Anne Applebaum: Autocracy Is “Infecting U.S. Politics”

>>> NEXT, IN A MOMENTOUS DEAL STRUCK BETWEEN MOSCOW AND SEVERAL WESTERN NATIONS, THE BIGGEST PRISONER SWAP SINCE THE COLD WAR HAPPENED LAST WEEK.

24 DETAINEES WERE RETURNED TO THEIR HOME SOIL, INCLUDING AMERICAN "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTER EVAN GERSHKOVICH.

MANY RELEASED BY RUSSIA WERE OPPOSITION FIGURES CAPTURED FOR THEIR CRITICISM OF THE KREMLIN.

IN HER NEW BOOK, ANNE APPLEBAUM ARGUES THAT TODAY'S DICTATORS, THOUGH FRONTED BY ONE FIGURE, ARE HELD UP BY A SERIES OF COMPLEX NETWORKS.

AND SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THIS NE NO, MA'AM UNANIMOUS.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

ANNE, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

>> YOUR LATEST BOOK IS "AUTOCRACY IN: THE DEKE DAY TOMORROWS WHO WANT TO RUN THE WORLD."

THE WORLD INC SUGGESTS IT'S SORT OF A BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> SO, THE BOOK DESCRIBES A NETWORK, IT'S NOT AN ALLIANCE, AND NOT REALLY EVEN AN AXIS, IT'S A NETWORK OF DICTATORSHIPS THAT HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NATIONALALIST RUSSIA AND COMMUNIST CHINA AND VENEZUELA AND IRAN.

BUT THEY SHARE INTERESTS.

AND I WAS LOOKING FOR A META FORE TO DESCRIBE THEIR RELATIONSHIP, AND THE BEST ONE I COULD COME UP WITH IS A KIND OF BIG INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, WHERE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN -- THEY EACH HAVE THEIR OWN POLICIES AT HOME, THEIR OWN INTERESTS, BUT THEY DO HAVE AN OVERALL SET OF GROUP INTERESTS, AND SOME OF THEM ARE FINANCIAL.

THEY DO DEALS IN ONE ANOTHER'S COUNTRIES, THEY SELL -- CHINA SELLS SURVEILLANCE EQUIPMENT TO THE MEMBERS OF AUTOCRACY INC, THE RUSSIANS SELL WEAPONS, SOMETIMES SUPPLY MERCENARIES.

BUT THEY ALSO -- THEY COOPERATE IN OTHER WAYS MILITARILY, IN -- IN INFORMATION AND IN SHARED NARRATIVES, AS WELL.

>> SO, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A PARTICULAR GROUP, PART OF AN AXIS OF RESISTANCE TO WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES.

TELL ME WHO IS FIVE OR SIX TOP COUNTRIES IN THAT CAMP ARE.

>> WELL, THE THREE LARGEST ARE RUSSIA, CHINA, AND IRAN.

AND THEY'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT.

THEY ARE THE MOST AGGRESSIVE.

AND THEY HAVE THE MOST, YOU KNOW, THE MOST INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD.

I WOULD ADD TO THAT VENEZUELA AND CUBA IN LATIN AMERICA.

NICARAGUA.

SOME OF THESE ARE LESS IMPORTANT COUNTRIES.

IN AFRICA, THERE'S A GROUP OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALREADY VERY HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY RUSSIA, SO, CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC, OR MALI, IN MY BOOK, I WRITE A LOT ABOUT ZIMBABWE, WHICH IS A COUNTRY THAT INTERESTS ME BECAUSE I KNOW -- I'VE MET SOME OF THE OPPOSITION LEADERS, AND I, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE REALLY BRAVE, EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE.

AND SO, YOU -- AND YOU BEGIN TO SEE HOW THIS GROUP IS WORKING TOGETHER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW THEY COME TO ONE ANOTHER'S AID.

>> YOU SAY THEY HAVE NOT MUCH IDEOLOGICALLY IN COMMON, AND, INDEED, A VERY LEFT WING SOCIALIST MADURO IN VENEZUELA IS PART OF THIS, AND SO IS PUTIN, WHO IS A RIGHT WING AUTOCRAT NATIONALIST.

