June 12, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ARE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH OUR PLANET.

>> HOTTER AND HOTTER.

AS CLIMATE RECORDS CONTINUE TO SHATTER, I SPEAK TO PROFESSOR LEAH STOKES, AND WRITER GEORGE PACKER, WHO IS JUST BACK FROM SCORCHING PHOENIX, ARIZONA.

THEN -- >> FINALLY, TO THE GAME OF TENNIS, I LOVE YOU, AND WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU.

>> ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

DIRECTORS ASIF KA PAD YA AND JOE SAB YA BRING US NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE OF TENNIS ICON ROGER FEDERER'S FINAL DAYS ON COURT.

PLUS -- >> AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT HOW UNHAPPY THEY ARE WITH THE AMERICAN TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.

>> PROFESSOR LEAH RIGUEUR TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE BLACK VOTER DYNAMICS THAT COULD SWING THE U.S. ELECTION.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TODAY, GREECE CLOSED SCHOOLS AND EVEN THE ACROPOLIS DUE TO SOARING TEMPERATURES, AS G7 LEADERS TRAVEL TO ITALY TO DISCUSS THE PLANET'S BIGGEST THREATS, INCLUDING THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

LAST MONTH WAS THE HOTTEST MAY EVER, MARKING THE 12th CONSECUTIVE MONTH THAT RECORDS WERE BROKEN.

IN NORTH AMERICA, A HEAT DOME STRETCHED ACROSS MEXICO AND THE SOUTHWEST UNITED STATES IN RECENT WEEKS, KILLING DOZENS OF PEOPLE.

LISTEN TO ONE WOMAN DESCRIBE THE FEELING IN ARIZONA.

>> TO BE HONEST, IT FEELS LIKE SOMEONE GRABS A BLOW DRIER AND IS JUST BLOWING IT STRAIGHT IN YOUR FACE.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT FEELS.

IT'S REALLY HOT.

SOMETIMES, IF YOU GO OUTSIDE, YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T BREATHE.

>> CAUGHT BETWEEN INCREASING CLIMATE DISASTER AND TOXIC PARTISAN POLITICS ARE PEOPLE LIKE THAT, MANY OF WHOM WHO ARE LIVING IN THE REALITY OF CLIMATE CHANGE RIGHT NOW.

IN A MAJOR NEW COVER STORY FOR "THE ATLANTIC," GEORGE PACKER SPENT MONTHS REPORTING FROM PHOENIX, ARIZONA, EXPLORING THE GROWTH FUELING URBAN EXPANSION, EVEN AS THE WATER RUNS DRY AND THE HEAT KILLS HUNDREDS.

BUT PACKER FOUND SOME GLIMMERS OF HOPE, WRITING, QUOTE, PARTISANSHIP MATTERED LESS THAN FACTS.

DISINFORMATION AND CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING HAD NO ANSWER FOR A DRY WELL.

AND GEORGE PACKER JOINING ME, ALONG WITH PROFESSOR LEAH STOKES, AN EXPERT IN CLIMATE AND ENERGY POLICY, AND COHOST OF THE PODCAST "A MATTER OF DEGREES."

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

GEORGE PACKER, I JUST WANT TO START, BECAUSE YOURS IS ENTITLED "PHOENIX IS A VISION OF AMERICA'S FUTURE."

DESCRIBE HOW.

WHAT ARE ALL THE INTERSECTING ISSUES THAT MAKE IT A VISION OF THE FUTURE?

>> YEAH, "THE ATLANTIC" WANTED ME TO GO SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD GIVE US AT LEAST A LABORATORY WHERE WE COULD SEE HOW AMERICA IS DOING AND WHERE IT'S GOING, AND PHOENIX, I THINK, IS ABOUT AS GOOD A LAB AS YOU CAN FIND, BECAUSE IT REALLY HAS ALL THE MAJOR THEMES AND CONFLICTS AND HERB SH ISSUES OF OUR TIME.

IT HAS POLITICAL EXTREMISM IN A BIG WAY, EVERY ELECTION YEAR IS A TENSE YEAR IN ARIZONA, AND THIS YEAR IS NO EXCEPTION.

IT HAS A CLIMATE CRISIS THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

AND THAT I REPORTED ON IN MY PIECE, WITH UNBEARABLE HEAT, AS WELL AS DISAPPEARING WATER, IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATE.

AND IT ALSO HAS THE BORDER, AND IMMIGRATION, AS A HUGE FACTOR IN THE COMING ELECTION.

ABORTION IS ANOTHER ONE.

IT'S GOT THIS INCREDIBLE NEXUS OF ISSUES, SOME OF WHICH DIVIDE PEOPLE, ALMOST HOPELESSLY, AND OTHERS HAVE THIS ODD EFFECT OF OVERCOMING SOME OF THE DIVISIONS THAT SEEM SO PERMANENT IN OUR COUNTRY.

>> SO, BEFORE WE GET TO SOME OF THE POLICIES AND THINGS, I JUST WANT TO READ A LITTLE BIT FROM OUR ARTICLE, BECAUSE YOU EXPERIENCED THAT EXTREME HEAT FIRST-HAND.

AND YOU STRUGGLED TO WALK, EVEN A MILE FROM YOUR HOTEL TO AN INTERVIEW WITHOUT FEELING UNWELL.

HERE'S A QUOTE.

"LAST SUMMER, HEAT OFFICIALLY HELPED KILL 644 PEOPLE IN MARICOPA COUNTY.

THEY WERE THE ELDERLY, THE SICK, THE MENTALLY ILL, THE ISOLATED, THE HOMELESS, THE ADDICTED.

METHAMPHETAMINES CAUSING DEHYDRATION AND FENTANYL IMPAIRS THOUGHT.

AND THOSE TOO POOR TO FIX OR HAVE AIR CONDITIONING.

EVEN TOUCHING THE PAVEMENT IS DANGEROUS."

YOU KNOW, WERE YOU PREPARED FOR THAT KIND OF EXTREME?

>> NO.

I DON'T LIKE REALLY HOT WEATHER.

SO, I DREADED IT.

BUT WHEN YOU'RE IN IT, YOU HAVE THIS SENSE OF REAL DANGER, IMMINENT DANGER.

IF I LOSE MY WAY ON A WALK, IF I STAY OUT TOO LONG, IF I CAN'T FIND WATER, YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS, PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE IN THE WAYS THAT I DESCRIBED, ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES EVERY DAY, AND DYING EVERY DAY.

THE EMERGENCY ROOMS OVER THE SUMMER FILL UP WITH PEOPLE COMING IN WHOSE BODY TEMPERATURES ARE 106 OR 107, WHICH IS HEAT STROKE, AND CAN BE FATAL.

PEOPLE FIND WAYS OF COPING.

THE CITY OF PHOENIX HAS LOTS OF INNOVATIVE METHODS OF ALLOWING PEOPLE TO COME INSIDE AND COOL OFF IN THESE COOLING BUSES AND COOLING BUILDINGS.

THEY'RE TRYING TO PLANT MORE TREES AND BUILD MORE SHELTERS, BECAUSE IT'S A KIND OF NAKED, EXPOSED CITY IN THE SUMMER.

BUT IT ALL FEELS UNSUSTAINABLE, BECAUSE DRIVING, WHICH IS ONE WAY TO COOL OFF, BECAUSE YOU'RE IN YOUR CAR, WHICH IS AIR CONDITIONED, IS ALSO BURNING YOU UP, BECAUSE AIR CONDITIONING CAUSES 4% OF GLOBAL EMISSIONS.

SO, THERE -- AND THE TEMPERATURE RISES EVERY YEAR.

THERE IS NO ABATING OF IT, AND WHO KNOWS WHERE IT WILL BE IN 25 YEARS.

SO, THERE IS A SENSE OF EIGHT MONTHS OF THE YEAR, IT'S PARADISE, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE MOVE THERE, AND FOUR MONTHS OF THE YEAR, IT'S DEADLY.

>> LEAH STOKES, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU STUDY THIS, YOU ALSO STUDY THE, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICS AROUND IT, ENVIRONMENTAL POLITICS.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GEORGE SAID, HE QUOTED IN HIS BOOK -- IN THE ARTICLE, WHISKEY IS FOR DRINKING, WATER IS FOR FIGHTING.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LACK OF WATER, BUT PEOPLE DIDN'T SEEM TO THINK THAT THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, SHOULD BE AN ELECTION ISSUE OR POLITICAL ISSUE.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING IN TERMS OF THE POLITICS AROUND THIS NOW?

>> UH-HUH.

WELL, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, THE FACT IS, AS WE JUST HEARD, THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS HAPPENING NOW.

FOR DECADES, IT WAS SORT OF VIEWED AS A PROBLEM FOR THE FUTURE.

SOMETHING THAT WOULD EFFECT OUR GRANDCHILDREN OR MAYBE POORER PEOPLE IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, YOU KNOW, MAYBE SOMETHING FOR SOMEBODY ELSE.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THAT THIS IS THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

IT IS ON OUR DOORSTEPS.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES AT JUST 1.25 DEGRES WARMING.

