, SORRY PRIME MINISTER RENZI, BUT FRANCE AND GERMANY ARE THE POWERHOUSES IN EUROPE, AND, YEAH, CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ GOT A SHELLACKING, AFD DID VERY WELL, ET CETERA.

SO, I WANT YOU TO WEIGH THAT, CHRISTINE, WITH WHAT SOME COUNTRIES -- ORBAN DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS EXPECTED.

IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THE CENTER-LEFT DID WELL ENOUGH.

AND THE CENTER-RIGHT.

IT WASN'T EXTREMISTS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF FRANCE AND GERMANY HAVING THIS MASSIVE TILT TOWARDS THE FAR RIGHT?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY THE POLITICAL SYSTEMS ARE EXTREMELY DIFFERENT BETWEEN FRANCE AND GERMANY.

AS FAR AS FRANCE IS CONCERNED, IT USED TO BE THAT PEOPLE WERE NOT THAT INTERESTED IN EUROPEAN ELECTIONS.

AND INDEED, FORMER GOVERNMENTS, YOU KNOW, FIVE YEARS AGO, TEN YEARS AGO, WOULD BE SORT OF TURNED DOWN BY VOTERS.

BUT NOT AS HUGE A MARGIN AS INDEED HAPPENED YESTERDAY.

AND WHAT IS PARTICULARLY STRIKING IS THAT EMMANUEL MACRON, WHATEVER MISTAKES HE MAY HAVE COMMITTED ON THE -- ON THE INTERNAL FRONT, HE'S A STAUNCH EUROPEAN.

AND, INDEED, HIS MARK ON THE WAY THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS DEVELOPED, HIS POLICIES TOWARDS UKRAINE, WITH A VERY HEAVY EUROPEAN CALENDAR IN THE COMING WEEKS, NEXT THURSDAY, THERE'S A G7 SUMMIT IN ITALY, THEN YOU HAVE NEXT WEEK AND IN SWITZERLAND, PEACE CONFERENCE ABOUT UKRAINE, THEN YOU HAVE IN JULY, NATO SUMMIT.

AND SO, HAVING SUCH A HUGE INTERNAL CRISIS, WHICH IS REALLY UNDERMINING MACRON'S ABILITY TO -- TO INFLUENCE THE EUROPEAN PROCESS, AS HE'S BEEN TRYING TO DO SO FOR THE PAST SEVEN YEARS NOW, IT'S -- IT'S REALLY ANOTHER HUGE OBSTACLE TO HIS OWN REPUTATION AND TO HIS OWN LEADERSHIP.

>> UH-HUH.

YEAH.

>> AND SO, WE'LL SEE HOW, WHETHER HIS GAMBLE WILL PAY OFF, AND WHETHER HE CAN RESUSCITATE AND FIND NEW LEGITIMACY, NOT ONLY VIS A VIS THE FRENCH PEOPLE, BUT ALSO HIS EUROPEAN PARTNERS.

>> AND ON THAT NOTE, MATTEO RENZI, DO YOU THINK THAT THESE RESULTS WILL EFFECT THE WAY EUROPE -- LET'S JUST SAY HELPS UKRAINE.

WILL IT EFFECT EUROPE, YOU KNOW, IN HOW IT'S TRYING TO HELP UKRAINE IN THIS BATTLE?

>> YES.

I THINK THAT -- I THINK EUROPEAN POSITION IS VERY FRAGMENTED, BECAUSE THERE IS THE POSITION OF PRESIDENT MACRON, AND ALSO THE CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ.

BUT I BELIEVE THE REAL QUESTION IS, WE NEED A EUROPEAN ARMY, AS EUROPEAN INSTITUTION.

THIS IS MY PERSONAL VIEW.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE AN ANSWER ABOUT UKRAINE, AN ANSWER ABOUT MIDDLE EAST, BUT THE REAL PROBLEM FROM 1954, FROM THE DECISION OF GENERAL DE GAULLE, WE NEED A EUROPEAN INSTRUMENT, AND THAT WOULD BE THE EUROPEAN ARMY.

USUALLY IT WAS FRANCE THAT WOULD DECIDE TO REFUSE THAT APPROACH.

I HOPE IN THE NEXT YEARS WE CAN ARRIVE TO A EUROPEAN ARMY, ALSO BECAUSE THAT IS THE FIRST STEP TO GO IN THE DIRECTION OF UNITED STATES OF EUROPE, AND THAT IS MY DREAM, BUT I'M DREAMER, I KNOW.

>> WELL, PRIME MINISTER MATTEO RENZI, CHRISTINE OCKRENT, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NEXT, A SENSE OF URGENCY, THE WORDS OF THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN, AS HE DESCRIBED THE PROSPECT OF A HOSTAGE DEAL AND CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, AS LAID OUT BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHICH RIGHT NOW APPEARS TO BE RECEDING.

WITH THE RESIGNATION FROM THE WAR CABINET OF OPPOSITION LEADER BENNY GANTZ AND HIS PARTY, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WILL LIKELY BE EVER MORE RELIANT ON HIS FAR RIGHT EXTREMIST COALITION PARTNERS.

ALSO, MORE DETAILS ARE NOW EMERGING ABOUT THE ISRAELI RAID THAT RESCUED FOUR OF THE OCTOBER 7th HOSTAGES.

AT THE SAME TIME, KILLING HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS.

FIGURES ISRAEL DISPUTES.

HERE ARE CORRESPONDENTS OREN LIBERMAN AND PAULA HANCOCKS.

>> IN A HOSPITAL IN CENTRAL ISRAEL, THEY HUGGED AS IF THERE WAS NO TOMORROW, BECAUSE FOR SO LONG, THEY FEARED THERE WOULDN'T BE.

FOUR ISRAELI HOSTAGES WERE RESCUED FROM GAZA UNTIL AN ISRAELI OPERATION ON SATURDAY, AFTER EIGHT MONTHS OF CAPTIVITY.

AMONG THE RESCUED, ONE OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN HOSTAGES, NOA, REUNITED WITH HER FATHER HERE.

