August 7, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THANK YOU, MADAME VICE PRESIDENT, FOR THE TRUST YOU PUT IN ME, BUT MAYBE MORE SO, THANK YOU FOR BRINGING BACK THE JOY.

>> A JUBILANT DEBUT FOR COACH TIM WALZ, AS KAMALA HARRIS'S VP.

BUT WHAT ARE HIS POLICIES?

AND WHAT COMES NEXT?

I ASK CONGRESSMAN BRENDAN BOYLE.

>>> THEN -- >> WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO AS THE UNITED STATES IS TO KEEP THE SITUATION FROM SPINNING OUT INTO AN ALL-OUT REGIONAL WAR.

>> NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

WHAT DOES BIDEN HOPE TO ACHIEVE IN HIS FINAL MONTHS IN OFFICE?

>>> ALSO AHEAD, WE GET THE LATEST FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, AS FEARS OF A WIDER WAR CONTINUE TO GROW.

>>> AND THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN SUDAN GOES FROM BAD TO WORSE.

WE HAVE THE LATEST WITH WILL CARTER OF THE NOR WEE YAN REFUGEE COUNCIL.

>>> AND, HOPE AND HEROISM AT THE PARIS OLYMPICS.

AS THE REFUGEE TEAM BAGS THEIR FIRST MEDAL, I'M JOINED BY SYRIAN SWIMMER AND NOW VETERAN OLYMPIAN YUSRA MAR DEE KNEE.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WELL, ONE DAY IN, AND IT'S BEEN A RAPTUREOUS RECEPTION FOR VP CANDIDATE AND MINNESOTA GOVERNOR TIM WALZ.

TODAY, THEY ARE STUMPING OUT IN WISCONSIN AFTER AN ENTHUSIASTIC DEBUT IN PHILADELPHIA.

KAMALA HARRIS INTRODUCING TIM WALZ TO A NATION THAT DOESN'T KNOW HIM THAT WELL.

AND SPEAKING TO THE CROWD, WALZ TRIED TO HAMMER HOME HIS MINNESOTA VALUES.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> MINNESOTA STRENGTH COMES FROM OUR VALUES.

OUR COMMITMENT TO WORKING TOGETHER.

TO SEEING PAST OUR DIFFERENCES, TO ALWAYS BEING WILLING TO LEND A HELPING HAND.

THOSE ARE THE SAME VALUES I LEARNED ON THE FAMILY FARM AND TRIED TO INSTILL IN MY STUDENTS.

I TOOK IT TO CONGRESS, AND TO THE STATE CAPITOL, AND NOW, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS AND I ARE RUNNING TO TAKE THOSE VERY VALUES TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> BUT HOW WILL THIS TALK TRANSLATE INTO POLICY?

AND WHAT ELSE WILL WE SEE FROM WALZ ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL?

JOINING ME NOW IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THE MINNESOTA GOVERNOR WELL, BRENDAN BOYLE IS A LOCK-TIME FRIEND OF WALZ, A CONGRESSMAN FROM THE CRUCIAL SWING STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM PHILADELPHIA, BRENDAN BOYLE.

WE APPRECIATE THE TIME.

SO, LET'S JUST GET STARTED BY TAKING A MINUTE TO DISCUSS WHAT WE SAW LAST NIGHT, AND THAT WAS REALLY THE BRANDING OF GOVERNOR WALZ.

SOMEBODY MOST AMERICANS DIDN'T KNOW MUCH OF UNTIL LAST NIGHT, AND WE GOT A SENSE OF HIS BACKGROUND, GREW UP ON A FARM, AS HE SAID, WENT TO SCHOOL WITH MOST OF HIS RELATIVES, THE TOWN WAS SO SMALL.

HE WAS A HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER, HE WAS A FOOTBALL COACH, HE SERVED IN THE NATIONAL GUARD.

AND THEN, I'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU LISTEN TO WHAT KAMALA HARRIS SAID ABOUT THIS, AND HOW SHE VIEWS THE MAN SHE'S NOW APPOINTED TO BE HER VP PICK.

>> TO HIS FELLOW VETERANS, HE IS SERGEANT MAJOR WALZ.

TO HIS FORMER HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS, HE WAS MR. WALZ.

AND TO HIS FORMER HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL PLAYERS, HE WAS COACH.

>> WHO IS HE TO YOU?

>> AH, WELL, IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, BIANNA.

AND WHILE HE WAS MY CONGRESSIONAL COLLEAGUE, I ACTUALLY DID CALL HIM COACH, BECAUSE ONE OF THE MANY THINGS ON HIS RESUME THAT ACTUALLY HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED THE LAST 24 HOURS IS, HE WAS THE COACH OF OUR CONGRESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM, SO I ALWAYS CALLED HIM WITH GREAT AFFECTION COACH.

TIM IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAW LAST NIGHT HERE IN MY HOMETOWN AND DISTRICT OF PHILADELPHIA.

AN AUTHENTIC AND GENUINE PERSON, A GUY WHO COMES FROM HUMBLE, RURAL, BLUE COLLAR ROOTS.

ACTUALLY STILL LIVES EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF COMMUNITY.

HIGHEST RANKING ENLISTED MAN TO EVER SERVE IN CONGRESS.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, HE WAS A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER FOR DECADES, AND LITERALLY, THAT'S WHAT HE WAS DOING IN 2006 WHEN HE WAS ASKED TO RUN FOR CONGRESS AND HE PULLED OFF THIS REMARKABLE UPSET IN A REPUBLICAN-LEANING DISTRICT, IN FACT, I DO REMEMBER TALKING TO HIM RIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION IN 2016, WE GOT BACK TO D.C. ABOUT A WEEK LATER, AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW HE HAD JUST SURVIVED IN HIS DISTRICT, DONALD TRUMP WON HIS DISTRICT BY 15 POINTS, AND YET, TIM WALZ WAS STILL ABLE TO HOLD ON.

I THINK IT WAS ACTUALLY THE LARGEST OVERPERFORMANCE OF ANY MEMBER OF CONGRESS THAT CYCLE.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE KNOW WHO TIM IS, AND KNOW HIS VALUES.

>> AND MAYBE IT'S PERHAPS THEY KNOW WHO HE IS THAT HE WAS MANAGED TO SQUEAK A WIN IN IN 2016, BECAUSE HE'S EVEN ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THAT WAS A VERY CLOSE CALL.

AND AS HE WAS TRYING TO DECIPHER WHO THIS TRUMP VOTER IS, AND WHAT TRUMP'S APPEAL IS, THERE IS CONCERN THAT SOME OF HIS POLICIES, ESPECIALLY AS GOVERNOR, ARE MORE PROGRESSIVE THAN SOME OF THOSE UNDECIDED VOTERS, SOME OF THOSE NEVER TRUMP VOTERS, THAT KAMALA HARRIS IS DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET TO VOTE FOR HER, THAT THEY'RE JUST NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT, AND LET ME JUST PULL UP SOME OF HIS POLICIES SO OUR VIEWERS HAVE GET A SENSE OF WHAT HE'S BEEN FOCUSED ON AS GOVERNOR.

THE ISSUE OF ABORTION, HE SIGN INTO LAW THE PROTECT REPRODUCTIVE OPTIONS ACT IN JANUARY 2023.

IN TERMS OF GENDER AFFIRMING CARE, HE SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT PROTECTED HEALTH CARE SERVICES.

UNIVERSAL SCHOOL MEALS, HE SIGNED A BILL INTO LAW LAST YEAR ON THAT FRONT.

FOR FRUITION, HE MADE COLLEGE TUITION FREE FOR STUDENTS FROM FAMILIES EARNING LESS THAN $80,000.

ON THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION, WHICH, AS YOU KNOW, IS A CRUCIAL ISSUE, ONE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING THEIR TOP ISSUE THIS ELECTION CYCLE, HE MADE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ELIGIBLE FOR MINNESOTA'S DRIVER'S LICENSES AND IN TERMS OF VOTING RIGHTS, HE RESTORED VOTING RIGHTS TO MORE THAN 55,000 FORMERLY INCARCERATED PEOPLE.

AS YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS ARE ALREADY LATCHING ONTO THIS RECORD.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS A POTENTIAL WEAKNESS FOR THE TICKET?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE NO CONCERNS AT ALL, IN FACT, I BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ ON THAT LIST HE DID BEFORE HE WON RE-ELECTION, SO, OBVIOUSLY HIS VOTERS IN MINNESOTA, WHICH HAS SOMETIMES BEEN REFERRED TO AS THE REDDEST BLUE STATE IN AMERICA, IT IS A STATE WHERE REPUBLICANS COMPETE AND DO WELL STATEWIDE, IN FACT, BEFORE TIM, THERE WAS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, TIM PAWLENTY WHO WAS ABLE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

AND YET, WITH THAT RECORD, TIM WALZ WON RE-ELECTION.

YOU MENTIONED ON ONE OF THOSE ISSUES, ABORTION.

