July 25, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." FROM PARIS.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

LET THE GAMES BEGIN.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL SHOW AS THE PARIS OLYMPICS KICK OFF.

FIRST -- >> I LOVE TENNIS, BUT I'M NOT ABLE TO TRAIN AND PREPARE AS I USED TO.

>> TWO-TIME OLYMPIC TENNIS CHAMPION ANDY MURRAY JOINS US AS HE ANNOUNCES PARIS WILL BE HIS FAREWELL TO THE PROFESSION.

>>> AND -- >> WE ARE VERY FOCUSED, VERY CONCENTRATED.

WE HAVE VERY WELL PREPARED.

IT'S A HEAVY RESPONSIBILITY ON OUR SHOULDERS, BUT WE'RE UP TO THE CHALLENGE.

>> CAN SPORT UNITE A FRACTURED FRANCE AND A FRACTURED WORLD?

I ASKED THE SPORT'S MINISTER, AMELIE OUDEA-CASTERA.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> IT STRIKES ME THAT WE'VE BEEN HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION KIND OF OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND OFTEN ERASED IN ALL OF THIS IS THE ATHLETES THEMSELVES.

>> "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS."

AUTHOR MICHAEL WATERS TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE GRIPPING TRUE STORIES OF PIONEERING TRANS AND INTERSECTS ATHLETES COMPETING IN THE 1930S.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN PARIS WHERE THE OLYMPIC FLAME IS MAKING ITS WAY THROUGH THIS CITY OF LIGHT BEFORE TOMORROW'S OPENING CEREMONY.

100 YEARS SINCE THEY HELD THEIR LAST SUMMER GAMES.

THAT WAS 1924.

ATHLETES FROM 206 INTERNATIONAL TEAMS ARE DESCENDING ON THE CAPITAL AS THE WORLD TRIES TO UNITE AROUND THE OLYMPIC IDEALS OF EXCELLENCE, RESPECT, AND FRIENDSHIP.

THESE GAMES WILL SEE THE RETURN OF SUPERSTAR CHAMPIONS LIKE THE BRITISH DIVING PRODIGY TOM DALEY, THE JAMAICAN SPRINTER SHELL-ANN FRASER-PRYCE, AND OF COURSE THE AMERICAN GYMNAST SIMONE BILES.

IT WILL BE AN OLYMPIAD LIKE NO OTHER WITH NEW SPORTS SUCH AS BREAKING, ALSO KNOWN AS BREAK DANCING.

AND FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, THERE WILL BE GENDER PARITY.

MORE THAN 10,000 MALE AND FEMALE ATHLETES COMPETING SIDE BY SIDE.

MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT KNOWS THESE GAMES VERY WELL.

THE BRITISH TENNIS STAR ANDY MURRAY IS THE ONLY MAN TO TAKE GOLD TWICE IN MEN'S SINGLES.

WE MET HERE EARLIER THIS MORNING AHEAD OF HIS TRAINING FOR THIS HIS FINAL PROFESSIONAL COMPETITION.

ANDY MURRAY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S A BIG DEAL THIS, RIGHT?

NOT ONLY ARE YOU IN THE OLYMPICS FOR YOUR COUNTRY, BUT YOU'RE RETIRING AFTER THIS.

ARE THERE ALL SORTS OF MIXED EMOTIONS?

>> RIGHT NOW NOT REALLY.

A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO I DEFINITELY WAS -- I WAS UNSURE ABOUT WHEN I WANTED TO FINISH OR IF I WANTED TO FINISH, I WAS FINDING THE -- MAKING THAT DECISION QUITE DIFFICULT.

AND OBVIOUSLY CONSULTED MY FAMILY AND MY TEAM, BUT ULTIMATELY, THE DECISION HAD TO COME FROM ME.

BUT AS I SIT HERE TODAY, I'M REALLY HAPPY ABOUT IT.

I'M HAPPY THAT I GET TO FINISH PLAYING IN AN OLYMPICS WITH A LOT OF MY -- I CONSIDER A LOT OF THE TENNIS PLAYERS ON OUR TEAM CLOSE FRIENDS OF MINE.

AND GETTING TO BE AROUND THEM AND HAVE GREAT MEMORIES FROM THE OLYMPICS.

SO I'M HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL OBVIOUSLY REALLY WATCHING THIS BUSINESS OF AGE AND RETIREMENT.

OBVIOUSLY JOE BIDEN HAS STEPPED OFF THE STAGE.

NADAL, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING.

FEDERER HAS STEPPED OFF THE STAGE.

HE DID A WHOLE MOVIE ABOUT HIS RETIREMENT.

WELL DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH DJOKOVIC.

EVERYBODY IN YOUR PROFESSION SEEMS TO HAVE SO MANY INJURIES.

YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY YOUNG.

YOU'VE BEEN FORCED -- >> I DON'T FEEL IT.

>> YOU DON'T FEEL IT?

>> NO.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL?

>> MENTALLY, I STILL FEEL YOUNG.

BUT PHYSICALLY, THE LAST FEW YEARS HAVE BEEN REALLY HARD FOR ME.

I'VE GONE THROUGH QUITE A LOT OF SURGERIES AND, YOU KNOW, HAD A LOT OF INJURIES.

YEAH, AND THAT'S WHY I'M READY TO FINISH PLAYING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I'M STILL VERY COMPETITIVE, AND I WANT TO BE OUT THERE.

I LOVE TENNIS.

BUT I'M NOT ABLE TO TRAIN AND PREPARE AS WELL AS I USED TO.

>> HERE WE ARE AT THE OLYMPICS.

YOU ARE A TWO-TIME OLYMPIC WINNER, GOLD MEDALIST.

YOU'VE WON WIMBLEDON TWICE, THE U.S. OPEN TWICE.

46 TITLES.

AND YOU'VE BEEN NUMBER ONE, AND YOU HELPED YOUR COUNTRY WIN THE DAVIS CUP IN 2015.

HOW DO YOU FEEL TODAY ABOUT YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS ON AND OFF THE COURT?

>> I'M REALLY PROUD OF WHAT I'VE ACHIEVED.

I'VE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD THROUGHOUT MY CAREER.

I'VE GIVEN -- I FEEL LIKE AS MUCH AS I COULD TO MY PROFESSION.

YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE I'VE WORKED HARD AND I'M PROUD OF WHAT I'VE ACHIEVED.

OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AND REFLECT ON THINGS, THE WAY I AM, THERE IS ALWAYS THINGS I WISH I HAD DONE A BIT DIFFERENTLY.

I'D PROBABLY -- AND THERE IS PROBABLY A FEW REGRETS IN THERE.

BUT ON THE WHOLE, I DID AS BEST AS I COULD, AND I'M COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

>> WHAT DO THE OLYMPICS MEAN TO YOU?

BECAUSE IT'S SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT THAN A GRAND SLAM EVENT, MENTALLY I SUPPOSE IN TERMS OF TEAM WORK.

>> YEAH, IT IS DIFFICULT.

AND I'VE ALWAYS FED OFF THAT.

I ALWAYS ENJOYED THE WHOLE TEAM ATMOSPHERE.

EUROPE, THAT'S BEEN A BIG REASON FOR WHY I'VE PLAYED SOME OF MY BEST TENNIS WHEN I'VE COMPETED FOR MY COUNTRY.

YOU'RE PLAYING FOR SOMETHING BIGGER THAN YOURSELF, AND I'VE REALLY ENJOYED THAT.

>> AND YOU ENDED A 77-YEAR DROUGHT IN MINUTE'S SINGLES WINNERS AT WIMBLEDON.

THAT MUST HAVE FELT INCREDIBLE AS WELL.

>> I MEAN, WHEN I LOOK BACK AT IT, YEAH.

THERE WAS -- IT WAS AN AMAZING DAY FOR ME, AND I THINK FOR SPORTS FANS IN THE UK.

LIKE YOU SAY, IT HAD BEEN A LONG TIME.

AT THE TIME, I DIDN'T TAKE IT IN AS MUCH AS I WISH I HAD DONE.

I FELT SO RELIEVED TO FINALLY HAVE DONE IT.

I HAD COME CLOSE QUITE A FEW TIMES.

AND I GUESS THAT WAS SORT OF ALMOST WHAT I FELT LIKE.

MY WHOLE CAREER WAS SORT OF BUILDING TOWARDS.

I WAS TRYING TO WIN WIMBLEDON.

IF I HADN'T DONE, THAT I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE FELT LIKE I FAILED IN SOME WAY.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT, I DIDN'T FULLY APPRECIATE IT.

I WAS JUST RELIEVED THAT IT HAPPENED.

BUT THEN WHEN I LOOKED BACK A FEW WEEKS LATER, WELL, IT DOESN'T END HERE.

