August 12, 2024

>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> UKRAINE IS PROVING THAT IT CAN INDEED RESTORE JUSTICE AND ENSURE THE NECESSARY PRESSURE ON THE AGGRESSOR.

>> UKRAINIAN FORCES PRESS DEEPER INTO RUSSIA AS MOSCOW STRIKES AROUND KIEV.

I ASKED THE U.S. FORMER AMBASSADOR OF RUSSIA JOHN SOLOMON PUTIN WILL RESPOND TO THE GAMBLE.

THEN AN ISRAELI STRIKE ON A SCHOOL REFUGE IN GAZA CITY, SPARKING INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.

WE ARE JOINED AFTER SPENDING TWO MONTHS IN GAZA WITH THE NGO MSF.

>>> WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS SEND A MESSAGE TO ME.

AND OTHER JOURNALISTS IN EXILE THAT WE ARE STILL TARGETS.

>> MICHELLE MARTIN SITS DOWN WITH NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST MARSHA GERSON TO DISCUSS THE RECENT CONVICTION IN ABSENTIA BY A MOSCOW POOL.

AND THE RUSSIA PRISONER SWAP.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY, THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WE ARE, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MIKE J LESTER NAIR, SETON J MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM IF , I WENT TO IN LONDON IT'S BEEN A WEEK SINCE UKRAINE LAUNCHED ITS SURPRISE INCURSION INTO RUSSIA.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S MILITARY CHIEF SAYS THEIR TROOPS NOW CONTROL ABOUT 1000 SQUARE KILOMETERS OF RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

AND RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES SAY THEY HAVE EVACUATED AROUND 120,000 CIVILIANS.

TODAY PRESIDENT PUTIN AGAIN FRAMED THIS AS A BATTLE OF SURVIVAL AGAINST THE WEST.

SAYING THAT THE MOVE IS NEGOTIATING TACTIC.

>> IT APPEARS THAT THE ENEMY IS FULFILLING THEIR WILL IN THE WEST FIGHTING US WITH THE HANDS OF UKRAINIANS.

SO LOOKS LIKE THE ENEMY SEEKS TO IMPROVE THIS NEGOTIATING POSITION.

IN THE FUTURE.

>> WHILE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY STRATEGY DURING AN ADDRESS TO THE NATION ON SATURDAY NIGHT.

>> I RECEIVED SEVERAL REPORTS FROM COMMANDER AND CHIEF REGARDING THE FRONT LINES AND OUR ACTIONS TO PUSH THE WAR ONTO THE AGGRESSOR'S TERRITORY.

I'M GRATEFUL TO EVERY UNIT OF DEFENSE FORCES ENSURING THAT.

UKRAINE IS PROVING THAT IT CAN INDEED RESTORE JUSTICE AND ENSURE THE NECESSARY PRESSURE ON THE AGGRESSOR.

>> OVER THE WEEKEND MOSCOW STRUCK BACK WITH A BARRAGE OF MISSILE AND DRONE ATTACKS IN THE REGION, THAT KILLED A FATHER AND HIS FOUR-YEAR-OLD SON ANOTHER STRIKE IN THE EAST THE DONETSK REGION KILLED AT LEAST 14 PEOPLE.

JOHN SULLIVAN WAS APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND STILL THERE WHEN PUTIN LAUNCHED HIS FULL- SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE IN FEBRUARY 2022.

HE PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE AND HE RECOUNTS ALL OF THIS IN HIS NEW BOOK MIDNIGHT IN MOSCOW.

HE IS JOINING US NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

AMBASSADOR SULLIVAN WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> VERY GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

YOU READ ZIELINSKI'S MOVE, IS IT A GAMBLE OR A NEGOTIATION TACTIC AS PUTIN SAYS?

>> MAY BE A BIT OF BOTH, IT CERTAINLY IS A SIGNIFICANT UNDERTAKING BY THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY WITH A LOT OF EQUIPMENT AND PERSONNEL BEING PUT TO USE.

BUT SEEING THE RUSSIAN REACTION TO THIS AND FOLLOWING IT OVER THE LAST WEEK AT FIRST THERE WAS MILD SURPRISE AT THIS ANNOYANCE ON THE BORDER BUT AFTER A WEEK AND ALMOST 1000 SQUARE KILOMETERS OF RUSSIAN TERRITORY SEIZED, THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT AND THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE ARE REALIZING THAT THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM THAT THE GOVERNMENT, THE MILITARY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND MAYBE REVEALING FURTHER REVEALING FLAWS AND OTHER INADEQUACIES IN THEIR OWN MILITARY AND THEIR OWN DEFENSE OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

>> IS REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE WE READ FOR INSTANCE THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THAT REGION SOME RESIDENCE PUT OUT SORT OF AN SOS, THEY HAVE ASKED HIM TO HELP VIA VIDEO AND SAID THE LYING WHEN THEY SAID IT WAS UNDER CONTROL, ONE REASON IT IN THE REGION SAYS THESE LIES ENABLE THE LOCAL RESIDENTS TO DIE.

SO YOU THINK PUTIN ACTUALLY COULD FINALLY FACE SOME PRESSURE OR IS THIS JUST ANOTHER MATCH BITE FROM THE PEOPLE?

>> WELL, IT IS CERTAINLY PRESSURE ON PUTIN AND YOU KNOW IT REMINDS ME OF?

IT REMINDS ME OF THE PAGOSA MUTINY LAST YEAR.

AND YOU KNOW, IT REVEALS INADEQUACIES IN THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM AND IN THE RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY AND PUT SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE ON PUTIN.

HE'S HAD , THEY'VE HAD AT LEAST 100,000 RUSSIAN CITIZENS HAVE HAD TO BE EVACUATED, LARGE NUMBERS OF RUSSIAN TROOPS MAINLY CONSCRIPTS KILLED, SLAUGHTERED WITH MISSILE STRIKES BY THE UKRAINIANS.

AND RUSSIANS AND CITIZENS I SEE THIS IN RUSSIAN SOCIAL MEDIA INCLUDING PRO-WAR SOCIAL MEDIA, ARE ASKING DIFFICULT QUESTIONS, AND THE EXPLANATION IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS LYING TO US.

ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

>> AMBASSADOR SULLIVAN, THESE BLOGGERS HAD BEEN CRITICIZING THE WAR FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

AND NOW THEY ARE DOING IT AGAIN, PUTIN DOESN'T TAKE NOTICE, YOU MENTIONED THE MUTINY THAT WAS PUT DOWN QUICKLY, PUTIN THEN HAD THEM ASSASSINATED OR WHATEVER YOU MIGHT THINK AND THAT'S THAT.

DO YOU THINK THIS ONE WILL BE AS EASY TO CONTROL FOR RUSSIA OR DOES THIS CROSS SOME KIND OF LINE THAT HASN'T YET BEEN CROSSED?

>> WELL, IT'S POSSIBLE, THE RUSSIANS WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT IN THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS INVOLVED IN THIS WHAT THEY CALL SERIOUS PROVOCATION OR TERRORIST INCIDENT THAT IT IS SOME SORT OF REDLINE THAT UKRAINIANS HAVE CROSSED BUT WHAT EVERYONE FORGETS INCLUDING THE RUSSIANS, IT WAS THE RUSSIANS THAT STARTED THIS WAR.

THAT CRIED HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR.

AND NOW THEY ARE PAYING THE PRICE, THEY ARE PAYING THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.

BUT I WOULD ALSO ADD, JUST AS WE SAW LAST YEAR WITH THE PROMOTION MUTINY, PUTIN WILL RESPOND AS DECISIVELY AS HE CAN TO PUSH THE UKRAINIANS OUT.

BUT WHAT THAT ALSO MEANS IS THAT WILL BE A SIGNIFICANT DISTRACTION TO WHATEVER OFFENSIVE MANEUVERS THEY WERE PLANNING IN UKRAINE, HE WILL HAVE TO WITHDRAW FORCES THAT WERE IN UKRAINE, OR GOING TO UKRAINE TO SUPPORT INOFFENSIVE TO TRY TO DEFEND THE RUSSIAN HOMELAND.

AND PUSH UKRAINIANS OUT OF THAT HOMELAND.

>> I JUST WANTED TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT MORE OF WHAT PUTIN SAID TO HIS MEETING AND TO THE NATION.

