07.30.2024

July 30, 2024

American Doctors Mark Perlmutter and Feroze Sidhwa relay what they witnessed during a treacherous journey into Gaza. International Correspondent Ben Wedeman and analyst Kim Ghattas on the Beirut explosion this morning. Nina Jankowicz, former head of the Disinformation Governance Board, explains how women — and Kamala Harris in particular — are the primary targets of online abuse.

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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

A HEARTBREAKING SNAPSHOT OF CHILDHOOD IN GAZA, WHERE MOMENTS OF JOY AND TRAGEDY COLLIDE.

>>> THEN INTO THE WAR ZONE.

TWO AMERICAN SURGEONS TELL ME WHAT THEY SAW IN THE OPERATING ROOMS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WOMEN CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE ARE BEING TARGETED IN DROVES.

>> THE DARK SIDE OF THE WEB.

MISINFORMATION EXPERT NINA JANKOWICZ BRINGS HARI SREENIVASAN INTO THE SEXIST WORLD OF ONLINE ABUSE AND DEEPFAKES.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

RESIDENTS OF KHAN YOUNIS, GAZA ARE RETURNING HOME AFTER THE ISRAELI MILITARY WITHDREW FROM THE AREA FOLLOWING A WEEK-LONG RAID.

HOPES FOR A CEASEFIRE SEEM NO CLOSER TO FRUITION AS NEGOTIATIONS DRAG ON.

CAUGHT UP IN ALL THIS CHAOS ARE INNOCENT CHILDREN.

THE 12 KILLED IN THE ISRAELI OCCUPIED GOLAN HEIGHTS AND THE MANY CHILDREN KILLED IN GAZA UNDER ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT.

LAST MONTH THE U.N. OFFICE OF THE HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ESTIMATED NEARLY 15,000 CHILDREN MAY HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th, A NUMBER THAT CONTINUES TO RISE.

FOR THE CHILDREN IN GAZA, LIFE UNDER BOMBARDMENT IS A DISORIENTING VIOLENT EXPERIENCE, WHERE JOY AND DEATH LIVE SIDE BY SIDE, AS JOMANA KARADSHEH REPORTS.

AND A WARNING, SOME OF THE IMAGES YOU'RE TO BE SEE ARE GRAPHIC.

>> Reporter: EVERYTHING WE'RE ABOUT TO SHOW YOU WAS FILMED OVER THE COURSE OF FOUR HOURS IN A SINGLE DAY.

A SNAPSHOT OF NINE MONTHS OF WAR FOR GAZA'S CHILDREN.

NOTHING CAN ERASE WHAT THESE LITTLE EYES HAVE SEEN, BUT THEY'VE COME HERE TO TRY TO FORGET, EVEN IF JUST FOR A LITTLE WHILE.

AS THESE CHILDREN WERE ON THE WAY TO QUEUE UP FOR WATER, ONE OF THE NEWFOUND HARDSHIPS OF THIS MISERABLE LIFE WHEN THEY STOPPED FOR A MAKESHIFT PUPPET SHOW.

KHAN'S CARDBOARD AND STRING, IT'S A DISTRACTION, BUT KIDS HAVE TO RELATE TO THEIR MAKE BELIEF FRIENDS WITH STORIES JUST LIKE THEIRS.

>> 12-YEAR-OLD HALA LONGS FOR THE DAY WHEN SHE HAD A HOME IN GAZA CITY.

♪♪♪ >> Reporter: THIS MIGHT SEEM LIKE A SURREAL SCENE, BUT IN TIMES OF WAR, LIFE DOES GO ON, AS DOES THE HORROR.

IN THE SAME AREA OF GAZA, INJURED CHILDREN ARRIVE INTO ONE OF THE LAST HARDLY STANDING HOSPITALS.

IT'S A CONSTANT STREAM OF CASUALTIES FROM AN ISRAELI STRIKE NEARBY.

AMONG THEM A SEVERELY INJURED TODDLER.

HE CLINGS ON TO THE STRANGER WHO BROUGHT HIM HERE.

THERE IS NO ROOM LEFT.

THEY LEAVE HIM ON THE FLOOR.

HIS CRIES, HIS PAIN DROWNED OUT BY THE CHAOS.

OUTSIDE, ANOTHER AMBULANCE PULLS UP WITH ANOTHER BOY, HERE FOR THE MORGUE.

IT WASN'T THE BOMBS THAT KILLED HIM.

HE STARVED TO DEATH, HIS FATHER SAYS, AS THEY PREPARE HIM FOR BURIAL, HIS EMACIATED BODY LAYS BARE FOR THE WORLD TO SEE WHAT ISRAEL'S SIEGE HAS DONE TO GAZA'S MOST VULNERABLE.

>> Reporter: A BROKEN FATHER, LIKE SO MANY PARENTS WHO HELPLESSLY WATCH THEIR CHILDREN DIE IN THEIR ARMS.

THEIR SUFFERING HAS BECOME A STATISTIC BY WHICH THE WORLD THAT WATCHES ON MEASURES THE AWFULNESS OF THIS WAR.

HIS NAME WAS MOHAMMAD AL KALUB.

HE WAS ONLY 9.

BORN WITH CEREBRAL PALSY, HE DIED BY A GARBAGE DUMP WHERE HIS DISPLACED FAMILY WAS FORCED TO CAMP.

BACK INSIDE THE EMERGENCY ROOM, THAT TODDLER IS STILL ON THE FLOOR, BARELY CONSCIOUS.

SURROUNDED BY MEDICS, BUT NO FAMILY BY HIS SIDE.

NO ONE KNOWS HIS NAME.

THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN LIKE HIM HAVE ARRIVED TO HOSPITALS INJURED AND ALONE THROUGHOUT THIS WAR.

WE FOUND THAT TODDLER DAYS LATER AT ANOTHER HOSPITAL.

HIS NAME IS ABDEL.

IN INTENSIVE CARE, HE HASN'T UTTERED A WORD SINCE THE ATTACK.

THE SHOCK IS STILL CLEAR BEHIND HIS GLASSY EYES.

THE DIRT STILL UNDER HIS FINGERNAILS.

IT'S HIS AUNT WHO IS HERE WITH HIM.

HIS MOTHER WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED.

KAMAL STILL DOESN'T KNOW HIS 14-MONTH-OLD SISTER IS GONE.

DAYS AFTER OUR CAMERAMAN FILMED HIM IN THE ICU, WE RECEIVED THE NEWS THAT KAMAN DID NOT SURVIVE.

HE WAS 3.

♪♪♪ IT'S ONE DAY SHOWING HOW FRAGILE EXISTENCE IS IN THIS PLACE WHERE LIFE, DEATH, AND STOLEN MOMENTS OF JOY MEET.

>> THANKS TO JOMANA KARADSHEH FOR THAT IMPORTANT REPORTING THERE.

>>> WELL, THIS SPRING TWO AMERICAN DOCTORS MADE THE TREACHEROUS JOURNEY INTO GAZA TO TRY AND OFFER THEIR SERVICES IN THIS DESPERATE SITUATION.

WHAT THEY FOUND WAS FAR WORSE THAN THEY HAD EXPECTED, AS HEY RECENTLY WROTE FOR POLITICO, "WHAT WE SAW WAS UNSPEAKABLE."

DRS.

MARK PERLMUTTER AND FEROZ SIDHWA JOIN THE PROGRAM TO RELAY WHAT THEY WITNESSED AND THE URGENT NEED TO END THE VIOLENCE.

DOCTORS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE SHOULD NOTE THAT BOTH OF YOU VOLUNTEERED AT THE GAZA EUROPEAN HOSPITAL IN KHAN YOUNIS FOR TWO WEEKS AT THE END OF MARCH INTO EARLY APRIL AND HAVE A COMBINED 57 YEARS OF VOLUNTEERING IN DISASTER AND WAR ZONES.

SO WE SHOULD COMMEND YOU FOR YOUR HUMANITARIAN AID ALL OF THESE YEARS, ESPECIALLY NOW.

LET ME START WITH YOU, DR. PERLMUTTER.

WHAT SURPRISED YOU MOST OR STOOD OUT TO YOU IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU SAW DURING YOUR TIME THERE IN GAZA?

>> RETROSPECTIVELY, WHAT SURPRISED ME MOST WAS NOT THE ANTICIPATED EFFECT OF A 2,000 POUND OR 500 POUND AMERICAN BOMB BEING DROPPED ON A TENT CITY, BOMBS THAT WERE DESIGNED FOR BUSTING BUNKERS IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT RATHER HOW THE CARNAGE THAT WAS INDUCED REALLY FOCUSED ON CHILDREN, HEALTH CARE WORKERS, AND JOURNALISTS.