I THINK FRANKLY ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ISSUES OF THIS CAMPAIGN IS GOING TO BE THE ABORTION ISSUE, SPECIFICALLY THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP, AS HE BRAGS HIMSELF, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERTURNING ROE VERSUS WADE.

HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FACT THAT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE IS NOW DENIED IN CLOSE TO HALF OF THE STATES IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND IF HE GETS IN THROUGH SOMETHING CALLED THE COMSTOCK ACT, HE WILL BE ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY END ABORTION, OR END THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR A WOMAN IN THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER YOU'RE IN A RED STATE OR A BLUE STATE.

SO, I EXPECT THAT ACTUALLY THAT RECORD WILL CONTRAST QUITE NICELY TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP FIRST DID IN OFFICE, AND WHAT HE'S PROPOSING TO DO IF HE WERE TO GET BACK THERE.

>> SPEAKING OF DONALD TRUMP, HE AND OTHER REPUBLICANS WE SHOULD NOTE, EVEN PRIOR TO KAMALA HARRIS MAKING HER VP PICK, REALLY VOICED THEIR CONCERN PUBLICLY ABOUT SPECIFICALLY THE GOVERNOR OF YOUR STATE, OF PENNSYLVANIA, JOSH SHAPIRO, BEING ON THAT TICKET.

AND APPEARED TO SIGH A BREATH OF RELIEF ON THE NEWS OF TIM WALZ BEING HER CHOICE.

HERE'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID THIS MORNING.

I'M SORRY -- WE DON'T HAVE THE SOUND, BUT HE SAID THAT HE'S A VERY LIBERAL MAN, AND THAT HE'S A SHOCKING PICK, AND THAT HE COULDN'T BE MORE THRILLED.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT RESPONSE?

>> WELL, DON'T WORRY, I'M NOT TOO DISAPPOINTED THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE THAT AUDIO OF DONALD TRUMP.

I'VE EVER HEARD ENOUGH OF HIM.

I WOULD SAY IT BRINGS ME BACK TO EIGHT YEARS AGO.

I REMEMBER HOW RELIEVED DEMOCRATS WERE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD WON THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AND I HAD A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC FRIENDS TELLING ME JUST HOW EASY THAT GENERAL ELECTION WAS GOING TO BE, AND I SAID TO THEM THEN, AND I'M ON THE RECORD, ACTUALLY, EIGHT YEARS AGO SAYING THIS, AND I'LL REPEAT IT, BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

IT IS FUNNY IN POLITICS HOW SOMETIMES THE PERSON YOU THOUGHT YOU WANTED TO RUN AGAINST, OR YOU THOUGHT WAS THE IDEAL OPPONENT, ENDS UP BEING THE PERSON WHO ULTIMATELY WINS THE RACE.

WE NEED, AND I SAY THIS AS PENNSYLVANIA'S BIGGEST CHEERLEADER, WHETHER IT'S IN POLITICS OR SPORTS, WE ARE THE LARGEST, AND I THINK MOST IMPORTANT BATTLEGROUND STATE, BUT WE'RE NOT THE ONLY BATTLEGROUND STATE.

WE NEED TO ALSO WIN IN MICHIGAN, WE NEED TO ALSO WIN IN WISCONSIN.

WE NEED TO WIN OR AT LEAST BE VERY COMPETITIVE IN THE SUN BELT, AS WELL.

SO, I THINK THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT DECIDED TO HAVE A PARTNER THAT SHE WAS MOST COMFORTABLE WITH, WHO COULD ACTUALLY HELP HER ONCE IN OFFICE BE A GREAT TEAM PLAYER, BUT ALSO BE SOMEONE WHO COULD AUTHENTICALLY SPEAK TO THE VOTERS WHO, OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, WE'VE BEEN LOSING NOT JUST IN PLACES LIKE PENNSYLVANIA, BUT ALSO IN MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, AND THROUGHOUT THE MIDWEST.

>> GIVEN HOW CRUCIAL WINNING PENNSYLVANIA IN PARTICULAR IS, ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT SHE DIDN'T GO WITH YOUR GOVERNOR, WHO, AS WE NOTED, EXTREMELY POPULAR THERE.

>> YOU KNOW, I SERVED ALONGSIDE JOSH IN THE STATE HOUSE ACTUALLY FROM NEIGHBORING STATE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS, HE'S A LONGTIME FRIEND.

TIM WALZ, OR COACH, IS ALSO A LONGTIME FRIEND, AS ARE ONE OR TWO OTHERS WHO WERE UNDER CONSIDERATION, SO, I REALLY -- MY VIEW GOING INTO THIS WAS THAT IT WAS ENTIRELY THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE'S DECISION, THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN, THE WAY IT SHOULD BE, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A CRUCIAL PERSONAL DECISION.

SO, FRANKLY, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD HAVE SURPRISED ME IS IF SHE HAD NOT PICKED SOMEONE THAT WAS ON THAT VERY PUBLIC LIST.

I REALLY THOUGHT ANY ONE OF THEM COULD HAVE BEEN PICKED, AND FRANKLY, EACH OF THEM BROUGHT DIFFERENT STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES TO HELP BALANCE OUT THE TICKET.

>> JUST TO GO BACK TO THE CONCERNS ABOUT TIM WALZ'S RECORD, AND HOW HE'S BEING PORTRAYED NOW AND DESCRIBED BY REPUBLICANS, SPECIFICALLY BY THE TRUMP/VANCE TICKET.

THERE'S ONE LINE THAT PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR ARE REALLY FOCUSING ON, WHEN HE SAID ONE PERSON'S SOCIALISM IS ANOTHER PERSON'S NEIGHBORLINESS.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU AGREE WITH JONATHAN CHAITS ANALYSIS, OF HOW SHE SHOULD NAVIGATE THIS TICKET.

AND HE SAID, IT HELPS HER MOVE TO THE CENTER IN POLICY AND ANYTHING ELSE IMPORTANT.

>> YOU KNOW, SINCERELY, I DON'T THINK THIS PICK WAS ACTUALLY ANYTHING ABOUT IDEOLOGY, LEFT, RIGHT, OR CENTER.

IT REALLY BOILED DOWN TO, WHO WAS THE PERSON WHO SHE WAS MOST COMFORTABLE WITH AS A PARTNER, BOTH ON THE CAMPAIGN, AS WELL AS, CRUCIALLY, WHEN IT COMES TO GOVERNING.

THE END OF THE DAY, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE ULTIMATELY FOR 99.9% OF VOTERS, THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE ABOUT J.D.

VANCE OR ABOUT TIM WALZ.

IT WILL BE ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS AND HER AGENDA AND WHAT SHE IS OFFERING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, VERSUS THE VERY BADWARD, UGLY, DIVISIVE VISION THAT DONALD TRUMP IS OFFERING.

>> AND SHE HAS 90 DAYS TO SHOWCASE TO THE COUNTRY THAT VISION.

BRENDAN BOYLE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, TURNING TO THE MIDDLE EAST NOW, ISRAEL IS HOLDING ITS BREATH AS IT BRACES FOR RETALIATION FROM IRAN AND ITS PROXIES, IN RESPONSE TO THE KILLING OF HEZBOLLAH'S TOP MILITARY CHIEF.

THE WHERE AND THE HOW OF THE STRIKE ARE UNCLEAR, BUT U.S. INTELLIGENCE REPORTS PREPARATIONS ARE ALREADY UNDER WAY.

THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT HAS SAID THAT IF THE WEST WANTS TO PREVENT A WAR, IT SHOULD FORCE ISRAEL TO ACCEPT A CEASE-FIRE.

WHETHER A HOSTAGE DEAL AND AVOIDING A REGIONAL WALL ARE POSSIBLE WILL DEPEND ON YAHYA SINWAR, CHOSEN TO REPLACE THE RECENTLY ASSASSINATED ISMAIL HANIYEH AS THE POLITICAL HEAD OF HAMAS.

LET'S TURN TO JEREMY DIAMOND, WHO JOINS US NOW FROM NORTHERN ISRAEL.

LET ME FIRST JUST GET YOU TO RESPOND, WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM ISRAELIS, FOLLOWING THIS ANNOUNCEMENT THAT YAHYA SINWAR WILL BE REPLACING HANIYEH AS THE POLITICAL CHIEF OF HAMAS?

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

>> WELL, YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK WHAT -- FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IT MEANS IS IT SIGNALS THE DIRECTION THAT HAMAS IS GOING INTO, AND IT ALSO EFFECTIVELY OBLITERATES ANY DISTINCTION THAT HAS EXISTED BETWEEN HAMAS AS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT AND HAMAS AS A MILITANT GROUP, CONSIDERED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, OF COURSE, BY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.

YAHYA SINWAR WAS CONSIDERED KIND OF A KEY BRIDGE BETWEEN THE MILITANT FACTION AND THE POLITICAL FACTION OF HAMAS, AND -- BUT ULTIMATELY, AT THE END OF THE DAY, HE WAS AND REMAINS HAMAS'S TOP COMMANDER ON THE GROUND IN GAZA.

