“BoyMom” Author Looks at Raising Sons in an Age of “Impossible Masculinity”

>>> AND NOW WE TURN TO THE ISSUE OF MODERN BOYHOOD, WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF AUTHOR RUTH WHIPPMAN'S NEW BOOK, "BOYMOM: REIMAGINING BOYHOOD IN THE AGE OF IMPOSSIBLE MASCULINITY".

MICHEL MARTIN SAT DOWN WITH WHIPPMAN TO DISCUSS HER SURPRISING FINDINGS AFTER MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS WITH DOZENS OF BOYS THAT ACTUALLY RESHAPED HER VIEWS OF PARENTING.

>> RUTH WHIPPMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, TONI MORRISON ONCE SAID SHE WROTE "THE BLUEST EYE" BECAUSE SHE WROTE THE BOOK SHE WANTED TO READ.

AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT IS TRUE OF YOU TOO, THAT YOU WROTE THE BOOK THAT YOU WANTED TO READ.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, MY THIRD SON WAS BORN RIGHT AS THE "ME TOO" MOVEMENT WAS GOING CRAZY.

I WAS SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, A FEMINIST, A MOTHER OF THREE BOYS.

I WAS CONFLICTED, AND EVERYTHING ON THE MARKET WITH BOOKS SEEMED TO BE EITHER JUST HAD THIS KIND OF CERTAINTY THAT I JUST DIDN'T REALLY FEEL.

SO EITHER THEY WERE SAYING, IT'S A PARENTING BOOK.

HERE'S THE FIVE TIPS TO RAISE THE EXACT FEMINIST SON THAT YOU WANT, OR THEY WERE WRITTEN BY MEN, AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY EXPLORE THE MOTHER EXPERIENCE, OR I FELT LIKE THEY WEREN'T BEING FULLY HONEST ABOUT THE CONFLICTED FEELINGS INVOLVED.

I ABSOLUTELY NEEDED THIS BOOK, SO I WAS LIKE, OKAY, I THINK I NEED TO WRITE IT.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL INQUIRY?

>> I THINK IT WAS A COUPLE OF THINGS.

IT WAS WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE WIDER CULTURAL CONVERSATION BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY MY THIRD SON WAS BORN RIGHT AS THE "ME TOO" MOVEMENT WAS GOING CRAZY.

IT JUST SEEMED TO BE THIS ABSOLUTE HORROR SHOW OF BAD NEWS ABOUT MEN.

I WAS IN LABOR, LOOKING AT MY PHONE, AND IT WOULD JUST BE ONE TWEET AFTER ANOTHER WITH YET ANOTHER MAN BEING EXPOSED AS A SEXUAL PREDATOR OR A SCHOOL SHOOTER, OR SOMETHING TERRIBLE.

I WANTED TO DIG INTO THAT.

WHERE ARE WE GOING WRONG ON A CULTURAL AND SYSTEMIC LEVEL?

MEANWHILE I WAS VERY INVESTED IN THIS FROM A PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE MY OWN BOYS WERE GOING COMPLETELY CRAZY.

I WAS PARENTING THESE WILD, RAMBUNCTIOUS BOYS IN THE SHADOW OF THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION IN THE SHADOW OF TOXIC MASCULINITY.

IF THEY LOVE TO WRESTLE ALL THE TIME, DOES THAT MEAN THEY'RE SOMETHING TOXIC OR WRONG GOING ON OR I'M DOING SOMETHING WRONG?

HAD I WANTED TO PUT ALL THOSE PIECES IN CONTEXT AND LOOK AT THE PERSONAL AND POLITICAL.

>> IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE FOUND OUT BOTH IN YOUR BOOK AND IN AN EXCERPT THAT HAS APPEARED IN "THE TIMES" THAT HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION IS THAT BOYS ARE HURTING.

SORT OF DESCRIBE KIND OF THE TOP LINE SURPRISE FOR YOU ABOUT JUST HOW MUCH BOYS AND YOUNG MEN ARE HURTING.

>> YEAH.

SO I INTERVIEWED MANY BOYS OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, YOU KNOW, ECONOMICALLY, RACIALLY, GEOGRAPHICALLY.

AND THE THEME THAT KEPT COMING UP OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT REALLY SURPRISED ME WAS JUST HOW LONELY THEY WERE.