WHAT HAPPENS IF WE BLOW PAST 1.5 DEGREES?

WHAT IF WE GO TO 2 DEGREES OR 2.5 DEGREES?

WHAT DOES LIFE LOOK LIKE FOR EVERYDAY PEOPLE?

THIS IS BECOMING A REALLY IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUE.

AND IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE UPCOMING ELECTION THIS FALL, THERE'S GOING TO BE A VERY CLEAR CHOICE BETWEEN SOMEBODY WHO SAYS HE, QUOTE, WANTS TO BE A DICTATOR ON DAY ONE, TO DRILL, DRILL, DRILL, THAT'S, OF COURSE, DONALD TRUMP, AND SOMEBODY WHO REALLY IS THE BEST CLIMATE PRESIDENT THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER SEEN, AND HAS REALLY FOCUSED ON THIS ISSUE.

SO, WILL THAT PLAY OUT IN THE ELECTION, WILL PEOPLE SHOW UP TO VOTE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN BECAUSE OF HIS CLIMATE RECORD?

I THINK IT'S TOO EARLY TO TELL, BUT WE'RE CERTAINLY SEEING THE IMPACTS THAT ARE HITTING EVERYDAY AMERICANS EVERY DAY.

>> LEAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE POLITICS, BECAUSE GEORGE SAYS, YOU KNOW, SOLVING THE PROBLEM OF WATER DEPENDS ON SOLVING THE PROBLEM OF DEMOCRACY.

HERE'S ANOTHER QUOTE.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THERE IS MORE RADICAL THAN ANY OTHER STATE, BUT THE CHIEF QUALIFICATION FOR VIABILITY IS AN EMBARRASSINGLY DISCREDITED BELIEF IN RIGGED ELECTIONS.

SO, YOU'VE GOT THAT.

HOW DOES THAT EFFECT WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT CLIMATE POLICY, LEAH, BECAUSE, THERE ARE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO DO BELIEVE, I MEAN, THEY MAY BE A SMALL GROUP, BUT THEY DO BELIEVE THAT CLIMATE SHOULD BE A UNIFIER, AND WAY BACK WHEN, REPUBLICANS WERE, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T A PARTISAN ISSUE.

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IN MY BOOK AND MANY OR POLITICAL SCIENTISTS HAVE STUDIED.

IN THE PAST, RIGHT WING PARTIES AROUND THE WORLD WERE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF CLIMATE ACTION.

FOR EXAMPLE, GEORGE H.W.

BUSH AND EVEN GEORGE W. BUSH WERE SUPPORTIVE OF DOING THINGS ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY HAS REALLY TAKEN HOLD OF RIGHT WING PARTIES, LIKE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT MANY RIGHT WING PARTIES AROUND THE WORD.

THEY HAVE BECOME REALLY A CHIEF CONSTITUENCY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND YOU'LL HEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, SENATOR WHITEHOUSE FROM RHODE ISLAND TALK ABOUT THIS A LOT.

THE UNLIMITED CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE POST-CITIZENS UNITED WORLD MEANS THAT FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES CAN POUR SO MUCH MONEY INTO OUR ELECTIONS, AND THEY REALLY HAVE PRIMARIED THE FEW REPUBLICANS, PEOPLE LIKE REPRESENTATIVE BOB ENGLIS, WHO CARED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND EVEN PEOPLE LIKE SENATOR McCAIN, FROM ARIZONA, WHO CARED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

THESE PEOPLE WERE CHALLENGED, IN PART, WITH FOSSIL FUEL MONEY BY HAVING THESE PRIMARY CHALLENGES.

AND THAT IS PART OF WHY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS MOVED SO FAR AWAY FROM CLIMATE ACTION.

>> AND GEORGE, WHEN YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, GETTING TEST MOAN Y'ALLS FROM ALL THESE PEOPLE, WHISKEY IS FOR DRINKING, WATER IS FOR FIGHTING, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO CONSPIRACY THEORY, I'M PARAPHRASING NOW, THAT CAN ACCOUNT FOR A DRY WELL.

WHAT FEELING DID YOU GET FROM ORDINARY PEOPLE IN PHOENIX ABOUT WHETHER THIS WAS AN ISSUE THAT SHOULD BE LEGISLATED, THAT CLIMATE SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT GOVERNMENTS NOT JUST INDIVIDUALS TAKE CARE OF?

>> I THINK WHEN YOU PUT IT IN THE BIGGEST TERMS POSSIBLE, WHICH IS CLIMATE CHANGE, IT IMMEDIATELY GETS PULLED INTO THE VORTEX OF THE CULTURE WARS AND THE PARTISAN WARS, AND THE SIDES LINE UP, AND NOTHING GETS DONE LEGISLATIVELY.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT LOCALLY, AND IN TERMS OF A COMMUNITY'S WATER SUPPLY, OR EVEN THE WELL IN SOMEBODY'S BACKYARD IN A RURAL COUNTY, A CONSERVATIVE RURAL COUNTY IN SOUTHERN ARIZONA, ONCE PEOPLE FIND THAT THEY'RE LOSING THEIR WATER, AND IT'S -- IN ARIZONA, IT'S PARTLY BECAUSE IN RURAL AREAS, THERE IS NO REGULATION.

PHOENIX IS HIGHLY REGULATED, AND PHOENIX HAS A LOT OF WATER, IT'S NOT ABOUT TO RUN OUT, BUT EXURBAN COMMUNITIES AROUND PHOENIX AND EVEN MORE RURAL AREAS AROUND THE STATE ARE RISKING THEIR GROUNDWATER, AND IT'S BECAUSE IT'S UNREGULATED AND BIG BUSINESSES ARE COMING IN FROM OUT OF STATE, AND EVEN FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, AND PUMPING RELENTLESSLY.

LOCAL PEOPLE, INCLUDING MAGA REPUBLICANS, ARE UPSET ABOUT THAT.

AND ARE NOW STARTING TO DEMAND THAT THEIR STATE REPRESENTATIVES ALLOW LEGISLATION TO PASS THAT WOULD REGULATE GROUNDWATER.

IT'S STILL STUCK IN THE PARTISAN GEARS OF THE ARIZONA STATE LEGISLATURE, BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS TO WATCH ACTUAL PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF THAT FACT, MY WELL IS DRY, CHANGED THE MIND OF A VOTER, AND THAT SEEMS TO ME LIKE THE BEGINNING OF A SANE POLITICS AROUND CLIMATE.

>> IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN IT HAPPENS TO ME, NO MATTER WHAT SIDE OF THE POLITICAL AISLE I AM ON, I CAN SEE THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF IT.

AND IN YOUR PIECE, BASICALLY, YOU SAY, JOE BIDEN'S INFRASTRUCTURE, MICROCHIP CLIMATE BILLS ARE SENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE VALLEY, WHERE YOU WERE, BUT I HARDLY EVER HEARD THEM MENTIONED.

I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU, WE'RE NOT HEARING MUCH ABOUT CLIMATE IN, YOU KNOW, IN ANY OF THE POLITICAL MANIFESTOS, TALKING POINTS THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE USING RIGHT NOW, ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

LEAH, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL VOTE ON CLIMATE, YOUNG PEOPLE?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY HOPE SO.

YOU KNOW, THE FACT IS, THE REPUBLICANS HAVE PUT OUT A PLAN, IT'S CALLED PROJECT 2025, AND PEOPLE LIKE BILL McKIBBON HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, AND IT IS A PLAN TO DISMANTLE FEDERAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

GETTING RID OF NOAA, WHICH KEEPS TRACK OF DATA AROUND WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR EARTH.

THEY WANT TO DISMANTLE THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.

WE SAW WHAT A FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WOULD DO, ROLLING BACK, YOU KNOW, ALMOST 100 ENVIRONMENTAL RULES, PULLING US OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT, AND WHAT DOES A WELL-ORGANIZED SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LOOK LIKE?

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, LOOK AT THAT PROJECT 2025 DOCUMENT.

IT'S VERY SCARY.

BY CONTRAST, WHAT THE BIDEN FOLKS WANT TO DO IS, THEY WANT TO KEEP DELIVERING.

AS YOU'RE SAYING, WHY DON'T PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT IT MORE?

WELL, THIS LAW IS JUST BEGINNING TO ROLL OUT.

AND WE REALLY NEED THOSE FOUR MORE YEARS FOR ALL OF THOSE JOBS TO START ROLLING INTO THESE COMMUNITIES, FOR PEOPLE TO GET ELECTRIC VEHICLES, FOR THEM TO PUT IN A HEAT PUMP, TO START SEEING THOSE BENEFITS.

LAWS TAKE TIME TO REALLY TAKE HOLD.

AND WITH THOSE CRUCIAL YEARS BEFORE 2030, WHOEVER WINS THIS FALL ELECTION WILL REALLY BE REWRITING, YOU KNOW, WORLD HISTORY, WHEN IT COMES TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS, SO, I CERTAINLY HOPE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE CLIMATE STAKES OF THIS ELECTION, BECAUSE THEY'RE MONUMENTAL.