AND SO, BY ELEVATING HIM, NOT ONLY IS IT OBLITERATING THAT DISTINCTION, IT IS ELEVATING A MAN CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THE MASTERMINDS BEHIND THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, AND A MAN CONSIDERED TO BE MORE EXTREME, MORE OF A HARDLINER WITHIN HAMAS, WHERE ISMAIL HANIYEH, THE LEADER ASSASSINATED LAST WEEK, HE WAS CONSIDERED TO BE SOMEWHAT MORE PRAGMATIC WITHIN HAMAS.

SOMEWHAT MORE WILLING TO GET TO A DEAL AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

SO, FOR ISRAELIS, IT IS CLEARLY SENDING A SIGNAL THAT HAMAS IS IN NO WAY REPENITENT ABOUT THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, THAT IT INTENDS TO MOVE FORWARD WITH SOMEBODY WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE ATTACKS.

AND THE ISRAELI MILITARY AND ISRAELI LEADERS ARE VOWING THAT THIS DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING FOR THEM, IN TERMS OF YAHYA SINWAR BEING PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE FOR ISRAEL, AND AT THE VERY TOP OF ITS -- OF ITS KILL LIST, EFFECTIVELY.

>> AND HERE WE ARE, ENTERING ANOTHER NIGHT THERE IN ISRAEL.

THERE YOU ARE IN HAIFA, IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY, AS ISRAEL CONTINUES TO ANTICIPATE A HEZBOLLAH, OR BOTH, OTHER PROXIES, INCLUDING THE HOUTHIS.

THE UNITED STATES HAS TRIED TO PUT UP A PUBLIC FRONT IN TERMS OF A DETERRENCE THERE IN THE REGION.

BUT WHAT IS ANTICIPATED NOW?

BECAUSE IT DOES STILL APPEAR THAT SOME SORT OF RESPONSE IS INEVITABLE.

>> IT CERTAINLY SEEMS THAT WAY, BUT JUST CONSIDER THE FACT THAT WE ARE NOW MORE THAN A WEEK REMOVED FROM THE ASSASSINATION OF HANIYEH, MORE THAN A WEEK REMOVED FROM IRAN'S INITIAL THREATS OF CARRYING OUT SOME KIND OF RETALIATORY STRIKE.

AND THE FACT THAT IT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET COULD INDICATE A FEW DIFFERENT THINGS.

IT COULD, FIRST OF ALL, INDICATE THAT IRAN IS HAVING TROUBLE GETTING ALL OF ITS PROXIES IN LINE TO CARRY OUT SOME KIND OF A COORDINATED ATTACK.

THAT IT IS PERHAPS PREPARING FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF A LARGER, MORE SIGNIFICANT REGIONAL WAR.

OR IT COULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT THE DIPLOMATIC MANEUVERING THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING MAKE BE MAKING IRAN RECONSIDER, RECALCULATE, RETHINK THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT WANTS TO CARRY OUT A RETALIATORY STRIKE, OR EVEN JUST SIMPLY HOW SIGNIFICANT OF A STRIKE IT ACTUALLY WILL CARRY OUT.

AND TODAY, WE GOT A COUPLE OF INDICATIONS IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, THE FIRST OF WHICH BEING THAT THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT SPOKE WITH THE FRENCH PRESIDENT, EMMANUEL MACRON, AND TOLD HIM TODAY THAT IF AMERICA AND THE WEST REALLY WANT TO PREVENT A REGIONAL WAR, THAT THEY SHOULD GET ISRAEL TO STOP ITS WAR IN GAZA AND ACCEPT A CEASE-FIRE.

THAT SUGGESTS A POTENTIAL -- POTENTIAL, I SAY, OFF-RAMP HERE FOR IRAN TO SOMEHOW CLAIM ITSELF AS RESPONSIBLE FOR ENGINEERING A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, AND PERHAPS THEN BACKING OFF OF ITS VOWS TO RETALIATE AGAINST ISRAEL.

BUT THAT'S FAR FROM BEING A SURE THING.

THAT'S PURELY SPECULATIVE AT THIS POINT.

WHAT WE'VE ALSO SEEN, THOUGH, IS THAT EGYPT HAS NOW INSTRUCTED ITS AIRLINES TO AVOID FLYING OVER THE IRANIAN CAPITAL FOR SEVERAL HOURS TOMORROW MORNING.

THAT'S FAIRLY UNUSUAL, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS BEHIND THAT.

BUT AGAIN, IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF TENSION IN THE AIR, A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY, AND A FEW DIFFERENT PATHS THAT THIS REGION COULD TAKE GOING FORWARD.

>> AND IT'S CLEAR ISRAEL ISN'T LETTING ITS JAR DOWN, EITHER, ALSO PREPARED FOR ANY SORT OF RESPONSE IN THE HOURS AND DAYS TO COME.

JEREMY DIAMOND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING US UP TO DATE.

>>> WELL, NOW IN THE FACE OF A LOOMING IRANIAN ATTACK AGAINST ISRAEL, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS SCRAMBLING TO AVERT AN ESCALATION OF VIOLENCE, CARRYING OUT A DIPLOMATIC PRESS ON ITS ALLIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND CONVENING TOP WHITE HOUSE ADVISERS.

AMONG THEM, JAKE SULLIVAN, WHO JUST DAYS AGO HELPED SECURE THE RELEASE OF THREE AMERICANS HELD IN RUSSIA.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO REFLECT ON THE LONG ROAD THAT LED TO THE HISTORIC PRISONER SWAP.

HIS CONCERNS FOR THE FUTURE OF A CEASE-FIRE DEAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

AND WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION HOPES TO ACCOMPLISH DURING ITS FINAL MONTHS IN OFFICE.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND JAKE SULLIVAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> ABOUT -- IN EARLY MAY, PRESIDENT BIDEN PUT OUT A CEASE-FIRE PLAN FOR GAZA AND THE MIDDLE EAST, AND WE THOUGHT WE WERE THERE, WE THOUGHT, WE WERE WITHIN A DAY OR TWO OF IT.

THEN ISRAEL ASSASSINATED THE TOP POLITICAL LEADER OF HAMAS WHEN HE WAS VISITING TEHRAN, AND JUST YESTERDAY, HAMAS PUT IN THE MASTERMIND OF THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK AS ITS NEW TOP POLITICAL LEADER.

WHERE DO WE STAND ON A CEASE-FIRE, IS IT STILL POSSIBLE TO GET ONE IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS OR WEEKS?

>> WELL, IT'S STILL POSSIBLE.

THE ELEMENTS ARE THERE, THE FRAMEWORK IS THERE.

IT'S BEEN PROPOSED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN, ENDORSED BY THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, ACCEPTED IN BROAD TERMS BY BOTH ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

AND SO, THEY REALLY NEED TO DRIVE THROUGH THE DETAILS TO GET TO A CONCLUSION.

NOW, GEORGE MITCHELL, THE SPECIAL ENVOY WHO NEGOTIATED PEACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND ONCE SAID ABOUT THESE NEGOTIATIONS THAT THERE ARE 1,000 DAYS OF FAILURE AND ONE DAY OF SUCCESS.

AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY TRUE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WHERE YOU SEE INTERVENING EVENTS LIKE WHAT'S UNFOLDED OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

BUT THE PRESIDENT'S DETERMINED TO GET THIS DONE, AND HE IS DETERMINED TO HOLD BOTH SIDES FEET TO THE FIRE TO GET TO A CONCLUSION WHERE WE HAVE A CEASE-FIRE AND A HOSTAGE DEAL, PAVING THE WAY FOR THE END OF THE WAR IN GAZA.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DRIVING AT.

JUST YESTERDAY, HE SPOKE WITH BOTH THE PRESIDENT OF EGYPT AND THE AMIR OF QATAR, THE OTHER TWO MEDIATORS ON THIS CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL, TO TRY TO SET UP AN END GAME WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY DELIVER THIS.

>> YOU HAD A NATIONAL SECURITY MEETING OVER THE WEEKEND IN WHICH YOU'RE TRYING TO PREPARE FOR THE POSSIBILITY AND IRAN'S PROXIES WILL DO A RETALIATORY ATTACK WHAT ARE WE DOING TO STOP THAT?

AND CAN THIS THING BE TAMPED DOWN?

>> WELL, AS YOU NOTE, THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN HUDDLING WITH HIS TOP NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM ON A DAILY BASIS, INCLUDING MEETINGS IN THE SITUATION ROOM.

AND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO AS THE UNITED STATES IS TO KEEP THE SITUATION FROM SPINNING OUT INTO AN ALL-OUT REGIONAL WAR.

AND THAT MEANS, FIRST, MOVING MILITARY ASSETS ON A DEFENSIVE BASIS INTO THE REGION TO BE ABLE TO HELP DEFEND ISRAEL AGAINST ANY ATTACK THAT COMES FROM IRAN OR ITS PROXIES.