AND PARTLY THAT WAS TO DO WITH LIKE ACTUAL ISOLATION, AND THAT'S SHOWING UP IN A LOT OF DATA ABOUT BOYS SPENDING A LOT OF TIME ON SCREENS AND REPLACING THAT KIND OF REAL-LIFE SOCIALIZING WITH SCREEN-BASED SOCIALIZING.

SO BOYS ARE BECOMING MATERIALLY MORE ISOLATED.

BUT ALSO EVEN THOUGH ONES WHO DID HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS, WHO DID HANG OUT WITH THEM, FELT THEY COULDN'T REALLY FIND THAT KIND OF INTIMATE CONNECTION.

THEY COULDN'T TALK TO THEIR FRIENDS ABOUT THOSE INTIMATE, PERSONAL, SORT OF MORE -- YOU KNOW, MORE VULNERABLE THINGS.

THOSE WERE KIND OF THE OLD SCRIPTS OF MASCULINITY THAT WERE VERY MUCH STILL IN CIRCULATION.

SO I THINK THE TOP LINE WAS KIND OF LONELINESS, BUT ALSO I THINK THESE BOYS FELT VERY SHUT DOWN.

YOU KNOW, THEY FELT SHUT DOWN FROM THE OLD SYSTEM OF MASCULINITY, WHICH WAS LIKE MEN BE TOUGH, DON'T SHOW YOUR FEELINGS.

BUT ALSO FROM THESE NEW KIND OF MORE PROGRESSIVE VOICES WHERE IT WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A MAN.

YOU'RE PRIVILEGED.

IT'S NOT YOUR TURN TO SPEAK.

YOU NEED TO BE QUIET AND LET SOMEBODY ELSE HAVE A TURN.

SO THEY KIND OF JUST REALLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO BE, HOW TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES.

>> RUTH, TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THE BOYS THAT YOU MET.

>> THERE IS A REALLY, REALLY WIDE RANGE, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL AND RACIAL BACKGROUNDS, BUT ALSO JUST IN THE KIND OF TYPE OF KIDS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OR YOUNG MEN.

YOU KNOW, SOME OF THEM WERE VERY SORT OF ISOLATED AND SLIGHTLY SOCIALLY AWKWARD.

SOME OF THEM WERE THESE POPULAR, COOL KIDS.

BUT WHAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING WAS MORE OF THE SIMILARITIES IN WHAT THEY WERE SAYING THAN THE DIFFERENCES.

I THINK THEY ALL FELT QUITE HEMMED IN AND OPPRESSED BY THESE IDEAS OF MASCULINITY THAT WERE BEING FORCED ON THEM.

THEY ALL FELT IT WAS VERY HARD FOR THEM TO, LIKE, EXPRESS THEIR EMOTIONS AND EVEN FOR THEM TO NAME THEIR OWN EMOTIONS TO THEMSELVES.

THEY FOUND IT REALLY HARD EVEN TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE THEY COULD FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY WERE FEELING, LET ALONE TELL THEIR FRIENDS ABOUT IT.

SO THAT WAS ONE THING.

THEY FELT KIND OF ISOLATED.

THEY FELT LIKE THEY COULDN'T TALK TO THEIR FRIENDS.

A LOT OF THEM USED THE SAME EXPRESSION.

YOU KNOW, KIDS FROM VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS USED THE SAME EXPRESSION OF ME, WHICH IS YOU CAN NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN.

THEY USED THE EXACT SAME PHRASE TO DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A BOY AMONGST MALE PEERS.

YOU WERE ALWAYS ON THE VERGE OF GETTING KNOCKED DOWN OR SAYING THE WRONG THING OR SAYING THE WRONG THING THAT WOULD EMASCULATE YOU IN SOME WAY.

>> IS THERE A PARTICULAR AGE GROUP THAT YOU FOUND TO BE MOST IN DISTRESS?

>> YES.

I THINK WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT WAS THIS KIND OF MICRO GENERATION OF BOYS THAT WERE HITTING PUBERTY AS "ME TOO" HAPPENED AND THEN WENT THROUGH THE COVID PANDEMIC, WHICH OBVIOUSLY ACCELERATED A LOT OF THESE KINDS OF TRENDS.

BUT THEY WERE IN EVIDENCE BEFORE.

AND THAT SORT OF MICRO GENERATION IS NOW OF VOTING AGE.

THEY'RE OF COLLEGE AGE.

