Masha Gessen on Being Convicted in Absentia by Russian Court

>>> WHILE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN WAS QUICK TO CONDEMN UKRAINE'S INCURSION TO ITS TERRITORY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS BEEN ROUNDLY CRITICIZED FOR ITS ACTIONS THROUGHOUT THE WAR.

ONE CRITIC IS THE EXILED JOURNALIST MARCIA WHO IS RECENTLY CONVICTED AND SENTENCED BY A MOSCOW COURT FOR REPORTING ON THE CONFLICT.

SHARE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE TARGETED BY THE KREMLIN AND TO DISCUSS THE RECENT NEW YORK TIMES BEHIND-THE-SCENES ACCOUNT OF THE PRISONER SWAP WITH RUSSIA.

WILL IT ENCOURAGE MOSCOW AS WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING OR BARGAINING CHIPS?

>> THANKS YOU AND THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> OBVIOUSLY A LOT TO TALK ABOUT BUT IF IT'S OKAY I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

LAST MONTH, A RUSSIAN COURT CONVICTED YOU IN ABSENTIA FOR QUOTE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY AND THIS WAS IN AN INTERVIEW WITH THE POPULAR RUSSIAN ONLINE BLOGGER BACK IN 2022.

YOU WERE SENTENCED TO JAIL FOR EIGHT YEARS, BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WHAT IS IT THAT PROVOKED THESE CHARGES.

AND HOW DO YOU INC. ABOUT THAT?

>> SO WHAT PROVOKED THE CHARGES WAS MY REPORTING ON RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES, THE INTERVIEW WITH THE RUSSIAN BLOGGER AND SO THE ACTUAL ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK IN RUSSIAN AND BECAUSE THEY HAD THIS WEIRD LEGALISTIC REGIME OF REPRESSION, ACTUALLY FOLLOW SOME RULES AND ONE OF THEM IS THAT THEY CAN'T PROSECUTE YOU FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN RUSSIAN SO THEY WAITED FOR ME TO TALK LIKE THAT, SO ONE OF AT LEAST 255 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TRIED OR AT LEAST CHARGED UNDER THIS ARTICLE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES MOST OF US ARE CHARGED FOR REPORTING ON THE WAR OR TALKING ABOUT THE WAR.

AND PARTICULARLY TALKING ABOUT WAR CRIMES.

BUT, PROBABLY A MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE, I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE BUT PROBABLY A MAJORITY ARE LIKE ME SENTENCED IN ABSENTIA SO WE ARE ABROAD AND NOT IN PRISON BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN PRISON.

>> TO THAT END, YOU ARE BILINGUAL AND ARE A CLOSE FOLLOWER OF EVENTS IN RUSSIA AND AROUND THE WORLD.

I'M SURE YOU WERE AWARE THAT THIS WAS A POSSIBILITY.

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A VERY COURAGEOUS PERSON ANYWAY.

BUT YOU HAD TO KNOW THAT DOING AN INTERVIEW IN RUSSIAN WOULD EXPOSE YOU TO THESE CHARGES TO EXPOSE YOU TO SOME ADDITIONAL HARASSMENT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN EXPERIENCING.

I WAS WONDERING WHY YOU DECIDED TO DO IT ANYWAY?

WHY DID YOU THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT?

>> LAST I CHECKED, THE INTERVIEW HAD BEEN VIEWED AS 7 MILLION TIMES.

THE KIND OF REACH IN RUSSIAN THAT I CAN'T POSSIBLY HOPE TO HAVE OR IN FACT IN ANY LANGUAGE, RIGHT?

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE READ THE ARTICLE IN THE PAPER VERSION OF THE NEW YORKER.

BUT, I SUSPECT THAT THAT INTERVIEW REACHED MORE PEOPLE WHO I WANT TO HAVE INFORMATION ABOUT RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES , THEN AN ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK .

>> THEY SAY THE NEARLY YEAR- LONG PROSECUTION OF EXILED JOURNALIST MASHA GESSEN CULMINATING IN THEIR CONVICTION AND SENTENCING IS EMBLEMATIC OF RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES EXTREME MEASURES AGAINST INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS AND AUTHORITIES MUST IMMEDIATELY DROP ALL CHARGES AGAINST THEM AND SEES RUSSIA'S TRANSNATIONAL REPRESSION OF CRITICAL VOICES AND CLEARLY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

BUT, I AM WONDERING IF YOU DON'T MIND MY ASKING IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR SAFETY I MEAN YOU DO TRAVEL FOR YOUR WORK AND DO CONTINUE TO OPERATE AS A JOURNALIST BOTH WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE AND I AM WONDERING IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

>> THE TRIAL WAS NOT INTENDED TO PUT ME IN PRISON, THEY KNEW I LIVE IN NEW YORK AND I WORK AT THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS SEND A MESSAGE TO ME AND OTHER JOURNALISTS AND THOSE IN EXILE THAT WE ARE STILL TARGETS.