ABOUT YOU KNOW, YOU HEARD HIM SAY THIS IS PROBABLY A NEGOTIATING TACTIC THE ENEMY AND THIS IS HOW HE EXPANDED ON THAT, TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WHAT KIND OF NEGOTIATIONS PEOPLE WHO INDISCRIMINATELY TARGET CIVILIANS, CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, OR TRY TO THREATEN NUCLEAR POWER FACILITIES.

WHAT CAN WE EVEN TALK ABOUT WITH THEM?

>> AMBASSADOR I DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS REFERRING TO, UKRAINE OR HIMSELF?

THAT SURELY TAKES THE AWARD FOR REFLECTING, EXACTLY WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST NEARLY 10 YEARS FRANKLY.

>> YOU BEAT ME TO IT, I MEAN THIS FROM A MAN WHO LAUNCHED A WAR THAT HAS HAD A CATASTROPHIC EFFECT ON THE SECOND LARGEST BY GEOGRAPHIC AREA COUNTRY IN EUROPE, ALMOST 15 MILLION UKRAINIANS EITHER KILLED , WOUNDED, DRIVEN FROM THEIR HOMES AS INTERNALLY DISPLACED PERSONS OR REFUGEES FROM THEIR COUNTRIES.

HOSPITALS LASTED, SCHOOLS , YOU NAME IT AND FOR THE RUSSIANS NOW, TO CLAIM THAT THIS IS TERRORISM BY THE UKRAINIANS IN RESPONSE TO A WAR THAT THE RUSSIANS AND PUTIN HIMSELF STARTED, THAT'S IT.

>> AMBASSADOR CLEARLY THE UKRAINIANS NEED TO DO SOMETHING, RIGHT?

WE HAVE BEEN READING ALL THESE REPORTS FROM THE FRONT LINES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, THANKS IN GREAT DEAL TO THE UNITED STATES AND FRANKLY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INFLUENCE, NOT TO SEND THE WEAPONS THAT THEY NEEDED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, THE U.S. HAS ALREADY SAID THIS INCURSION DOES NOT VIOLATE THE REDLINES ON MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS GOING NEXT I MEAN IS THIS GOING TO BE A MAJOR NEWS STRATEGIC TACTIC, HOW CAN THE UKRAINIANS KEEP UP AND INVASION INTO RUSSIAN TERRITORY FOR VERY LONG?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT THIS REFLECTS , I AM NOT A MILITARY EXPERT BUT WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM MY FORMER COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS WHO ARE, THE RUSSIANS AND THE UKRAINIANS BOTH ARE IN FACE, ARE FACING ENTRENCHED POSITIONS ON BOTH SIDES IN UKRAINE AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE EVEN SMALL TACTICAL ADVANTAGE, WHAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE DONE IS FOUND A WEAK SPOT.

AND MADE PROGRESS AND BLASTED THROUGH A WEAK SPOT IN THE RUSSIAN DEFENSES AND CLAIMED AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID 1000 SQUARE KILOMETERS OF TERRITORY, IT'S WHAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IN UKRAINE YOU KNOW, SINCE THE WAR STARTED.

IS TO CAPTURE THAT TERRITORY AND AS FOR BARGAINING LEVERAGE, WHICH IS WHAT PUTIN CALLS IT, AGAIN FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS ALL STEMS FROM A WAR THAT HE STARTED.

THIS IS A RESPONSE, A DEFENSIVE RESPONSE BY THE UKRAINIANS THAT CAPTURES TERRITORY THAT THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN USING TO BLAST CIVILIAN TARGETS IN UKRAINE.

>> AND BASSETT ARE I MENTIONED WHEN I INTRODUCED YOU THAT YOU HAD WRITTEN A NEW BOOK, MIDNIGHT IN MOSCOW AND IT TALKS, YOU TALK ABOUT WORKING NOT JUST ABOUT UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP BUT ALSO PRESUMABLY YOUR ATTRACTIONS AND INTERACTIONS PUTIN AS WELL, YOUR ACCOUNT KIND OF AN AMUSING STORY THAT WHEN YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKED TO YOU AND YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO GO TO MOSCOW HE LOOKED AT YOU AS IF YOU WERE NUTTY, WHAT WAS THAT MOMENT LIKE, WHY DID YOU WANT TO GO THERE?

>> WELL, AT THAT POINT AS I EXPLAINED IN THE BOOK, CHRISTIANE I HAD BEEN DECK IT DEPUTY OF STATE FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND VERY STRESSFUL JOB AND I WAS LOOKING TO MAKE A CHANGE AND AT THAT POINT, JOHN HUNTSMAN, OUR AMBASSADOR IN MOSCOW HAD COME BACK TO WASHINGTON THIS IS THE SUMMER OF 2019, TO TELL THE PRESIDENT AND SECRETARY POMPEO AND ME HE WAS LEAVING HIS POST IN MOSCOW TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR AGAIN IN UTAH.

AND THE THOUGHT OCCURRED TO ME THAT THIS WAS A POSITION FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

THAT I, THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ASSUME AND HAVE BEEN A LIFELONG OFF THE HOT SEAT AND I KNOW THAT SAYING MOVING TO MOSCOW IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE WOULD THINK OF AS GETTING OFF THE HOT SEAT BUT I EXPLAINED IN THE BOOK WHY I WANTED TO DO IT, BUT AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP, THIS WAS IN AUGUST 2019.

WHEN I SAW HIM, WE WERE COMING OUT OF A MEETING IN THE CABINET ROOM AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND HE HAD BEEN ASKED BY A REPORTER WHETHER HE WAS GOING TO NOMINATE ME TO BE AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA AND HE SAID YES.

AND THEN HE LATER AFTER THAT MEDIA SCRUM CAME UP TO ME AND SAID YOU REALLY WANT TO DO THIS?

AND HE THOUGHT AT THE TIME, HE THOUGHT THAT THEN SECRETARY POMPEO WAS FORCING ME OUT.

AS DEPUTY SECRETARY WHICH WAS DEFINITELY NOT THE CASE.

BECAUSE HE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO LEAVE A BEAUTIFUL OFFICE IN MAHOGANY ROW WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO GO TO COLD AND HOSTILE MOSCOW BUT THAT WAS MY CHOICE, I REALLY WANTED TO GO.

>> THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOESN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND, TALKING ABOUT ENDING THE UKRAINE WAR IN 24 HOURS, HE TALKED ABOUT GETTING EVAN GERSHKOVICH BACK IN A RECORD TIME, NO DEAL, YOU KNOW HOW HE IS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE POLICY WOULD BE IF HE WERE TO COME BACK INTO POWER, WHAT WOULD THE RUSSIA AND UKRAINE POLICY BE?

DO YOU THINK UNDER A FUTURE AGAIN PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> I THINK WE SAW A SIGNAL OF THAT CHRISTIANE IN AN OP-ED I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL THAT FORMER SECRETARY POMPEO, MY FORMER BOSS WROTE, ABOUT A RUSSIA POLICY POTENTIALLY IN A NEW TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WHICH INVOLVED A CEASE-FIRE WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING THE RUSSIAN SEIZURE OF THE TERRITORY THAT THEY'VE ALREADY GAINED IN UKRAINE.

BUT SUPPLYING AND CONTINUING TO SUPPLY ARMS AND SUPPORT TO THE UKRAINIANS UNDER SORT OF A LEASE ARRANGEMENT, AND YOU KNOW, APPROACHING THE CONFLICT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE ONE THING I WOULD KEEP IN MIND I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF SPECULATION ABOUT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD DO, HE DOESN'T LIKE TO LOSE.

AND IF HE IS PERCEIVED AS THE PERSON WHO LOST UKRAINE, THAT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR HIM EITHER, HE WAS ASKED IN THE DEBATE IN JUNE WITH BIDEN, I THINK ESSENTIALLY DO YOU WANT TO SEE PUTIN WIN IN UKRAINE OR DEFEAT UKRAINE.

AND HE ANSWERED WITHOUT HESITATION NO.

THE QUESTION IS HOW HE IS GOING TO GO ABOUT DOING IT USING OUR ALLIES, I HOPE AND AGAIN, I THINK THIS OP-ED BY FORMER SECRETARY POMPEO MAY BE A SIGNAL, A POSITIVE SIGNAL OF HOW THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, IF TRUMP IS ELECTED MIGHT APPROACH IT.

