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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE REGIME IS AT ITS WEAKEST POSITION EVER.

THEY HAVE LOST TOTAL LEGITIMACY.

>> WHAT NEXT FOR VENEZUELA?

MADURO CRACKS DOWN AMID ACCUSATIONS OF STEALING THE LATEST ELECTION.

I REACH THE OPPOSITION LEADER MARIA CORINA MACHADO IN HIDING.

>>> THEN THE SPECTER OF FULL-BLOWN REGIONAL WAR HOVERS OVER THE MIDDLE EAST.

A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS COULD SPREAD CALM, BUT WILL IT HAPPEN?

AND WHO'S STANDING IN THE WAY?

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THE ANTI-TRUST LAW DOES NOT ONLY DO APPLY BUT GOOGLE ENGAGED IN CONDUCT TO BREAK THE ANTI-TRUST LAW.

>> THE UNITED STATES VERSUS GOOGLE.

ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL JONATHAN KANTER TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT ONE OF THE BIGGEST TECH TRIALS IN DECADES.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE RAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DEMOCRACY IS PUTTING UP A STRONG FIGHT IN VENEZUELA, BUT ITS SITTING STRONG MAN NICOLAS MADURO IS CRACKING DOWN HARD.

A BRUTAL OPERATION CALLED KNOCK KNOCK IS HAS ROUNDED UP AS MANY AS 2,000 POLITICIANS AND ACTIVISTS AND MORE THAN 20 HAVE BEEN KILLED ACCORDING TO THE OPPOSITION.

JUST WEEKS AFTER HE DECLARED HIMSELF THE VICTOR OF AN ELECTION THAT'S WIDELY BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN STOLEN.

VENEZUELANS ARE STILL PROTESTING AGAINST MADURO'S REIGN.

SHE BACKED A COMPROMISED CANDIDATE WHO RALLIED VOTERS AND WAS DECLARED THE WINNER BY MANY ELECTION VOTERS.

THE STORY HOW A MOBILIZED FORCE OF DEMOCRACY WORKERS MANAGED TO COLLECT EVIDENCE THAT HER PARTY HAD WON FAR MORE VOTES THAN MADURO IS EXTRAORDINARY.

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO MACHADO FROM VENEZUELA.

AND FOR SAFETY REASONS WE ARE NOT ABLE TO SAY EXACTLY WHERE.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> NOW, YOU ARE ONE VERY BRAVE WOMAN.

WE'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT SAYING WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM BECAUSE YOU ARE IN HIDING.

YOU ARE IN VENEZUELA.

AT THE TIME WHEN THE -- THE PRESIDENT IS REALLY GOING FULL BLAST ON ARRESTING DISSIDENTS, OPERATION KNOCK KNOCK COMING FOR THEM.

I ASSUME YOU'RE ONE OF THE VICTIMS OR ONE OF THE TARGETS.

ARE YOU NOT AFRAID?

>> WELL, AT THIS POINT, CHRISTIANE, EVERYONE IS AFRAID OF LOSING OUR FREEDOM OR OUR LIVES.

BUT ABOVE ALL, WE ARE COMMITTED TO MAKE THE TRUTH PREVAIL, AND POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY EXPRESSED AND OUR VOTES BE RESPECTED AND APHASIFUL TRANSFER TO DEMOCRACY ORDERLY SO OUR KIDS CAN COME BACK HOME.

>> LET'S START A LITTLE BIT OF THE BEGINNING.

IT'S CLEAR FROM EVERYTHING WE READ THAT THE MADURO REGIME WAS ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THEY WERE GOING TO WIN AND ARE EVEN COMPLAINING THAT, HANG ON, WE WERE BETRAYED BECAUSE THE POOR PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT NEIGHBORHOODS, OUR USUAL SUPPORTERS BETRAYED US.

THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO VOTE FOR US.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE LAST MINUTE?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT HAPPENED STARTED MONTHS AGO.

A SOCIAL MOVEMENT WITH VERY, VERY BIG ROOTS STARTED EMERGING.

IT HAS ITS MOMENTS.

IT'S A MOVEMENT FOR REDEMPTION AND LIBERATION IN WHICH WOMEN, MOTHERS ARE IN THE FIRST LINE.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO DEMOLISH ALL THE BARRIERS THAT THE REGIME HAD CREATED AMONG VENEZUELANS IN EVERY SINGLE IDEA, BLACK AND WHITE, RICH AND POOR, LEFT AND RIGHT.

AND WE MANAGED TO COME TOGETHER AROUND COMMON VALUES, THE FAMILY, OUR DIGNITY, OUR FREEDOM, JUSTICE.

THE FACT THAT WE WANT OUR KIDS BACK HOME, AS I SAID BEFORE.

THIS IS -- I WOULD SAY THIS IS THE CENTER DESIRE THAT UNITES VENEZUELANS TOGETHER TODAY.

SO THE REGIME LOST TOTAL TOUCH WITH REALITY, AND THEY LOST THEIR SOCIAL BASE.

AND WE CAME OVER WITH MOVEMENT, WITH NO RESOURCES, TOTALLY CENSORED, PERSECUTED OUR TOP CAMPAIGN MANAGERS ARE EITHER IN PRISON OR TAKEN ASYLUM IN AN EMBASSY.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO -- TO GET THIS EPIC JOURNEY TAKE PLACE.

AND THAT DAY MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS ON JULY 28th CAME OUT COURAGEOUSLY.

AND OVER A MILLION OF THEM HAD A SPECIFIC TASK TO DEFEND THE VOTE, AND IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

>> IT'S CERTAINLY EXTRAORDINARY AND CERTAINLY AS I SAID CAUGHT ALL THEM OFF-GUARD.

LET'S JUST CLARIFY BECAUSE YOU ARE THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, BUT THEY BANNED YOU FROM RUNNING.

THEREFORE YOU BACKED A DIFFERENT CANDIDATE.

YOU BACKED EDMUNDO GONZALEZ.

AND WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, I BELIEVE, IS TRAIN AN ARMY OF VOLUNTEERS TO ACTUALLY GO OUT, FIND THE TALLIES, THE ACTUAL VOTE TALLIES TO SHOW THE ACTUAL TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED.

DESCRIBE THAT OPERATION FOR ME.

BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW THE MADURO REGIME, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS ACCUSING YOU ALL OF LYING AND OF HAVING, YOU KNOW, FALSIFIED THOSE RESULTS.

>> WELL, THE FACT IS THAT WE HAVE TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE -- PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE.

MADURO HAS PUT IN PLACE SHAM ELECTIONS FOR DECADES, DOZENS OF THEM.

SO WE DECIDED THIS TIME WAS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.

WE WOULD HAVE THE PROOF OF OUR VICTORY, SO WE STARTED OVER A YEAR AGO IDENTIFYING PEOPLE, TRAINING THEM, GIVING THEM, YOU KNOW, INSPIRATION AND INCREASING THE WILL TO FIGHT SO THAT WE COULD BE IN EVERY SINGLE CALLING CENTER.

THERE ARE 15,797 OF THEM.

AND EVERY SINGLE POLL -- OVER 30,000.

WE TRAIN THEM.

WE WORK WITH EVERY PARTY, CIVIL SOCIETY, VOLUNTEERS, AND WE MANAGE TO HAVE PEOPLE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

NOT ONLY INSIDE AS POLL MONITORS OR WITNESSES BUT ACTUALLY TO HAVE GROUPS OF CITIZENS, VOLUNTEERS AROUND THE CENTER PROTECTING THEM, BRINGING THEM FOOD OR WATER OR COFFEE.

AND IT WAS, YOU KNOW, INCREDIBLE JOURNEY.

WE STARTED MONITORING THE PROCESS IN THE MORNING.

WE REALIZED THAT THERE WERE THREATS TO TAKE OUR MONITORS OUT, SO WE HAD THE COMMUNITIES PUSH FOR THEM TO GET BACK IN, AND SO THEY DID.

AND AT THE END OF THE DAY AT 6:00 WHEN THE STATIONS START TO CLOSE, WE STARTED RECEIVING INFORMATION THROUGH AN APPLICATION, AN APP.

AN APP THAT READ THE QR CODES, THE TALLY SHEETS THAT WERE SO WE HAD THE RIGHT BY LAW TO GET AN COPY THAT IS AN ORIGINAL COPY, AN ORIGINAL DOCUMENT FROM EVERY SINGLE ELECTORAL MACHINE.