SO FOR ME, THIS HAS SOME CLEAR LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCES AND SOME BIG ONES, THE CLEAR ONES IS I CAN'T TRAVEL TO MOST OF THE WORLD NOW.

COUNTRIES OF ASIA, AFRICA.

LATIN AMERICA.

A LOT OF THEM EITHER HAVE CLEAR EXTRADITION AGREEMENTS WITH RUSSIA OR AT LEAST PUT YOU AT RISK OF BEING ARRESTED AND POSSIBLY EXTRADITED SO MY WORLD HAS GOTTEN A LOT SMALLER.

AND FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET AN AUSTRALIAN VISA, AUSTRALIANS ARE SOMEHOW CONCERNED THAT I AM A CONVICT.

I'M OBLIGATED TO REPORT THAT I HAVE BEEN CHARGED AND CONVICTED OF A CRIME AND WHOEVER IS LOOKING AT MY APPLICATION PROBABLY ISN'T QUITE AWARE OF THE POLITICAL SITUATION IN RUSSIA.

SO THAT IS SORT OF THE CLEAR STUFF AND THEN THERE IS THE BIG STUFF OF YOU KNOW THE MESSAGE YOU HAVE A TARGET ON YOUR BACK.

I AM ONE OF AT THIS POINT PROBABLY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA WHO HAVE TARGETS ON THEIR BACK.

>> THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE I THINK THAT MAYBE PEOPLE ARE NOT AWARE OF THAT.

WHAT IS THE SCOPE OF PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE LIVING IN OR BASICALLY TARGETED BY THE REGIME?

>> ONE THING, THE ENTIRE RUSSIA INDEPENDENT JOURNALISM COMMUNITY HAS GONE INTO EXILE.

SO THAT'S PROBABLY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE RIGHT THERE.

THERE ARE LARGE OUTLETS LIKE A GREAT INDEPENDENT TELEVISION STATION WHICH IS A LARGE ONLINE OUTLET AND MANY OTHER SMALL OUTLETS THAT ARE DOING INCREDIBLE REPORTING I MEAN WHAT RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS IN EXILE HAVE DONE TO MAKE THEMSELVES STILL RELEVANT AND TO THE RUSSIAN AUDIENCE IN RUSSIA TO A RUSSIAN-SPEAKING AUDIENCE IN UKRAINE.

WHICH IS A HUGELY IMPORTANT AUDIENCE, RIGHT?

HOW HEROICALLY THEY HAVE MANAGED TO REPORT ON THE WAR DESPITE HAVING NO ACCESS TO EITHER RUSSIA OR UKRAINE.

YOU KNOW THESE ARE REALLY EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE AND EXTRAORDINARY MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS AND ALL OF THEM ARE ALSO WORKING UNDER THE THREAT OF BEING HARASSED, CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA OR KILLED, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN MANY RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS IN EXILE BEING POISONED.

>> SO TO THE QUESTION OF YOUR OWN CONVICTION WILL YOU FIGHT IT, IS THERE ANY MECHANISM TO DO SO?

>> I THINK THEY ARE APPEALING AND EVENTUALLY THEY WANT TO TAKE IT TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT SO FOR THAT, WE HAVE TO EXHAUST ALL DOMESTIC REMEDIES WHICH IS THE ONLY REASON TO ENGAGE WITH THE RUSSIAN LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S NOT A LEGAL SYSTEM.

AND THAT I THINK THAT CAUSES A LOT OF THINGS FOR ME ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN EXILE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU DON'T WANT TO RECOGNIZE THE AUTHORITY OF THE RUSSIAN COURT AND ON THE OTHER HAND YOU NEED TO ENGAGE SO THAT EVENTUALLY YOU CAN HAVE A DECISION OF AN INTERNATIONAL COURT THAT WILL I DO KNOW AT LEAST BE ON PAPER I DON'T KNOW HOW USEFUL IT WILL BE IN ANY SENSE.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE WANTED TO TALK TO YOU OBVIOUSLY IS YOUR OWN WORK BUT ALSO WE ARE SPEAKING SHORTLY AFTER THIS LARGE PRISONER SWAP WAS ACCOMPLISHED INVOLVED A NUMBER OF NATIONS OBVIOUSLY, WHAT IS I AMERICAN AUDIENCE IS EVAN GERSHKOVICH WHO IS A WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER WHO HAD BEEN IN PRISON FOR OVER A YEAR AND A REPORTER FOR RADIO LIBERTY, I JUST HAD TO ASK AND THEY WERE AMONG THE 24 DETAINEES WHO WERE RELEASED WHAT IT HAS BEEN THE LARGEST PRISONER EXCHANGE SINCE THE COLD WAR AND YOU REPORTED ON THIS AND WRITTEN ON THE SWAP FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES AND TRACED SOME OF THE BACK STORY WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THIS BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND OBVIOUSLY THOSE OF US WHO BELIEVE THAT JOURNALISTS SHOULD NOT BE HELD PRISONER FOR DOING THEIR WORK.