SO IF YOU WERE 11 WHEN "ME TOO" TOOK OFF, YOU'RE NOW 18.

AND I THINK THAT GENERATION, WE'RE SHOWING THAT THEY'RE MOVING TO THE RIGHT POLITICALLY.

THEY'RE BECOMING ISOLATED.

THEY'RE BECOMING RESENTFUL.

I THINK THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR PLACE IN THE WORLD.

THEY'RE DROPPING OUT OF COLLEGE OR NOT GOING TO COLLEGE IN THE SAME WAY THAT GIRLS ARE.

THERE'S THIS WHOLE PROBLEM WITH FAILURE TO LAUNCH, THAT THIS IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY SERIOUS.

YOU KNOW, WHILE KIND OF YOUNG WOMEN ARE DOING THINGS LIKE FINDING PARTNERS AND GOING TO COLLEGE AND LEAVING THEIR PARENTS' HOUSES, YOUNG MEN ARE INCREASINGLY BEING LEFT BEHIND.

SO IT WAS THAT GENERATION THAT I REALLY WANTED TO LOOK AT AND JUST SEE, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S IT LIKE TO GROW UP IN THIS MOMENT, YOU KNOW, THIS VERY COMPLEX AND VERY FRAUGHT CULTURAL MOMENT?

>> ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU MAKE IS THAT A LOT OF THESE CONSTRUCTS JUST DON'T MEAN ANYTHING TO KIDS THAT AGE.

>> RIGHT.

SO I THINK THIS IDEA OF PRIVILEGE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY REAL THING, AND WE NEED TO EDUCATE OUR BOYS IN THE HISTORY OF PATRIARCHY, THE HISTORY OF GENDERED VIOLENCE AND ALL OF THESE THINGS.

BUT THEY ARE CHILDREN.

THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

THEY DIDN'T DO THIS STUFF.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY LOOK AT THEIR FEMALE PEERS, THE CONCEPT OF PRIVILEGE DOESN'T REALLY MEAN SO MUCH TO THEM.

THEY'RE SORT OF LIKE, WHERE IS ALL THIS POWER WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE?

THIS IDEA THAT YOU NEED TO BE QUIET BECAUSE YOU'RE SO PRIVILEGED, AND THEY'RE LOOKING AT THEMSELVES.

THEY'RE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS.

THEY HAVE NO ECONOMIC CAPITAL.

IT DOESN'T REALLY MEAN SO MUCH TO THEM THAT SOMEBODY ON WALL STREET WHO IS MALE WILL GET A BETTER JOB THAN SOMEBODY WHO IS FEMALE ON WALL STREET.

IT'S JUST SO REMOTE TO THEM.

I THINK THOSE VERY BLUNT, VERY SORT OF BROAD BRUSH IDEAS OF LIKE PRIVILEGE AND POWER AND OPPRESSION DON'T NECESSARILY APPLY TO TEENAGERS IN QUITE THE SAME WAY.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A QUOTE THAT STOOD OUT TO US WHEN WE READ THE BOOK.

YOU WROTE THAT "FOR BOYS, VULNERABILITY AND PRIVILEGE COEXIST IN A COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP.

MASCULINE NORMS AND EXPECTATIONS CONFER COUNTLESS ADVANTAGES, BUT THEY ALSO BRING SIGNIFICANT HARM.

THE TWO COME TOGETHER IN MALE SOCIALIZATION TO CREATE A CONTRADICTORY AND STRANGELY DESTRUCTIVE COMBINATION OF INDULGENCE AND NEGLECT."

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

HOW DO WE SEE THAT?

>> YEAH.

SO I THINK THIS IS GOING BACK TO THE WHOLE THING ABOUT PRIVILEGE.

SO OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES TO BEING MALE IN THIS WORLD, AND WE KNOW THAT.

BUT THERE ARE REAL HARMS TO IT TOO.

SO THE SYSTEM OF PATRIARCHY THAT, YOU KNOW, TELLS WOMEN TO BEHAVE A CERTAIN WAY AND OPPRESSES WOMEN ALSO OPPRESSES MEN IN CERTAIN WAYS TOO AND CUTS THEM OFF FROM THEIR EMOTIONS, TELLS THEM THEY HAVE TO BE STRONG AND MASCULINE AND MAKES PEOPLE PROJECT MASCULINE QUALITIES ONTO BOYS RIGHT FROM BIRTH.