>> WELL, INTERESTING, ONE OF HIS PREVIOUS TRANSITION PEOPLE DID SAY THAT -- THAT THEY WOULD REVERSE EVERYTHING THAT BIDEN HAS DONE.

DO EITHER OF YOU KNOW WHETHER ANY OF BIDEN'S CLIMATE INITIATIVES HAVE A SORT OF BAKED IN, OR, ALL OR MANY OF THEM, REVERSIBLE?

GEORGE?

>> WELL, WHAT I WOULD ADD TO WHAT PROFESSOR STOKES SAID IS, I'M NOT SURE THAT POLICY AND VOTING ARE AS CONNECTED AS WE THINK THEY ARE.

OR AS THEY USED TO BE.

I THINK PEOPLE VOTE MORE AND MORE ALONG WHAT I WOULD CALL TRIBAL LINES THIS IS MY IDENTITY, THIS IS WHO I VOTE FOR.

AND IF THEY DISCOVER THAT BIDEN'S THREE BIG LEGISLATIVE ACHIEVEMENTS HAVE BROUGHT A BATTERY PLANT TO THEIR TOWN, THEY MAY NOT THINK, THEREFORE, I WILL VOTE FOR BIDEN.

IT MAY JUST KIND OF GO IN ONE EAR AND OUT THE OTHER.

I SAW A LOT OF THAT, JUST -- NATIONAL POLITICS AND THE INS AND OUTS OF WASHINGTON LEGISLATION HAVING VERY LITTLE EFFECT ON PEOPLE'S THINKING ABOUT THE ELECTION.

AND IT'S ALSO, I THINK, THE FAILURE OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ITSELF TO DEFEND ITS ACHIEVEMENTS, AND TO SPEAK FOR THEM.

AND THAT GOES TO THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, WHO IS NOT A MASTER OF RHETORIC AND RHETORIC IS IMPORTANT IN POLITICS.

I DO THINK WE SHOULDN'T EXPECT THERE TO BE A LOGICAL CAUSE AND EFFECT, IF A BILL GETS PASSED BY A PRESIDENT, THAT LEADS TO CERTAIN ELECTORAL RESULTS.

>> AND PROFESSOR STOKES, YOU KNOW OVERSEAS, WE'VE JUST SEEN THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS, AND THE GREENS DIDN'T DO VERY WELL, WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT TO WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST TIME, WHEN THERE WERE THESE PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS.

YOU KNOW, ALL THIS EMOTION AND ENTHUSIASM AROUND GRETA THUNBERG, WHICH POWERED A SORT OF MMENTUM IN EUROPE, SEEMS TO NOT HAVE MATERIALIZED.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING OVERSEAS?

BECAUSE EVEN THE EUROPEANS HAVE TRIED TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, A GREEN RECOVERY, SO TO SPEAK.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, LOOK, THE POLLING GOING INTO THOSE ELECTIONS IN THE LAST FEW DAYS WAS WORSE THAN WHAT THE ACTUAL OUTCOME WAS.

IT'S TRUE THAT THE GREEN PARTIES DID NOT DO VERY WELL AND THERE WAS SOME SURGING IN THE FAR RIGHT, BUT IT WAS NOT AS BAD AS PEOPLE WERE PREDICTING IN THE POLLS, AND THE COALITION THAT WILL CONTINUE TO GOVERN DOES WANT CLIMATE ACTION.

AND OF COURSE, AS YOU KNOW, WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS WHO IS CONTROLLING THE COUNTRIES IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ELECTION COMING UP IN THE UK, WITHIN A MONTH, WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE LABOR GOVERNMENT -- THE LABOR PARTY MAY REGAIN GOVERNMENT.

IT'S GOING TO BE CRUCIAL THAT THEY ACTUALLY GOVERN ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

THAT THEY USE THESE YEARS UP UNTIL 2030 TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE AS YOU WERE SAYING, WE COULD BE SEEING ROLL-BACKS IN THE UNITED STATES.

IN FACT, WE WOULD BE, IF DONALD TRUMP BECOMES PRESIDENT.

AND SO, COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORD REALLY NEED TO BE ELECTING CLIMATE LEADERS AND HAVING THEM DELIVER, BECAUSE 2030 IS JUST REALLY ONE ELECTION CYCLE AWAY.

THE ELECTIONS THIS YEAR WILL DETERMINE THE FATE OF OUR CLIMATE GOALS.

>> BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF THOSE BENCHMARK YEARS FOR ACHIEVING ALL THE -- THE DATES AND THE LIMITS THAT WE'VE BEEN TOLD BY THE U.N. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON YOUNG PEOPLE, FOR INSTANCE, IN MONTANA AND THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE, ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THE U.S. AND IN PLACES LIKE, I THINK IT WAS SWITZERLAND, WHO TOOK, YOU KNOW, THE AUTHORITIES, GOVERNMENT, WHOEVER IT WAS, TO COURT FOR THEIR OWN HUMAN RIGHTS, IN TERMS OF THE RIGHT TO BE, YOU KNOW, HEALTHY, AND TO HAVE THEIR WILDLIFE, ET CETERA.

DO YOU THINK, LEAH AND EVEN GEORGE, THAT THEY HAVE WEIGHT IN THE POLITICAL UNIVERSE RIGHT NOW?

FIRST TO YOU, PROFESSOR STOKES.

>> YEAH, I REALLY THINK THAT GEORGE'S REPORTING IS SHOW WHAT THE FRONT LINES OF CLIMATE CHANGE LOOK LIKE.

AS ARE THESE COURT CASES.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE CONNECTING THE DOTS.

THEY'RE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING NOW, AND THAT'S EVEN STARTING TO BREAK SOME OF THE PARTISAN DIVISION, AS GEORGE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

AND SO, THESE COURT CASES ARE REALLY STARTING TO CHANGE THE DIALOGUE.

THERE'S ALSO LAWS BEGINNING TO BE PASSED, LIKE IN VERMONT, REALLY JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS, THAT SAY THAT THE FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES WHO LIED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, THEY WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING FOR SOME OF THE DAMAGES THAT THEY'VE CAUSED.

SO, WE'RE REALLY MOVING INTO THE CLIMATE CHANGE ERA, WHERE DAMAGES ARE HAPPENING NOW, AND I THINK THAT IS GOING TO START TO SHIFT THE POLITICS.

>> AND LAST FINAL QUICK WORD TO YOU, GEORGE, DID YOU COME AWAY WITH ANY OPTIMISM FROM ALL OF THAT VERY INTENSE REPORTING?

>> AGAIN, WHEN I WAS VERY CLOSE TO PEOPLE'S LIVES AS THEY LIVED THEM, AND AS THEY EXPERIENCED THEM, YES.

PEOPLE WERE SANE, THEY WERE RATIONAL, THEY MADE RATIONAL CHOICES ABOUT WHAT THEY NEEDED IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THEY WOULD HAVE WATER, OR EVEN THEY WOULD NOT DIE OF HEAT.

BUT I THINK THE BIGGEST THIS ISSUE GETS, THE MORE ABSTRACT, THE MORE GLOBAL, THE HARDER IT IS TO MOVE PEOPLE ON IT.

CLIMATE IS A VERY LOW PRIORITY IN MOST POLLS BEFORE ELECTIONS.

IT MATTERS HUGELY WHO GETS ELECTED, AS PROFESSOR STOKES WAS SAYING, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY GET PEOPLE ELECTED, AND THAT'S THE WORRY I HAVE YEAR AFTER YEAR AND WHY WE KEEP KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD.

>> GEORGE PACKER, PROFESSOR LEAH STOKES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO A TRUE LEGEND.

WHEN TENNIS GREAT ROGER FEDERER RETIRED TWO YEARS AGO, IT WAS THE END OF AN EXTRAORDINARY CAREER.

HE WRACKED UP THE TITLES WHILE APPEARING EERILY CALM AND GROUNDED.

NOW, A NEW DOCUMENTARY TAKES A LOOK AT THE SWISS GIANT, FOLLOWING HIM BEHIND THE SCENES IN THE LAST 12 DAYS OF HIS CAREER.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> I FELT UNTIL THIS MORNING I HAD EMOTIONS IN CHECK, BUT I CAN FEEL IT COMING UP.

♪♪♪ >> HE WILL PLAY THE LAVER CUP, THAT WILL BE THE LAST MUCH OF HIS CAREER.

DJOKOVIC, NADAL, MURRAY, THEY'RE ALL GOING TO BE THERE.

>> I WILL NOT HAVE THIS FEELING AGAIN.

IT'S PAINFUL.

>> A MOUNTAIN OF MEMORIES ARE FLOODING BACK TO HIM RIGHT NOW.

>> THESE ARE THE NERVES I'M GOING TO MISS ONCE I'M OFFICIALLY RETIRED.

FINALLY, TO THE GAME OF TENNIS, I LOVE YOU AND WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU.

