July 18, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP REPRESENTS AMERICA'S LAST BEST HOPE TO RESTORE WHAT IF LOST MAY NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN.

>> THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION CEMENTS THE GOP IN TRUMP'S IMAGE, WHILE THE WALLS CLOSE IN FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO QUIT THE RACE.

FROM MILWAUKEE I'M JOINED BY KAREN FINNEY, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO HILLARY CLINTON AND FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN STAFFER MARC LOTTER.

>>> THEN -- ♪ GIRLS WANNA, GIRLS WANNA ♪ >> SUPERSTAR CYNDI LAUPER JOINS THE SHOW, WITH HER NEW FILM, HER NEW SHOW, AND HOW SHE KEEPS AMAZING US ALL, TIME AFTER TIME.

>>> AND -- >> MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA IS WHETHER YOU'RE WILLING TO SACRIFICE YOUR MORALS, ETHICS AND RULE OF LAW IN ORDER TO BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> AFTER A SPATE OF REPRIEVES, LEAH LITMAN TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW MAGA IS TRANSFORMING THE NATION'S JUDE DISH YEAR.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM AT WOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER GUILTY.

PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION WRAPS UP ITS FINAL DAY, IT'S FEELING LIKE A GRAND OLE PARTY IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE, A JUBILANT MOOD SPREADING THROUGHOUT THE GOP AS THEY RALLY BEHIND PRESIDENT TRUMP AFTER HE SURVIVES AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.

IT'S VERY DIFFERENT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHERE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS FACING GROWING PRESSURE TO DROP OUT OF THE RACE AS CONCERNS AROUND HIS HEALTH AND AGE PERSIST.

PARTY GRANDEES LIKE NANCY PELOSI, CHUCK SCHUMER, HAKEE JEFFRIES ALL WARNING BIDEN THE POLLS DO NOT LOOK GOOD.

WE'RE NOW ALL TOO AWARE THAT A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN A WEEK.

SO WHAT COULD HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER?

I SPOKE TO FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR TRUMP'S 2020 CAMPAIGN MARC LOTTER AND KAREN FINNEY, WHO WAS A SENIOR ADVISER FOR HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 PRESIDENTIAL BID.

THEY JOIN ME FROM THE MILWAUKEE CONVENTION CENTER.

MARC LOTTER AND KAREN FINNEY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM MILWAUKEE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> SO I AM GOING TO ASK YOU HOW IT LOOKS TO YOU, THERE YOU ARE, DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN, STANDING NEXT TO EACH OTHER.

HOW IS THAT UNITY THING WORKING OUT FOR ALL OF YOU?

>> I THINK IT'S -- WELL, TO ME, I THINK IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

WE'VE SEEN EFFORTS CERTAINLY THIS WEEK.

I'LL SAY IT.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE HAD A GOOD CONVENTION.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE HEARD SOME JABS AND SOME HARSHER LANGUAGE HERE AND THERE.

BUT I THINK IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT WE HEAR THIS WEEK IN MILWAUKEE.

IT IS IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS FORWARD.

WE'VE GOT JULY.

WE'VE GOT QUITE A WHILE BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION.

LET'S SEE IF THIS HOLDS.

>> I MEAN, I THINK OBVIOUSLY, HOPEFULLY THE THEME CONTINUES.

WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE POLICY, THE ECONOMY, IMMIGRATION, THE FOREIGN POLICY, THE WARS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND EUROPE, AND IF WE CAN KEEP IT FOCUSED ON THE POLICY AND DISAGREE WHERE WE DISAGREE, I THINK THEN EVERYONE WILL BE BETTER FOR IT.

>> WELL, I'M MOST DEFINITELY GETTING TO THE POLICY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO ON THIS SHOW.

BUT FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU, DEFINITELY KAREN, LOOK, THIS WEEKENDS WITH THE WALLS REALLY CLOSING IN ON PRESIDENT BIDEN.

NOT ONLY DOES HE HAVE COVID ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT IT'S BECOMING MORE AND MORE PUBLIC, MORE AND MORE SENIOR THE INTERNAL DEMOCRATIC OFFICIALS COUPLED WITH, YOU KNOW, POLLS FROM GRASSROOTS DEMOCRATS THAT BIDEN WON'T MAKE IT IN TERMS OF WINNING IN NOVEMBER.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, KAREN, ABOUT THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION NOW AROUND THIS?

>> LOOK, CHRISTIANE, THERE IS A COUPLE OF THINGS I THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND.

AND THING IS FACTORING INTO THE BIDEN TEAMS AS THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS.

NUMBER ONE, 14 MILLION PEOPLE TURNED OUT IN OUR PRIMARIES, AND JOE BIDEN EARNED 3900 DELEGATES, THEY'RE PLEDGED DELEGATES.

SO AS LONG AS THOSE DELEGATES ARE HOLDING FIRM, THE PRESIDENT HAS THE NOMINATION.

SO I THINK THE QUESTION IS ARE THOSE DELEGATES GOING TO HOLD FIRM?

AND I WOULD ALSO JUST ADD WE'VE HEARD A LOT FROM SOME PUBLICLY SOME KIND OF PRIVATELY, BUT LEAKING OUT CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN HAD WITH THE PRESIDENT AND PEOPLE VOICING THEIR CONCERNS, BUT WE'VE ALSO SEEN GROUPS REALLY RALLY AROUND THE PRESIDENT.

JUST THIS WEEK, HE VISITED THE UNIDOS CONFERENCE IN LAS VEGAS AS WELL AS THE NAACP.

SO THERE ARE SOME LARGE GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE STILL STANDING WITH HIM.

SO I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THE TEAM IS GOING TO HAVE TO CONTINUE TO KIND OF LOOK AT THE DATA.

I HOPE THEY'RE LOOKING AT ALL OF THE DATA AND THEY'RE ABLE TO MAKE A DECISION ABOUT WHERE HE GOES NEXT.

>> AND FOR YOU, MARC LOTTER, AND FOR TEAM GOP, THIS MUST BE MUSIC TO ALL OF YOUR EARS.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU'VE GOT THIS IMPLOSION AT THE TOP OF THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET.

YOU'VE GOT A SENSE OF CHAOS AND DRIFT.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND, WELL, YOU DESCRIBE IT.

YOU'VE GOT A SENSE OF CEMENTING THE GOP AS TRUMP'S PARTY, THE DELIVERANCE OF TRUMP FROM THE ASSASSIN'S BULLET, ET CETERA.

GIVE ME THE MOOD AMONGST YOUR PARTY AT THE END OF THIS WEEK.

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A LOT OF MOMENTUM.

THERE IS A LOT OF RECOGNITION THAT WE STILL HAVE FOUR MONTHS TO GO UNTIL ELECTION DAY.

A LOT OF THINGS CAN AND WILL CHANGE.

THE MAP, THE POLLS ALL LOOK VERY GOOD RIGHT NOW FOR DONALD TRUMP AND SENATOR J.D.

VANCE.

BUT WE'VE GOT TO RUN THROUGH THE TAPE, AS THEY LIKE TO SAY.

WHEN IT COMES TO OBVIOUSLY WHETHER IT'S JOE BIDEN OR SOMEONE ELSE ON THE TOP OF THE TICKET, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE KEEPING A VERY CLOSE EYE ON IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS LIKE TO SAY THAT THEY ARE THE DEFENDERS OF DEMOCRACY, AND YET THERE REALLY WOULD NOT BE ANYTHING MORE UNDEMOCRATIC THAN SAYING WE'RE GOING DITCH THE WILL OF OUR VOTERS BECAUSE IT'S POLITICALLY INCONVENIENT RIGHT NOW.

AND SO WHETHER IT'S JOE BIDEN, KAMALA HARRIS, GRETCHEN WHITMER, GAVIN NEWSOM, WE'RE ALSO FOCUSED ON THE POLICY SIDE OF IT.

NONE OF THOSE CANDIDATES ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF OUR COUNTRY.

THEY'RE GOING TO STICK WITH THE SAME POLICIES, WHETHER IT'S ON IMMIGRATION, WHETHER IT'S ON TAXATION, ENERGY PRICES.

SO REALLY, THE CAMPAIGN IS THE SAME FROM OUR STANDPOINT.

