“Trippy:” How Psychedelics Can Be Used to Treat Mental Health Issues

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE U.S., AND ADVANCEMENTS IN DRUG THERAPIES.

LAST WEEK, A FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE VOTED AGAINST USING MDMA, OR ECSTASY, TO TREAT POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.

IT MARKS THE FIRST TIME FDA ADVISERS HAVE EVEN CONSIDERED A PSYCHEDELIC DRUG FOR MEDICAL USE.

THIS IS SOMETHING OUR NEXT GUEST IS PASSIONATE ABOUT.

ERNESTO LONDONO'S NEW BOOK, "TRIPPY," DRAWS ON HIS OWN EXPERIENCE, IN THE AMAZON, TRYING TO EASE HIS DEPRESSION.

AND HE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON NOW TO DISCUSS THE GROWING INTERSECTION BETWEEN MENTAL HEALTH AND DRUG USE FOR THERAPY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISCHRISTIANE.

ERNESTO, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR GREAT BOOK JUST CAME OUT.

THE PERIL AND PROMISE OF MEDICINAL PSYCHEDELICS.

PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS THAT CAN HELP US.

AND IT'S A VERY BAANCED BOOK.

I LOVED READING IT LAST NIGHT.

YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE SAYING, WE HAVE TO GO ALL IN, YOU GREW UP IN COLOMBIA, SO, YOU KNOW THE WAR ON DRUGS, IT'S NOT A CALL FOR THE WAR ON DRUGS, IT'S A VERY BALANCED TREATMENT.

BUT LET'S START WITH THE NEWS, THERE WAS A PANEL OF EXPERTS THAT TOLD THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION NOT TO APPROVE MDMA, ONE OF THE PSYCHEDELICS, FOR TREATMENT OF POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, AND OTHER THINGS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED, AND HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT THINGS?

>> YEAH, WELL, THIS IS THE QUEST YEARS OR DECADES IN THE MAKING, AND IF AND WHEN THE FDA APPROVES MDMA AS A TREATMENT FOR PTSD, THAT WOULD MARK A WATERSHED MOMENT, IN THIS EFFORT TO BRING PSYCHEDELIC COMPOUNDS INTO THE MAIN STREAM OF MEDICINE.

BUT WHAT WE SAW WAS AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT TELLS THE FDA WHAT IT THINKS ABOUT EMERGING TREATMENTS FELT THAT THIS PROTOCOL, YOU KNOW, COMBINING MDMA, THE DRUG OTHERWISE KNOWN AS ECSTASY, WITH PSYCHO THERAPY, WAS NOT QUITE READY FOR PRIME TIME.

THEY FELT THERE WERE TOO MANY UNKNOWNS, AND THEY ALSO HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RESEARCH.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN A CONCERN THAT THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE RESEARCH, THE PEOPLE FUNDING AND CONDUCTING THE RESEARCH, ARE TRUE BELIEVERS, AND FELT SO STRONGLY THAT THE WAR ON DRUGS WAS MORALLY WRONG, AND STRATEGICALLY WRONG, THAT THEY MAY HAVE CUT CORNERS IN THE PURSUIT OF GETTING MDMA APPROVED.

>> WAIT, LET ME STOP YOU THERE.

IS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S BEEN DEFINITELY SOME SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS IN THE STUDY.

THERE WAS ONE PATIENT IN THE STUDY FOR MDMA AS A TREATMENT FOR PTSD WHO EXPERIENCED SEXUAL ABUSE AT THE HANDS OF THERAPISTS.

AND I THINK THAT ILLUSTRATED THE EXTENT TO WHICH THIS PARTICULAR THERAPY, WHEN YOU HAVE A MIND-ALTERING DRUG THAT IS ADMINISTERED BY A THERAPIST AND RENDER SOMEBODY REALLY VULNERABLE, REALLY LENDS ITSELF TO BOUNDARY TRANSGRESSIONS THAT CAN BE VERY PROBLEMATIC AND TRAUMATIZING FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS ALREADY VULNERABLE.