>> THE FILM IS CALLED "FEDERER: 12 FINAL DAYS" AND CODIRECTED BY ASIF KAPADIA, KNOWN FOR HUGHLY ACCLAIMED DOCUMENTARIES, AND JOBE JOE SABIA.

BOTH JOIN ME HERE ON-SET.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, HOW DID YOU, YOU KNOW, -- DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS?

HOW DID IT COME ABOUT?

>> WELL, I WAS SAYING, I DIDN'T SEARCH FOR THIS, THIS KIND OF SEARCHED FOR ME, BECAUSE IN 2013, I INTERVIEWED ROGER FOR "73 QUESTIONS," AND WE BATH A BOTH HAD A GOOD EXPERIENCE.

WHEN 2022 COMES AROUND, I GET INVITED INTO HIS OFFICE, WHERE HIS AGENT, TONY, SAYS, TOP SECRET, DON'T TELL ANYONE, BUT ROGER IS GOING TO RETIRE NEXT WEEK AND GOING TO DO IT VIA HIS INSTAGRAM PAGE IN AN AUDIO MESSAGE.

IN 12 DAYS AFTER THAT, HE'S GOING TO PLAY HIS LAST MATCH.

SHOULD WE FILM SOMETHING?

I'M LIKE, OF COURSE WE SHOULD.

>> SO, FILM SOMETHING AS A PERSONAL MEMENTO?

>> HE'S A PRIVATE GUY, SO, I THINK THERE WERE RESERVATIONS, ESPECIALLY FROM ROGER, I DON'T WANT TO PUT THIS OUT TO THE WORLD, LIKE, I'M SO PRIVATE, SO, THE OPPORTUNITY AROSE TO SAY, OKAY, WELL, WE CAN GO IN HIS HOME FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE'RE GOING TO CAPTURE HIS CHILDREN FOR THE FIRST TIME, HIS WIFE MAY GIVE AN INTERVIEW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS.

SO, I AGREED THIS SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT'S PRIVATE, IT SHOULD PROBABLY NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AND THAT GAVE ROGER THE COMFORT TO ALLOW ME, ANOTHER CAMERAMAN, AND A SOUND GUY, TO CAPTURE IT ALL.

>> AND THEN HOW DID YOU COME INTO THIS, ASIF?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE A RECORD AS THE PREEMINENT SPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTARIANS, BUT HOW DID YOU GET INTO THIS?

>> I KNEW NOTHING.

I DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS.

>> YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS GOING TO RETIRE?

>> I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

I DIDN'T KNOW JOE.

I JUST WAS SENT, LIKE, SOME TERM, I WAS SENT A LINK, SAYING, HAVE A LOOK AT THIS, WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN TURNING IT INTO A FEATURE FILM?

BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN CREATED, IT'S A HOME MOVIE.

AND TO BE HONEST, I WAS LIKE, I'M NOT SURE THIS IS FOR ME.

BUT I WATCHED IT AND I FOUND IT REALLY EMOTIONAL.

THIS IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT'S NOT A LIFE STORY.

IT'S ABOUT GETTING OLD.

>> EXACTLY.

EXACTLY.

IT'S NOT THE WHOLE ARC OF A FANTASTIC CAREER.

IT'S THOSE 12 FINAL DAYS.

SO, EMOTIONAL, I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP, YOU HAVE GIVEN US A FEW CLIPS, AND THIS IS, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S QUITE FUNNY, BECAUSE FEDERER'S KNOWN FOR BEING QUITE EMOTIONAL.

LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP.

>> YEAH, NO PROBLEM.

>> I FEEL LIKE I'M READY TO START.

AND GET IT BEHIND ME.

THAT'S HOW I FEEL, MY GOD.

HOPEFULLY I WILL NOT BE USING THOSE TISSUES TODAY.

BUT I'M AN EMOTIONAL GUY, SO, WE'LL NEVER KNOW.

>> I MEAN, WERE YOU HAVING TO SORT OF NAVIGATE HIS, YOU KNOW, THE TAP WORKS THROUGHOUT?

>> I JUST ARRIVED FROM A FLIGHT FROM SWITZERLAND THAT MORNING, AND I'M IN THAT ROOM, I LOST MY LUGGAGE, IT DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR DAYS AND WE'RE JUST FIGURING OUT, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO THIS WITH JUST TWO CAMERAS AND A SOUND GUY?

SO, EVERYTHING YOU SEE IS JUST -- THERE'S NO TIME TO PLAN OR PREP.

SO, JUST SHOOT.

HE'S IN THAT MOMENT, YOU'RE WATCHING THE FEELS, THE NERVES, YOU'RE WATCHING HIM GO THROUGH SOMETHING, LIKE, LOOKING OFF OF THE EDGE OF A CLIFF.

AND FEELING LIKE YOU'RE ABOUT TO JUMP.

AND THAT WAS THAT MOMENT.

THAT WAS THE TENSION IN THE ROOM.

IT WAS SO SPECIAL.

>> AND THEN, YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT.

WHAT WAS -- HOW DID YOU THEN SHAPE THE STORY?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS ACTUALLY REALLY INTERESTING END OF A PERSON'S CAREER?

>> YEAH.

FOR ME, I -- IT IS ALWAYS INTERESTING TO SAY, WELL, WHAT IS THIS FILM GOING TO BE?

WHAT IS IT ABOUT?

I'M OF A CERTAIN AGE NOW, I'M LOOKING AT IT GOING, WELL, I'M A DIRECTOR, I HOPE I CAN DIRECT IN MY 60s, 70s, 80s, IF I WANT.

IF YOU ARE AN ATHLETE, THERE'S A POINT WHERE YOUR BODY JUST CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE, SO, I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING.

AND ALSO, THE WAY I READ THIS, LIGHT MY OTHER FILMS, I WAS GIVEN THIS ARCHIVE.

ALL THIS MATERIAL OF A PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME.

I DIDN'T KNOW JOE AT THE TIME, I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

I HADN'T MET ROGER.

AND I JUST STARTED LOOKING AT HIM WITH MY EDITOR, AND THEN THE IDEA WAS, WELL, LET'S KEEP IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

LET'S JUST PROTECT THAT FORM, FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, BUT THROUGH IT, WE GO OFF TO TANGENTS, WE GO TO THE PAST, THE HISTORY OF GREAT TENNIS PLAYERS THAT ALL APPEAR AT DIFFERENT POINTS, LAVER, BORG, McENROE.

>> NADAL.

>> AND NADAL, OF COURSE, AND HIS FRIENDS AND RIVALS.

WE'RE IN THE LOCKER ROOM, WE'RE IN THE CAR, IN THE ELEVATOR, WE MEET THE FAMILY.

AND IT WAS JUST THIS IDEA OF TELLING A CHARACTER STORY, BUT THROUGH A VERY SMALL FRAMING DEVICE.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING.

>> I HADN'T SEEN THAT BEFORE.

AND I WILL SAY, FOR THE FIRST 27 MINUTES, I WAS -- IT'S AN HOUR AND 27 MINUTES AND I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WHY ARE YOU GOING?

BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FIRST BIT OF HIM ANNOUNCING AND ALL THE REST OF IT, BUT THEN IT SUDDENLY GOT INTO THIS CHAPTER, PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT AGING, THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT RETIRING, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE, YOU KNOW, KNOCKED OFF THEIR PEDESTAL.

DO YOU THINK THAT -- WAS IT JUST THE KNEE?

WHAT WAS IT THAT CAUSED HIM TO RETIRE THEN?

WAS IT THE INJURIES?

>> I THINK THE KNEE SURGERIES HAD A LARGE PART TO DO WITH IT, FOR SURE.

I THINK THE KNEES MADE HIM A DIFFERENT PLAYER, MADE HIM -- BUT MORE SIGNIFICANTLY, I THINK IT FORCED HIM TO BE JUST A NORMAL HUMAN TO REALIZE THAT AGE CATCHES UP WITH -- WITH EVERYONE AT A CERTAIN POINT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ASIF LATCHED ONTO WHEN ROGER'S COACH SAYS THAT EPIC LINE, ATHLETES DIE TWICE.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU'RE NOTICING IS A REAL-TIME MOMENT BY MOMENT OBSERVATION AND REALIZATION OF THIS FACT.

AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO COMPELLING, IS THAT THIS IS SO RAW, THIS IS -- THERE'S A SUBTLETY TO THIS, BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE FACT THAT NO ONE'S GIVING THEIR SAY ABOUT HOW IT ALL NEEDS TO UNFOLD THERE'S NO DEVELOPMENT EXECUTIVES TELLING ROGER HOW TO DO THIS.

SO, YOU ARE CAPTURING SOMETHING THAT FEELS UNIQUE IN A TIME WHERE PEOPLE EXPECT FOR DOCS TO BE SO LOUD.