THOSE THAT WERE THE MOST INNOCENT, THOSE THAT PROVIDED CARE, AND THOSE THAT WOULD REPORT TO THE WORLD THE ACCURACY OF THE CARNAGE WERE SPECIFICALLY TARGETED.

>> WHEN YOU SAY "SPECIFICALLY TARGETED, CAN YOU GO MORE INTO DETAIL?

>> SURE.

WE FOUND CHILDREN, MANY WORKERS FOUND CHILDREN, NOT JUST MYSELF THAT HAD HIGH VELOCITY BULLET WOUNDS, SNIPER WOUNDS, RIFLE WOUNDS THAT WERE DEAD CENTER IN THE CHEST.

I MENTIONED OTHER REPORTERS THAT I COULDN'T PUT MY STETHOSCOPE MORE DEAD CENTER OVER A HEART THAN THE ENTRANCE BULLET HOLE WAS.

THERE WAS NO BACK TO THESE CHILDREN.

THE BULLET HAD REMOVED NEVER ENTIRE TORSO.

THERE WAS A SIMILAR BULLET HOLE IN TWO OF THE CHILDREN'S TEMPLES.

SO THEY WERE SHOT TWICE.

ONCE WAS CERTAINLY A KILL SHOT.

THE SECOND ONE WAS WHEN THEY WERE ON THE GROUND.

AND SO NO SNIPER HITS A CHILD, AND I'M TALKING TODDLERS, TWICE BY MISTAKE.

AND SO -- THAT FINDING WAS DUPLICATED BY MANY HEALTH CARE WORKERS, THAT CHILDREN WERE SPECIFICALLY ARGUED THE BY HIGH VELOCITY RIFLE BULLET WOUNDS.

AND THEN THERE WAS A PLETHORA OF HEALTH CARE WORKERS WITH HORRIBLE STORIES OF BEING SPECIFICALLY TARGETED.

AND THEN OF COURSE JOURNALISTS WERE EITHER ASSASSINATED, NOT ALLOWED BACK INTO THE COUNTRY, OR HAD THEIR EQUIPMENT DESTROYED.

>> YEAH, AND AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, THAT'S QUITE AN EXTREME ALLEGATION TO MAKE, THAT THESE CIVILIANS WERE INDEED TARGETED.

THESE ARE ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU MADE IN A CBS NEWS INTERVIEW, AND AN ID F SPOKESPERSON IN RESPONSE TO THAT SAID THE IDF HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER DELIBERATELY TARGET CHILDREN.

THE IDF STRESSED THAT IT CALLS AN ASK FOR THE EVACUATION OF CHILDREN FROM COMBAT ZONES.

AND CNN CANNOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY ANY OF THESE ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU'VE JUST MADE.

DR. SIDHWA, LET ME ASK YOU JUST ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF CHILDREN BEING THE MAJORITY OF THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING HERE.

UNICEF CALLS GAZA THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS PLACE TO BE A CHILD.

THEY MAKE UP 90% OF THOSE SCENE IN THE E.R.

THERE.

TELL US SPECIFICALLY ABOUT 9 YURLD-YEAR-OLD JURY YOU TREATED.

>> A 9-YEAR-OLD GIRL.

SHE ALONG WITH HER FAMILY EVACUATED FROM KHAN YOUNIS TO RAFAH UNDER THREAT.

WHEN THEY GOT TO RAFAH, THEY WENT TO THEIR GRANDPARENTS HOUSE.

THAT HOME WAS BOMBED.

HER GRANDPARENTS WERE KILLED, SOME OF HER SIBLINGS WERE KILLED AND THE REST WERE PREVIOUSLY INJURED.

WELL FOUNDER IN THE PREOPERATIVE AREA AT THE EUROPEAN HOSPITAL PURELY BY ACCIDENT.

AND THE WOUNDS SHE HAD, I DON'T WANT TO GO INTO THE DETAILS ON THE AIR, MAYBE.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO SEE PICTURES AND READ THE DETAILS, THEY CAN READ THE POLITICO ARTICLE.

>> WE'RE SHOWING, DR. SIDHWA, SOME OF YOU PROVIDED.

>> THANK YOU.

THE WOUNDS WERE JUST HORRIFIC.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT ANYBODY CAN FULLY RECOVER FROM.

EVEN IF SHE DOES MANAGE TO SURVIVE, AND SHE IS THANKFULLY IN EGYPT NOW.

EVEN IF SHE DOES MANAGE TO SURVIVE, SHE IS GOING TO BE PERMANENTLY DISABLED FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.

AND SHE IS JUST ONE OF THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF KIDS WHO ARE HURT THIS WAY.

AND IT'S -- WITH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM UNDER ATTACK AND WITH THE HEALTH CARE NEEDS OF THE POPULATION SO DRAMATICALLY INCREASED FROM WHAT THE -- ANY SYSTEM REALLY COULD PROVIDE, THESE CHILDREN DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A CHANCE.

>> SO WE SHOULD NOTE THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM UNDER ATTACK.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE LACK OF RESOURCES THERE THAT YOU AND OTHER DOCTORS HAVE CLAIMED IS NONEXISTENT AT THIS POINT.

THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY THEY'VE ALLOWED THE DELIVERY OF MORE THAN 600,000 TONS OF FOOD AND SUPPLIES.

DR. PERLMUTTER, WHEN YOU HEAR THOSE NUMBERS AND COUNTER THEM WITH WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SEE ON THE GROUND, WHERE IS THE DISCONNECT?

ARE THESE SUPPLIES NOT GETTING TO WHERE THEY NEED TO GO?

>> WELL, I THINK THEY'RE BEING AS DISHONEST AS NETANYAHU WAS WHEN HE SPOKE TO OUR CONGRESS.

WHEN WE WERE THERE, WE RAN OUT OF THE SUPPLIES THAT WE HAD BROUGHT WITHIN OUR FIRST WEEK.

I PERSONALLY BROUGHT 700 POUNDS OF ORTHOPEDIC SPRYS AND DRESSING CHANGES AND DR. SIDHWA BROUGHT EVEN MORE.

AND THERE WERE NO SUPPLIES WHEN WE GOT THERE.

THE SUPPLIES THAT WE BROUGHT WERE EXHAUSTED BY THE END OF OUR FIRST WEEK.

AND IN FACT, MANY OF THE HOSPITALS WERE TRANSFERRING PATIENTS INTO THE EUROPEAN GAZA HOSPITAL WHERE WE WERE WORKING BECAUSE THEY RAN OUT OF SUPPLIES.

SO DRIVING IN, WE SAW HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS PILING UP AT THE BORDER, WAITING TO GET IN.

WHEN WE GOT OUT THROUGH THE RAFAH CROSSING, WE SAW THOUSANDS OF TRUCKS SIDE BY SIDE, END TO END, WAITING TO GET IN.

AND IS WHEN THE RAFAH BORDER WAS STILL OPEN.

THEY JUST WERE NOT ALLOWED IN.

THEY HAD OXFAM -- I'M SORRY -- UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED RELIEF GROUPS' NAMES ON THE SIDES OF THE TRUCKS THAT WERE NOT ALLOWED IN.

TANKERS OF WATER AND HEALTH CARE AIDS.

IT JUST WAS NOT DELIVERED.

THEY'RE BEING DISHONEST.

>> AND YOU WERE ALLOWED, THOUGH, TO BRING THE SUPPLIES YOU TRAVELED THERE WITHIN, CORRECT?

>> WE WERE AT THAT TIME.

CURRENTLY THE RULES ARE THAT YOU CANNOT BRING ANY MEDICAL SUPPLIES.

IN NOBODY IS ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY NOW TO VOLUNTEER IF YOU HAVE ANY PALESTINIAN HISTORY IN YOUR FAMILY, IF YOUR GRANDPARENTS OR YOUR PARENTS WERE PALESTINIAN AND YOU WERE BORN IN AMERICA, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN AS A VOLUNTEER.

YOU CANNOT BRING SUPPLIES IN THAT ARE MORE THAN YOUR PERSONAL SUPPLIES.

YOU CANNOT BRING ANY MEDICAL SUPPLIES IN.

SO IF WAS TO GO AGAIN NEXT WEEK, I'D HAVE TO BRING MY BACKPACK OF PERSONAL SUPPLIES, AND THAT'S IT.

NO MEDICAL SUPPLIES WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE TRANSPORTED BY MYSELF.

>> THE GAZA EUROPEAN HOSPITAL WAS ASKED BY THE IDF TO EVACUATE AT THE START OF JULY.

DR. SIDHWA, CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THE IMPLICATIONS OF A HOSPITAL EVACUATION.