THE OTHER MAIN PROBLEM WITH THIS FIELD OF STUDY IS THAT IT'S REALLY HARD TO DO SORT OF THE GOLD STANDARD OF CLINICAL TRIALS, WHERE YOU HAVE ONE GROUP BEING ADMINISTERED A NEW COMPOUND AND ANOTHER GROUP THAT SEVENS A PLACEBO.

FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, IF YOU ARE TAKING A MIND-ALTERING DRUG, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE IN THE CONTROL GROUP OR IN THE GROUP THAT GOT THE ACTIVE COMPOUND.

>> WELL, YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH IT.

THIS IS PARTLY A MEMOIR, THIS BOOK, AND I THINK IN 2018, YOU WERE DEEPLY DEPRESSED, AND YOU DECIDED TO EXPERIMENT WITH SOME OF THESE TREATMENTS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, I THINK I'M AMONG THE PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE WHO AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIFE, YOU KNOW, FELT THAT THEY WERE SUFFERING, THAT THEY WERE AT A LOSS, AND THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE MUCH FAITH IN WHAT THE MAINSTREAM MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAD TO OFFER.

SO, I THINK I WAS AMONG THOSE WHO TOOK A LEAP OF FAITH AND SAW IN THIS RETREAT MODEL, IN THIS PSYCHEDELIC RETREAT MODEL THAT HAS BEEN UNFOLDING IN LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES FOR MANY YEARS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO PIVOT OUT OF SORT OF A DOWNWARD SPIRAL OF DEPRESSION.

AND IN MY CASE, YOU KNOW, I WAS PRETTY SUCCESSFUL.

I EXPERIENCED A PRETTY DRAMATIC TURNAROUND, YOU KNOW, FROM FEELING THAT I WAS IN THE GRIP OF DEPRESSION FOR MONTHS, THAT WAS MAKING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO FOCUS ON MY WORK, TO SLEEP AT NIGHT, AND TO SOCIALIZE, TO ALL OF A SUDDEN GET A REALLY IMMEDIATE RESPITE.

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE I HAD A BURST OF OXYGEN THAT GAVE ME A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO THINK MORE CLEARLY AND STRATEGICALLY ABOUT HOW I BECAME SO DEPRESSED, AND WHAT WAS WITHIN MY POWER TO START DIGGING MYSELF OUT OF THAT HOLE.

>> IT WAS A CEREMONY THAT -- OR, TREATMENT THAT YOU DID, SOMEWHAT SPIRITUAL, I THINK YOU DID IT IN BRAZIL.

TELL ME WHAT IT IS.

>> YEAH, IT IS A BREW THAT HAS BEEN CONSUMED BY INDIGENOUS TRIBES IN THE AMAZON FOR CENTURIES.

IT'S GOT A REALLY RICH AND COMPLICATED HISTORY, AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO FIRST USED THIS, THIS FOREMOST, I THINK, A SACRAMENT.

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE VIEW THIS AS A PORTAL TO THE REALM OF SPIRITS.

AND ONCE THEY ACCESS THAT SPIRIT, THEY SAY THEY CAN FIND HEALING, AND ALSO SOMETIMES THEY CAN FIND STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE.

AND SORT OF THE VERY EARLY ITERATIONS OF THIS, THIS WAS NOT SOLELY USED AS A TOOL TO HEAL PEOPLE WHO WERE SUFFERING.

IT WAS ALSO USED, FOR INSTANCE, TO GO TO WAR WITH A NEIGHBORING TRIBE AND GAIN STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS, THOUGH, IS THAT AS MORE NON-INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN THESE RITUALS, THERE'S BEEN A SUCCESSION OF CHARACTERS WHO HAVE FOUND WAYS TO REIMAGINE THESE RITUALS.

AND TO REALLY START SPEAKING ABOUT THEM IN LANGUAGE THAT IS ACCESSIBLE TO WESTERNERS, PARTICULARLY AS IT RELATES TO MENTAL HEALTH.