WE JUST HAVE TO CHANGE THE NAME OF THE PERSON OR MAY BE CHANGING THE PERSON WHO WE'RE RUNNING AGAINST.

>> SO KAREN -- >> IF I MAY.

>> PLEASE.

TELL ME ABOUT THE POLICY AS WELL.

OBVIOUSLY MARC TALKS A GOOD GAME.

BUT WE HEAR FROM THE REPUBLICANS THAT THEY REALLY WANT IT TO BE AGAINST BIDEN.

AND ON THE POLICY ISSUES, ON IMMIGRATION, ON THE ECONOMY, ET CETERA, WHAT WOULD YOUR PITCH BE AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT JOE BIDEN, THE GRASSROOTS WORK HAS CONTINUED.

SO IN TERMS OF THE ISSUE LANDSCAPE, THINGS HAVE REALLY NOT CHANGED AS MUCH IN TERMS OF THE POLICIES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LIVE IN A STATE WHERE YOU ARE AFRAID OF LOSING YOUR RIGHT TO ACCESS IVF OR CONTRACEPTION OR ABORTION, THAT HAS NOT CHANGED, AND THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT DEMOCRATS ARE FIGHTING FOR AND WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE FIGHTING FOR.

SO I THINK THE ISSUE IS HERE WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE CHANGE, WHETHER IT IS -- WE DON'T BELIEVE IN TRICKLE-DOWN ECONOMICS, WHETHER IT IS HELPING COLLEGE KIDS PAY FOR THEIR STUDENT LOANS.

THERE IS A WHOLE RANGE OF ISSUES WHERE WE HAVE JUST VERY DIFFERENT IDEAS.

AND I ALWAYS LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE, THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE KNOCKING ON DOORS AND HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH VOTERS, THOSE HAVE NOT STOPPED.

SO THE ISSUE CONVERSATION CONTINUES AND WILL CONTINUE.

AND AS WE SORT OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET, WE'RE ALSO REALLY TALKING ABOUT VERY FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES FOR THE DIRECTION OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> SO MARC, LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE ONE OF THE MAIN ISSUES FOR MANY IN AMERICA, WOMEN AND THE ROLLBACK OF ROE V. WADE, AND IT HASN'T BEEN A WINNING ISSUE FOR REPUBLICANS IN PREVIOUS MIDTERM AND OTHER ELECTIONS.

AND SENATOR VANCE IS ABSOLUTELY AGAINST ABORTION, CALLS IT MURDER, ARGUED AGAINST THE NEED PROMOTED THE BAN AT 15 WEEKS, AND QUESTIONED THE PREVALENCE OF DIVORCE, SUGGESTED WOMEN SHOULD STAY IN VIOLENT MARRIAGES EVEN.

I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS AND TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE ISSUE OF WINNING WOMEN.

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT TRICKS THAT I THINK THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION PULLED ON THE AMERICAN POPULACE, WHICH IS THE IDEA THAT WELL, OKAY, THESE MARRIAGES WERE FUNDAMENTALLY -- THEY WERE MAYBE EVEN VIOLENT, BUT CERTAINLY THEY WERE UNHAPPY.

AND SO GETTING RID OF THEM AND MAKING IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO SHIFT SPOUSES LIKE THEY CHANGE THEIR UNDERWEAR, THAT'S GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPIER IN THE LONG-TERM.

AND MAYBE IT WORKED FOR THE MOMS AND DADS, THOUGH I'M SKEPTICAL.

BUT IT REALLY DIDN'T WORK OUT FOR THE KIDS OF THOSE MARRIAGES.

>> SO MARC, TALK TO US ABOUT THAT.

THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY BEFORE HE WAS PICKED AS VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

BUT TRUMP ALSO REALIZES NOW THAT THE ABORTION BAN AND THE ROE V. WADE REVERSAL THAT HE CAMPAIGNED FOR AND NOMINATED JUDGES TO REVERSE IS COMING BACK TO HAUNT HIM POLITICALLY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS TICKET IS GOING TO DO TO ATTRACT WOMEN?

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR HE WOULD NOT SIGN A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN.

ALSO, THERE IS NO WAY A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN IS EVER GOING TO GET PASSED BY CONGRESS.

THERE JUST AREN'T THE VOTES ON EITHER SIDE TO GET THEIR ABORTION WISHES PASSED INTO LAW.

SO THAT'S WHY IT'S GOING TO THE PEOPLE'S ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES IN THE STATES.

AND THE STATES, THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES CAN MAKE THEIR DECISIONS IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY THINK.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS ALSO BEEN VERY CLEAR HE SUPPORTS IVF AND THE EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE, INCEST AND THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER.

BUT I THINK WHILE THE DEMOCRATS ALL WANT TO FOCUS ONLY ON JUST THIS ONE ISSUE, I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE PRESIDENT, SENATOR VANCE, AND REPUBLICANS ALSO TALK ABOUT IS A LOT OF MOTHERS, A LOT OF FAMILIES OUT THERE STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR GROCERY, STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR GAS.

THEY'RE WORRIED THAT THEIR YOUNG DAUGHTERS OR THEMSELVES MIGHT BE THE VICTIMS OF CRIME BASED ON ALL OF THE 12 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE BEEN LET INTO THIS COUNTRY UNDER JOE BIDEN.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES I THINK THAT ARE AT PLAY.

YES, THERE ARE SINGLE ISSUE VOTERS ON THE ISSUE OF ABORTION, BOTH ON THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT.

BUT I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY IT'S ONE OF THEIR ISSUES, MAY NOT BE THEIR ONLY ISSUE.

AND RIGHT NOW THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE.

>> KAREN, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

BECAUSE KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT, HAS BEEN THE ADMINISTRATION'S CRUSADE IS THE WRONG WORD, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

SHE HAS GONE OUT AND FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT FOR WOMEN.

AND REMEMBERING THAT TRUMP HIMSELF WAS FOUND GUILTY IN A CIVIL CASE FOR SEXUAL ABUSE AND THE REST OF IT.

DO YOU THINK THE REPUBLICANS CAN GET OVER THAT AS WELL AS ROE V. WADE?

DO YOU THINK IT'S STILL AN ISSUE?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY IS STILL AN ISSUE.

AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

BECAUSE FOR WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY, AND FOR PARTICULARLY YOUNG VOTERS WE SEE THIS, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ACCESS TO A PROCEDURE.

IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT BODILY AUTONOMY.

I LIKE TO SAY KRAGH, CHRISTIANE, WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY IF WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS MEN.

AND IF WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE CRITICAL DECISIONS ABOUT OUR BODY, THEN WE'RE NOT THE SAME.

I CRINGE A LITTLE BIT AT THE STATES' RIGHTS SORT OF ARGUMENT BECAUSE IT HAS SUCH AN UGLY HISTORY IN OUR COUNTRY.

BUT THINK ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THE STATES FOR WOMEN.

WE'RE SEEING WOMEN AND DOCTORS CRIMINALIZED.

WE'RE SEEING WOMEN LOSE THEIR LIVES BECAUSE OF CRUEL AND EXTREME PRACTICES.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT PROJECT 2025 THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE SO ANXIOUS ABOUT IS THAT SO MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE IN THAT POLICY HANDBOOK, IF YOU WILL, ARE ALREADY ATTEMPTED TO BE IMPLEMENTED IN THE STATES LIKE CUTTING OFF VARIOUS FORMS OF CONTRACEPTION.

THERE IS A REAL CONCERN SOME OF THESE POLICY, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE PROCEDURE ITSELF, IT'S ABOUT WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT VALUE TO WOMEN.

I'LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

EQUAL PAY FOR WOMEN.

THE CRITICISM THAT WE'RE HEARING FROM SOME CONSERVATIVE CIRCLES ABOUT THE WOMEN SECRET SERVICE MEMBERS WHO WERE PART OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S DETAIL.

SOME ARE SAYING, WELL, THAT'S DEI, AND THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE WOMEN.

THEY'RE NOT STRONG ENOUGH.

SO, AGAIN, IT'S ALSO HOW YOU TALK ABOUT WOMEN, HOW YOU RESPECT WOMEN.

AND I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT SOMETHING ON IMMIGRATION.

WE'VE HAD 12 MILLION HERE ILLEGALLY FOR DECADES.