SECOND, SENDING A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT ANY TYPE OF ESCALATION ON THE PART OF IRAN AND ITS PROXIES RISKS A COUNTERESCALATION AND A SLIDE INTO WAR.

AND THIRD, TRYING TO PUSH FOR DE-ESCALATION, TRYING TO PUSH TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE IN THE REGION, PARTICULARLY BY GETTING THIS CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE, WHICH, IF WE GOT THE CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, COULD LEAD TO A CEASE-FIRE IN LEBANON, AND ULTIMATELY, COULD LEAD TO A LARGER DIPLOMATIC EFFORT TO PRODUCE GREATER STABILITY ACROSS THE REGION.

>> I JUST HEARD YOU SAY THAT WE'RE MOVING THE MILITARY ASSETS THERE TO DEFEND ISRAEL IN CASE THERE'S AN ATTACK FROM IRAN.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS, TO WHAT EXTENT, IF THERE'S AN ATTACK FROM IRAN ON ISRAEL, DOES THE UNITED STATES DIRECTLY DEFEND ISRAEL AND GET INVOLVED IN THE WAR?

>> WELL, HISTORICALLY, WE REALLY HAVEN'T DONE THAT, BECAUSE THAT HASN'T BEEN NECESSARY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, HOWEVER, HAS TAKEN UNPRECEDENTED STEPS TO PUT THE U.S. MILITARY IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO DIRECTLY DEFEND ISRAEL.

WE DID THIS IN APRIL.

WHEN IRAN LAUNCHED MORE THAN 100 BALLISTIC MISSILES AND HUNDREDS OF DRONES AND CRUISE MISSILES AT ISRAEL, ALL IN ONE DAY, THE U.S. HAD SHIPS THAT ARE MOUNTED WITH INTERCEPTORS, WITH THE ABILITY TO SHOOT DOWN BALLISTIC MISSILES COMING TOWARDS ISRAEL.

THE U.S. HAD PLANES IN THE AIR SHOOTING DOWN DRONES AND CRUISE MISSILES.

AND WE WORKED WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, BOTH COUNTRIES IN THE REGION AND COUNTRIES IN EUROPE, IN A SMALL COALITION, THAT IN AN UNPRECEDENTED WAY DEFENDED ISRAEL.

WE ARE IN POSITION AND PREPARED TO DO THAT AGAIN, SHOULD THERE BE AN ATTACK ON ISRAEL, AND WE'RE SENDING A CLEAR MESSAGE TO ISRAEL'S ENEMIES THAT WE'RE DETERMINED TO DEFEAT THEIR ATTACK.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT ISRAEL HAD THE RIGHT OR JUSTIFICATION TO KILL A POLITICAL LEADER OF HAMAS IN IRAN?

>> WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK TO ANY SPECIFIC OPERATION.

ISRAEL HAS NOT SPOKEN TO ANY OPERATION IN IRAN, EITHER.

WHAT I CAN SAY IN GENERAL IS THAT ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED ON OCTOBER 7th BY HAMAS IN THE WORST MASSACRE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, AND I DO BELIEVE ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO GO AFTER THE AUTHORS OF THAT MASSACRE, AND TO DO SO IN A WAY THAT TRIES TO PROTECT AND SECURE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AGAINST FUTURE ATTACKS.

BECAUSE, AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, THE LEADERS OF HAMAS HAVE CONTINUED TO SAY, THEY WANT TO DO OCTOBER 7th AGAIN.

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

NOW, OUR GOAL, THOUGH, IS NOT FOR AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE IN THE REGION.

IT'S NOT FOR ESCALATION.

IT IS FOR WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS LAID OUT AND IS CONTINUING TO WORK EVERY DAY TOWARDS WHICH IS GET A CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE, GET THE HOSTAGES HOME, GET AN END TO THE WAR.

REBUILD GAZA.

AND ULTIMATELY TRY TO GENERATE A POLITICAL HORIZON FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

>> HAS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU CHANGED SINCE OCTOBER 7th?

AND HOW IS THAT EVOLUTION GOING?

HAS BIDEN HAD TO BE MUCH TOUGHER ON HIM AND, YOU KNOW, CAN THEY KEEP THAT RELATIONSHIP TOGETHER?

>> LOOK, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR DECADES.

THROUGH UPS AND DOWNS, THROUGH CRISES, DIFFICULTIES, DISAGREEMENTS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, AS YOU KNOW, HAS A DEEP CONVICTION ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SUPPORTING THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

HE CALLS HIMSELF AN IRISH CATHOLIC ZIONIST AND BELIEVES THAT ISRAEL IS THE HOME OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE AS SOMETHING THAT MUST BE PROTECTED AND HE'LL WORK WITH ANYONE WHO IS SITTING IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S CHAIR.

HE'S WORKED WITH EVERY PRIME MINISTER, ALL THE WAY BACK TO GOAL DA MY YEAR.

AND SO, HE HAS ENGAGED WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

HE HAS SUPPORTED HIM IN ISRAEL'S DARKEST HOUR.

AND HE HAS CHALLENGED HIM ON CERTAIN ISSUES, BEHIND CLOSED DEERS, WHERE ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES DO NOT SEE EYE TO EYE.

THAT'S BEEN TRUE IN THE LAST TEN MONTHS, IT'S BEEN TRUE FOR THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES.

SO, NO, I DON'T SEE A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

I RATHER SEE THE FACT OF THIS LONG-STANDING RELATIONSHIP, YOU KNOW, PLAY INTO PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ABILITY TO BE TOTALLY STRAIGHT WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WHEN HE NEEDS TO BE, AND, YOU KNOW, I GET TO BEAR WITNESS TO THAT IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND WHEN THEY'RE ITE EITHER IN ISRAEL OR THE UNITED STATES.

>> GIVEN THE SUFFERING IN GAZA, NOW THE POTENTIAL FOOD INSECURITY, PERHAPS STARVATION THERE, JUST -- IN TERMS OF HUMANITARIAN DEALINGS, WHY ISN'T THE UNITED STATES ABLE TO DO MORE TO GET ISRAEL ABOARD AND DO MORE ON ITS OWN, JUST TO FLOOD THE ZONE WITH HUMANITARIAN RELIEF, EVEN AS THIS WAR IS BEING PROSECUTED?

>> WELL, WALTER, I'VE SAID BEFORE THAT OVER THE COURSE OF THIS WAR, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH HELL.

YOU KNOW, SUFFERING UNDER BOMBARDMENT, SUFFERING UNDER DEPRAVATION OF VARIOUS KINDS THAT COME WITH BEING IN WAR, AND THE SUFFERING IS IMMENSE, AND IT IS EXTREMELY PAINFUL.

AND WE HAVE BEEN WORKING OVERTIME TO GET MORE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, TO FLOOD THE ZONE, EXACTLY AS YOU SAY, AND ACTUALLY, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS MADE HUGE STRIDES IN THIS REGARD.

AFTER OCTOBER 7th, NO GATES WERE OPEN TO MOVE TRUCKS THROUGH TO GET FOOD IN.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GOTTEN THE ISRAELIS TO OPEN MULTIPLE CROSSINGS.

HE'S GOTTEN THE ISRAELIS TO ACCEPT THE NEED FOR PAUSES, HUMANITARIAN PAUSES SO FOOD CAN MOVE AROUND.

HE'S GOTTEN THE ISRAELIS TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES FOR ACCEPTING FOOD INTO THE PORT OF ISRAEL SO THAT IT CAN GET DOWN TO GAZA.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF AID THAT IS GETTING IN NOW, COMPARED TO WHAT WAS GETTING IN SOME MONTHS AGO, IT HAS GONE UP CONSIDERABLY.

IS IT ENOUGH?

IT'S NEVER ENOUGH.

DO ALL THE TYPES OF AID THAT NEED TO GET IN, MEDICAL, HUMANITARIAN AND SO FORTH, GET IN?

THEY DON'T.

EVERY DAY, WE'RE WORKING THIS PROBLEM.

EVERY DAY, I'M WORKING THIS PROBLEM.

BUT WE DO FEEL WE'VE MADE CONSIDERABLE PROGRESS.

WE ARE -- WE HAVE STARED INTO THE FACE OF FAMINE IN NORTHERN GAZA AND TRIED TO SURGE ENOUGH FOOD IN TO AVERT THAT FAMINE.

WE ARE STILL TRYING EVERY DAY TO AVERT FAMINE IN OTHER PARTS OF GAZA, AS WELL.

AND WE'LL KEEP DOING THAT, BUT WE DO BELIEVE THAT TANGIBLE PROGRESS IS A DIRECT RESULT OF PRESIDENTIAL INTERVENTION, HAS BEEN DEMONSTRABLY SHOWN.

WE'RE NOT SATISFIED WITH THAT.

WE NEED TO SEE MORE.

BUT I THINK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN ACTUALLY DOES HAVE QUITE A BIT TO SHOW FOR HIS ENGAGEMENT WITH THE PRIME MINISTER.

>> YOU WERE IN THE THICK OF THIS HUGE PRISONER EXCHANGE THAT HAPPENED BETWEEN RUSSIA, THE UNITED STATES, AND THE WESTERN WORLD.