>> WELL, THESE CEREMONIES, OR SPIRITUAL RETREATS, THEY'RE DONE IN CALIFORNIA.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE IN TEXAS, ACTUALLY, DOING THEM.

FIRST OF ALL, ARE THEY LEGAL, AND IS THIS A GOOD IDEA?

>> WELL, THE LEGALITY OF THIS IS REALLY FASCINATING.

THIS CONTAINS DMT, WHICH IS A SCHEDULE ONE COMPOUND UNDER THE DEA'S CLASSIFICATION OF DRUGS.

FROM A STRICT STANDPOINT, IT'S NOT LEGAL TO IMPORT IT FROM LATIN AMERICA OR TO SELL IT OR ADMINISTER IT TO PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, HOWEVER, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE WAY THIS IS UNFOLDING NOW, OFTENTIMES HAPPENS IN SPIRITUAL COMMUNITIES.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ORGANIZING RETREATS, THAT ARE HOLDING THESE RITUALS AND ARE INVITING PEOPLE TO COME AND TAKE PART IN THESE RITUALS, THEY'RE INCREASINGLY ASSERTING THEIR USE OF THESE COMPOUNDS IS SACRAMENTAL, AND BECAUSE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE BECOME SO EXPANSIVE AND HAVE CREATED SUCH A HIGH BAR FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT IS AND IS NOT LEGITIMATE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE, THAT THEY ARE OPERATING ABOVE BOARD.

SO, RIGHT NOW, WE'RE HAVING, YOU KNOW, SOME REALLY INTERESTING CASES BEFORE THE COURTS, TESTING THE LEGALITY OF THESE RITUALS, AND THESE THERAPIES.

WE HAVE DOZENS OF PSYCHEDELIC CHURCHES THAT ARE OPERATING OPENLY, ADVERTISING THEIR SERVICES.

THEY HAVE WEBSITES.

YOU CAN OFTENTIMES PAY FOR THEIR SERVICES WITH A CREDIT CARD.

AND A SMALL NUMBER OF THEM ARE PRO ACTIVELY SUING THE GOVERNMENT, AND SAYING, WE WANT OUTRIGHT PERMISSION TO CONTINUE OPERATING OPENLY AS WE ARE, WE THINK WE'RE DOING IMPORTANT WORK, AND WE'RE HEALING PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'RE AN OBJECTIVE REPORTER, YOU COME FROM A JOURNALISTIC BACKGROUND, BUT TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK.

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO WEAVE THROUGH THIS ISSUE OF WHO SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE PSYCHEDELIC DRUGS FOR THERAPIES?

>> SURE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THESE COMPOUNDS CAN INDUCE REALLY FAST AND LASTING CHANGES IN MOOD AND BEHAVIOR.

SO, WE'RE AT A MOMENT WHERE PSYCHIATRY HASN'T REALLY HAD A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, SOMETHING NEW AND VERY USEFUL IN THE TOOLKIT.

SO, I THINK UNDERSTANDABLY, THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT AND HOPE FOR WHAT THESE COMPOUNDS CAN DO, IF AND WHEN WE'RE ABLE TO INTEGRATE THEM INTO MEDICINE.

YOU KNOW, HOWEVER, I THINK AS THIS FIELD CONTINUES TO GROW, YOU KNOW, REALLY UNWIELDY AND THE UNDERGROUND, AND THE CHURCH SETTING, THE SPIRITUAL SETTING, WE'RE BOUND TO SEE SOME CASES THAT ARE GOING TO BE REALLY DISTURBING.

AND I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHETHER, WITHIN THIS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY, WHERE WE CAN SORT OF GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND REIMAGINE WHAT MAKES SENSE IN TERMS OF POLICY AND REGULATION FOR THIS CLASS OF DRUGS, ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO ACCELERATE THE RESEARCH THAT WILL ANSWER SOME OF THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LIMITATIONS AND THE PROMISE OF THESE THERAPIES IN A WAY THAT WILL BE QUICK ENOUGH TO SORT OF OPEN MORE ACCESS POINTS IN PLACES AND SETTINGS THAT WILL BE SAFE AND ETHICAL, OR IF THIS WILL CONTINUE TO UNFOLD LARGELY IN THE UNDERGROUND, WHERE, I THINK, THE MARGIN OF ERROR IS SUBSTANTIAL.