VIDEO FROM OCTOBER 7th SHOWED HER PLEADING FOR HELP AS KIDNAPPERS DROVE HER INTO GAZA.

HER FATHER THANKED THE ISRAELI MILITARY FOR THE RESCUE.

BUT REUNIONS LIKE THIS REMAIN ALL TOO RARE.

THIS IS ONLY THE THIRD SUCCESSFUL ISRAELI RESCUE OPERATION SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

THIS WOMAN REUNITED WITH HER SON ONE DAY BEFORE HER BIRTHDAY.

>> THERE ARE STILL 120 HOSTAGES IN GAZA, AND WE WANT A DEAL NOW.

>> THE DARING DAYTIME OPERATION IN THE REFUGEE CAMP IN CENTRAL GAZA LIFTED THE SPIRITS OF A NATION.

BUT UNITY WAS FLEETING, AS ANTI-GOVERNMENT PROTESTS DEMANDED A DEAL TO SECURE THE RELEASE OF THE REMAINING HOSTAGES AND A CEASE-FIRE.

>> FOR THOSE ON THE GROUND, IT WAS THE DEADLIEST DAY IN SIX MONTHS, ACCORDING TO GAZA OFFICIALS.

CAPTURING THE MOMENT OF IMPACT OF ISRAELI AIR STRIKES.

SUSTAINED GUN FIRE FOLLOWED.

THE IDF SAYS THERE WERE FIERCE GUN BATTLES WITH HAMAS THROUGHOUT THE OPERATION, BUT DID NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS CLAIM.

THEN, A CONSTANT STREAM OF DEAD AND INJURED ARRIVE AT TWO NEARBY HOSPITALS.

THIS HOSPITAL OVERWHELMED BY THE SHEER NUMBER OF TRAUMA CASES.

THE BREAKDOWN OF FIGHTERS VERSUS CIVILIANS IS UNKNOWN, BUT WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE SEEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THIS HOSPITAL.

GAZA OFFICIALS AND HOSPITAL DIRECTORS SAY MORE THAN 270 WERE KILLED, HUNDREDS MORE INJURED.

SPARKING CRIES OF A MASSACRE FROM SOME COUNTRIES, INCLUDING THE EU'S TOP DIPLOMAT.

ISRAEL CLAIMS LESS THAN 100 DIED, BLAMING HAMAS FOR THE SHOCKINGLY HIGH DEATH TOLL.

CNN CANNOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY EITHER SIDE'S FIGURES.

AS RESIDENTS DEAL WITH THE DEVASTATION LEFT BEHIND, SURVIVORS STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED.

"I AM 60 YEARS OLD," THIS MAN SAYS, "AND HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

A BARRAGE OF HEAVY GUN FIRE, ARTILLERY, MISSILES, ROCKETS, IT WAS SOMETHING UNIMAGINABLE TO THE HUMAN MIND."

>> BOTH PAULA AND OREN REPORTING FROM TEL AVIV.

FOR MORE ON THIS, AND THE POLITICAL SITUATION INSIDE ISRAEL, I'M JOINED BY TZIPI LIVNI, THE FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER.

AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

I KNOW WE HAVE -- >> HELLO, CHRISTIANE.

>> HELLO.

SO, LET ME ASK YOU, TZIPI LIVNI, I JUST WANT TO KNOW YOUR REACTION.

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY HAPPY, LIKE EVERYBODY IN ISRAEL, THAT THESE FOUR HOSTAGES WERE RELEASED.

SO, TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THE COST, THE COST OF THE PALESTINIAN DEATHS.

NOW, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAYS LESS THAN 100 PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED.

NEARLY 300.

>> CHRISTIANE, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN TEARS FROM HAPPINESS, AND IT WAS SO TOUCHING TO SEE THESE YOUNG PEOPLE COMING BACK HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES, AND YET, WE HAVE 120 HOSTAGES THAT ARE IN THE HANDS OF HAMAS, AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE WAITING FOR THEM TO COME BACK.

BUT LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THE COST.

IT'S NOT LIKE WE ARE LOOKING FOR CIVILIANS TO KILL.

HAMAS PUT THESE HOSTAGES IN THIS HIGHLY POPULATED CENTER.

WE ONLY WANTED, THE ISRAELI ARMY, JUST WANTED TO TAKE THEM OUT.

AND THEY WERE TARGETED.

YOU KNOW THAT WHILE DOING THIS OPERATION, HAMAS TRIED TO STOP IT.

SO, PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING IN THESE PLACES.

SO, WHEN YOUR NEIGHBOR IS COOPERATING WITH HAMAS, TAKING A YOUNG WOMAN OR OTHERS TO THEIR HOMES, THESE ARE THE COSTS.

SO, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ISRAEL DOING WHAT IS NEEDED.

THESE PEOPLE, THESE YOUNG PEOPLE WERE TAKEN, THEIR FREEDOM WAS TAKEN.

THEY WERE JUST IN A PARTY.

AND NOW, YOU KNOW, SHOULD WE NOW THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE ARE TRYING TO RELEASE THEM AND HAMAS IS TARGETING OUR FORCES WHILE THEY'RE TRYING JUST TO BRING THESE CIVILIANS BACK HOME?

EXCUSE ME, THIS IS NOT A RIGHT EXAMPLE TO SPEAK ABOUT TWO SIDES.

NOT THIS TIME.

I'M SORRY, CHRISTIANE.

>> TZIPI, I SAID RELEASE, OF COURSE, I MEANT RESCUE.

THEY WERE RESCUED.

YOU PROBABLY KNOW, YOU KNOW, MUCH BETTER THAN I DO THAT SEVEN HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN RESCUED, THREE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY YOUR OWN FORCES, AND 100-PLUS WERE RELEASED DURING NEGOTIATIONS.