CALLED THE BIGGEST PRISONER EXCHANGE SINCE THE COLD WAR.

BUT I LOOK BACK AT THE COLD WAR, I DON'T THINK WE HAD ONE EVEN AS BIG DURING THE COLD WAR.

PROBABLY SINCE WORLD WAR II, IT'S THE BIGGEST.

TELL ME ABOUT, YOU HAD PAUL WHELAN OUT, YOU GOT EVAN GERSHKOVICH OUT.

IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED WAS, IT WAS STUCK IN PLACE, AND THERE'S AN OLD DWIGHT EISENHOWER LINE, ABOUT WHEN A PROBLEM IS UNSOLVABLE, MAKE IT BIGGER AND LARGER, TRY TO DO BIGGER.

HOWEVER DID YOU END UP DOING THAT, WHICH IS ENLARGE THE PROBLEM, THUS SOLVE IT?

>> WELL, IT ACTUALLY BEGAN BEFORE EVAN GERSHKOVICH WAS EVEN TAKEN PRISONER IN RUSSIA.

IT STARTED WHEN WE WERE TRYING TO GET PAUL WHELAN OUT.

AND THE RUSSIANS WERE FALSELY ACCUSING PAUL OF BEING A SPY.

AND THEY WERE SAYING, WE WILL ONLY EXCHANGE PAUL WHELAN FOR A SPY, FOR AN INTELLIGENCE ASSET, AND IN PARTICULAR, THEY FOCUSED ON THIS FELLOW IN GERMANY, AN FSB AGENT WHO HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF MURDER.

NOW, WE, THE UNITED STATES, DID NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO TRADE HIM TO RUSSIA FOR PAUL WHELAN, OR ANYONE ELSE.

HE WAS IN GERMAN CUSTODY.

THEN, WHEN EVAN GERSHKOVICH WAS TAKEN, IT BECAME CLEAR TO US THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GET PAUL AND EVAN OUT WOULD BE TO PUT KRAZIKOV IN PLAY.

BUT TO GET THE GERMANS TO TAKE THE BOLD STEP OF PUTTING KRAZIKOV ON THE TABLE, THERE NEEDED TO BE SOMETHING FOR THE GERMANS TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEIR OWN PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE DELIVERING, CONSISTENT WITH GERMAN INTERESTS AND GERMAN VALUES, AND THAT'S WHERE THE IDEA OF ADDING POLITICAL PRISONERS FROM RUSSIA TO THE MIX CAME INTO FOCUS, AND WE BEGAN WORKING ON THAT, MANY MONTHS AGO, TO BASICALLY CREATE A TRADE THAT INVOLVED AMERICANS, RUSSIAN POLITICAL PRISONERS, AND GERMANS HELD HOSTAGE IN RUSSIA, AND WHEN WE PUT IT ALL TOGETHER, WE ALSO THEN HAD TO ADD OTHER COUNTRIES, AS WELL, TO CREATE A FULL PACKAGE THAT COULD RESULT IN THE RELEASE OF THE AMERICAN PRISONERS AND THE RUSSIAN PRISONERS LAST WEEK.

>> THE FINAL STEPS OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS OCCURRED WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS RECOVERING FROM COVID, AND HE WAS TRYING TO WEIGH HIS OPTIONS IN THE 2024 RACE.

AND AT THE VERY END, ACCORDING TO "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," HE ENDED UP HAVING TO CALL THE LEADER OF SLOVENIA AND IT WAS JUST AN HOUR BEFORE HE ENDS UP WITHDRAWING FROM THE RACE.

THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE TABLEAU.

TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THOSE NEGOTIATIONS AND THE MAN YOU WORK WITH FOR SO LONG, PRESIDENT BIDEN.

>> WELL, WHAT WAS KIND OF REMARKABLE ABOUT THIS DEAL IS THE NUMBER OF PIECES THAT HAD TO FALL INTO PLACE.

NORWAY, POLAND, GERMANY, TURKEY, AND ULTIMATELY SLOVENIA.

SLOVENIA WAS OFFERING UP TWO RUSSIAN SPIES TO BE RETURNED TO RUSSIA AS PART OF THE OVERALL DEAL.

IT WAS THE FINAL PIECE OF THE PUZZLE THAT WE WERE TRYING TO PUT INTO PLACE.

GET AGREEMENT FROM SLOVENIA, NOT JUST TO OFFER THEM UP, BUT TO DO IT BY AUGUST 1st SO THIS COULD ALL HAPPEN ON A SINGLE DAY.

SO, ON THE WEEKEND OF JULY 20th AND 21st, I WAS IN ASPEN, I THINK YOU WERE THERE, AS WELL.

AND I WAS IN MY HOTEL ROOM WHEN I RECEIVED A CALL FROM OUR TEAM SAYING, YOU NEED TO CALL YOUR COUNTERPART, THE SLOVENIAN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER AND YOU NEED TO ASK HIM IF THEY CAN ACCELERATE THEIR PLAN TO RESOLVE THE CASES OF THESE TWO RUSSIAN SPIES SO THAT THEY CAN BE SENT TO TURKEY ON AUGUST 1st.

I MADE THAT CALL, WE HAD A GOOD, CONSTRUCTIVE CONVERSATION.

THEN, MY COUNTERPART SAID, YOU KNOW, THIS ULTIMATELY LIES WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, THE ONLY WAY WE CAN ACTUALLY GET THIS DONE IS IF THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRIME MINISTER HAVE A CONVERSATION TO LOCK IT IN.

SO, THE NEXT DAY, SUNDAY, JULY 21st, PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE WITH HIS SLOVENIAN COUNTERPART ABOUT NOON.

AND THEY AGREED, THEY SEALED THE DEAL, WE SAW THAT WE HAD THE PIECES IN PLACE, AND THREE HOURS LATER, PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD HE WASN'T RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

THIS WAS ACTUALLY HIS LAST OFFICIAL ACT BEFORE HE WENT OUT TO THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD TO DECLARE THAT HE WAS GOING TO RUN THROUGH THE TAPE OF THIS TERM, BUT NOT SEEK A SECOND TERM.

>> YOU WERE TRYING TO GET ALEEI NAVALNY OUT FOR A LONG TIME.

DO YOU REGRET OR FEEL THAT THE FACT THAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS TOOK SO LONG MEANT THAT WE WERE NOT ABLE TO GET NAVALNY OUT?

>> LOOK, WE'LL NEVER KNOW, AND I THINK ABOUT THAT QUESTION A LOT.

I THINK ABOUT THE OPPOSITE, TOO.

DOES THE FACT THAT HE WAS IN PLAY, IN ANY WAY, DID THAT FACT HAVE AN IMPACT ON HIS DEATH?

WE DON'T KNOW ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, FRANKLY.

SO, BECAUSE OF THE OPACITY AND THE DARKNESS OF THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM AND THE BRUTALITY OF THAT SYSTEM.

ALL WE COULD DO THROUGH THIS PERIOD WAS DRIVE AS AGGRESSIVELY AND RELENTLESSLY AS WE COULD TO GET TO AN END GAME.

AND THE FACT THAT WE ULTIMATELY GOT TO ONE, EVEN AFTER THE TRAGIC DEATH OF NAVALNY, EVEN AFTER MANY FALSE STARTS, EVEN AFTER MANY MONTHS, IS QUITE REMARKABLE.

THIS DEAL SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

IT SHOULD NOT HAVE COME TOGETHER.

AND YET, SOMEHOW, IT DID.

AND I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT IS VERY PROUD OF THAT.

AND WE'RE GRATEFUL TO HAVE THE AMERICANS HOME AND SO MANY RUSSIAN FREEDOM FIGHTERS FREE TO CONTINUE THEIR FIGHT.

>> IT WAS KIND OF PERSONAL, TOO, I NOTICED THAT YOU TEARED UP.

>> YEAH, I TRIED TO RETRACT THAT AT THE PODIUM AFTER I DID SO, BUT I DID, AND IT'S BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I INVESTED NOT JUST IN THE STRATEGY AND THE STATECRAFT OF TRYING TO GET THIS DONE, BUT I INVESTED WITH THE FAMILIES.

I MET WITH THEM REPEATEDLY OVER THE COURSE OF MONTHS, THE FAMILIES OF PAUL WHELAN AND EVAN GERSHKOVICH, AND, IN FACT,Y NAVALNY DIED, EVAN GERSHKOVICH'S PARENTS WERE IN MY OFFICE.

AND THEY SAID, DOES THIS MEAN THAT EVAN IS NOT COMING HOME?

AND I TOLD THEM THAT I WAS DETERMINED THAT HE WOULD COME HOME, THAT WE WOULD FIND A WAY, AND I SAID IT WITH GREAT CONFIDENCE AND CONVICTION, BUT IN THE BACK OF MY MIND, I DIDN'T KNOW FOR SURE.