AND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AGAIN, TWO VERY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO SECURING THE BORDER, WHICH THE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS, AND THOSE CROSSINGS HAVE GONE WAY DOWN.

BUT ALSO, HOW DO WE HAVE A HUMANE POLICY IN TERMS OF HOW DO WE HAVE PEOPLE RETURN TO THEIR COUNTRIES WHERE THAT'S APPROPRIATE, NOT AS WE SAW DURING THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION THIS WEEK WITH SIGNS TO JUST THROW PEOPLE OUT, THIS ROUNDING PEOPLE UP IN MASS DEPORTATIONS.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT WOULD REALLY LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF HAVING DEPORTATION CENTER, SEPARATING CHILDREN AND FAMILIES, NOT TO MENTION THE ECONOMIC IMPACT THAT THAT WOULD HAVE ON THE AMERICAN ECONOMY IF ALL THOSE WORKERS WHO ARE WORKING FOR SUBSTANDARD WAGES, BY THE WAY, WOULD BE ALL OF THE SUDDEN GONE.

>> SO I WANT TO ALSO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY AND DEMOCRACY AT HOME.

DO YOU THINK -- I MEAN, CHRIS SUNUNU, THE GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHO DIDN'T WANT TRUMP TO BE THE CANDIDATE, WORKED VERY HARD FOR NIKKI HALEY, NOW IS BACKING TRUMP, BASICALLY TOLD NEWS AN INTERVIEW THAT JANUARY 6th SHOULD NOT BE A DISQUALIFIER FOR THIS KIND OF HIGH OFFICE.

MARC AND KAREN, CAN YOU COMMENT ON THAT?

BECAUSE I MEAN, SERIOUSLY.

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th WAS TERRIFYING, AND IT'S STILL -- THOSE IMAGES ARE SEARED INTO THE MINDS OF AMERICANS AND A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT FIND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ATTACKED OUR CAPITOL, WE DON'T CALL THEM HEROES.

WE DO THINK THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, JUST AS EVERYONE SHOULD.

THAT BEING SAID, I'VE TRAVELED AROUND THE COUNTRY, AROUND THE WORLD IN THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS.

I WAS JUST IN ISRAEL A FEW WEEKS AGO.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR.

WE HEARD SOME OF THIS COMING OUT OF THE NATO CONFERENCE.

WORLD LEADERS ARE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT THE IDEA OF DONALD TRUMP RETURNING TO THE PRESIDENCY.

THEY'RE ANXIOUS ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS IN TERMS OF AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD, THE NATURE OF RELATIONSHIPS, THE FACT THAT HE HAS PRAISED DICTATORS LIKE PUTIN AND WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF A REALIGNMENT OF FORCES.

SO I THINK THERE ARE VERY REAL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT A TRUMP PRESIDENCY WOULD MEAN FOR AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY BASED ON JOE BIDEN.

AND THE OTHER THING, CHRISTIANE, I JUST WANT TO MENTION, WE TALK ABOUT PROJECT 2025, BUT WE DON'T JUST HAVE THAT BLUEPRINT TO LOOK AT.

WE HAVE THE RECORD OF DONALD TRUMP FROM HIS FOUR YEARS IN OFFICE.

AND WE KNOW HOW HE TREATED OUR ALLIES, AND WE KNOW WHY THEY HAVE REAL CONCERNS.

>> MARC, LET ME PUT THAT TO YOU -- >> I THINK IT COMES -- >> SORRY, HAVE I ONE MORE QUESTION I CAN ASK, AND IT'S A FOLLOW-UP ON THIS.

J.D.

VANCE, WHO IS THE MOST ANTI-UKRAINE AND MOST ISOLATIONIST SENATOR IN CONGRESS SPECIFICALLY STAYED AWAY FROM THAT STUFF, I BELIEVE IN HIS SPEECH.

HOWEVER, TODAY, THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, SERGEY LAVROV, HAS DECIDED TO RAISE THE CHOICE OF J.D.

VANCE.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> Translator: HE IS IN FAVOR OF PEACE, IN FAVOR OF ENDING THE ASSISTANCE THAT'S BEING PROVIDED, AND WE CAN ONLY WELCOME THAT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO STOP PUMPING UKRAINE FULL OF WEAPONS, AND THEN THE WAR WILL END.

>> WELL, THE WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING PUMPED INTO AND AGAINST UKRAINE ARE RUSSIAN WEAPONS.

BUT BE THAT AS IT MAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IF IT GETS IN, WILL DO FOR THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE AND THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, KNOWING THAT THE MAJORITY OF CONGRESS BELIEVES IN DEFENDING AND SUPPLYING UKRAINE, AS DO A WORKING MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE STILL?

>> AND OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT, NOR DO I SPEAK FOR HIS CAMPAIGN.

BUT HE HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT HE THINKS THAT BOTH SIDES NEED TO COME TOGETHER AND START TALKING.

EVERY WAR IN HISTORY HAS ENDED AT A NEGOTIATION TABLE, EVEN THOSE THAT ENDED WITH UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

SO YOU'VE GOT TO GET THE TWO SIDES TALKING.

WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET THE KILLING TO STOP, WHICH IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT.

AND THE FACT THAT HE HOLDS SO MUCH LEVERAGE, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HOLDS SO MUCH LEVERAGE IN TERMS OF FORCING WHETHER IT'S UKRAINE AND/OR RUSSIA TO COME TO THE TABLE, AND LET'S FIGURE OUT A WAY TO STOP THE VIOLENCE, STOP THE DEATH ON THIS ISSUE IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE WORLD SHOULD BE CHEERING.

WE SHOULD BE CHEERING FOR PEACE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU WOULD SEE FROM DONALD TRUMP.

AND I'LL LEAVE THE DETAILS OF HOW HE WOULD DO THAT OBVIOUSLY UP TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

>> I CAN'T LEAVE YOU WITHOUT QUESTIONING UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE AS A CHOICE FOR UKRAINE, BOTH OF YOU?

>> I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT AS AN OPTION IN THE FUTURE.

I'M SAYING THAT EVEN PAST WARS THAT WERE DECIDED UNDER UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER, THERE WAS ALSO NEGOTIATION IN HISTORY AT THAT TIME.

>> AND I WOULD JUST OFFER THAT WHAT WE HEAR FROM RUSSIA IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATION IS REALLY CODE FOR HAVING UKRAINE GIVE UP LAND AND GIVE UP PART OF ITS SOVEREIGNTY.

AND WE ABSOLUTELY CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT PUTIN WILL STOP AT UKRAINE.

HE WILL CONTINUE HIS MARCH THROUGH TO EUROPE.

>> MARC LOTTER, KAREN FINNEY, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM MILWAUKEE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW FROM THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS TO A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF PARTY, THE ONE-WOMAN CHARISMA BOMB THAT IS CYNDI LAUPER, LAUNCHING INTO MUSICAL HISTORY WITH HER DEBUT ALBUM "SHE'S SO UNUSUAL" BACK IN 1983.

LAUPER QUICKLY BECAME A STAR, AND JUST AS QUICKLY USED HER VOICE FOR ACTIVISM, SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT SEXISM AND THE AIDS CRISIS AT A TIME WHEN NEITHER ISSUE WAS POPULAR.

NOW PREPARING FOR RETIREMENT WITH A FAREWELL TOUR, AND WITH A NEW DOCUMENTARY STREAMING ON PARAMOUNT PLUS CALLED "LET THE CANARY SING," IT IS CLEAR HER VOICE IS JUST AS LOUD AS EVER.

>> EVERYONE ALWAYS SAID WHAT WILL YOU DO IF YOU FAIL?

AND ALL OF THE SUDDEN WE ALL HEARD IT.

♪♪♪ >> WE WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL.

>> SHE WOULD MOUTH OFF, AND SHE JUST WASN'T GOING TO TAKE IT FROM PEOPLE, PERIOD.

>> IT REALLY BUILT UP HOW STUBBORN I COULD BE.

>> AND SHE JOINED ME FROM NEW YORK WITH MORE ABOUT WHAT MAKES HERETIC.

-- HER TICK.

CYNDI LAUPER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI.

I'M A BIG FAN.

I WATCH YOU ON PBS.