SO, IN A RATIONAL WAY, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO GET MORE OUT THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS, AND I ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY, BECAUSE IN THAT REPORT, ONE OF THE MOTHERS, IN FACT, NOA'S MOTHER, I BELIEVE IT WAS NOA'S MOTHER WHO WAS RELEASED, SHE SAID, WE WANT A DEAL NOW, NO MORE OF THESE KINDS OF OPERATIONS.

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID.

>> OF COURSE.

OKAY.

AND ALSO -- BUT YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT -- I DO NOT SUGGEST THAT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, TO RESCUE THEM, SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID THIS IS A DEAL THAT HAMAS SHOULD ACCEPT, AND THIS IS WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION ARE SAYING PUBLICLY ALL TO HAMAS.

WE ARE ALSO IN FAVOR OF A DEAL, BUT UNTIL NOW, HAMAS DOESN'T GIVE AN ANSWER OR GIVE -- REFUSE TO GIVE THIS DEAL, AND AS WAS SAID BEFORE, THIS IS A DEAL THAT IS BEING SUPPORTED BY THE UNITED STATES, SO, I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THIS IS ONLY ONE WAY, BUT ANY HOSTAGE THAT IS BEING FREE, IT'S -- IT'S A JOY.

THIS WAY OR THE OTHER.

>> OF COURSE IT IS FOR THE FAMILIES AND FOR EVERYBODY, OF COURSE IT IS, AND I WAS, AGAIN, I MISSPOKE, IT'S NOT NOA'S MOTHER, IT WAS ALMOG'S MOTHER WHO SAID THAT, BUT HERE'S THE THING.

YOU KNOW, THE FAMOUS COLUMNIST WROTE ON SUNDAY THAT THIS OPERATION DOESN'T SOLVE A SINGLE ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN FACING EVER SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM IN THE NORTH, IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM IN GAZA, AND IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE SLEW OF OTHER PROBLEMS THAT THREATEN ISRAEL IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA.

YOU MUST HAVE SOME VIEWS ON THAT, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW -- >> OF COURSE, I -- >> YEAH, BUT -- SO, WHAT IS YOUR VIEW?

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> YEAH, YES, I THINK -- YES, YES, THANK YOU FOR THIS QUESTION, BECAUSE THIS IS THE REALLY BOTTOM ISSUE THAT WE ARE FACING.

I MEAN, WE ALL SUPPORT THE GOALS OF THE WAR, OF THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES, AND ERADICATION OF HAMAS CAPABILITIES TO ACT IN TERROR AND REPLACING HAMAS, AND IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE ENTIRE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BUT WE CANNOT ESCAPE FROM THE REAL, REAL IMPORTANT ISSUE, AND THAT'S, OKAY, WHAT'S NEXT?

WHO IS GOING TO REPLACE HAMAS?

HOW CAN WE CHANGE THE SITUATION IN THE REGION?

AND WE CAN TURN THIS HORRIFIC SITUATION.

AND THEREER DEAL THAT THAT IS ON THE TABLE, THAT REFLECTS THE DAY AFTER HAMAS IN GAZA.

HOPEFULLY ALSO NORMALIZATION WITH SAUDIS, THAT CAN CHANGE THE SECURITY STRUCTURE IN THE REGION.

THE POSSIBILITY FOR ISRAEL TO ACT AGAINST TERROR WITH COOPERATION OF -- WITH A NEW, DIFFERENT PALESTINIAN REGIME, BUT HERE'S THE PROBLEM.

BECAUSE THIS IS WHERE ISRAEL IS AT A CROSSROAD, AND THE FACT THAT GANTZ LEFT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES IT VERY CLEAR, BECAUSE FOR SOME PARTS IN ISRAEL, OF COURSE THEY ARE AGAINST HAMAS, BUT THEY ARE NOT SUGGESTING ANY SOLUTION TO WHO IS GOING TO REPLACE THEM, TAKING THEM IN A DIRECTION THAT ISRAEL IS NOT AN OPTION.

WE DON'T WANT TO REOCCUPY GAZA, WE DON'T WANT TO CONTROL THE PALESTINIAN LIFE.

WE JUST WANT TO TAKE CARE OF ISRAEL'S SECURITY.

SO, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

UNFORTUNATELY, NETANYAHU, FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL REASON, IS NOT DEALING WITH THE ONLY SOLUTION THAT, OR, THE ONLY REGIME THAT CAN REPLACE HAMAS, AND THIS IS A REFORMED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

AND I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS NOW THE ROLE OF THE U.S. TO PUT TOGETHER ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THIS REALLY COMPLICATED JIGSAW.

BUT THIS IS THE MASTER KEY FOR THE DAY AFTER.

YOU CANNOT SPEAK ABOUT TOPPLING A REGIME WITHOUT SPEAKING ABOUT WHO IS REPLACING IT.

AND IT'S GOING TO BE IN STAGES.

AND THE MORE WE POSTPONE THIS ISSUE WITHOUT DEALING WITH IT, THEN WE CAN FACE A SITUATION, A DREADFUL SITUATION, WHERE AFTER ALL THIS WAR, HAMAS IS STILL -- CONTROLS GAZA.

AND THEREFORE THIS IS CRUCIAL.

IT CAN TURN INTO A REGIONAL OPPORTUNITY.

IT IS NOT BEING DEALT WITHIN THE ISRAELI CABINET UNTIL NOW.

AND NOW, WHEN WE HEAR MORE EXTREMISTS WITHIN THE CABINET, IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

AND I TRULY HOPE THAT THE U.S. WILL CONTINUE IN PUSHING FOR THE RIGHT BROADER DEAL THAT DOES NOT DEAL ONLY WITH -- ONLY, WELL, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, MOST IMPORTANT, THE HOSTAGES, BUT ALSO ABOUT THE NEXT -- THE NEXT DAY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU -- >> I DO BELIEVE THAT WHAT THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO -- YES.

>> NO, NO, GO AHEAD.

I WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE YOU HAVE MADE THAT, BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS -- LET ME JUST ASK YOU, IT DOES NOT APPEAR THAT ANYBODY IS LISTENING TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN YOUR GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW, TO THE POINT -- TO THE POINT THAT NBC HAS REPORTED THAT BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DISCUSSED POTENTIALLY NEGOTIATING A UNILATERAL DEAL WITH HAMAS TO SECURE THE RELEASE OF FIVE AMERICANS BEING HELD HOSTAGE, IF THE CURRENT CEASE-FIRE TALKS INVOLVING ISRAEL FAIL.

YOU ARE A FOREIGN FOREIGN MINISTER.

THE FACT THAT -- THE FACT THAT -- THAT AMERICA APPARENTLY HAS TO GO ON ITS OWN AND TALK TO HAMAS BECAUSE APPARENTLY ISRAEL IS NOT PLAYING BALL ON THIS PARTICULAR -- AS YOU'VE CITED, BECAUSE OF VARIOUS DIFFERENT -- >> I'M NOT SURE -- >> GO AHEAD.

>> I'M NOT SURE -- I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT EXAMPLE, BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS IS CONNECTED TO ISRAEL.

IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, ALSO, NETANYAHU SAID THAT ANY -- THE RELEASE OF ANY HOSTAGES IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE SUPPORTED, BECAUSE THERE WERE KIDNAPPED ISRAELIS, AND WE ALL SUPPORT IT, BUT I'M TRYING TO LOOK AT THE BROADER SITUATION.

AND I KNOW THAT THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION PUT ON THE TABLE A DEAL THAT THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES IS PART ONE, AND THEN, WE SHOULD ENTER INTO NEGOTIATIONS ALSO WITH THE SAUDIS, PUTTING THE P.A., OR, OPEN THE DOOR TO THE P.A.

TO ENTER GAZA STRIP.

THEY ARE NOT PERFECT.

YOU MEAN, I HAVE A LIST OF THINGS THAT THEY NEED TO DO IN ORDER TO -- TO TAKE THIS RESPONSIBILITY, BUT WE SHOULD START WITH SOMETHING.

WHO IS GOING TO REPLACE, OR WHO IS GOING TO BE ON RAFAH CROSSING BETWEEN GAZA STRIP AND EGYPT?

WHO IS GOING TO SUPERVISE THE CROSSING?

WHO WILL TAKE CARE OF THE MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS LIVING IN GAZA?

EVERYTHING SHOULD BE AGREED UPON BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE U.S., AND UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WILL NOT AGREE ON SOMETHING, WHICH DOESN'T GO IN LINE WITH THE IDEOLOGY OF THE EXTREME PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE ISRAELI INTEREST, TO CHANGE THE TREND, TO CHANGE WHAT WE ARE FACING.

NOW HAMAS CANNOT STAY, AND IN ORDER TO REPLACE THEM, WE NEED TO AGREE ABOUT THE NEXT REGIME.

>> WELL, SO, SINCE THERE ISN'T AN AGREEMENT, AND THE PRIME MINISTER IS STAYING AWAY FROM A DAY AFTER PLAN, OTHER THAN THE MAXIMALIST VISION OF HIS RIGHT WING -- FAR RIGHT COALITION, WHAT IS IT GOING TO TALK, THEN, FROM YOUR -- FROM YOUR COUNTRY'S SIDE, TO DO THE DAY AFTER THAT YOU OUTLINE, AND THAT THE AMERICANS OUTLINE, TOO, AND MOST OF ISRAEL'S ALLIES?

>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A VERY SHORT -- SHORT TIME.

THIS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WILL NOT REMAIN OPEN FOREVER, WHEN THE SAUDIS ARE CONNECTED TO IT.

AND THEREFORE, I BELIEVE THAT IT'S CRUCIAL.

WHAT I AM DOING IS SPEAKING UP FOR REPRESENTING WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL.

I HOPE THAT ISRAELIS WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT JUST -- WE ALL SUPPORT THE GOALS OF THE WAR, THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE HAMAS AND RIGHTLY SO.

THEY DON'T TRUST THE PALESTINIANS NOW, SO, IT'S NOT ABOUT TRUST.

IF THE U.S. COMES AND SAYS THIS IS ABOUT ISRAEL'S SECURITY, WE'LL SUPPORT ALSO THE LEGITIMACY OF THE ISRAELI ARMY TO ACT AGAINST TERROR ALSO AFTER YARDS, AS WE ARE DOING IN OTHER PARTS, IN THE WEST BANK, AS WELL, SO, AS I SAID BEFORE, IT SHOULD BE IN STAGES.

IT'S VERY COMPLICATED, BUT IT'S NEEDED, BECAUSE OTHERWISE, AT THE END OF THIS WAR, WITHOUT AGREEING ON THIS, THIS CAN TURN INTO JUST ANOTHER ROUND, AND UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK THAT IT WILL BE A HUGE MISSED OPPORTUNITY.

>> TZIPI LIVNI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, AFTER EIGHT MONTHS OF WAR, AND DOORS CLOSED TO INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS, PALESTINIAN REPORTERS CONTINUE TO BE THE EYES AND EARS OF THE WORLD FROM GAZA.

A YOUNG JOURNALIST HAS BEEN DOCUMENTING THE PLIGHT OF CIVILIANS SINCE OCTOBER 7th THERE, EXPLAINING THE HORRORS UNFOLDING TO OVER 4 MILLION SOCIAL MEDIA FOLLOWERS.

AND SHE'S JUST BEEN AWARDED A PRESTIGIOUS PEABODY AWARD IN THE UNITED STATES, CITING HER BRAVERY AND COMMITMENT TO JOURNALISM DESPITE LIFE-THREATENING DANGER.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE U.S., AND ADVANCEMENTS IN DRUG THERAPIES.

LAST WEEK, A FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE VOTED AGAINST USING MDMA, OR ECSTASY, TO TREAT POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.

IT MARKS THE FIRST TIME FDA ADVISERS HAVE EVEN CONSIDERED A PSYCHEDELIC DRUG FOR MEDICAL USE.