AND SO, IT WAS MOMENTS LIKE THAT, OVER THE COURSE OF THIS EFFORT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T HELP -- THERE'S A HUGE INTELLECTUAL COMPONENT TO THIS, BUT THERE'S AN EMOTIONAL COMPONENT, TOO, BECAUSE THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, AND THIS IS A HUMAN ENDEAVOR.

AND SO, ON THE DAY THEY WERE FINALLY RELEASED, I WAS A BIT EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT, ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES, ON BEHALF OF THE PRESIDENT, WHO I FEEL REALLY DELIVERED THIS, AND ON BEHALF OF HAVING SO MANY ALLIES WHO WERE WILLING TO STEP UP FOR US, FOR THE UNITED STATES, ALL THAT CONVERGED IN THAT MOMENT AT THE PODIUM.

>> DURING THE WEEKEND SITUATION ROOM MEETINGS ON THE MIDDLE EAST, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WAS THERE.

I KNOW YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT WHAT SHE WAS DOING PRECISELY IN THOSE MEETINGS, BUT JUST IN GENERAL, NOW THAT SHE'S THE NOMINEE OF THE PARTY, TELL ME -- GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT SHE HAS DONE IN FOREIGN POLICY AND SITUATION ROOM, SOME STORY ABOUT HOW SHE'S FOCUSED THINGS.

>> WELL, I'VE GOT TO SIT IN THE SITUATION ROOM WITH VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS SINCE DAY ONE OF THE BIDEN/HARRIS ADMINISTRATION.

I'VE SEEN HER IN CRISES, INCLUDING WHEN ISRAEL'S BEEN UNDER ATTACK, WHEN U.S. SERVICE MEMBERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE BEEN UNDER ATTACK, WHEN RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE.

I'VE SEEN HER COUNCIL THE PRESIDENT, I'VE SEEN HER ASK INCREDIBLY PENETRATING QUESTIONS OF OUR MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND I'VE SEEN HER PROPOSE STRATEGIC ELEMENTS OF THE INDO-PACIFIC.

SHE'S TRAVELED TO THE REGION REPEATEDLY.

SHE'S BUILT RELATIONSHIPS WITH THOSE LEADERS.

AND EVEN IN THE CASE OF THE HOSTAGE NEGOTIATIONS, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAD A CRITICAL MEETING WITH CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ IN MUNICH, GERMANY, TO HELP MOVE THE BALL FORWARD.

SO, MUCH LIKE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS A CENTRAL NATIONAL SECURITY PLAYER FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAS BEEN A CENTRAL PLAYER FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND IS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO NOW, AFTER FOUR YEARS, HAS THE EXPERIENCE, THE DEPTH OF KNOWLEDGE, THE ENGAGEMENT, AND, FRANKLY, JUST THE GOOD JUDGMENT TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THESE HARD ISSUES EXTREMELY WELL.

>> JAKE SULLIVAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW TO A STORY THAT'S BEEN OFF THE RADAR FOR TOO MANY AND FOR TOO LONG.

THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN SUDAN IS GOING FROM BAD TO WORSE.

AND THERE ARE REPORTS OF FAMINE AND BOMBING IN THE ZAMZAM DISPLACEMENT CAMP IN NORTH DAR FUHR.

WHILE AID GROUPS ACCUSE ONE OF THE WARRING ACTIONS OF WITHHOLDING AID.

IT'S JUST THE LATEST TRAGEDY, AS TWO RIVAL GENERALS BATTLE FOR CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY, LEAVING 26 MILLION PEOPLE AT CRISIS LEVELS OF HUNGER.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT SAYS THAT IT'S SEEKING ARREST WARRANTS FOR THOSE PERPETRATING CRIMES IN SUDAN, BUT WHAT IS NEEDED NOW THE MOST?

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS WILL CARTER, THE COUNTRY DIRECTOR THERE FOR THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL.

WILL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE BACK THERE IN SUDAN NOW, AS WE NOTED, THE WORLD'S LARGEST DISPLACEMENT CRISIS UNFOLDING BEFORE OUR VERY EYES.

7 MILLION ARE BELIEVED TO BE INTERNALLY DISPLACED, MORE THAN 2 MILLION HAVE FLED TO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES.

NOW THE REAL CONCERN IS ABOUT STARVATION, MORE THAN 16,000 HAVE REPORTEDLY BEEN KILLED.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

I MEAN, IT'S A BRUTAL SITUATION.

I WAS JUST IN THE EAST OF THE COUNTRY, NOT FAR FROM THE FRONT LINES, WITH OUR TEAMS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE RESPONDING, AND AS YOU SAY, THERE'S A FAMINE IN SUDAN, AND THIS WAR THAT'S RAVAGING CITY AFTER CITY, EITHER BE SIEGED OR ASSAULTED OR CAPTURED NOW.

AND FROM EACH OF THOSE CITIES, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE FLEEING.

AND WHEN I WAS THERE, JUST A FEW DAYS AGO WITH OUR TEAMS, YOU KNOW, I SAW PEOPLE STREAMING OUT, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD TO LEAVE CITIES UNDER GUN FIRE.

SOME OF THIS WASN'T EVEN THE FIRST TIME THEY HAD TO BE COMPLETELY UPROOTED.

SOME DIDN'T EVEN HAVE SHOES.

ELDERLY PEOPLE, PREGNANT WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN WALKING FOR DAYS THROUGH THE MUD TO SEEK SAFETY.

WE'RE TRYING TO RESPOND IN AREAS WHERE IT'S VERY OVERCROWDED AT THIS POINT, IT'S VERY SCARCE RESOURCES TO RESPOND, SO, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO SCALE UP AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN THEN, WE COULD SEE THE MAKINGS OF THIS FAMINE.

I MET A WAR WIDOW, AND SHE WAS TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF HER CHILDREN, SHE HAD TO SELL EVERYTHING IN HER HOUSE, AND WAS DOWN TO THE LAST WINDOW PANE, WHICH SHE WAS ABOUT TO SELL OFF, JUST TO BUY A FEW MORE BITS OF BREAD.

AND EVEN JUST NOW, SPEAKING TO OUR TEAMS, THEY'RE SAYING COMMUNITIES HAVE A CHILD DYING EVERY DAY.

>> DYING EVERY SINGLE DAY.

AND YOU'RE ON THE GROUND THERE, I DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT YOU'RE HELPLESS, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT YOUR FOUNDATION IN THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL IS TRYING TO HELP.

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU ABLE TO PROVIDE?

>> WE PROVIDE DIFFERENT TYPES OF ASSISTANCE.

US AND WITH PARTNERS, WE'RE PROVIING CASH FOR PEOPLE TO BUY FOOD, MEDICINES, YOU KNOW, CLOTHES, IF THEY NEED IT.

WE'RE TRYING TO GET CHILDREN INTO A SAFE -- SAFE SPACE SO THEY CAN GET A SENSE OF NORMALCY, SHELTER, MATERIALS, WATER.

IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT THERE'S REALLY LIMITED AID, AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY, WE NEED TO SCALE UP THIS COUNTRY OF ALMOST 50 MILLION PEOPLE IS DESPERATELY IN NEED.

>> YEAH, YOU MENTIONED ON TWITTER THAT YOU'VE HAD TO RESORT TO ACTUALLY GROVELING FOR FINANCES TO PROVIDE EVEN TEMPORARY AID.

WHERE ARE YOUR RESOURCES COMING FROM?

>> I MEAN, WE'RE VERY GRATEFUL TO THE U.S., WHO HAS PLAYED A LARGE PART, BUT WE'RE STILL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TWO-THIRDS THROUGH THIS YEAR, WE'RE BARELY A THIRD FUNDED, AS THE OVERALL HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE.

AND WHAT'S SUCH A SERIOUS SITUATION.

EUROPE HAS STEPPED UP A BIT, BUT NOT ENOUGH.

WE REALLY WANT TO SEE OTHER WORLD POWERS, REGIONAL POWERS HELP PEOPLE IN SUDAN AND HELP THE HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE HERE.

>> SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN WAS ASKED ABOUT THE CRISIS THERE RECENTLY AT A CONFERENCE IN ASPEN, COLORADO, IN THE UNITED STATES.

HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> AND THERE ARE SOME PLACES THAT ARE NOT GETTING THE ATTENTION THAT THEY PROBABLY DESERVE, BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH THAT PEOPLE CAN DIGEST.

SUDAN RIGHT NOW IS PROBABLY THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN THE WORLD.

>> TO HEAR THE SECRETARY OF STATE SAY QUITE HONESTLY, RIGHT, THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH PEOPLE CAN DIGEST, HOW DO YOU RELAY THAT TO THOSE WHO YOU ARE INTERACTING WITH ON THE GROUND THERE, WHEN THEY'RE ASKING, WHERE IS THE HELP, WHAT CAN BE DONE?

HOW DO I KEEP MY CHILD ALIVE?

WHERE IS MY NEXT MEAL GOING TO COME FROM?

HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY IN 2024 RESPOND TO THEM WITH SAYING, THERE'S JUST ONLY SO MUCH PEOPLE CAN DIGEST?