AND SO WE DID.

MANY OF OUR VOLUNTEERS WERE PERSECUTED, BUT WE HAD THE SUPPORT AND COOPERATION OF MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES THAT WERE PROTECTING THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.

SO WE WERE ABLE TO GATHER THEM TO TAKE THEM TO SAFE PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THEY WERE SCANNED, DIGITALIZED, AND PUT INTO A WEB PAGE.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS EVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY -- >> IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY.

I MEAN THE STORY THAT YOU TELL, THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO REDEEM AND PUBLISH IS, AS YOU SAY, IT'S THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED, AND IT TELLS THE STORY IN BLACK AND WHITE.

I WANT TO JUST PLAY FOR YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

AND I WANT TO GO BACK TO AN INTERVIEW I DID WITH MADURO BACK IN CARACAS IN 2014 ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

HERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF THAT CONVERSATION.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT FORFEITING YOUR DEMOCRATIC LEGITIMACY?

>> Translator: MY CONCERN IS DEMOCRATIC.

THESE ACCUSATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE FOR 15 YEARS AND CRASH AGAINST THE REALITY.

TELL ME THE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH 19 ELECTIONS IN 15 YEARS.

>> YOU WON YOUR ELECTION BUT IT'S NOT JUST ELECTIONS.

I'M TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN GOVERNANCE, OF THE ACCUMULATION OF POWER AFTER ELECTION.

>> Translator: WELL, IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE ELECTIONS.

>> OF COURSE.

BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT WHAT TO DO AFTER -- >> Translator: WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY STRENGTHENED AT ALL LEVELS.

>> SO THAT WAS TEN YEARS AGO, AND IT APPEARS THAT HE'S SAYING THE SAME STUFF, THAT WE ARE THE PROTECTORS OF DEMOCRACY.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN NEXT?

IS THERE ANY NEGOTIATION?

IS THERE ANY WAY THAT YOU SEE AS A TRANSITION OUT OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE A STALEMATE RIGHT NOW WITH A VIOLENT CRACKDOWN?

>> YES, I WOULD SAY THAT TODAY IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT MOMENT FROM THEN.

THE REGIME IS AT ITS WEAKEST POSITION EVER.

THEY HAVE LOST TOTAL LEGITIMACY.

AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS A CAMPAIGN OF TERROR, PERSECUTION.

I MEAN EVEN LAST -- YESTERDAY, THE FACT FINDING MISSION FROM THE UNITED NATIONS ANNOUNCED THERE ARE PATTERNS OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN WHAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT NOW OVER 2,000 PEOPLE DETAINED, 24 KILLED.

SO THEY'RE GOING AGAINST OUR PEOPLE, WHICH ARE RIGHT NOW IN HIDING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

BUT HE'S LOSING MORE AND MORE SUPPORT AND GETTING MORE AND MORE ISOLATED AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE NOW HAVE THE LEGITIMACY BECAUSE WE WANT, AND THE WORLD CAN RECOGNIZE THIS, THAT WE HAVE WON.

SO MADURO I THINK RIGHT NOW IS NOT READING CORRECTLY HIS OWN ACTIONS.

WE ARE CERTAINLY WILLING TO MOVE AHEAD INTO A NEGOTIATION PROCESS IN WHICH WE ARE WILLING TO GIVE MADURO AND THE REGIME THE GUARANTEES SO THAT THINGS CAN MOVE SMOOTHLY, ORDERLY, AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

>> WHAT GUARANTEE?

WHAT GUARANTEE?

>> WELL, THERE IS A WIDE OPTION FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND WE CERTAINLY DON'T THINK WE SHOULD GET INTO DETAILS BEFORE NEGOTIATION STARTS.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE ARE CERTAINLY WILLING TO DO IT.

WE WILL START AT FIRST POINT WITH THE RECOGNITION OF POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY EXPRESSED ON JULY 28th.

AND WE CERTAINLY ARE WILLING TO CALL FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY TO COME TOGETHER IN REBUILDING VENEZUELA AND STOPPING MIGRATION.

ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION AND HIGHLIGHT, CHRISTIANE, JUST BETWEEN JULY 28th AND AUGUST 5th, MIGRATION THROUGH BRAZIL INCREASED SEVEN TIMES.

SEVEN TIMES.

SO WE NEED TO STOP THIS.

AND THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DO THAT IS GIVE A FUTURE OF PROSPERITY AND FREEDOM FOR OUR KIDS IN THE COUNTRY, AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW.

>> I MEAN, WOULD -- I KNOW YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO DETAILS, BUT IS AMNESTY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD OFFER, PUT ON THE TABLE?

>> I THINK IT'S TOO EARLY TO GET INTO DETAILS.

>> OKAY.

SO HERE'S THE OTHER QUESTION THEN.

YOU HAVE SAID SINCE THE ELECTION THE REGIME COULD NEVER HAVE IMAGINED THAT OUR MOVEMENT WOULD GROW IN NUMBERS AND SLOWLY TAKE OVER THE ENTIRE VOTING BASE.

THE POOR AND RURAL PEOPLE WHO FUELED HUGO SHAV EZ'S METEORIC RISE ARE NOW DISILLUSIONED AND HAVE TAKEN CONTROL OF THEIR FUTURE.

SO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IS ENOUGH PRESSURE THAT WOULD CAUSE HIM TO ACTUALLY ENTER NEGOTIATIONS, OR AS YOU SAID HE HAS THE MILITARY.

THEY HAVE DECLARED THEMSELVES LOYAL TO HIM.

HE HAS CUBAN INTELLIGENCE.

HE HAS THE SUPPORT OF OTHER NATIONS WHO YOU JUST MENTIONED.

WHAT IS STRONGER?

WHERE DOES HE PLACE HIS BET?

>> WELL, I THINK, AS I SAID BEFORE, HE'S NOT DOING A CORRECT EVALUATION OF WHERE HE'S STANDING.

HIS SITUATION IS UNSUSTAINABLE.

I MEAN, VENEZUELA WILL FIGHT UNTIL THE END.

AND WE WILL KEEP ON, YOU KNOW, GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER.

WE WILL MAINTAIN PRESSURE IN THE STREETS.

WE'VE CALLED FOR WORLDWIDE MANIFESTATION THIS SATURDAY.

WE EXPECT TO BE IN MORE THAN 100 CITIES AROUND THE WORLD AND MANY -- DOZENS OF CITIES AS WELL.

WE ARE REACHING OUT TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO PRESS MADURO AND TO SHOW HIM THAT THERE IS UNANIMOUSLY POSITION IN THE E.U., IN THE AMERICAS REGARDING THAT HE HAS TO LET GO AND ACCEPT THE TERMS FOR NEGOTIATING A SOLUTION.

HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE?

NOBODY KNOWS.

CHRISTIANE, FOR THE SAKE OF OUR PEOPLE WE ARE WORKING REALLY HARD TO BE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THERE'S NO WAY BACK.

WE WILL NOT GIVE UP.

WE WILL PREVAIL.

AND THIS IS A TOTAL DIFFERENT MOMENT IN WHICH VENEZUELAN SOCIETY IS UNITED AND THE WORLD, THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD IS BEHIND US.

>> AND SO ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE REACTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD, WHETHER IT'S IN LATIN AMERICA WHERE YOU ARE, OR WHETHER IT'S IN EUROPE, THE UNITED STATES?

WHAT ARE YOU ASKING THEM ALL TO DO?

>> WE'RE ASKING THEM TO, FIRST OF ALL, RECOGNIZE WHAT THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE DID.

RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH.

MAKE POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY BE RESPECTED, AND THEREFORE RECOGNIZE EDMUNDO GONZALEZ AS PRESIDENT-ELECT.

WE'RE MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION.

RIGHT NOW WHAT MANY COUNTRIES ARE DOING IS URGING MADURO SO THEY PRESENT THE ACTUAL TALLY SHEETS, THE OFFICIAL NUMBERS.

THE ELECTORAL COUNCIL HASN'T SHOWED ONE NUMBER.

THEY PRESENTED WITH A NAPKIN.

BUT I THINK THAT'S TIME IS GETTING TO AN END.