YET WE'RE SEEING RUSSIA AND VENEZUELA, AT LEAST MADURO, COMING TOGETHER.

EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE, AND HOW THAT FITS INTO THE THEME OF YOUR BOOK.

>> SO, THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME IDEOLOGY.

THEY DON'T USE THE SAME LANGUAGE.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THE VENEZUELAN REGIME DESCRIBES ITSELF AS A REGIME OF THE LEFT AND RUSSIA IS ALIGNED MORE WITH THE RIGHT, OR THE EXTREME RIGHT, OR FAR RIGHT, BUT THEY DO HAVE COMMON ENEMIES.

AND THEIR ENEMIES ARE ANYBODY WHO USES THE LANGUAGE OF RIGHTS, OF TRANSPARENCY, OF THE RULE OF LAW, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE THEIR -- THOSE ARE THEIR ENEMIES, AND, OF COURSE, THAT MEANS THEIR MOST IMPORTANT ENEMY IS US, MEANING ALL OF US WHO LIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD WHO USE THAT LANG WANL, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THEIR OWN OPPOSITION.

SO, WHETHER IT'S THE VENEZUELAN DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION OR THE NAVALNY MOVEMENT IN RUSSIA, THEY SEE THEM AS -- AS OPPONENTS.

AND SO, THAT'S WHY YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, STORIES OF PUTIN SENDING MERCENARIES TO VENEZUELA, TO HELP DEFEND MADURO.

MADURO HAS JUST RUN AN ELECTION, HE LOST VERY BADLY.

IT WAS ACTUALLY A LANDSLIDE FOR HIS OPPONENT.

THE OPPOSITION WAS WELL PREPARED AND THEY PROVED, THEY HAVE THE DOCUMENTS TO SHOW THAT IT WAS A LANDSLIDE.

HE'S NOT ACCEPTING THE ELECTORAL RESULT.

AND FOR PUTIN, THE IDEA THAT A DICTATOR LIKE MADURO, WHO SEEKS TO RULE WITH ABSOLUTE POWER LIKE HE DOES, WITH NO OPPOSITION, NO MEDIA, AND A TAME JUDICIARY, THE IDEA THAT HE WOULD LOSE TO AN ELECTION IS -- IS DAMAGING TO PUTIN.

AND SO, PUTIN SEEPS IT AS IN HIS INTEREST, MAYBE IT'S IN HIS FINANCIAL INTEREST, AS WELL, TO TRY TO HELP KEEP MADURO IN POWER.

AND PARTICULARLY IF WE GET TO A MOMENT WHEN THE VENEZUELAN ARMY IS NO LONGER RELIABLE, WHICH APPARENTLY SOME PARTS OF IT AREN'T, YOU COULD SEE MADURO RELYING ON THE TROOPS, OR, THE MERCENARIES OR THE WEAPONS OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

AND THAT IS HOW THESE REGIMES NOW WORK TOGETHER.

THEY ACTIVELY TRY TO KEEP ONE ANOTHER IN POWER.

AND AGAIN, IT'S NOT ABOUT SHARING AN IDEOLOGY, IT'S ABOUT DEFENDING THEMSELVES AGAINST -- AGAINST THE LANGUAGE AND THE ACTIONS OF -- OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD.

>> SO, IN THE GREAT SWEEP OF HISTORY, WHICH YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT, INCLUDING THE TWILIGHT OF DEMOCRACY, YOUR LAST BOOK, WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM A GRAND IDEOLOGICAL COLD WAR OF COMMUNISM VERSUS FREE MARKET CAPITALISM, LET'S SAY, AND NOW LEFT/RIGHT HAVEN'T BECOME PARTICULARLY USEFUL, BUT WE SAW BOTH IN YOUR BOOK, PEOPLE WHO WERE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ALIGNING WITH EACH OTHER, AND NOW IN THIS BOOK, PEOPLE WHO ARE AUTOCRATIC.

HOW ARE THEY RELATED?

>> THEY'RE RELATED.

I DON'T WANT TO CONFUSE EVERYTHING.

I THINK THE WORLD OF GENUINE AUTOCRACY, OF DICTATORSHIP IS DIFFERENT, EVEN FROM THE LIBERAL WORLD.