SO IN SOME WAYS, BOYS GET VERY INDULGED.

THERE'S ALL THIS RESEARCH THAT SHOWS THEY DO LESS CHORES THAN GIRLS AND THAT THEY GET PAID MORE FOR THEM AND ALL OF THESE THINGS.

SO PARENTS DO INDULGE BOYS IN SOME BAD BEHAVIOR.

THEY LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THINGS.

THEY SOMEHOW SORT OF GIVE THEM THIS IDEA THAT THEY'RE KIND OF SPECIAL AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO THESE DIFFICULT THINGS.

BUT THERE ARE ALSO WAYS THAT THEY'RE UNDER-CARED FOR.

THEY DON'T GET THAT ENGAGEMENT WITH EMOTIONS.

THEIR FEELINGS DON'T GET HEARD IN THE SAME WAY GIRLS' FEELINGS DO GET HEARD.

WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME LISTENING TO BOYS' AND MALE OPINIONS BUT A FAR LESS TIME LISTENING TO THEIR FEELINGS.

I THINK THIS SORT OF UNDER-NURTURE THING IS WHERE THE NEGLECT PART COMES IN.

THERE ARE VERY REAL HARMS TO THAT, AND WE SEE THAT WITH ADULT MEN.

WE SEE THAT THEY'RE LONELY.

WE SEE THAT THEY'RE DISCONNECTED.

THEY'RE DISCONNECTED FROM THEIR EMOTIONS.

THIS IS THE SAME SYSTEM.

IT IS COMPLEX.

IT'S NOT SIMPLE.

IT'S NOT LIKE BEING A MAN IS ALL BENEFIT AND NO DOWNSIDE.

THERE ARE VERY REAL HARMS BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM.

>> YOU POINT OUT THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE REALLY IS A DIFFERENCE NEUROLOGICALLY BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE INFANTS, HOW THEIR BRAINS DEVELOP, AND ALSO JUST THE IMPACT OF EXPOSURE TO STRESS AND NEGATIVE PARENTING, WHICH I THINK WAS A SHOCK TO ME.

WAS IT A SHOCK TO YOU?

>> IT WAS A REAL SHOCK TO ME BECAUSE WHEN YOU SORT OF LOOK AT THE SCIENCE OF SEX DIFFERENCES, AND PEOPLE CO-OPT THIS SCIENCE QUITE A LOT.

IT'S QUITE SKETCHY.

THERE'S THIS IDEA THAT BOYS WILL BE BOYS.

SO BOYS ARE RAMBUNCTIOUS.

THEY'RE TOUGH.

THEY'RE STURDY.

THEY'RE ANGRY.

THEY'RE BADLY BEHAVED.

BUT ACTUALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESEARCH, A BABY BOY IS BORN ABOUT A MONTH TO SIX WEEKS BEHIND A BABY GIRL IN TERMS OF RIGHT BRAIN DEVELOPMENT.

SO THAT'S THE PART THAT GOVERNS EMOTIONS AND ATTACHMENT AND EMOTIONAL REGULATION.

SO BECAUSE THEIR BRAINS ARE MORE IMMATURE, THEY'RE ACTUALLY MORE EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE AND SENSITIVE.

SO ALL OF THE KIND OF STEREOTYPES, YOU KNOW, REALLY GO AGAINST WHAT A BABY BOY ACTUALLY IS.

AND A BABY GIRL IS BORN MORE RESILIENT, MORE INDEPENDENT, MORE ABLE TO REGULATE HER EMOTIONS.

SO BECAUSE OF THAT BRAIN FRAGILITY, IT MEANS THAT ANY KIND OF ADVERSE CIRCUMSTANCES, SO, YOU KNOW, POVERTY OR NEGLECT OR POOR CIRCUMSTANCES HAS BEEN SHOWN TO HAVE A GREATER IMPACT ON A POPULATION OF BOYS THAN IT DOES ON GIRLS.

BUT BECAUSE OF OUR IDEAS OF MASCULINITY, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE THINK A BABY BOY IS, WE TEND TO TREAT THEM WITH LESS KIND OF NURTURE AND LESS OF THAT INTENSE EMOTIONAL CAREGIVING THAN WE DO WITH GIRLS.

SO IT BECOMES THIS DOUBLE WHAMMY.

THEY NEED MORE CARE, BUT THEY END UP GETTING LESS IN A SENSE.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE MASCULINIZED THEM.