THEY PROVE WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT HAVE BEEN SCRUTINIZED I HAVE TO SAY BY SCHOLARS, ACADEMICS, DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS, THE CENTER WHICH MADE A VERY CLEAR STATEMENT REGARDING THAT MADURO'S SO-CALLED RESULTS AREN'T TRUE.

SO I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS TO INCREASE THAT PRESSURE, HAS TO INCREASE THE COST OF REPRESSION, CHRISTIANE.

BECAUSE WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW IS HORROR.

IT IS HORROR.

WE'RE SEEING YOUNG PEOPLE ARE TOOK OUT OF THEIR HOUSES.

HOUSES ARE MARKED WITH CROSS AT THEIR DOORS.

JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN DETAINED.

FOUR OF THEM HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF TERRORISM.

THIS IS HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO STOP, AND WE NEED INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY NOT ONLY HELPING US, GIVING INCENTIVES FOR MADURO TO GO AND MAKING HIM UNDERSTAND IT'S GOING TO BE COSTLIER AND COSTLIER AS EVERY DAY GOES BY TO STAY IN POWER SURROUNDED BY THE MILITARY AND EXERCISING VIOLENCE ON INNOCENT PEOPLE.

>> AND FINALLY IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THE UNITED STATES OFFERED INCENTIVES TO GET HIM TO ESSENTIALLY RESPECT THE RULES OF THE ELECTION?

AND, YOU KNOW, AND ACCEPT WHATEVER THE RESULT WAS?

>> WE WILL CERTAINLY NEED THE UNITED STATES ON OUR SIDE FOR INCENTIVES TO BE REAL, IMPORTANT, SIGNIFICANT, AND CREDIBLE THREATS AS WELL.

AND I HAVE TO SAY I'M THANKFUL TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AS WELL AS BOTH PARTIES IN CONGRESS.

VENEZUELA HAS BEEN A BIPARTISAN ISSUE BECAUSE OF ITS CRITICAL IMPORTANCE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE U.S. AND FOR THE SECURITY OF THE HEMISPHERE.

SO I EXPECT THIS TO KEEP GOING IN THIS SENSE BUT TO GET MORE AND MORE SUPPORT AND THE AMERICAN SOCIETY AND THE WHOLE WORLD UNDERSTANDS HOW CRITICAL IS THIS OPPORTUNITY AND THAT WE HAVE A REAL, REAL OPPORTUNITY TO SOLVE IT PEACEFULLY IN THE SHORT-TERM.

>> MARIA CORINA MACHADO, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

INDEED.

VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NEXT TO THE MIDDLE EAST, WHICH IS ON EDGE, OF COURSE.

EXPECTING A RESPONSE FROM IRAN AFTER ISRAEL'S TWIN ASSASSINATIONS OF HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS LEADERS A FEW WEEKS AGO.

THE ONE THING THAT COULD DIFFUSE SOME OF THIS TENSION, AN ISRAEL/GAZA CEASE-FIRE DEAL.

IN A JOINT STATEMENT AHEAD OF THIS THURSDAY'S NEGOTIATIONS, LEADERS OF THE UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, FRANCE, GERMANY, AND ITALY, HAVE URGED THE PARTIES ON.

WE EXPRESSED OUR FULL SUPPORT FOR ONGOING EFFORTS TO DE-ESCALATE TENSIONS AND REACH A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL IN GAZA.

THERE IS NO FURTHER TIME TO LOSE.

ALL PARTIES MUST LIVE UP TO THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES.

NOW, THESE LEADERS ALSO CALLED FOR UNFETTERED DISTRIBUTION OF AID AND DEMANDED IRAN STAND DOWN ITS MILITARY THREATS AGAINST ISRAEL.

BUT ON THE EVE OF THIS ROUND OF TALKS, AN ISRAEL PUBLIC CRITICISM AND EVIDENCE DIRECTED AGAINST PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

THE HA'ARETZ NEWSPAPER SAYS HE'S, QUOTE, SYSTEMATICALLY FOILED HOSTAGE TALKS.

CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND JOINS US NOW FROM HAIFA IN NORTHERN ISRAEL.

JEREMY, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS TIME?

YOU'VE HEARD INTERNATIONAL LEADERS, ISRAEL'S ALLIES URGING EVERYBODY INCLUDING ISRAEL TO GO TO THESE TALKS.

IS THERE A FEELING THEY WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN AND IN GOOD FAITH?

>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY SEEMS LIKE ISRAEL WILL ATTEND THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN ACTUALLY CLOSEOUT THIS AGREEMENT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT QUESTION.

LOOK, I'VE BEEN COVERING THIS WAR OVER THE LAST TEN MONTHS, AND OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME WE'VE SEEN ROUND AFTER ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS.

WE'VE SEEN OPTIMISM THAT A DEAL MIGHT BE CLOSE, AND OTHER TIMES WHEN THAT OPTIMISM HAS ABSOLUTELY COLLAPSED.

AND SO IT IS VERY HARD TO ANTICIPATE EXACTLY WHICH DIRECTION THESE TALKS ARE GOING TO GO IN.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU, THOUGH, IS THAT AN UNPRECEDENTED AMOUNT OF PRESSURE IS BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR CURRENTLY INCLUDING BY THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS THE EGYPTIAN AND QATARI MEDIATORS ON BOTH HAMAS AS WELL AS ON ISRAEL.

AND I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER RECOGNIZES THAT SHOULD A DEAL NOT MATERIALIZE OUT OF THIS, AND SHOULD HE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE TALKS COLLAPSING, THAT THERE'S A VERY REAL POSSIBILITY THAT THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF WILL ACTUALLY PUT THE BLAME SQUARELY ON THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S SHOULDERS SHOULD THEY FEEL THAT HE IS DESERVING OF IT.

WHEREAS, IN THE PAST, THEY HAVE LARGELY SAID THAT THE BALL WAS IN HAMAS' COURT, THAT HAMAS HASN'T COME THROUGH HERE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED THIS WEEK IN ADDITION TO THE PRESSURE YOU'RE HAVING WORKING DELEGATIONS, TECHNICAL TEAMS TRYING TO WORK THROUGH THE DETAILS WITH THE UNITED STATES, EGYPT, AND QATAR TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER WHUFB THEY'VE DESCRIBED AS A BRIDGING PROPOSAL TO PRESENT TO BOTH PARTIES ON THURSDAY AND EFFECTIVELY SAY, LOOK, THIS IS HOW WE MEET IN THE MIDDLE, THIS IS HOW WE GET TO A DEAL.

AND ALSO NOTING THAT THE TIME IS NOW OR NEVER, EFFECTIVELY, TO TRY AND REACH THAT CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT.

>> AND NOW AND NEVER WHY?

BECAUSE THEY KEEP SAYING THAT.

IS IT BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT A CEASE-FIRE DEAL WOULD, IN FACT, LOWER THE HEAT FROM IRAN, SO TO SPEAK?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE REGIONAL TENSIONS ARE PLAYING INTO THAT PRESSURE FOR A DEAL TO HAPPEN NOW.

WE WERE ALREADY WITNESSING THAT PRESSURE STARTING TO COME TO BEAR AS WE APPROACHED THE NUMBER OF NEARLY 40,000 PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA, SO THAT IS ALSO PART OF THE CALCULUS AS WELL.

AS WE'VE WATCHED THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICISM OF ISRAEL RISING AND RISING AND RISING.

BUT THE QUESTION IS AS FAR AS THE REGIONAL TENSIONS, WILL WE EVEN GET TO THESE TALKS ON THURSDAY?

WE HAVE BEEN WATCHING OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS AS THERE ARE GROWING INDICATIONS THAT THAT IRANIAN RETALIATION, WHICH HAS BEEN THREATENED FOR NEARLY TWO WEEKS NOW IN THE WAKE OF THE ASSASSINATION OF ISMAIL HANIYEH, HAMAS' POLITICAL LEADER WHILE HE WAS VISITING THE IRANIAN CAPITAL, WE'VE WATCHED AS U.S. AND ISRAELI ASSESSMENTS INDICATE THAT RETALIATION COULD COME NOW IN THE COMING DAYS.