>> BIANNA, WE CAN'T.

I MEAN, IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S HEARTBREAKING AS IT IS.

THE -- WE REALLY REJECT THE IDEA THAT THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH POLITICAL BANDWIDTH.

WE REALLY WANT THE WORLD TO SEE.

WE'RE SEEING ONLY A FRACTION OF THE ATTENTION THAT GOES TO UKRAINE OR AS I JUST HEARD, TO GAZA.

THIS IS REALLY UNDERPLAYED CRISIS.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE WORLD DOESN'T HAVE IT IN IT TO BE MORE EMPATHETIC AND TO AT LEAST IF NOT FINANCIALLY PROVIDE POLITICAL ATTENTION FROM ALL PARTS.

BUT YEAH, WE REJECT THE IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH ATTENTION THAT YOU CAN GIVE, BECAUSE THAT'S HAPPENING HERE WILL SCAR, YOU KNOW, GLOBAL CONSCIENCE AND IT NEEDS TO COME.

>> YEAH, AND WE SHOULD NOTE, THE UNITED STATES IS PLANNING TO BRING THE SIDES TOGETHER IN SWITZERLAND LATER THIS MONTH, THEY'RE COHOSTING EVENTS BOTH IN SWITZERLAND AND SAUDI ARABIA.

AS WE NOTED, THE ICC IS PLANNING TO ISSUE ARREST WARRANTS, BECAUSE THERE ARE WAR CRIMES THAT ARE ALLEGEDLY BEING COMMITTED HERE.

SEXUAL VIOLENCE REPORTS, NAMELY, WE SHOULD SAY, THE USE OF RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR IS SOMETHING SADLY THAT'S NOT NEW.

THERE ARE GANG RAPES REPORTED, FORCED MARRIAGES.

TALK ABOUT THE WAR WIDOWS, AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE INTERACTED WITH THAT HAVE SEEN THIS UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

>> I MEAN, WE'RE MOSTLY HELPING PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING TO LEAVE FROM AREAS, NEIGHBORHOODS AFFECTED BY WAR, AND ALL THE BRUTALITY THAT HAPPENS THERE, EVEN ME, PEOPLE HAVE DISCLOSED THAT THEY HAVE FACED SEXUAL VIOLENCE, I'VE MET WAR WIDOWS WHO ARE PREGNANT BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

IT'S A REALLY DESPERATE SITUATION.

WE'RE NOT SPECIALISTS IN THIS, WE'RE NOT A HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION, WHICH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, ARE INVESTIGATING, SHOULD BE DOCUMENTING, AND I HOPE HAVE THE RIGHT LEVEL OF DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT TO END CONFLICT-RELATED SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND BRING THIS TO JUSTICE.

SO, I THINK THIS IS CLEAR THE WAR IS TAKING AN AFFECT ON MILLIONS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN.

>> ARE YOU AND OTHER AID WORKERS DIRECTLY INTERACTING WITH THE MILITANTS OR THE RSF THERE?

>> WE HAVE TO NEGOTIATE WITH ALL SIDES IN THIS CONFLICT FOR HUMANITARIAN ACCESS, AND TO TRY TO KEEP CIVILIANS SAFER.

SO, THERE ARE MANY SIDES IN THIS CONFLICT.

>> IS THAT GETTING THROUGH AT ALL?

ARE YOU ABLE TO GET THE AID THROUGH THROUGH THESE NEGOTIATIONS?

>> SOME, YES.

IT'S DIFFICULT, AND IT'S SLOW IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

ALL SIDES TO AN EXTENT ARE OBSTRUCTING THE ACCESS.

IN DIFFERING WAYS.

REALLY, WE'VE HAD SOME SUCCESSES, WE'RE STILL ABLE TO WORK IN MANY PARTS OF THIS COUNTRY.

THERE'S NOT FUNDING AND THERE'S NOT ALL THE SPACE AND THINGS AREN'T AS QUICK AS WE WOULD LIKE, BUT DEFINITELY THINGS GETTING BLOCKED, AS WELL.

>> YEAH, WE SHOULD NOTE THE U.N. TRUCKS FILLED WITH FOOD AND MEDICINE THAT'S URGENTLY NEEDED, THERE ARE REPORTS OF THEM BEING BLOCKED IN DARFUR.

LASTLY, JUST THE WIDER IMPLICATIONS FOR THE REGION, BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, SUDAN USED TO BE KNOWN AS A REGIONAL BREAD BASKET, THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT THIS POINT.

WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS REGIONALLY NOW?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SUDAN IS A CATASTROPHE WHICH COULD DESTABILIZE THE REGION.

CLEARLY WE'VE SEEN MILLIONS OF REFUGEES HAVING TO COME TO VERY POOR PARTS OF NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, WHO ARE ALSO STRUGGLING WITH THEIR OWN HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

WE'RE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE SPILLOVER OF VIOLENCE IN SOME OF THE DIFFERENT GROUPS.

AND FIGHTING TO HAPPEN.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF THERE ISN'T A SOLUTION FOR SUDAN, IF THERE ISN'T AID, WHICH CAN HELP STABILIZE WHAT'S NEEDED, THIS WILL DESTABILIZE THE REGION AND WORSE.

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, WILL CARTER, FOR DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE PEOPLE THERE, THAT ARE SUFFERING IMMENSELY, ARE NOT FORGOTTEN.

WE WILL CHECK IN WITH YOU AGAIN VERY SOON.

THANK YOU.

>> THANKS.

>>> AND FINALLY, AS MASS DISPLACEMENT TRIGGERS A RISE IN THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES GLOBALLY, IT'S HARD TO FIND HOPE.

BUT ANY NEXT GUEST IS A TESTAMENT TO THE RESILIENCE OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

YUSRA MARDINI FLED SYRIA.

THE BOAT SHE AND OTHER REFUGEES WERE ON STOPPED AND BEGAN TO SINK.

YUSRA, HER SISTER, AND TWO OTHERS JUMPED OUT AND SWAM, PUSHING THE BOAT TO SAFETY OVER SEVERAL HOURS.

WELL, IN 2016, SHE WAS PART OF THE REFUGEE TEAM AT RIO, AND COMPETED IN TOKYO 2020.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY THAT REACHED THE BIG SCREEN IN THE FILM "THE SWIMMERS."

NOW, SHE'S BACK, REPORTING ON THE GAMES FOR EURO SPORT.

YUSRA MARDINI JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S SO GREAT TO SEE YOU THERE IN PARIS AS A REPORTER, ANALYZING THESE GAMES.

AND LOOK HOW FAR THINGS HAVE COME, AS WE NOTED, THE INAUGURAL REFEREE REFUGEE TEAM IN 2016.

THREE DIFFERENT SPORTS, INCLUDING YOURSELF.

NOW, THERE ARE 37 ATHLETES, 12 DIFFERENT SPORTS.

TALK ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR YOU.

>> AH, THIS IS REALLY INCREDIBLE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

I THINK THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM IS A TEAM THAT REPRESENTS HOPE.

IT REPRESENTS MILLIONS OF REFUGEES AROUND THE WORLD.

THE NUMBERS, UNFORTUNATELY, ARE RISING.

IT WENT, IN 2016, IT WAS 65 MILLION DISPLACED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND NOW TODAY, IT'S 120 MILLION DISPLACED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

40% OF THEM ARE CHILDREN.

SO, IT IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS TEAM IS SO IMPORTANT TO SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND TO CHEER THEM ON AS OUR SECOND HOME CROWD.

I MEAN, WATCHING THEM COMPETE IS JUST REALLY PURE JOY FOR ME, BECAUSE I KNOW, AND I SHARED A LOT OF THEIR STORIES ON EURO SPORT, AND IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE TO SEE HOW RESILIENT THEY ARE.

>> YEAH, I REMEMBER WATCHING THEM AS WE SEE ON THE BOAT, AND THE OPENING NIGHT CEREMONIES, AND JUST THE ENTHUSIASM AND THE WARM EMBRACE THEY GOT, IT SENDS CHILLS, REALLY, BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHAT SO MANY OF THESE ATHLETES HAVE BEEN THROUGH, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, AS YOU MENTIONED, HOW MANY THEY REPRESENT AROUND THE WORLD.

AND SADLY, THAT NUMBER IS ONLY RISING.

TALK TO US ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF TRAINING.

WHAT IT EVEN MEANS TO BE A REFUGEE ATHLETE.

HOW THEY GET TO PERFORM IN THE OLYMPICS.

>> YEAH.

SO, FOR ME, SPECIFICALLY, MY SPORT, SWIMMING, AND I RETIRED, BUT WHEN I WAS A SWIMMER, IT WAS HOME AWAY FROM HOME FOR ME, WHEN I GOT TO GERMANY, I WANTED TO BE INCLUDED, I WANTED TO BE A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, I WANTED TO GIVE BACK TO GERMANY, AND I FELT LIKE SWIMMING IS MY WAY TO SHOW THAT REFUGEES CAN DREAM AND ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS, AND BE ABLE TO FIGHT FOR IT.