WE ARE ALSO DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THESE INDIVIDUALS YOU KNOW AND THE OTHER HAND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THIS INCREASES THE PRICE YOU KNOW, IT MAKES IT MORE ATTRACTIVE TO ARREST AND TO DETAIN JOURNALISTS.

>> THERE IS THE OBVIOUS KIND OF WHAT ONE OF MY INTERVIEWEES CALLED THE MORAL HAZARD VERSUS MORAL IMPERATIVE ARGUMENT.

ORAL IMPERATIVE TO SAVE LIVES, MORAL HAZARD YOU RELEASE A RUSSIAN ASSASSIN THAT ENCOURAGES RUSSIA TO TAKE MORE HOSTAGES.

IF THEY EVER NEED TO GET SOMEBODY RELEASED.

IT ALSO INDIRECTLY ENCOURAGES RUSSIAN ASSASSINATIONS ABROAD.

AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN ORGANIZING THIS WHOLE PRISONER SWAP AND ACTUALLY CONCEIVING OF IT.

WAS CHRIS , THIS GREAT INVESTIGATIVE BULGARIAN BORN REPORTER WHO IS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE HE IS UNDER THREAT BY RUSSIAN ASSASSINS IN EUROPE.

AND HE WAS INITIALLY INSTRUMENTAL IN IDENTIFYING THIS ASSASSIN IN.

AND NOW HE HAS HELPED TO FREE WHICH PUTS A BIGGER TARGET ON CHRISTO'S BACK SO THIS IS INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED.

THERE ARE SIMPLE PARTS OF IT LIKE EVAN GERSHKOVICH OBVIOUSLY WHO WAS HELD HOSTAGE, OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY IS HAPPY THAT HE IS FREE.

THERE ARE MORE COMPLICATED PARTS OF IT LIKE EIGHT RUSSIAN DISSIDENTS WHO DID NOT AT LEAST SOME OF THEM DID NOT WANT TO BE EXCHANGED AND DID NOT WANT TO BE RELEASED.

HAD MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO GO TO PRISON AND RUSHED SEVERAL OF THEM HAVE SAID LOOK, I DID NOT ASK FOR A PARDON AND I DID NOT ASK FOR THIS EXCHANGE, I DID NOT ASK TO BE EXILED FROM MY COUNTRY.

AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

THEY HAVE GAINED FREEDOM AND THEY HAVE LOST THEIR HOME.

THEY ARE NOW WITH THE REST OF US MUCH MORE SAFE, MUCH MORE FREE THAN THEY WERE IN A RUSSIAN PRISON AND ALSO AND FOREVER OUTSIDE.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THIS INCREASES THE VALUE OF RUSSIAN ASSASSINATIONS ABROAD.

WHY SO?

>> WELL HERE I AM GOING TO QUOTE CHRISTO WHO HAS THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS AND HAS WORKED ON A LOT OF SPY CASES.

ONE OF THE GUARANTEES THAT THE RUSSIAN REGIME GIVES ITS SPIES AND ITS ASSASSINS IS THAT THEY WILL BE SAFE AT HOME AFTER THEY DO WHAT THEY ARE SENT TO DO.

FOR THE MOST PART, BECAUSE RUSSIAN ASSASSINS FOR THE MOST PART HAVE NOT BEEN CAUGHT LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, THE FAMOUS ASSASSINATIONS CARRIED OUT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, THE POISONING OF ALEXANDER AND THEN LATER, ANOTHER CHEMICAL WEAPON POISONING IN SALES VARY I BELIEVE, THOSE ASSASSINS HAVE COME BACK TO RUSSIA AND ARE SAFE THERE, PRIVILEGED THERE, ONE OF THEM HOLDS HIGH POLITICAL OFFICE.

RIGHT?