I KEEP GOING.

WHAT'S NEXT?

IT WAS QUITE STRANGE.

A STRANGE FEELING.

>> WHAT ABOUT FANS?

I WONDER WHETHER THERE IS A LOT OF BURDEN YOU FEEL OR HAVE FELT THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A REALLY FUNNY AND SOMETIMES GRUMPY DEMEANOR ON COURT.

>> SOMETIMES IS A POLITE WAY OF PUTTING IT, YEAH.

>> AND THEN YOU ARE FUNNY AND THE CROWD LOVES YOU.

AND I REMEMBER THAT LONG CRAZY MATCH IN THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN.

I DON'T KNOW, IT ENDED AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING OR SOMETHING CRAZY.

AND YOU GOT THIS HUGE OVATION.

EVERYBODY STAYED TO WATCH YOU.

WHAT HAVE YOU TAKEN FROM THE CROWDS THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER FROM THE BEGINNING AND THEN AS YOU GOT BETTER AND BETTER?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS PROBABLY THE THING I'LL DEFINITELY MISS THAT A LOT WHEN I FINISH.

I THINK ANYONE THAT'S PLAYING IN PROFESSIONAL SPORT, YOU WANT TO BE PLAYING ON THE BIGGEST COURTS IN FRONT OF -- NEVER MIND IF THE CROWD WERE FOR OR AGAINST ME.

JUST PLAYING IN BRILLIANT ATMOSPHERES.

>> REALLY, YOU NEVER MINDED?

>> NO, NO.

IF I WAS PLAYING IN THE UK AND THE CROWD WEREN'T BEHIND ME, YOU WOULD PROBABLY FEEL THAT A LITTLE BIT.

BUT WHEN WE'RE PLAYING DAVIS CUP MATCHES AWAY FROM HOME AND PLAYING SORT OF HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS, YEAH, I LOVED THAT.

I ENJOYED THAT.

AND THERE IS SOME OF THE MATCHES THAT YOU REMEMBER THE MOST, REALLY.

>> IT'S WEIRD FOR SOME OF US WHO LIKE AND ENJOY SPORTS, AND THEN WE SEE FOR EXAMPLE THE BRITISH SOCCER TEAM, FOOTBALL TEAM.

THEY'RE OFTEN HATED OR LIONIZED.

AND I JUST WONDERED, WHY DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAT AT THE TIME WITH THEIR OWN TEAMS, FANS, I MEAN.

AND THE MEDIA AND THE TABLOIDS.

>> IT'S A FINE BALANCE.

OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO WIN WIMBLEDON, I GOT CLOSE QUITE A FEW TIMES BEFORE DOING IT.

AND EACH TIME YOU LOST AND DIDN'T QUITE GET THERE, FELT LIKE THERE WAS ALMOST A BACKLASH, A DISAPPOINTMENT FOR NOT ACHIEVING THAT WHEN ACTUALLY MAKING THE FINAL AT WIMBLEDON.

BIG PICTURE IS A BRILLIANT RESULT, REALLY.

YOU KNOW, AND THE FOOTBALL TEAMS HAVE COME CLOSE AND NOT QUITE DONE IT.

AND I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHY THERE IS A BIG SORT OF BACKLASH OR NEGATIVITY.

AROUND THAT.

BUT IT'S DEFINITELY THERE.

FOR SURE, THE ATHLETES, YOU KNOW, THEY FEEL THAT.

>> THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER, DO YOU FEEL YOU'VE BEEN SUPPORTED NOT ONLY BY YOUR OWN TEAM OBVIOUSLY AND YOUR FAMILY, BUT BY COMPETITORS?

I ALWAYS -- ESPECIALLY TENNIS, DON'T YOU ALL END UP IN THE SAME LOCKER ROOM?

YOU TRAVEL.

IT'S QUITE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW YOU GET OUT THERE.

MANO A MANO COMBAT FOR SEVERAL HOURS ON THE COURT.

BUT THEN THERE IS THE HANDSHAKE OBVIOUSLY.

AND THEN THERE IS I GUESS THE SOCIALIZING AND THE FRIENDSHIPS AFTERWARDS AND DESPITE IT ALL.

>> YEAH.

IT'S LIKE A BIG FAMILY TRAVELING WITH EACH OTHER, AND THERE IS -- YOU KNOW, I'VE HAD DISAGREEMENTS AND ISSUES OVER THE YEARS WITH NOT LOTS OF PLAYERS, BUT IT HAS HAPPENED.

BUT THEN NOW THAT I'M COMING TO THE END, I SORT OF WISH I HADN'T OR TRIED TO RESOLVE SOME OF THEM AND SOONER, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S SPORT, AND IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT IN THE BIG PICTURE.

IT FEELS AT THE TIME TO US LIKE IT IS, BUT YEAH, IT'S LIKE ONE BIG FAMILY TRAVELING.

YOU WANT TO BE RESPECTED AND LIKED BY THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU BRING UP SOMETHING INTERESTING, WANT TO BE LIKED.

EVERYBODY SAYS DJOKOVIC IS BIG SORT OF MAYBE HIS MENTAL FRAILTY IS WANTING TO BE LIKED.

>> YEAH, I THINK AT TIMES IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT FOR HIM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NADAL AND FEDERER BEFORE NOVAK BECAME THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF TYSON, THE BEST MALE PLAYER, HE HAS WON THE MOST GRAND SLAMS AND HAD AN UNBELIEVABLE CAREER THAT RAFA AND ROGER WERE SO LOVED AND HAD A BRILLIANT RIVALRY.

I THINK NOVAK HAS HUGE SUPPORT AROUND THE WORLD, BUT, YEAH, I THINK AT TIMES IT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO NOT MAYBE FEEL THE SAME SUPPORT FROM THE CROWD AS RAFA AND ROGER GOT.

BUT HE STILL DOES HAVE MASSIVE SUPPORT AROUND THE WORLD.

I THINK HE IS EXTREMELY WELL RESPECTED, NOT JUST IN TENNIS, BUT IN WORLD SPORTS BECAUSE OF ALL OF -- YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF ALL OF HIS ACHIEVEMENTS.

AND I THINK AT TIMES HE'S THRIVED ON THAT AS WELL.

WHEN THE CROWD HASN'T BEEN BEHIND HIM, HE'S PLAYED SOME OF HIS BEST TENNIS AND HIS BEST MATCHES WHEN THAT HASN'T BEEN THE CASE.

IN A STRANGE WAY, IT'S MAYBE HELPED HIM ACHIEVE MORE.

BUT, YEAH, I THINK IT'S BEEN HARD FOR HIM AT TIMES.

>> ON SAFARI, YOU TALK ABOUT THE BIG FIVE, THE BIG FIVE, THE BEAST THAT YOU TRY TO FIND THERE WAS THE BIG FOUR AT WIMBLEDON, YOU AND RAFA AND FEDERER AND NOVAK.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING PART OF THAT PANTHEON OF REAL GREATS AND FOR A LONG TIME?

AND NOW I'M AFRAID YOU'RE ALL SORT OF -- WELL, YOU'RE LEAVING, FEDERER HAS LEFT.

AS WE SAY, WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT NOVAK AND NADAL.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, LOOK, I DIDN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO WHAT ANY OF THOSE GUYS DID, BUT THERE WAS A PERIOD WHERE OFTEN WE WERE COMPETING AT THE LATTER STAGES OF ALL OF THE MAJOR EVENTS.

LOOK, IT WAS -- TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN THIS PERIOD HAS BEEN VERY HARD.

NOT MANY PLAYERS MANAGE TO WIN GRAND SLAMS AND GET RIGHT CLOSE TO THE TOP OF THE RANKINGS.

LIKE I SAID, IT'S BEEN AMAZING WHAT ALL THREE OF THEM HAVE ACHIEVED IN THE SAME PERIOD, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE'LL SEE THAT LEVEL OF DOMINANCE AGAIN IN TENNIS.

BUT, YEAH, I'M PROUD OF THE SMALL PART THAT I PLAYED IN THAT.

AND I THINK THE ACHIEVEMENTS THAT I HAD IN THIS PERIOD, YEAH, MEAN A LOT BECAUSE OF HOW GREAT THOSE GUYS HAVE BEEN AND HOW HARD IT HAS BEEN TO WIN MAJOR EVENTS DURING THIS PERIOD.

IT'S BEEN SPECIAL TO SEE HOW THEY'VE ALSO DRIVEN EACH OTHER TO GO TO THE LEVELS THEY HAVE AND ACHIEVE WHAT THEY HAVE.

SO, YEAH.

>> AND WHO, IF I ASKED WHO YOU WOULD BET ON, WHO YOU WOULD SEE AS THE NEXT GREAT, IS IT ALCARAZ, WHO IS ALREADY GREAT?