THERE'S ALL THIS RESEARCH THAT SHOW THAT PARENTS USE A DIFFERENT VOCABULARY WHEN THEY TALK WITH GIRLS, THAT THEY USE MORE EMOTIONAL LANGUAGE.

THEY LISTEN TO THEIR FEELINGS MORE, WHEREAS WITH BOYS IT'S MORE OF THIS PHYSICAL ROUGH HOUSING AND WRESTLING TYPE PLAY.

SO BABY BOYS AND BOYS ALL THE WAY THROUGH CHILDHOOD REALLY KIND OF MISS OUT ON THIS EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT.

WE DON'T TEACH THEM THE SKILLS IN THAT WAY.

>> DO YOU THINK THIS IS A NEW FEELING?

>> THIS FEELING OF -- >> OF HAVING TO CONSTANTLY BE ON YOUR GUARD.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S NEW?

>> I THINK THAT IS AN OLD FEELING.

I THINK THAT COMES FROM VERY OLD SYSTEMS OF MASCULINITY.

BUT I THINK WHAT MAKES IT MORE ACUTE NOW, THERE ARE VARIOUS SORT OF CULTURAL FORCES THAT I THINK ARE MAKING IT HARDER TO BE A BOY NOW.

SO I THINK THAT THEY STILL HAVE THESE -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S OLD STORIES.

MEN ALWAYS HAD TO MAN UP AND BE TOUGH AND NOT BE VULNERABLE.

BUT I THINK THAT NOW THERE'S JUST SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF CULTURAL FORCES.

I THINK THERE'S THIS IDEA THAT IT'S TIME FOR THEM TO BE QUIET.

THEY'RE FEELING PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THEM AS IF THEY'RE TOXIC AND HARMFUL.

SINCE "ME TOO," QUITE RIGHTLY, THERE'S THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION ABOUT CONSENT, WHICH IS GREAT.

BUT I THINK IT MEANS THEY ALSO FEEL AT THE SAME TIME THAT THEY HAVE TO BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS, THAT THEY CAN NEVER OVERSTEP.

AT THE SAME TIME, THEY'RE KIND OF EXPECTED TO BE DOMINANT AGGRESSIVE AND MAKE THE FIRST MOVE AND BE, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF MASCULINE-APPEARING ONE WITH GIRLS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ALSO HAVE TO BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS AND TO NEVER OVERSTEP.

OTHERWISE, THEY'LL BE SEEN AS CREEPY.

I THINK A LOT OF THEM ARE JUST FEELING LIKE, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE.

I'D RATHER JUST BE ON MY OWN IN MY ROOM AND WATCH PORN BY MYSELF.

>> OH, GOSH.

WHAT REACTION STANDS OUT TO YOU?

>> I'VE BEEN REALLY SURPRISED BY ACTUALLY HOW MANY MEN HAVE GOT IN TOUCH WITH ME AND SAID, OH, I FEEL REALLY SEEN AND REALLY HEARD BY THIS.

AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S CALLED "BOYMOM," THAT IT WOULD APPEAL TO WOMEN.

AND LOTS AND LOTS OF WOMEN HAVE BEEN GETTING IN TOUCH WITH ME AS WELL.

I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE MEN SAY, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT MY CHILDHOOD WAS LIKE.

ALL THESE PRESSURES OF MASCULINITY.

I FEEL VERY SHUT DOWN.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE.

THANK YOU FOR SEEING THIS AND HEARING IT.

SO THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN MOSTLY EXTREMELY POSITIVE.

I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THAT THERE'S LIKE A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH SIDES-ISM IN THE SEND OF CENSURING BOYS AND MEN TAKES AWAY FROM THE WORK WE'RE DOING SUPPORT WOMEN AND GIRLS.

MY VIEW IS WE'RE ALL TRAPPED IN THIS SYSTEM TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, RAISING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY MEN AND BOYS BENEFITS EVERYBODY IN SOCIETY, YOU KNOW.

THIS IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.

>> GIVEN THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED WHAT A DEEP STEM THIS HAS, HOW DO WE GET OUT OF IT?

>> WE HAVE TO DO THINGS LIKE IN THE HOME AND IN THE WIDER CULTURE, YOU KNOW, THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT BOYS AND MEN.

I THINK IN THE HOME, IT'S REALLY ABOUT SHOWING BOYS THAT NURTURE AND EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT THEY NEED.