I DON'T THINK WHAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES OR EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENS IN RUSSIA OR CHINA, BUT I DO THINK THERE IS A KIND OF BATTLE OF IDEAS GOING ON, AND IT IS BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE A POWERFUL EXECUTIVE, A, YOU KNOW, A LEADER WHO HAS NO CHECKS AND BALANCES.

YOU KNOW, CLOSED STATES AGAINST PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD BE CHECKS AND BALANCES, THERE SHOULD BE THE RULE OF LAW, CITIZENS SHOULD HAVE MORE INFLUENCE OVER THEIR -- OVER THEIR GOVERNMENTS.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOW A KIND OF CONTEST BETWEEN OPEN SOCIETIES AND CLOSED SOCIETIES.

>> WAIT, WAIT, I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU HERE, BECAUSE I'M HEARING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF ECHOES IN TRUMP IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS ABOVE THE RULE OF LAW, AND FINDING IT -- DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT'S INFECTING U.S.

POLITICS AND CAN YOU EVEN PIN IT ON THE TRUMP PHENOMENON?

>> AH, IT IS ABSOLUTELY INFECTING U.S.

POLITICS.

I DON'T WANT TO CONNECT IT DIRECTLY TO THE AUTOCRATIC WORLD, ALTHOUGH I DO THINK THAT THE NARRATIVES, THE INFORMATION OPERATIONS THAT PUTIN HAS RUN IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN EUROPE OVER THE LAST YEARS HAVE HAD AN IMPACT.

THE IDEA THAT AUTOCRACY IS STABLE AND SAFE AND DEMOCRACY IS DIVIDED AND DEGENERATE, ALL THAT LANGUAGE THAT YOU CAN HEAR COMING OUT OF RUSSIA, COMING OUT OF EVEN SOME AFRICAN STATES, YOU CAN HEAR IT ECHO IN AMERICA VERY OFTEN, AND NOT BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SOMEHOW PAID BY THE RUSSIANS, IT'S NOT A SECRET OPERATION, BUT BY PEOPLE WHO ALSO BELIEVE IT.

YOU NOW HAVE PART OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SPECTRUM, WHICH I THINK IS WILLING TO ACCEPT A LEAD WHOLE HAS FEWER CHECKS AND BALANCES, AN EXECUTIVE WHO HAS NO, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S NO NEUTRAL INSTITUTIONS WHO ARE ABLE TO STOP HIM, WHETHER IT'S -- WHETHER IT'S A NEUTRAL JUDICIARY, OR IF IT'S A NEUTRAL CIVIL SERVICE OR OTHER BODIES IN AMERICA.

THERE'S A TRADITION THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, ISN'T THERE TO GO AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S ENEMIES, WHICH IS WHAT PROSECUTORS WOULD DO IN AUTOCRACIES.

YOU HAVE SEEN PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THAT.

SO, HAVING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BE, YOU KNOW, OPERATE AT THE WILL OF THE PRESIDENT, OR, AT THE WHIM OF THE PRESIDENT, TO CARRY OUT, YOU KNOW, OPERATIONS AND INVESTIGATIONS ACCORDING TO HIS POLITICAL NEEDS.

THAT'S NOW HOW IT OPERATED IN THE PAST.

AND WE COULD, YOU KNOW, WE SEE INCREASINGLY ACCEPTANCE FOR THOSE KINDS OF IDEAS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS AT STAKE IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT SOUNDS ODD, BECAUSE I KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM AND YOU PROBABLY KNOW WHERE I COME FROM AND BELIEVING IN DEMOCRACY AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT WHY IS IT THAT THE UNITED STATES OR WE IN THE WEST HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY TO OTHER COUNTRIES, THIS IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD RULE YOURSELVES, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE STRONG LEADERS, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE MESSINESS OF DEMOCRACY, YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKS AND BALANCES.

MAYBE THEY LOOK AROUND AND SAY, WAIT, WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR SOCIETY.

ARE WE MORALALLY ON THE HIGH GROUND WHERE WE CAN SAY THEY'RE WRONG?

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, YEAH, I DO WE THINK WE ARE.