IS IT CINNA, ALREADY GREAT?

WHO IS IT IN THE MEN AND WOMEN?

>> IT'S ALWAYS DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE NEXT SORT OF 16, 17-YEAR-OLD THAT'S COMING THROUGH.

I WON'T HAVE WATCHED THEM PLAY AND I DON'T KNOW.

MAYBE THERE IS SOME YOUNG PLAYERS THAT COME THROUGH IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS THAT ARE BETTER THAN ALL OF THE PLAYERS AT THE TOP JUST NOW.

BUT FOR ME, I LOVE WATCHING ALCARAZ PLAY.

HE HAS OBVIOUSLY ACHIEVED GREAT THINGS.

IT'S EASY TO SAY THAT BUT WHEN I WATCHED HIM AND PLAYED AGAINST HIM FOR THE FIRST TIME A FEW YEARS AGO, I JUST LOVED THE WAY HE WENT ABOUT THINGS.

HE'S GOT A GREAT GAME, AND HE'S ALREADY WON FOUR MAJORS.

AND I THINK MANY MORE PROVIDING HE STAYS HEALTHY.

AND ON THE WOMEN'S SIDE, SWIATEK, SHE IS A BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT PLAYER.

SHE HAS DONE PARTICULARLY WELL ON THE CLAY COURTS.

SHE CAN MAKE A FEW ADJUSTMENTS ON THE OTHER SURFACES, I WOULD EXPECT HER TO GONE AND WIN LOTS MORE MAJORS.

>> IT WAS NOTED WHEN YOU TOOK A WOMAN COACH, EMILY MAURESMO, AND YOU WERE I THINK THE FIRST MALE PLAYER TO HAVE A FEMALE COACH.

AND THEN CAME OUT ALL THESE -- YOU KNOW, YOU REALLY PUT YOURSELF NOTICEABLY BEHIND EQUALITY AND EQUITY FOR WOMEN IN THIS SPORT AND MAYBE THROUGHOUT LIFE.

WHAT IS IT THAT MADE YOU NOT ONLY HAVE THOSE FEELINGS, BUT ACTUALLY SPEAK ABOUT IT AND PROMOTE THE WOMEN'S GAME AS WELL?

>> WELL, IT WASN'T SOMETHING I'D REALLY -- WHEN I WAS IN MY TEENAGED YEARS OR EARLY 20S ON THE TOUR, IT WASN'T SOMETHING I'D GIVEN MUCH THOUGHT.

TO I WAS JUST FOCUSING ON MY OWN CAREER AND WASN'T THINKING ABOUT MUCH, MUCH ELSE, TO BE HONEST.

AND WHEN I START WORKING WITH EMILY, THINGS CHANGED FOR ME QUITE A LOT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY RECOGNIZED THERE WAS A BIG CHANGE IN ATTITUDE IN TERMS OF THE WAY THE PLAYERS IN THE LOCKER ROOM WERE TALKING ABOUT HER AND EVEN PEOPLE, PART OF MY TEAM.

>> NEGATIVELY?

>> YEAH, NEGATIVELY.

>> THE MEDIA WERE OBVIOUSLY VERY INTERESTED IN THE STORY.

BUT EACH TIME I LOST, I GOT ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT MY COACH AND I HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED THAT BEFORE.

I REALIZED THAT THIS WAS DIFFERENT.

AND AROUND THAT TIME I STARTED TO HAVE A FEW MORE CONVERSATIONS WITH MY MOM ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE.

SHE HAS WORKED IN TENNIS FOR A LONG TIME AS A FEMALE COACH.

AND SOME OF THE DIFFICULTIES AND CHALLENGES THAT SHE'S HAD, IT WAS QUITE EYE-OPENING FOR ME.

AND THAT WAS SORT OF WHEN I STARTED TO REALIZE THAT THINGS NEEDED TO CHANGE A BIT.

>> I MEAN, EVEN AT THE FRENCH OPEN THIS YEAR, IT WAS NOTED THAT A LOT OF THE GOOD WOMEN'S MATCHES WERE DURING THE DAY AND NEVER IN THE SORT OF PRIME TIME SLOT IN THE EVENING.

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS A WAY STILL TO GO, EVEN THOUGH IN THE GRAND SLAM THEY HAVE EQUAL PAY?

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE IS STILL A WAY TO GO.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT TENNIS IS ONE OF THE BEST SORT OF GLOBAL SPORTS IN TERMS OF HOW THEY TREAT MEN AND WOMEN.

IT'S DEFINITELY NOT PERFECT.

BUT I FEEL LIKE TENNIS SHOULD PROBABLY CELEBRATE THAT SIDE OF THINGS MORE, THE FACT THAT THERE IS EQUAL PAY, THAT THE MEN AND WOMEN ARE PARTICULARLY AT MAJOR EVENTS, THEY'RE ALWAYS COMPETING ON THE SAME STAGE TOGETHER.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE BRILLIANT THINGS ABOUT TENNIS AND SHOULDN'T BE LOOKED ON NEGATIVELY, I THINK.

IT'S A POSITIVE THING.

IT'S A GREAT MESSAGE.

I FULLY SUPPORT THAT.

>> YOU MENTIONED YOUR MOTHER, THE FAMOUS JUDY MURRAY WHO COACHED YOU, YOUR BROTHER, AND HAS BEEN A POWER IN TENNIS AND IS A FEMALE COACH.

NOW TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE BEING BABY ANDY MURRAY IN THE GRIPS OF YOUR MOM, WHO TURNED YOU INTO THIS.

DID YOU WANT TO DO IT?

>> YEAH, ME AND MY BROTHER, MY MEMORIES OF US GROWING UP, WE JUST PLAYED ALL SPORTS TOGETHER.

WHETHER THAT WAS TABLE TENNIS, SQUASH, GYMNASTICS, GOLF, SOME OF THESE SPORTS WE'D DO WITH OUR DAD.

MY DAD PLAYED A LOT OF SQUASH AND GOLF.

ME AND MY BROTHER WOULD PLAY THAT WITH HIM.

OUR HOLIDAYS, WE JUST PLAYED SPORT.

THAT IS WHAT WE LOVED DOING.

ME AND MY BROTHER 15 MONTHS APART IN AGE.

AND OBVIOUSLY WITH THEIR MOM BEING A TENNIS COACH.

AND PARTICULARLY COACHING YOUNGER PLAYERS, SHE HAD AN UNDERSTANDING OF THOU TEACH NOT JUST TENNIS, BUT, YOU KNOW, OTHER SPORTS AND HAND-EYE COORDINATION, THINGS LIKE THAT.

JUST WE GREW UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, OUR PARENTS, THEY NEVER PUSHED US TO PLAY TENNIS.

THERE WERE TIMES WHEN MY BROTHER STOPPED PLAYING TENNIS FOR SIX MONTHS AND WAS PLAYING GOLF, AND I WAS FOCUSING MORE ON PLAYING FOOTBALL THAN TENNIS.

BUT AT ONE STAGE, WE BOTH DECIDED THAT THAT IS WHAT WE WANTED TO DO.

AND OUR PARENTS WERE UNBELIEVABLY SUPPORTIVE.

ALTHOUGH AT TIMES MONEY WAS TOUGH, THEY DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO GIVE US A CHANCE.

I WENT TO TRAIN OVER IN SPAIN WHEN I WAS 15.

MY BROTHER WENT TO TRAIN IN FRANCE WHEN HE WAS 14, 15 AS WELL.

AND, YEAH, THEY SUPPORTED US AS BEST AS THEY COULD AND GAVE US A CHANCE TO, YOU KNOW, LIVE OUR DREAM, REALLY.

>> APPARENTLY, IT'S BEEN SAID IN THE PRESS THAT YOUR MOTHER WANTS TO CREATE -- I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S A MURRAY CENTER OR A CENTER, A TENNIS CENTER IN DUNBLANE WHERE YOU WERE BORN AND WHERE YOU COME FROM.

AND BILLIE JEAN KING SAID SHE HOPES THE LTA AND OTHERS WILL HELP SUPPORT THAT.

DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN?

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL ALSO GET BEHIND?

>> I HOPE THAT IT HAPPENS.

WHETHER IT WILL OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW, TO BE HONEST.

BUT, YEAH, MY MOM HAS BEEN TRYING FOR A LONG TIME TO TRY AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, A CENTER THAT'S THERE FOR THE COMMUNITY.

YEAH, TO HAVE SOME FORM OF LEGACY FOR WHAT ME AND MY BROTHER HAVE ACHIEVED THROUGHOUT A CAREER, AND THAT HASN'T BEEN THE CASE.

WITH SCOTT AND JEFF AND ME AND MY BROTHER COMING TO THE END OF OUR CAREER IS SOMETHING MY MOM HAS REALLY WANTED.