AND SHOULD IT COME BEFORE THOSE TALKS ACTUALLY MATERIALIZE ON THURSDAY, DEPENDING ON THE SCENARIOS, DEPENDING ON EXACTLY WHAT THAT RETAILIATION IS, DEPENDING ON THE SCOPE AND SCALE OF IT, WHETHER IT ACTUALLY KILLS ANY ISRAELI CIVILIANS OR SOLDIERS AS A RESULT OF IT, IT COULD DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THOSE TALKS ACTUALLY HAPPEN ON THURSDAY.

BECAUSE IF THERE ARE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN PARTICULAR, MAKE MOW MISTAKE THAT THAT WILL SPIRAL THIS REGION FURTHER DOWN THE PATH OF ESCALATION, PERHAPS INTO ALL OUT WAR.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THINGS FAR MORE SERIOUS EVEN THAN A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

>> AND BRIEFLY WHERE YOU ARE IN HAIFA THERE HAVE BEEN THIS WEEKEND REAL DEMONSTRATIONS BY THE ISRAELI HOSTAGE FAMILIES, DEMANDING THAT SOMETHING FINALLY BE DONE TO GET ALL THE REST OF THEM BACK.

GIVE ME A SENSE OF THE PRESSURE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS FACING FROM ISRAELIS THEMSELVES AND PARTICULARLY THESE FAMILIES.

>> I MEAN, JUST LAST WEEK THE HOSTAGE AND MISSING FAMILIES FORUM, WHICH REPRESENTS SO MANY OF THESE HOSTAGE FAMILIES PUT OUT A STATEMENT SAYING THAT NETANYAHU IS THE ONE WHO IS OBSTRUCTING A DEAL.

WE HAVE SEEN MULTIPLE LEAKS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS FROM ISRAEL'S SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT, NOTING THAT THE MOSSAD DIRECTOR, THE SHIN BET DIRECTOR, WHO IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THEM AS WELL, WERE EFFECTIVELY SAYING TO NETANYAHU BEHIND CLOSED DOORS IF YOU DON'T WANT A DEAL JUST TELL US RATHER THAN ADDING THESE 11th HOUR DEMANDS HE HAS BEEN INSERTING INTO THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

NOW, THAT BEING SAID THERE IS A SENSE THERE MAY BE A SHIFT ON THE HORIZON.

OVER THE WEEKEND NETANYAHU'S ALLIES WERE SIGNALING TO OTHER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AS WELL AS TO JOURNALISTS THAT NETANYAHU WAS FINALLY READY FOR A DEAL AND HE WILL MOVE FOR A DEAL REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES THAT IT BRINGS TO BEAR ON HIS RIGHT-WING GUV WERING COALITION.

BUT ULTIMATELY THIS IS QUESTION OF POLITICAL WILL.

DOES NETANYAHU WANT A DEAL?

WILL HE MOVE FORWARD WITH ONE?

AND THE SAME QUESTION CAN BE ASKED OF YAYAH SIMWAR.

BOTH OF THESE MEN NOW HOLD THE CARDS.

IT IS CLEAR THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, BUT IT IS ALSO CLEAR THERE ARE FAR CLOSER THAN THEY'VE EVER BEEN AS FAR AS THE PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE.

THE QUESTION IS CAN THEY CROSS THE LINE AS THIS NEXT ROUND OF TALKS IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON THURSDAY.

CHRISTIANE?

>> INDEED, JEREMY.

AND OF COURSE EVERYBODY IS WATCHING.

FRANKS FOR THAT.

AND FOR MORE ON THE SECURITY PERSPECTIVE RETIRED IDF GENERAL GUY ZUR IS JOINING ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV I BELIEVE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GENERAL, YOU JUST HEARD WHAT JEREMY JUST SAID.

DO YOU THINK NETANYAHU IS READY FOR A DEAL NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK THE SITUATION NOW IN GAZA STRIP IS THAT WE ACHIEVED MOST OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAD TO ACHIEVE ON THE HAMAS.

THE HAMAS IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT SHOULD BE ELIMINATED BECAUSE OF THE ATROCITIES AND CRIMES, BARBARIC CRIMES.

AND ALSO THE SENIORS OF HAMAS SHOULD BE KILLED, ALL OF THEM.

BUT AFTER TEN MONTHS, WE NEED TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

IT'S THE MOST MORAL STEP THAT WE NEED TO DO NOW, AND WE WILL BE ABLE TO ELIMINATE HAMAS IN THE FUTURE.

NOW, THIS IS THE MAIN, MAYBE THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE OF LEADERSHIP -- THE LEADERSHIP TEST OF NETANYAHU.

NETANYAHU NOW BETWEEN HIS POLITICAL CONTINUITY AS HE UNDERSTANDS IT AND THE NEED TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES EVERY DAY LIFE IS SHORTENED.

I HOPE THAT NETANYAHU WILL CHOOSE THE INTERESTS OF ISRAEL, WHICH ARE TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

I'M NOT SURE -- BUT I HOPE THAT WHAT HE WILL CHOOSE.

I BELIEVE IF HE WILL ASK OTHER PARTIES TO KEEP HIM IN REGIME FOR FEW MONTHS IN ORDER TO KEEP ISRAEL REGIME BECAUSE THE EXTREMISTS WILL LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT -- I BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL PUT THEIR FORCE IN ORDER TO KEEP HIM, IN ORDER TO BRING BACK -- >> THAT'S INTERESTING.

THAT'S AN INTERESTING POLITICAL SHIFT BECAUSE MANY COMMENTATORS BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, NETANYAHU IS TOTALLY BEHOLDEN TO THIS FAR-RIGHT GROUP AND THAT THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY NONE OF THIS PROGRESS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HAS HAPPENED.

AS YOU KNOW AND YOU JUST HEARD FROM JEREMY, THE DEMONSTRATIONS CONTINUE BY THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES, AND 115 OF THEM ARE STILL IN GAZA.

IT'S NOT SURE HOW MANY STILL HAVE BEEN KILLED OR DIED.

BUT LISTEN TO ITAY CHEN, AN ADVOCATE FOR THE HOSTAGES.

HIS SON, RUBY, WAS MURDERED, AND HE SPOKE TO WOLF BLITZER THIS WEEKEND.

>> WE ARE OPTIMISTIC BECAUSE WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, BUT WE ARE POSITIVE THIS IS THE TIME, THIS IS THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL WINDOW OF WEALTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN ISRAEL TO GET THIS DONE.

AND WE NEED EVERYBODY -- EVERYBODY FOCUSED TO GET THIS DEAL DONE.

AND I WOULD EVEN URGE THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL THAT CLAIMS HE IS THE BEST NEGOTIATOR, HE KNOWS HOW TO GET A DEAL DONE.

HE KNOWS HOW TO STAND FOR WHAT IS CORRECT FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

I WOULD URGE HIM, MR. NETANYAHU, PLEASE GET ON A PLANE THIS THURSDAY.

WE SEE THE PRIME MINISTER OF QATAR INVOLVED DIRECTLY IN THESE TALKS.

I WOULD URGE HIM GET ON A PLANE, WE WILL BE VERY THANKFUL TO SEE YOU NEGOTIATE AND BRING OUR LOVED ONES BACK HOME AFTER TEN MONTHS OF THIS AGONY.

>> SO YOU WANT NETANYAHU PERSONALLY TO GO TO EITHER CAIRO OR DOHA, QATAR, AND NEGOTIATE ON BEHALF OF ISRAEL?

>> HE IS THE PRIME MINISTER.

HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND HE CLAIMS HE AIMS TO DO THE BEST NEGOTIATION POSSIBLE.

SHOW UP, DO YOUR THING, BRING OUR LOVED ONES BACK HOME.

IT'S ABOUT TIME.

>> SO MAJOR GENERAL, THAT ADVOCATE IS THROWING DOWN THE GAUNTLET AND SAYING PUT UP OR SHUT UP TO HIS OWN PRIME MINISTER.

DO YOU AGREE THAT THEY ARE PURSUING THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF PRESSURE?

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT PRESSURE ON NETANYAHU FROM THE -- FROM THE FAMILIES?

>> YES, I AGREE WITH EVERY WORD THAT HE SAID.

NETANYAHU MUST BRING THIS DEAL AND BRING THE HOSTAGES HOME.

I THINK THAT THE MAJORITY OF ISRAEL AND ALSO SOME EXTREMISTS WANT IT, AND I THINK A MAJORITY OF ISRAEL DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT HE WILL DO IT.