SO THAT IS ALWAYS THE BETA BUT THE ASSASSIN THAT WAS SENTENCED TO LIFE IN GERMANY WAS AN EXCEPTION.

NOW THAT HE IS HOME, ALONG WITH PROBABLY FIVE RUSSIAN SPIES WHO WERE RELEASED AS PART OF THIS SWAP, NOW THAT THEY ARE ALL HOME, RUSSIA CAN SAY OKAY, WE WILL ALWAYS MAKE GOOD ON THIS GUARANTEE, YOU CAN CARRY OUT THESE DANGEROUS MISSIONS AND ARE ARRESTED WE WILL STILL BRING YOU HOME AND YOU WILL STILL LIVE OUT THE REST OF YOUR LIVES IN PRIVILEGE.

>> INTERESTING BECAUSE AT A TRUMP RALLY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID ABOUT THE PRISONER SWAP I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE VLADIMIR PUTIN FOR HAVING MADE YET ANOTHER GREAT DEAL, WE MAKE SOME HORRIBLE DEALS.

IT'S NICE TO SAY WE GOT THEM BACK BUT DOES THAT SET A BAD PRECEDENT, I MEAN LOOK, YOU KNOW TRUMP IS TRUMP BUT, IS THE INSINUATION HERE THAT PUTIN OUTSMARTED AMERICAN OFFICIALS?

OBVIOUSLY THAT WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO SAY BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK TRUMP KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

A BAD-FAITH ACTOR WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

IF YOU HAVE YOU KNOW SOMEBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY RUTHLESS, LIKE PUTIN.

OR LIKE TRUMP WOULD BE IF WE REELECTED HIM.

THEN, THEY WOULD BULLY ANY GOOD FAITH PERSON, ANY PERSON OR ANY SYSTEM THAT VALUES HUMANITY, THAT VALUES HUMAN LIFE TO ANY IDEALIZE THE UNITED STATES AND GERMANY ON ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT I PARTICIPATED IN THE SWAP, BUT AT LEAST PLACING SOME VALUE ON HUMAN LIFE.

AND THE TOTALITARIAN REGIME PLACES NO VALUE ON HUMAN LIFE.

SO OF COURSE THERE WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

>> BUT THEN WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE HERE?

>> THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

>> AMERICAN NEWS ORGANIZATIONS NOT JUST AMERICAN BUT WESTERN NEWS ORGANIZATIONS WHO STILL FEEL THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO TRY TO REPORT OUT OF RUSSIA ARE STILL TRYING TO OPERATE THERE.

YOU KNOW WE WORRY ABOUT OUR COLLEAGUES EVERY DAY BUT WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE?

TO MAKE IT A BLACK HOLE?

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO QUESTIONS, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE FOR A COUNTRY WHOSE CITIZENS HAVE BEEN HOSTAGE?

BUT I THINK THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

YOU HAVE TO TRADE AND NEGOTIATE AND YOU HAVE TO AS MY FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE JILL SIMON TOLD ME FROM MY STORY YOU KNOW YOU ARE ONLY, YOU'RE MORE RURAL OBLIGATION IS TO DO THE BEST POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK THEY PROBABLY DID.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT DOMESTIC POLITICS AND JOY IN SAYING WE ARE NOT GOING BACK.

THIS IS A, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY A SHIFT IN TONE FROM BIDEN'S MESSAGE, BIDEN'S MESSAGE WAS MORE OVER ME AND SAVE DEMOCRACY.

SO WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF THE RACE NOW?

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN NOT JUST A SHIFT IN TONE BUT PERHAPS A SHIFT IN MOMENTUM FOR >> I THINK THERE IS BEEN A SHIFT, I AM EXCITED ABOUT THIS, I THINK WHAT THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN ACTUALLY FOCUSING ON IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY NEED TO BE DOING WHICH IS SHOWING THAT THIS IS THE FUTURE ORIENTED POLITICS.

INSTEAD OF A PAST ORIENTED POLITICS.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT ALL MODERN DAY AUTOCRATS OR ASPIRING AUTOCRATS HAVE A PAST ORIENTED POLITICS, THEY HAVE ALL THIS MESSAGE I WILL TAKE YOU BACK TO THE IMAGINARY PAST.

AND ENGAGING WITH THEM ABOUT THE PAST IS USELESS.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS ENGAGE WITH THE FUTURE.

AND SAY LOOK, WE KNOW YOU ARE ANXIOUS, WE KNOW THESE ARE SCARY TIMES AND WE KNOW THESE ARE TIMES OF ECONOMIC UNCERTAINTY.