>> OH, THAT'S GREAT, GREAT.

AND I'M A BIG FAN TOO.

I KNOW YOU HAD A FABULOUS CONCERT HERE IN LONDON, AND YOU'RE GETTING READY FOR A FAREWELL TOUR AND YOU HAVE THIS NEW DOCUMENTARY, "LET THE CANARY SING."

YOU HAVE SOME HAVE CALLED YOU AN OVERNIGHT SENSATION.

I KNOW, THOUGH, FROM THE FILM THAT IT TOOK YOU 15 YEARS TO BECOME AN OVERNIGHT SENSATION.

MORE?

MORE THAN THAT?

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE, NOT TRUE.

THAT'S MY -- THAT'S MY VOCAL TEACHER.

SHE SAYS THAT.

BUT THE TRUTH IS IT TOOK TEN YEARS.

>> TEN.

OKAY.

TEN.

>> BECAUSE I STARTED -- OR NINE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BILLIE HOLIDAY ALWAYS SAID "NEVER LET THE TRUTH GET IN THE WAY OF A GOD STORY".

>> CYNDI LAUPER, THE EDITORS LEFT IT IN, SO I'M GOING TO GO FOR THAT.

BUT TEN YEARSES S GOOD AS WELL.

BUT PATTI LaBELLE, WHO YOU SANG WITH, BASICALLY SAYS "CYNDI DOES WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO."

AND IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY FOR A WOMAN IN ANY BUSINESS, MUCH LESS IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS.

HOW DID YOU GET TO BE THAT PERSON?

WERE YOU ALWAYS THE PERSON WHO GOT TO DO WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO?

OR WAS THAT A STRUGGLE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T LIKE -- IT WAS LIKE HI, WHAT'S YOUR NAME?

SURE, YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

BUT, NO.

I HAD TO, YOU KNOW -- I DIDN'T TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY THAT CAME MY WAY, BECAUSE IT WASN'T AN OPPORTUNITY TO ME.

I SING BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL FREE, AND I DIDN'T FEEL FREE IF I HAD TO STAND AND SING TO SOMEONE ELSE'S BEAT, SOMEONE ELSE'S RHYTHM, SOMEONE ELSE'S SPEECH, SOMEONE ELSE, SOMEONE ELSE, SOMEONE ELSE ALL THE TIME.

THAT'S NOT WHO I AM.

AND THAT'S NOT WHY I SING, OR EVEN WOULD WORK SO HARD TO BE ABLE TO SING, BECAUSE MY WHOLE CAREER, INCLUDING THE BEGINNING, I HAD DOCTORS AND PEOPLE TELLING ME, WELL, YOU'LL PROBABLY NEVER SING AGAIN, AND MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TO THE SOFTER MUSIC, BECAUSE YOU'RE TOO SMALL.

YOU'RE WOMAN.

YOU'RE WHITE.

THESE THINGS NOT GOING TO WORK FOR YOU.

AND SO I JUST HAD TO LEARN AS MUCH AS I COULD.

AND I WANTED TO MAKE MUSIC THAT WAS INCLUSIVE.

I WANTED TO MAKE COLLABORATIONS WITH THE PEOPLE THAT I LOVED.

AND WHEN I WAS IN SITUATIONS WHERE IT WAS A COMPROMISE, IT ALSO GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN ABOUT HOW I COULD MAKE THAT MY OWN TOO.

>> FAMOUSLY, YOU MADE "GIRLS JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN" YOURS OUT OF SOMEBODY ELSE'S, BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN BY A GUY CALLED ROBERT HAZZARD.

HE WROTE THE ORIGINAL.

ONCE WE PLAY THE SCRIPT, EXPLAIN WHAT THE ORIGINAL MEANT, AND HOW YOU CHANGED IT.

♪♪♪ CALL YOU IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, PAPA DEAR, YOU'RE THE FORTUNATE ONE, GIRLS JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN, GIRLS JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪ THE PHONE RINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, MY FATHER YELLS WHAT YOU GOING TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE ♪ ♪ OH DADDY DEAR YOU KNOW YOU'RE STILL NUMBER ONE, BUT GIRLS, THEY WANT TO HAVE FUN ♪ ♪ OH GIRLS JUST WANT TO HAVE, THAT'S ALL THEY REALLY WANT, HAVE FUN ♪ >> FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS -- ROBERT HAZZARD WAS HAVING SUCCESS IN PHILLY.

HE HAD THIS REALLY COOL SONG "ESCALATOR OF LIFE."

AND IT WAS KIND OF BOWIESQUE, AND I KNOW, LOOK, EVERYBODY I KNOW IS A HUGE FAN OF BOWIE.

I GREW UP LISTENING TO HIM.

I ALWAYS LOVED HIM.

SO I THOUGHT WOW, THAT'S SO COOL.

AND THE GIRLS JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN THING, IT WAS WRITTEN BY A GUY, SO OF COURSE IT'S A GUY'S APPROACH.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT THE HECK I WAS SUPPOSED TO DO AT FIRST, YOU KNOW.

I WAS SINGING THAT, AND I SAID WELL, LISTEN, THIS PART WON'T WORK BECAUSE HOW IS THAT GOING TO WORK WITH ME?

AND THIS PART, MEH, YOU KNOW.

AND THEY SAID WELL, YOU COULD CHANGE IT, MAKE IT YOUR OWN, WHICH IS WHAT WE WOUND UP DOING TO A LOT OF THE SONGS ON THAT ALBUM TO CREATE A SOUND, A SOUND THAT UNIQUELY OUR OWN.

EVERYTHING YOU WOUND UP DOING, OR ME, IT BECOMES A COLLABORATIVE.

IT'S AN ARTIST COLLABORATIVE, BECAUSE YOU'RE WORKING WITH PEOPLE AND THE BIGGEST THING I HAD TO LEARN IS HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE, HOW TO SAY THINGS SO THAT YOU DON'T FREAK THEM OUT.

YOU GET THEM INSPIRED.

AND SO I FIGURED OUT A WAY BY LISTENING TO WHAT THEY -- ROB AND ERIC DID AND WHAT RICK DID AND WHAT RICK HAD ALL THESE SONGS.

AND AS THEY CAME TOGETHER, THERE WERE GREAT THINGS HAPPENING.

ON THE STREET, THE SOUND OF THE DRUM, THE SOUND OF THE GATED SNARE THAT WAS SO BIG IN THE '80s.

AND IN THE BEGINNING, WHEN IT FIRST CAME OVER AND STARTED FROM THE STREET, AND I WANTED TO HAVE THAT PART OF THE SOUND, BECAUSE I GUESS IN THE END, I FIGURE MUSIC IS A LOT LIKE COOKING.

RIGHT?

IT'S A LOT OF INGREDIENTS THAT YOU GOT TO PUT IN.

AND I JUST WANTED IT TO SOUND LIKE NEW YORK, WHO I WAS.

AND THEY KEPT SAYING YOU GOT TO MAKE A GIRLS ANTHEM.

BUT THEY DIDN'T REALIZE WHO THEY WERE TALKING TO, BECAUSE I BURNT MY TRAINING BRA AT THE FIRST DEMONSTRATION BY THE ALICE IN WONDERLAND STATUE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS, YOU KNOW.

REMEMBER THAT?

>> I DO, I DO.

AND INTERESTINGLY, AFTER THIS SONG CAME OUT, YOU BECAME ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE ON SORT OF WOMEN OF THE YEAR ON ONE OF THE MAGAZINES.

GLORIA STEINEM CALLED YOU A FEMINIST ICON.

ALL OF THIS CAME AFTER YOUR LIFE WAS DEFINITELY NOT FUN, FROM WHAT I GATHER FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY.

YOU TALK ABOUT A VERY DIFFICULT CHILDHOOD.

YOU LOVED YOUR MOTHER.

YOUR MOTHER WAS FANTASTIC.

YOU LOVE YOUR SISTER, SHE WAS FANTASTIC.

BUT YOU HAD REAL PROBLEMS WITH THE MEN IN THE HOUSEHOLD.

AND YOU HAD TO LEAVE HOME.

>> WELL, I LOST MY BABY BROTHER.

I LOVED MY BABY BROTHER.

>> AND YOUR BABY BROTHER, WHO IS IN THE DARK.