BUT I HOPE THAT HE WILL DO IT.

WE MUST BRING THEM HOME.

IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING NOW OF OUR STRATEGY.

WE HAVE TO DEFINE OUR STRATEGY, AND THIS SHOULD BE THE FIRST PILLAR OF OUR STRATEGY.

THEN, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE STRONGER PROBLEMS OF ISRAEL AND HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AND IRAN.

AND TO START TO DEAL WITH THEM AND DEFINE WHAT OUR STRATEGY IS WITH THIS CHALLENGES.

>> OKAY, SO A FEW QUESTIONS.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE FORMER MAJOR GENERAL IN THE IDF, AND YOU HAVE BEEN TASKED WITH THE SECURITY OF YOUR NATION.

DO YOU THINK IT WAS SMART TO ASSASSINATE ISMAIL HANIYEH WHO WAS ALSO, IF YOU WANT TO DRAW DISTINCTIONS OR MAYBE YOU DON'T BETWEEN THE VARIOUS TYPES OF HAMAS LEADERS, HE WAS AT LEAST A NEGOTIATOR.

WHAT SIGNAL DOES IT SEND THAT YOU KILL THE NEGOTIATOR?

DOES IT MEAN YOU KILL NEGOTIATIONS AS WELL?

>> WELL, I THINK BASICALLY THAT ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE DEAD.

>> FINE.

>> BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT -- FIRST OF ALL, WE DIDN'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS ASSASSINATION.

SO IF ISRAEL DID IT, I THINK ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE DEAD.

BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO DO IT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO PUT AHEAD IN THE FIRST DEGREE THE HOSTAGES.

SO ANYTHING THAT WILL, YOU KNOW, BE SOME PROBLEM WITH BRINGING THE HOSTAGES HOME, WE DON'T NEED TO DO IT.

>> OKAY, SO THE NEXT QUESTION IS YOU HAVE HEARD REPORTS OF YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER HAVING A DIFFERENCE WITH NETANYAHU OVER THE BEST WAY TO CONTINUE THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS.

YOU SAY ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE DEAD.

HE SAYS THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF SO-CALLED TOTAL VICTORY BECAUSE HAMAS ISN'T ABOUT ONE OR TWO LEADERS.

IT'S CONSTANTLY, YOU KNOW, THE HEAD KEEPS GROWING AGAIN AND MULTIPLYING, THE HYDRA, AS SOON AS YOU NEUTRALIZE ONE OR THE OTHER.

AGAIN, WHAT IS TOTAL VICTORY?

IS IT POSSIBLE AS NETANYAHU SAYS?

OR IS IT NOT, AS GALLANT SAYS?

>> THERE ISN'T ANY TOTAL VICTORY ESPECIALLY BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GO TO THE BIDEN SOLUTION TO MAKE SOME COALITION THAT WILL REPLACE THE REGIME OF HAMAS.

SO BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T REPLACE THE REGIME OF HAMAS, HAMAS WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE CONTROLLER IN GAZA STRIP, AND THEY WILL RECRUIT ALL THE TERRORISTS FROM THE USE OF THE GAZA STRIP.

IF WE WANT TO ELIMINATE HAMAS, WE HAVE TO CHANGE THIS REGIME.

BUT WE DIDN'T DO IT IN THIS WAR, SO THERE WILL BE NO PREVAIL, NO TOTAL PREVAIL.

BUT BRINGING BACK THE HOSTAGES AND BE SUFFICIENT WITH WHAT WE GOT UNTIL NOW, AND IN THE NEXT STAGE WITH HAMAS BECAUSE IT WILL START AGAIN, WE WILL ELIMINATE HIM BY CHANGING THIS REGIME.

WITHOUT CHANGING THE REGIME OF HAMAS, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PREVAIL.

>> LET ME ASK BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD BIGGER THREATS THAN HAMAS.

IRAN, YOU SAID, HEZBOLLAH, YOU SAID.

SO LET'S SAY THAT YOU THINK IRAN IS YOUR EXISTENTIAL THREAT.

AS YOU KNOW MANY IN THE SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT IN ISRAEL BELIEVE IT'S THE UNRESOLVED PALESTINIAN SITUATION THAT REMAINS THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT.

BUT PEOPLE LIKE THOMAS FREEDMAN, OTHER FRIENDS OF ISRAEL ARE SAYING THAT IF IT IS IRAN THAT'S THE THREAT, WHY DOESN'T NETANYAHU ACTUALLY AGREE -- LIKE ALL THE OTHER ALLIES HAVE URGED HIM INCLUDING THE ARAB ALLIES WHO HE WANTS TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH -- TO MAKE PROGRESS ON A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

AND BY DOING THAT, THEN YOU GET THE WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO YOU NEED, A BIG COALITION AS YOU SAY, AND THAT WOULD ISOLATE IRAN.

BUT HE REFUSES TO DO THAT.

IN FACT, HE DOES THE OPPOSITE.

>> I THINK THAT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IN ISRAEL, IT'S NOT THE TIME TO DEAL WITH IT BECAUSE IT'S A VERY, VERY BIG DEBATE IN ISRAEL.

AND THE 7th OF OCTOBER MADE LESS AND LESS PEOPLE BELIEVE IT.

BUT STILL, I THINK THE THREAT FROM IRAN AND HEZBOLLAH IT'S NOT THE ONLY -- IT'S NOT THE THREAT ONLY ON ISRAEL.

IT'S EVIL RING OF IRAN AND RUSSIA AND ALL THIS PATH IS A THREAT ON THE WESTERN WORLD, ON THE LIBERAL WORLD.

SO WE CAN MAKE A COALITION WITHOUT PUTTING THE SOLUTION ONLY WITH TWO STATES.

BUT, YES, WE NEED TO SAY THAT IN THE FUTURE WE WILL SPLIT BETWEEN ISRAEL AS A COUNTRY AND THE PALESTINIAN AS AN ENTITY.

WHAT WILL BE THIS ENTITY?

WILL IT BE A STATE, OR WILL IT BE SOME INDEPENDENT ENTITY?

THIS IS FOR LONG-TERM NEGOTIATION.

THEY WON'T PUT THE TWO STATES NOW AS A CONDITION TO GO FORWARD WITH THE COALITION IS PLAYING THE WRONG GAME.

BECAUSE IN ISRAEL THERE IS A BIG REFUSAL FOR THIS SOLUTION, UNFORTUNATELY.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT IT WILL BE THE SOLUTION IN THE END OF THE DAY.

THERE ISN'T ANY OTHER SOLUTION.

BUT IT'S NOT THE TIME AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER TO DEAL WITH IT.

WE CAN TAKE A LIGHTER STEP AHEAD, WHICH SAYS THAT IN THE FUTURE WE WILL FIND THE WAY TO SEPARATE THE COMMUNITY, TO SEPARATE BETWEEN THESE TWO NATIONS.

AND THEN HOW WE DO IT, WE WILL DECIDE IN THE FUTURE.

>> OKAY, IN THE MEANTIME -- >> IT SHOULDN'T BE THE -- >> IN THE MEANTIME -- >> IT SHOULDN'T BE THE CONDITION -- >> YES, YOU'VE MADE YOURSELF CLEAR.

IN THE MEANTIME, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE TOLL THIS IS TAKING ON ISRAEL ITSELF AND ITS MORAL STANDING.

YOU'VE SEEN THE REPORT FROM -- ABOUT RAPE, TORTURE IN ISRAELI MILITARY PRISONS, WHICH HAVE BEEN LEAKED.

PALESTINIANS WITH SERIOUS INJURIES TO THEIR RECTUMS HAVE EXPOSED SOME OF THIS SERIOUS ALLEGED BEHAVIOR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IN A COUNTRY THAT HOLDS ITSELF OUT AS THE MOST MORAL COUNTRY, A DEMOCRACY IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN TO ANY SOLDIERS WHO HAVE BEEN FOUND TO ENGAGE IN THIS TYPE OF TORTURE AND ABUSE?