THE IDF WILL SAY THAT'S WHERE HAMAS WAS HIDING AMONG CIVILIANS.

OBVIOUSLY YOU'VE GOT PATIENTS THERE THAT NEED TO BE RELOCATED IN THE MIDST OF WAR.

WHAT IS THAT PROCESS?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK THE WAY YOU SAID IT IS A BIT MISLEADING.

THE ISRAELIS DIDN'T ASK THE EUROPEAN HOSPITAL TO EVACUATE.

THEY FORCED THEM TO.

UNDER THREAT OF VIOLENCE.

AND WHEN THAT'S DONE, OBVIOUSLY NO HOSPITAL CAN WITHSTAND A DIRECT ATTACK FROM AN ARMED MILITARY.

WHILE MARK AND I WERE THERE, NOT ONLY DID WE NEVER SEE ANY TYPE OF COMBATANT WHATSOEVER, NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE, INJURED OR OTHERWISE.

THE CLAIM THAT HAMAS IS RUNNING ANY HOSPITAL IN GAZA, LET ALONE THE EUROPEAN HOSPITAL WHERE WE WERE IS TRANSPARENTLY RIDICULOUS.

THE IMPLICATIONS OF FORCIBLY EVACUATING A HOSPITAL UNDER THREAT OF GUN AND BOMBARDMENT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'D EXPECT.

THE SICKEST PEOPLE WILL DIE.

PEOPLE WHO CAN MAKE IT OUT WILL MAKE IT OUT.

SOME OF THE PHYSICIANS AND NURSES VERY BRAVELY STAYED, TRIED TO WAIT UNTIL THE LAST MOMENT, BUT EVENTUALLY THEY HAD TO LEAVE TOO.

YEAH.

IT'S A DISASTER.

>> DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW MANY PHYSICIANS AND NURSES REMAIN IN GAZA RIGHT NOW?

>> I DON'T.

THE MEDICAL AID FOR PALESTINIANS RELEASED AN UPDATE ON JUNE 26th SAYING THAT THE 500th HEALTH CARE WORKER, THE 500th PALESTINIAN HEALTH CARE WORKER IN GAZA HAD BEEN KILLED.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THEM ARE PALESTINIAN.

AND THAT REPRESENTS 2.5% OF GAZA'S HEALTH CARE FORCE.

IT'S ONE OUT OF EVERY 40 PEOPLE THAT WORKS IN HEALTH CARE IN GAZA.

SO IT'S A MASSIVE BLOW.

A LOT MORE HAVE FLED.

ACTUALLY, THE DIRECTOR OF THE HOSPITAL THAT WE WORKED AT HAD FLED JUST BEFORE WE GOT THERE BECAUSE HE WAS CONSTANTLY THREATENED BY THE ISRAELIS.

AND IN FACT, EVERY HOSPITAL, EVERY DEPARTMENTAL DIRECTOR IN THE EUROPEAN HOSPITAL SHOWED US TEXT MESSAGES THAT THEY HAD FROM THE ISRAELIS THREATENING THEM, TELLING THEM TO LEAVE, TELLING THEM THAT WE'RE GOING GET YOU, JUST LIKE WE GOT SHIFA, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> THAT WAS IN THE LANGUAGE ITSELF, WE'RE GOING GET YOU JUST LIKE WE GOT SHIFA?

>> YES.

>> YES.

>> DR. PERLMUTTER, I KNOW THAT YOU TREATED A LOCAL HEALTH CARE WORKER BY THE NAME OF TAMIR.

>> YES.

>> CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIM?

>> SURE.

AND THIS STORY WILL ARGUE AGAINST THE ACCUSATIONS OR THE CLAIMS THE IDF THAT NOBODY WAS TARGETED, NO INNOCENT PERSON WAS ARGUED THE.

TAMIR IS AN ORTHOPEDIC NURSE.

HE WAS IN THE OPERATING ROOM CLOSING A WOUND AFTER A SURGERY WHEN AN ISRAELI SOLDIER CAME IN TO ANOTHER HOSPITAL, NOT THE ONE WE WERE WORKING IN.

THIS IS A HOSPITAL THAT WAS ALREADY OCCUPIED BY THE IDF.

THEY ORDERED HIM TO ABANDON THE PATIENT, WHO HE WAS CLOSING THE WOUND ON.

HE REFUSED TO DO SO.

SO HE WAS SHOT IN THE KNEE.

HIS PAROXYSMAL TIBIA BONE OR HIS SHIN BONE WAS SENT ACROSS THE ROOM.

HE WAS OBVIOUSLY UNCONSCIOUS FROM THAT ASSAULT.

HE WAS THEN OPERATED ON.

HE RECOVERED THE NEXT DAY CONSCIOUSNESS.

THE NEXT DAY, HE WAS TAKEN PRISONER BY THE ISRAELIS AND TAKEN INTO ISRAEL TO AN ISRAELI PRISON.

HE WAS HANDCUFFED.

HE WAS BLINDFOLDED FOR 45 DAYS.

HE RECEIVED ABSOLUTELY NO WOUND CARE.

HE WAS FED A JUICE BOX BY HIS REPORT TO ME SOMETIMES EVERY DAY, MOSTLY EVERY OTHER DAY.

AND THEN ON THE 45th DAY, AFTER THEY DISCOVERED THAT HE WASN'T HAMAS, THEY LET HIM GO BY DUMPING HIM ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER.

HE CRAWLED FOR THREE KILOMETERS.

HIS WOUND IS NOW HORRIBLY INFECTED.

AS A GOODBYE PRESENT, THEY GAVE HIM A RIFLE BUTT IN HIS RIGHT EYE.

THEY BLEW OUT HIS GLOBE, MEANING THAT HE IS BLIND FOREVER.

AND HE CRAWLED AND WAS PICKED UP BY A PASSERBY AND WAS BROUGHT TO THE HOSPITAL WHERE WE TOOK CARE OF HIM.

SO HE WAS TORTURED.

HE WAS STARVED, TORTURED, TOTALLY ABUSED, RECEIVED NO MEDICAL CARE, AND INITIALLY SHOT WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE SHOT.

FOR DOING HIS JOB DELIVERING HEALTH CARE.

>> AND AGAIN, WE SHOULD NOTE THAT CNN HAS REACHED OUT TO THE IDF FOR COMMENT ON THIS.

OBVIOUSLY WE CAN'T INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THESE ALLEGATIONS AND THE DISTURBING DESCRIPTION THAT YOU JUST PROVIDED US.

AS WE CLOSE HERE, DR. SIDHWA, THERE IS CONCERN NOW ABOUT TRACES OF POLIO BEING FOUND IN THE SEWAGE IN GAZA.

THE W.H.O.

SAID THAT THEY WOULD SEND MORE THAN A MILLION POLIO VACCINES.

I GUESS THIS GOES TO MY EARLIER QUESTION IN TERMS OF MEDICAL CARE PROVIDERS THAT ARE CURRENTLY THERE.

SOMEBODY HAS TO ADMINISTER THESE VACCINES.

IS THAT FEASIBLE?

>> IT'S FEASIBLE.

ANYBODY CAN GIVE AN INJECTION.

BUT THE PROBLEM WITH VACCINATING A MALNOURISHED POPULATION IS IF YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK, THE VACCINE IS PRETTY MUCH USELESS.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION'S OWN REPORT SAY THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE ABSOLUTELY NO ACTION TO THWART THE EPIDEMICS THAT ARE GOING ON IN GAZA RIGHT NOW.

AND THEY SPECIFICALLY SAY BECAUSE OF ISRAELI RESTRICTIONS ON READMISSION OF BASIC SUPPLIES.

YOU KNOW WE HAD NO SOAP AT EUROPEAN HOSPITAL.

AND EUROPEAN HOSPITAL WHEN WE WERE THERE WAS THE BEST RESOURCED HOSPITAL IN THE ENTIRE GAZA STRIP.

NO SOAP.

NO MEANINGFUL SUPPLIES LIKE MARK MENTIONED.

OTHER HOSPITALS WERE FAR WORSE OFF.

SO, YEAH, A VACCINE CAMPAIGN WOULD BE GOOD.

AND IT CAN ONLY HELP.

BUT IT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM.

THE ANSWER TO THIS PROBLEM IS A CEASEFIRE AND TO STOP THE DESTRUCTION OF GAZA.

>> AND FOUND IN SOME OF THE TESTIMONY YOU'VE GIVEN TO CONGRESS IN WASHINGTON RECENTLY ALONG THESE LINES.

DOCTORS MARK PERLMUTTER AND FEROZ SIDHWA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO A LOAD EXPLOSION HEARD IN THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS OF BEIRUT.