WITH ME AND JAMIE FINISHING PLAYING CERTAIN, WE'LL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE UP IN SCOTLAND MORE.

AND I WILL ALWAYS LOVE TENNIS AND ALWAYS WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN IT.

AND WILL TRY AND HELP THE NEXT YOUNG, YOU KNOW, BRITISH TENNIS PLAYERS AS MUCH AS I CAN.

AND, YEAH, I THINK IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THERE WAS A TENNIS CENTER UP THERE.

>> MANY PEOPLE TRIED TO TRACE BACK WHERE DOES DRIVE AND AMBITION AND TURNING POINT MOMENTS IN YOUNG PEOPLE'S LIVES COME FROM.

OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED IN DUNBLANE, THE WORST BRITISH SCHOOL SHOOTING IN HISTORY EVER AT YOUR SCHOOL.

DO YOU, WHEN YOU LOOK BACK, THINK THAT THAT GAVE YOU DRIVE?

>> I MEAN, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS I'VE LEARNED FROM THAT THROUGHOUT MY UPBRINGING, THROUGH MY LIFE.

OBVIOUSLY UNBELIEVABLY DIFFICULT.

BUT THE WAY THE WHOLE CITY AND COMMUNITY CAME TOGETHER IN A REALLY DIFFICULT, EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME AND HAS, YOU KNOW, EVENTUALLY NEVER FULLY RECOVERED BUT HAS BECOME STRONGER THROUGH THAT LIKE I DEFINITELY LEARNED A LOT OF STRONG VALUES FROM THAT.

YOU KNOW, I ALSO -- I THINK ALSO FROM GROWING UP WITH A BROTHER VERY CLOSE IN AGE THAT THAT'S SOMETHING I WAS CONSTANTLY COMPETING WITH HIM AS WELL.

AND I THINK THAT THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED SORT OF GROW MY COMPETITIVE INSTINCT AND COMPETITIVE DRIVE.

YEAH.

THAT IS HARD TO PUT YOUR FINGER ON ONE THING.

>> BILLIE JEAN KING, WHO I KNOW YOU AT MIRE A LOT, SAID PRESSURE IS A PRIVILEGE.

AND YET IT SEEMS THAT PRESSURE IS SO INTENSE NOW.

MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT WHEN SHE WAS -- AT HER HEIGHT.

IT SEEMS IT'S EVEN MORE OBVIOUS NOW ON ALL SPORTS, ESPECIALLY TENNIS.

BECAUSE YOU PLAY A VERY LONG SEASON, I MEAN, A LONG YEAR.

IS PRESSURE A PRIVILEGE?

>> I THINK IT IS PROVIDING YOU -- YOU HAVE TO MANAGE PRESSURE IN THE RIGHT WAY.

YOU KNOW, I'VE FOUND PLAYING TENNIS AT TIMES VERY STRESSFUL.

YOU KNOW, THE COMPETING SIDE OF THINGS.

IN THE MOMENT, IT'S NOT SOMETHING I'M REALLY ENJOYING, BUT THE REWARD AT THE END OF IT WHEN YOU WIN IS BRILLIANT.

WHEN YOU LOSE, IT'S HARD, AND YOU NEED STRONG TEAM AROUND YOU TO SUPPORT YOU, YOU KNOW, SUPPORT YOU THROUGH THAT.

BUT I THINK IT HAS CHANGED NOW.

THERE IS A LOT OF FOCUS ON SPORTS ON EVERYONE KNOWS HOW TRICKY SOCIAL MEDIA AND THINGS LIKE THAT CAN BE TO MANAGE AT TIMES.

BUT, YEAH, IT SHOULD BE.

AND I'M AWARE NOW LIKE LOOKING BACK HOW LUCKY I WAS TO BE IN THE POSITION I WAS TO COMPETE FOR WIMBLEDON OR OLYMPIC GAMES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND IF YOU CAN REMIND YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD OR WHEN YOU WERE FIRST STARTING OUT AS A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD HAVE SIGNED UP TO BE IN THIS POSITION AND PLAY ON THE BIGGEST ARENAS AND STAGES IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, YOU'LL BE OKAY.

>> AND IF YOUR FOUR KIDS WANTED TO GO INTO TENNIS OR ANY OTHER COMPETITIVE SPORT, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> YEAH, I'M NOT SAYING I WOULD PUSH THEM TOWARDS TENNIS, BUT I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO BE INVOLVED IN SPORT.

I THINK IT TEACHES LOTS OF AMAZING LESSONS IN LIFE.

YOU KNOW, I GOT TO TRAVEL THE WORLD AS A TENNIS PLAYER FROM 11, 12 YEARS OLD AND EXPERIENCE THINGS THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IF I WASN'T PLAYING IN SPORT, I THINK.

IT TEACHES YOU ABOUT WINNING AND LOSING AND HOW TO WORK HARD AND HOW TO RECOVER FROM SETBACKS AND TEAM WORK.

SO, YEAH, IF THEY WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN SPORTS, I WOULD DEFINITELY ENCOURAGE THAT.

>> ANDY MURRAY, GOOD LUCK IN THE OLYMPICS.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> ANDY MURRAY GETTING READY TO PLAY IN THE DOUBLES FOR THE BRITISH TEAM.

>>> NOW EVERY OLYMPICS DRAWS THE GAZE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND MANAGING THESE GAMES ALSO COMES AT A SENSITIVE TIME FOR FRANCE.

ITS POLITICS REMAIN DIVIDED AFTER A SNAP ELECTION DENIED THE FAR RIGHT BECOMING THE MAJORITY PARTY IN PARLIAMENT.

I ASKED THE FRENCH SPORTS MINISTER AMELIE OUDEA-CASTERA ABOUT HER LABOR OF LOVE, GETTING PARIS READY FOR THE WORLD'S ATHLETES AND SPORTS THAT ARE MEANT TO RISE ABOVE POLITICS.

MADAM MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO, LOOK, IT COULDN'T LOOK MORE MAJESTIC, BEAUTIFUL, UNBELIEVABLE.

BUT YOU'VE BEEN PREPARING FOR AGES.

WHAT IS YOUR FEELING RIGHT NOW ON THE EVE OF THE OPENING CEREMONIES?

>> WELL, IT'S A MIX OF STRESS, BECAUSE WE WANT EVERYTHING TO BE PERFECT.

EXCITE, BECAUSE WE KNOW WE ARE READY, AND, AN AUTHENTIC WIN TO REALLY GIVE HAPPINESS TO THE WHOLE WORLD THROUGH THE OPENING CEREMONY AND THE OLYMPICS, AND TO GIVE A SENSE OF PRIDE TO THE FRENCH PEOPLE.

>> IT'S INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT AT THIS TIME.

THERE IS SO MUCH TO BE UNHAPPY ABOUT AND TO BE NERVOUS ABOUT IN THE WORLD.

YOU'RE RIGHT, THESE SPORTS -- AND WE'RE HEARING ALL THE POLICE SIRENS AND SECURITY.

SECURITY IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE.

CAN YOU ASSURE THE FRENCH PEOPLE AND THE ATHLETES AND THE SPECTATORS THAT THIS IS 100% SAFE?

>> WE PUT ALL EFFORT TO SECURE THAT.

WE'VE BEEN ANTICIPATING ALL TYPES OF THREATS.

WE ARE MONITORING THEM EXTREMELY CLOSELY WITH THE GREATEST ATTENTION.

WE HAVE ALSO MOBILIZED A VERY WIDE NUMBER OF SECURITY FORCES.

EITHER ON THE -- ON THE PUBLIC SIDE WITH 45,000 SECURITY FORCES, ALMOST 20,000 MILITARY FORCES THAT WILL BE FOR THE OPENING CEREMONY, 6,000 PRIVATE SECURITY OFFICERS.

WE ALSO RELY ON INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION ON THE NUMBER OF KEY EXPERTISE.

WE HAVE PUT SOME SECURITY FROM TIME TO TIMERS WELL IN ADVANCE TO SECURE THAT WE CONTROL EVERY MOVE ALL IDENTITIES.

SO WE REALLY HAVE ALIGNED ALL THE CONDITIONS TO MAKE IT A VERY, VERY SAFE PLACE.

>> DOES ANYTHING WORRY YOU IN THE LEAD-UP?

WE'VE HEARD OF SOME CONCERNS.

IS THAT NORMAL RUN OF THE MILL FOR ANY OF THESE KIND OF BIG EVENTS?

>> IT'S NORMAL RUN.

IT'S GOOD THAT WE FIND DIFFICULTIES, WE IDENTIFY PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT BE THERE, PRESENTS SOME RISK.