AND I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH SAYING THAT, AND I DON'T THINK MOST AMERICANS SHOULD, BUT SECONDLY, YOU KNOW, THE DISINTEGRATION OF VENEZUELA, THE CRISIS THAT THE AUTOCRATIC REGIME HAS CREATED, YOU KNOW, WAS THE WEALTHIEST COUNTRY IN SOUTH AMERICA, NOW IT'S THE POOREST, IT CREATES MILLIONS OF REFUGEES.

MANY OF WHOM SHOW UP AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER IN THE U.S. YOU KNOW, VENEZUELA'S A DESTABILIZING FACTOR IN OUR HEMISPHERE AND OUR DIRECT AREA.

THESE COUNTRIES ARE A PROBLEM FOR US.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST THAT, YOU KNOW, WE -- THIS IS SOME KIND OF MORAL OR, YOU KNOW, PHILOSOPHICAL ISSUE ABOUT HOW PEOPLE SHOULD RUN THEIR COUNTRIES.

THERE IS A DIRECT CHALLENGE BEING PRESENTED TO US, TO OUR ALLIES, YOU KNOW, IN SOUTH AMERICA, IN EUROPE, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BY THIS GROUP OF COUNTRIES.

AND IN ADDITION TO BEING A CHALLENGE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF IDEAS, IT IS ALSO A REAL GEOPOLITICAL CHALLENGE.

SO I -- I DON'T THINK WE CAN BE NEUTRAL IN THIS ARGUMENT, OR SAY WE DON'T CARE, YOU KNOW, LIVE AND LET LIVE, AND THOUGH I SHOULD ADD THAT I DO THINK THERE ARE OTHER MONARCHIES OR DICTATORSHIPS WHO WE CAN HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WHO DON'T HAVE THE SAME FOCUS ON UNDERMINING US OR DESTROYING US.

SO, I -- >> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LIKE SAUDI ARABIA.

>> YEAH, OR, YOU KNOW, MOROCCO, YOU KNOW, EVEN A COUNTRY LIKE VIETNAM, WHICH IS A COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE -- HAS NOT PUT AT THE CENTER OF ITS FOREIGN POLICY, YOU KNOW, THE UNDERMINING OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE -- OR THE UNDERMINING OF OTHER DEMOCRACIES IN ITS REGION.

SO, THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DICTATORSHIPS.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE COLD WAR AND THERE'S SOME KIND OF BERLIN WALL AND THERE ARE GOOD GUYS ON ONE SIDE AND BAD GUYS ON THE OTHER.

I'M TALKING ABOUT A VERY PARTICULAR GROUP WHO HAS A PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, SET OF ATTITUDES TOWARDS US AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN JUST IGNORE IT.

>> YOU USE WORDS LIKE CLEP TOCK ARE SI, PEOPLE ARE STEALING MONEY, THAT SORT OF THING, CORRUPTION, AND ALSO AUTOCRACY.

IS THERE SOME INTERRELATION BETWEEN THE TWO?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S NOT EXACTLY THE SAME WORD.

I MEAN NOT JUST ORDINARY CORRUPTION, BUT GRAND-SCALE CORRUPTION.

YOU HAVE A STATE, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE RUSSIA OR A ZIMBABWE, WHERE A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE BECOME VERY RICH, ONLY BECAUSE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE STATE, AND THEY ARE ABLE TO TAKE MONEY OUT OF STATE COFFERS AND PRIVATE TIZ IT AND TAKE IT ABROAD AND HIDE IT, SOMETIMES, IN WESTERN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

AND THAT'S WHAT I MEAN.

VERY OFTEN, WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF CORRUPTION, IT LEADS IN THE DIRECTION OF GREATER AND HARSHER AUTHORITARIANISM OR AUTOCRACY, BECAUSE ONCE PEOPLE HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY, THEN THEY -- THEY -- >> IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA?

>> IT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA.

AND I TELL THAT STORY IN THE BOOK.

ONCE YOU HAVE THAT MONEY, YOU CAN'T TOLERATE IN YOUR SOCIETY PEOPLE WHO WANT TRANSPARENCY, OR PEOPLE WHO WANT THE RULE OF LAW.