ACCORDING TO A HEZBOLLAH-RUN TV AGENCY.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY TOOK RESPONSIBILITY, SAYING IT CARRIED OUT A TARGETED STRIKE ON THE HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER THEY SAY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR LAST SATURDAY'S MAJDAL SHAMS ATTACK.

THE AREA IS POPULOUS PART OF BEIRUT AND A STRONGHOLD OF THE IRAN-BACKED GROUP.

CORRESPONDENT BEN WEDEMAN IS IN BEIRUT AND JOINS US NOW.

BEN, WE'RE JUST GETTING NEWS OF THIS STRIKE ACROSS OUR WIRES TOO.

IT APPEARS THE FATE OF THIS TARGET IS YET UNKNOWN.

WHAT MORE DO WE KNOW AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, BASICALLY, WHAT WE KNOW IS WITHIN THE LAST HALF HOUR, THERE WERE THESE LARGE EXPLOSIONS IN WHAT WE CALL THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS OF BEIRUT, BUT THAT IS REALLY BEIRUT PROPER WHERE, OF COURSE, AMONG HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS THERE ARE SOME OF THE LEADERS OF HEZBOLLAH OPERATING FROM THERE.

NOW ACCORDING TO THE STATE-RUN NATIONAL NEWS AGENCY, THIS WAS A DRONE STRIKE INVOLVING THREE MISSILES.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT IT HIT A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING, AND THERE ARE REPORTS OF CASUALTIES.

NOW THIS IS DEFINITELY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ESCALATION SINCE THE OUTBREAK OF HOSTILITIES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH AND OTHER MILITIAS HERE IN LEBANON SINCE THE 8th OF OCTOBER.

AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT HEZBOLLAH HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY WILL MEET ESCALATION WITH ESCALATION, WHICH IS THE TERMS THEY USE.

ESSENTIALLY, THEY'VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED THAT A STRIKE ON THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS OF BEIRUT FOR THEM IS A RED LINE, AND THEY WILL RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.

NOW WE DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY.

WE'VE SEEN THE STATEMENTS FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE TALKING ABOUT IT'S A MAJOR LEADER WITHIN HEZBOLLAH, BUT WE HAVE YET TO SEE ANY DETAILS ABOUT WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ACTUAL TARGET.

I'VE TRIED TO CONTACT SOURCES IN HEZBOLLAH AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE NOT ANSWERING.

BUT CERTAINLY, THIS RAISES TENSIONS REALLY SKYROCKETS THE TENSES AT THE MOMENT.

AND THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT AT SOME POINT, THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME SORT OF RESPONSE FROM HEZBOLLAH FOR THIS STRIKE ON BEIRUT.

>> NO DOUBT HEZBOLLAH WAS ANTICIPATING SOME SORT OF RESPONSE FROM ISRAEL FOLLOWING THAT ATTACK THAT KILLED 12 CHILDREN ON SATURDAY.

IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHAT THAT RESPONSE WOULD BE, WOULD IT BE MEASURED ENOUGH TO AVOID AN ALL-OUT WAR AND OPENING OF A NEW FRONT THAT IS YET TO BE DETERMINED.

CORRESPONDENT BEN WEDEMAN IS IN BEIRUT.

BEN, COME BACK TO US IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE NEWS THAT YOU CAN DELIVER IN TERMS OF WHO THIS TARGET WAS.

IN THE MEANTIME, LET'S BRING IN LEBANESE JOURNALIST KIM GHATTAS.

SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM BEIRUT.

FIRST OF ALL, KIM, I'M JUST WONDERING.

TELL US MORE ABOUT THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.

IT APPEARS TO BE A SOUTHERN SUBURB OF BEIRUT.

DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING YOURSELF?

>> I DID, ACTUALLY, YES.

I LIVE NOT TOO FAR FROM THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS OF BEIRUT.

I LIVE LET'S SAY ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE CENTER OF THE CITY.

AND THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS ARE TO MY SOUTH -- SORRY, AND VERY CLOSE TO THE AIRPORT.

THIS WAS A STRIKE, AS BEN WAS SAYING, CONDUCTED WITH A DRONE, AND QUITE TARGETED.

I DO WANT TO REMIND YOUR VIEWERS THAT WE'VE SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS BEFORE IN JANUARY OF THIS YEAR WHEN ISRAEL ALSO CONDUCTED A TARGETED ASSASSINATION OF A SENIOR HAMAS LEADER IN JANUARY ON THE 2nd OF JANUARY.

AND AT THE TIME AS WELL, WE THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS PERHAPS THE BEGINNING OF A MASSIVE ESCALATION.

EVERYBODY THEN STEPPED BACK FROM THE BRINK, AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE HOW HEZBOLLAH REACTS TO THIS ASSASSINATION, WHICH IS NOW MOST PROBABLY -- DETAILS ARE STILL EMERGING, MOST PROBABLY TARGETED ONE OF THEIR OWN AND LIKELY A SENIOR MEMBER OF THE GROUP AS WELL.

WE HAVE BEEN EXPECTING THIS TO BEGIN SINCE THE ROCKET ATTACK THAT KILLED CHILDREN ON THE ISRAELI OCCUPIED SYRIA AND GOLAN HEIGHTS ON SATURDAY.

AND IT HAS BEEN A NERVE-RACKING WAR OF NERVES SINCE THEN.

THE LEBANESE HAVE BEEN SITTING ON TENTERHOOKS WONDERING WHAT THIS ESCALATION MIGHT LOOK LIKE AND TRYING TO TAKE SOME COMFORT FROM THE STATEMENTS COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL LEAD TO AN ALL-OUT WAR AND AN ALL-OUT ESCALATION, AND THAT DIPLOMACY CAN STILL MAKE HEADWAY.

BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT ISRAEL WAS GOING TO RETALIATE, AND IT'S ALSO CLEAR THAT HEZBOLLAH WILL THEN AS WELL RETALIATE AGAIN.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER ALL OF THIS CAN BE CHOREOGRAPHED IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT REMAINS CONTAINED.

>> AND I'M JUST SEEING THAT AMOS HAREL, WHO WE HAD ON THIS PROGRAM MOST FREQUENTLY FOR A REPORTER AND INTELLIGENCE, A MILITARY REPORTER FOR HAARETZ IS REPORTING TARGETED FUAD SHUKR IN THIS STRIKE.

HE IS CONSIDERED THE HEZBOLLAH NUMBER TWO MAN IN CHARGE AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TERROR ORGANIZATION'S MILITARY ACTIVITIES.

OF COURSE, CNN CANNOT CONFIRM THIS.

THIS IS JUST REPORTING FROM AMOS HAREL OF HAARETZ WE HAVE ON FOR THIS VERY SUBJECT MATTER.

I AM WONDERING, KIM, THERE, AS WE NOTED, HAD BEEN AN ANTICIPATORY RESPONSE.

THE UNITED STATES HAD GIVEN THAT WARNING.

OBVIOUSLY THE LEBANESE TO THEIR CITIZENS AS WELL.

JUST A MATTER OF WHAT THAT RESPONSE WOULD LOOK LIKE.

IF THIS IS IT, AND AGAIN, THIS IS JUST WITHIN THE LAST FEW MINUTES SO, WE HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER THERE WILL BE MORE.

I KNOW THERE WAS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT A MASSIVE STRIKE TO BEIRUT ITSELF, IS THERE COMFORT AT ALL IN THIS BEING AN APPARENT TARGETED STRIKE AT THIS POINT?

>> AS YOU SAID, BIANNA, IT'S ONLY THE BEGINNING.

THERE IS A LOT OF SPECULATION, A LOT OF RUMORS WHAT THIS IS GOING TO BE LIKE.

IS IT A MULTI-DAY TARGETED OPERATION?

IS IT GOING TO BE ONE LONG NIGHT OF AIR STRIKES?

WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT ALL SIDES EXPECTED THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

THE ISRAELIS MADE CLEAR THEY WERE GOING TO RETALIATE.

I THINK MESSAGES HAVE BEEN PASSED ON TO HEZBOLLAH MOST LIKELY THROUGH THE U.S. SAYING THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND MESSAGES TO THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT TO PASS ON TO HEZBOLLAH TO THEIR RESPONSE TO THEN BE RESTRAINED AS WELL.

SO THAT AS I SAID, IT REMAINS SOMEWHAT CONTAINED.

BUT THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS MOMENT BECAUSE YOU CAN CHOREOGRAPH THESE THINGS OR TRY TO CHOREOGRAPH.

YOU CAN TELEGRAPH INTENTIONS, BUT THESE ARE NOT WAR GAMES.

THIS IS REAL LIFE.

>> YES.