>> AND THE FACT HE WAS JUST GOING TO RETIRE, HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST EVER, I MEAN, AND IT WAS JUST GOING TO PUT SOMETHING ON SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU KNOW, GOES TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THERE WAS NO BIG, YOU KNOW, DIRECTION ABOUT HOW TO -- HOW TO STEP OFF THE STAGE.

AND I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP, COMPARING HIS OWN TEMPERAMENT TO, LET'S SAY DJOKOVIC'S.

>> FEDERER FANS, THE BEGINNING, DOESN'T REALLY LIKE HIM, BECAUSE THEY JUST THOUGHT, WELL, ROGER IS A BIT MORE EASY, YOU KNOW, HE DOES IT WITH EASE.

THEN NOVAK CAME IN WITH HIS STRONG PERSONALITY AND THAT UNBELIEVABLE GRIT, WANTING TO WIN AT ALL COSTS.

I KNOW THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS CRITICIZED A LOT HEAVILY, WHY WOULDN'T I FIGHT MORE WHEN LOSING?

I DIDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANT, TO HAVE TO GRUNT, TO HAVE TO SWEAT MORE, DO I HAVE TO SHOUT MORE, BE MORE AGGRESSIVE TOWARDS MY OPPONENTS?

WHAT IS IT?

I TRIED, BUT IT WAS ALL AN ACT.

I'M NOT LIKE THAT.

IT'S NOT MY PERSONALITY.

>> I JUST THINK THAT'S SUCH A FASCINATING INSIGHT, JOE, REALLY TRICKY TO MAKE THAT BALANCE.

>> YEAH, I CREDIT ASIF FOR FIGURING OUT HOW TO MAKE THE ARCHIVE GO DEEPER THAN THE SURFACE THAT I SCRATCHED, AND THAT WAS ASIF'S JOB.

>> YEAH, I JUST MEAN THAT THE FACT THAT HE HAD TO DEAL WITH HIS PUBLIC PERSONA, WAS HE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, SCREAM AND SHOUT AND DO A TANTRUM, BUT HE DIDN'T.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU EVER DISCUSSED ANYTHING LIKE THAT WITH HIM IN THE 73 QUESTIONS.

>> OH, NO, NO.

DEFINITELY NOT THAT.

I THINK THE THING THAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT 73 QUESTIONS IS THAT YOU SEE HIM ENGAGING WITH THE BALL KIDS AND SPENDING TIME TO TALK TO THEM.

YOU SEE HIM ANSWERING QUESTIONS ABOUT, WHAT RIVAL DO YOU DREAD PLAYING THE MOST AND ENJOY PLAYING THE MOST, AND HIS ANSWER IS RAFAEL NADAL.

WHAT I THINK IS REALLY MORE INTERESTING IS WHAT YOU DON'T SEE, SPECIFICALLY HIM ABOUT TO PLAY HIS LAST SLAM WHERE HE MADE IT TO THE DJOKOVIC, BUT THIS IS A GUY THAT HAS HIS KNEE INJURIES ON HIS MIND.

THIS IS A GUY SO CONCERNED THAT HIS WIFE AND HIS FAMILY ARE GOING TO WITNESS SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC, GIVEN THIS KNEE SITUATION.

THE ANXIETY IN THAT.

SO, I THINK THE RELIEF AND THE RELEASE THAT EVERYONE FEELS WHEN WATCHINGS THIS, KNOWING THAT HE FINALLY GOT THROUGH THIS RETIREMENT OKAY, HE DID IT SAFELY, HE DID IT WITH CLASS, HE DID IT WITH ELEGANCE, IS SOMETHING THAT'S VERY PALPABLE.

>> I ACTUALLY GOT SO INTERVIEW HIM IN 2015 AT WIMBLEDON, AND I SORT OF DELICATELY BROACHED THE ISSUE OF -- BECAUSE I'D BEEN TOLD BY PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM THAT AS A KID, HE HAD BEEN QUITE EMOTIONAL, HE WASN'T ABOVE THROWING A RACKET AROUND, AND HIS PARENTS HAD TO GET HIM IN HAND AND TELL HIM HOW TO BEHAVE.

THIS IS OUR CLIP.

YOU SEEM TO -- LOSING DOESN'T PUT YOU INTO SOME KIND OF VORTEX OF DESPAIR.

ANDY MURRAY'S MOTHER SAID, WHEN HE LOST TO YOU IN 2012 HERE, HE WAS DESPERATE AND SAD AND WEEPING FOR DAYS.

IT AFFECTS SOME PEOPLE, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO AFFECT YOU.

>> NOT SO MUCH, YOU KNOW?

I AGREE, I THINK I USED TO BE SO EMOTIONAL WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, THAT I LEARNED FROM THAT.

I CRIED TOO OFTEN WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, ALL THE WAY FROM, I'D SAY, 8 TO ABOUT 20.

I WAS EMOTIONAL.

I WOULD CRY, EVEN AS A PRO.

SOMETIMES ON-COURT.

I COULD MANAGE TO GET OFF THE COURT AND THEN BREAK DOWN, WHICH WAS BETTER.

BUT EVENTUALLY I GOT MY ACT TOGETHER, AND NOW, I TAKE IT LIKE A MAN AND FIVE MINUTES LATER, I'M FINE AGAIN, OF COURSE I'M ALSO DISAPPOINTED THAT I HAVE TO WAIT A YEAR UNTIL WIMBLEDON ROLLS AROUND, OR UNTIL THE NEXT OLYMPICS COMES AROUND, TAKES FOUR YEARS, BUT IT GOES WITH THE TERRITORY.

YOU CAN'T WIN THEM ALL, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS GIVE IT ALL YOU HAVE AND ONCE YOU HAVE NO REGRETS, I THINK YOU CAN ACCEPT LOSSES A LITTLE BIT EASIER.

>> I THINK IT'S AMAZING.

I THINK IT'S REALLY AMAZING.

FIRST OF ALL, THAT HE'S A GROWN MAN THAT IS NOT AFRAID TO SHOW HIS EMOTIONS, GIVES A LOT OF BOYS AND MEN PERMISSION TO SHOW THEIR EMOTIONS.

BUT I WONDER -- >> A FILM WITH LOTS OF GROWN MEN CRYING.

>> IT REALLY IS.

ESPECIALLY AT THE END, AT THE FINAL SCENE.

>> HE SETS EVERYONE ELSE OFF, BECAUSE HE'S COMING TO THE END OF HIS CAREER AND ALL OF HIS RIVALS ARE THERE IN THE ROOM AND THEY CAN SEE, IT GOING TO BE ME SOON, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?

ALL OF THEM ARE THINKING, WHAT NEXT?

>> I DIDN'T THINK THAT.

I JUST THOUGHT -- YOU'RE RIGHT, DJOKOVIC HAD TO PULL OUT OF ROLAND-GARRIS GARROS.

>> IT'S ABOUT HIM, BUT IT'S REALLY ABOUT HIM, AND I THINK THE AUDIENCE, ALL OF THIS GO THROUGH THIS MOMENT.

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO NEXT?

THAT'S WHAT I FIND POWERFUL.

IT'S SUBTLE, COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHER FILMS I'VE DONE, BUT IT'S QUITE ROGER.

THAT'S HIM.

CONTAINED.

VERY SWISS, TURNS UP ON TIME, YOU KNOW, REALLY POLITE AND A GENTLEMAN, BUT HE'S GOT ALL THIS EMOTION UNDERNEATH.

AND SEEING THESE ATHLETES BE SO OPEN WITH THEIR EMOTIONS, I'VE NOT SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I DO -- I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU HOW YOU -- HOW IT COMPARED TO -- I KNOW "SENNA" WAS NOT ALIVE WHEN YOU DID IT, BUT THE PERSONAS, HOW DID THEY COMPARE IN THIS KIND OF REGARD?

>> FOR ME, THE CHALLENGE IS TO LOOK AT THE MATERIAL, STUDY THE ARCHIVE, TRY TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, THE PSYCHE, AND THE FILM HAS TO BE TRUE TO THE CHARACTER.

"AMY" IS ABOUT AMY, AND SHE'S VERY DIFFERENT TO ROGER.

I DON'T KNOW IF ROGER'S EVER BEEN TO CAMDEN.

THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

SO, THE FILM HAS TO BE TRUE TO THE PERSON YOU'RE MAKING IT ABOUT.

AND SO, THAT'S THE THING.

RATHER THAN IMPOSE A STYLE ON EACH ONE, IT'S REALLY ABOUT THE FILM IS KIND OF A REFERENCE, OR A VISION, VISUALLY, OF THE PERSON.

AND ROGER'S VERY DIFFERENT.

TENNIS IS VERY DIFFERENT TO FORMULA 1.

TENNIS IS VERY DIFFERENT TO FOOTBALL.

IF YOU ARE FROM SOUTH AMERICA AND LIVE IN NAPLES.

THAT'S NOT THE SAME AT WIMBLEDON.

>> IT'S NOT.

SO, THIS -- I BELIEVE THE NEXT CLIP WE HAVE, I THINK IT'S ABOUT THE LAVER CUP, THE FINAL MEETING OF THEM ALL, AND HIS FINAL GAME.