YOU KNOW, NO, YOU NEED RULE BY LAW, MEANING THE LAW IS WHATEVER YOU SAY IT IS, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RISK SOME JUDGE IN A COURT SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU BROKE THE LAW.

AND SO, VERY OFTEN, IN MANY CASES, NOT IN ALL OF THEM, BUT IN MANY CASES, THESE SOCIETIES ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE RUN BY BILLIONAIRES, YOU KNOW, OR -- OR, YOU KNOW, BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENRICHED THEIR FAMILIES OR A GROUP OF BUSINESSMEN WHO ARE VERY CLOSE TO THEM.

>> AND THAT INCLUDES PUTIN, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY INCLUDES PUTIN.

THAT'S HOW PUTIN CAME TO POWER.

HE CAME TO POWER AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS PART OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY PROCESS THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1990s WHERE MONEY WENT OUT OF RUSSIA, IT WAS LAUNDERRED ABROAD.

IT WAS HIDDEN IN DIFFERENT PLACES AND THEN IT WAS BROUGHT IN ENRICHING SMALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

AND PUTIN WAS ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THAT SHIFT.

ESSENTIALLY, THEY PRIVATIZED THE MONEY, I MEAN, THEY TOOK TAXPAYER MONEY AND KEPT IT FOR THEMSELVES.

SO, YOU KNOW, SO -- AND VERY OFTEN, WHEN YOU'RE IN THAT KIND OF POSITION, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, YOU CAN'T -- YOU DON'T WANT ANY OPPOSITION, BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION WOULD REVIEW THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THE LAW, OR YOU'VE -- OR AT LEAST THAT WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS UNJUST.

AND THEY -- THEY DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AND THEREFORE THEY -- THEY LOCK UP THEIR OPPONENTS.

PUTIN'S MOST IMPORTANT POLITICAL OPPONENT IN THE LAST DECADE WAS ALEXEI NAVALNY WHO WAS MURDERED IN A SIBERIAN PRISON CAMP, AND WHAT WAS NAVALNY?

HE WAS AN ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER.

HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY AS HE TALKED ABOUT THEFT.

AND THAT WAS -- FIRST OF ALL, THAT'S WHAT VALUE BEGANIZED PEOPLE AND REALLY MOVED PEOPLE ALL ACROSS RUSSIA, AND THAT WAS ALSO WHAT REALLY ANGERED PUTIN AND FRIGHTENED PUTIN AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT -- HOW MUCH MONEY THEY'VE STOLEN AND THEY NOW HOW UNFAIR THEIR SOCIETY IS, AND TO HAVE SOMEONE LIKE NAVALNY, SOMEONE AS ELOQUENT AS NAVALNY TALKING ABOUT IT GENERALLY THREATENED THEM.

>> LET ME READ YOU A SENTENCE YOU WROTE THAT STRUCK ME.

EVERYONE ASSUMES THAT IN A MORE OPEN, INTERCONNECTED WORLD, DEMOCRACY AND LIBERAL IDEAS WOULD SPREAD TO THE AUTOCRATIC STATES, BUT THEN YOU SAY, THE OPPOSITE HAPPENED.

IN FACT, A BROAD THEME OF YOUR LAST TWO BOOKS IS HOW GLOBALIZATION, WE THOUGHT, WAS GOING TO MAKE THE WORLD MUCH MORE INTERCONNECTED, AND SOMEHOW, WE MISSED SOMETHING BIG.

>> SO, WE -- WE UNDERSTOOD, WE BELIEVED THAT SOMEHOW OUR IDEAS WOULD, IN SOME KIND OF FREE MARKET OF IDEAS, WOULD FLOW FROM, AS WE USED TO SAY, WEST TO EAST, AND THEY WOULD INEVITABLY BE ADOPTED BY OTHER PEOPLE, AND THEY WOULD, YOU KNOW, SOMEHOW THE WORLD WOULD BE TRANSFORMED THROUGH INTEGRATION.

AND INSTEAD -- AND I SHOULD SAY, IT WASN'T JUST NAIVE AMERICANS WHO THOUGHT THAT, THERE WERE CHINESE AND RUSSIANS THAT THOUGHT THAT IN THE 1990s.

