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♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> Translator: AFTER THE INTENSE PHASE IS FINISHED, WE WILL HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO MOVE PART OF THE FORCES NORTH.
>> AS ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER SIGNALS A NEW WAR ON THE NORTHERN BORDER, WHAT COULD COME NEXT AND WHEN WILL IT ALL END?
I ASK AMI AYALON, THE FORMER HEAD OF SHIN BET, ISRAEL'S INTERNAL SECURITY AGENCY.
AND -- THE CHILDREN SUFERING INSIDE GAZA.
I SPEAK TO ARWA DAMON, THE FORMER WAR REPORTER WHO NOW HEADS UP THE CHARITY INARA.
>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WHY ARE WE WORKING LIKE THIS IF IT'S NOT GOING TO GIVE US THE HAPPINESS AND THE SUPPORT AND THE STABILITY THAT WE DESERVE?
>> THE MYTH OF MAKING IT.
THE FORMER HEAD OF "TEEN VOGUE" TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY BENEATH THE GLAMOUR SHE WAS MISERABLE LEADING ONE OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST FASHION MAGAZINES.
♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
IN HIS FIRST INTERVIEW WITH THE ISRAELI MEDIA SINCE OCTOBER 7th, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU ANNOUNCED A NEW PHASE OF THE WAR.
>> Translator: AFTER THE INTENSE PHASE IS FINISHED, WE WILL HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO MOVE PART OF THE FORCES NORTH, AND WE WILL DO THIS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES, AND SECONDLY, TO BRING OUR EVACUATED RESIDENTS HOME.
IF WE CAN, WE WILL DO THIS DIPLOMATICALLY.
IF NOT, WE WILL DO IT ANOTHER WAY.
>> AND THAT HAS SPARKED FEARS OF A FULL-BLOWN WAR WITH HEZBOLLAH, WHICH THE U.S. HAS WARNED COULD BE DISASTROUS.
U.S. SOURCES ARE EVEN REPORTEDLY CONCERNED THAT ISRAEL'S MUCH VAUNTED AARON DOME DEFENSE SYSTEM COULD BE OVERWHELMED.
NETANYAHU ALSO MADE COMMENTS THAT APPEARED TO BE A DEATH KNELL FOR ANY GAZA PEACE DEAL, WHICH IS BACKED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND WHICH WOULD HAVE SEEN ALL REMAINING ISRAELI HOSTAGES RELEASED AND A LASTING CEASE-FIRE THERE.
INSTEAD, NETANYAHU SAID HE WAS INTERESTED IN A PARTIAL DEAL, WITH ONLY SOME HOSTAGES RELEASED.
THE HOSTAGE FAMILY FORUM CONDEMNED THAT AS VIOLATING ISRAEL'S MORAL DUTY TO THEM.
ONE OF NETANYAHU'S FIERCEST CRITICS IS AMI AYALON, THE FORMER HEAD OF ISRAEL'S SHIN BET.
HE DISAGREES WITH NETANYAHU'S WAR STRATEGY.
AND I ASKED HIM WHAT HOPES ISRAEL COULD HAVE NOW OF ENDING THIS WAR, AND GETTING ALL THEIR ABDUCTED FAMILY MEMBERS BACK.
AMI AYALON, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
>> SO, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN SAYING TO ISRAELI MEDIA ABOUT HIS VIEW OF A PARTIAL END TO THIS?
HE SAID HE'S READY FOR A PARTIAL DEAL WITH HAMAS, FOR SOME OF THE HOSTAGES.
NOW, AS FAR AS I WAS AWARE, THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL'S FIRST GOAL IS TO GET ALL OF THE HOSTAGES BACK.
THE SO-CALLED ISRAELI PLAN THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION STATED WAS PRECISELY FOR THAT, OR FOR ALL.
SOME PEOPLE SAY, LIKE THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES FORUM, THEY CONDEMN IT.
THEY SAY HE'S JUST WALKED BACK FROM EVERYTHING.
WHAT'S A PARTIAL DEAL FOR THE PARTIAL RELEASE OF HOSTAGES?
>> IT'S THE ONLY WAY FOR HIM TO SURVIVE IN POWER.
THAT'S IT.
IT'S THE ONLY WAY FOR HIM TO MAKE SURE THAT THE WAR WILL NOT COME TO AN END.
AND THIS IS WHAT HE'S DOING.
AND I THINK THAT HE REALLY BELIEVES THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, BUT WE DO UNDERSTAND, MOST OF THE ISRAELIS.
AND TODAY, OUR PRIME MINISTER DOES NOT REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.
IN CENT POLL, I HAVE HERE THE FIGURES.
76% OF THE ISRAELIS BELIEVE THAT HE SHOULD RESIGN IMMEDIATELY.
65% DEMAND ELECTIONS TODAY.
AND 74%, 75% BELIEVES THAT THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS WAR IS BY A POLITICAL ACHIEVEMENT THAT WILL ENABLE US TO BRING BACK ALL THE HOSTAGES.
SECOND, TO END THE WAR AND THIRD, TO CREATE A REGIONAL COALITION THAT WILL -- WILL CREATE A BETTER REALITY AND MORE SAFETY TO ISRAEL.
>> I'M REALLY SURPRISED BY WHAT YOU SAID, IN THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO END THE WAR.
>> RIGHT.
>> I MEAN, THAT SOUNDS CRAZY TO ME.
>> WHY?
>> WELL, WHY?
WHY NOT?
ISRAELIS ARE BEING KILLED, PALESTINIANS ARE BEING KILLED, ISRAEL'S LOSING ITS MORAL HIGH GROUND, IT'S BECOMING A PARIAH.
>> WE CALL IT TOXIC LEADERSHIP.
TOXIC LEADERSHIP IS A GREAT CHARISMA OF A PERSON WHO LEAD MANY PEOPLE, BUT HE LEADS THEM TO THE WRONG PLACE.
TO THE END OF ZIONISM.
THIS IS WHAT HE'S DOING.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE FIRST CABINET, THE FIRST CABINET MEETING, WHEN WE WENT TO WAR AFTER THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER AND WE HAD TO GO TO WAR, BECAUSE WE -- IT WAS A WAR OF DEFENSE, BUT THE DECISION OF -- DO NOT DISCUSS THE DAY AFTER.
WHAT IS THE MEANING?
I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING.
IN THIS WAR, WHEN YOU SEND YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR YOUNGSTERS, TO KILL AND MANY OF THEM WILL DIE THERE, WHEN YOU TELL THEM THAT THERE IS NO POLITICAL GOAL FOR THIS WAR, IMMEDIATELY, WHAT HAPPENED?
THE GOAL, THE WAR BECOMES THE END.
AND NOT THE MEAN.
NOW, WHEN THE WAR BECOMES THE END, THE GOAL OF ITSELF, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE TODAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
WE KNOW HOW TO START WARS, THIS GOVERNMENT DO NOT KNOW AND DO NOT WANT TO END THIS WAR.
>> OKAY, I'M GOING TO GET BACK TO GAZA IN A SECOND, BUT NETANYAHU HIMSELF SAID IN THIS SO-CALLED INTERVIEW, CONVERSATION, THAT THEY MIGHT BE PREPARED FOR ANOTHER WAR, THAT THE -- THE REAL SO-CALLED KINETIC COMBAT PHASE COULD BE COMING TO AN END, BUT THEY WILL MOVE TO THE NORTH, THAT MEANS HEZBOLLAH.
ARE YOU PREPARED?
DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN, A LA 2006?
>> WHETHER I THINK IT'S A REAL SCENARIO -- IF WE DO NOT CHANGE OUR PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IT IS A REAL SCENARIO.
NOT BECAUSE SOMEBODY WANT, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY OPTION.
IF WE BELIEVE ONLY IN POWER, IF WE BELIEVE THAT WAR IS NOT THE LAST OPTION, IS THE FIRST AND ONLY OPTION, THIS IS WHAT WE SHALL SEE.
OUR SECURITY SHOULD BE BASED ON TWO PILLARS.
YES, WE SHALL ALWAYS HAVE TO MAINTAIN AND TO PRESERVE A HUGE MILITARY POWER, BUT IT WILL NOT -- IT WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH, UNLESS WE UNDERSTAND DIPLOMACY, UNLESS WE CAN SPEAK IN TWO LANGUAGES, WE SHALL NOT BE SECURE AND WE SHALL LOSE OUR IDENTITY.
>> AND WHY HAS IT TAKEN EIGHT MONTHS FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN SAYING IT, BECAUSE YOU'RE OUT OF, YOU KNOW, GOVERNING SHIN BET, ET CETERA, RIGHT NOW.
>> WELL, BECAUSE I AM IN THE MINORITY OF MY PEOPLE.
>> OKAY, BUT IT'S SUDDENLY BECOMING OUT THERE, LIKE, THE HEAD -- THE HEAD OF -- OF THE IDF HAS CLEARLY EMPOWERED HIS SPOKESMAN, WHO SAID LAST YEAR THAT IT'S JUST THROWING SAND INTO THE EYES OF THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, SAYING THAT YOU CAN DEFEAT HAMAS.
MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO SAY WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME NOW, THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A DAY AFTER PLAN.
>> YES.
I -- I DON'T BLAME, BUT I THINK THAT -- I EXPECTED MORE FROM OUR GENERALS.
I STILL REMEMBER DURING THE FIRSTINTIFADA, WHEN WE WERE GIVEN AN ORDER, INSTRUCTED US TO BREAK THEIR BONES AND SOME COMMANDERS DID IT.
LITERALLY.
AND THE CHIEF OF GENERAL STAFF TOLD PUBLICLY, MR. DEFENSE MINISTER, THIS IS NOT A MILITARY PHENOMENA.
THIS IS A SOCIAL, POLITICAL, VIOLENT PHENOMENA.
AND I EXPECTED OUR GENERALS TO SAY IT AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE.
THE MOMENT THAT THE CABINET ACCEPTED THIS DECISION, NOT TO DISCUSS THE DAY AFTER, IT WAS CLEAR THAT THIS IS A NEVER-ENDING WAR.
AND THEY SHOULD DO IT MUCH EARLIER.
>> DO YOU THINK, BECAUSE YOU SAW THE JUSTIFIED HORROR THAT WAS UNLEASHED OVER THE WEEKEND, WHEN PA PICTURE OF A WOUNDED MRIN TAN TIED TO THE HOOD OF ONE OF YOUR MILITARY VEHICLES WAS DRIVEN OUT OF THE JENIN AREA, AND THE ISRAELI MILITARY THEN SHORTLY THEREAFTER SAID THOSE FORCES VIOLATED ORDERS AND STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE.
NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE FAITH IN AN INVESTIGATION, BECAUSE RARELY THOSE INVESTIGATIONS HAPPEN.
BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING?
I MEAN, ARE YOU SAYING THAT THIS WAR WITHOUT ANY POLITICAL END IS ALSO CAUSING THIS KIND OF STUFF, INCLUDING THE SELFIES OF YOUR FORCES INSIDE GAZA, TAKING PICTURES WITH THE RUBBLE, WITH THIS, WITH THAT, I MEAN, IT'S JUST NOT VERY NICE.
AT ALL.
>> NO, IT'S HORRIBLE.
>> YOU FEEL THEY'RE LOSING THEIR MORALITY, THEIR HUMANITY.
>> NOT THEY.
WE ARE LOSING.
WE ARE LOSING OUR IDENTITY AS PEOPLE, AS JEWS, AND AS HUMAN BEINGS.
>> DID YOU EVER THINK YOU WOULD SAY THAT?
YOU'RE THE FORMER HEAD OF SHIN BET.
>> YES.
>> DID YOU EVER THINK YOU'D GET TO A POINT -- >> YES, I SAID IT MANY TIMES, AND I SAID IT IN THE SHIN BET, WHEN WE TRIED TO THINK OF OUR CODE OF ETHICS.
PEOPLE DO NOT THINK, WHEN YOU SEND US TO WAR, YOU DO NOT SEND US TO NEGOTIATE.
YOU SEND US TO KILL.
NOW, WE ARE BORN WITH AN IDEA OF, YOU SHALL NOT KILL.
AND NOW, YOU TELL ME, OKAY, YOU GO TO WAR, KILL ALL THE ENEMIES.
NOW, THE IDEA IS, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL.
NOW WITH THE TIME, IT BECOMES NATURE.
WE DO NOT ASK WHY.
THE ONLY QUESTIONS THAT WE ASK WHEN WE GO TO WAR IS, HOW TO KILL.
WHETHER WE SHOULD USE A KNIFE OR A GUN OR A MISSILE.
BUT IT'S BECOME A SECOND NATURE, AND THIS IS A DANGER IN EVERY WAR.
AND WE -- WE SAW IT, YOU KNOW, DURING ALL HISTORY, WHAT AMERICANS DID IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, WHAT WE DID IN THE PAST, UNLESS WE UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY WAR MUST END.
THIS IS WHAT WE SHALL SEE.
WE SHALL LOSE OUR IDENTITY AS A DEMOCRATIC HUMAN BEINGS AND WE SHALL CREATE A REALITY OF NEVER-ENDING WAR.
>> SO, GIVEN THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING BIG BREAKING OUT AGAINST LEBANON, I MEAN, LOOK, THIS IS WHAT ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED MILITARY ANALYSTS IN ISRAEL SAYS, THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH SUSPECTS THAT ISRAEL IS HEADED FOR A GENERAL WAR, AND IS PREPARING HIS ORGANIZATION FOR THAT POSSIBILITY.
YOU THINK THAT'S RIGHT?
>> YES.
IT'S THE ONLY RATIONAL DECISION -- >> AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?
>> WE SHALL HAVE WAR.
>> AND THEN?
>> WE SHALL HAVE WAR.
>> AND AFTER THAT?
>> AND WE SHALL HAVE MORE WAR.
AND WE SHALL STOP AND LATER WE SHALL HAVE MORE WAR.
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, THERE ARE TWO BLIND SPOTS FOR US ISRAELIS, UNTIL TODAY, BY THE WAY.
WHAT SHOULD WE LEARN AFTER THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER?
WHICH WAS PROBABLY THE MOST HORRIBLE MOMENT IN OUR HISTORY.
WE SHOULD LEARN, FIRST OF ALL, THAT WE SHALL NOT HAVE SECURITY AS LONG AS WE SHALL NOT END OCCUPATION.
THIS IS WHAT HAMAS TOLD US.
AND WE SHALL NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY AS LONG AS WE SHALL NOT END THE OCCUPATION.
NOW, WE REFUSE TO SEE IT.
WE SEE IT TODAY, IF I READ THE POLLS, MORE THAN WE SAW IT, AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY.
OUR GOVERNMENT DO NOT SEE.
YOU HAVE GALLANT, PROBABLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO SAY IT, BECAUSE HIS BASE, HE HAS TO BE ELECTED.
SO, THE POLITICAL POWER TODAY IS NOT IN THE HAND OF THE POLITICAL LEADERS.
THE POLITICAL POWER IS SOMEWHERE IN THE STREET.
AND WE, PEOPLE IN THE STREET, WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT.
WE UNDERSTAND IT MORE AND MORE, AND THIS IS WHY THE DEMONSTRATIONS ARE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, BUT THIS IS WHY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS A ROLE.
BECAUSE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS TO UNDERSTAND, YES, WE HAVE TO SAVE OURSELVES FROM OUR OURSELVES.
BUT IT IS NOT A CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS ANYMORE.
IT IS -- REGIONAL CONFLICT THAT WE CREATE A HUGE IMPACT ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
>> DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE ADMINISTRATION AND ISRAEL'S FRIENDS ARE SAVING THE ISRAELI POLITICAL LEADERS FROM THEMSELVES OR NOT?
>> I THINK THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO THEIR BEST, THE WAY I UNDERSTAND THE AMERICAN LEADERS AND PRESIDENT, HE HAS TO BE ELECTED.
AND HE'S BLAMED FROM BOTH SIDES.
SO, I'M NOT HERE TO GIVE HIM ANY -- I THINK THAT HE'S THE ONLY LEADER WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT WE CAN CREATE A DIFFERENT AND A BETTER REALITY, AND HE'S DOING ALL THAT HE CAN IN ORDER TO HELP US TO SAVE OURSELVES.
>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING?
BECAUSE I WAS STRUCK WITH WHAT YOU SAID.
THIS IS WHAT HAMAS TOLD US.
YOU SAID THE BUSINESS ABOUT ENDING THE OCCUPATION, ET CETERA.
I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH, I'M SURE SOMEBODY YOU KNOW VERY WELL, THE DOCTOR WHO SAVED YAHYA SINWAR, THEN BECAME AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER.
HE CLAIMED THAT ISRAEL, ALL OF YOU, MOSSAD, SHIN BET, GOVERNMENT, JUST DIDN'T LISTEN WHEN PEOPLE LIKE HIM WHO WERE TALKING TO HAMAS EVERY SINGLE DAY WERE SAYING, THIS IS WHAT THEY THINK, THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY.
HE SAID, HAMAS LEARNED A LOT ABOUT ISRAEL, BUT NOT VICE VERSA.
I'M JUST GOING TO PLAY WHAT HE TOLD ME ON THIS REGARD.
>> OKAY.
>> Translator: UNFORTUNATELY, THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP DID NOT STUDY HAMAS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE AMONG US, EVEN IN THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, DID NOT KNOW AND LEARN HAMAS WELL ENOUGH.
ALL WE NEEDED TO DO WAS LISTEN TO THEM.
OUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS HAMAS WAS ARROGANT.
WE DISMISSED HAMAS.
AND HAMAS SAID EVERYTHING IT INTENDED TO DO.