>> AS YOU CAN SEE THE POLLS AS WELL AND THE ENERGY IN THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE SINCE KAMALA HARRIS HAS TAKEN THE NOMINATION, AND YOU PROBABLY ARE READING HOW NATO AND OTHER ALLIES IN THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE ARE REACTING THEY SEEM TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE REASSURED AND SOLID ON NATO AND SHE IS A SOLID TRANSATLANTIC CYST BUT THEY ALSO CONCERNED THAT THE U.S. WILL MOVE ITS GAZE FROM NATO OR RATHER FROM RUSSIA AND UKRAINE IN EUROPE AND KEEP THE GAZE ON THE ENDO PACIFIC, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RUSSIA UKRAINE , WILL IT STILL BE NUMBER ONE?

>> SO I HAVE SEEN THIS NOW IN SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS OVER TIME.

HAVE COME INTO OFFICE AND SEEKING TO PIVOT TO ASIA.

AND DESCRIBING OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRC IS THE KEY DETERMINATIVE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HAVE, AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS OR CHIEF STRATEGIC COMPETITOR, AND EVERY TIME THE ADMINISTRATION WHETHER IT'S THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OR THE BEEN THOSE THAT UPSET THE CALCULATION, SO PUTIN IS GOING TO GET A VOTE IN THIS AND THIS WAR, HIS WAR IN UKRAINE IS GOING TO CONTINUE.

SO MY EXPECTATION IS THIS, THIS WILL HAVE TO BE NO MATTER WHAT THE POLICY INSTINCTS ARE, OF A NEW ADMINISTRATION WHETHER IT'S TRUMP OR HARRIS.

THE UKRAINE WAR IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE A PRIORITY FOR THE NEWEST ADMINISTRATION NO MATTER WHO IS PRESIDENT BECAUSE PUTIN WON'T ALLOW IT TO SLIP OFF THE AGENDA.

>> DO YOU SUPPORT TRUMP AND ARE YOU SUPPORTING HIM FOR PRESIDENT?

>> I HAVEN'T TAKEN A POSITION, I AM A LIFELONG REPUBLICAN, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS BOTH BY BOOKS.

SO PROMOTING MY BOOK AS MICHAEL JORDAN ONCE SAID ABOUT SELLING SNEAKERS I AM A LIFELONG REPUBLICAN AND EXPECT THAT MY CONTINUE.

>> OKAY.

>> SO, YES YOU WILL SUPPORT HIM AND GO FOR HIM, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT PRISONER EXCHANGES BECAUSE YOU MET WITH ONE OF THE AMERICAN PRISONERS, PAUL WHELAN WHEN HE WAS IN DETENTION, PRESIDENT TRUMP, CONGRATULATING PUTIN ON MAKING ANOTHER QUOTE UNQUOTE GREAT DEAL, I WANT TO JUST PLAY THIS SOUNDBITE FROM TRUMP.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE VLADIMIR PUTIN FOR HAVING MADE YET ANOTHER GREAT DEAL.

DID YOU SEE THE DEAL WE MADE?

WE WANT TO GET PEOPLE IN AND WE HAVE 59 HOSTAGES , HAVE RELEASED SOME OF THE GREATEST KILLERS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD AND SOME OF THE MOST EVIL KILLERS, THEY GOT.

AND WE GOT OUR PEOPLE BACK BUT BOY WE MAKE SOME HORRIBLE DEALS AND IT'S NICE TO SAY WE GOT THEM BACK.

BUT DOES THAT SET A BAD PRECEDENT?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE U.S.

DIDN'T PAY ANYTHING IN THIS ROUND AND OF COURSE AS WE KNOW TRUMP DID GET INTO ALL SORTS OF NEGOTIATIONS AND PRISONER SWAPS WITH THE PEOPLE HE CONSIDERS THE SCUM OF THE EARTH WHETHER THEY ARE IRAN, AND ALL THE REST OF IT, BUT THAT ASIDE, DOES IT SET A BAD PRECEDENT, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, CLEARLY AMERICA WANTS TO GET ITS PEOPLE BACK.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THERE WAS A PRICE THAT WAS PAID BY THE UNITED STATES IN RELEASING NOT JUST THE RUSSIANS WHO WERE CONVICTED AND IMPRISONED IN THE UNITED STATES BUT OF COURSE THE PERSON THAT PUTIN MOST WANTED BACK WHICH WAS THE FSB OFFICER WHO WAS SENT ON A MISSION TO COMMIT A MURDER ON THE STREETS OF BERLIN.

SO THE WEST HAS PAID A SIGNIFICANT PRICE FOR GETTING THESE DETAINEES OUT.

IT'S ALWAYS A VERY DIFFICULT AND EMOTIONAL DECISION AND ULTIMATELY COMES TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND I HAVE SEEN IT NOW BOTH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAVE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS.

BUT, YOU KNOW IT WAS A GREAT WHEELING FOR EXAMPLE RELEASED, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME VISITING PAUL.

WHEN HE WAS IN PRISON IN RUSSIA.

THAT WAS A GREAT MOMENT FOR THOSE UNITED STATES CITIZENS AND FOR ALL OF US TO BE HAPPY FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.

BUT TO UNDERSTAND AS WELL THAT THERE WAS A PRICE THAT WAS PAID BY THE UNITED STATES AND OUR ALLIES FOR THAT JOYFUL MOMENT.

>> SIMILAR PRICES AS YOU SAID HAVE PAID.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

>> NEXT RETURN TO THE BLOOD HE ISRAEL GAZA WAR NOW INTO ITS 11th MONTH SINCE THE HAMAS ATROCITIES OF OCTOBER 7.

U.S., ISRAELI AND PERHAPS HAMAS DELEGATIONS ARE MEANT TO NEGOTIATE ANOTHER CEASE-FIRE ATTEMPT LATER THIS WEEK AS THE REGION ALSO RAISES FOR A RESPONSE FROM IRAN TO ASSASSINATION OF THE HAMAS CHIEF NEGOTIATOR AND LEADER.

MEANTIME, IN GAZA THE LEVEL OF KILLING CONTINUES BODIES ARE STILL BEING IDENTIFIED.

AFTER AN ISRAELI STRIKE KILLED NEARLY 100 PEOPLE SHELTERING OUT OF SCHOOL AND A MOSQUE IN GAZA CITY ACCORDING TO LOCAL OFFICIALS, THE DIRECTOR OF AMBULANCE AND EMERGENCY SERVICES IN NORTHERN GAZA SAID THEY WERE QUOTE CIVILIANS AND UNARMED CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY MEN AND WOMEN.

ISRAEL AND ITS U.S.

ALLIES REPEATED THE SAME PLATITUDES THEY HAVE DONE SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN.

>> THIS MILITARY FACILITY WAS EMBEDDED INSIDE THE SCHOOL BUILDING IN GAZA CITY.

AFTER WE RECEIVED CLEAR INTELLIGENCE OF THE THREAT POSED BY THIS TERRORIST AND IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, HE TOOK NUMEROUS STEPS TO MITIGATE THE STRIKE.

AGAINST THE TERRORIST IN ONE SPECIFIC BUILDING OF THE COMPOUND.

>> YET AGAIN FAR TOO MANY CIVILIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED.

I'M ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO GO AFTER THE TERRORISTS THAT ARE HAMAS BUT AS I HAVE SAID MANY, MANY TIMES, THEY ALSO HAVE I BELIEVE AN IMPORTANT RESPONSIBILITY TO AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

>> WORKING IN WAR ZONES AND HUMANITARIAN DISASTERS FOR YEARS FOR THE NGO MSF, HE HAS JUST SPENT TWO MONTHS IN GAZA AND IS JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HEAR THIS OBVIOUSLY SINCE YOU HAVE COME OUT, THIS LATEST STRIKE HAS HAPPENED.

WHEN YOU HEAR BOTH THE AMERICANS AND THE ISRAELIS SAYING ALL THE SAME THINGS THEY SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, HOW DO YOU REACT, GIVEN WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN THERE?

>> IT'S VERY HARD AND I AM IN A PERIOD WHERE I'VE ONLY JUST LEFT GAZA AND I THINK FOR A LITTLE BIT OF SELF-PRESERVATION I AM ROLLING OFF MY EMOTIONS, RIPPED MY REACTION IS ONE OF FEELING OF SICKNESS, I FEEL SICK.

THIS HAS BEEN MY SEVENTH WAR WITH MSF AND IT'S BEEN UNIQUE.

THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS KILLED, THAT THEY CAN'T MOVE TO SAFETY HAS BEEN UNIQUE FOR ME.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE THERE.

YOU CAN SEE THE NAVY SHIPS ON THE SEA.

AND YOU CAN SEE THE APACHE HELICOPTERS AND THE FIGHTER JETS, THE DRONES ARE CONSTANT, YOU KNOW THE SOUNDS OF THE QUAD COPTERS, YOU LEARN VERY QUICKLY ALL DAY TO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SHELLING FROM WARSHIPS.