>> I THINK THAT WHAT ALL SIDES ARE TRYING TO PULL OFF IS SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT WE SAW IN APRIL WHEN IRAN AND ISRAEL EXCHANGED DRONES AND MISSILES, AND THAT WAS A SCARY MOMENT.

IT WAS TELEGRAPHED IN ADVANCE AND MANAGED AND CONTAINED.

AND THEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TOLD ISRAEL TO BASICALLY TAKE THE WIN.

AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER EVERYBODY CAN PULL THIS OFF AGAIN NOW.

BUT THE DANGERS ARE HUMONGOUS.

AND THE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS EVERYWHERE REMAINS, YOU KNOW, TERRIFYING.

EVERY TIME WE HAVE THESE MOMENTS WHERE WE STEP CLOSER TO THE BRINK, IT'S GOING TO BECOME HARDER TO STEP BACK AND CONTAIN IT.

AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED A CEASEFIRE IN GAZA, A HOSTAGE DEAL, AND THAT CAN HAVE ALSO A POSITIVE IMPACT ON THE BORDER CLASHES BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL.

>> RIGHT.

BECAUSE TO REMIND OUR VIEWERS, THE REASON THESE TWO ARE CONNECTED, THE WAR IN GAZA NOW AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN NOW IN THE NORTH SINCE OCTOBER 8th AND THE MISSILES AND THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IS THAT HAMAS SAYS THAT THEY WON'T STOP UNTIL THE WAR IN GAZA STOPS.

AND HERE WE ARE ON THE PRECIPICE PERHAPS OF A DEAL.

AND THEN HERE COMES THIS STRIKE, KILLING 12 CHILDREN ON SATURDAY.

AND IT IS NOTABLE THAT YOU REFERENCE THAT DRONE STRIKE BY IRAN AGAINST ISRAEL, 300 PROJECTILES, THE FIRST TIME THERE HAD BEEN A DIRECT STRIKE FROM IRAN TARGETING ISRAEL.

NOW, AS YOU SAY, THINGS, MOST OF THOSE DRONES, IF NOT ALL OF THEM WERE SHOT DOWN.

BUT THAT IN AND OF ITSELF WAS AN ESCALATORY STEP THAT HASN'T BEEN SEEN BEFORE.

IN TERMS OF CROSSING RED LINES, THAT WAS IN RESPONSE TO ISRAEL TARGETING SENIOR IRGC IRANIAN OFFICIALS IN SYRIA A FEW WEEKS PRIOR TO THAT.

SO TO YOUR POINT, EVERYTHING MAY APPEAR TO BE MEASURED.

YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE ONE MISCALCULATION MAY LEAD TO A WIDER REGIONAL CONFLICT.

YOAV GALLANT JUST TWEETED "HEZBOLLAH CROSSED THE RED LINE."

HIS PUBLIC MESSAGING HAS BEEN A BIT MORE TEMPERED THAN SOME ON THE FAR RIGHT EXTREME OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FOLLOWING THAT ATTACK ON SATURDAY.

WHAT DO YOU READ INTO THIS STATEMENT, "HEZBOLLAH CROSSED THE RED LINE"?

>> THE TRAGIC KILLING OF CHILDREN ON THE GOLAN HEIGHTS WAS THE LARGEST LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIFE OVER THE LAST NINE MONTHS SINCE OCTOBER 7th ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, OR I SHOULD SAY ON IN THIS CASE, THE GOLAN HEIGHTS, ISRAELI OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED THAT DAY WERE NOT ACTUALLY ISRAELI CITIZENS, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS, OF COURSE, FROM WITHIN ISRAEL TO USE THAT MOMENT TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM OF HEZBOLLAH.

THIS IS ALL IN THE CONTEXT OF A DEVASTATING WAR IN GAZA, OF COURSE, WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR TEN MONTHS, AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED.

YOU KNOW, GAZA LAYS IN RUINS.

NOW THERE HAS BEEN -- THERE HAVE BEEN THESE BORDER CLASHES BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL SINCE OCTOBER 8th.

HEZBOLLAH SAID THEY WERE DOING THIS IN SUPPORT OF HAMAS.

AND AS YOU POINTED OUT, THEY'VE INSISTED THAT THEY WILL NOT STOP UNTIL THE WAR IN GAZA COMES TO AN END.

THE CONTOURS OF A DEAL BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL AND BY EXTENSION HEZBOLLAH TO BRING THIS TO AN END ON THE BORDER ARE KNOWN.

BUT THEY REMAINED CONDITIONAL ON AN END OF HOSTILITIES, A CESSATION OF FIRING, A CEASEFIRE, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT IN GAZA.

AND HEZBOLLAH HAS NOT BACKED DOWN FROM THAT.

WHAT HAPPENED ON SATURDAY I THINK WAS A TRAGIC ACCIDENT.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED.

WE HEARD EVEN FROM ISRAELI MILITARY SOURCES THAT THEY THINK IT WAS AN ERRANT HEZBOLLAH ROCKET.

BECAUSE HEZBOLLAH HAD NO REAL REASON TO WANT TO KILL ARABS ON SYRIAN TERRITORY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SUIT THEIR INTERESTS IN LEBANON WHERE THEY'RE TRYING TO REPAIR FRAYED TIES WITH THE DRUCE COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IN SYRIA ITSELF.

THAT GOES TO IF POINT OF WHAT I'M SAYING.

YOU CAN MANAGE AND TRY TO CONTAIN AND PLAY BY RULES OF ENGAGEMENT,ED A AT SOME POINT SOMETHING IS GOING TO GO WRONG.

AND INEVITABLY, CIVILIANS DIE.

AND THAT'S THE TRAGIC THING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

IT'S FINE TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS AS GEOPOLITICS AND DIPLOMACY, BUT THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND IN GAZA, IN ISRAEL, IN SYRIA, IN LEBANON ARE TREMENDOUS.

I WANT TO REMIND YOUR VIEWERS THAT LEBANON HAS BEEN THROUGH A LOT OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE'RE COMING UP ON THE FOURTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE BEIRUT PORT EXPLOSION OF 2020 ON THE 4th OF AUGUST, THE LARGEST -- ONE OF THE LARGEST NONNUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS IN MODERN HISTORY.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF LAYERS OF TRAUMA IN LEBANON THAT PEOPLE ARE TELLING WITH.

AND NERVES ARE FRAYING.

AND NOBODY WANTS TO SEE MORE OF THIS.

SO IT'S REALLY TIME FOR DIPLOMACY, FOR FOCUSED DIPLOMACY, AND PRESSURE ON LEADERS IN POWER ON BOTH SIDES TO TRY TO GET TO THIS DEAL.

SO THIS REGION CAN GET ON A SLIGHTLY MORE POSITIVE TRAJECTORY.

>> AND AGAIN, I GO BACK TO THIS REPORTING FROM AMOS HAREL, IF THIS TARGET WAS A SENIOR HEZBOLLAH OFFICIAL, THEIR NUMBER TWO CONSIDERED FUAD SHUKR, HOW SIGNIFICANT OF A BLOW IS THAT TO THE ORGANIZATION?

>> HEZBOLLAH LIKES TO SAY THAT NO ONE IS IRREPLACEABLE, AND THEY HAVE MANY MORE COMMANDERS WHO CAN RISE.

WE HAVE SEEN AT LEAST 400 MEDIUM RANKING TO SENIOR HEZBOLLAH COMMANDERS BE KILLED BY ISRAELI STRIKES OVER THE LAST NINE MONTHS.

IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW HEZBOLLAH WANTS TO PLAY THE NEXT MOVE.

I SUSPECT THEY'RE KEEN TO MAKE SURE AS WELL THAT THIS DOESN'T ESCALATE INTO AN ALL-OUT WAR, BUT THEY WILL HAVE THEIR RED LINES AS WELL.

AND IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY MISREADS THE INTENTIONS OF THE OTHER PARTY.

HEZBOLLAH, OF COURSE, IS A PROXY, AN ALLY, A PARTNER OF IRAN, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IRAN'S INTENTIONS AND NEEDS AT THE MOMENT.

THEY ALSO DON'T WANT A REGIONAL WAR.

THEY'RE VERY BUSY WITH DOMESTIC POLITICS.

THEY JUST HAVE A NEW PRESIDENT-ELECTED AFTER THE KILLING OF, THE DEATH OF PRESIDENT RAISI IN A HELICOPTER CRASH.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH A SUCCESSION TO THE SUPREME LEADER.

THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED WITH INTERNAL DOMESTIC STABILITY.

THEY DON'T WANT TO BE IN A REGIONAL WAR.

AND THEY DON'T WANT TO USE OR WASTE THEIR MOST PRECIOUS ASSET IN THE REGION, WHICH IS HEZBOLLAH.