BUT WE DIDN'T WANT TO LISTEN.
>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
>> YES, OF COURSE.
I DON'T AGREE TO THE FACT THAT ALL OF US, BECAUSE ALL THE LEADERS, ALL THE DIRECTORS OF THE SHIN BET, SAID IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I -- I MET RONIN DURING TWO YEARS BEFORE -- >> WHO IS RONIN?
>> HE IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE SHIN BET NOW, DURING THE LAST TWO, THREE YEARS, AND I TOLD HIM, LOOK, I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, POLITICIANS AND POLITICAL LEADERS, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE TELLING YOU EXACTLY THE POLICIES THAT YOU SHOULD FOLLOW, BUT YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, EVERY DAY, EVERY MEETING, THAT THIS POLICY WILL LEAD US TO A WAVE OF VIOLENCE.
AND HE TOLD ME, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TELLING HIM, BUT PRIME MINISTER DID NOT LISTEN.
WHY?
I KNOW WHY.
BECAUSE HE PREFERRED HIS POLITICAL SURVIVAL.
ON THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL.
THAT'S IT.
>> YOU HAVE SAID SURVIVAL REQUIRES A POLITICAL SOLUTION AND A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
THAT -- AS YOU SAID, HAMAS WILL ONLY BE DEFEATED BY A WAR, IN THIS WAR OF IDEAS.
>> RIGHT.
>> WHICH IS OFFERING THE PALESTINIANS HOPE.
NOW, WE'VE HEARD LEAKED TAPES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, NETANYAHU'S MOST NATIONALISTIC ORTHODOX COALITION MEMBERS, THEY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LEADER SPEAKING ABOUT PREVENTED THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK BECOMING PART OF AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE, AND HE'S GETTING A LOT OF POWER AND PUTTING MORE SETTLERS ON, EMPOWERING THE SETTLERS.
IS THAT GOING TO WORK?
YOU KNOW, ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE THE FINAL SAY?
>> PROBABLY.
IF WE SHALL NOT HAVE THE POWER AND THE COURAGE TO CHANGE OUR POLICY, THEY WILL SUCCEED.
ISRAEL, WE DID NOT HAVE STATE FOR 2,000 YEARS.
WE WERE BORN, WE, ALL MY GENERATION, WE WERE BORN TO A REALITY IN WHICH A STATE IS SOMETHING OBVIOUS.
IT IS NOT.
UNLESS WE FIGHT AGAINST EVERYBODY WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ISRAEL AS A JEWISH DEMOCRACY.
WE SHALL NOT HAVE ISRAEL AS A JEWISH DEMOCRACY.
AND UNLESS WE SHALL UNDERSTAND -- >> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING INTERM, INTERNAL, ISRAELI OPPONENTS -- >> AGAIN AND AGAIN, I'M SAYING IT.
IF WE SHALL NOT END THE OCCUPATION, WE SHALL NOT HAVE SECURITY.
IF WE CHAT NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY AND WE SHALL NOT HAVE SECURITY.
AND THIS IS THE END OF THE ZIONIST DREAM.
BECAUSE THE ZIONIST DREAM IS A STATE OF -- FOR ISRAEL, WITH A SPECIFIC IDENTITY.
A JEWISH DEMOCRACY.
OUR PARENTS DID NOT COME FROM ARAB STATES AND EUROPE IN ORDER TO CREATE A TOTALITARIAN REGIME.
AND NOBODY WILL ACCEPT IT.
NOW PALESTINIANS ARE DEMANDING FREEDOM, AND THEY WILL FIGHT FOR THE END OF OCCUPATION, AND UNLESS WE SHALL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS PIECE OF LAND IS OURS, BUT IT IS NOT ONLY OURS, WE HAVE ONLY TWO OPTIONS.
TO DIVIDE IT AND TO KEEP OUR IDENTITY, OR NOT TO DIVIDE IT, AND TO LOSE OUR IDENTITY AND TO LOSE OUR SECURITY, AS WELL.
>> SO, DOES THIS WORRY YOU, THEN?
BECAUSE THIS IS NETANYAHU AGAIN IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT MOVING FROM THE FIRST, SECOND, AND NOW THE THIRD STAGE IN GAZA, THE THIRD STEP WILL BE THE CREATION OF A NEW SECURITY REGIME IN THE GAZA STRIP.
THE REMOVAL OF ISRAEL'S RESPONSIBILITY FOR DAY-TO-DAY LIFE THERE, AND THE CREATION OF A NEW SECURITY REALITY FOR THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?
DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS CARVING OUT A WHOLE PIECE OF -- >> [ BLEEP ].
>> OH, OKAY.
>> THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS.
NETANYAHU IS LYING TO US.
HE'S NOT STUPID.
HE'S THE BRIGHTEST PERSON THAT I MET.
BUT THIS IS TOXIC LEADERSHIP.
HE'S SELLING US SOMETHING THAT HE KNOWS THAT WILL NOT WORK.
HE KNOWS THE PALESTINIANS.
HE KNOWS THAT THEY WILL GO ON FIGHTING.
HE KNOWS THAT THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY ISRAELI LEADERSHIP THAT DOES NOT GIVE THEM THEIR NATIONAL LIBERTY AND END OF OCCUPATION.
HE KNOWS IT.
BUT HE'S TRYING TO SELL US SOMETHING THAT PROBABLY, BUT MOST ISRAELIS, AGAIN, HE DO NOT REPRESENT THE 75% OF HIS PEOPLE.
>> FINALLY, IF A WAR HAPPENS BETWEEN, A FULL-SCALE, BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH, THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED, LIKE THE UNITED STATES SOURCES, APPARENTLY, THAT THE IRON DOME, YOUR ANTI-MISSILE SHIELD, COULD BE OVERWHELMED IN THE OPENING STRIKES.
DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?
>> YES, OF COURSE.
>> UH-HUH.
>> THERE IS NO ULTIMATE SOLUTION.
AND THE CAPABILITIES OF HEZBOLLAH IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE FACED IN THE PAST.
AS LONG AS WE ARE FIGHTING IN GAZA, HE WILL HAVE THE LEGITIMACY TO GO ON FIGHTING, BUT THE MOMENT THAT WE SHALL ACHIEVE THE END OF WAR OR CEASE-FIRE, HE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO ON FIGHTING, BECAUSE WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, PALESTINIANS ARE SUFFERING.
THOUSANDS OF THEM.
YOU KNOW, -- >> MILLIONS.
>> MILLIONS, PROBABLY, LED FROM THEIR HOMES, AND THE WHOLE SOUTH OF LEBANON IS DESTROYED, SO -- YES.
THEY WILL NOT DO ANYTHING AGAINST HIM, AS LONG -- BUT HE REPRESENT THE SHIA COMMUNITY, AND THEY ARE DYING.
HE REPRESENT THE LEBANESE NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS, AND THEY KNOW THAT HE WILL BRING THEM THIS HUMILIATION, SO WE HAVE TO SEE, CONNECTED, AND THIS IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT.
IT IS NOT ONLY IMPORTANT TO BRING BACK OUR HOSTAGES, THAT THIS IS THE MORAL VICTORY THAT WE ARE -- THAT WE WANT TO ACHIEVE IMMEDIATELY.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT UNLESS WE SHALL END THIS WAR IN GAZA, WE SHALL NOT CREATE A BETTER REALITY IN THE NORTH.
>> AMI AYALON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NOW, A BACKLASH, INCLUDING CRITICISM LIKE THAT, HAS CAUSED ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER TO SINCE RESPOND TO THIS IN HIS -- FROM HIS INTERVIEW LAST NIGHT, IN SAYING THAT HE REMAINS COMMITTED TO THE PEACE PLAN ENDORSED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN.
BUT IN RAFAH, THE U.N. FOOD AGENCY IS DESCRIBING THE SITUATION AS APOCALYPTIC, WHILE ACROSS GAZA, MORE THAN 37,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH AUTHORITIES THERE.
AND I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO ARWA DAMON, WHO IS IN GAZA, PREVIOUSLY, A SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT FOR CNN.
SHE NOW HELPS THE CHARITY SHE FOUNDED, INARA, TO PROVIDE CARE TO CHILDREN IN WAR ZONES LIKE THAT.
HERE'S OUR CONVERSATION.
YOU KNOW, LAST TIME WE TALKED, I THINK IT WAS A MONTH OR MORE AGO, I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE CHILDREN, THE PEOPLE, WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, AND YOU SAID, PEOPLE'S EYES IN GAZA ARE DEAD.