SO, I THINK IT'S INCUMBENT UPON HEALTH CARE REGULATORS AND POLICY MAKERS, I THINK, TO GRAPPLE WITH THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THESE DRUGS WERE PROPERLY CLASSIFIED TO BEGIN WITH, WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE RESCHEDULED WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT'S SYSTEM, AND HOW DO WE INTEGRATE THEM INTO MAINSTREAM MEDICINE TO FULFILL THE DEMAND WE'RE SEEING FROM PATIENTS?

>> YOU TALK ABOUT KETAMINE, MDMA, VARIOUS FORMS OF PSYCHEDELICS.

TELL ME -- TELL ME, WHAT ARE THE RANGE, ARE THEY LIKE LSD?

WHAT ARE THEY LIKE AND WHAT DO THEY DO?

>> YOU KNOW, THESE DRUGS ARE VERY DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME THAT ARE VERY SHORT ACTING, SO, FOR INSTANCE, THERE'S A DRUG, WHICH IS DERIVED FROM THE SECRETIONS OF A TOAD, THAT HAS A REALLY FAST AND INTENSE JOURNEY.

THIS CAN BE DONE IN 20 TO 40 MINUTES.

IF YOU ARE UNDERGOING THERAPY WITH MAGIC MUSHROOMS, THESE ARE LENGTHIER TRIPS.

YOU ARE GOING TO BE UNDER THE SPELL OF THIS FOR, YOU KNOW, SIX TO EIGHT HOURS.

IF YOU ARE TRYING SOMETHING LIKE AN AFRICAN PLANT, THAT IS BEING USED FOR PEOPLE WITH SEVERE ADDICTION PROBLEMS, THESE CAN BE REALLY LONG JOURNEYS, 20 HOURS OR SO.

I THINK THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS THAT THESE EXPERIENCES APPEAR TO INDUCE A STATE OF NEUROMRAS TISTY.

THE BRAIN IS MORE MALLEABLE.

YOU SEE PATTERNS OF THINKING AND BRAIN ACTIVITY THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM SORT OF OUR EVERY DAY MOMENTS.

AND FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN STUCK IN A RUT OF DEPRESSION OR TRAUMA, WHICH OFTENTIMES INCLUDES THIS REALLY OBSESSIVE THINKING, THESE SORT OF RUTS OF, YOU KNOW, FEAR INDUCING AND PAIN INDUCING THOUGHTS THAT YOU JUST CAN'T GET AWAY FROM, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IN THE WAKE OF THESE EXPERIENCES, SO, WHEN THE BRAIN HAS SORT OF UNDERGONE A HARD RESET, YOU ARE ABLE TO PIVOT AWAY FROM THAT AND START SEEING AND THINKING ABOUT THE REASONS YOU BECAME TRAUMATIZED OR DEPRESSED MORE CLEARLY.

AND ONCE YOU'RE ABLE TO DO THAT, SOMETIMES IT'S EASIER TO START FEELING BETTER, AND ALSO, TO START KIND OF UNDERSTANDING THE BEHAVIORS THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR YOU TO FEEL MORE STABLE AND TO BE MORE RESILIENT.

>>?

HAPPENED TO YOU.

YOU DECIDED TO PURSUE THIS.

YOU WERE IN DEPRESSION, AND IT UNLOCKED CERTAIN KEY MEMORIES, AND IT ALLOWED YOU TO DEAL WITH THINGS IN THE PAST.

INSTEAD OF DESCRIBING IT IN THE ABSTRACT, TELL ME ABOUT IT HAPPENING TO YOU.