THEY DON'T WANT TO USE IT AT THIS POINT FOR JUST AN ESCALATION.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO SAVE THIS KEY PARTNER OF THEIRS IN THE EVENT THAT IRAN ITSELF BECOMES A TARGET IN A FUTURE ESCALATION.

SO THESE ARE ALL THE CONCERNS AND CALCULATIONS THAT THE DIFFERENT PARTIES ARE MAKING IN THE REGION.

AND IF I MAY, BIANNA, ADD ONE MORE POINT.

ISRAEL HAS OFTEN SAID THEY WANT TO ELIMINATE HEZBOLLAH OR HAMAS IN THIS CASE AS THEY'VE BEEN TRYING OVER THE LAST NINE MONTHS.

BUT HISTORY SHOWS IN LEBANON AND MANY ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS HAVE WARNED ABOUT THIS, HISTORY SHOWS THAT THERE IS NO MILITARY VICTORY FOR ISRAEL IN A WAR AGAINST HEZBOLLAH.

THERE IS ONLY DEVASTATION FOR BOTH SIDES.

IN 2006, HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL WENT TO WAR.

THE INTENTION AS WELL IN ISRAEL WAS TO ELIMINATE HEZBOLLAH.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

AND 18 YEARS LATER, HEZBOLLAH IS MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER AND HAS 150,000 MISSILES THAT IT CAN LAUNCH AT ISRAEL, WHICH IS WHAT IS KEEPING ISRAEL AS WELL SOMEWHAT GUARDED IN HOW FAR IT GOES IN THIS ESCALATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, TO REPEAT MYSELF, WE NEED DIPLOMACY.

WE NEED A CEASEFIRE.

>> THE CEASEFIRE IN GAZA IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE AS WE NOTED EARLIER, THE TWO ARE RELATED AT THIS POINT.

THE U.S. CONTINUES TO PUSH TO AVOID ESCALATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH.

I DO WANT THE THANK YOU, KIM GHATTAS, FOR JOINING US.

STAY SAFE.

I APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>>> NOW TO THE U.S. WHERE THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS OF DONALD TRUMP AND THE PRESUMPTIVE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE KAMALA HARRIS ARE HEATING UP, AND SO TOO ARE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS AND ONLINE ABUSE.

IT'S NOTHING NEW FOR HARRIS.

IN 2020, A REPORT OF PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOUND WOMEN SUFFERED THE VAST MAJORITY OF ATTACKS.

FORMER HEAD OF THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD NINA JANKOWICZ TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN THAT FOUR YEARS LATER, WOMEN AND IN PARTICULAR KAMALA HARRIS ARE STILL BEARING THE BRUNT OF ONLINE ABUSE.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE WNET STREAMING SERIES "TAKE ON FAKE" WHICH ANALYZES FAKE OR ALTERED VIDEO IMAGES AND AUDIO TO DEBUNK THE VIRAL SPREAD OF MISINFORMATION AND GET TO THE TRUTH.

.

>> BIANNA, THANKS.

NINA JANKOWICZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AS A RESEARCHER ON DISINFORMATION, YOU HAVE STUDIED HOW FEMALE POLITICIANS ARE TARGETED ONLINE.

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE LEARNED IS THAT KAMALA HARRIS GETS A LOT OF THE ABUSE.

IN A 2020 STUDY WE CONDUCTED AT THE WILSON CENTER, WE LOOKED AT 13 FEMALE CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE THAT WERE RUNNING THAT YEAR, AND OF THE ABUSE THAT WE TRACKED OVER A TWO-MONTH PERIOD, 78% OF OVER 336,000 PIECES OF ABUSE AND DISINFORMATION WAS TARGETED TO THEN SENATOR HARRIS.

IN THE DAYS SINCE THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF HER CANDIDACY FOR PRESIDENT, WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF THOSE SAME NARRATIVES THAT WE WERE TRACKING IN 2020 RESURGE IN 2024.

AND I THINK THERE IS A COUPLE OF INTERESTING THINGS HERE.

ONE, FRANKLY, THESE NARRATIVES ARE BEING RECYCLED.

AND TWO, THERE IS A LOT MORE INTEREST IN DEBUNKING THEM AND PUSHING BACK AGAINST THEM THAN THERE WAS IN 2020.

AND THAT GIVES ME HOPE.

>> EXPLAIN THE RECYCLING.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE TROPES AGAINST FEMALE POLITICIANS, MAYBE AGAINST THE VICE PRESIDENT IN PARTICULAR THAT KIND OF OLD HAT WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICAL MUDSLINGING OR SMEARING?

HOW DO WE SEE IT ANY DIFFERENT TODAY?

>> YEAH, SO WE SAW THREE MAIN NARRATIVES IN OUR DATA THAT WE COLLECTED IN 2020.

THE FIRST WAS THAT WOMEN WERE BEING SEXUALIZED.

AND IN VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS' CASE, THAT WAS THE NARRATIVE THAT SHE ALLEGEDLY SLEPT HER WAY TO THE TOP.

NOW THIS HAS BEEN TURNED OVER AND OVER OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, THREE, REALLY SINCE HER RELATIONSHIP WITH WILLIE BROWN, THE FORMER MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO.

BUT IT JUST DOESN'T HOLD WATER.

AND OF COURSE THE IDEA THERE IS TO DEMEAN HER, TO HUMILIATE HER, TO MAKE HER SEEM UNFIT FOR OFFICE.

THERE ARE TWO OTHER NARRATIVES THAT WE SAW IN 2020 THAT ARE REARING THEIR HEAD AGAIN THIS TIME AROUND.

ONE IS THAT KAMALA HARRIS IS SECRETLY A MAN, THAT SHE UNDERWENT A GENDER TRANSITION SECRETLY, AND THAT SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE HER WAY TO SUCH A POSITION OF POWER IF SHE WEREN'T A MAN.

WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF POORLY DONE PHOTO SHOPS THAT ATTEMPT TO MAKE HER SEEM MORE MASCULINE.

THAT WAS TRUE IN 2020 AS WELL.

AND THEN THERE IS A CATEGORY OF NARRATIVES THAT I WOULD DESCRIBE AS RACIST OR RACIALIZED.

ONE SAYING THAT SHE IS NOT BLACK OR SOUTHEAST ASIAN ENOUGH TO CLAIM THOSE HERITAGES, AND THAT'S JUST FOR HER TO GET AHEAD THAT SHE IS DOING THAT.

AND THEN THE OTHER SET OF TROPICS IS THE DEI, DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION NARRATIVE THAT WE'VE SEEN MORE STRONGLY THIS TIME AROUND THAN IN 2020 AS THAT'S BECOME KIND OF A LR IN POLITICS OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS.

AND THIS CLAIMS THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT ONLY GOT WHERE SHE IS BECAUSE OF HER MINORITY STATUS.

COMPLETELY IGNORING HER ENTIRE RECORD AS A PROSECUTOR, AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CALIFORNIA, AS SENATOR, AND NOW AS VICE PRESIDENT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FIND INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THIS STUDY IN 2020.

AND I WONDER, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO DO THAT STUDY TODAY?

HOW HAVE THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS CHANGED?

>> THAT'S A REALLY GREAT QUESTION.

IN 2020, THINGS WERE MORE OR LESS OPEN.

THERE ARE THINGS CALLED APPLICATION PROGRAMING INTERFACES THAT ALLOW RESEARCHERS TO ESSENTIALLY HOOK INTO THE SYSTEMS OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND COLLECT DATA FOR ANALYSIS AND COMPARISON.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO WITH SIX SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS BADGE IN 2020.

TIMES HAVE REALLY CHANGED NOW IN 2024.

AND THAT'S NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US.

TWITTER, NOW X HAS VERY FAMOUSLY MONETIZED ACCESS TO ITS API, WHICH MEANS RESEARCHERS NOW NEED THE PAY ABOUT $40,000 A MONTH TO GET THE SAME DATA THAT WAS TOTALLY OPEN TO US BEFORE.

AND FOR MANY RESEARCH ORGANIZATIONS, THAT IS JUST COMPLETELY OUT OF THE QUESTION.

FACEBOOK USED TO HAVE A SOCIAL LISTENING TOOL CALLED CROWD TANGLE THAT ALLOWED YOU TO DO SOME SIMILAR ANALYSIS ON BOTH FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM WHICH IS OWNED BY META.

THEY SHUT THAT DOWN JUST AHEAD OF THE ELECTION.

AND EVEN REDDIT, WHICH USED TO HAVE AN OPEN API HAS NOW SHUT ACCESS.