SO, THE TEAM COMPETING HERE, THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT STORIES, THEY ALL WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRIES, BECAUSE OF WAR, POLITICS, AND VIOLENCE, AND NONE OF THEM REALLY CHOSE TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRIES, SO FOR THEM TO BE HERE, TO COMPETE AND TO REPRESENT MILLIONS OF REFUGEES AROUND THE WORLD IS REALLY IMPORTANT, TO SHOW, WHETHER THAT'S YOUNGER REFEREE GEES OR ANYONE, BASICALLY, AROUND THE WORLD, THAT A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN YOUR LIFE, BUT YOU CAN DETERMINE WHAT YOU CAN DO NEXT.

AND, YEAH, OBSTACLES CANNOT REALLY STAND IN THE WAY.

THEY'RE HERE, AND THEY ARE REALLY FILLED WITH JOY AND AS I SAID, THEY ARE SO BRAVE TO BE HERE AND TO REPRESENT MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

>> AND A MEDAL WIN AT THAT, TOO.

AT THESE GAMES.

>> EXACTLY.

>> FOR BOXER.

GUARANTEED HERSELF A MEDAL AFTER WINNING HER QUARTERFINAL, SHE'S ORIGINALLY FROM CAMEROON, LIVING IN BRITAIN.

THERE YOU SEE HER, FOR 15 YEARS, SINCE SHE WAS 10 YEARS OLD.

SHE'S STILL WAITING FOR BRITISH CITIZENSHIP, BUT WOW.

WHAT A MOMENT THIS WAS.

CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT, LISTEN, FOR ANY ATHLETE, THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO WIN A MEDAL, BUT TO ACHIEVE WHAT AND OVERCOME EVERYTHING THAT THESE REFUGEES, YOU YOURSELF HAVE, TO GET THAT MEDAL, WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT FEELING IN THAT MOMENT MUST BE LIKE?

>> THESE ATHLETES ARE NOT JUST GOING THROUGH THE NORMAL PROCESS OF OTHER OLYMPIANS.

THESE ATHLETES, THEY MIGHT HAVE LOST RELATIVES, THEY MIGHT HAVE LOST EVERYTHING.

THEY MIGHT HAVE LOST THEIR HOME, THEIR FAMILIES, AND THEIR FRIENDS, AND THEY STARTED ALL OVER AGAIN FROM ZERO IN A NEW COUNTRY.

THEY HAD TO MEET NEW FRIENDS, THEY HAD TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE, THEY HAD TO FEEL HOME AGAIN, AND SOME OF THEM STILL DON'T FEEL HOME.

AND THEY STRUGGLE A LOT.

AND SPORTS CAN BE THEIR ESCAPE, WHETHER THAT'S HELPING WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH, WITH THEIR TRAUMA, WITH BUILDING SELF-ESTEEM AGAIN, SO, I THINK THIS IS THE SIMPLEST RIGHT, IS TO HAVE -- TO HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION AND SPORTS, I THINK THIS SHOULD BE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, AND WE SHOULD WELCOME REFUGEES, BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTUALLY ASSETS TO OUR COMMUNITIES, TO THE HOST COMMUNITIES, AND THEY CAN REALLY CONTRIBUTE AND BE INCREDIBLE ROLE MODELS, JUST LIKE THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM.

SO, SOME OF THEM ARE STILL WAITING, I MEAN, ALL OF THEM ARE STILL WAITING FOR THEIR CITIZENSHIP, SOME OF THEM LIVE IN THESE COUNTRIES FOR MORE THAN TEN YEARS AND THEY DON'T HAVE IT, SO, THE STRUGGLE OF COMPETING WASN'T -- FOR THE OLYMPIC TEAM BEFORE IT WAS CREATED, IT WASN'T EVEN AN OPPORTUNITY.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO EVEN REPRESENT GREAT BRITAIN, AND I THINK SHE'S SUCH AN ASSET TO THAT TEAM, SO, I'M REALLY, REALLY HAPPY THAT CINDY, WHICH, HER MIDDLE NAME IS WINNER, IS WINNING NOW, AND I'M REALLY, REALLY SO EXCITED.

YEAH, HER MIDDLE NAME IS WINNER.

>> THAT'S AMAZING.

>> SO, IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE.

HER PARENTS JUST KNEW SHE WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE WOMAN, AND SHE WILL COMPETE AGAIN TOMORROW.

AND A LOT OF THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM, MOST OF THEM, COMPETED INCREDIBLY, AND THEY COME TOGETHER FROM EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD TO FORM THIS INCREDIBLE TEAM TO SEND THE MESSAGE OF HOPE AND PEACE TO THE WORLD, SO -- I'M REALLY PROUD.

>> WELL, NO DOUBT CINDY WINNER DESERVES NOT ONLY A MEDAL, BUT AS YOU NOTED, CITIZENSHIP FOR GREAT BRITAIN, WHERE SHE'S BEEN LIVING FOR 15 YEARS.

AND I'M SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED JUST THE MENTAL HEALTH ASPECT OF THIS, BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, ATHLETES THAT AREN'T EVEN REFUGEES, SIMONE BILES HAS TALKED ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH, IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT SO MANY OF THESE ATHLETES HAVE COME PUBLIC IN TALKING ABOUT THEIR STRUGGLES.

BUT FOR REFUGEES, ONE CAN ONLY IMAGINE IT'S TEN-FOLD, WHAT THEY'VE EXPERIENCED, THE LOSS OF FAMILY MEMBERS, I'M SO SORRY, I KNOW THAT YOU RECENTLY ALSO EXPERIENCED THE LOSS OF A FAMILY MEMBER.

CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING THIS TEAM AND TEAMMATES THERE FOR EACH OTHER?

BECAUSE UNLIKE ANYONE ELSE, THEY UNDERSTAND.

WHAT THE OTHERS ARE EXPERIENCING.

>> YEAH.

SO, THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THAT, I ALWAYS TRY TO BE VERY AUTHENTIC.

I LOST A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY TRYING TO CROSS YESTERDAY.

I THINK SHE WAS VERY, VERY SCARED OF THE CROSSING AND SHE PASSED AWAY FROM A HEART ATTACK, SO, I WANTED TO SHARE THAT, BECAUSE I WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW THAT REFUGEES ARE REALLY FORCED TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRIES AND JUST LIKE ME IN THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM, THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM THAT DEAL WITH THE TRAUMA AND PAIN OF ABANDONING EVERYTHING, NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO GO BACK HOME FOR THE FUNERALS OF THEIR LOVED ONES.

I MEAN, CINDY WAS NOT ABLE TO GO BACK TO THE CAMEROON, BECAUSE SHE IS APART OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, AS EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS WHY WE CAN'T GO BACK HOME, OR WE CAN'T BE CLOSE TO OUR LOVED ONES WHEN WE LOSE THEM.

SO, IT'S JUST REALLY INCREDIBLY TOUGH, AND I THINK THE SPORT IS OUR -- AS I SAID, HOME AWAY FROM HOME.

SO, IT IS REALLY, REALLY INCREDIBLE TO SEE THAT THE IOC AND UNHCR ARE SUPPORTING THE OLYMPIC TEAM, AND GIVING THEM THIS OPPORTUNITY TO FEEL NORMAL AGAIN, TO FEEL THAT THEY BELONG AGAIN, AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE ATHLETES ARE GIVING EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES TO ANY ATHLETE AROUND THE WORLD, I MEAN, THIS IS THE ONLY -- ONLY THE THIRD TIME THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM EXISTS, AND WE HAVE TWO CHANCES OF A MEDAL.

WE ALSO HAVE FERNANDO, WHO IS A KAYAKER, AND IS JUST GOING TO BE INCREDIBLE, HE WON A MEDAL IN TOKYO, AND, YEAH, HE'S COMPETING AGAIN, SO, I'M REALLY INCREDIBLY EXCITED TO SEE WHAT THE TEAM DOES, WHETHER THAT'S THIS OLYMPICS OR THE NEXT OLYMPICS.

OF COURSE, IT IS BITTERSWEET FEELING, HAVING THE REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM, BUT I'M REALLY INCREDIBLY PROUD OF WHAT THEY REPRESENT, OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW.

>> WE ARE PROUD OF YOU AND WE ARE PROUD OF THEM.

AND THEY ARE SO FORTUNATE TO HAVE SOMEBODY AS A SPOKESPERSON, AS SOMEBODY THAT THEY CAN LOOK UP TO AS A MENTOR LIKE YOURSELF.

YUSRA, REALLY REPRESENTING THEM SO WELL.

AGAIN, I AM SO SORRY, WE AROR ARE SO SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR FAMILY MEMBER, BUT YOU ARE DOING A REAL SERVICE TO ALL OF THESE REFUGEES WHO ARE JUST WANTING TO DO WHAT THEY LOVE AND THAT IS SPORT.

YUSRA MARDINI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM THE PARIS OLYMPICS.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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