>> WHEN HE CAME IN, THE POOR THING, HE STILL TALKS TO ME TOO.

BUT WHEN I SAW HIM, AND I WAS 5 AND HE WAS AN INFANT, I JUST SAW A BIG BABY DOLL COMING IN.

I MUST HAVE DROPPED HIM A FEW TIMES BECAUSE I TRIED TO CARRY HIM AND CHANGE HIS DIAPERS.

ALMOST KILLED HIM A FEW TIMES.

BUT HE STILL TALKS TO ME.

SO THAT'S GOOD.

BUT, YEAH, IT WAS -- LOOK, IT'S -- I CAME FROM AN IMMIGRANT FAMILY.

I AM THE SECOND GENERATION.

MY MOTHER WAS THE FIRST.

AMERICAN GENERATION.

AND IT WAS VERY AND THE FOR THEM TO ASSIMILATE, YOU KNOW, AND NOT -- I NEVER LEARNED ITALIAN.

AND THEN WHEN I GOT OLD.

>> THEY SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU LEARN ITALIAN?

WELL.

IT WAS -- IT WAS A SIT SICILIAN HOUSEHOLD, AND, YOU KNOW, AS YOU LEARN HISTORY, YOU UNDERSTAND CULTURES.

AND THE CULTURE WAS NOT EXACTLY PROMOTING WOMEN.

AND THEN OF COURSE THEY PUT YOU IN A KASTELIC SCHOOL, AGAIN.

NOT EXACTLY PROMOTING WOMEN.

AND THEN YOU LEARN ABOUT LAWS.

NOT EXACTLY PROMOTING WOMEN.

SO I WATCHED MY MOM AND THE WOMEN BECAUSE I WAS A FEMALE CHILD, OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO NOTICE, THE CIVIL RIGHTS THING.

THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A LOT OF RIGHTS.

IN FACT, IT'S ONLY 50 YEARS NOW THAT WE WERE ALLOWED TO HAVE OUR OWN CREDIT CARD AND BANK ACCOUNT WITHOUT YOUR FATHER OR YOUR HUSBAND.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, I KNOW THAT YOU REMEMBER, AND OF COURSE YOU KNOW YOUR HISTORY.

I WANTED TO BE AN ARTIST.

I DIDN'T WANT TO COOK AND CLEAN.

AND THAT'S WHAT THEY TOLD ME I HAD TO DO ALL MY LIFE.

I MEAN YOU DO DO THAT, BUT GOODNESS SAKES.

>> AND BOY DID YOU BECOME AN ARTIST, AND YOU DEFIED ALL THOSE EXPECTATIONS.

AND SOME TIME AFTER YOUR FIRST ALBUM, YOU CAME UP WITH "TRUE COLORS."

AND I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF THE SONG AND THEN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT.

♪ AND I SEE YOUR TRUE COLORS SHINING THROUGH, I SEE YOUR TRUE COLORS, AND THAT'S WHY I LOVE YOU ♪ ♪ SO DON'T BE AFRAID ♪ >> YOU KNOW, COLOR WAS VERY MUCH ASSOCIATED WITH THE LGBTQ, WITH THE QUEER COMMUNITY, AND THAT YOU WERE INCREDIBLY SUPPORTIVE.

TELL ME ABOUT "TRUE COLORS" BECAUSE IT WAS RELEASED AT THE HEIGHT OF THE AIDS CRISIS, AND ONE OF YOUR CLOSE, CLOSE FRIENDS SADLY DIED OF IT.

>> YES.

AND WE WEREN'T -- YOU KNOW, IT'S A REALLY ODD TIME THEN.

THE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME DID NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS PANDEMIC, EPIDEMIC, AND THEY JUST CALLED IT THE GAY DISEASE, WHICH IT CLEARLY IT AFFECTED THE GAY COMMUNITY.

BUT ANYBODY CAN GET AIDS.

AND I -- I JUST YOU KNOW, I HAD A CLOSE, CLOSE FRIEND, AND HE WAS SICK.

AND I -- IT'S FUNNY.

HE ASKED ME TO WRITE A SONG FOR HIM, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE DIONNE WARWICK DID THAT, "THAT'S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR."

DIONNE WARWICK, ELTON JOHN.

I JUST REMEMBER THOSE TWO SO VIVIDLY.

THERE ARE TWO OTHER GREAT ARTISTS IN THERE TOO.

AND HE SAID WRITE A SONG.

SO I WROTE "BOY BLUE" WHICH I DISCOVERED LATER ON THAT YOU CAN'T POUR YOUR HEART OUT AND YOUR LIVER AND EXPECT REPETITIVE PLAY.

SO I ALSO DID "TRUE COLORS" FOR THE PEOPLE THAT SURVIVED HIM, YOU KNOW.

ME, MY FRIEND CARL, CARL AND GREGORY LIVE DOWNSTAIRS FROM ME.

WHEN ALL OF THAT HAPPENED, I HAD MOVED DOWNTOWN.

I HAD NOT SEEN THEM ALL THE TIME, ALL THE TIME.

BUT WHEN I DID SEE THEM, AND THEY DID THE "SHE BOP" VIDEO WITH ME AND MISS DIANA, FIRST TRANSGENDER IN A VIDEO LIKE THAT.

OF COURSE, SOME IT WAS -- IT WAS AN INTERESTING TIME.

AND I WANTED THE SONG -- I KNEW IT WAS A HEALING SONG.

AND IT WAS A HARD THING FOR ME TO LEARN.

YOU HAD TO LEARN THE POWER OF A WHISPER.

AND THAT WAS A BIG LEARNING CURVE FOR ME.

BUT I DID IT ANY WAY, AND I KEPT GOING INSIDE AND INSIDE AND TRYING TO FIND THE PLACE FOR IT.

AND IT DID AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> IT'S BEEN AN INCREDIBLE CAREER.

SO MANY ANTHEMS THAT APPEAL TO SO MANY PEOPLE AND SO MANY GENERATIONS.

AND YOUR MESSAGE OF INCLUSIVITY ALL THE TIME.

I WANT TO VERY SHORTLY FOR OUR LAST ANSWER, HOW WILL THE FAREWELL TOUR BE DONE?

WHAT IS IT YOU WANT TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THAT, IF I MIGHT PUT IT THAT WAY?

>> I WANT TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER INSTEAD OF HAVING US ALL SEPARATE.

I WANT US TO COME TOGETHER.

WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS, AND I'M IN THE BUSINESS OF THE HUMANITIES.

SO I WANT TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN ABLE OVER THE YEARS TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS LIKE TRUE COLORS FOUNDATION, WHICH IS UNITED NOW WHICH IT BECAME INTERNATIONAL AND THEY WORK WITH THE U.N. AND THE GIRLS JUST WANT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.

WE MADE $155,000 WHICH WE DONATED TO DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS THAT GIVE WOMEN ACCESS TO SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTIONS AND PRENATAL CARE AND POST NATAL CARE AND CANCER SCREENING.

I DENT KNOW HOW WE OCCUPY HALF OF THE GLOBE, HAVE BECOME SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, AND DON'T HAVE THE HEALTH CARE THAT WE NEED OR THE AUTONOMY OVER OUR OWN BODIES.

KIND OF CREEPY TO ME.

BUT I'M HOPING WITH THIS TOUR, I CAN BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

I CAN CONTRIBUTE AND HELP, AND MAKE THINGS A LITTLE BETTER INSTEAD OF THE SEPARATION AND THE BIG DIVIDE.

>> CYNDI LAUPER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

AND THE "LET THE CANARY SING" COMPANION ALBUM IS AVAILABLE NOW FROM LEGACY RECORDINGS.

>>> EARLIER THIS WEEK AFTER THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT, AND AS THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION GOT UNDER WAY, THE TRUMP-APPOINTED FEDERAL JUDGE AILEEN CANNON DISMISSED THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS CASE AGAINST HIM.

OVER 93 PAGES, SHE CITED HER DOUBTS ABOUT THE APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH.

THE BACKLASH WAS FAST AND FURIOUS WITH MANY CRITICIZING WHAT THEY CALLED HER DELAY STRATEGY.