THIS IS SOMETHING OUR NEXT GUEST IS PASSIONATE ABOUT.

ERNESTO LONDONO'S NEW BOOK, "TRIPPY," DRAWS ON HIS OWN EXPERIENCE, IN THE AMAZON, TRYING TO EASE HIS DEPRESSION.

AND HE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON NOW TO DISCUSS THE GROWING INTERSECTION BETWEEN MENTAL HEALTH AND DRUG USE FOR THERAPY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISCHRISTIANE.

ERNESTO, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR GREAT BOOK JUST CAME OUT.

THE PERIL AND PROMISE OF MEDICINAL PSYCHEDELICS.

PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS THAT CAN HELP US.

AND IT'S A VERY BAANCED BOOK.

I LOVED READING IT LAST NIGHT.

YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE SAYING, WE HAVE TO GO ALL IN, YOU GREW UP IN COLOMBIA, SO, YOU KNOW THE WAR ON DRUGS, IT'S NOT A CALL FOR THE WAR ON DRUGS, IT'S A VERY BALANCED TREATMENT.

BUT LET'S START WITH THE NEWS, THERE WAS A PANEL OF EXPERTS THAT TOLD THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION NOT TO APPROVE MDMA, ONE OF THE PSYCHEDELICS, FOR TREATMENT OF POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, AND OTHER THINGS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED, AND HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT THINGS?

>> YEAH, WELL, THIS IS THE QUEST YEARS OR DECADES IN THE MAKING, AND IF AND WHEN THE FDA APPROVES MDMA AS A TREATMENT FOR PTSD, THAT WOULD MARK A WATERSHED MOMENT, IN THIS EFFORT TO BRING PSYCHEDELIC COMPOUNDS INTO THE MAIN STREAM OF MEDICINE.

BUT WHAT WE SAW WAS AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT TELLS THE FDA WHAT IT THINKS ABOUT EMERGING TREATMENTS FELT THAT THIS PROTOCOL, YOU KNOW, COMBINING MDMA, THE DRUG OTHERWISE KNOWN AS ECSTASY, WITH PSYCHO THERAPY, WAS NOT QUITE READY FOR PRIME TIME.

THEY FELT THERE WERE TOO MANY UNKNOWNS, AND THEY ALSO HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RESEARCH.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN A CONCERN THAT THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE RESEARCH, THE PEOPLE FUNDING AND CONDUCTING THE RESEARCH, ARE TRUE BELIEVERS, AND FELT SO STRONGLY THAT THE WAR ON DRUGS WAS MORALLY WRONG, AND STRATEGICALLY WRONG, THAT THEY MAY HAVE CUT CORNERS IN THE PURSUIT OF GETTING MDMA APPROVED.

>> WAIT, LET ME STOP YOU THERE.

IS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S BEEN DEFINITELY SOME SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS IN THE STUDY.

THERE WAS ONE PATIENT IN THE STUDY FOR MDMA AS A TREATMENT FOR PTSD WHO EXPERIENCED SEXUAL ABUSE AT THE HANDS OF THERAPISTS.

AND I THINK THAT ILLUSTRATED THE EXTENT TO WHICH THIS PARTICULAR THERAPY, WHEN YOU HAVE A MIND-ALTERING DRUG THAT IS ADMINISTERED BY A THERAPIST AND RENDER SOMEBODY REALLY VULNERABLE, REALLY LENDS ITSELF TO BOUNDARY TRANSGRESSIONS THAT CAN BE VERY PROBLEMATIC AND TRAUMATIZING FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS ALREADY VULNERABLE.

THE OTHER MAIN PROBLEM WITH THIS FIELD OF STUDY IS THAT IT'S REALLY HARD TO DO SORT OF THE GOLD STANDARD OF CLINICAL TRIALS, WHERE YOU HAVE ONE GROUP BEING ADMINISTERED A NEW COMPOUND AND ANOTHER GROUP THAT SEVENS A PLACEBO.

FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, IF YOU ARE TAKING A MIND-ALTERING DRUG, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE IN THE CONTROL GROUP OR IN THE GROUP THAT GOT THE ACTIVE COMPOUND.

>> WELL, YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH IT.

THIS IS PARTLY A MEMOIR, THIS BOOK, AND I THINK IN 2018, YOU WERE DEEPLY DEPRESSED, AND YOU DECIDED TO EXPERIMENT WITH SOME OF THESE TREATMENTS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, I THINK I'M AMONG THE PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE WHO AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIFE, YOU KNOW, FELT THAT THEY WERE SUFFERING, THAT THEY WERE AT A LOSS, AND THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE MUCH FAITH IN WHAT THE MAINSTREAM MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAD TO OFFER.

SO, I THINK I WAS AMONG THOSE WHO TOOK A LEAP OF FAITH AND SAW IN THIS RETREAT MODEL, IN THIS PSYCHEDELIC RETREAT MODEL THAT HAS BEEN UNFOLDING IN LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES FOR MANY YEARS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO PIVOT OUT OF SORT OF A DOWNWARD SPIRAL OF DEPRESSION.

AND IN MY CASE, YOU KNOW, I WAS PRETTY SUCCESSFUL.

I EXPERIENCED A PRETTY DRAMATIC TURNAROUND, YOU KNOW, FROM FEELING THAT I WAS IN THE GRIP OF DEPRESSION FOR MONTHS, THAT WAS MAKING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO FOCUS ON MY WORK, TO SLEEP AT NIGHT, AND TO SOCIALIZE, TO ALL OF A SUDDEN GET A REALLY IMMEDIATE RESPITE.

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE I HAD A BURST OF OXYGEN THAT GAVE ME A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO THINK MORE CLEARLY AND STRATEGICALLY ABOUT HOW I BECAME SO DEPRESSED, AND WHAT WAS WITHIN MY POWER TO START DIGGING MYSELF OUT OF THAT HOLE.

>> IT WAS A CEREMONY THAT -- OR, TREATMENT THAT YOU DID, SOMEWHAT SPIRITUAL, I THINK YOU DID IT IN BRAZIL.