AND THE CLIMATE EMERGENCY.

AND GREAT DISPLACEMENT.

IN THE FUTURE CAN BE BETTER.

IT CAN BE BETTER THAN TODAY.

AND SO THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO DREAM OF GOING BACK TO THIS IMAGINARY PAST.

YOU CAN ACTUALLY HEAD INTO THE FUTURE WITH CONFIDENCE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT AND I SAY THIS YOU HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY BOTH ABOUT YOU KNOW, THE SPECIFIC EVENTS IN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

THEY'RE FULL ON INVASION OF UKRAINE BUT ALSO YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THE RISE OF AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

WHICH MANY PEOPLE FOR SOME REASON HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT TO NAME AS SUCH.

UNTIL I WOULD SAY VERY RECENTLY.

WHY DO YOU THINK THESE AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS HAVE BECOME SO PREVALENT AROUND THE WORLD?

BUT WHY DO YOU ALSO THINK WE HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT UNTIL NOW TO NAME IT AS SUCH?

>> SO I THINK THEY ARE PREVALENT BECAUSE THE SITUATION I JUST DESCRIBED A SITUATION OF UNCERTAINTY AND OF TRAIT ANXIETY REALLY THAT'S LIKE THE DOMINANT EMOTION OF OUR DAY.

THE SITUATION IS NOT THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S A WORLDWIDE SITUATION AND MASS DISPLACEMENT AND MASS RUTHLESSNESS WHAT THEY CALLED HOMELESSNESS ON AN UNPRECEDENTED SCALE, RUTHLESSNESS ON AN UNPRECEDENTED DEPTH.

DESCRIBING THE CONDITIONS FOR ITALIAN AREAS HIM IN THE 1930S THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING AROUND THE WORLD NOW.

AND THE REASON WE ARE AFRAID TO NAME IT IS BECAUSE IN ANY GIVEN COUNTRY, THERE IS A KIND OF DRIVE TO NORMALIZE.

WE HAVE EXCEPTIONAL LYSED 20TH- CENTURY TOTALITARIANISM AND WE DON'T WANT TO THINK WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS WHAT HAPPENED THEN.

THE ONLY WAY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS TO COMPARE IT TO THE PAST OF COURSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BUT ALSO THERE ARE KEY AND REALLY FRIGHTENING SIMILARITIES.

>> TOTALITARIANISM HAS ESSENTIALLY BEEN VANQUISHED BEFORE.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT INDICATES THAT THERE IS ANOTHER MOVEMENT THAT THIS MODERN TOTALITARIANISM.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN PANICKED REACTIONS AND REJECTIONS OF THESE AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS.

>> NOW IN A FEW PLACES I THINK IN REALLY INSPIRING WAYS LIKE FRANCE, THE FRENCH ELECTION LOOKS REALLY TERRIFYING.

UNTIL SUDDENLY THE FAR RIGHT WILL STAMPEDE IT.

I THINK WE MAY BE SEEING THIS IN THE UNITED STATES AND I AM VERY OPTIMISTIC OBVIOUSLY THIS WILL HAVE THREE MONTHS TO GO UNTIL THE ELECTION AND ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN.

IT IS STILL A CLOSE CALL, BUT I THINK IT HARRIS AND TIM WALZ CAN REALLY EMBRACE ON THE ONE HAND THIS FUTURE ORIENTED POLITICS AND ON THE OTHER HAND SOMETHING THAT I HAD HEARD IN INTERVIEWS, IS THE KIND OF POLITICS OF CARE.

RIGHT?

I HAVEN'T HEARD THIS IN A LIKE I THINK BIDEN HAS A POLITICS OF EMPATHY AND COMPASSION TIM WALZ IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, HE REALLY TALKS ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE FED.

HAVING PEOPLE TAKEN CARE OF.

THINKING DEEPLY ABOUT PEOPLE'S HOME LIVES AND HOW HE AS A POLITICAL LEADER CAN MAKE THEM BETTER.

LIKE HE IS ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE ANXIETIES, THAT DRIVES PEOPLE TO SUPPORT LEADERS LIKE TRUMP.

AND, I DON'T KNOW HOW EXCITED I AM ABOUT THE WHOLE FREEDOM MESSAGE, IT'S GREAT, FREEDOM IS VERY GOOD BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO THE ANXIETIES BECAUSE I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT LOSING FREEDOM.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT NOT BEING TAKEN CARE OF.

AND I THINK IF TIM WALZ CAN EMBRACE THAT AND IF THAT CAN BECOME PART OF THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK THAT'S PROMISING.

>> MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.