NOT VERY INTENSE RISKS, BUT IT'S GOOD THAT OUR MEASURES PROVE EFFECTIVE.

WE ARE WATCHING, YOU KNOW, EVERY SINGLE DETAIL AND TRYING TO CONTROL ALL WHAT WE SEE.

SO I'M REALLY CONFIDENT.

I WANT TO SAY HOW HONORED WE ARE TO WELCOME THE WORLD.

WE KNOW IT'S A COMPLEX, FRAGMENTED AND DANGEROUS WORLD.

WE KNOW THERE ARE SOME POSSIBLE ATTACKS.

WE KNOW THERE ARE SOME THREATS, AGAIN.

AND WE HAVE DONE EVERYTHING UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MINISTRY OF INTERIOR AFFAIRS AND THE MINISTER TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS CONTROLLED.

>> AND NOW FOR SOMETHING MORE MUNDANE OR NOT, THE WATER, THE SEINE, WHICH IS THE SITE OF THE OPENING CEREMONIES.

THERE IS WONDERFUL PICTURES OF YOU ALONG WITH THE MAYOR SWIMMING A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

AND YOU'VE PAID A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY AND EFFORT TO CLEANING IT UP, BECAUSE IT'S HUGELY POLLUTED.

ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT IT'S SAFE?

NO E. COLI, NO NOTHING RIGHT NOW?

>> NO, IT WILL BE ABSOLUTELY SAFE.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE MONITOR EVERY DAY EVEN TWICE A DAY.

THE QUALITY OF THE INDICATORS, THE THRESHOLDS, THEIR EVOLUTION, THEIR RESILIENCE TO CHANGES IN WEATHER CONDITIONS AND I CAN SAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE READY.

WE'RE GOING TO BE READY AS SOON AS JULY 30 FOR THE SWIMMING IN THE SEINE, THE SWIMMING MARATHON, AND WE WILL ALSO BE READY FOR THE PARALYMPICS AT THE END OF THE SUMMER.

IT'S BEEN, AS YOU MENTIONED, A VERY LARGE PROJECT WITH HEAVY FUNDING FROM THE STATES.

OVERALL, THE STATES TOGETHER WITH THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, WE'VE INVESTED 1.2 BILLION EUROS IN THAT POSITION.

WE'RE VERY, VERY PROUD THAT WE HAVE COMPLETED 100% OF OUR ACTION PLAN.

>> AND IT WILL BE, EVEN THOUGH MANY OTHER CITIES WHO HOSTED THE OLYMPICS HAVE FABULOUS RIVERS RUNNING THREW THEM, IT WILL BE THE FIRST SUCH OLYMPICS, RIGHT, WHERE THE RIVER IS SUCH A CENTRAL PART OF THE GAMES AND OF THE OPENING CEREMONY.

>> YEAH, AND IT'S GOING TO BE BEAUTIFUL.

AND WHAT'S MORE, IT'S GOING TO BE USEFUL FOR THE FRENCH PEOPLE AND FOR THE TOURISTS AND VISITORS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD BECAUSE IN 2025, WE WILL AUTHORIZE SWIMMING, BATHING FOR EVERYONE.

>> REALLY?

>> SO YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ENJOY WHEN YOU COME TO PARIS NEXT SUMMER A WONDERFUL DIVE IN THE SEINE.

>> YOU SERIOUS?

>> I AM.

>> I'M GOING HOLD YOU TO THAT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO ABOUT SOME OF THE CONTROVERSIES.

AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL, THERE IS A YOUNG FRENCH ATHLETE WHO TOOK TO INSTAGRAM.

SHE IS A FRENCH SPRINTER.

SHE HAS BEEN BARRED FROM WEARING THE HIJAB.

SHE WROTE YOU'RE SELECTED FOR THE OLYMPICS, ORGANIZED IN YOUR COUNTRY, BUT YOU CAN'T PARTICIPATE IN THE OPENING CEREMONY BECAUSE YOU WEAR A HEAD SCARF.

NOW OBVIOUSLY THE OLYMPICS CALL FOR RESPECTING ALL RELIGIONS, AND FRANCE HAS THIS RULE.

ARE YOU TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY THAT SHE CAN BE INCLUDED?

AND IF SO, WHAT WILL THAT BE?

>> YEAH, AND THE ISSUE IS SOLVED.

>> IT'S SOLVED?

>> ACTUALLY, THE ATHLETE, SYLLA, SHE WILL BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OPENING CEREMONY, EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS A FEW WEEKS AGO THROUGH DIALOGUE, EXPLAINING THE RULE, EXPLAINING WHY THAT RULE EXISTS.

IT STAYS ON OUR FRENCH CONSTITUTION.

IT HAS TO BE RESPECTED BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE AN ATHLETE REPRESENTING THE FRENCH TEAM, YOU ARE ASSIMILATED TO SORT OF PUBLIC AGENT, PUBLIC CIVIL SERVANT.

AND BASED ON THIS, YOU NEED TO STICK VERY NEUTRAL RULES, MEANING THAT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO WEAR RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL SIGNS.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO WE EXPLAINED THAT VERY EXTENSIVELY TO HER, EXPLAINING WHY, WHERE DOES IT COME FROM.

IT'S NOT THE WILL OF THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S THE LAW.

AND WE NEED TO OBEY BY THE LAW.

AND SHE UNDERSTANDS PERFECTLY THAT WHEN YOU'RE AN ATHLETE REPRESENTING YOUR COUNTRY AND YOU NEED TO BE EXEMPLARY.

SO WHAT WE DISCUSSED WITH HER IS THE FACT THAT SHE CAN WEAR SOMETHING, BUT NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE ASSIMILATED TO A RELIGIOUS SYMBOL.

>> I SEE.

>> SO SHE CAN COVER HER HEAD SOMEHOW.

>> YEAH, SHE WILL.

TOGETHER WITH THE LDMH, WHO IS PREPARING ALL THE CEREMONY CLOTHES FOR THE ATHLETES, THEY HAVE FIND A WAY SO THAT SHE FEELS GOOD, BUT SHE RESPECTS.

>> SO IT'S A WIN-WIN.

>> THAT'S A WIN-WIN.

AND WE'RE HAPPY.

WHEN YOU'RE BENEVOLENT, WHEN YOU'RE CONSTRUCTIVE, WHEN YOU'RE PRAGMATIC, YOU CAN HAVE A SOLID RESPECT OF YOUR RULES.

BUT WHILE FINDING THE RIGHT, YOU KNOW, AVENUES.

>> YOU CAN FIND A SOLUTION.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IN TALKING ABOUT SCANDALS AND CONTROVERSIES, A CONVICTED CHILD RAPIST IS PLAYING ON THE DUTCH BEACH VOLLEYBALL TEAM.

AND I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO MAKES THE RULES?

WHO HAS THE STANDARDS?

BECAUSE WE HAVE A JAPANESE ATHLETE, A GYMNAST WHO HAS BEEN SENT HOME FOR DRINKING AND SMOKING.

THERE IS A BRITISH EQUESTRIAN WHO HAS BEEN DROPPED BY THE BRITISH TEAM FOR A FOUR-YEAR-OLD WE THINK VIDEO OF HER HITTING A HORSE, ET CETERA.

SO ABOUT THIS KIND OF SITUATION.

>> WELL, THE DUTCH PERSON, I'VE JUST BEEN MADE AWARE OF THAT.

SO IT'S NOT EASY FOR ME TO COMMENT RIGHT NOW.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT OF COURSE AS A WOMAN, I AM SHOCKED TO IMAGINE THAT SOMEONE THAT HAS RAPED A LITTLE GIRL.

>> A CHILD.

>> OF THE OLYMPICS.

BUT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTOOD, HE SPENDS TIME IN JAIL.

HE MADE A NUMBER OF EXCUSES, TREATMENTS.

SO WE NEED TO CHECK.

WE NEED TO FURTHER UNDERSTAND.

>> APOLOGIES?

>> APOLOGIES, HE HAS MADE SOME AS WELL.

BUT I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO REMIND IS THAT THE DECISION TO SELECT AN ATHLETE IS TAKEN BY THE NATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE.

SO IN THAT CASE, THE DUTCH NATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE.

IT'S NOT AT ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FRENCH STATES.

>> THIS HAS BEEN A VERY DIFFICULT YEAR IN POLITICS FOR YOUR COUNTRY.

PRESIDENT MACRON MADE A DRAMATIC POLITICAL GAMBLE TO TRY TO KEEP THE EXTREME RIGHT, THE FAR RIGHT OUT OF POWER.

AND TO AN EXTENT, IT WORKED.

BUT THERE IS A -- WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER.