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS LITTLE CLIP.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ >> JUST, I GUESS SEEING ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS, THAT WAS HARD.

IT WAS SO EMOTIONAL.

THEIR WHOLE CAREER, I'VE BEEN THERE.

>> IT IS, I MEAN, THE AUDIENCE WAS CRYING, EVERYBODY WAS CRYING.

WHEN YOU SEE THAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK -- OBVIOUSLY THEY HAD SUCH A BOND, THEY ALL RESPECTED ROGER, THEY ALL RESPECTED EACH OTHER, THEY WERE SO TOP OF THE GAME.

DO YOU THINK THAT WE -- WE WILL SEE ANOTHER RIVALRY -- WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE LIKE SINNER, CORE LOSE, ARE WE GOING TO SEE A WHOLE NEW AND YOUNGER GENERATION OF MALE PLAYERS?

>> I MEAN, IF YOU ASKED ME THIS QUESTION YEARS AGO, I WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER, BECAUSE I WASN'T A TENNIS FAN.

BUT AFTER THIS EXPERIENCE, I WATCH TENNIS ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO HAVE AN OPINION TO SAY THAT, YES, THE NEW GENERATION IS PLAYING AT A LEVEL, I THINK, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE NEVER WITNESSED BEFORE.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE ROGER, RAFA, OF COURSE, DJOKOVIC, HAVE INSPIRED A WHOLE GENERATION TO KIND OF BREAK THROUGH TO A LEVEL UNSEEN BEFORE.

BUT THE QUESTION, I THINK, ON A LOT OF PEOPLE'S MINDS, AND I WAS REALLY CAPTIVATED BY THE UNANIMITY, EVERYONE AGREES ROGER DID IT MOST BEAUTIFULLY.

>> YES, BECAUSE I THINK EVERYBODY STRUGGLED WITH HOW TO DO IT.

AND THAT'S WHY THIS FILM IS SO INTERESTING IN THAT REGARD.

I WANT TO PLAY MY FINAL CLIP, IT'S ABOUT MIRKA, HIS WIFE, AND SHE'S BASICALLY NEVER GIVEN AN INTERVIEW.

THIS ISN'T HER, ACTUALLY, THIS IS ROGER TALKING ABOUT HER, BUT IT'S VERY INTERESTING.

>> IT'S ONLY AFTERWARDS WHERE I START TO REALIZE HOW MUCH MIRKA HAS BEEN SUFFERING.

I DON'T REMEMBER HER BEGGING ME TO STOP, BUT OF COURSE SHE WAS ASKING THE QUESTION, WHY I WAS STILL DOING THIS?

I KNOW THAT FOR HER, SITTING THERE, SHE REALLY DIDN'T LIKE THAT ANYMORE, BECAUSE SHE COULD FEEL I WAS NOT GOING TO BE THE BEST ANYMORE.

>> WE'VE GOT 30 SECONDS.

HER VALUE?

>> I THINK SHE'S THE PERSON THAT MOVES ME THE MOST IN THE FILM.

WHEN SHE TURNS UP ON SCREEN AND SPEAKS AND IS SO EMOTIONAL, SHE'S THE ONE THAT MAKES ME CRY, PERSONALLY.

TENNIS IS SO UNUSUAL.

NO OTHER SPORT HAS THE WIFE OR THE GIRLFRIEND OR THE FAMILY CONSTANTLY THERE TO CUT AWAY TO.

YOU DON'T HAVE THAT IN FOOTBALL OR RUGRUGBY.

IT'S ALL PART OF THE STORY, THE FAMILY, THE COACH, THE WIFE OR GIRLFRIEND.

>> AND THAT WAS A GREAT -- >> OR HUSBAND.

>> THEY MET AT THE -- AT THE AUSTRALIAN OLYMPICS, SHE WAS A TENNIS PLAYER.

INJURY FORCED HER TO RETIRE EARLY AND SHE SUPPORTED HIM FOREVER.

>> INCREDIBLE WOMAN.

>> YEAH.

AND IT'S A REALLY, REALLY GOOD FILM.

IT COMES OUT ON THE 20th, NEXT WEEK.

WONDERFUL.

JOE, ASICH, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> NOW, AS THE U.S. NOVEMBER ELECTION DRAWS CLOSER, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE TREADING A FINE LINE BETWEEN APPEALING TO THEIR LOYAL BASE AND UNDECIDED VOTERS.

FOR DEMOCRATS, BLACK VOTERS HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN A BASTION OF SUPPORT, BUT RECENT DATA WARNS AGAINST TAKING THEM FOR GRANTED.

A POLL SHOWED ABOUT HALF WOULD REPLACE BOTH CANDIDATES, HINTING AT THEIR GROWING DISAFFECTION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH LEAH RIGUEUR FOR MORE.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, THERE HAVE BEEN A SLEW OF HEADLINES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS, BLACK VOTERS, AND THEIR SORT OF AMBIVALENT FEELINGS ABOUT THE CANDIDATES.

SO, WHY DON'T WE JUST -- BEFORE WE DIG INTO THE DATA, WHY DON'T WE JUST KIND OF JUST DRILL DOWN AND SAY, WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THEMES TO BE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT'S JUST NOISE?

>> SO, I THINK SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ARE THE LEVELS OF DISSATISFACTION WITH THE AMERICAN POLITICAL PROCESS.

AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT HOW UNHAPPY THEY ARE WITH THE AMERICAN TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.

AND A LOT OF IT, I THINK, HAS TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, OVERALL TRENDS IN THE LARGER COUNTRY, AND IN THAT RESPECT, AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE JUST LIKE THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS, THEIR ASIAN COUNTERPARTS, OR THEIR LATINO COUNTERPARTS.

THEY DEEPLY CARE ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

THEY CARE ABOUT SOCIAL MOBILITY, THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY HAVE SEEN THAT, YOU KNOW, THE POLICIES THAT EITHER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TOUTED, OR IN SOME CASES, THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TOUTED, THAT NONE OF THOSE HAVE ACTUALLY AFFECTED THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE.

SO, WHEN YOU SEE AFRICAN AMERICANS, AND WHEN WE INTERVIEW AFRICAN AMERICANS OR POLL THEM ACROSS A WIDE FIELD OF DATA, WE TEND TO SEE OVERWHELMINGLY THAT THEY ARE DEEPLY UNHAPPY WITH THEIR POSITION AND THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

>> IS THIS MORE OF A -- AN ISSUE FOR DEMOCRATS WRIT LARGE THAN IT IS FOR REPUBLICANS?

BECAUSE WE KEEP SEEING HOW THERE ARE REPUBLICANS WHO, YOU KNOW, AREN'T IN LOVE WITH THEIR CHOICE, EITHER.

I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU, ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS DISSATISFIED BECAUSE OF THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE AS BLACK PEOPLE, OR ARE THEY DISSATISFIED BECAUSE DEMOCRATS OVERALL ARE SATISFIED AND BECAUSE THEY TEND TO BE DEMOCRATS?

>> SO, IT'S ALL OF THE ABOVE.

I WILL TELL YOU THIS IS A LARGER PROBLEM FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAN IT IS FOR THE REPUBLIC PARTY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL PRESIDENTIAL CYCLES IS THAT REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES CAN WIN WITHOUT A MAJORITY OR EVEN A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK VOTE.

BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT DEMOCRATS CAN WIN WITH THE HELP OF THIS VERY LARGE AND LOYAL BLACK BASE OF VOTERS.

AND SO, THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE ENTHUSIASM PROBLEM.

DEMOCRATS NEED BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

REPUBLICANS ONLY NEED A SMALL SLIVER OF BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN ELECTIONS.

AND THIS IS WHY I SAY THAT, IN MANY WAYS, IT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE FOR DEMOCRATS IN THIS RESPECT.

REPUBLICANS ONLY NEED A LOW TURNOUT FROM BLACK VOTERS IN ORDER TO WIN ELECTIONS, AS OF THE LAST REALLY 50 SOME ODD YEARS.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE FACING IS, WE HAVE THIS INCREDIBLY LOYAL BASE, A BLOC OF VOTERS FOR WHOM NO OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE UNITED STATES FUNCTIONS THIS WAY.

BUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SO LOYAL AND THEY VOTE AS A BLOC IN OVERWHELMING NUMBERS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND HAVE DONE SO SINCE REALLY 1964, WE BEGIN TO SEE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE TAKING BLACK VOTERS FOR GRANTED, OR TREATED IN VERY SUPERFICIAL WAYS.

BLACK VOTERS HAVE EXPRESSED OVER THE YEARS BOTH ANGER, DISENCHANTMENT, DISILLUSIONMENT, WITH THE FEELING THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEING APPRECIATED IN THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY APPRECIATES ITS WHITE BASE.

SO, IT IS A QUESTION OF LOYALTY, BUT IT'S ALSO A QUESTION OF, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR US LATELY?