WHAT IS THE SITUATION NOW, COMPARED TO WHAT YOU SAW THEN?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO DESCRIBE IT, BECAUSE IT IS EXPONENTIALLY, SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE, BECAUSE NOW ON TOP OF EVERYTHING THAT GAZANS HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH, ON TOP OF, YOU KNOW, THE DEATH AND THE DESTRUCTION, THE DISPLACEMENT, YOU ALSO HAVE HUMANITARIAN AID THAT IS NOT COMING IN IN SUFFICIENT QUANTITIES, AND BECOMING INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT TO DISTRIBUTE, EVEN WITHIN GAZA ITSELF, AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS THIS SORT OF OMINOUS DARK UNDERTONE OF ACTIVITY THAT IS TAKING PLACE, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO YOU TALK TO WILL HIGHLIGHT, AND THAT IS LOOTING AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
SO, AID ORGANIZATIONS ARE HAVING TO RUN A GAUNTLET ONCE THEY'RE ABLE TO ACTUALLY GET THEIR TRUCKS THROUGH AND THEIR ITEMS TO BE DISTRIBUTED PICKED UP, OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AND LOOTERS.
ADD TO ALL THAT, PEOPLE THEMSELVES ARE HIGHLIGHTING AND GROWING INCREASINGLY FEARFUL OF SORT OF THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE MORAL FABRIC OF SOCIETY, SO NOW YOU HAVE MEN WHO ARE STAYING BEHIND IN THEIR HOMES, EVEN IF IT'S JUST RUBBLE, TRYING TO GUARD WHATEVER IS LEFT OF THEM, BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RULE OF LAW IS ERADICATED, AND THEN, ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT, YOU HAVE THE COMPOUNDED TRAUMA AND THE TRIGGERS THAT ARE STILL HAPPENING ON A DAILY BASIS, CHRISTIANE.
>> WELL, I MEAN, YOU PAINT A VERY VIVID PICTURE, AND I WANT TO ASK YOU NOW ABOUT SOME PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AS WELL.
YOU'VE JUST BEEN VISITING A HOSPITAL THERE.
ON SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU WROTE, QUOTE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT RESEMBLE WHAT YOU PROBABLY IMAGINE WHEN YOU IMAGINE A HOSPITAL.
SO, JUST TELL ME ABOUT IT.
WHICH ONE, AND WHAT'S THE SITUATION THERE?
>> IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME, AND HAS BEEN EXACTLY PRETTY MUCH THE SAME IN JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE SEMIFUNCTIONING HOSPITAL HERE.
YOU DON'T HAVE CLEAN CORRIDORS, YOU DON'T HAVE ROOMS WHERE PATIENTS ARE.
THE HOSPITAL CORRIDORS ARE BASICALLY EITHER A WAITING ROOM FOR THE SICK AND INJURED, OR THEY HAVE FAMILIES THAT ARE BASICALLY TAKEN UP SHELTER IN THEM.
FLIES ARE EVERYWHERE.
SANITATION, HYGIENE, THE KIND THAT YOU WOULD NEED INSIDE A HOSPITAL TO PREVENT INFECTION, IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE.
AND THIS IS PUTTING EVEN MORE LIVES AT RISK.
WHILE I WAS THERE, I MET A LITTLE GIRL WHO WAS 5 YEARS OLD, SHE HAD SEVERE ABDOMINAL INJURIES, HER AUNT WAS WITH HER, AND HER AUNT WAS BASICALLY DESCRIBING HOW THIS LITTLE GIRL'S GUTS HAD JUST SPILLED OUT OF HER DUE TO SHRAPNEL DUE TO AN EXPLOSION.
SHE WAS FOUND LYING IN THE STREET.
HER LITTLE BROTHER IS WITH HER, WHO IS SEVERELY BURNT, AND THE REASON WHY, IT'S THEIR AUNT WHO IS WITH THEM, AND TRYING TO PROVIDE THEM WITH LOVE AND COMFORT, AND NOT THEIR MOTHER, IS BECAUSE BOTH OF THEIR PARENTS ARE DEAD, CHRISTIANE, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THIS YET.
I MET ANOTHER LITTLE BOY THERE WHOSE JERE THAT WAS SEVERED FROM HIS BLADDER.
THIS IS AN EVEN MORE CRITICAL CASE, BECAUSE HE IS AT VERY HIGH RISK FOR INFECTION, AND HIS FATHER WAS TELLING ME THAT THEY TRIED, AT THE HOSPITAL, TO DO TWO SURGERIES, BUT THEY WERE UNABLE TO FIX THIS, IT'S -- IT'S BEYOND THE CAPACITY, AND THIS IS A CHILD WHO NEEDS A VERY URGENT MEDICAL EVACUATION.
AND CHILDREN USED TO GET MEDICALLY EVACUATED, EVERYONE USED TO GET MEDICALLY EVACUATED OUT THROUGH RAFAH, WHICH OBVIOUSLY HAS NOT BEEN HAPPENING FOR NEARLY TWO MONTHS NOW.
>> I MEAN, IT REALLY IS JUST BEGGARS BELIEF TO HEAR CHILDREN IN THAT KIND OF DISTRESS AND PRETTY MUCH NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT.
SO, I JUST WONDERED, BECAUSE A LITTLE GLIMMER OF LIGHT WAS REPORTED BY THE JERUSALEM POST, THAT POTENTIALLY ISRAELI AUTHORITIES ARE IN COORDINATION WITH EGYPT, THINKING ABOUT OPENING A HUMANITARIAN CORRIDOR TO EVACUATE SEVERELY WOUNDED TO EGYPT.
DO YOU HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?
>> YEAH, WE DID HEAR ABOUT THAT A FEW DAYS AGO HERE ON THE GROUND.
AND FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE REALLY HAS THEIR FINGERS CROSSED AND HOPES THAT NOT ONLY WILL THIS HAPPEN, BUT THAT IT WILL OPEN UP IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WELL OVER 10,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE AWAITING MEDICAL EVACUATION, AND, YOU KNOW, LIVES ARE BEING LOST, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING MEDICALLY EVACUATED AND THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO GET THE MEDICAL TREATMENT THAT THEY NEED, AND, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SORT OF -- EVEN THE SMALLEST THING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, INSIDE GAZA, I MEAN -- IT'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY, AND YOU DON'T REALLY APPRECIATE JUST HOW POSSIBLE AND HARD IT IS TO GET ANYTHING DONE, UNTIL YOU'RE HERE.
LOOK, WE WERE AT ONE OF THE SHELTERS THAT INARA WORKS WITH.
A MOTHER NEEDED INSULIN FOR HER LITTLE GIRL.
THAT'S INCREDIBLY HARD TO FIND, AND THAT END UP USING ALTERNATIVE OFF-BRAND.
SO, WE WENT AROUND AND IT TOOK US DAYS TO GO PHARMACY TO PHARMACY, TRYING TO TRACK DOWN THE PROPER INSULIN THAT THIS GIRL NEEDED.
BY THE TIME WE WERE ABLE TO FIND IT AND DELIVER IT TO HER, SHE HAD ACTUALLY, THE DAY BEFORE, BEEN HOSPITALIZED FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS.
AND THEN, ON TOP OF THAT, IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO JUST DELIVER THE INSULIN TO THE FAMILY, BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO STAY REFRIGERATED, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU'RE IN A TENT, YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY, YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO REFRIGERATION.
WE WENT AROUND THE OTHER DAY TO DELIVER SANITARY PADS WITH A PARTNER ORGANIZATION, AND THERE, BECAUSE WHATEVER COMES IN, WE'RE LITERALLY SENDING OUT RIGHT AWAY.
AND THERE, PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR HYGIENE PRODUCTS, THEY'RE ASKING FOR FOOD BASKETS, THEY'RE WONDERING IF WE'RE GOING TO DO, YOU KNOW, FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, OR CLOTHING, OR CHILDREN'S SHOES.
AND I CAN'T EVEN DESCRIBE TO YOU WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE TO SAY, SORRY, THIS IS ALL WE HAVE, BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE IS ON TRUCKS AND HAS BEEN STUCK AND WAITING TO GET IN.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT IS JUST SO, SO DIRE AND HAVING SUCH A HUMAN REAL-TIME IMPACT, AND, OF COURSE, WHEN YOU SEE THE LINES AND LINES OF TRUCKS, IT'S -- IT'S VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING, AND THAT'S AN UNDERSTATEMENT.
YOU KNOW, YOU ARE HELPING THE CHILDREN, THAT'S WHAT YOUR INARA IS FOCUSED ON, IN CONFLICT ZONES AROUND THE WORLD.
NOW, SAVE THE CHILDREN HAS JUST SAID TODAY THAT UP TO 21,000 PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ARE MISSING IN GAZA BECAUSE OF THIS WAR.
AT LEAST 17,000 BELIEVED TO BE UNACCOMPANIED, AND SEPARATELY, -- AND SEPARATED.
AND APPROXIMATELY 4,000 CHILDREN LIKELY MISSING UNDER THE RUBBLE.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY DISPUTES THE SOURCE OF THOSE FIGURES.
TELL US -- TELL US A BIT MORE, WHATEVER YOU MIGHT KNOW.