SO REALLY SORT OF NAMING THE PROBLEM IN TERMS OF THEY'RE EXCLUDED FROM THOSE EMOTIONAL ROLE MODELS, THERE THOSE KIND OF EMOTIONAL CONVERSATIONS, AND TRYING TO KIND OF CORRECT FOR THAT AND GIVE THEM THAT KIND OF NURTURE, TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT THEIR FEELINGS, TO LISTEN TO THEM, AND TO NOT JUST SEE THEM AS THESE LIKE TOUGH, UNCOMPLICATED, SORT OF -- YOU KNOW, AND I THINK WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE MALE EMOTIONS AND TO LISTEN TO THEM.

AND I THINK SIMILARLY IN THE WIDER CULTURE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BOYS AND MEN, RATHER THAN HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WHICH IS LIKE IT'S A GENDER WAR, TIME FOR MEN TO SHUT UP, I THINK WE NEED TO START LISTENING TO MEN'S FEELINGS AS WELL AND MAKING SPACE FOR THAT.

WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME LISTENING TO MEN'S OPINIONS BUT A LOT LESS TIME LISTENING TO THEIR FEELINGS.

>> HAS THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH YOUR BOYS CHANGED SINCE YOU STARTED DOING THIS WORK?

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT REALLY HAS.

IT'S SUBTLE.

IT'S NOT LIKE I'VE DONE THESE FIVE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

IT'S MORE OF A CHANGE IN MY ORIENTATION TOWARDS THEM AND OUR RELATIONSHIP.

SO I THINK IT'S HELPED ME TO SEE THEM BETTER AND TO SEE THEM AS THESE COMPLEX EMOTIONAL CREATURES RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S A STEREOTYPES.

BOYS ARE LIKE DOGS.

ALL THEY NEED IS FOOD AND EXERCISE AND DISCIPLINE.

AND ACTUALLY I THINK SEEING THEM AS THESE CREATURES THAT ARE VULNERABLE AND FRAGILE AND IN NEED OF MORE NURTURE RATHER THAN LESS HAS REALLY HELPED ME APPROACH THEM IN THAT WAY.

AND RATHER THAN TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, PUNISH THEM OR DISCIPLINE THEM OUT OF THEIR BAD BEHAVIOR, TO SEE THE KIND OF EMOTIONS DRIVING THEM AND TO TRY TO ENGAGE WITH THEM IN A MORE, YOU KNOW, NURTURING WAY.

>> IT DOES MAKE ME WONDER, THOUGH, AFTER A LONG PERIOD OF BASICALLY NOT PRESERVING ALL WOMEN'S SPACES, THINKING IT WAS LIKE RETROGRADE.

OH, NO, WE DON'T NEED WOMEN'S COLLEGES, YOU KNOW, THAT.

THEN WE BECOME MORE INTENTIONAL AS A SOCIETY ABOUT PRESERVING SORT OF ALL FEMALE SPACES OR A WOMAN'S SPACES OR ALL SPACES FOR PEOPLE WHO PRESENT AS WOMEN.

I HAVE TO WONDER AFTER DOING THIS WORK, WHETHER YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS THERE NEED TO BE MORE ALL-MALE SPACES.

>> THAT'S SUCH A GREAT QUESTION, AND I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN TALKING TO EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH BOYS.

THEY SAY THAT SORT OF BOYS GROUPS ARE REALLY HELPFUL FOR BOYS.

YOU KNOW, THIS FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN SPEAK FREELY, THAT THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO BE QUIET AND LET SOMEBODY ELSE SPEAK, BUT THEY CAN TALK ABOUT THEIR EMOTIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE LED BY REALLY GOOD FACILITATORS.

I THINK THOSE ALL-MALE SPACES ARE REALLY HELPFUL FOR BOYS AND MEN.

I THINK THEY HAVE TO BE DONE IN THE RIGHT WAY.

ALL-MALE SPACES CAN EASILY GO IN THE OTHER DIRECTION AND BE QUITE TOXIC AND AWFUL.

IN THE BOOK, I GO ONLINE AND LOOK AT SORT OF THE DARKER MOVEMENTS, AND I THINK THEY CAN GO IN A REALLY WORRYING DIRECTION.

BUT I THINK IN PERSON, ALL BOYS GROUPS CAN BE REALLY HELPFUL FOR BOYS.

>> RUTH WHIPPMAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.