THE PRESIDENT HAS A LOT OF POLITICAL WORK TO DO, HE SAYS AFTER THE OLYMPICS ARE OVER.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE TUMULTUOUS POLITICS AND WERE YOU AFRAID THAT THAT MIGHT OVERSHADOW THE OLYMPICS, THAT IT COULD HAVE THROWN A SPANNER IN THE WORKS?

I MEAN, ALL THIS HAPPENED JUST A FEW WEEKS BEFORE THE OPENING CEREMONY.

YOU ARE A MINISTER.

>> POLITICS, POLITICAL LIFE, YOU HAVE UPS AND DOWNS, DIFFICULTIES.

I THINK THE FRENCH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY STRONG IN SENDING A MESSAGE THAT THEY DO NOT WANT THE FAR RIGHT, THE EXTREMES TO REALLY COMMAND AND DRIVE THE COUNTRY.

THIS WAS A MESSAGE MADE CLEAR BY THE FRENCH PEOPLE.

AND I THINK AT THE TIME WHERE WE WELCOMED THE WORLD, WHERE WE WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE OF OPENNESS, OF PEACE, OF COMFORT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMIND THAT.

WHAT I WANT TO SAY ALSO IS THAT YES, IT'S BEEN INTENSE WEEK ON THE POLITICAL SIDE, BUT IT NEVER JEOPARDIZED THE QUALITY OF THE PREPARATION, BECAUSE WE REMAINED HIGHLY FOCUSED.

I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE CAMPAIGN.

SO I KEPT WORKING WITH ALL THE TEAMS TO REALLY SECURE THAT EVERY STEP WAS DOING -- WAS DONE THE WAY IT HAD TO BE DONE.

NOW I THINK IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY BOTH FOR THE COUNTRY TO REUNITE, TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH, TO ENJOY SPORTS, TO BE PROUD OF THEIR ATHLETES, TO BE PROUD OF THEMSELVES, TO REALIZE THAT FRANCE IS A GREAT COUNTRY.

PEOPLE DO GREAT THINGS.

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, I THINK IT'S ALSO A USEFUL MOMENT FOR THE POLITICAL PARTIES TO KEEP WORKING TOGETHER TO FIND THE RIGHT COMBINATIONS, THE RIGHT SOLUTIONS SO THAT WE HAVE A WORKABLE PLAN AND SECURE THAT ONCE THE OLYMPICS ARE OVER, WE CAN GO ON AND KEEP DRIVING THE NECESSARY REFORMS.

>> FINALLY, CELINE DION HAS BEEN NOTICED IN PARIS.

IS SHE GOING PERFORM AT THE OPENING CEREMONIES?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I WANT TO KEEP THE SURPRISE.

WE'VE BEEN HOLDING THE SECRETS FOR MONTHS.

I'M NOT GOING CRACK DOWN NOW JUST THE DAY BEFORE.

BUT SHE IS NOT HERE JUST BY CHANCE.

>> OKAY.

WELL, YOU NEARLY GAVE AWAY THE SECRET.

MADAM MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANKS TO YOU.

>> THANKS FOR MEETING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> AND THE MINISTER IS A FORMER ATHLETE.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO GENDER AND SEX IN SPORT, THE CONVERSATION CAN OFTEN BE FRAUGHT AT THIS YEAR'S GAMES TRANS ATHLETES ARE SUBJECT TO STRICTER RULES AND REGULATIONS THAN BEFORE.

THOUGH THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A RECENT ISSUE, IT'S ACTUALLY A TOPIC THAT GOES BACK TO THE 1930S.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS," HISTORIAN MICHAEL WATERS DETAILS THE STORIES OF TRANS ATHLETES WHO COMPETED BACK THEN.

AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES THEY FACED.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

MICHAEL WATERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT.

AND IN THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT HERE, IT IS CALLED "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS: FASCISM, QUEERNESS AND THE MAKING OF MODERN SPORTS."

WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME, WHEN YOU THINK OF 1936, THE STORY LINE YOU USUALLY THINK OF IS JESSE OWENS.

THERE IT IS, IN BERLIN, BEING HOSTED BY THE NAZIS.

BUT YOU FOUND REALLY FASCINATING AN ALTERNATE STORY THAT I HAD NEVER HEARD OF.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THESE TWO ATHLETES, TRANS ATHLETES WHO WERE THERE AT THE TIME, AND THEY PUBLICLY TRANSITIONED.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ATHLETES THAT YOU PROFILE.

>> YEAH.

SO I WROTE ABOUT ZDENEK KOVAC WHO IS THIS CORRECT RUNNER WHO WON GOLD IN THIS COMPETITION CALLED THE WOMEN'S WORLD GAMES, WHICH IS A RIVAL TO THE OLYMPICS IN THE 1930S.

HIS MAIN SPORT -- HE WAS ASSIGNED FEMALE AT BIRTH.

HE PLAYED IN WOMEN SPORTS BEFORE TRANSITIONING.

AND HIS MAIN SPORT WAS THE 800 METERS WHICH WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE OLYMPICS OF THE TIME.

THERE ARE VERY FEW SPORTS FOR WOMEN AT THE OLYMPICS, ESPECIALLY IN TRACK AND FIELD IN THE 1930S.

SO HE WINS GOLD AT REALLY THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF COMPETITION AVAILABLE TO HIM IN 1934.

AND HE SETS A NEW WORLD RECORD IN THE PROCESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE KIND OF BECOMES THIS LOCAL SPORTS CELEBRITY IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA WHERE HE IS FROM AND PERHAPS THROUGHOUT EUROPE.

AND ESSENTIALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS AFTER WINNING GOLD, HE STEPPED AWAY FROM SPORTS FOR A BIT, AND HE SORT OF DECIDES TO WRESTLE WITH THESE QUESTIONS HE'S ALWAYS HAD ABOUT HIS OWN SELF-IDENTITY.

AFTER WINNING GOLD, HE STEPS AWAY FROM SPORTS AND STARTS CONSULTING A DOCTOR ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF TRANSITIONING.

AND HE HAS THESE CONSULTATIONS, AND THEN HE DECIDES THAT GOING FORWARD, HE IS GOING TO BE LIVING AS A MAN.

AND IN LATE NOVEMBER 1935, HE ANNOUNCES THE CZECH PRESS HE IS TRANSITIONING GENDER AND LIVING AS A MAN AND WANTS TO PLAY IN MEN'S SPORTS IN THE FUTURE.

AND A FEW DAYS LATER IN EARLY DECEMBER, THAT NEWS GETS PICKED UP AND IT BECOMES THIS REALLY BIG INTERNATIONAL NEWS STORY FOR SEVERAL WEEKS AND EVENTUALLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE OF 1936, A YEAR WHEN THE BERLIN OLYMPICS HAPPENED, ALL TALKING ABOUT THIS ATHLETE WHO TRANSITIONED GENDER.

SO KOVAC WAS THE FIRST, BUT A FEW MONTHS LATER THERE IS THIS OTHER ATHLETE WHO WAS A LITTLE LESS SUCCESSFUL, BUT SIMILARLY WAS ASSIGNED TO FEMALE AT BIRTH, PLAYED IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

HIS NAME WAS MARK WESTON.

HE WAS BRITISH SHOT PUTTER.

IN MAY 1936, SO SEVERAL MONTHS AFTER KOVAC TRANSITIONED, HE TOO GAVE THIS INTERVIEW IN WHICH HE SAID THAT HE WAS LIVING AS MAN.

AND SO TOGETHER THEY REALLY CREATED THIS GLOBAL NEWS STORY IN 1936.

THAT SUMMER RIGHT AHEAD OF THE OLYMPICS ABOUT, JUST LIKE THE MEANING OF TRANSITION AND OF THESE CATEGORY OF MALE AND FEMALE THEMSELVES, WHICH I THINK YOU SAW THE PRESS TALKING ABOUT IN THIS.

REALLY INTERESTING FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> WHAT WAS THAT COVERAGE LIKE?

IT'S HARD FOR US TO IMAGINE HOW THE WORLD WAS ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO.

BUT HOW WERE PEOPLE APPROACHING THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE WHO WAS BORN A WOMAN, WHO WOULD WANT TO BE COMPETING IN MEN'S SPORTS?

>> YEAH.

SO I MEAN SO 1935 AND 1936 WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING, THIS WAS AN ERA BEFORE THERE WAS A CONCEPT OF GENDER AS LIKE THIS PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTINCT FROM BIOLOGICAL SEX.

SO WHEN THESE ATHLETES WERE WRITTEN ABOUT, IT WAS PURELY IN TERMS OF THE BODY.

BUT THE MID 1930S ARE ALSO THE KIND OF THE END OF THIS ERA OF REALLY VISIBLE QUEERNESS IN A LOT OF CITIES IN EUROPE AND THE IN THE U.S.

ESPECIALLY.