>> WELL, LOOK, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER DAY, WE WERE WALKING AROUND NEAR SORT OF THE BEACHFRONT WHERE ALL THE TENTS ARE, AND THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT KIDS THAT, YOU KNOW, COME UP AND THEY'VE GOT SORT OF BITS AND PIECES, YOU KNOW, TO SELL, IT'S BEANS OR A TIN CAN THAT THEY POKED HOLES INTO THAT CAN BE USED TO PUT WOOD INTO TO CREATE A FIRE, AND YOU ASK THEM, YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?
THEY'RE FROM SO AND SO, WHERE ARE YOUR PARENTS, I DON'T KNOW.
AND YOU HEAR, IN TALKING TO PEOPLE, THAT THERE ARE COUNTLESS CHILDREN WHO, WHEN YOU ASK THEM WHERE THEIR PARENTS ARE, OR WHERE THEIR FAMILY IS, THEY SAY, I DON'T KNOW, OR I'M NOT SURE.
AND THEN, WHEN YOU DRIVE AROUND, ESPECIALLY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, TAKE AN AREA LIKE KHAN YUNIS THAT I WAS JUST IN A FEW HOURS AGO, THE BUILDINGS ARE FLAT.
I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING A SIX-STORY BUILDING THAT IS JUST PANCAKED, ONE ON TOP OF THE OTHER, AND THERE ISN'T THE HEAVY MACHINERY HERE TO DIG THROUGH THIS RUBBLE, OR EVEN BEGIN TO MOVE IT.
AND SO, IT'S NOT A STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION TO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, CHILDREN AND ADULTS, THEIR BODIES HAVE YET TO BE RECOVERED, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GO INTO THESE AREAS THAT, YOU KNOW, WERE SUBJECTED TO THIS EXTRAORDINARILY, UNIMAGINABLE HEAVY BOMBARDMENT, AND VERY INTENSE FIGHTING.
>> ARWA, WHEN YOU WERE A CNN JOURNALIST, YOU'VE BEEN TO PLACES HEAVILY DEVASTATED BY WAR, INCLUDING BUILDINGS COLLAPSED AND DEATH, DESTRUCTION, CHILDREN.
HAVE YOU SEEN ANYTHING THAT COMPARES TO THIS?
AND MORE TO THE POINT, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN THE BULLDOZERS COME IN, WHEN THIS WAR MAY OR MAY NOT END AND ATTEMPT TO -- I DON'T KNOW, RECONSTRUCT, FOR PEOPLE TO TRY TO FIND ALSO THEIR -- THEIR LOVED ONES WHO MAY BE STILL MISSING FOR THE LAST EIGHT MONTHS UNDER THE RUBBLE?
>> NO, I ACTUALLY HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS, BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME, AND YOU KNOW THIS WELL, WHEN YOU GO INTO AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN AS DESTROYED AS, YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF GAZA HAS BEEN, THE CIVILIAN POPULATION ACTUALLY HAS A SAFE SPACE TO FLEE TO, THAT MAY NOT BE PERFECT, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, THEY THEN HAVE ACCESS TO SHELTER, FOOD, WATER, MEDICINE, AND BASICALLY WHAT IT IS THAT US HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS ARE MEANT TO BE PROVIDING.
YOU DO NOT FIND YOURSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE SPENDING THREE HOURS TO GO A ROAD THAT WOULD NORMALLY TAKE 20 MINUTES, TO DELIVER TWO TENTS TO A FAMILY THAT HAS BEEN FORCED TO FLEE MULTIPLE TIMES AND ARE NOW LIVING NEXT TO A PILE OF RUBBLE THAT THEY WARN THE CHILDREN NOT TO GET CLOSE TO, BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL FOR UNEXPLODED ORDNANCE, AND THEY MOVED IN THIS SPECIFIC AREA, BECAUSE THEIR EXTENDED FAMILY IS LIVING IN A BUILDING NEAR.
AND BY A BUILDING NEARBY, I MEAN, JUST THE SORT OF SKELETON OF THE BUILDING, AND YOU LOOK INTO THE BUILDING, AND YOU SEE JUST WITHIN THE SORT OF -- WHAT'S LEFT OF THE CONCRETE, SOMEONE THERE SETTLING THEMSELVES.
PEOPLE HERE ARE CRAVING, THEY'RE DESPERATE, THEY DREAM ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE.
THEY DREAM ABOUT THE DAY WHEN RUBBLE WILL START TO BE CLEARED, BUT HERE'S ANOTHER THING TO ALSO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION, CHRISTIANE, THAT A MAN THAT I WAS TALKING TO THE OTHER DAY SAID.
HE SAID THE SECOND WAR IS GOING TO START WHEN THE BOMBS STOP.
AND THIS IS A PRETTY SORT OF MORBID THING TO SAY, BECAUSE HE WAS ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THE WAR WITHIN.
AND HE FURTHER EXPLAINED IT TO SAY, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, IN A WEIRD, TWISTED KIND OF WAY, WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS DISTRACTING US FROM THE PAIN THAT WE'VE HAD TO BURY.
BUT THE MINUTE THIS DISTRACTION ENDS, THAT PAIN IS GOING TO COME UP, AND IT'S GOING TO KILL US AGAIN.
>> YOU MEAN THE POST-TRAUMATIC PAIN?
>> EXACTLY.
THIS PAIN, BECAUSE WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE HERE, THERE'S THIS WEIRD SORT OF DARK SENSE OF HUMOR, THERE'S A CERTAIN STOW SCHISM.
PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE CALLED RESILIENT.
THERE IS A REAL SORT OF NEGATIVITY THAT IS FELT HERE WHENEVER PEOPLE ARE CALLED RESILIENT.
BECAUSE AS ONE WOMAN SAID, WE'RE NOT RESILIENT, WE'RE NOT SUPER HEROES, WE'RE TIRED.
WE HAVE BEEN FORCED INTO THIS.
BUT THERE IS A CERTAIN STOICISM, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE TO KEEP GOING, YOU HAVE TO KEEP BREATHING.
YOU HAVE TO KEEP WAITING IN LINE FOR WATER, SCRAPPING AROUND FOR FOOD, FIGURING AT HOW YOU'RE GOING TO GET YOUR KID MEDICINE OR DIAPERS, OR WHATEVER IT IS.
AND THAT NEED TO JUST STAY ALIVE HAS FORCED, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, ALL OF THIS COMPOUNDED PAIN DOWN, BUT IT'S GOING TO COME UP, AND PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF IT COMING UP, AND OF HAVING TO ACTUALLY TRULY CONFRONT EVERYTHING, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NINE MONTHS IN, IT'S STILL A SHOCK.
>> YEAH.
>> LOOK, WHEN I DRIVE AROUND, I'M OBVIOUSLY DRIVING AROUND WITH GAZANS, THIS IS THEIR CITY, THESE ARE THEIR PEOPLE, AND THEY'RE STILL SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF WHAT IT IS THAT THEY'RE SEEING.
>> ARWA, THANK YOU SO MUCH, AS EVER.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> AND, OF COURSE, AS WELL AS ARWA'S STORIES, WE HEARD SO MUCH RECENTLY NOW ABOUT HOW THERE'S A LACK OF AN THREAT ICKES, THERE'S SOME MANY AMPUTEES IN GAZA, HOW SOMETIMES THEY HAVE TO BE AMPUTATED THERE AND THEN IN ORDER JUST TO SAVE THEIR LIVES.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE OTHER ISSUE, SO MANY GAZANS WANT TO STAY IN GAZA, BUT EVEN THOUGH NOW THEY CAN'T GET OUT, THEY'RE REALLY CONSIDERING, THEY SAY, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM IN THE FEW SURE IF THERE WILL BE A FUTURE IN GAZA, WHICH GOES BACK TO OUR CONVERSATION WITH AMI AYALON, THAT THE ONLY FUTURE, HE SAYS, AND MOST SAY, IS A TWO-STATE SBLUGS SOLUTION, WHERE BOTH PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS LIVE IN FREEDOM AND SECURITY SIDE-BY-SIDE.
>>> WE TURN NOW TO WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE, AND WHAT OUR GUEST CALLS THE MIST OF MAKING IT.
SAMHITA MUKHOPADHYAY RECALLS CLIMBING THE CORPORATE CAREER LADDER.
AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE GIRL BOSS CULTURE CAN BE, IN FACT, TOXIC, EXPLOITIVE, AND EVEN SEXIST.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
SAMHITA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> SO EXCITED TO BE HERE.
>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE MAGS WILL KNOW YOUR NAME.
YOU WERE THE EDITOR OF "TEEN VOGUE," IS ESPECIALLY WHEN "TEEN VOGUE" HAD A BIGGER PLACE IN THE CULTURE.
YOU HAD THE BIG SHINY OFFICE, YOU HAD FRONT ROW SEATS AT THE SHOWS, I MEAN, THESE ARE SOME -- THE FASHION SHOWS, I MEAN.
THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS SOME PEOPLE DREAM ABOUT.
SO, WHEN DID YOU START TO SAY TO YOURSELF, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT I WANT?