>> WE HAVE COMMON VALUES WITH THE LIBERAL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

SO EVERY SOLDIER THAT DOES SOMETHING THAT IS NOT LEGAL TO A TERRORIST OR OTHER ENEMY SHOULD BE PUNISHED VERY HARD IN ORDER TO BOLSTER OUR SOLDIERS AND STRENGTHEN THE MORALS OF OUR SOLDIERS.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT IT'S UNBELIEVABLE THAT WE GOT TO THIS PLACE, BUT IT'S STILL A MAJORITY OF EXTREMISTS THAT WE SHOULD TAKE THEM OUT OF OUR SOCIETY.

>> WELL, THAT'S CLEAR.

MAJOR GENERAL GUY ZUR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR TALKING TO US.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO THE WORLD OF BIG TECH.

IN A LANDMARK CASE IN THE UNITED STATES A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS FOUND GOOGLE GUILTY OF U.S. ANTI-TRUST VIOLATIONS.

IT'S A STAGGERING DEFEAT FOR THE TECH COMPANY THAT COULD UPEND DECADES OF DOMINANCE AND POTENTIALLY RESHAPE HOW MILLIONS OF AMERICANS GET THEIR INFORMATION ONLINE.

THE ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL JONATHAN KANTER JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE VERDICT AND WHAT COMES NEXT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND JONATHAN KANTER, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE HERE.

>> YOU HAD A REALLY BIG VICTORY IN YOUR DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ANTI-TRUST CASE AGAINST GOOGLE.

IT'S THE BIGGEST ANTI-TRUST CASE IN AT LEAST 20 YEARS, AND THE JUDGE RULED THIS PAST WEEK THAT GOOGLE IS A MONOPOLIST, AND IT'S ACTED AS ONE TO MAINTAIN ITS MONOPOLY.

BUT LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING ELSE THE JUDGE SAID.

HE SAID IT'S HIRED THOUSANDS OF SKILLED ENGINEERS, INNOVATED CONSISTENTLY, AND MADE SHREWD BUSINESS DECISIONS.

THE RESULT IS THE INDUSTRY'S HIGHEST QUALITY SEARCH ENGINE.

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE?

THEY GOT A MONOPOLY BY BEING THE BEST.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING AFTER THEM FOR?

>> WE WANT COMPANIES NOT JUST TO ATTAIN POWER BY BEING THE BEST, BUT WE WANT THEM TO TRY TO COMPETE AND MAINTAIN THEIR POSITION BY TRYING TO BE THE BEST, NOT ENGAGING IN CONTRACTS OR MONOPOLISTIC BEHAVIOR THAT PREVENTS THEM AND INSULATES THEM FROM COMPETITIVE PRESSURE.

ULTIMATELY, WE BELIEVE THAT ALL COMPANIES WHETHER THEY'RE BIG OR SMALL DO BETTER AND DELIVER MORE FOR THE PUBLIC WHEN THEY HAVE OTHER COMPANIES, COMPETITORS NIPPING AT THE HEELS.

IT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL BASIS FOR OUR MARKET SYSTEM.

IN ORDER TO HAVE A MARKET, YOU NEED COMPETITORS.

AND SO WE WANT COMPETITION DRIVING COMPANIES LIKE DOING AND ALL OTHER COMPANIES TO DO BETTER AND TO DELIVER MORE.

>> SO WHAT DID IT DO THAT WAS ANTI-COMPETITIVE?

>> COURT DECISION DESCRIBES A WHOLE RANGE OF CONDUCT, BUT GENERALLY IT FALLS INTO THE CATEGORY OF PARTNERS TO MAKE GOOGLE THE DESOLUTIONARY DEFAULT.

RATHER THAN SAYING USE US BECAUSE WE'RE THE BEST, WE'RE GOING TO PAY OUR PARTNERS TENS OF BILLIONS DOLLARS A YEAR TO KEEP THEM FROM WORKING WITH RIVALS.

>> TO TRY TO PREVENT COMPETITORS EVEN THOUGH IT GAVE A GOOD AND LESS EXPENSIVE PRODUCT.

>> YEAH, HISTORY HAS A TENDENCY TO RHYME, AND SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE ISSUES THAT CAME UP IN OUR CASE HERE AGAINST GOOGLE, IT RESEMBLES MANY OF THE SAME ISSUES THAT WERE PRESENT IN STANDARD OIL AND MANY OF THE PRESENT ISSUES PRESENT IN U.S. v. MICROSOFT.

SO ULTIMATELY THE MONOPOLY PLAYBOOK IS ONE THAT REPEATS ITSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO ENFORCE THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS WHEN WE SEE THAT PLAY BOOK COME TO FRUITION.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT U.S. v. MICROSOFT ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.

IN PREPARING FOR THIS I TALKED TO JOEL KLEIN WHO HAD YOUR POSITION BACK THEN AND BROUGHT THAT CASE.

AND HE SAID ONE OF MAJOR THINGS THAT MICROSOFT AT THE TIME, BECAUSE THAT'S WHO THEY WERE GOING AFTER, WAS LEVERAGING ITS MONOPOLY IN ONE FIELD, MEANING OPERATING DESKTOP SYSTEMS, TO GET DOMINANCE IN OTHER FIELDS.

IS THAT RELEVANT IN THIS CASE?

>> WELL, THE MICROSOFT DECISION WAS CITED THROUGHOUT THE COURT'S OPINION IN U.S. v. GOOGLE.

AND THAT WAS THE LAST MAJOR, FRANKLY THE LAST MONOPOLIZATION CASE THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BROUGHT FOR FILING U.S. v. GOOGLE.

SO THESE CASES DO NOT COME ALONG VERY OFTEN.

THEY'RE VERY RESOURCE INTENSIVE, AND THEY'RE HISTORIC.

AND SO THE LEGAL PRINCIPLES THAT WERE ESTABLISHED IN MICROSOFT OF COURSE WERE HIGHLY RELEVANT TO THIS CASE.

MANY OF THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS THAT WERE PRESENT IN U.S. v. MICROSOFT WERE ALSO PRESENT IN U.S. v. GOOGLE, IN PARTICULAR THE IMPORTANCE OF NETWORK EFFECTS OR FEEDBACK EFFECTS.

DO THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS APPLY TO THE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY, THE PC, THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY?

AND THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION WAS UNEQUIVOCALLY YES.

SAME KIND OF QUESTIONS CAME UP IN U.S. v. GOOGLE.

DO THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS AND CAN THEY APPLY IN THE WORLD OF THE INTERNET, A WORLD WHERE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES ARE GIVEN TO CONSUMERS FOR FREE IN EXCHANGE FOR ADVERTISING?

THE ANSWER ONCE AGAIN WAS UNEQUIVOCALLY YES.

THE COURT FOUND ANTI-TRUST LAWS NOT ONLY DO APPLY BUT GOOGLE ENGAGED IN CONDUCT TO BREAK THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS.

>> EVER SINCE THE ANTI-TRUST ACTS AND CLAYTON ACTS MORE THAN A CENTURY AGO, THERE HAVE BEEN TWO PRONGS TO ANTI-TRUST THEORY.

ONE IS HARM TO CONSUMERS.

DO THE CONSUMERS GET HARM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO PAY MORE BECAUSE IT'S A MONOPOLY?

BUT THE SECOND IS SOMETHING LIKE HARM TO COMPETITION.

EVEN IF A PRODUCT IS FREE LIKE GOOGLE SEARCH IS FREE AND FOR THAT MATTER MICROSOFT BUNDLES A BROWSER FOR FREE.

IT DOESN'T DIRECTLY HARM CONSUMERS, BUT IT HARMS COMPETITION.

WHY SHOULD THAT BE PART OF ANTI-TRUST LAW?

>> THAT'S THE BASIS OF ANTI-TRUST LAW.

ANTI-TRUST LAW EXISTS TO PROTECT THE COMPETITIVE PROCESS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT COMPETITION, RIVALRY IN OUR ECONOMY ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO DO BETTER, ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO DELIVER MORE, ENCOURAGES LOWER PRICES, MORE INNOVATION, GREATER OUTPUT.

BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO THE DIVERSITY OF VIEWS AND IDEAS.

WHEN WE GET OUR INFORMATION ESPECIALLY ON THE INTERNET, WE WANT TO HAVE A RANGE OF SOURCES OF INFORMATION SO THAT WE CAN BE WELL-INFORMED ELECTORATE AND CITIZENRY.

AND SO THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHY WE HAVE ANTI-TRUST LAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT U.S. v. MICROSOFT WID NOT FOCUS ON HIGHER PRICES.