AND YOU HAD IN GERMANY WHICH IS RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA, YOU HAD MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD WAS W.H.O.

WAS THIS REALLY PROMINENT SEXOLOGIST WHO OFFERED MEDICAL CARE TO TRANS AND INTERSEX PEOPLE IN THE 1920S AND 1930S.

YOU KNOW, HE HELPED TO BRING FORWARD THESE IDEAS THAT PERHAPS THERE IS A LOT MORE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE BODY AND WHAT WE CALL GENDER TODAY AND ABOUT TRANSITION.

THERE IS AN ERA WHERE EVERY FEW MONTHS THERE IS A NEW DISCOVERY ABOUT THE BODY AND ABOUT SEX AND SEXUALITY.

SO I THINK THE PUBLIC WAS QUITE PRIMED TO SEE -- TO ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN THEY GENERALLY UNDERSTOOD ABOUT HOW SORT OF SEX WORKED AND HOW THESE CATEGORIES OF MALE AND FEMALE WORKED.

AND WHAT REALLY STRUCK ME IS THAT A LOT OF THE COVERAGE OF KOVAC AND WESTON, THESE TWO ATHLETES WHO TRANSITIONED GENDER IS QUITE EMPATHETIC.

THEY GOT THE PRONOUNCE WRONG.

THEY USED SOME WORDS THAT WE WOULDN'T USE TODAY TO DESCRIBE THESE ATHLETES.

AND THERE WAS CERTAINLY A FAIR BIT OF SENSATIONALISM OF THESE ATHLETES AND THIS IDEA OF TRANSITION.

BUT THROUGH IT ALL I THINK THERE IS THIS REAL CURIOSITY FROM THE PUBLIC AND FROM JOURNALIST ABOUT WHAT IT MEAN TO MOVE BETWEEN THESE CATEGORIES.

>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ANOTHER ATHLETE YOU WRITE ABOUT, HELEN STEVENS.

>> HELEN STEVENS, SHE IS KIND OF FORGOTTEN COMPARED TO JESSE OWENS.

SHE WAS PROBABLY THE SECOND MOST FAMOUS AMERICAN ATHLETE AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS IN 1936.

SO SHE IS THIS TRACK RUNNER FROM MISSOURI.

AND SHE, YOU KNOW, IS A WOMAN -- THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT FOR MEN, BUT WE CAN IDENTIFY THE CIS WOMEN TODAY.

SHE BECAUSE OF A CHILDHOOD ACCIDENT HAD THIS VERY DEEP VOICE.

SHE ALSO HAD JUST BIG BICEPS.

SHE WAS OFTEN SORT OF NOTICED FOR HER PERCEIVED MASCULINITY.

AND SHE BASICALLY IN 1936 AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS, SHE IS ONE OF THE TOP U.S.

ATHLETES.

SHE EVENTUALLY WINS A GOLD MEDAL AT THE SAME DAY AS JESSE OWENS WINS HIS GOLD.

AND THERE IS ALL THIS SCRUTINY.

SORT OF IN PART BECAUSE OF THESE -- BECAUSE OF KOVAC AND WESTON, THE TWO ATHLETES WHO HAD TRANSITIONED GENDER.

THERE IS ALL THIS EXTRA SCRUTINY AND HEIGHTENED SCRUTINY ON WOMEN'S SPORTS AND ON ATHLETES WHO ARE JUST PERCEIVED TO BE MASCULINE IN SOME WAY.

AND HELEN STEVENS HAS ALWAYS SORT OF DEALT WITH THIS.

BUT IT REALLY COMES TO A HEAD AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS.

AND THERE WAS THIS NEW STORY.

AFTER SHE WINS GOLD, THERE IS THIS NEW STORY PUBLISHED ABOUT HER IN THIS POLISH NEWSPAPER THAT ESSENTIALLY ACCUSES HER OF BEING LIKE A MAN IN DISGUISE.

AND IT'S NOT TOTALLY CLEAR WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT AT THE VERY LEAST, YOU SAW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE PRESS THIS IDEA OF, LIKE, EXAMINING PEOPLE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD BE IN WOMEN SPORTS.

AND REALLY COMING OUT OF THIS MOMENT OF FEARMONGERING ABOUT THIS REALLY PROMINENT AMERICAN ATHLETE.

>> THERE IS AN INTERESTING CHARACTER YOU WRITE ABOUT KIND OF IT'S BEHIND THIS INTEREST IN FIGURING OUT HOW TO TEST ATHLETES.

HIS NAME IS WILHELM NOEL.

TELL US ABOUT HIM.

WHO WAS HE?

>> YEAH, SO KOVAC TRANSITIONED, ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS TRANSITIONING GENDER AT THE END OF 1935.

AND LIKE I SAID, IT BECOMES GLOBAL NEWS STORY THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT REALLY WITH THIS SENSE OF CURIOSITY ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF TRANSITION.

AND SO WHILE THE PUBLIC IS KIND OF CURIOUS ABOUT LITERALLY HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE BETWEEN THESE CATEGORIES LIKE WHAT ARE THE MEDICAL ADVANCES THAT SORT OF ALLOW THIS, YOU DO SEE THIS SMALL GROUP OF SPORTS OFFICIALS WHO HAD A VERY DIFFICULT REACTION.

AND THE MOST PROMINENT AMONG THEM IS WILHELM KNOLL IN 1936 WRITES THIS OP-ED, ESSENTIALLY ACCUSING KOVAC OF BEING A FRAUD AND DECEITABLE IN SOME WAY.

AND KNOLL SEEMED TO TAKE ISSUE WITH THE FACT THAT KOVAC HAD BEEN IN WOMEN SPORTS AT ALL.

KNOLL FOR BACKGROUND CONTEXT, HE WAS A QUITE INFLUENTIAL SPORTS DOCTOR IN 1936.

HE WAS THE HEAD OF THIS GROUP OF SPORTS DOCTORS WHO ADVISED, YOU KNOW, THE IOC, THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION.

THIS IS A VERY EARLY ERA OF SPORTS SCIENCE.

SO HE, DESPITE THE NATURE OF HAVING THAT POSITION HAD A LOT OF CACHE.

HE WAS ALSO A REGISTERED NAZI AT THE TIME.

AND HE WAS REALLY AN ARDENT BELIEVER.

HE WORE THE BROWN SHIRT UNIFORM TO CLASSES, AND HE SERIOUSLY SEPARATELY FROM KOVAC, HE WANTED TO ELIMINATE JEWISH ATHLETES, ATHLETES OF COLOR FROM SPORTS IN GENERAL.

HE KIND OF HAS A TENDENCY BECAUSE OF HIS BELIEF IN EUGENICS TO PUSH OUT ATHLETES.

AND HE SAW KOVAC AND THIS TRANSITION AS IS SOME KIND OF THREAT.

SOMETHING THAT NEEDED TO BE WEEDED OUT.

>> TELL ME, FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE HISTORY OF HOW THESE POLICIES HAVE EVOLVED, WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE WORLD OF INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION WHEN IT COMES TO IDENTIFYING GENDER OR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE?

BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE WE SHIFTED AWAY FROM KIND OF A PHYSICAL SCIENTIFIC MEASURES.

>> THE ORIGINAL POLICIES WERE LIKE YOU SAID.

THEY WERE JUST PHYSICAL EXAMS.

THEY WOULD STRIP TEST WOMEN ATHLETES.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING FOR, WHICH KINDS OF BODIES WOULD BE ALLOWED, WHICH WOULDN'T.

THAT WAS NEVER OUTLINED IN THE EARLY YEARS.

EVENTUALLY THAT RAN INTO A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

SOLVE AS SEX TESTING GREW, SPORTS OFFICIALS BEGAN EMBRACING A CHROMOSOME-BASED TEST, WHICH ESSENTIALLY WOULD TRY TO DELINEATE ATHLETES BY TESTING THEIR CHROMOSOMES.

THE PROBLEM WAS THERE ARE A LOT OF LIKE ATHLETES WHO WOULD PROBABLY IDENTIFY AS CIS WOMEN TODAY THAT HAVE MULTIPLE CHROME SOMES.

THEY WERE QUIETLY EXPELLED FROM THE OLYMPICS IN THE '60S AND '70S AND '80S.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF BACKLASH SO THE POLICY SWITCHED OVER TO TESTING HORMONE LEVELS.

TODAY WHAT WE HAVE IS A GRAB BAG OF DIFFERENT POLICIES.

SO THE IOC, THE INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, WHICH MAKES A LOT OF THESE OVERARCHING POLICIES, THEY'VE ACTUALLY SAID THAT THEY NO LONGER WANT TO SET THE TERMS OF ELIGIBILITY FOR WOMEN ATHLETES.