OR AT LEAST TO QUESTION IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, I THINK THERE WAS THIS NARRATIVE THAT IF YOU HAVE A PERFECT JOB, YOU JUST WORK AS HARD AS POSSIBLE, AND EVERYTHING YOU'RE SACRIFICING IS WORTH IT, BECAUSE THAT'S THE PRICE OF SUCCESS.
AND WHILE I WAS SITTING FRONT ROW, I WAS LIVING A DREAM, IT JUST WASN'T NECESSARILY MINE.
AND I WAS STRUGGLING WITH A LOT OF THINGS, YOU KNOW, BEHIND THE INSTAGRAM PICTURE, WHERE I WAS, YOU KNOW, I WAS DEPRESSED, I WAS UNHAPPY, I WASN'T TAKING CARE OF MYSELF, I WAS DEALING WITH A LOT OF FAMILY ISSUES THAT I HAD TO KIND OF -- SOME CARETAKING ISSUES, AND I STARTED TO REALIZE IN THAT MOMENT THAT THERE WAS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN WHAT I THOUGHT IT MEANT TO MAKE IT, AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY WOULD MEAN TO MAKE IT FOR MYSELF.
BUT I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE WHAT I CALL, YOU KNOW, THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK, A RECKONING AROUND IT, UNTIL THE PANDEMIC HIT.
AND I COULDN'T GO INTO THE OFFICE, AND THE GLITZ AND GLAMOUR OF FRONT ROW SEATS AND, YOU KNOW, DINNERS ON THE TOWN, AND EVENTS AT NIGHT AND, YOU KNOW, DESIGNERS SENDING YOU CLOTHES, ONCE THAT FADED, AND IT WAS JUST ME AND A ZOOM SCREEN AND A DISGRUNTLED STAFF, I REALIZED THAT THE JOB WASN'T NECESSARILY MAKING ME HAPPY.
AND I WASN'T ALONE, RIGHT?
MILLIONS OF WOMEN STARTED TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION ABOUT WHY ARE WE WORKING SO HARD, WHY ARE WE QUOTE UNQUOTE BEING PUSHED TO BE SO AMBITIOUS WHEN ULTIMATELY WE'RE TIRED AND BURNED OUT AND WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THE FINANCIAL OR REALLY, YOU KNOW, MATERIAL SUCCESS THAT WE SHOULD BE SEEING COMPARED TO HOW MUCH WE'RE WORKING.
>> DID THAT REALIZATION COME ALL AT ONCE, LIKE, WAS IT A EUREKA MOMENT OR WAS IT A MORE GRADUAL THING, LIKE, I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF IT WERE.
>> THERE WERE MULTIPLE MOMENTS LEADING UP TO THAT MOMENT, AND I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN WERE FEELING, YOU KNOW, FROM WHAT I TRACE IN THE BOOK, FROM THE, YOU KNOW, 2014, WHERE THERE WAS THIS BUZZ AND YOU HAD THE KIND OF YEAR OF THE GIRL BOSS AND THE YEAR OF THE WOMAN AND EVERYBODY WAS, YOU KNOW, SAYING, LIKE, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IF YOU WORK HARD, JUST LEAN IN, RIGHT?
JUST GIRL BOSS THROUGH IT, YOU KNOW, GET THE RIGHT PLANNER, BE ORGANIZED.
WE HAD UBER, AMAZON, ZAPPOS, EVERYTHING.
WE WERE UNSTOPPABLE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT FOR ME, PERSONALLY, WHAT HAD HAPPENED WAS, I LOST A JOB IN 2017, AND I WAS QUITE TRAUMATIZED BY THAT EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE I WORKED REALLY HARD TO GET THAT JOB, I DIDN'T REALLY SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL, LOOKING BACK, I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE, AND IT WAS AN UNSAY MOAN YUS LAYOFF, I TOOK IT PERSONALLY, AND I TOOK IT AS A REFERENDUM ON ALL THE HARD WORK THAT I HAD DONE AND ALL OF THE SACRIFICES THAT I HAD MADE IN MY CAREER, RATHER THAN TAKE A BREAK AND REFLECT ON IT, I DOVE HEAD FIRST INTO THE "TEEN VOGUE" JOB AND I DESCRIBE IT AS A REBOUND RELATIONSHIP, WHERE I'M LIKE, ONE PLACE DIDN'T WANT ME AND A MUCH SEXIER PLACE DID.
AND I WAS SO EXCITED ABOUT THAT, NOT REALIZING THAT ENTIRE TIME THAT I KIND OF CARRIED THAT TRAUMA, THAT WORKPLACE TRAUMA AND THAT DEEP DISAPPOINTMENT WITH ME, AND THAT STARTED TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY CORRODE WHILE I WAS IN THE JOB AND IN THIS HIGH PRESSURE JOB.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS DRIVING YOU TO BEGIN WITH?
WHAT'S THE ROOT OF THIS DEEP STEM THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
>> PART OF IT, I BELIEVE, IS GENERATIONAL.
I WAS RAISED IN A TIME WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE ETHOS WAS, WORK HARD, PLAY HARD.
IF YOU WORK HARD, YOU GET THAT PAYDAY AND YOU CAN PLAY REALLY HARD.
I'M ALSO THE CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS, AND THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT I'M LUCKY TO BE HERE, AND I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF EVERY OPPORTUNITY THAT'S PUT MY WAY.
AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND A MAN THAT GETS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY IS THE HUSTLE THAT I PUT INTO IT AND HOW HARD I WORK.
SO, I FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVED.
AND AT THE CORE OF IT, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I REALLY UNCOVERED WHILE WRITING THE BOOK, I DID BELIEVE THAT I DIDN'T DESERVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT WERE COMING MY WAY.
AND SO, I WAS COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE SELF-SACRIFICING TO KEEP THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY LEARNED IN REPORTING AT THE BOOK IS HOW MANY WOMEN AND HOW MANY WOMEN OF COLOR FELT THE SAME WAY.
THAT RATHER THAN AN ORGANIZATION BE LUCKY TO HAVE THEM FOR THEIR HARD WORK AND FOCUS AND DIVERSE PERSPECTIVE THEY MIGHT BE BRINGING, THEY SHOULD FEEL GRATEFUL.
AND THERE ARE MANY INFRASTRUCTURES WITHIN THE WORKPLACE THAT KEEP YOU FEELING THAT WAY, RIGHT?
TO HAVE YOU FEEL ISOLATED IN YOUR OWN AMBITION, CONVINCING WOMEN THAT THERE'S NO HURDLE THAT'S STRUCTURAL, THAT A LITTLE HUSTLE CAN'T OVERCOME.
THAT THE RIGHT DAY PLANNER OR THE RIGHT EXERCISE CLASS OR THE RIGHT TUPPERWEAR SET CANNOT HELP YOU ORGANIZE YOUR LIFE AND OVERCOME ANY HURDLE, WHEN WE KNOW MANY OF THEM ARE STRUCTURAL.
THE PAY GAP IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.
LACK OF EFFECTIVE FAMILY LEAVE IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.
WE INTERNALIZE THAT WE NEED TO OVERCOME THOSE HURDLES BY WORKING HARD.
SO, THAT WAS REALLY THE ROOT OF HOW I STARTED TO BELIEVE THAT THAT'S WHY I HAD TO SACRIFICE SO MUCH TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN MY CAREER.
>> CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR SOME TIME THAT REALLY THIS IS FEMINISM'S FAULT, THAT THEY SOLD WOMEN A BILL OF GOODS, AND THAT THEY SHOULD KIND OF REORIENT TOWARD THE HOME.
>> THAT WAS SOMETHING I WAS REALLY FASCINATED WITH IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE I THINK WE TALK A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, BUT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE '60s AND '70s, AND EVEN THE EARLY '80s, BOTH FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, BUT IN TERMS OF WHERE THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT WAS AND WHAT WAS ACTUALLY PUSHED TO WOMEN AS THE NARRATIVE OF THE WORKPLACE.
SO, YOU HAD THE BETTY FORDANS OF THE WORLD WHO SAID WOMEN THAT WENT TO COLLEGE, THEY BECAME HOUSEWIVES AND THEY ARE MISERABLE AND WE NEED TO SUPPORT THEM TO GO OUT INTO THE WORK FORCE.
THAT WAS FOR AFFLUENT WHITE WOMEN, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOLL FOR THOSE WOMEN TO GO INTO THE WORK FORCE, WOMEN OF COLOR HAD TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHURN, FLIGHT WHO MANY OF THEM WERE ALREADY WORK, AND WOULD LOVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAY HOME AND BE WITH THEIR FAMILIES, BUT DIDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO, BECAUSE THEY WERE OUT WORKING.
LATER ON, I WAS VERY FASCINATED BY THE WRITER HELEN GIRLY BROWN, WHO WAS THE LONGTIME EDITOR OF "COSMOPOLITAN" MAGAZINE.
AND SHE WROTE A BOOK IN THE '60s THAT MADE HER QUITE FAMOUS.