SO WE'RE REALLY -- I WOULDN'T SAY WE'RE TOTALLY IN THE DARK, BECAUSE WE CAN SEE THE TRENDS OF WHAT ARE GOING ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND THEY ARE PLAYING FOR USE, SOCIAL LISTENING TOOLS AVAILABLE.

BUT FOR MANY NONPROFITS AND ACADEMIC RESEARCHERS, THEY ARE JUST TOO EXPENSIVE.

AND THAT MEANS WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME SORT OF GRANULARITY THAT WE HAD IN 2020.

AND I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REPLICATE THE 2020 STUDY THAT I DID TODAY.

>> AND I ALSO WONDER HOW THE TECHNOLOGICAL LANDSCAPE HAS CHANGED.

>> WELL, IT HAS REALLY COMPLICATED IT.

AND WE'VE SEEN THAT IN MANY WAYS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF MONTHS SINCE THE PRIMARIES AGAIN.

BUT ALSO, THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND IN PARTICULAR, WITH WHAT IS COLLOQUIALLY CALLED DEEPFAKE PORNOGRAPHY, WOMEN CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE ARE BEING TARGETED IN DROVES BY THIS TECHNOLOGY, WHICH ALLOWS ANY PERSON USING BASICALLY A SINGLE IMAGE TO SWAP IN A FAMOUS WOMAN'S FACE OR EVEN KIND OF PRIVATE CITIZEN'S FACE INTO PORNOGRAPHIC IMAGES OR VIDEOS.

AND I DID A QUICK SEARCH ON SOME OF THE KEY DEEPFAKE FORUMS OVER THE WEEKEND TO SEE IF VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WAS BEING DEPICTED IN MANY OF THEM.

AND INDEED, THERE ARE PAGES AND PAGES OF PORNOGRAPHIC VIDEOS TARGETING THE VICE PRESIDENT, AS WELL AS MANY OTHER FEMALE POLITICIANS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF BILLS PENDING IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE CIVIL LITIGATION AGAINST DEEPFAKE PORNOGRAPHY AND THOSE WHO CREATE AND AMPLIFY IT.

THERE IS ALSO ONE THAT SUGGESTED A CRIMINAL PENALTY.

BUT RIGHT NOW THERE IS ACTUALLY NO FEDERAL LEVEL STATUTE THAT PROHIBITS THIS BEHAVIOR.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY DAMAGING NOT ONLY FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, BUT FOR KIND OF WOMEN'S EQUALITY WRIT LARGE.

AND BEYOND THAT, HHARI, WE'VE ALSO SEEN OVER THE WEEKEND ELON MUSK, THE CEO OF TWITTER SHARING A AI GENERATED VIDEO OF VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS THAT WAS A RIFF ON HER CAMPAIGN VIDEO, MAKING IT SEEM LIKE SHE SAID THINGS THAT SHE DIDN'T SAY AND AGAIN, DEMEANING HER INTELLIGENCE, HER FITNESS FOR OFFICE, ET CETERA.

THAT, AGAIN, DOES NOT GO AGAINST ANY SORT OF STATUTE THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE, NO RULE-MAKING BY THE S.E.C.

OR FEC.

AND IT'S QUITE SHOCKING TO ME THAT WE GOT TO THIS, WHAT WAS LONG HERALDED AS THE AI ELECTION, AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY RULES TO GOVERN SOMETHING THAT COULD BE SO DAMAGING AND CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT CANDIDATES SAID THINGS OR DID THINGS THEY DIDN'T DO OR SAY.

>> IF ELON MUSK SHARES SOMETHING THAT WAS MANIPULATED BY AI AND IT WANT LABELED THAT, WOULDN'T THAT BE A VIOLATION OF X'S OWN TERMS OF SERVICE?

I GUESS WOULD HE HAVE TO CENSOR HIMSELF?

>> WELL, I WOULDN'T ARGUE THAT DOING CONTENT MODERATION RELATED TO TERMS OF SERVICES CENSORSHIP.

WE ALL SIGN UP FOR THOSE RULES WHEN WE USE THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY APPLY TO ELON MUSK IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STANDARD.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

NOT ONLY DID IT VIOLATE THE AI RULES ABOUT MANIPULATED MEDIA ON THE PLATFORM, IT ALSO VIOLATED RULES ABOUT IMPERSONATION.

BECAUSE THIS AD LOOKS LIKE A CAMPAIGN AD.

AND ON THE ORIGINAL POST IT DOES SAY THAT IT'S A PARODY.

BUT WHEN ELON MUSK SHARED IT, HE SHARED IT WITHOUT THAT LABEL.

AND I THINK THAT LABEL SHOULD BE RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN THE ENTIRE TIME YOU'RE WATCHING SOMETHING THAT IS A PARODY THAT IS AI-GENERATED.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING DONE IN TERMS OF ENFORCEMENT SO FAR.

X ALSO HAS THE COMMUNITY NOTES WHICH ALLOWS INDIVIDUAL USERS TO ADD LABELS TO CONTENT THAT MIGHT BE MISLEADING ON THE PLATFORM.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL NOTES THAT HAVE BEEN SUGGESTED FOR THAT PARTICULAR VIDEO.

AND USERS WHO ARE AGAINST HARRIS HAVE ACTUALLY DEPRESSED THOSE NOTES.

THEY VOTED THEM DOWN.

SO THEY HAVEN'T BEEN APPLIED YET TO THAT VIDEO.

>> WHY WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM WATCHING THE AFTERMATH OF THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP?

I MEAN, THE INFORMATION ECOSYSTEM IMMEDIATE HOURS, A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER, I HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.

>> IT WAS REALLY TROUBLING TO SEE HOW QUICKLY CONSPIRACY THEORIES FILLED THE VACUUM OF INFORMATION THAT WE SAW, ESPECIALLY IN THE HOURS AFTER THE ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION.

AND I THINK THAT JUST SHOWS HOW POLARIZED WE'VE BECOME AND HOW MUCH PEOPLE RELY ON A CONSTANT FLOW OF INFORMATION TO KEEP THEMSELVES STEADY IN THIS ENVIRONMENT.

I THINK AS WELL, I THOUGHT ABOUT POLAND, WHICH WENT THROUGH A SIMILARLY TRAGIC PERIOD UNFORTUNATELY IN 2010.

THE PRESIDENT AND MEMBERS OF HIS POLITICAL ELITE IN POLAND WERE ON A PLANE ON THEIR WAY TO RUSSIA THAT CRASHED.

AND FOR A BRIEF MOMENT, A COUPLE OF DAYS, REALLY, THE POLISH ELECTORATE WAS UNITED AND KIND OF SOLIDARITY AND SUPPORTING AND MOURNING.

AND THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN HOARE IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT'S REALLY WORRISOME TO ME.

WE SHOULD ALL BE EXTREMELY CIRCUMSPECT AND SAD ABOUT THE FACT THAT OUR POLITICAL RHETORIC, THAT IT HAS BECOME SO NORMALIZED TO BE VIOLENT.

AND I THINK THAT WE CAN KIND OF TRACE THAT BACK TO THE CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN HAPPENING OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN KEEP THAT UNITY MOVING FORWARD TOWARD NOVEMBER.

BUT IF THE LAST FEW DAYS ARE ANY INDICATION, I DON'T THINK THAT'S HAPPENING.

I THINK WE'VE ALREADY ABANDONED THAT.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IS YOU ARE UNIQUELY QUALIFIED IN THE STUDY OF THIS THING FROM A NUMBER OF PERSPECTIVES.

YOU WERE THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY BACK IN 2022.

AND FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE FAMILIAR IN OUR CONVERSATION, WHAT WAS THE MISSION OF THAT GROUP?

>> YEAH, THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD WAS A BODY WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY THAT WAS COORDINATING POLICY RESPONSES TO DISINFORMATION THAT AFFECTED THE HOMELAND.

SO THINGS LIKE NATURAL DISASTERS, CYBER SECURITY.

INCIDENTS AND CYBER ATTACKS, VOTING INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS UNDER DHS' AUSPICES.

IT WAS AS I LIKE TO LOVINGLY CALL IT, MY JOB WAS TO HERD CATS, RIGHT.

MAKE SURE PEOPLE WERE TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER IN THIS VERY BIG SPRAWLING DEPARTMENT THAT OFTEN PEOPLE WEREN'T AWARE OF WHAT EACH OTHER WERE DOING.

WE WERE TRYING TO COORDINATE ALL THAT AND MAKE SURE WE WERE MARCHING TO THE BET OF THE SAME DRUMMER.

>> BIG SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS AND MAINSTREAM RIGHT WING MEMBERS, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS CALLED THIS THE QUOTE, MINISTRY OF TRUTH.