IT FOCUSED ON HARM TO COMPETITIVE PROCESS BECAUSE THAT IMPEDED INNOVATION.

IT IMPEDED MARKET FORCES FROM DELIVERING BENEFITS AND RESULTS TO THE BROADER ECONOMY.

IT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE HAD HERE IN U.S. v. GOOGLE.

THE ONE EXCEPTION, THOUGH, IS WE DO HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE U.S. v. GOOGLE CASE THAT FOCUSES MORE ON PRICE.

IT'S ADVERTISING.

ONE OF THE KEY MARKETS AT ISSUE IN U.S. v. GOOGLE WAS TEXT-BASED ADVERTISING WHICH YOU GET, PEOPLE BUY ON SURGE.

AND THESE ARE NOT JUST HIGH-PRICED ADVERTISERS.

VIRTUALLY EVERY COMPANY WHETHER IT'S A VIRTUAL STOREFRONT OR THE CORNER STORE IN YOUR LOCAL AREA BUY SEARCH ADS, AND THEY BUY THEM IN LARGE VOLUMES.

AND WHEN THE PRICE OF ADS GO UP, THE PRICES OF THE PRODUCTS BEING ADVERTISED GO UP.

SO THIS IS AN ISSUE GNAT NOT JUST AFFECTS THE INTERNET HIGHWAY, IT AFFECTS OUR MAIN STREETS AS WELL.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT HOW THIS PAVES THE WAY FOR INNOVATION THIS TYPE OF DECISION BY MAKING SURE THAT THERE'S A LOT OF COMPETITION.

WHEN I TALKED TO MY STUDENTS AND THEY ALL WANT TO START BUSINESSES I SAY, OKAY, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF GOOGLE DECIDED TO GO INTO THAT BUSINESS AND CRUSH YOU?

AND THAT IS SOMETIMES WHY WE DON'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF STARTUPS.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE SPECIFICALLY WHY THIS WOULD PAVE THE WAY FOR INNOVATION?

>> YEAH, THERE'S A TERM OF ART CALLED KILL ZONES.

IF YOU TALK TO VENTURE CAPITALISTS THEY'LL TELL YOU IF YOU'RE IN A KILL ZONE, MEANING THAT THE BUSINESS YOU'RE GOING TO GO INTO CAN BE ELBOWED OUT BY A LARGE MONOPOLIST, YOU'RE BETTER OFF INVESTING IN THAT BUSINESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THAT IS NOT HELPFUL TO OUR ECONOMY AND ECONOMIC GROWTH.

WHAT WE WANT IS THE BEST IDEAS, THE BEST INNOVATIONS, THE BEST PRODUCTS AND SERVICES TO COMPETE ON THE MERITS.

>> KIT WALKER, GOOGLE'S PRESIDENT OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS SAID IN THIS DECISION, HE SAID THE DECISION RECOGNIZES GOOGLE OFFERS THE BEST SEARCH ENGINE BUT CONCLUDES WE SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO MAKE IT EASILY AVAILABLE.

IS IT POSSIBLE THIS CASE WILL END UP WITH US GETTING WORSE SEARCH ON THE INTERNET?

>> I BELIEVE THE WORDS OF THE COURT, WHICH IS THE DECISION STANDS FOR THE PRINCIPLE THAT GOOGLE IS A MONOPOLIST AND BEHAVED LIKE ONE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN ITS MONOPOLY.

COMPETITION WHETHER IT'S COMPETITION AMONG SMALL COMPANIES OR COMPETITION AGAINST A VERY LARGE COMPANY, YIELDS BETTER OUTCOMES FOR EVERYONE.

AND THAT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF THE ANTI-TRUST LAW.

THAT'S THE PRINCIPLE EMBEDDED IN THE COURT'S DECISION.

AND WE'RE THRILLED THAT THE COURT AGREED WITH OUR -- OUR ARGUMENTS.

AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO TAKING THIS TO THE NEXT PHASE.

>> AND LAST WEEK'S VERDICT, WHICH GOOGLE SAYS IT'S GOING TO APPEAL, THE JUDGE HASN'T YET RULED AND YOU HAVEN'T YET PRESENTED ON WHAT THE REMEDIES SHOULD BE.

WHAT IS THE REALM OF WHAT THOSE REMEDIES COULD BE?

>> IT'S IMPORTANT WE RESPECT THE PROCESS.

AND SO WITH RESPECT TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE I CAN'T COMMENT ON WHAT WE MIGHT REQUEST OR SUGGEST TO THE COURT.

THERE'S A PROCEEDING THAT WILL -- A PROCESS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE.

IT'LL START IN SEPTEMBER, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO ENGAGING WITH THE COURT.

GENERALLY SPEAKING OUTSIDE OF THIS CASE, THERE ARE -- THERE'S A RICH BODY OF LAW THAT EXPLAINS WHAT WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT IN THE CONTEXT OF REMEDIES, AND U.S. v. MICROSOFT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE WHERE IN THAT CASE THE COURT BOTH AT THE DISTRICT COURT LEVEL AND AT AN APPEALS LEVEL SAID THAT REMEDIES SHOULD BE FORWARD LOOKING IN NATURE IN THE CONTEXT OF ANTI-TRUST CASE INVOLVING TECHNOLOGY.

SO MAKING SURE THE REMEDIES ARE MEANINGFUL, MAKING SURE THE REMEDIES REFLECT THE VIOLATION, WHICH IN THIS CASE IS VIOLATION AND DEALS WITH MONOPOLY AND MAKING SURE THAT REMEDIES REFLECT THE MARKET AS IT EXISTS TODAY AND AS IT WILL EXIST IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE ARE IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES TO KEEP IN MIND IN ANY CASE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW THIS CASE INVOLVED NOT JUST HARM TO CONSUMERS BUT HARM TO THE WHOLE COMPETITIVE PROCESS AND THAT BOTH THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT TO ANTI-TRUST LAW.

BUT LET'S GO BACK IN HISTORY.

ABOUT 40 OR 50 YEARS AGO THERE WAS A MAJOR SHIFT.

CHICAGO SCHOOL, JUSTICE SCALIA, MANY OTHERS SAYING LET'S JUST FOCUS ON PRICE.

IF IT DOESN'T HARM CONSUMERS, NO HARM, NO FOUL.

HAS THIS BEEN A SHIFT RECENTLY WITH YOU AND LINA KHAN AND OTHERS TO GET IT BACK INTO BALANCE WITH BOTH THOSE THINGS CONSIDERED?

>> THE SHIFT IS TO BRING IT BACK INTO LAW.

THE LAW IS QUITE CLEAR AND RECENTLY CONFIRMED WITH THE U.S. SUPREME COURT ANTI-TRUST DOESN'T JUST APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO BUY THINGS.

IT CAN APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO OFFER THEIR LABOR IN THE CONTEXT OF COLLEGE ATHLETES AND A CASE INVOLVING THE NCAA.

THE COURT EXPLAINED ANTI-TRUST VIOLATIONS GEARED AT PEOPLE WHO WORK ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANTI-TRUST VIOLATIONS GEARED AT PEOPLE WHO BUY.

THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS HAVE MAINTAINED THESE PRINCIPLES.

IN FACT, WE BLOCKED A TRANSACTION INVOLVING BOOK PUBLISHERS ON THE BASIS THAT AUTHORS WOULD BE DEPRIVED OF COMPETITION FOR ADVANCES FOR PROFESSIONAL ORIGINAL WORKS OF AUTHORSHIP.

AND SO THESE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES.

ANTI-TRUST, ULTIMATELY, FOCUSES ON COMPETITION.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF RED HERRINGS PUT IN PLACE ABOUT PRICE.

LET BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS, PRICE MATTERS.

ANTI-TRUST CARES A LOT ABOUT THE WELFARE OF CONSUMERS.

IT CARES A LOT ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT COMPETITION CAN DELIVER THE BEST, LOWEST PRICES TO CONSUMERS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE BRING A LOT OF OUR CASES TO FOCUS ON AND THAT WE CARE ABOUT DEEPLY.

IT'S JUST NOT THE ONLY VALUE THAT IS EMBODIED IN THE ANTI-TRUST A LAS.

>> WE LIVE IN A REALLY POLARIZED, PARTISAN AGE AND ALMOST ANY ISSUE IMMEDIATELY THERE'S A SPLIT.