TO PIECE TOGETHER HOW THIS COULD IMPACT TRUMP'S PRESIDENTIAL HOPES AND THE INTEGRITY OF AMERICA'S LEGAL SYSTEM, HARI SREENIVASAN SPOKE WITH LEAH LITMAN, LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

LEAH LITMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

JUST RECENTLY, THERE WAS A VERY CONSEQUENTIAL CASE WHERE A TRUMP-APPOINTED JUDGE AILEEN CANNON DISMISSED THE CHARGES AGAINST HIM IN THE DOCUMENTS CASE.

TELL US WHY THIS CASE WAS SO IMPORTANT, WHY THE JUDGE'S RULING WAS AS SIGNIFICANT AS IT IS.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY NOVEL IN THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SPECIAL COUNSELS APPOINTED LIKE JACK SMITH FOR OVER A CENTURY IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT INCLUDES MANY OF THE SPECIAL COUNSELS THAT WERE APPOINTED BY WATERGATE.

AND SO HER RULING UNSETTLES THAT PRACTICE.

AND I THINK IS STRIKINGLY NOVEL IN THAT RESPECT, BASICALLY CONCLUDING THAT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR OVER A CENTURY IS APPARENTLY NO LONGER GOOD ENOUGH IN HER EYES.

AND IT UNSETTLES PRECEDENT IN THE PROCESS OF COURSE BECAUSE THUS FAR, ALL OF THE COURTS HAVE CONSIDERED THE ISSUE HAVE CONCLUDED THAT SPECIAL COUNSELS ARE LAWFUL.

AND THAT INCLUDES THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT, BECAUSE IN THE UNITED STATES VERSUS NIXON, THE COURT HEARD A CASE THAT INVOLVED A WATERGATE SPECIAL COUNSEL AND THE COURT DESCRIBED HOW THAT SPECIAL COUNSEL HAD BEEN APPOINTED PURSUANT TO VARIOUS FEDERAL LAWS THAT JUDGE CANNON ALL OF THE SUDDEN DECLARED DON'T ACTUALLY ALLOW FOR SPECIAL COUNSELS AT ALL.

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING CONNECTIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING WITH HER DECISION IS JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO AT THE SUPREME COURT, CLARENCE THOMAS WROTE A CONCURRING OPINION WHERE HE REFERENCED THIS VERY IDEA.

AND HERE WE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS LATER ON THE DAY THAT THE RNC WAS STARTING WHERE JUDGE CANNON CITES HIS VERY STATEMENT.

WHY IS THAT MORE THAN COINCIDENCE?

>> I THINK JUSTICE THOMAS' SEPARATE WRITING IN THE IMMUNITY CASE REALLY WAS A WAY OF ENCOURAGING JUDGE CANNON TO PULL THIS TRIGGER AND TO CONCLUDE THAT SPECIAL COUNSELS WERE NOT LAWFULLY APPOINTED.

AND I THINK HE GAVE THAT POSITION A PATINA OF LEGITIMACY THAT IT DOESN'T DESERVE AND DIDN'T HAVE BECAUSE, AGAIN, UP UNTIL THAT POINT, NO COURT THAT HAS CONSIDERED THE ISSUE REMOTELY THOUGHT IT PLAUSIBLE THAT CONGRESS HAD NEVER BY LAW AUTHORIZED THE APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSELS.

AND SO HE BASICALLY SAID COME ON ALINE AND WINKED AND NODDED IN THAT DIRECTION, AND SHE PICKED UP THE HINT.

>> THIS SPECIFIC CASE, JACK SMITH IS GOING TO APPEAL, CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HE HAS ALREADY NOTICED AN APPEAL, AND THE SOLICITOR GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, THE TOP LAWYER FOR THE UNITED STATES APPROVED HIS APPEAL.

SO THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> OKAY.

WHEN JACK SMITH APPEALS, WHAT IS HE LIKELY TO POINT OUT?

IS HE LOOKING AT PATTERN OF HER ACTIONS?

IS HE LOOKING SPECIFICALLY AT JUST THE CLAUSE ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONALITY HERE WHEN HE ESSENTIALLY TAKES IT TO HER BOSSES, SO TO SPEAK?

>> SO THERE IS DEFINITELY A PATTERN HERE OF JUDGE CANNON BENDING OVER BACKWARDS IN ORDER TO BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP, OCCASIONALLY IN QUITE LAWLESS WAYS THAT THE VERY CONSERVATIVE COURT OF APPEALS OR THE 11th CIRCUIT HAS REVERSED BEFORE.

BUT MY GUESS IS JACK SMITH WILL FOCUS THIS PARTICULAR APPEAL ON THE VERY NARROW QUESTION, ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT REALLY THAT NARROW AT ALL, ABOUT WHETHER SPECIAL COUNSELS ARE LEGAL.

I THINK HE HAS A VERY STRONG CASE.

AGAIN, EVERY COURT, EVERY JUDGE THAT HAS CONSIDERED THE ISSUE UP UNTIL NOW HAS SIDED WITH THE LAWFULNESS OF SPECIAL COUNSELS.

AND SO I THINK HE IS MORE LIKELY TO FOCUS ON THE PARTICULAR ISSUE IN THIS APPEAL RATHER THAN TO POINT OUT JUDGE CANNON'S LONG HISTORY IN THIS CASE OF TRYING TO GIVE A LEG UP TO DONALD TRUMP.

>> WHAT IS THE THRESHOLD THAT MUST BE CROSSED FOR AN APPELLATE COURT TO SAY WE DON'T LIKE YOUR BEHAVIOR IN THIS.

HERE ARE THE STEPS WE CAN TAKE TO REMEDY THAT?

>> YES.

SO I WOULD SAY THERE ARE REALLY A FEW THINGS THAT ARE ON THE TABLE.

ONE IS THAT AN APPELLATE COURT MIGHT CHOOSE TO WHAT'S CALLED REASSIGN A CASE TO ANOTHER JUDGE THAT IS IF THEY CONCLUDE THAT A JUDGE HAS A PATTERN OF SHOWING BIAS OR CAN'T BE TRUSTED IN A CASE, THEN THEY MIGHT REDIRECT THE CASE TO ANOTHER JUDGE.

THAT'S VERY RARE AND AN EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH BAR.

IS IT POSSIBLE IN THIS CASE?

DO I THINK IT WOULD BE WARRANTED?

YES.

AM I EXPECTING THE CONSERVATIVE 11th CIRCUIT TO ACTUALLY DO THAT?

NOT REALLY.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT JUDGE CANNON'S BEHAVIOR IN THIS CASE SHOULD MATTER TO TWO OTHER AUDIENCES AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED OF COURSE FEDERAL JUDGES HAVE LIFE TENURE.

BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE IMPEACHED AND INVESTIGATED.

CONGRESS CAN HOLD HEARINGS.

AND THERE IS A WORLD IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, A DEMOCRATIC SENATE OR DEMOCRATIC HOUSE ACTUALLY LOOKED INTO THIS MATTER AND CONCLUDED THAT JUDGE CANNON HAD SHOWED SUCH BIAS AND DISREGARD FOR THE LAW THAT IMPEACHMENT OR SOMETHING ELSE MIGHT BE WORTH CONSIDERING.

AND THE THIRD AUDIENCE I WOULD SAY IS THE PUBLIC AT LARGE.

WE ARE AT AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR INSTITUTIONS AND AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE STAKES OF THE UPCOMING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AS FAR AS WHO WILL BE SITTING ON THE FEDERAL COURTS.

ONE OF THE THREE MAJOR INSTITUTIONS WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF THE OTHER CASES THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS FACED RECENTLY.

I MEAN, THE SUPREME COURT WEIGHED IN ON ESSENTIALLY THE AMOUNT OF IMMUNITY THAT SHOULD BE GRANTED AND THE AMOUNT OF LEEWAY THAT SHOULD BE GRANTED IN THE OFFICIAL ACTS CARRIED OUT BY THE PRESIDENT.

WHAT'S THAT DO TO THE OTHER CASES THAT HE'S FACING?

LET'S TACKLE FIRST THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE IN GEORGIA.

>> THE SUPREME COURT'S IMMUNITY RULING WILL HAVE I THINK THE GREATEST EFFECTS ON BOTH THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE IN GEORGIA AS WELL AS THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE IN D.C.