AND THE GROUP WAS OFFICIALLY PAUSED JUST THREE WEEKS AFTER YOU RESIGNED.

I WONDER, WHAT WAS THAT PERIOD LIKE FOR YOU?

>> IT WAS A REALLY DIFFICULT PERIOD OF MY LIFE.

AND FRANKLY, HARE, THE LAST TWO YEARS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

I'VE HAD TO GET A PROTECTIVE ORDER AGAINST A CYBER STALKER.

I WAS HAULED INTO CONGRESS UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE WEAPONIZATION OF GOVERNMENT HEADED UP BY JIM JORDAN TO GIVE A TESTIMONY ABOUT MY THREE MONTHS IN GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT COST ME TIME.

IT WAS QUITE STRESSFUL.

AND I ALSO HAD A FRIVOLOUS CIVIL SUIT DIRECTED AT ME FROM SOMEONE WHO CLAIMED I WAS CENSORING THEM.

I DEALT WITH A LOT OF THREATS AND STILL DO TO THIS DAY AGAINST BOTH MY FAMILY, MYSELF, MY COLLEAGUES, MY SON EVEN.

I WAS 36 WEEKS' PREGNANT AT THE TIME THAT THE THREATS AGAINST ME STARTED AND THE LIES ABOUT ME WERE SPREAD.

AND I LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THIS NOW BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO TO PLAY THE VICTIM CARD, BUT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WE PUT THE BRAKES ON THIS KIND OF RHETORIC.

IT IS NOT NORMAL, IT IS NOT AMERICAN, IT IS NOT MORAL FOR SOMEONE TO RECEIVE THREATS LIKE THIS JUST FOR DOING THEIR JOB.

EVEN IF PEOPLE VEHEMENTLY DISAGREED WITH ME, DISAGREE ON THE SUBSTANCE.

AND FRANKLY, I'M ALSO WORRIED BECAUSE WHEN THE BOARD WAS DISBANDED, MANY OF THE EFFORTS WITHIN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO COUNTER DISINFORMATION ALSO HAD THE BRAKES PUT ON.

AND I BELIEVE THAT WE'RE WALKING BLIND INTO THIS ELECTION GIVEN THE FACT THAT SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ARE DOING LESS.

WE CANNOT LOOK INTO WHAT THEY'RE DOING BECAUSE THEY'VE CLOSED OFF THE TOOLS THAT WERE AVAILABLE TO RESEARCHERS AND ACADEMICS BEFORE.

AND THE GOVERNMENT NOT ONLY DUE TO THE BOARD, BUT DUE TO SOME OTHER LEGAL ISSUES, INCLUDING A CASE THAT WAS BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT THAT HAD GOT THROWN OUT HAD PAUSED MANY OF THE INITIATIVES THAT THEY WERE WORKING ON TO COUNTER FOREIGN INTERFERENCE, TO COUNTER SOME OF THE VERY HARMFUL DOMESTIC INFORMATION THAT WE SAW SPREADING SINCE 2020.

>> WHAT IS THE LANDSCAPE LIKE FOR RESEARCHERS WHO ARE LOOKING AT DISINFORMATION OR HOW LIES SPREAD ON THE INTERNET, KIND OF DOING THE PRIMARY RESEARCH?

>> IT'S BECOME A REALLY FRAUGHT LANDSCAPE.

I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS UNDERGONE THREATS, WHO HAS BEEN TARGETED FOR THEIR WORK ON DISINFORMATION.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER RESEARCHERS, INCLUDING THE FORMER RESEARCHERS AT THE STANFORD INTERNET OBSERVATORY, WHICH HAS SINCE HAD TO SHUT DOWN BECAUSE OF ATTACKS ON IT.

RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON AND A NUMBER OF OTHER ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS AND THINK TANKS HAVE ALSO BEEN HAULED BEFORE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES, HAVE BEEN HIT WITH FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS THAT CLAIM THEY ARE CONSPIRING TO CENSOR INDIVIDUALS, WHEN ALL THEY'RE DOING IS EXERCISING THEIR RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, THEIR ANALYSIS, ATTEMPTING TO INFORM THE PUBLIC.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE CHARACTERIZE THESE EFFORTS AS WHAT THEY ARE.

THEY CLAIM TO BE IN SUPPORT OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, THE FOLKS WHO ARE FILING THESE LAWSUITS.

BUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS QUASHING THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION OF THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS REALLY DISTURBING.

I DO THINK IT HOLDS SO MUCH IN COMMON WITH THE McCARTHY ERA THAT I'M TRYING TO RAISE THE ALARM BELL ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK MOST AMERICANS WOULD AGREE WITH THE HARASSMENT THAT ME AND MY FELLOW RESEARCHERS HAVE UNDERGONE.

>> YOU STARTED A NEW PROJECT, THE AMERICAN SUNLIGHT PROJECT.

WHAT'S IT ABOUT?

>> THE AMERICAN SUNLIGHT PROJECT IS ATTEMPTING TO INCREASE THE COST OF LIES THAT UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY.

WE'RE NOT LABELING THINGS AS TRUE OR FALSE, BUT WHAT WE ARE DOING IS LOOKING AT THE PROVENANCE AND MORPHING OF NARRATIVES THAT ARE AFFECTING PEOPLE'S EVERYDAY LIVES FROM THINGS LIKE DECISIONS TO VOTE TO ECONOMIC DECISIONS AND OTHERS THAT THEY MIGHT ENCOUNTER.

FOR US, DISINFORMATION IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE.

IT IS A DEMOCRATIC ONE.

AND WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS EDUCATE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SOME FRAUGHT PARTISAN CONVERSATION.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT SHOULD CONCERN US ALL.

>> THE INTERNET WAS BUILT AS A PLACE WHERE EVERYONE COULD HAVE ALMOST EQUAL FOOTING.

AS YOU'VE KIND OF SEEN THIS OVER THE PAST DECADES, IS THAT TRUE?

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

>> WELL, AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, I WOULD SAY THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE EQUAL FOOTING ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE KNOW FOR INSTANCE ON THREADS, WHICH IS META'S ANSWER TO TWITTER/X THAT POLITICAL CONTENT IS DEMOTED ON THIS PLATFORM.

THEY WANT PEOPLE TO BE TALKING ABOUT SPORTS AND ENTERTAINMENT AND FUN OTHER THINGS.

BUT POLITICAL CONTENT IS ACTUALLY REPRESSED IN ITS ALGORITHM.

WE KNOW FROM REALLY GOOD REPORTING THAT SEVERAL REPORTERS LIKE ZOE SCHIFFER HAVE DONE ABOUT TWITTER AND ELON MUSK'S TAKEOVER OF THE PLATFORM THAT ELON MUSK HIMSELF IS BOOSTED IN THE ALGORITHM WHEN HE DOESN'T LIKE WHEN HIS TWEETS DON'T DO WELL.

THAT'S NOT EQUAL FOOTING.

IT'S NOT THE INTERNET THAT WE USED TO SEE.

AND WE SEE POWERFUL EXECUTIVES AND MULTIBILLION PLATFORMS MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT CONTENT FLOATS AND WHAT CONTENT SINKS, WHAT CONTENT PEOPLE SEE, AND WHAT CONTENT IS HIDDEN.

AND THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IT.

AND THAT IS WHAT THE RESEARCHERS THAT I WORK WITH WHO HAVE BEEN HARASSED OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS ARE TRYING THE GET AT.

WE WANT MORE TRANSPARENCY.

AND IT'S QUITE IRONIC THAT WE'RE BEING ATTACKED FOR EXPLORING THESE ISSUES OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, HAVING A FULSOME CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT TRANSPARENCY AND OVERSIGHT IN THE UNITED STATES OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS LOOK LIKE.

PLENTY OF OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE HAD THAT CONVERSATION.

THE EUROPEAN UNION VERY FAMOUSLY HAS PASSED ITS DIGITAL SERVICES ACT WHICH IS NOW IN FORCE AND GOVERNING HOW THEY OVERSEE THE PLATFORMS.

WE ARE FAR, FAR BEHIND THEM IN THIS DERELICTION OF DUTY TO AMERICAN CITIZENS, AND FRANKLY TO CITIZENS OF THE WORLD.

WE HOUSE MANY OF THESE PLATFORMS.

AND IT'S OUR JOB AS THE UNITED STATES, AS THE COUNTRY WITH PERHAPS THE MOST ROBUST COMMITMENT TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO REGULATE THEM SO THAT AMERICANS KNOW AND GLOBAL CITIZENS KNOW HOW DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT THOSE PLATFORMS.

>> NINA JANKOWICZ FROM THE AMERICAN SUNLIGHT PROJECT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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