>> ACCORDING TO A SURVEY FROM GEN FORWARD AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, THIS SURVEY FOUND THAT 17% OF BLACK VOTERS WOULD VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP IF THE ELECTIONS WERE HELD TODAY.

TODAY BEING, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE POLL WAS TAKEN.

FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU THINK THAT'S A VALID NUMBER, AND SECONDLY, DO YOU THINK OF IT?

>> I THINK THE NUMBER IS PROBABLY OFF A LITTLE BIT.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE IS THE NUMBER THAT PEOPLE GIVE IN THESE KIND OF POLLING DATA TENDS TO BE OFFSET BY AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHEN PEOPLE GO INTO THE BALLOT BOX, THEY EITHER VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE OR THEY DON'T VOTE AT ALL.

SO, IT MANIFESTS ITSELF AS A NONVOTE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT ANYTHING WITHIN THE RANGE OF ROUGHLY 18% IS ACTUALLY WITHIN THE NORM OF THE LAST 50 SOME ODD YEARS.

WE TEND NOT TO SEE IT AS THE NORM, BECAUSE OF THE OBAMA ERA.

THE OBAMA ERA, THOSE NUMBERS ARE JUST ASTRONOMICAL, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING LEVEL OF BLACK SUPPORT FOR THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT.

BUT WHAT WE SEE IN 2016 IS A RETURN TO THE AVERAGE.

SO, I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE SEE THE TRUMP NUMBERS, WHETHER THEY WERE IN 2016, 2020, OR 2024, WE ARE SEEING A RETURN TO HOME.

THAT ESSENTIALLY BLACK PEOPLE WHO VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE COMING HOME.

THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT WHEN BLACK PEOPLE PERCEIVE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES, REALLY ONE OF THREE THINGS HAPPENS.

EITHER THEY VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE, THEY DON'T VOTE ALTOGETHER, OR IN VERY SMALL NUMBERS, WITHIN THE MEAN OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THE GEN FORWARD, I THINK, POMMING DATA, THEY WILL VOTE FOR AND SUPPORT REPUBLICANS.

SO, I THINK THAT TELLS US SOMETHING ABOUT HOW BLACK VOTERS PERCEIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AT LEAST 17% TO 20%.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT YOUNGER BLACK VOTERS ARE INCREASINGLY EXPRESSING DISSATISFACTION WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

MANY OF THEM HAVE INDICATED THEY VIEW PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE ADMINISTRATION, THEY VIEW IT AS EITHER INDIFFERENT OR OUTWARDLY HOSTILE -- >> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

WHY?

A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS WILL EXPRESS SURPRISE AND DISMAY, THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, WHAT ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS, THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN/SOUTH ASIAN PERSON TO HOLD THAT SEAT, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE EFFORTS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE ON COLLEGE LOANS, TO CANCEL THAT DEBT, OR -- YOU KNOW, THEY LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THAT, AND THEY GO, WHAT'S THE STORY?

SO, YOU -- WHAT IS THAT?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS -- THE PUSH BACKS I ALWAYS GET, INCLUDING FROM DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS OR EVEN THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS, WHY ARE WE SO CONCERNED?

THE NUMBER IS STILL, LIKE, 80% OF AFRICAN AMERICANS OR BLACK VOTERS SUPPORT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

AND YES, THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT THERE IS A SLOW TRICKLE OF BLACK VOTERS WHO ARE EXPRESSING DISSATISFACTION AND ALSO ARTICULATING A KIND OF ARGUMENT ABOUT THE FAILURES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT I WOULD PUT FORWARD IS THAT WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY SEEING A ROBUST EFFORT ON THE PART OF REPUBLICANS.

THEY'RE NOT WINNING BLACK VOTERS OVER BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICIES OR PROCEDURES OR PROGRAMS.

BUT INSTEAD, BECAUSE OF THE FAILURES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO CONNECT ORGANICALLY AND AUTHENTICALLY TO A VERY, I THINK, TENSE SECTION, CROSS SECTION, OF BLACK VOTERS.

AND IN THAT CASE, ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW IS THAT THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS COMPLETELY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY GET DOWN ORGANICALLY AND UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS, THE DESIRES, AND THE FRUSTRATIONS OF BLACK VOTERS IN MANY WAYS.

>> WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

THE OBAMA APPROACH, I WOULD MAYBE -- YOU COULD ARGUE THE OBAMA/BIDEN APPROACH, HAS BEEN TO ACT ON POLICY WITHOUT LABELLING IT AS BEING FOR THE BENEFIT OF THESE GROUPS, RIGHT?

THEIR APPROACH HAS BEEN, WE'RE GOING TO WORK ON POLICY, AND WE'RE GOING TO PRESENT THIS POLICY AS BENEFICIAL TO THE COUNTRY AT LARGE, AND, YOU KNOW, READ BETWEEN THE LINES, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CANCEL STUDENT DEBT, WHO HAS THE MOST STUDENT DEBT?

IT'S CERTAIN GROUPS.

IF YOU MAKE HEALTH CARE MORE WIDELY AVAILABLE, READ BETWEEN THE LINES, WHO DOES IT BENEFIT?

IS IT REALLY THAT THE MESSAGING NEEDS TO BE, THIS IS FOR YOU?

OR ARE THERE OTHER POLICIES THAT THE DEMOCRATS AREN'T PURSUING THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS IDENTIFY AND SAY, YOU'RE FAILING US?

>> ALL OF THE ABOVE.

AND I WOULD THINK BACK TO THE 2020 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES, WHERE THERE WAS A REAL CONVERSATION, AN ACTUAL REAL CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE CANDIDATES, THE FRONT-RUNNER CANDIDATES, BOTH IN THE 2020 AND 2016 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES, ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE TO HAVE POLICIES THAT ARE AIMED SPECIFICALLY AT AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES?

AND, YOU KNOW, IN 2020, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, I WILL APPOINT A BLACK WOMAN TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AND HE DID IT.

AND IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL THINGS THAT HE COULD DO, EVEN THOUGH THE NAMING OF A BLACK WOMAN AND SAYING, I WANT TO PUT A BLACK WOMAN ON THE SUPREME COURT, IS SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE ALIENATED, YOU KNOW, RACIST PEOPLE THAT MAYBE THE DEMOCRATS NEEDED TO WIN.

BUT YET, IT PAID OFF HEAVILY.

AND IT WAS REWARDING, ESSENTIALLY, THE MOST LOYAL CONSTITUENCY OF HIS BASE.

>> WHAT ELSE SHOULD THE ADMINISTRATION BE DOING THAT THEY'RE NOT?

>> VOTING RIGHTS.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

AND SOME KIND OF LARGE ECONOMIC INCENTIVE.

AND I DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE WAYS IN WHICH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS ACTUALLY DONE THOSE THINGS THROUGH COLOR BLIND POLICY.

THEY HAVE DONE THAT.

THE MESSAGING AROUND IT, THOUGH, IS DEEPLY IMPORTANT.

PARTICULARLY IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE CONVEYING TO AUDIENCES WHO FEEL LEFT BEHIND.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID VERY WELL IS THAT THEY SPOKE EXPLICITLY TO THEIR CORE BASE.

THE PEOPLE THAT THEY NEEDED TO WIN.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE, I THINK, WERE TAKEN ABACK BY THAT, BUT ACTUALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, IT WAS AN IMPORTANT STRATEGY.

YOU NEED PEOPLE ENTHUSIASTIC AROUND THESE THINGS.

BUT YOU ALSO NEED POLICY WINS.

VERY BIG POLICY WINS.

AND SO, I THINK FOR MANY AUDIENCES, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN POINT AND SAY, WELL, I'M BEING GRID LOCKED AND ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE, I'M BEING BLOCKED OUT OF CONGRESS, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO DO THESE THINGS.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT AUDIENCES SEE.

THEY SEE THEMSELVES BEING LEFT BEHIND.

>> YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, POLICY, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SORT OF MESSAGING, BUT DO YOU THINK THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS, AS WELL, BEHIND THE DISAFFECTION OF BLACK VOTERS?

>> THE NUMBER ONE IS POLICY AND LIVED EXPERIENCE.

BUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WE'VE SEEN REALLY JUST EXPLODE OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS IS THAT THERE'S A CONCERTED CYBER EFFORT, INTERNATIONAL CYBER EFFORT, THAT IS EXPLICITLY AIMED AT BLACK VOTERS.

AND BLACK PEOPLE, MORE GENERALLY.

IT POPS UP ACROSS THESE VARIOUS KIND OF TECHNOLOGICAL PLATFORMS, INCLUDING INSTAGRAM, FACEBOOK, TWITTER, NOW KNOWN AS X, TIKTOK.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REMARKABLE ABOUT THESE, I THINK, CONCERTED EFFORTS, IS THAT THEY ARE BUILT ON KERNELS OF TRUTH AND FRUSTRATION THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS AND BLACK VOTERS HAVE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THESE THINGS ARE BLOWN UP.

INTO MISINFORMATION, INTO PEOPLE IN DIGITAL BLACK FACE, RIGHT?