IN FEDERAL COURT.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS ALREADY SAID THAT SOME OF THE BASES FOR THOSE PROSECUTIONS CANNOT ACTUALLY BE USED TO PROSECUTE THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

THEY ALSO ADDED THAT SOME OF THE OTHER ALLEGATIONS IN THE VARIOUS INDICTMENTS SUCH AS THE PRESIDENT'S ATTEMPT TO PRESSURE THE VICE PRESIDENT TO THROW OUT LAWFULLY CAST VOTES, THAT THOSE ACTS ARE ENTITLED TO A PRESUMPTION OF IMMUNITY, AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD BEAR A DIFFERENT BURDEN IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY BEING ABLE TO PROSECUTE THE FORMER PRESIDENT ON THOSE GROUNDS AS WELL.

AND SO THE EXPANSIVE IMMUNITY THAT THE COURT ANNOUNCED, AS WELL AS ITS APPLICATION OF THAT IMMUNITY TO THE PARTICULAR ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASES, I THINK SUGGESTS THAT THAT RULE WILLING HAVE THE MOST EFFECT ON THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASES, WHICH IN MANY RESPECTS ARE THE MOST SERIOUS.

IN ADDITION TO THE IMMUNITY RULING, FIVE OF THE JUSTICES WHO WERE IN THE MAJORITY ADOPTED AN EVIDENTIARY PRIVILEGE, BASICALLY SAYING PROSECUTORS CANNOT INTRODUCE ANY EVIDENCE OF ANY OFFICIAL ACTS THAT ARE THEMSELVES ENTITLED TO IMMUNITY.

THEY CANNOT PROBE THOSE OFFICIAL ACTS WITH OTHER EVIDENCE.

THEY CANNOT INQUIRY INTO THE MODUS THE PRESIDENT HAD IN PERFORMING THOSE OFFICIAL ACTS.

AND THAT WILL ELIMINATE SOME POSSIBLE EVIDENCE THAT PROSECUTORS IN ALL OF THESE CASES MIGHT HAVE USED AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

>> DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY IN A CRIMINAL PROCEDURE IN NEW YORK.

THE HUSH MONEY TRIAL.

AND JUDGE MERCHANT HAS PUT THE SENTENCING FOR THAT TRIAL ON HOLD.

WHY DID HE DO THAT?

>> IN PART SO THAT THE PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE CAN ENGAGE WITH ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE SUPREME COURT'S IMMUNITY RULING POTENTIALLY AFFECTS THAT CONVICTION AS WELL.

DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYERS ARE ARGUING THAT SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS INTRODUCED IN THAT PROSECUTION PERTAIN TO OFFICIAL ACTS, AND THEREFORE RENDER THE ENTIRE CONVICTION POTENTIALLY INVALID.

>> WHAT HAPPENS HERE IF THESE CASES ARE NOT ENDED BY THE ELECTION AND DONALD TRUMP WINS?

>> I THINK THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL END THE FEDERAL PROSECUTIONS.

HE WOULD ORDER THOSE CHARGES TO BE DROPPED IN THE FEDERAL ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE AND THE FEDERAL OBSTRUCTION AND WRONGFUL RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS CASES IN FLORIDA.

AS TO THE STATE CASE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WOULD THEN BE A KIND OF ADDITIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION PRESENTED, WHICH IS WHETHER YOU CAN PROCEED WITH A TRIAL AGAINST A SITTING PRESIDENT RATHER THAN A FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND SO IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THAT ISSUE WOULD RESULT IN AN INDEFINITE SUSPENSION OF THE GEORGIA ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE.

IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT THE NEW YORK COURTS WOULD CONCLUDE THEY CAN'T ACTUALLY IMPOSE A SENTENCE ON SOMEONE WHO IS INCOMING OR A SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT THE STATE CASES ARE SUSPENDED, AND I THINK IT'S A CERTAINTY THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD ELIMINATE THE FEDERAL >> REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMP COMES BACK INTO OFFICE, HE IS GOING TO GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS ONE OF THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL PRESIDENTS PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF THE THREE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES THAT HE WAS ABLE TO APPOINT.

BUT AS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR ARTICLES AND WRITING AND YOUR STUDY OF THIS, WE FORGET ALL OF THE OTHER JUDGESHIPS THAT MAKE UP THE NATIONAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, RIGHT?

AND WHY HAVE THOSE APPOINTMENTS BEEN SO SIGNIFICANT?

AND WHY SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT THAT AS ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHO WE ELECT?

>> I MEAN, JUDGE CANON IS A PERFECT CASE.

YOU PREVIOUSLY NOTED HOW NONE OF THE CASES AGAINST DONALD TRUMP HAD ACTUALLY PROCEEDED TO IMPOSITION A SENTENCE.

BUT THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE OF WHO DONALD TRUMP APPOINTED TO BOTH THE U.S. SUPREME COURT AND THE LOWER FEDERAL COURTS.

JUDGE CANON AND HER CONDUCT OF THIS TRIAL HAS DONE EVERYTHING TO DELAY THE PROCEEDING FROM OUTRIGHT DISMISSING THE CASE, WHICH JUST HAPPENED, TO EFFECTIVELY DRAGGING IT OUT OVER TIME.

REMEMBER, SHE TRIED TO INTERFERE IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S INVESTIGATION BY SUGGESTING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD SOME INTEREST IN LIMITS THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S ABILITY TO GO THROUGH THE EVIDENCE SEIZED FROM MAR-A-LAGO.

AND ALL OF THAT DELAYED THE PROSECUTION AND PROCEEDINGS IN WHAT MANY RESPECTS IS THE MOST STRAIGHT FORWARD OPEN-AND-SHUT CASE, OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE AND WRONGFUL RETENTION OF DOCUMENTS.

I MEAN, THERE IS LITERALLY VIDEO AND AUDIO EVIDENCE OF THEM MOVING AROUND THE DOCUMENTS AT MAR-A-LAGO AND THE PRESIDENT ON AUDIOTAPE SAYING HE DIDN'T DECLASSIFY THE DOCUMENTS WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT.

AND SO ALL OF THAT CAME TO A HALT BECAUSE JUDGE CANON, DONALD TRUMP'S APPOINTEE, DECIDED SHE WAS GOING DRAG HER HEELS AND DRAG THIS CASE OUT UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION.

AND THERE ARE JUDGES LIKE THAT WHO ARE LYING IN WAIT IN BOTH THE FEDERAL TRIAL COURTS LIKE JUDGE CANON AS WELL AS ON THE COURTS OF APPEALS AROUND THE COUNTRY BECAUSE REPUBLICANS PRIORITIZED THE APPOINTMENT OF JUDGES WHO WERE YOUNG, WHO WERE IDEOLOGICAL, AND WHO WOULD ADVANCE THE INTERESTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> CONGRESSMAN -- WHO IS A HUGE SUPPORTER OF THE PRESIDENT, RIGHT AFTER AILEEN CANNON'S DECISION, HE TWEETED A PHOTO, FUTURE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE CANNON.

THAT WAS THE CAPTION HE HAD WITH A PHOTO OF HER.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> IT IS THE PERFECT ENCAPSULATION OF HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SIGNALING TO ASPIRING OFFICIALS WHETHER IN THE COURTS OR OTHERWISE THAT MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERION IS WHETHER YOU ARE WILLING TO SACRIFICE YOUR MORALS, ETHICS, THE RULE OF LAW IN ORDER TO BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY ARE HOLDING THAT OUT AS THE CRITERIA FOR PROFESSIONAL ADVANCEMENT, INCLUDING IN THE FEDERAL COURTS.

AND I THINK THAT'S VERY SCARY.

>> THE IDEOLOGY OF THE COURT, OR THE GRIP THAT IDEOLOGY HAS ON THE COURT HAS ALREADY BEEN REVEALED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

OBVIOUSLY, THE OVERTURNING OF ROE V. WADE WAS AN ENORMOUS CASE.

BUT THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL OTHER CASES IN BOTH THE PREVIOUS SITTING OF THE COURT AND THIS SESSION.

WHICH ONES STRIKE YOU AS HAVING KIND OF THESE LONGER TERM EFFECTS THAT WE'RE NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT TODAY BECAUSE IT MIGHT NOT HAVE AS VISCERAL A REACTION AS THE DOBBS CASE AND ROE V. WADE OVERTURNING WAS, BUT ARE STILL REALLY IMPORTANT IN HOW THE COUNTRY IS RUN.