THE BOOK SHE WROTE IN THE '80s WAS CALLED "HAVING IT ALL."
THAT BOOK WAS ABOUT HOW WOMEN COULD HAVE IT ALL.
SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW TO STILL BE, YOU KNOW, AN ATTRACTIVE WOMEN WHILE BEING SUCCESSFUL IN HER CAREER.
SHE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HAVING CHILDREN.
SHE DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN.
>> THERE IS ONE THING SHE'S KNOWN FOR, WHICH IS SORT OF CELEBRATING A WOMAN AS A SEXUAL BEING.
AS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK, MY READ OF IT NOW WAS SEXUAL IN MEN'S TERMS, LIKE, BEING ATTRACTIVE TO MEN.
WHY WAS SHE SO FASCINATING TO YOU?
>> TO ME, THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF TAKING THE VALUES OF FEMINISM, BUT TRYING TO PUSH THEM ON A BROADER AUDIENCE.
AS SUCH, SHE REACHED A BROWDER AUDIENCE.
SHE WAS REALLY TALKING TO PINK COLLAR WORKERS, SECRETARIES IN THE CITY, YOU KNOW, WOMEN THAT WERE WORKING AS TEACHERS ASSISTANTS, KNOW, WOMEN THAT HADN'T REALLY BEEN SPOKEN TO BY THE BROADER MOVEMENT.
AND IT WORKED.
PEOPLE WERE VERY COMPELLED BY THE MESSAGING.
EVEN IF THE ORIGIN OF IT IS COMPLICATED, THE WAY THAT WE TALK ABOUT IT STILL FRAMES HOW WE TALK ABOUT WOMEN AND THE WORKPLACE.
AND SO, I GUESS TO YOUR POINT ABOUT WHAT IS THE ROOT OF HOW WE TALK ABOUT THIS, WHEN WE TRANSITIONED FROM FEMINISM AS A COLLECTIVE MOVEMENT, WORKERS RIGHTS AS A COLLECTIVE MOVEMENT, TO THIS INDIVIDUALISTIC IDEA THAT WHEN YOU WORK HARD ENOUGH, YOU CAN GET AHEAD, WOMEN START TO BECOME MORE COMPETITIVE WITH EACH OTHER.
THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT IF I WORK HARD, I CAN GET THAT SEAT AT THE TABLE.
AND I THINK THAT, IN MANY WAYS, IS THE ROOT OF IT, WHERE AS, YOU KNOW, A FEMINISM OF THE WORKPLACE, WHICH COULD REALLY BE ABOUT OUR COLLECTIVE ORGANIZING, TURNED INTO AN INDIVIDUAL PURSUIT, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE WINK OF AN EYE AND WEARING THE RIGHT SUIT AND TAKING THE RIGHT MEETINGS WOULD HELP YOU GET AHEAD AT WORK.
AND THE ADVICE IS NOT FULLY WRONG.
LIKE, WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE CERTAIN STRATEGIES WE CAN USE IN THE WORKPLACE THAT WILL GET US AHEAD.
BUT WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR WOMEN AS A WHOLE?
>> I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT INDIVIDUALISM HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF THIS CULTURE, SO, I GUESS I'M WONDERING, LIKE, WHY IS ANYBODY SURPRISED THAT A CERTAIN COHORT OF WOMEN LIKE THAT STORY FOR THEMSELVES?
RIGHT?
>> I DO THINK THAT FOR SOME WOMEN, IT IS THE ONLY NARRATIVE, RIGHT?
THERE ISN'T THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONNECT WITH OTHER WOMEN AROUND THEIR EXPERIENCES.
YOU DON'T -- NOT EVERY WORKPLACE CAN BE UNIONIZED.
ESPECIALLY WHEN I WORKED AT "TEEN VOGUE," YOUNG WOMEN OF COLOR, THEY REALLY BOUGHT INTO HUSTLE CULTURE AND GIRL BOSSING, BECAUSE FOR THEM, THAT WAS A CONCRETE WAY FOR THEM TO GET OUT OF THE LIVED EXPERIENCING THAT BY HAVING, AND TO CHANGE THEIR MATERIAL CONDITIONS.
MY ARGUMENT IS A LITTLE BIT BROADER THAN THAT, RIGHT?
I THINK WE KNOW THAT THE INDIVIDUALISM IS THE SPIRIT OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, RIGHT?
WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS PEOPLE ARE BECOMING VERY CRITICAL OF THAT, BECAUSE THEY'RE LOOKING AT OLDER GENERATIONS, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER PEOPLE, THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, YOU DID EVERYTHING YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO, YOU LEANED IN, YOU GIRL BOSSED, YOU TRIED TO HAVE IT ALL, AND YOU STILL DOWN OWN A HOUSE, YOU STILL HAVE STUDENT DEBT, AND I'M NOT GOING TO SIGN UP FOR THAT.
THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M GOING TO SIGN UP FOR THAT V. AND SO I THINK WE ARE AT THIS MOMENT OF A RECKONING, WHERE WE'RE LOOKING AROUND, SAYING, WHY ARE WE WORKING LIKE THIS IF IT'S NOT GOING TO PAY OFF AND ACTUALLY GIVE US THE HAPPINESS AND SUPPORT AND STABILITY THAT WE DESERVE AND NEED TO LIVE SUCCESSFUL AND FASHIONAL LIVES?
ARE MEN HAVING SUCH A GREAT TIME?
>> I DON'T THINK MEN ARE HAVING A PARTICULARLY GREAT TIME.
PART OF MY INTEREST IN WOMEN IS PART MEMOIR, SO IT IS ALSO MY OWN EXPERIENCE AS A WOMAN NAVIGATING CORPORATE WORKPLACES.
WOMEN ARE STILL PAID LESS ON THE DOLLAR, WOMEN STILL DO THE MAJORITY OF CARE WORK.
YOU KNOW, MOTHERS ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAJORITY OF CARE WORK, AND REALLY, TO ME, MOTHERS ARE WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE CRACKS ARE REALLY STARTING TO SHOW, BETWEEN OUR ABILITY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR FAMILIES AND HAVE HEALTHY FAMILIES AND OUR ABILITY TO BE WORKING AND BE AMBITIOUS IN THE WORKPLACE.
>> YOU TALKED WITH A NUMBER OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION EXPERTS FOR THIS BOOK.
THAT'S A TERM THAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE HEARD, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DO WORK IN ONE OF THESE BIG CORPORATIONS, AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S BEEN A POLITICAL BACKLASH AGAINST THESE CONCEPTS.
BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THOSE CONVERSATIONS ADD TO WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THEM?
>> YOU KNOW, INTERESTINGLY, THERE IS NEW RESEARCH THAT A LOT OF THE DNI PROGRAMS FROM THAT TIME HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE, BUT SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABANDONED.
AND WE'RE SEEING THAT, RIGHT?
WE'RE SEEING THE LAID OFF DEI OFFICER THAT WAS THE FIRST TO GET CUT IN THE LATEST ROUND OF BUDGET CUTS.
AND WHAT'S BEEN UNDERSTOOD AS THE BUSINESS CASE FOR DIVERSITY, WE'RE LEARNING IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT.
NOT ONLY IS THERE A BUSINESS CASE FOR DIVERSITY, BUT DIVERSE ENVIRONMENTS MAKE FOR BETTER WORKPLACES.
THEY MAKE FOR AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A VARIETY OF PEOPLE TO FEEL INCLUDED.
BUT THERE'S A CULTURAL VALUE.
AND WE KNOW THERE'S A CHANGING FACE OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION.
WE WANT TO INSTEP GRATE AND EMPOWER ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LEADERS, BECAUSE WHEN WE DO, WE SEE OUR TEAMS WORK BETTER TOGETHER, THEY'RE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH EACH OTHER, THEY'RE BETTER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE ALL VALUES THAT ARE STARTING TO BECOME A LOT MORE IMPORTANT IN COMPANIES, AND SO, I WAS JUST VERY FASCINATED BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT HAS GONE INTO THE INDUSTRY, YET HOW AT THE END OF THE DAY, SO MANY WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR STILL MAKE LESS MONEY.
AND SO, WHAT IS THE GAP THERE?
WHY ARE WE SAYING, WE'RE INVESTED IN THIS, AND THEN ULTIMATELY, WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THE MATERIAL SUCCESS OF THAT?
AND SO, THAT'S WHY I TALKED TO SO MANY EXPERTS.
I WAS FASCINATED BY HOW, YOU KNOW, EMPLOYEES AND, REALLY, COMPANIES, WERE TAKING ON THESE INITIATIVES, BUT WHY IN SO MANY INSTANCES THEY WEREN'T ULTIMATELY EFFECTIVE?
>> THERE'S A QUOTE FROM THE BOOK THAT I WANTED TO RUN BY YOU THAT STRUCK A LOT OF US WHO READ IT.
YOU SAID, MAKING IT IS A MYTH TO ME.
NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T MAKE IT, I DID MAKE IT, AND I'M STILL MAKING IT, I'M STILL ON A HAMP STER WHEEL.
I STILL WORK TOO MUCH.
I STILL HAVE SUCH A HARD TIME DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO GET DONE, LET ALONE BEING ABLE TO THINK ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE.
I HAVE LONG BEEN IN A PRISON OF MY OWN AMBITION, STUCK WITHOUT A NARRATIVE FOR MOVING FORWARD, AND THE CHANGE I SEEK, THE CHANGE WE SEEK, IS NOT GOING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH DAY PLANNERS, IT'S GOING TO COME FROM DEEP PERSONAL AND REFLECTIVE TRANSFORMATIONS.
THERE'S A LOT THERE, BUT SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.
>> THE QUOTE AROUND BEING IN A PRISON OF MY OWN AMBITION IS SOMETHING THAT'S COME UP QUITE A BIT, AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY WHAT I MEAN TO SAY THERE IS, MY AMBITIONS OUTWEIGHED WHAT WERE THE RESOURCES, TOOLS, AND STRUCTURES AROUND ME TO SUPPORT THOSE AMBITIONS.
SO, WHILE I MAY HAVE BEEN VERY AMBITIOUS, AND I WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, WRITE BOOKS, WRIT ARTICLES, HAVE THIS GREAT JOB, I WAS LIMITED BY THE FACT THAT I DIDN'T HAVE ANY TYPE OF REAL SUPPORT TO HELP ME WITH THAT, BOTH AT WORK, WITH MY FAMILY, AND, YOU KNOW, JUST LITERALLY HOW MANY HOURS ARE IN A DAY.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH, WHERE THEY ARE AMBITIOUS, THEY WANT TO DO AS MUCH AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY DO, BUT THERE'S LIMITATIONS TO OUR TIME, TO OUR MATERIAL RESOURCES.
TO OUR ABILITY TO -- OUR FLEXIBILITY IN THE WORKPLACE, OUR ABILITY TO DO ANY OF THE THINGS WE REALLY WANT TO DO.
AND THAT IS WHERE THE REFLECTION IN THE BOOK REALLY STARTED, WHERE I REALIZED THAT I HAD INTERNALIZED THIS IDEA THAT IF I WORKED HARD ENOUGH, I WOULD MAKE IT.
AND I DID.
IN A LOT OF WAYS, RIGHT, I MADE IT.
BUT I ALSO WAS NOT HAPPY IN DOING THAT AND I DID NOT SEE THE KIND OF SUCCESS THAT I THOUGHT I WOULD.
AND FOR ME, THERE WAS TWO PIECES TO THAT THAT I REALIZED.
THE FIRST WAS, REDEFINING HOW WE SEE SUCCESS, AND REDEFINING WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS TO MAKE IT.
BUT THE SECOND WAS RECOGNIZING THAT I ALONE WAS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO OVERCOME EVERY HURDLE AND EXPERIENCE THAT I EXPERIENCED IN THE WORKPLACE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO TAKE ME REACHING OUT, BUILDING COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT BE SOME TYPE OF WORKER ORGANIZING, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, TO CHANGE MATERIAL CONDITIONS FOR EMPLOYEES.
>> AND YOU ARE ALSO STILL A BOSS.
I'M WONDERING IF THIS WHOLE KIND OF E MOTIONAL, MENTAL, SPIRITUAL, JOURNEY THAT YOU'VE BEEN ON HAS CHANGED THE WAY YOU BOSS.
>> ABSOLUTELY, IT HAS.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE REALLY LEARNED THROUGH MANAGEMENT IS THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU CAN BE A MANAGER THAT IS MINDFUL OF THIS MOMENT, AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT PEOPLE ARE INTERACTING WITH WORK, AND HOW TO ACTUALLY HAVE THEM FEEL INCLUDED AND FEEL OKAY ABOUT WHATEVER THEY'RE GRAPPLING WITH IN THEIR LIFE, THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE EVERYTHING FOR THEIR JOB.
I'M REALLY HANDS-ON IN TERPS OF FEEDBACK, I'M REALLY STRUCTURED IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT I HAVE AROUND EXPECTATIONS, WHAT PEOPLE ARE EXPECTED TO DO ON THE JOB, AND ALSO, TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE GIVING ME FEEDBACK.
SO, IT'S A RELATIONSHIP, NOT A ONE-SIDED, YOU KNOW, DICTATORSHIP, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE WAYS I'VE TRIED TO ACCOUNT FOR THIS MOMENT.
BUT I'VE ALSO ACCEPTED THAT I ALONE CAN'T FIX THIS MOMENT.
I CAN'T FIX HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE MISERABLE AT WORK RIGHT NOW.
I CAN'T FIX THE KIND OF MONEY I HAVE ACCESS TO, THE TYPES OF RAISES THAT I CAN GIVE.
SO, THOSE ARE THE PLACES THAT I DO STEP BACK.
AND I'M QUITE TRANSPARENT ABOUT IT.
I SAY, HERE'S WHAT'S POSSIBLE, HERE'S WHAT I CAN DO.
IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS JOB, HERE'S THE REALITY OF THE JOB, HERE'S HOW I CAN MAKE IT BETTER, BUT THESE ARE THE DECISIONS YOU NEED TO MAKE.
AND THE MORE FRANK I AM AND IS THE MORE HONEST I AM, THE MORE ENGAGED FRANKLY, COMMITTED MY EMPLOYEES TEND TO BE.
>> BEFORE WE GO, THINK ABOUT THAT YOUNG WOMAN THAT WAS SOLD A BILL OF GOODS AND NEEDED TO GET KNOCKED AROUND, BEFORE US REALIZED IT WAS A BILL OF GOODS.
CAN YOU THINK BACK TO THAT PERSON?
WHAT WOULD YOU THINK, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?
>> AT THE TIME, I TOLD MYSELF TO FAKE IT UNTIL I MADE IT, AND WHAT I WOULD SAY NOW IS, DON'T FEEL THAT YOU'RE LUCKY TO BE THERE, THEY'RE LUCKY TO HAVE YOU AS MUCH AS YOU'RE LUCKY TO BE THERE, AND THAT THERE'S ALWAYS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE AN IMPACT, AND BE INVESTED IN YOUR WORK, BUT BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT YOUR LIMITATIONS ARE, AND WHAT YOU'RE ABLE TO ACTUALLY DO WITH THE RESOURCES THAT YOU HAVE, AND DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF WHEN YOU'RE NOT MEETING WHAT YOU FEEL SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE, TO REALLY CALIBRATE WHAT SUCCESS IS POSSIBLE IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF CONTROL OVER MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING AROUND YOU.
I THINK THAT'S THE ADVICE I WOULD PROBABLY GIVE.
AND THE ADVICE THAT I REALLY HOPE PEOPLE FEEL FROM THIS BOOK.
BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN ADVICE BOOK, BUT WHAT I HOPE PEOPLE GET OUT OF IT IS THAT THEY FEEL A LITTLE LESS ALONE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY HAPPENED WITH WORKPLACE FEMINISM, OR WHAT ACADEMICS HAVE CALLED THIS KIND OF THING, IS THE BELIEF THAT YOU CAN PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOT STRAPS AND WITH HARD WORK, YOU CAN OVERCOME ANY OBSTACLE YOU FACE, AND THAT HAS LEFT MANY OF US FEELING ALONE AND FEELING LIKE FAILURES, BOTH IN OUR FAMILIES AND IN OUR CAREERS, AND WE ARE ALONE CAN'T ACTUALLY CHANGE MANY OF THE STRUCTURES THAT WE'RE FACING, IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE COLLECTIVE, WHETHER THAT'S ORGANIZING, TALKING, CONVERSATIONS, WORK WIVES, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, WE NEED COLLECTIVE COMMUNITY TO OVERCOME MANY OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING IN THE WORKPLACE.
>> SAMHITA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND FINALLY, TONIGHT, COLLECTIVE COMMUNITY FROM THE WORKPLACE TO THE BALLOT BOX.
TWO YEARS AGO TODAY, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE VERSUS WADE.
THE FEDERAL RIGHT TO AN ABORTION.
AND IT'S A KEY ISSUE IN THE NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
AND PERHAPS ALSO IN FRANCE, WHERE THOUSANDS OF WOMEN HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING AGAINST THE FAR RIGHT AHEAD OF THEIR SNAP ELECTIONS NEXT WEEK.
FEARING FOR THEIR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, AND THE MOVE TO ENSHRINE THEM IN THE CONSTITUTION COULD BE UNDERMINED.
MEANWHILE, IN BRAZIL, WOMEN WERE ALSO ON THE MARCH DEMANDING THE END OF A BILL THAT WOULD EQUATE ABORTION AFTER 22 WEEKS WITH HOMICIDE.
AS HILLARY CLINTON FAMOUSLY ONCE SAID, HUMAN RIGHTS ARE WOMEN'S RIGHTS, AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.