>> YEAH, I THINK IN MY CASE, WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF CHAPTERS OF MY LIFE, YOU KNOW, PERIODS FROM CHILDHOOD, FROM ADOLESCENCE, THAT I HAD NEVER REALLY GRAPPLED WITH, THAT I HAD NEVER REALLY CRITICALLY EXAMINED, AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THESE INTENSE RITUALS, I WAS DRAWN TO REVISIT THESE MEMORIES, TO SIT WITH SOME OF MY MORE PAINFUL MOMENTS FROM MY CHILDHOOD IN COLOMBIA, FROM THE DIVORCE OF MY PARENTS, YOU KNOW, FROM COMING OUT OF THE CLOSET AS A GAY MAN, AND HOW DESTABILIZING AND SCARY THAT FELT IN THE MOMENT.

MEMORIES OF BEING A WAR CORRESPONDENT, WORKING IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND IT BECAME CLEAR TO ME THAT THERE WAS THIS SORT OF MOSAIC OF REALLY INFORMATIVE EXPERIENCES THAT I HADN'T REALLY HAD EVER MADE THE TIME TO SIT WITH AND PROPERLY ANALYZE.

AND I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN MY CASE, AND WHAT I HEARD REPEATEDLY FROM PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED FOR THIS BOOK, IS, WHEN YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO BACK INTO THESE MEMORIES IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS SAFE, OFTENTIMES, YOU KIND OF WALK AWAY FEELING REAL COMPASSION FOR THIS EARLY VERSION OF YOURSELF.

AND IN DOING SO, OFTENTIMES, YOU ARE ABLE TO REFRAIN THESE MEMORIES IN A WAY THAT MAKES THEM EASIER TO CARRY.

SO, I THINK THE COMMON DENOMINATOR FOR ME, I THINK OF THE WORK I'VE DONE OVER THE YEARS, AIDED BY THESE INTENSE EXPERIENCES.

I WAS ABLE TO SHOW MYSELF COMPASSION THAT WAS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO SHOW MYSELF IN REAL TIME, AND FOR ME, THAT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, KIND OF A BIG THREAD OF WHY I FOUND THESE EXPERIENCES KA THWARTIC, HEALING, BUT ALSO JUST CLARIFYING.

I THINK THEY GAVE ME A BETTER SENSE OF SORT OF THE NARRATIVE ARC OF MY LIFE AND A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE CHOICES I MADE OVER THE YEARS IN RESPONSE TO SOME OF THESE DIFFICULT MOMENTS.

>> YOU BEGIN THE BOOK WITH A STORY OF ROBERT FITZGERALD, A VETERAN, A REPUBLICAN, WHO WALKS INTO A CENTER.

TELL ME ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE, AND HOW THIS TIES INTO THE ROLE OF VETERANS IN THIS ISSUE.

>> YEAH, ROBERT WAS A REALLY FASCINATING CHARACTER I STUMBLED INTO.

HE HAD SIGNED UP FOR A RETREAT IN AUSTIN AT A CHURCH RUN BY A WOMAN WHO USED TO BE A CRACK ADDICT AND A STRIPPER.

AND ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I LEARNED ABOUT ROBERT WAS THAT JUST TWO WEEKS EARLIER, HE HAD PUT A PISTOL IN HIS MOUTH AND CAME VERY CLOSE TO KILLING HIMSELF.

I CHOSE TO START AND END THE BOOK WITH VETERAN STORIES, BECAUSE VETERANS HAVE PLAYED AN OUTSIZED ROLE IN ADVOCATING FOR MORE RESEARCH AND FOR EXPANDED ACCESS INTO THESE THERAPIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THIS ERA OF THE SO-CALLED PSYCHEDELIC RENAISSANCE REALLY INTERESTING.