SO, IT WASN'T JUST A WESTERN IDEA.

BUT INSTEAD, WHAT HAPPENED WAS, PARTICULARLY IN RUSSIA AND IN THE POST-SOVIET WORLD, THE WAY THAT -- IT WASN'T REALLY CAPITALISM, BUT THE WAY MARKETS WERE CHANGED AND THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM WAS CHANGED ENRICHED VERY FEW PEOPLE, AND THEN IT WAS IN THEIR INTEREST TO REMAIN IN POWER.

SO, THE FLOW OF IDEAS DIDN'T WORK THE WAY THAT WE THOUGHT IT WOULD.

>> BUT DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN IN THE WEST, AS WELL, THAT SOMEHOW THIS GLOBALIZATION ENRICH A VERY FEW PEOPLE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT LEFT OUT AND THE POWERFUL RICH STAYED IN POWER?

>> THAT IS -- THAT'S VERY TRUE.

AND, AGAIN, THAT'S PART -- I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE ONLY REASON -- NOT THE ONLY EXPLANATION FOR THE BACKLASH THAT WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK IT'S MORE CULTURAL THAN ECONOMIC, BUT THERE'S -- THE AUTOCRATIC WORLD PLAYS A ROLE IN THAT, AS WELL.

THE SHIFT IN THE NATURE OF THE ECONOMY, THE RAPID DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES, THE RAPID SOCIAL CHANGES, ALL OF THAT LEFT A LOT OF PEOPLE FEELING CAST ASIDE OR LEFT OUT, BUT ALSO, ANY ERA OF MAKE PEOPLE LOOK FOR A SINGLE LEADER, OR AN AUTOCRAT, OR SOMEONE WHO CAN GUARANTEE THEIR SECURITY.

WHEN EVERYTHING IS CHANGING, PEOPLE BECOME MORE OPEN TO AUTOCRATIC NARRATIVES, AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE AS MUCH IN THE WESTERN WORLD AS IT IS IN THE YOU A CATTIC WORLD.

>> WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING TO FIGHT THIS BIG TREND?

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE IT AND NAME IT AND UNDERSTAND IT.

SECONDLY, WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT CLEANING UP OUR OWN ACT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE ASKED SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AREN'T WE LIKE THAT, TOO, AND THE ANSWER IS YES.

WE SHOULD CLEAN UP OUR OWN INTERNAL WAY OR FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WORK, TO STOP THE MONEY LAUNDERING, STOP THE SECRECY, WE SHOULD MAKE OUR OWN POLITICAL -- THE NONE OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM MORE TRANSPATIENT.

AGAIN, IT'S THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, THE OPAQUENESS OF OUR -- THE FINANCIAL WORLD AND THE POLITICAL WORLD THAT I THINK IS VERY -- IS DANGEROUS.

INTERNATIONALLY, WE SHOULD WORK ON OUR ALLIANCES, WE SHOULD REINFORCE THEM.

AND WE CAN WORK -- MANY OF THESE PROBLEMS CAN BE WORKED ON TOGETHER.

THE UNITED STATES IS SO MUCH STRONGER WHEN IT WORKS TOGETHER WITH ALLIES, WHETHER IT'S IN UKRAINE OR WHETHER IT'S IN THE MOST RECENT PRISONER SWAP, WHICH HAPPENED THANKS TO THE COOPERATION OF GERMANY, BUT ALSO POLAND, AND SEVERAL -- AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES.

THINKING ABOUT OURSELVES AS A MEMBER OF THIS GLOBAL COMMUNITY THAT WANTS TO PROTECT THIS SET OF VALUES, I THINK, IS A GREAT GUIDE FOR FOREIGN POLICY.

IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING, AGAIN, IT'S NOT THE COLD WAR, IT'S NOT LIKE WE CAN IDENTIFY IMMEDIATELY WHO OUR PARTNERS ARE, YOU KNOW, JUST BY THE KIND OF LANGUAGE THAT THEY USE, BUT UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A GLOBAL CONFLICT IS THE BEGINNING OF CHANGE.

>> ANNE APPLEBAUM, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.