TELL ME WHAT IT IS.

>> YEAH, IT IS A BREW THAT HAS BEEN CONSUMED BY INDIGENOUS TRIBES IN THE AMAZON FOR CENTURIES.

IT'S GOT A REALLY RICH AND COMPLICATED HISTORY, AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO FIRST USED THIS, THIS FOREMOST, I THINK, A SACRAMENT.

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE VIEW THIS AS A PORTAL TO THE REALM OF SPIRITS.

AND ONCE THEY ACCESS THAT SPIRIT, THEY SAY THEY CAN FIND HEALING, AND ALSO SOMETIMES THEY CAN FIND STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE.

AND SORT OF THE VERY EARLY ITERATIONS OF THIS, THIS WAS NOT SOLELY USED AS A TOOL TO HEAL PEOPLE WHO WERE SUFFERING.

IT WAS ALSO USED, FOR INSTANCE, TO GO TO WAR WITH A NEIGHBORING TRIBE AND GAIN STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS, THOUGH, IS THAT AS MORE NON-INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN THESE RITUALS, THERE'S BEEN A SUCCESSION OF CHARACTERS WHO HAVE FOUND WAYS TO REIMAGINE THESE RITUALS.

AND TO REALLY START SPEAKING ABOUT THEM IN LANGUAGE THAT IS ACCESSIBLE TO WESTERNERS, PARTICULARLY AS IT RELATES TO MENTAL HEALTH.

>> WELL, THESE CEREMONIES, OR SPIRITUAL RETREATS, THEY'RE DONE IN CALIFORNIA.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE IN TEXAS, ACTUALLY, DOING THEM.

FIRST OF ALL, ARE THEY LEGAL, AND IS THIS A GOOD IDEA?

>> WELL, THE LEGALITY OF THIS IS REALLY FASCINATING.

THIS CONTAINS DMT, WHICH IS A SCHEDULE ONE COMPOUND UNDER THE DEA'S CLASSIFICATION OF DRUGS.

FROM A STRICT STANDPOINT, IT'S NOT LEGAL TO IMPORT IT FROM LATIN AMERICA OR TO SELL IT OR ADMINISTER IT TO PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, HOWEVER, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE WAY THIS IS UNFOLDING NOW, OFTENTIMES HAPPENS IN SPIRITUAL COMMUNITIES.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ORGANIZING RETREATS, THAT ARE HOLDING THESE RITUALS AND ARE INVITING PEOPLE TO COME AND TAKE PART IN THESE RITUALS, THEY'RE INCREASINGLY ASSERTING THEIR USE OF THESE COMPOUNDS IS SACRAMENTAL, AND BECAUSE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE BECOME SO EXPANSIVE AND HAVE CREATED SUCH A HIGH BAR FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT IS AND IS NOT LEGITIMATE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE, THAT THEY ARE OPERATING ABOVE BOARD.

SO, RIGHT NOW, WE'RE HAVING, YOU KNOW, SOME REALLY INTERESTING CASES BEFORE THE COURTS, TESTING THE LEGALITY OF THESE RITUALS, AND THESE THERAPIES.

WE HAVE DOZENS OF PSYCHEDELIC CHURCHES THAT ARE OPERATING OPENLY, ADVERTISING THEIR SERVICES.

THEY HAVE WEBSITES.

YOU CAN OFTENTIMES PAY FOR THEIR SERVICES WITH A CREDIT CARD.

AND A SMALL NUMBER OF THEM ARE PRO ACTIVELY SUING THE GOVERNMENT, AND SAYING, WE WANT OUTRIGHT PERMISSION TO CONTINUE OPERATING OPENLY AS WE ARE, WE THINK WE'RE DOING IMPORTANT WORK, AND WE'RE HEALING PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'RE AN OBJECTIVE REPORTER, YOU COME FROM A JOURNALISTIC BACKGROUND, BUT TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK.

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO WEAVE THROUGH THIS ISSUE OF WHO SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS FOR THERAPIES?

>> SURE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THESE COMPOUNDS CAN INDUCE REALLY FAST AND LASTING CHANGES IN MOOD AND BEHAVIOR.

SO, WE'RE AT A MOMENT WHERE PSYCHIATRY HASN'T REALLY HAD A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, SOMETHING NEW AND VERY USEFUL IN THE TOOLKIT.

SO, I THINK UNDERSTANDABLY, THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT AND HOPE FOR WHAT THESE COMPOUNDS CAN DO, IF AND WHEN WE'RE ABLE TO INTEGRATE THEM INTO MEDICINE.

YOU KNOW, HOWEVER, I THINK AS THIS FIELD CONTINUES TO GROW, YOU KNOW, REALLY UNWIELDY AND THE UNDERGROUND, AND THE CHURCH SETTING, THE SPIRITUAL SETTING, WE'RE BOUND TO SEE SOME CASES THAT ARE GOING TO BE REALLY DISTURBING.

AND I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHETHER, WITHIN THIS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY, WHERE WE CAN SORT OF GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND REIMAGINE WHAT MAKES SENSE IN TERMS OF POLICY AND REGULATION FOR THIS CLASS OF DRUGS, ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO ACCELERATE THE RESEARCH THAT WILL ANSWER SOME OF THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LIMITATIONS AND THE PROMISE OF THESE THERAPIES IN A WAY THAT WILL BE QUICK ENOUGH TO SORT OF OPEN MORE ACCESS POINTS IN PLACES AND SETTINGS THAT WILL BE SAFE AND ETHICAL, OR IF THIS WILL CONTINUE TO UNFOLD LARGELY IN THE UNDERGROUND, WHERE, I THINK, THE MARGIN OF ERROR IS SUBSTANTIAL.