BUT WHAT SURPRISES ME OR IN SOME WAYS PLEASES ME ON THIS ONE IS THIS WAS A CASE THAT WAS ORIGINALLY BROUGHT BY BILL BARR, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY GENERAL.

PEOPLE LIKE J.D.

VANCE HAVE PRAISED YOU AND LINA KHAN FOR DOING THIS.

WHY HAS THIS NOT BECOME A PARTISAN ISSUE?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT IS THERE SOME IDEOLOGICAL DIVIDE HERE ON ANTI-TRUST ENFORCEMENT?

>> BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT RESONATES WITH THE BROADER PUBLIC.

PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE BENEFITS OF A COMPETITIVE ECONOMY BECAUSE A COMPETITIVE ECONOMY RESULTS IN GREATER OPPORTUNITY, WHETHER IT'S A FARMER WHO AIR CARES ABOUT RETURN ON INVESTMENT FOR THEIR CATTLE OR SOMEBODY WHO CARES ABOUT GETTING AFFORDABLE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE OR LOWER PRICES AT THE CHECK-OUT LINE AT YOUR GROCERY STORE.

AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN, PEOPLE WANT OPPORTUNITY, ECONOMIC FREEDOM, AND THEY WANT CHOICE.

AND WHETHER IT'S A CONSERVATIVE OR SOMEONE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POLITICAL CONTINUUM THEY DON'T WANT ANY ONE COMPANY OR ANY ONE IDEOLOGY TELLING THEM WHAT TO THINK, SEE, OR HEAR.

AND I THINK THESE ARE IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES, AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY HAVE GENERATED SO MUCH SUPPORT ACROSS THE POLITICAL CONTINUUM.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THE VALUES OF THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS ARE ABOUT RULE OF LAW.

THE ANTI-TRUST LAWS ARE WRITTEN BY CONGRESS, ENACTED IN 1890, UPDATED MANY TIMES SINCE THEN WITH THE CLAYTON ACT AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS.

AND OUR JOB IS TO ENFORCE THE LAW AS WE FIND IT BASED ON THE FACTS, BASED ON THE LAW AS WE FIND IT.

AND SO IF WE STAY FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE ENGAGING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND DOING IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS WHEN THE FACTS SUPPORT IT, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO FIND WIDESPREAD SUPPORT, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE ENCOUNTERED.

>> IN A RECENT INTERVIEW WITH THE FINANCIAL TIMES, YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT A.I., INTERFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND SAID WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT ARE THE MONOPOLY CHOKE POINTS FOR A.I.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THAT MEANS THAT IN ANY INDUSTRY ESPECIALLY AN INDUSTRY INVOLVING TECHNOLOGY AND FEEDBACK EFFECTS THAT HAS A TRANSFORMATIVE IMPACT ON OUR SOCIETY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE PRESERVING COMPETITIVE PROCESS AND WE'RE DOING SO IN REALTIME.

AND SO WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT A.I.

IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE INTERNET OR THEY TALK ABOUT COMPUTERS.

THEY'RE USING VERY JENNUAL TERMS FOR AN INDUSTRY THAT HAS LOTS OF DIFFERENT COMPONENTS.

SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT A.I.

IT'S NOT A SINGLE TECHNOLOGY, IT'S A CONSTUILATION OF TECHNOLOGIES FROM CHIPS AND HARDWARE TO SOFTWARE LAYERS TO APPLICATION, TO ALL SORTS OF USE CASES AND SCENARIOS.

IT RELIES ON DATA.

YOU HAVE GENERAL DATA BUT YOU ALSO MIGHT HAVE INDUSTRY-SPECIFIC DATA.

YOU MIGHT HAVE HEALTH CARE-BASED A.I.

OR CERTAIN TYPES OF ENTERPRISE BASED A.I.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WE UNDERSTAND THOSE DISTINCTIONS, THE IMPORTANCE OF ALL THOSE DIFFERENT VARIATIONS AND ENSURE THAT EACH ONE OF THEM, EACH MARKET WITHIN THE BROADER UMBRELLA OF A.I.

HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE COMPETITIVE SO THAT INNOVATORS CAN INNOVATE.

>> LET ME PICK ON DATA BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONE YOU USE.

SHOULD GOOGLE HAVE TO SHARE ITS DATA?

SHOULD APPLE HAVE TO SHARE THE DATA ON THE PHONES?

>> WELL, THESE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, RIGHT?

AND SO I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF BROADER QUESTIONS ESPECIALLY AROUND PRIVACY AND OWNERSHIP, WHETHER DATA IS A PUBLIC GOOD.

BUT THE REALITY IN THESE TECHNOLOGY DRIVEN MARKETS ESPECIALLY MARKETS THAT HAVE MACHINE LEARNING IS THAT DATA IS THE OIL.

IT'S THE OIL THAT MAKES THESE BUSINESSES RUN.

THEY LEARN BY DOING LARGE AMOUNTS OF DATA AND NOT JUST LARGE IN TERMS OF WHAT WE MIGHT CONSIDER, YOU KNOW, A BIG BOOK OR A LIBRARY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LIKES OF -- VOLUMES OF DATA THE LIKES OF WHICH WE CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE RUNNING THROUGH SERVERS ARE PLACED ACROSS THE WORLD.

AND SO DATA IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, AND IT IS A FACT THAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND TO DETERMINE HOW THE COMPETITIVE MARKET FUNCTIONS.

SO IF YOU NEED ACCESS TO MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DATA TO COMPETE, THAT IS A MARKET REALITY.

I'M NOT SAYING IT NECESSITIES THE COMPANIES HAVE TO SHARE, SHOULD OR NOT SHARE DATA.

I'M SIMPLY SAYING IT'S A MARKET REALITY WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WHEN UNDERSTANDING HOW COMPETITION WORKS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT HOW SOMETIMES THE MOST MEANINGFUL INTERVENTION IS ONE THAT HAPPENS IN REALTIME.

YOU JUST SAID WE HAVE TO DO THIS RIGHT AWAY.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU -- WHY NOT LET THE MARKET PLAY OUT FOR A WHILE?

NACHKT, GOOGLE COULD HAVE LOST ITS DOMINANCE IN SEARCH BY THE ADVENT OF A.I.

ISN'T IT BETTER TO LET THINGS SETTLE OUT BEFORE WE JUST BARREL IN?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE LESSONS THAT WE'VE LEARNED IS THAT IN TECHNOLOGY MARKETS THAT HAVE MASSIVE NETWORK EFFECTS, MARKETS CAN TIP.

AND WHEN THEY TIP, IT BECOMES EXPONENTIALLY MORE CHALLENGING FOR RIVALS TO COMPETE.

BECAUSE OF THE SCALE, BECAUSE OF THE DATA THAT'S NECESSARY.

AND SO WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IF IT'S NECESSARY AND THE FACTS AND THE LAW SUPPORT IT, THAT A LITTLE BIT OF INTERVENTION EARLY ON WILL HOPEFULLY ELIMINATE THE REGULATION LATER ON.

WE WANT THE COMPETITIVE MARKET ULTIMATELY TO BE THE REGULATOR.

WE WANT COMPETITION.

WE WANT COMPANIES FIGHTING IT OUT TO DELIVER BETTER AND MORE, TO ENCOURAGE AND DELIVER MORE BENEFITS TO ENTIRE SOCIETY.

IF WE HAVE MONOPOLIES, THE THEN WE LOSE THOSE BENEFITS TO COMPETITION AND THEN WE'RE FACED WITH REGULATION OR IN THIS CASE AGAINST GOOGLE AND OTHERS A BACKWARD LOOKING REMEDY THAT TRIES TO ADDRESS 15 YEARS OF ANTI-COMPETITIVE BEHAVIOR.

IT'S MUCH HARDER TO DO THAN IT IS TO ELIMINATE A FEW SMALL IMPEDIMENTS IN REALTIME.

SO I THINK WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IS WHEN IT'S MANDATED AND IT'S APPROPRIATE UNDER THE FACTS AND THE LAW, THEN A LITTLE BIT OF INTERVENTION EARLY ON COULD HOPEFULLY SAVE US FROM UNNECESSARILY INVASIVE REGULATION OR INTERVENTION LATER ON.

>> JONATHAN KANTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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