>> IT'S REALLY HARD JUST TO LIST A FEW.

I JUST HAVE TO SAY ONE ADDITIONAL SENTENCE ABOUT DOBBS, WHICH OF COURSE IS DOBBS UNLEASHED THE CURRENT LANDSCAPE WHERE WE ARE NOW TWO YEARS AFTER THE DECISION DEBATING WHETHER STATES CAN PROHIBIT HOSPITALS FROM OFFERING EMERGENCY CARE TO PREGNANT PATIENTS WHOSE LIFE AND HEALTH DEPENDS ON IT.

IT IS HARD TO GET MORE CONSEQUENTIAL THAN THAT.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> I WOULD ALSO ADD A KIND OF TRIO OR GROUCHING OF ADMINISTRATIVE LAW CASES WHERE THE COURT HAS LIMITED THE AUTHORITY OF EXPERT FEDERAL AGENCIES LIKE THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY OR THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU OR THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION IN ORDER TO MAKE A VARIETY OF RULES THAT AFFECT OUR HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE ENVIRONMENT.

AND IN ALL OF THOSE CASES, THE COURT HAS BASICALLY GIVEN THE FEDERAL COURTS MORE POWER TO SECOND GUESS EVERYTHING THAT AGENCIES DO.

AND IN A WORLD IN WHICH THE COURTS ARE CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICAN-APPOINTED JUSTICES, WHO ARE HOSTILE TO THE PROJECT OF REGULATION, AND WHO ARE SYMPATHETIC TO CORPORATE INTERESTS, THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT PEOPLE'S LIVES OVER THE NEXT DECADES.

AND PROBABLY THE THIRD ONE I WOULD LIST IS THE COURT'S 2022 DECISION IN BRUIN, THE SECOND AMENDMENT CASE IN WHICH THE COURT ADOPTED A NEW LEGAL TEST THAT WOULD DETERMINE WHETHER FIREARMS ARE CONSTITUTIONAL.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT DECISION THAT IS PLAYING OUT IN THE FEDERAL COURTS THAT WE ARE LIKELY TO SEE FALLOUT FROM FOR HOWEVER MANY YEARS AS IT REMAINS GOOD LAW.

>> "THE WASHINGTON POST" REPORTED EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS CONSIDERING PERHAPS WAYS TO REIN IN SOME OF THE POWERS OF THE SUPREME COURT, INCLUDING MAYBE TERM LIMITS OR ENFORCEABLE ETHICS CODE.

ARE THESE THINGS EVEN CONSTITUTIONALLY POSSIBLE?

>> I THINK MANY OF THEM ARE.

WE DON'T YET HAVE THE PROPOSAL.

AND SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT TO ANALYZE.

>> YEAH.

>> THE PRECISE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THE PRESIDENT MIGHT BE THINKING ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT.

YOU KNOW, I DO HAVE TO SAY TERM LIMITS ARE PROBABLY THE OPTION THAT HAS THE MOST CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THEM, JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS ABOUT FEDERAL JUDGES HOLDING THEIR OFFICE FOR GOOD BEHAVIOR.

NOW I DO THINK THERE IS A PRETTY GOOD CASE THAT CONGRESS COULD ALTER THE TERMS OF THE OFFICE OF FEDERAL JUDGES OR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES GOING FORWARD.

BUT I VERY MUCH DOUBT THAT CONGRESS COULD IMPOSE TERM LIMITS RETROACTIVELY ON JUSTICES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN CONFIRMED.

SO PROSPECTIVE TERM LIMITS ARE NOT REALLY GOING TO CHANGE THE COURT WE HAVE FOR A PRETTY LONG WHILE AND RELATIVE TO SOME OTHER OPTIONS I THINK HAVE MORE SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS.

>> WHAT ARE YOUR KIND OF TOP THREE SUGGESTIONS IF YOU WERE ABLE TO WHISPER INTO THE EARS OF ANYBODY THAT'S LOOKING TO REFORM THE COURT SYSTEM THAT MIGHT BE MORE FAIR, REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN POWER.

>> SO I DO THINK TERM LIMITS WOULD BE GOOD PROSPECTIVELY, BUT I THINK BY THEMSELVES ARE ABSOLUTELY INSUFFICIENT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I THINK TERM LIMITS ARE GOOD BECAUSE THEY PUT THE PUBLIC ON NOTICE THAT WHEN THEY GO TO THE POLLS NEXT, THEY ARE PICKING THE PERSON WHO WILL PICK A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

AND I THINK DEMOCRATIZING THE SELECTION PROCESS IS A GOOD THING.

ANOTHER REFORM THAT I THINK HAS TO BE ON THE TABLE IS LIMITING THE POWER OF THE FEDERAL COURTS IN VARIOUS WAYS.

I THINK THERE ARE PRETTY TARGETED PROPOSALS THAT COULD LIMIT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SUPREME COURT'S ABILITY TO STRIKE DOWN THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, OR TO STRIKE DOWN FEDERAL LAWS THAT AUTHORIZE THE APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSELS TO INVESTIGATE WRONGDOING IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

THERE ARE ALREADY A BUNCH OF FEDERAL LAWS THAT RESTRICT COURTS' POWER TO IMPLEMENT THEM.

I THINK CONGRESS WOULD BE WELL WITHIN ITS POWER TO ENABLE VARIOUS STATUTES TO ELIMINATE THOSE LAWS.

AND I WOULD ADD TO THAT COURT EXPANSION ON ALL LEVELS.

I THINK THIS SUPREME COURT AS IT EXISTS IS A THREAT TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, AND I THINK IS LIKELY TO INVALIDATE ANY KIND OF PROPOSED REFORMS TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AND I THINK IN ORDER TO DEMOCRATIZE THE COURT AND LIMIT ITS POWER, YOU HAVE TO ADD SOME ADDITIONAL NUMBER OF JUSTICES THAT WOULD ALLOW CONGRESS TO ENACT THOSE REFORMS.

>> PROFESSOR LEAH LITMAN, HOST OF THE PODCAST STRICT SCRUTINY, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WOMEN SUPPORTING WOMEN.

THIS YEAR'S EMMY NOMINATIONS ARE OUT.

AND ONE OF THE SHOW'S TOPPING THE BILL IS "TRUE DETECTIVE: NIGHT COUNTRY" WITH NODS TO HOLLYWOOD LEGEND JODIE FOSTER AND BOXING CHAMP TURNED TV ACTOR KALI REIS.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, THE PAIR JOINED ME TO DISCUSS WORKING TOGETHER ON THE HIT SHOW.

IT IS ONLY THE THIRD ACTING ROLE FOR REIS, AND I ASKED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO STAR ALONG SIDE ONE OF HER IDOLS, THE IMPORTANCE OF INDIGENOUS REPRESENTATION, AND IF FOSTER FEELS READY TO PASS THE BATON.

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREAT, GREAT ACTORS SINCE THE AGE OF 6 YEARS OLD.

MULTI-OSCAR WINNING, MULTIAWARD WING, DIRECTOR, ALL OF THAT, IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS FOR ALL SORTS OF REASONS FOR SO MANY YEARS.

WAS IT INTIMIDATING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I WAS TERRIFIED.

I WAS TERRIFIED.

BUT I WAS EXCITED BECAUSE SOMETHING THAT TERRIFIED ME LIKE THIS, I WAS GOING TO LEARN SO MUCH.

AND WHAT BETTER HANDS TO BE IN AND LEARN FROM THAN SOMEBODY LIKE THIS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A FUNNY THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TURN 60, I THINK, AT LEAST FOR ME.

I FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOME WEIRD CHEMICAL THAT STARTS GOING OFF IN YOUR BODY, AND YOU JUST DON'T CARE.

AND PART OF THAT NOT CARING IS THAT YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT IT'S SO MUCH MORE FUN AND MORE SATISFYING TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT YOUR TIME, IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME, AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO HELP SUPPORT THEM AND BRING WHATEVER EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM YOU HAVE TO THAT PROCESS.

>> A POIGNANT MEDITATION ON SUCCESS, AGE, AND MAKING ROOM AT THE TOP.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON OUR SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.