SO, I THINK IT'S INCUMBENT UPON HEALTH CARE REGULATORS AND POLICY MAKERS, I THINK, TO GRAPPLE WITH THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THESE DRUGS WERE PROPERLY CLASSIFIED TO BEGIN WITH, WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE RESCHEDULED WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT'S SYSTEM, AND HOW DO WE INTEGRATE THEM INTO MAINSTREAM MEDICINE TO FULFILL THE DEMAND WE'RE SEEING FROM PATIENTS?

>> YOU TALK ABOUT KETAMINE, MDMA, VARIOUS FORMS OF PSYCHEDELICS.

TELL ME -- TELL ME, WHAT ARE THE RANGE, ARE THEY LIKE LSD?

WHAT ARE THEY LIKE AND WHAT DO THEY DO?

>> YOU KNOW, THESE DRUGS ARE VERY DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME THAT ARE VERY SHORT ACTING, SO, FOR INSTANCE, THERE'S A DRUG, WHICH IS DERIVED FROM THE SECRETIONS OF A TOAD, THAT HAS A REALLY FAST AND INTENSE JOURNEY.

THIS CAN BE DONE IN 20 TO 40 MINUTES.

IF YOU ARE UNDERGOING THERAPY WITH MAGIC MUSHROOMS, THESE ARE LENGTHIER TRIPS.

YOU ARE GOING TO BE UNDER THE SPELL OF THIS FOR, YOU KNOW, SIX TO EIGHT HOURS.

IF YOU ARE TRYING SOMETHING LIKE AN AFRICAN PLANT, THAT IS BEING USED FOR PEOPLE WITH SEVERE ADDICTION PROBLEMS, THESE CAN BE REALLY LONG JOURNEYS, 20 HOURS OR SO.

I THINK THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS THAT THESE EXPERIENCES APPEAR TO INDUCE A STATE OF NEUROMRAS TISTY.

THE BRAIN IS MORE MALLEABLE.

YOU SEE PATTERNS OF THINKING AND BRAIN ACTIVITY THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM SORT OF OUR EVERY DAY MOMENTS.

AND FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN STUCK IN A RUT OF DEPRESSION OR TRAUMA, WHICH OFTENTIMES INCLUDES THIS REALLY OBSESSIVE THINKING, THESE SORT OF RUTS OF, YOU KNOW, FEAR INDUCING AND PAIN INDUCING THOUGHTS THAT YOU JUST CAN'T GET AWAY FROM, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IN THE WAKE OF THESE EXPERIENCES, SO, WHEN THE BRAIN HAS SORT OF UNDERGONE A HARD RESET, YOU ARE ABLE TO PIVOT AWAY FROM THAT AND START SEEING AND THINKING ABOUT THE REASONS YOU BECAME TRAUMATIZED OR DEPRESSED MORE CLEARLY.

AND ONCE YOU'RE ABLE TO DO THAT, SOMETIMES IT'S EASIER TO START FEELING BETTER, AND ALSO, TO START KIND OF UNDERSTANDING THE BEHAVIORS THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR YOU TO FEEL MORE STABLE AND TO BE MORE RESILIENT.

>>?

HAPPENED TO YOU.

YOU DECIDED TO PURSUE THIS.

YOU WERE IN DEPRESSION, AND IT UNLOCKED CERTAIN KEY MEMORIES, AND IT ALLOWED YOU TO DEAL WITH THINGS IN THE PAST.

INSTEAD OF DESCRIBING IT IN THE ABSTRACT, TELL ME ABOUT IT HAPPENING TO YOU.

>> YEAH, I THINK IN MY CASE, WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF CHAPTERS OF MY LIFE, YOU KNOW, PERIODS FROM CHILDHOOD, FROM ADOLESCENCE, THAT I HAD NEVER REALLY GRAPPLED WITH, THAT I HAD NEVER REALLY CRITICALLY EXAMINED, AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THESE INTENSE RITUALS, I WAS DRAWN TO REVISIT THESE MEMORIES, TO SIT WITH SOME OF MY MORE PAINFUL MOMENTS FROM MY CHILDHOOD IN COLOMBIA, FROM THE DIVORCE OF MY PARENTS, YOU KNOW, FROM COMING OUT OF THE CLOSET AS A GAY MAN, AND HOW DESTABILIZING AND SCARY THAT FELT IN THE MOMENT.

MEMORIES OF BEING A WAR CORRESPONDENT, WORKING IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND IT BECAME CLEAR TO ME THAT THERE WAS THIS SORT OF MOSAIC OF REALLY INFORMATIVE EXPERIENCES THAT I HADN'T REALLY HAD EVER MADE THE TIME TO SIT WITH AND PROPERLY ANALYZE.

AND I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN MY CASE, AND WHAT I HEARD REPEATEDLY FROM PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED FOR THIS BOOK, IS, WHEN YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO BACK INTO THESE MEMORIES IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS SAFE, OFTENTIMES, YOU KIND OF WALK AWAY FEELING REAL COMPASSION FOR THIS EARLY VERSION OF YOURSELF.

AND IN DOING SO, OFTENTIMES, YOU ARE ABLE TO REFRAIN THESE MEMORIES IN A WAY THAT MAKES THEM EASIER TO CARRY.

SO, I THINK THE COMMON DENOMINATOR FOR ME, I THINK OF THE WORK I'VE DONE OVER THE YEARS, AIDED BY THESE INTENSE EXPERIENCES.

I WAS ABLE TO SHOW MYSELF COMPASSION THAT WAS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO SHOW MYSELF IN REAL TIME, AND FOR ME, THAT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, KIND OF A BIG THREAD OF WHY I FOUND THESE EXPERIENCES KA THWARTIC, HEALING, BUT ALSO JUST CLARIFYING.

I THINK THEY GAVE ME A BETTER SENSE OF SORT OF THE NARRATIVE ARC OF MY LIFE AND A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE CHOICES I MADE OVER THE YEARS IN RESPONSE TO SOME OF THESE DIFFICULT MOMENTS.

>> YOU BEGIN THE BOOK WITH A STORY OF ROBERT FITZGERALD, A VETERAN, A REPUBLICAN, WHO WALKS INTO A CENTER.