OR QUAD COPTERS OR APACHE GUNS AND THIS IS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME.

AND THEN YOU ARE AT WORK AND THERE ARE MASS CASUALTY AFTER MASS CASUALTY AFTER MASS CASUALTY OF PEOPLE LIVING IN A SO-CALLED SAFE ZONE AND, YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS AND YET AGAIN THEIR ORDERS FOR CIVILIANS I THINK NEARLY 70,000 OR SO HAVE BEEN TOLD TO MOVE FROM ONE END OF THE CITY TO THE OTHER, AGAIN, IT JUST KEEPS ON HAPPENING.

WHAT DOES THAT TOLL ON THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW WE LOOK AT IT FROM OUTSIDE AND IT'S JUST A LOT OF PEOPLE MOVING.

BUT, HOW DO PEOPLE PROCESS BEING TOLD TO MOVE EVERY OTHER WEEK IT SEEMS?

>> MY COLLEAGUES ALONE SOME OF THEM WERE DISPLACED FORCIBLY DISPLACED IN THIS WAY TWO TIMES IN EIGHT WEEKS THAT I WAS THERE.

AND THESE ARE HEALTHCARE WORKERS AND THE WHOLE POPULATION ARE AMONGST THEM.

IT IS A FORM OF HARASSMENT.

THERE IS AN INSTABILITY AND A LACK OF SAFETY.

FOR THE CHILDREN AND THE PEOPLE.

IF YOU HAVE TO AND SOMETIMES THE EVACUATION ORDERS COME IN AND THE VIOLENCE, THE MILITARY ACTION STARTS IMMEDIATELY SO IT IS A REAL RUSH AND YOU SEE JUST THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND IMAGES THAT THE WORLD HAS SEEN AND TRAFFIC RUNS TO A STANDSTILL AND YOU SEE THE LOOK OF DESPAIR AND FEAR IN PEOPLE'S FACES.

AND THE SPACE TO WHICH PEOPLE CAN MOVE IS EVER, EVER MORE CONCENTRATED.

YOU HAVE A HUGE CONCENTRATION OF PEOPLE IN A TINY SPACE WHICH BEFORE THE INVASION OF EARLY MAY, WAS ESSENTIALLY A STRIP OF SAND.

SO THE SERVICES IN THOSE AREAS ARE NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE HYGIENE, SANITATION.

THESE ALL LEADING TO DISEASES AND ILLNESSES THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN SO THERE IS A LACK OF SAFETY AND THE LACK OF HYGIENE AND SANITATION.

I LISTENED.

>> IT WAS SHOCKING AND AN EXTRAORDINARY QUOTE UNQUOTE INTERVIEW ON THE BBC WITH AN ISRAELI SPOKESPERSON, LAYING INTO A VERY DISTINGUISHED BBC REPORTER WHEN SHE WAS ASKING ABOUT THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND REPEATING WHAT LOCAL PALESTINIAN DOCTORS WERE SAYING ABOUT THIS LATEST ATTACK, CALLED FOR A PRO-PALESTINIAN PROPAGANDIST , IT WAS TRULY AWFUL AND I JUST WONDER THOUGH, HOW, WHEN YOU SEE WHAT'S GOING ON AND YOU KNOW THAT HAMAS IS THERE AND THEY HAVE EVEN REPORTED IT THEMSELVES.

CIVILIAN SHELTER AREAS, DO YOU SEE ARMED MEN, DO YOU SEE, CAN YOU DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHO AND WHAT?

>> I HAVE NOT SEEN ARMED MEN AND MILITARY ACTION IN AND AMONGST THE TENTS, SO WHEN YOU ARE AT WORK, I CERTAINLY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY MILITARY ACTION OR ARMED MEN WITHIN THE HOSPITAL GROUNDS.

I HAVE WITNESSED HOWEVER, STRIKES FROM THE ISRAELIS IN THESE SO-CALLED HUMANITARIAN ZONES WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN ONE OF THE STRIKES WAS AT THE WALL OF THE COMPOUND, THESE CAUSE MASS CASUALTIES, THERE IS NOT ANYWHERE SAFE SO THAT'S WHY WE ARE ASKING FOR A CEASE-FIRE BECAUSE WE CANNOT PRACTICE SAFELY AND PEOPLE ARE COMING INTO HEALTH SERVICES THAT IS ON ITS KNEES SO I HAVE NOT SEEN MILITARY ACTION IN AND AMONGST THE TENTS OR IN HOSPITALS.

>> WE ARE SHOWING SOME OF YOUR VIDEO, GIVE US A LITTLE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WHAT YOU PHOTOGRAPH THERE.

>> THIS LOOKS LIKE THE EMERGENCY ROOM ACTUALLY AND I CAN'T QUITE SEE.

THERE YOU GO.

SO YOU'VE GOT BLOOD ON THE FLOOR, YOU GOT PEOPLE WORKING AND YOU GOT INJURED PEOPLE COMING IN.

WHEN I TELL YOU THAT THESE MASS CASUALTIES FOR EXAMPLE ON JULY 13 HUNDRED AND 89 INJURED PEOPLE AND 55 DEAD ON JULY 22, 265 INJURED PEOPLE AND OVER 80 DATA.

THIS IS A HUGE INFLUX OF CHILDREN AND HEALTHCARE WORKERS MASS CASUALTY ON THE JULY 13 THAT THE SECOND WAVE OF INJURED COMING IN WERE UNIFORMED AMBULANCE WORKERS.

IT IS SO SHOCKING FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN A WAR TO SEE HEALTHCARE WORKERS COMING IN LIKE THAT.

>> IS ONE OF THE GRIMMEST PLACES FOR HEALTHCARE WORKERS AS WELL.

THEY HAVE BEEN WELL, SOME TARGETED, SOME KILLED IN THE CROSSFIRE, KILLED IN THE EVENT.

HOW DO THE PEOPLE WHO YOU WORK WITH, HOW DO THEY KEEP UP THEIR KNOW, MORAL AND PROFESSIONAL DUTY TO DO NO HARM AND TO KEEP TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE SURVIVE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES?

>> WE ARE ALL MEDICS AT CALL, AND YOU GO TO WORK.

AND THERE IS A HUGE ELEMENT AMONGST MY COLLEAGUES AND YOU KNOW THE NUMBER OF TIMES I HAVE SEEN THEM SHAKING, EYES AND PUPILS DILATED WITH FEAR BECAUSE OF AN EVACUATION ORDER OR STRIKE NEAR WHERE THEY WERE LIVING THAT MEANT THEY HAD TO DISPLACE AND MOVE SOMEWHERE FOR SAFETY ONE NIGHT.

AND THE NEXT DAY THEY ARE AT WORK, FOR EXAMPLE IN MIDDLE OF AN EVACUATION ORDER FOR EXAMPLE JULY 22.

LARGE EVACUATION ORDER FOR EASTERN PARTS, ROLLING MASS CASUALTY ALL DAY.

I LOOK UP FROM MY MASS CASUALTY AND THERE IS A COLLEAGUE THERE WHO I NOTE THAT SHOULDN'T BE THERE AND THERE BROTHER AND HIS CHILDREN AND THEIR, THEIR COLLECTIVE HOME HAD BEEN STRUCK THAT DAY, I GO BACK TO THE WARD AND THE PHYSIOTHERAPIST OR THE COUNSELOR, BOTH IN TEARS WHAT'S HAPPENED , OUR FAMILIES ARE CALLING US FROM THE EVACUATION ZONE, THEY CANNOT MOVE OUT OF THE BUILDING AND CAN SEE ISRAELI ATTACKS THEY DO NOT FEEL SAFE TO COME.

SO EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE PROFESSIONAL YOU ARE WORKING AND COMING TO WORK, YOU HAVE AN ARMOR, YOU STILL YOURSELF, THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE IT PENETRATES YOU, IT PENETRATES YOU AND IT REALLY TAKES YOU BACK AND PEOPLE ARE EXPRESSING TO ME WHEN THEY EXPRESS ANY EMOTION ARE EXPRESSING TO ME THAT THEY WOULD RATHER JUST DIE.

THEY ARE WAITING FOR DEATH.

THEY LOST HOPE.

AND THAT'S PREFERABLE TO WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH WITH THE SERIAL DISPLACEMENT AND THE LACK OF SAFETY.

>> IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AND YOU'VE SAID THIS IS YOUR SEVENTH WAR AND YOU HAVE BEEN IN COUNTLESS DISASTER ZONES FOR MSF, ALL THE RECORDS ARE BEING BROKEN SO TO SPEAK IN GAZA, THE MOST ORDINANCE IN THE SMALLEST TERRITORY AND IS NUMBER OF MONTHS.

HAS BEEN DROPPED, WHAT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES THAT MEAN FOR FALL SILENT, WHAT HAPPENS THE DAY AFTER?

>> TWO OR THREE THINGS I THINK ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SAY IS FOR EXAMPLE THE HOSTAGE RESCUE WAS JUNE 8.

WE ONLY DISCHARGED OUR LAST CHILD FROM THAT WARD FROM OUR WARD TRAUMA UNIT THAT WE ARE RUNNING WITH THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH IN MSF, ON JULY 20.

JUNE 8 TO JULY 20 , THIS IS A CHILD WHO HAD A LEFT FOREARM AMPUTATION AND A SHATTERED FEMUR WITH AN EXTERNAL FIXATOR METALWORK STILL ON AT THE TIME OF DISCHARGE.

ALSO HAD SUCH A SEVERE CONCUSSION THAT HE HAD SEIZURES.

THESE WERE THE CASUALTIES.

WITH THE CROSSFIRE DURING THE RESCUE.

SO THIS IS SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN IN HOSPITAL MORE THAN 40 DAYS , A FAMILY THAT ARE AFFECTED IN THAT WAY AND THAT IS ONE CHILD OF HOW MANY INJURED AND, WE MUSTN'T THEN FORGET THE MENTAL , THE TRAUMA, THE MENTAL HEALTH THAT ALL GAZANS ARE GOING THROUGH, SO WHEN THE GUNS STOP, EVERYTHING THAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS NOT OVER.

THESE PEOPLE NEED REHABILITATION AND NEED TO REGAIN THEIR SENSE OF SAFETY.

SOME RESTORATIVE JUSTICE WOULD BE A GOOD THING TOO.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING, AS YOU KNOW BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND HIS FAR RIGHT ALLIES HAVE TALKED ABOUT TOTAL THE THREE, AND THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ISRAELI REPORT THAT IS SAYING THE DEFENSE MINISTER WHO IS SPEAKING LIKE THAT AT THE VERY BEGINNING HAS NOW SAID THAT TOTAL VICTORY OR ABSOLUTE VICTORY AGAINST HAMAS IS QUOTE A NONSENSE, CRITICIZING THE PRIME MINISTER AND I JUST WONDER HOW YOU VIEW, NOT POLITICALLY BUT DO YOU SEE AREAS THAT ARE SO-CALLED CLEARED OF HAMAS, IS THERE, IS IT GETTING ANY LESS HAMAS OR WHAT?

BECAUSE FROM WHAT WE GATHER OBVIOUSLY THE EVACUATION ORDERS THE STRIKING OF THAT MEANS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL THERE, IT'S LIKE WHACK A MOLE.

>> THE EVACUATION ORDERS IN THE AREAS WHERE YOU ARE GETTING STRIKES ARE REPEATING THEMSELVES.

SO EVEN IN GAZA CITY AND THE NORTH WHERE WE HAD A CLINIC THERE WERE MORE EVACUATION ORDERS NOW BACK AND FORTH, CLEARED, MUCH EARLIER THIS YEAR.

SO THEN COMING BACK TO HAVE TO DO AND ANYMORE MILITARY ACTION WAS A SURPRISE AND IF THAT'S AN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE COMING BACK WELL, IT'S AN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE COMING BACK WHERE THEY WERE CLEARED.

>> THE CONSEQUENCES THAT SOMEWHERE WAS DEEMED SAFE FOR CLEARED, PEOPLE MOVE BACK AND THEN WHEN THERE IS A STRIKE THERE AGAIN, THAT'S WHERE NOWHERE IS SAFE.

>> DO YOU HEAR FROM PEOPLE AT ALL I DON'T KNOW WHERE OR WHETHER THEY WOULD CONFIDE IN YOU.

OCCASIONALLY WHEN THEIR POLLS CAN BE TAKEN.

MORE AND MORE GAZANS ARE ALSO BLAMING HAMAS FOR THEIR PLIGHT.

THEY ARE JUST ANGRY NOW.

AND, WE HEAR IN LEAGUE TESTIMONY OR BIG MESSAGES FROM HAS TO CONTINUE ETC., ETC., WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM GAZANS , WHO DO THEY HOLD RESPONSIBILITY AS WELL.

>> I DO HERE, IN AN EVACUATION MOMENT WHERE YOU SEE PEOPLE MOVING AND YOU DO HERE AND I SPEAK ARABIC SO I UNDERSTAND.

SO YOU HEAR COMPLAINTS ABOUT HAMAS BUT YOU HEAR ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE U.S. AND THE U.N., COMPLAINTS ABOUT LIFE, PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY HAVE BEEN LEFT AND PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE HUMANITY IS NOT RECOGNIZED, PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ABANDONED AND LEFT TO THE SLAUGHTER AND WHEN YOU HAVE TO LIVE A LIFE WHERE THERE IS NO SENSE OF SAFETY, DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

I CAN UNDERSTAND.

>> AND, AS WELL AS YOU KNOW THE DEATHS AND CASUALTIES FROM ACTUALLY BEING YOU KNOW, HIT BY ALL SORTS OF ORDINANCE, THERE IS A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS LITTLE CLEAN WATER AND LITTLE FOOD.

THE PIPELINE HAS NOT BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY EXPANDED.

AND WE ARE HEARING TALK ABOUT DISEASES AND SKIN DISEASES AND AIR AND WATER BORNE PESTILENCE, WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN, THE PICTURES ARE TERRIBLE OF THE IRRITATED SKIN.

>> IN THE PRIMARY HEALTH CARE CENTERS WE ARE RUNNING AMONGST THE FIVE TOP DIAGNOSES, FOUR OF THEM ARE SKIN INFECTIONS.

SCABIES INFESTATION AND I INFECTIONS AND DIARRHEAL INFECTIONS, THESE ARE ALL WATER AND SANITATION RELATED AND THAT'S A SURE SIGN TO SAY THAT HYGIENE, SANITATION AND CLEAN WATER IS NOT THERE.

>> THESE PICTURES NOW, IT IS DREADFUL.

>> AND THERE HAS BEEN HEPATITIS A ALL ALONG AND WE HAVE HAD CHILDREN DYING OF HEPATITIS A IN OUR PEDIATRIC UNITS BUT NOW OF COURSE THE UGLY HEAD OF POLIO REPAIRING ITSELF IN GAZA, THIS IS A WATERBORNE DISEASE.

THIS WAS ERADICATED IN GAZA, THE PROSPECT OF HAVING TO DO A POLIO MAX VACCINATION CAMPAIGN IN THAT INSECURE ENVIRONMENT I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE DONE.

>> THERE IS JUST GOING TO BE SO MUCH FALL OUT EVEN AS I SAID IF THE GUNS EVER FALL SILENT, I WANT TO ASK YOU FINALLY WHAT YOU DID AND HAVE SEEN BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE HEAR FROM THE ISRAELIS THAT THEY ARE LETTING THE GOODS IN AND WE ARE HEARING FROM GAZANS THAT THEY ARE NOT GETTING ENOUGH GOODS IN AND THE INCREDIBLY RIGHT-WING FINANCE MINISTER, SAID IN A SPEECH THAT QUOTE IT MAY JUST BE IMMORAL TO STARVE GAZAN RESIDENTS IN THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS BUT SAYS NO ONE IN THE WORLD WOULD LET US.

TALKING ABOUT 2 MILLION PEOPLE UNTIL THE HOSTAGES WERE RELEASED.

SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE CONDEMNED THEM, SO MANY OF THE ALLIES.

AND THAT IS, SO WHAT DO YOU SEE ABOUT AID IN THAT LOT AND HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT KIND OF COMMENT?

>> FOR THE SUPPLIES WE HAVE NOT HAD ENOUGH AND THE SUPPLIES WE NEED FOR EXAMPLE, THROUGH THE TWO MONTHS I WAS THERE, WE HAD TO EITHER ECONOMIZE WHAT WE USED OR MANUFACTURE AND MAKE SURGICAL GOWNS AND MAKE CRUTCHES FROM LOCAL MARKETS.

WE RAN OUT OF IBUPROFEN, SIMPLE PAINKILLERS.