IT IS BECAUSE VETERANS HAVE BECOME SUCH CHAMPIONS OF THESE THERAPIES, AND SOME, YOU KNOW, THEY BELIEVE SO FIRMLY THAT THIS IS URGENTLY NEEDED FOR MANY OF THEIR COMRADES, THAT THEY BUILT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, SO, YOU HAVE SOME OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERS IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, FIERCELY ADVOCATING FOR EXPANDED ACCESS FOR THESE THERAPIES, NOT JUST FOR VETERANS, BUT IN SOME INSTANCES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON ACTIVE DUTY IN THE MILITARY.

AND YOU HAVE THIS SORT OF UNDERGROUND COMMUNITY WHERE, YOU KNOW, BY WORD OF MOUTH, VETERANS TAKE OTHER VETERANS TO PEOPLE WHERE THEY -- TO PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE FOUND HEALING.

SO, THE ROLE OF VETERANS HAS BEEN REALLY PARAMOUNT, AND I THINK WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO.

WE CONTINUE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, A V.A.

STRUGGLING WITH THE SUICIDE RATE IN THE VETERAN COMMUNITY, AND WITH PTSD RATES THAT ARE STILL VERY, VERY HIGH, AND LEAD MANY PEOPLE TO BE DISABLED EARLY IN THEIR LIVES AND CAREERS.

>> ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS, YOU HAVE A DEA AGENT WHO IS A CONSULTANT TO SOME OF THE INDUSTRY, AND I THINK HE SAYS, THERE'S GOING TO BE A DISASTER DOWN THE ROAD.

TELL ME ABOUT THE DOWNSIDES THERE.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S CONCERN THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING FRANCHISES, ESPECIALLY IN THE CHURCH SETTING, ARE PLAYING FAST AND LOOSE, ARE NOT ADEQUATELY SCREENING APPLICANTS.

THERE WAS A CASE IN A CHURCH IN FLORIDA IN 2018 WHERE A YOUNG MAN DIED DURING CEREMONY, AND THE PEOPLE ORGANIZING THE CEREMONY WERE RELUCTANT TO CALL THE POLICE.

THERE WAS A CIVIL LAWSUIT, AND A JURY IN FLORIDA RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, FOUND THAT THE OPERATOR OF THE RETREAT WAS AT FAULT IN THE DEATH.

SO, I THINK THERE'S GOOD REASON TO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS MORE PEOPLE ARE DRAWN TO THESE EXPERIENCES, MANY PEOPLE WILL BE HEALED, BUT A FAIR NUMBER OF PEOPLE WILL GET HURT.

AND THAT MAY GIVE THE WHOLE MOVEMENT A BAD NAME, A BAD REPUTATION, AND IT COULD LEAD TO THE KIND OF BACKLASH WE SAW BACK IN THE '60s AND '70s WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT THAT THIS WAS OUT OF CONTROL.

>> YEAH, THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE HARMFUL, THINGS THAT ARE HEALING.

WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE OUT OF THIS BOOK, AT THE END OF THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT DRUGS THAT HARM AND DRUGS THAT HEAL, AND HAVING A MIND-SET THAT WILL ALLOW US TO APPROACH THIS.

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO DO WHEN THEY READ THIS BOOK?

>> I MEAN, I HOPE PEOPLE WALK AWAY WITH HOPE, THAT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, REAL POTENTIAL IN THESE COMPOUNDS, BUT ALSO, THAT THERE'S A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO GET THIS RIGHT, THAT THERE'S A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR REGULATORS AND POLICY MAKERS TO THINK THROUGH THESE COMPLICATED QUESTIONS AND TO CREATE SETTINGS AND PROTOCOLS THAT ARE GOING TO BE SAFER.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE ROOM BOTH FOR A CLINICAL LANE AND FOR MORE SORT OF A SPIRITUAL AND RITUALISTIC LANE, BUT I THINK ACROSS THE BOARD, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTING AETICILY, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE -- AND WE NEED PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS AND THE RISKS OF THESE THERAPIES, AND TO REALLY THINK THROUGH WHAT KIND OF GUARDRAILS ARE IDEAL TO MAKE THESE EXPERIENCES AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.

>> ERNESTO LONDONO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

>> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.