AND THEY RELEASED A STATEMENT IN 2021 THAT TALKED ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE MORE INCLUSION OF TRANS GENDER SEX WOMEN IN SPORTS.

BUT THEY LEFT IT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL FEDERATION.

SO THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION, FOR EXAMPLE, TO SORT OF GOVERN THEIR OWN GROUP OF SPORTS SIMPLY.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT.

IN A LOT OF CASES, THESE POLICIES HAVE BECOME QUITE RESTRICTIVE AND HAVE -- NEARLY -- AND IN MANY CASES BANNED NEARLY ALL TRANS WOMEN FROM COMPETING IN THE OLYMPICS, ALSO HAVE SET REALLY HARD LIMITS ON WOMEN WHO MIGHT FIT ON THE SPECTRUM AND EVEN WOMEN WHO HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS, THEY PUT LIMITATIONS ON WHETHER THEY CAN PLAY AND HOW THEY CAN PLAY.

IT REALLY DEPENDS NOW BASED ON SPORTS.

THE CURRENT POLICY IS REALLY DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON WHAT SPORT YOU LOOK AT.

BUT THAT SAME CONCEPT OF WE'RE GOING TO REGULATE LIKE WHICH KIND OF WOMEN CAN COMPETE, I THINK YOU CAN SORT OF DRAW A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN 1936 AND TODAY, EVEN AS THE POLICIES THEMSELVES HAVE GOTTEN VERY DIFFICULT AND THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING TESTED HAS GOTTEN VERY DIFFERENT.

>> IN AN OP-ED YOU WROTE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," YOU MENTIONED THIS OLYMPICS THE SEX TESTING POLICIES WILL BE EVEN MORE EXTREME THAN IN YEARS PAST.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THESE INTERNATIONAL FEDERATIONS, THESE SORT OF LIKE SPORTS ORGANIZATIONS THAT I MENTIONED THAT GOVERN SOMETHING LIKE TRACK AND FIELD OR SWIMMING HAVE ACTUALLY GOTTEN STRICTER ON ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS.

SO IF YOU JUST LOOK AT TRACK AND FIELD, FOR INSTANCE, A FEW YEARS AGO AT THE OLYMPICS, THERE WAS A PATH TO INCLUSION FOR TRANS WOMEN ATHLETES IN TRACK AND FIELD.

IT WOULD INVOLVE KEEPING THEIR HORMONE LEVELS LIKE IN A CERTAIN RANGE.

SO IT WAS DIFFICULT, BUT THERE WAS A WAY FOR A TRANS WOMAN COULD THEORETICALLY COMPETE.

NOW THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION HAS GOTTEN RID OF THAT ENTIRELY AND ALL BUT BANNED TRANS WOMEN.

SO I THINK YOU SEE SORT OF A SIMILAR STORY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT SPORTS IS THAT THESE POLICIES ARE GETTING STRICTER, EVEN AS THE IOC, WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE THE TOP OF THIS GOVERNING BUREAUCRACY SPORTS STRUCTURE, EVEN AS IOC IS SAYING WE WANT MORE SPORTS INCLUSION, NOT A LOT OF THE SPORTS FEDERATIONS HAVE TAKEN THEM UP ON THAT.

>> THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A TOPIC FOR AMERICAN POLITICAL CULTURE WARS.

ONE OF THE CORE CONCERNS FOR PEOPLE IS THIS NOTION OF FAIRNESS.

AND IN COMPETITIONS LIKE, SAY, TRACK AND FIELD, IT'S LITERALLY WHO GETS ACROSS THE LINE FIRST, AND WHETHER OR NOT HAS AN INHERENT ADVANTAGE, PERHAPS BECAUSE OF THEIR BIOLOGY.

WHAT'S -- WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

IS THERE A PROBLEM IN THAT THINKING?

>> THERE IS STILL MUCH FIXATION ON TRANS INTERSEX WOMEN IN SPORTS.

AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT SAME KIND OF DIALOGUE ABOUT MANY OTHER KIENLDS OF PERCEIVED ADVANTAGES THAT ARE JUST SORT OF BAKED INTO HOW WE THINK ABOUT SPORTS.

SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE BASKETBALL, YOU KNOW, IT CERTAINLY HELPS TO BE TALL.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO REGULATE THE HEIGHTS OF BASKETBALL PLAYERS.

EVEN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE EFFORTS TO REGULATE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN WOMEN, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T DO THE SAME THING IN MEN'S SPORTS.

AND IF THE IDEA IS THAT TESTOSTERONE LEVELS CONFER SOME KIND OF UNFAIR ATHLETIC ADVANTAGE, YOU KNOW, MEN HAVE THE SAME DIVERSITY OF TESTOSTERONE LEVELS AS WOMEN.

SO WHY WOULD WE ALSO LIMIT MEN'S TESTOSTERONE LEVELS?

IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO GO DOWN THAT PATH.

THAT'S NOT EVEN TO MENTION, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE LIKE MICHAEL PHELPS WHO IS BORN WITH THIS REALLY SPECIFIC GENETIC CONDITION THAT GIVES HIM A LONG WINGSPAN THAT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE PERFECT FOR SWIMMING.

SORE SOME OF THESE MORE INVISIBLE TYPES OF ADVANTAGE LIKE CLASS EARLY ON IN YOUR SPORTS CAREER, WHETHER YOU CAN PAY FOR TRAINERS OR TO GO TO SOME KIND OF SUMMER CAMP AND WORK YOUR WAY UP IN SPORTS CAN REALLY INFLUENCE WHETHER YOU CAN MAKE TO IT THIS ELITE LEVEL.

AND ALL THIS IS TO SAY THAT I THINK A GREAT THING ABOUT THE OLYMPICS IS IT BRINGS TOGETHER A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND EXPERIENCES.

AND PEOPLE WHO SORT OF EXIST ON THE SPECTRUM OF BODIES, AN EXPERIENCE THAT WE ALL DO.

AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN'T REGULATE AND WE ACCEPT THAT WE CAN'T REGULATE.

TO ME IT IS QUITE TELLING TO SEE THE FIXATION ON TRANS WOMEN IN SPORTS AND INTERSEX WOMEN IN SPORTS SPECIFICALLY.

AND ALSO WOMEN WHO HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN A WAY THAT WE DON'T FIXATE ON ANY OF THESE OTHER THINGS.

THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY, IT STRIKES ME THAT WE'VE BEEN HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION KIND OF OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND OFTEN ERASED FROM ALL OF THIS IS THE ATHLETES THEMSELVES AND JUST THEIR HUMANITY.

AND ALSO JUST LIKE THE IMMENSE SKILL IT TAKES TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU COULD MAYBE GO THE OLYMPICS.

THESE ARE ALL ATHLETES OF LIKE UNBELIEVABLE SKILL WHO HAVE PUT IN YEARS AND YEARS OF THEIR LIVES INTO THIS SPORT.

SO TO ME IT'S JUST A KIND OF UNTHINKABLE THAT WE WOULD THEN SAY ACTUALLY YOU DON'T MEET THIS SORT OF SUBJECTIVE EVER-CHANGING DEFINITION OF WOMAN, SO THEREFORE YOU CAN'T COMPETE.

YEAH.

I GUESS THAT'S SORT OF WHAT I'VE GLEANED FROM LOOKING AT THE HISTORY.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS: FASCISM, QUEERNESS AND THE MAKE OF MODERN SPORTS."

MICHAEL WATERS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND AS WE SAID EARLIER, THESE OLYMPICS MARK A HISTORIC HOMECOMING FOR PARIS, THE FIRST TIME IT'S HOSTED THE SUMMER GAMES WAS 100 YEARS AGO BACK IN 1924.

AN OLYMPICS THAT HAS BEEN EMBEDDED IN CINEMATIC HISTORY EVER SINCE BECAUSE THE AMERICAN SWIMMER BACK THEN, JOHNNY WEISSMULLER SHOT TO STARDOM AFTER WINNING THREE GOLD MEDALS HERE IN PARIS, AND THEN HE WENT ON TO STAR IN 12 TARZAN MOVIES.

>> I'M JANE PARKER.

UNDERSTAND?

JANE, JANE.

>> JANE, JANE.

JANE.

>> JANE.

YOU?

JANE.

>> JANE.

>> BUT PERHAPS MOST FAMOUSLY THE STORY OF THE BRITISH RUNNERS HEADED FOR GLORY AT PARIS 1924 WAS THE INSPIRATION FOR THE LEGENDARY FILM "CHARIOTS OF FIRE."

SO WHO KNOWS?

PERHAPS THE CINEMA HEROES OF TOMORROW WILL BE BORN OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS HERE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM PARIS.

AND OF COURSE WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU I KNOW WITH A LITTLE "CHARIOTS OF FIRE."

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