WE WERE VERY LOW ON FENTANYL AND THERE WAS A BARTERING THAT YOU DO WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS SO, SUPPLIES WERE A CONSTANT BATTLE AND FIRST AND SECOND AND THIRD ORDER RAMIFICATIONS OF RUNNING LOW ON SOMETHING ELSE OR USING OTHER THINGS.

FUEL AT ONE POINT THE BEGINNING OF JULY, THE MINISTRY WAS NOT GETTING ENOUGH FUEL IN AND THIS MEANT THAT WE COULD DO LESS IN THE OPERATING THEATERS WATER WAS NOT BEING PUMPED INTO THE WARDS, YOU HAD TO CLEAN THE WATER OUT OF THE WATERS OF THESE ARE CHALLENGES THAT WERE CONSISTENT FOR EXAMPLE ONE OF MY SHIPMENTS WHICH SHOULD'VE GONE IN REALLY JUST BEFORE THE RAFAH OFFENSIVE TO THE BEGINNING OF MAY, TO THE DAY THAT I LEFT JULY 31 HAD NOT COMPLETELY ARRIVED AND THAT'S JUST ONE SHIPMENT AND THAT'S WHY WE WERE CONSTANTLY PATCHING TOGETHER WHAT WE CAN DO.

AND THAT'S TAKING UP YOUR HEADSPACE.

WORKING OUT WHAT DRUG SHOULD BE USED INSTEAD AND SO FORTH.

YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO QUALITY OF CARE FOR EXAMPLE.

>> YOU BRIEFLY MENTIONED ON THE TOLL IT TOOK ON YOU, HOW ARE YOU AFTER THOSE TWO MONTHS?

>> I AM OKAY.

I HAVE BEEN IN MANY WARS.

I THINK GAZA THIS EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME BECAUSE SEEING MY COLLEAGUES GO THROUGH IT AND LIVE IT IN REAL TIME HAS BEEN VERY HARD.

>> DOCTOR THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> WHILE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN WAS QUICK TO CONDEMN UKRAINE'S INCURSION TO ITS TERRITORY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS BEEN ROUNDLY CRITICIZED FOR ITS ACTIONS THROUGHOUT THE WAR.

ONE CRITIC IS THE EXILED JOURNALIST MARCIA WHO IS RECENTLY CONVICTED AND SENTENCED BY A MOSCOW COURT FOR REPORTING ON THE CONFLICT.

SHARE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE TARGETED BY THE KREMLIN AND TO DISCUSS THE RECENT NEW YORK TIMES BEHIND-THE-SCENES ACCOUNT OF THE PRISONER SWAP WITH RUSSIA.

WILL IT ENCOURAGE MOSCOW AS WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING OR BARGAINING CHIPS?

>> THANKS YOU AND THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> OBVIOUSLY A LOT TO TALK ABOUT BUT IF IT'S OKAY I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

LAST MONTH, A RUSSIAN COURT CONVICTED YOU IN ABSENTIA FOR QUOTE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY AND THIS WAS IN AN INTERVIEW WITH THE POPULAR RUSSIAN ONLINE BLOGGER BACK IN 2022.

YOU WERE SENTENCED TO JAIL FOR EIGHT YEARS, BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WHAT IS IT THAT PROVOKED THESE CHARGES.

AND HOW DO YOU INC. ABOUT THAT?

>> SO WHAT PROVOKED THE CHARGES WAS MY REPORTING ON RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES, THE INTERVIEW WITH THE RUSSIAN BLOGGER AND SO THE ACTUAL ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK IN RUSSIAN AND BECAUSE THEY HAD THIS WEIRD LEGALISTIC REGIME OF REPRESSION, ACTUALLY FOLLOW SOME RULES AND ONE OF THEM IS THAT THEY CAN'T PROSECUTE YOU FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN RUSSIAN SO THEY WAITED FOR ME TO TALK LIKE THAT, SO ONE OF AT LEAST 255 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TRIED OR AT LEAST CHARGED UNDER THIS ARTICLE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES MOST OF US ARE CHARGED FOR REPORTING ON THE WAR OR TALKING ABOUT THE WAR.

AND PARTICULARLY TALKING ABOUT WAR CRIMES.

BUT, PROBABLY A MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE, I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE BUT PROBABLY A MAJORITY ARE LIKE ME SENTENCED IN ABSENTIA SO WE ARE ABROAD AND NOT IN PRISON BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN PRISON.

>> TO THAT END, YOU ARE BILINGUAL AND ARE A CLOSE FOLLOWER OF EVENTS IN RUSSIA AND AROUND THE WORLD.

I'M SURE YOU WERE AWARE THAT THIS WAS A POSSIBILITY.

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A VERY COURAGEOUS PERSON ANYWAY.

BUT YOU HAD TO KNOW THAT DOING AN INTERVIEW IN RUSSIAN WOULD EXPOSE YOU TO THESE CHARGES TO EXPOSE YOU TO SOME ADDITIONAL HARASSMENT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN EXPERIENCING.

I WAS WONDERING WHY YOU DECIDED TO DO IT ANYWAY?

WHY DID YOU THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT?

>> LAST I CHECKED, THE INTERVIEW HAD BEEN VIEWED AS 7 MILLION TIMES.

THE KIND OF REACH IN RUSSIAN THAT I CAN'T POSSIBLY HOPE TO HAVE OR IN FACT IN ANY LANGUAGE, RIGHT?

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE READ THE ARTICLE IN THE PAPER VERSION OF THE NEW YORKER.

BUT, I SUSPECT THAT THAT INTERVIEW REACHED MORE PEOPLE WHO I WANT TO HAVE INFORMATION ABOUT RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES , THEN AN ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK .

>> THEY SAY THE NEARLY YEAR- LONG PROSECUTION OF EXILED JOURNALIST MASHA GESSEN CULMINATING IN THEIR CONVICTION AND SENTENCING IS EMBLEMATIC OF RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES EXTREME MEASURES AGAINST INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS AND AUTHORITIES MUST IMMEDIATELY DROP ALL CHARGES AGAINST THEM AND SEES RUSSIA'S TRANSNATIONAL REPRESSION OF CRITICAL VOICES AND CLEARLY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

BUT, I AM WONDERING IF YOU DON'T MIND MY ASKING IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR SAFETY I MEAN YOU DO TRAVEL FOR YOUR WORK AND DO CONTINUE TO OPERATE AS A JOURNALIST BOTH WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE AND I AM WONDERING IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

>> THE TRIAL WAS NOT INTENDED TO PUT ME IN PRISON, THEY KNEW I LIVE IN NEW YORK AND I WORK AT THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS SEND A MESSAGE TO ME AND OTHER JOURNALISTS AND THOSE IN EXILE THAT WE ARE STILL TARGETS.

SO FOR ME, THIS HAS SOME CLEAR LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCES AND SOME BIG ONES, THE CLEAR ONES IS I CAN'T TRAVEL TO MOST OF THE WORLD NOW.

COUNTRIES OF ASIA, AFRICA.

LATIN AMERICA.

A LOT OF THEM EITHER HAVE CLEAR EXTRADITION AGREEMENTS WITH RUSSIA OR AT LEAST PUT YOU AT RISK OF BEING ARRESTED AND POSSIBLY EXTRADITED SO MY WORLD HAS GOTTEN A LOT SMALLER.

AND FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET AN AUSTRALIAN VISA, AUSTRALIANS ARE SOMEHOW CONCERNED THAT I AM A CONVICT.

I'M OBLIGATED TO REPORT THAT I HAVE BEEN CHARGED AND CONVICTED OF A CRIME AND WHOEVER IS LOOKING AT MY APPLICATION PROBABLY ISN'T QUITE AWARE OF THE POLITICAL SITUATION IN RUSSIA.

SO THAT IS SORT OF THE CLEAR STUFF AND THEN THERE IS THE BIG STUFF OF YOU KNOW THE MESSAGE YOU HAVE A TARGET ON YOUR BACK.

I AM ONE OF AT THIS POINT PROBABLY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA WHO HAVE TARGETS ON THEIR BACK.

>> THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE I THINK THAT MAYBE PEOPLE ARE NOT AWARE OF THAT.

WHAT IS THE SCOPE OF PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE LIVING IN OR BASICALLY TARGETED BY THE REGIME?

>> ONE THING, THE ENTIRE RUSSIA INDEPENDENT JOURNALISM COMMUNITY HAS GONE INTO EXILE.

SO THAT'S PROBABLY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE RIGHT THERE.