TELL ME ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE, AND HOW THIS TIES INTO THE ROLE OF VETERANS IN THIS ISSUE.

>> YEAH, ROBERT WAS A REALLY FASCINATING CHARACTER I STUMBLED INTO.

HE HAD SIGNED UP FOR A RETREAT IN AUSTIN AT A CHURCH RUN BY A WOMAN WHO USED TO BE A CRACK ADDICT AND A STRIPPER.

AND ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I LEARNED ABOUT ROBERT WAS THAT JUST TWO WEEKS EARLIER, HE HAD PUT A PISTOL IN HIS MOUTH AND CAME VERY CLOSE TO KILLING HIMSELF.

I CHOSE TO START AND END THE BOOK WITH VETERAN STORIES, BECAUSE VETERANS HAVE PLAYED AN OUTSIZED ROLE IN ADVOCATING FOR MORE RESEARCH AND FOR EXPANDED ACCESS INTO THESE THERAPIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THIS ERA OF THE SO-CALLED PSYCHEDELIC RENAISSANCE REALLY INTERESTING.

IT IS BECAUSE VETERANS HAVE BECOME SUCH CHAMPIONS OF THESE THERAPIES, AND SOME, YOU KNOW, THEY BELIEVE SO FIRMLY THAT THIS IS URGENTLY NEEDED FOR MANY OF THEIR COMRADES, THAT THEY BUILT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, SO, YOU HAVE SOME OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERS IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, FIERCELY ADVOCATING FOR EXPANDED ACCESS FOR THESE THERAPIES, NOT JUST FOR VETERANS, BUT IN SOME INSTANCES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON ACTIVE DUTY IN THE MILITARY.

AND YOU HAVE THIS SORT OF UNDERGROUND COMMUNITY WHERE, YOU KNOW, BY WORD OF MOUTH, VETERANS TAKE OTHER VETERANS TO PEOPLE WHERE THEY -- TO PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE FOUND HEALING.

SO, THE ROLE OF VETERANS HAS BEEN REALLY PARAMOUNT, AND I THINK WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO.

WE CONTINUE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, A V.A.

STRUGGLING WITH THE SUICIDE RATE IN THE VETERAN COMMUNITY, AND WITH PTSD RATES THAT ARE STILL VERY, VERY HIGH, AND LEAD MANY PEOPLE TO BE DISABLED EARLY IN THEIR LIVES AND CAREERS.

>> ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS, YOU HAVE A DEA AGENT WHO IS A CONSULTANT TO SOME OF THE INDUSTRY, AND I THINK HE SAYS, THERE'S GOING TO BE A DISASTER DOWN THE ROAD.

TELL ME ABOUT THE DOWNSIDES THERE.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S CONCERN THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING FRANCHISES, ESPECIALLY IN THE CHURCH SETTING, ARE PLAYING FAST AND LOOSE, ARE NOT ADEQUATELY SCREENING APPLICANTS.

THERE WAS A CASE IN A CHURCH IN FLORIDA IN 2018 WHERE A YOUNG MAN DIED DURING CEREMONY, AND THE PEOPLE ORGANIZING THE CEREMONY WERE RELUCTANT TO CALL THE POLICE.

THERE WAS A CIVIL LAWSUIT, AND A JURY IN FLORIDA RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, FOUND THAT THE OPERATOR OF THE RETREAT WAS AT FAULT IN THE DEATH.

SO, I THINK THERE'S GOOD REASON TO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS MORE PEOPLE ARE DRAWN TO THESE EXPERIENCES, MANY PEOPLE WILL BE HEALED, BUT A FAIR NUMBER OF PEOPLE WILL GET HURT.

AND THAT MAY GIVE THE WHOLE MOVEMENT A BAD NAME, A BAD REPUTATION, AND IT COULD LEAD TO THE KIND OF BACKLASH WE SAW BACK IN THE '60s AND '70s WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT THAT THIS WAS OUT OF CONTROL.

>> YEAH, THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE HARMFUL, THINGS THAT ARE HEALING.

WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE OUT OF THIS BOOK, AT THE END OF THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT DRUGS THAT HARM AND DRUGS THAT HEAL, AND HAVING A MIND-SET THAT WILL ALLOW US TO APPROACH THIS.

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO DO WHEN THEY READ THIS BOOK?

>> I MEAN, I HOPE PEOPLE WALK AWAY WITH HOPE, THAT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, REAL POTENTIAL IN THESE COMPOUNDS, BUT ALSO, THAT THERE'S A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO GET THIS RIGHT, THAT THERE'S A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR REGULATORS AND POLICY MAKERS TO THINK THROUGH THESE COMPLICATED QUESTIONS AND TO CREATE SETTINGS AND PROTOCOLS THAT ARE GOING TO BE SAFER.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE ROOM BOTH FOR A CLINICAL LANE AND FOR MORE SORT OF A SPIRITUAL AND RITUALISTIC LANE, BUT I THINK ACROSS THE BOARD, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTING AETICILY, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE -- AND WE NEED PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS AND THE RISKS OF THESE THERAPIES, AND TO REALLY THINK THROUGH WHAT KIND OF GUARDRAILS ARE IDEAL TO MAKE THESE EXPERIENCES AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.

>> ERNESTO LONDONO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

>> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A WHEELCHAIR THAT RUNS ON BRAIN WAVES.

THAT'S WHAT THIS TEAM OF FEMALE TUNISIAN ENGINEERS HAVE CREATED.

AN INVENTION THAT'S EARNED THEM A PLACE IN THE YOUNG INVESTORS PRIZE.

IT ALLOWS USERS TO MOVE THE SMART WHEELCHAIR WITH THEIR THOUGHTS, FACIAL GESTURES, AND VOICE COMMANDS.

IT IS SHORT LISTED FROM OVER 500 APPLICANTS, AND THE ALL-FEMALE TEAM WILL BATTLE IT OUT NEXT MONTH IN MALTA, AND WE'LL BRING YOU THOSE RESULTS.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.