THESE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THAT TAKE ON A LIFE OF THEIR OWN.

AND THEN, THE OTHER THING THAT WE KNOW IS THAT IT IS VERY HARD, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, TO TRACK HOW THESE THINGS ARE SHOWING UP.

>> I KNOW DURING THE LAST ELECTION, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF ACCOUNTS THAT WERE VERY MUCH A PRODUCT OF RUSSIAN TROLL FARMS WHO WERE BASICALLY STUDYING SORT OF POINTS OF DIVISION IN THE AMERICAN SOCIETY, AND ACTIVELY KIND OF POKING AT THEM.

>> EXACTLY.

AND SO, I THINK THE BEST KIND OF -- THE BEST KIND OF MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION IS THE KIND THAT STARTS FROM A KERNEL OF TRUTH.

BECAUSE IT MAKES IT FAR MORE BELIEVABLE, OR A KERNEL OF FRUSTRATION.

SO, IF YOU KNOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, BLACK MEN FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND ABOUT THE DISPROPROEGS GNAT WAY IN WHICH THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS TREATED BLACK PEOPLE, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S SOME WAY IN WHICH JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WAS INVOLVED IN THE PASSAGE OF, SAY, THE CRIME BILL IN THE 1990s, OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE, IT IS VERY EASY TO TAKE THAT AND TO BLOW IT UP INTO SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

AND TO KEEP HITTING PEOPLE AND HAMMERING PEOPLE ON THIS ISSUE.

>> YOU MENTIONED BLACK MEN.

IS THERE A WAY IN WHICH THE DISAFFECTION OR -- LET'S JUST SAY ATTITUDES WRIT LARGE, ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AMONG BLACK VOTERS, DOES IT CUT DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ARE?

I GUESS WHAT I'M WONDERING, DOES THIS CUT DIFFERENTLY BASED ON GENDER?

>> THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A GENDER COMPONENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO CLARIFY THIS FIRST BY SUGGESTING, THE OVERWHELMING, YOU KNOW, MAJORITY OF BLACK VOTERS MALE OR FEMALE SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND SUPPORT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, BLACK PEOPLE THAT VOTE REPUBLICAN IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, THEY TEND TO BE OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK MEN.

AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF REASONS FOR THIS.

I THINK ONE OF THEM IS THIS IDEA OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND KIND OF FRUSTRATION, RIGHT, THE SENSE OF AN INDIVIDUALISM AND FRUSTRATION WITH THESE LARGER POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.

SO, THERE IS, YOU KNOW, TAKE THE GEORGE FLOYD MOMENT.

MANY BLACK MEN LOOKED AT THAT AND SAID, THIS IS A FAILURE OF AMERICAN POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST A FAILURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THAT'S NOT HOW BLACK MEN VIEWED THAT.

THEY VIEWED IT AS OVERALL, AN OVERARCHING FRUSTRATION WITH THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

POLICING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

AND THAT YOU SEE IT AS A BIPARTISAN FAILURE.

BUT WHAT THAT ALLOWS THEM TO DO, GIVEN THAT THEIR SENSE OF INDIVIDUALISM IS MUCH HIGHER THAN BLACK WOMEN, IS TO THINK, HOW CAN I THEN VOTE IN A WAY THAT BEST BENEFITS MYSELF?

BLACK WOMEN HAVE A MUCH, MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME DIVORCING THEMSELVES FROM THIS IDEA OF THE COLLECTIVE BEST INTEREST OF THE RACE.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE REALLY BEGIN TO SEE THESE DIFFERENCES.

IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN CROSS SECTION WITHIN THE BLACK MALE POPULATION THAT IS ATTRACTED, I THINK, TO DONALD TRUMP'S SENSE OF ESSENTIALLY MA CHEESE MOW AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

THEY LIKE THAT HE IS ESSENTIALLY A STRONG MAN.

HE IS SEEN AS STRONG.

THEY DON'T SEE HIM AS WEAK.

SO, I THINK THERE'S SIGNIFICANT GENDER DIFFERENCES THAT ACTUALLY END UP PLAYING OUT IN REALLY IMPORTANT POLITICAL WAYS.

>> FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, CANDIDATE TRUMP, HAS SAID THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO ANNOUNCE HIS VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE UNTIL THE CONVENTION.

THERE SEEM TO BE TWO AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN IN THE RUNNING FOR THAT SLOT.

TIM SCOTT AND BYRON DONALDS.

DO YOU THINK THAT MATTERS?

>> IT MATTERS, BUT NOT FOR BLACK AUDIENCES.

IT MATTERS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES.

>> INTERESTING.

>> AND LET ME EXPLAIN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE OVER AND OVER WITH BLACK AUDIENCES IS THAT THERE IS A PARTICULAR KIND OF CANDIDATE, BLACK CANDIDATE, THAT HAS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF APPEAL.

THINK BARACK OBAMA, RIGHT?

THEY HAVE TO BE AUTHENTICALLY AND ORGANICALLY CONNECTED TO BLACK COMMUNITIES.

THEY HAVE TO SEEM INVESTED IN ESSENTIALLY THE UPLIFT, OR THE BETTERMENT OF BLACK COMMUNITIES.

NEITHER ONE, AND I WOULD PARTICULARLY POINT TO THE CONGRESSMAN'S REMARKS THE OTHER DAY, WHERE HE ROE MANTIZED JIM CROW.

I WOULD POINT TO THE FACT THAT BOTH OF THEM HAVE WHITE SPOUSES.

THAT MATTERS TO BLACK VOTERS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW, FROM STUDIES ABOUT BLACK REPUBLICANS AND BLACK AUDIENCES, IS THAT BLACK AUDIENCES ACTUALLY TREAT BLACK REPUBLICANS MORE HARSHLY THAN THEY DO WHITE REPUBLICANS THAT HOLD THE EXACT SAME VIEWS.

WHY?

BECAUSE THEY VIEW THOSE BLACK REPUBLICANS AS TRAITORS, AS BETRAYING THE BEST INTEREST OF THE BLACK COMMUNITIES.

NOW, WHERE IT MATTERS, THOUGH, IS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES.

PARTICULARLY WHITE AUDIENCES THAT ARE DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH DONALD TRUMP'S BRAND OF BIGOTRY, XENOPHOBIA, AND RACISM.

TIM SCOTT IS A REASSURANCE, WELL, IF TIM SCOTT SUPPORTS DONALD TRUMP, THEN HE CAN'T BE THAT BAD, CORRECT?

IT PROVIDES A KIND OF SHIELD FOR ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM, OF BIGOTRY AND XENOPHOBIA.

AND I DO THINK POLITICALLY, FROM A POLITICAL CALCULATION POINT OF VIEW, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, OR, THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN, IS -- HAS SEEMED TO HAVE REALLY STEPPED UP ITS OUTREACH, I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF EVENTS, AS WE'RE SPEAKING NOW, THERE'S A JUNETEENTH CELEBRATION.

I'M WONDERING IF THINGS LIKE THAT MATTER?

>> THEY DO MATTER.

BUT I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ACTUALLY HAS A MUCH HARDER BATTLE RIGHT NOW THAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN TERMS OF ITS RELATIONSHIP TO BLACK VOTERS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THEY REALLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO AND REALLY INVEST MONEY INTO ARE THESE ORGANIC LISTENING CONVERSATIONS.

SIT DOWN WITH BLACK VOTERS AND SAY, TELL US WHAT YOU WANT.

AND THEN LISTEN, RATHER THAN LECTURE.

IT'S THE SAME ADVICE THAT I GAVE IN MY BOOK TO REPUBLICANS, IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING OVER BLACK VOTERS, SIT DOWN AND LISTEN.

DON'T START SIX MONTHS BEFORE AN ELECTION.

AND I THINK IT'S -- IT'S A TALL CHARGE, BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE, AND CERTAINLY, IF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS WILLING TO INVEST MONEY AND TIME AND EFFORT, THEY CAN WIN BACK THOSE VOTERS WHO SEEM DISAFFECTED AND DISENCHANTED WITH THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TOO LATE.

>> PROFESSOR LEAH RIGUEUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AND SHARING THESE INSIGHTS WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, TOOTHBRUSHES, BOTTLE CAPS, AND BEACH TOYS, TRASH THAT HAS SUNK TO THE BOTTOM OF OUR OCEANS AND POLLUTED OUR BEACHES, HAS RESURFACED AS ART IN THIS NEW YORK AQUARIUM EXHIBIT CALLED "WASHED ASHORE."

35 LARGER THAN LIFE SCULPTURES TRY TO PROVOKE VIEWERS INTO THINKING ABOUT HOW PLASTIC IS THREATENING THE HEALTH OF OUR PLANET.

AS RISING SEA LEVELS CONTINUE TO JEOPARDIZE COASTAL CITIES AND TEMPERATURES BREAKING ALARMING RECORDS, PROTECTING OUR OCEANS AND MARINE WILDLIFE HAS BECOME EVER MORE CRUCIAL.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.