THERE ARE LARGE OUTLETS LIKE A GREAT INDEPENDENT TELEVISION STATION WHICH IS A LARGE ONLINE OUTLET AND MANY OTHER SMALL OUTLETS THAT ARE DOING INCREDIBLE REPORTING I MEAN WHAT RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS IN EXILE HAVE DONE TO MAKE THEMSELVES STILL RELEVANT AND TO THE RUSSIAN AUDIENCE IN RUSSIA TO A RUSSIAN-SPEAKING AUDIENCE IN UKRAINE.

WHICH IS A HUGELY IMPORTANT AUDIENCE, RIGHT?

HOW HEROICALLY THEY HAVE MANAGED TO REPORT ON THE WAR DESPITE HAVING NO ACCESS TO EITHER RUSSIA OR UKRAINE.

YOU KNOW THESE ARE REALLY EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE AND EXTRAORDINARY MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO WORKING UNDER THE THREAT OF BEING HARASSED, CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA OR KILLED, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN MANY RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS IN EXILE BEING POISONED.

>> SO TO THE QUESTION OF YOUR OWN CONVICTION WILL YOU FIGHT IT, IS THERE ANY MECHANISM TO DO SO?

>> I THINK THEY ARE APPEALING AND EVENTUALLY THEY WANT TO TAKE IT TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT SO FOR THAT, WE HAVE TO EXHAUST ALL DOMESTIC REMEDIES WHICH IS THE ONLY REASON TO ENGAGE WITH THE RUSSIAN LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S NOT A LEGAL SYSTEM.

AND THAT I THINK THAT CAUSES A LOT OF THINGS FOR ME ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN EXILE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU DON'T WANT TO RECOGNIZE THE AUTHORITY OF THE RUSSIAN COURT AND ON THE OTHER HAND YOU NEED TO ENGAGE SO THAT EVENTUALLY YOU CAN HAVE A DECISION OF AN INTERNATIONAL COURT THAT WILL I DO KNOW AT LEAST BE ON PAPER I DON'T KNOW HOW USEFUL IT WILL BE IN ANY SENSE.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE WANTED TO TALK TO YOU OBVIOUSLY IS YOUR OWN WORK BUT ALSO WE ARE SPEAKING SHORTLY AFTER THIS LARGE PRISONER SWAP WAS ACCOMPLISHED INVOLVED A NUMBER OF NATIONS OBVIOUSLY, WHAT IS I AMERICAN AUDIENCE IS EVAN GERSHKOVICH WHO IS A WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER WHO HAD BEEN IN PRISON FOR OVER A YEAR AND A REPORTER FOR RADIO LIBERTY, I JUST HAD TO ASK AND THEY WERE AMONG THE 24 DETAINEES WHO WERE RELEASED WHAT IT HAS BEEN THE LARGEST PRISONER EXCHANGE SINCE THE COLD WAR AND YOU REPORTED ON THIS AND WRITTEN ON THE SWAP FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES AND TRACED SOME OF THE BACK STORY WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THIS BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND OBVIOUSLY THOSE OF US WHO BELIEVE THAT JOURNALISTS SHOULD NOT BE HELD PRISONER FOR DOING THEIR WORK.

WE ARE ALSO DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THESE INDIVIDUALS YOU KNOW AND THE OTHER HAND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THIS INCREASES THE PRICE YOU KNOW, IT MAKES IT MORE ATTRACTIVE TO ARREST AND TO DETAIN JOURNALISTS.

>> THERE IS THE OBVIOUS KIND OF WHAT ONE OF MY INTERVIEWEES CALLED THE MORAL HAZARD VERSUS MORAL IMPERATIVE ARGUMENT.

ORAL IMPERATIVE TO SAVE LIVES, MORAL HAZARD YOU RELEASE A RUSSIAN ASSASSIN THAT ENCOURAGES RUSSIA TO TAKE MORE HOSTAGES.

IF THEY EVER NEED TO GET SOMEBODY RELEASED.

IT ALSO INDIRECTLY ENCOURAGES RUSSIAN ASSASSINATIONS ABROAD.

AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN ORGANIZING THIS WHOLE PRISONER SWAP AND ACTUALLY CONCEIVING OF IT.

WAS CHRIS , THIS GREAT INVESTIGATIVE BULGARIAN BORN REPORTER WHO IS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE HE IS UNDER THREAT BY RUSSIAN ASSASSINS IN EUROPE.

AND HE WAS INITIALLY INSTRUMENTAL IN IDENTIFYING THIS ASSASSIN IN.

AND NOW HE HAS HELPED TO FREE WHICH PUTS A BIGGER TARGET ON CHRISTO'S BACK SO THIS IS INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED.

THERE ARE SIMPLE PARTS OF IT LIKE EVAN GERSHKOVICH OBVIOUSLY WHO WAS HELD HOSTAGE, OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY IS HAPPY THAT HE IS FREE.

THERE ARE MORE COMPLICATED PARTS OF IT LIKE EIGHT RUSSIAN DISSIDENTS WHO DID NOT AT LEAST SOME OF THEM DID NOT WANT TO BE EXCHANGED AND DID NOT WANT TO BE RELEASED.

HAD MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO GO TO PRISON AND RUSHED SEVERAL OF THEM HAVE SAID LOOK, I DID NOT ASK FOR A PARDON AND I DID NOT ASK FOR THIS EXCHANGE, I DID NOT ASK TO BE EXILED FROM MY COUNTRY.

AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

THEY HAVE GAINED FREEDOM AND THEY HAVE LOST THEIR HOME.

THEY ARE NOW WITH THE REST OF US MUCH MORE SAFE, MUCH MORE FREE THAN THEY WERE IN A RUSSIAN PRISON AND ALSO AND FOREVER OUTSIDE.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THIS INCREASES THE VALUE OF RUSSIAN ASSASSINATIONS ABROAD.

WHY SO?

>> WELL HERE I AM GOING TO QUOTE CHRISTO WHO HAS THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS AND HAS WORKED ON A LOT OF SPY CASES.

ONE OF THE GUARANTEES THAT THE RUSSIAN REGIME GIVES ITS SPIES AND ITS ASSASSINS IS THAT THEY WILL BE SAFE AT HOME AFTER THEY DO WHAT THEY ARE SENT TO DO.

FOR THE MOST PART, BECAUSE RUSSIAN ASSASSINS FOR THE MOST PART HAVE NOT BEEN CAUGHT LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, THE FAMOUS ASSASSINATIONS CARRIED OUT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, THE POISONING OF ALEXANDER AND THEN LATER, ANOTHER CHEMICAL WEAPON POISONING IN SALES VARY I BELIEVE, THOSE ASSASSINS HAVE COME BACK TO RUSSIA AND ARE SAFE THERE, PRIVILEGED THERE, ONE OF THEM HOLDS HIGH POLITICAL OFFICE.

RIGHT?

SO THAT IS ALWAYS THE BETA BUT THE ASSASSIN THAT WAS SENTENCED TO LIFE IN GERMANY WAS AN EXCEPTION.

NOW THAT HE IS HOME, ALONG WITH PROBABLY FIVE RUSSIAN SPIES WHO WERE RELEASED AS PART OF THIS SWAP, NOW THAT THEY ARE ALL HOME, RUSSIA CAN SAY OKAY, WE WILL ALWAYS MAKE GOOD ON THIS GUARANTEE, YOU CAN CARRY OUT THESE DANGEROUS MISSIONS AND ARE ARRESTED WE WILL STILL BRING YOU HOME AND YOU WILL STILL LIVE OUT THE REST OF YOUR LIVES IN PRIVILEGE.

>> INTERESTING BECAUSE AT A TRUMP RALLY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID ABOUT THE PRISONER SWAP I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE VLADIMIR PUTIN FOR HAVING MADE YET ANOTHER GREAT DEAL, WE MAKE SOME HORRIBLE DEALS.

IT'S NICE TO SAY WE GOT THEM BACK BUT DOES THAT SET A BAD PRECEDENT, I MEAN LOOK, YOU KNOW TRUMP IS TRUMP BUT, IS THE INSINUATION HERE THAT PUTIN OUTSMARTED AMERICAN OFFICIALS?

OBVIOUSLY THAT WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO SAY BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK TRUMP KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

A BAD-FAITH ACTOR WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

IF YOU HAVE YOU KNOW SOMEBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY RUTHLESS, LIKE PUTIN.

OR LIKE TRUMP WOULD BE IF WE REELECTED HIM.

THEN, THEY WOULD BULLY ANY GOOD FAITH PERSON, ANY PERSON OR ANY SYSTEM THAT VALUES HUMANITY, THAT VALUES HUMAN LIFE TO ANY IDEALIZE THE UNITED STATES AND GERMANY ON ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT I PARTICIPATED IN THE SWAP, BUT AT LEAST PLACING SOME VALUE ON HUMAN LIFE.

AND THE TOTALITARIAN REGIME PLACES NO VALUE ON HUMAN LIFE.

SO OF COURSE THERE WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

>> BUT THEN WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE HERE?

>> THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

>> AMERICAN NEWS ORGANIZATIONS NOT JUST AMERICAN BUT WESTERN NEWS ORGANIZATIONS WHO STILL FEEL THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO TRY TO REPORT OUT OF RUSSIA ARE STILL TRYING TO OPERATE THERE.

YOU KNOW WE WORRY ABOUT OUR COLLEAGUES EVERY DAY BUT WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE?

TO MAKE IT A BLACK HOLE?

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO QUESTIONS, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE FOR A COUNTRY WHOSE CITIZENS HAVE BEEN HOSTAGE?

BUT I THINK THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

YOU HAVE TO TRADE AND NEGOTIATE AND YOU HAVE TO AS MY FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE JILL SIMON TOLD ME FROM MY STORY YOU KNOW YOU ARE ONLY, YOU'RE MORE RURAL OBLIGATION IS TO DO THE BEST POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK THEY PROBABLY DID.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT DOMESTIC POLITICS AND JOY IN SAYING WE ARE NOT GOING BACK.

THIS IS A, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY A SHIFT IN TONE FROM BIDEN'S MESSAGE, BIDEN'S MESSAGE WAS MORE OVER ME AND SAVE DEMOCRACY.

SO WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF THE RACE NOW?

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN NOT JUST A SHIFT IN TONE BUT PERHAPS A SHIFT IN MOMENTUM FOR >> I THINK THERE IS BEEN A SHIFT, I AM EXCITED ABOUT THIS, I THINK WHAT THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN ACTUALLY FOCUSING ON IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY NEED TO BE DOING WHICH IS SHOWING THAT THIS IS THE FUTURE ORIENTED POLITICS.

INSTEAD OF A PAST ORIENTED POLITICS.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT ALL MODERN DAY AUTOCRATS OR ASPIRING AUTOCRATS HAVE A PAST ORIENTED POLITICS, THEY HAVE ALL THIS MESSAGE I WILL TAKE YOU BACK TO THE IMAGINARY PAST.

AND ENGAGING WITH THEM ABOUT THE PAST IS USELESS.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS ENGAGE WITH THE FUTURE.

AND SAY LOOK, WE KNOW YOU ARE ANXIOUS, WE KNOW THESE ARE SCARY TIMES AND WE KNOW THESE ARE TIMES OF ECONOMIC UNCERTAINTY.

AND THE CLIMATE EMERGENCY.

AND GREAT DISPLACEMENT.

IN THE FUTURE CAN BE BETTER.

IT CAN BE BETTER THAN TODAY.

AND SO THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO DREAM OF GOING BACK TO THIS IMAGINARY PAST.

YOU CAN ACTUALLY HEAD INTO THE FUTURE WITH CONFIDENCE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT AND I SAY THIS YOU HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY BOTH ABOUT YOU KNOW, THE SPECIFIC EVENTS IN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

THEY'RE FULL ON INVASION OF UKRAINE BUT ALSO YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THE RISE OF AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

WHICH MANY PEOPLE FOR SOME REASON HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT TO NAME AS SUCH.

UNTIL I WOULD SAY VERY RECENTLY.

WHY DO YOU THINK THESE AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS HAVE BECOME SO PREVALENT AROUND THE WORLD?

BUT WHY DO YOU ALSO THINK WE HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT UNTIL NOW TO NAME IT AS SUCH?

>> SO I THINK THEY ARE PREVALENT BECAUSE THE SITUATION I JUST DESCRIBED A SITUATION OF UNCERTAINTY AND OF TRAIT ANXIETY REALLY THAT'S LIKE THE DOMINANT EMOTION OF OUR DAY.

THE SITUATION IS NOT THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S A WORLDWIDE SITUATION AND MASS DISPLACEMENT AND MASS RUTHLESSNESS WHAT THEY CALLED HOMELESSNESS ON AN UNPRECEDENTED SCALE, RUTHLESSNESS ON AN UNPRECEDENTED DEPTH.

DESCRIBING THE CONDITIONS FOR ITALIAN AREAS HIM IN THE 1930S THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING AROUND THE WORLD NOW.

AND THE REASON WE ARE AFRAID TO NAME IT IS BECAUSE IN ANY GIVEN COUNTRY, THERE IS A KIND OF DRIVE TO NORMALIZE.

WE HAVE EXCEPTIONAL LYSED 20TH- CENTURY TOTALITARIANISM AND WE DON'T WANT TO THINK WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS WHAT HAPPENED THEN.

THE ONLY WAY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS TO COMPARE IT TO THE PAST OF COURSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BUT ALSO THERE ARE KEY AND REALLY FRIGHTENING SIMILARITIES.

>> TOTALITARIANISM HAS ESSENTIALLY BEEN VANQUISHED BEFORE.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT INDICATES THAT THERE IS ANOTHER MOVEMENT THAT THIS MODERN TOTALITARIANISM.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN PANICKED REACTIONS AND REJECTIONS OF THESE AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS.

>> NOW IN A FEW PLACES I THINK IN REALLY INSPIRING WAYS LIKE FRANCE, THE FRENCH ELECTION LOOKS REALLY TERRIFYING.

UNTIL SUDDENLY THE FAR RIGHT WILL STAMPEDE IT.

I THINK WE MAY BE SEEING THIS IN THE UNITED STATES AND I AM VERY OPTIMISTIC OBVIOUSLY THIS WILL HAVE THREE MONTHS TO GO UNTIL THE ELECTION AND ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN.

IT IS STILL A CLOSE CALL, BUT I THINK IT HARRIS AND TIM WALZ CAN REALLY EMBRACE ON THE ONE HAND THIS FUTURE ORIENTED POLITICS AND ON THE OTHER HAND SOMETHING THAT I HAD HEARD IN INTERVIEWS, IS THE KIND OF POLITICS OF CARE.

RIGHT?

I HAVEN'T HEARD THIS IN A LIKE I THINK BIDEN HAS A POLITICS OF EMPATHY AND COMPASSION TIM WALZ IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, HE REALLY TALKS ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE FED.

HAVING PEOPLE TAKEN CARE OF.

THINKING DEEPLY ABOUT PEOPLE'S HOME LIVES AND HOW HE AS A POLITICAL LEADER CAN MAKE THEM BETTER.

LIKE HE IS ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE ANXIETIES, THAT DRIVES PEOPLE TO SUPPORT LEADERS LIKE TRUMP.

AND, I DON'T KNOW HOW EXCITED I AM ABOUT THE WHOLE FREEDOM MESSAGE, IT'S GREAT, FREEDOM IS VERY GOOD BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO THE ANXIETIES BECAUSE I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT LOSING FREEDOM.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT NOT BEING TAKEN CARE OF.

AND I THINK IF TIM WALZ CAN EMBRACE THAT AND IF THAT CAN BECOME PART OF THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK THAT'S PROMISING.

>> MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> FINALLY TONIGHT, A TWO WEEK ANXIETIES A.K.A.

THE PARIS OLYMPICS HAVE ENDED.

WITH A DRAMATIC FIREWORKS SHOW STAR-STUDDED MUSICAL PERFORMANCES AND TOM CRUISE RAPPELLING DOWN FROM THE TOP OF THE MONUMENT.

THAT'S HOW THEY ENDED THEIR PERFECT SUMMER OLYMPICS WHEN I SAW EQUAL NUMBERS OF MALE AND FEMALE ATHLETES FOR THE FIRST TIME TAKING PART, THRILLING AND JADED NATION AND WORLD WITH THEIR DAZZLING ACHIEVEMENT AND SOARING TEAM SPIRIT.

AT THE CLOSING THEY JOIN THOUSANDS OF VOLUNTEERS IN A FLAG-WAVING TRIUMPH OF TOGETHERNESS, PARIS CREATED INDELIBLE MOMENTS OF SPORTSMANSHIP, BUILDING EXCITEMENT FOR THE NEXT SUMMER GAMES IN LOS ANGELES IN 2028.

AND THAT'S IF OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER@PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING LEAR, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND NIKKI STRAUSS.

MARK J, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION COMPUTERS LIKE YOU.