September 4, 2024

♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

MORE CIVILIAN DEATHS, MORE DESTRUCTION, AS UKRAINE REELS FROM A BLITZ OF RUSSIAN ATTACKS.

WITH THE TOLL ON THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE CONTINUING TO GROW, U.N. RESIDENT COORDINATOR MAT USE SCHMALE JOIN US US FROM KYIV.

>> THROUGH IT ALL, WE JUST CONTINUED TO HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE TRUTH WOULD PRETRAIL.

>>> BRINGING BEN HOME.

FOR 30 YEARS, BEN SPENCER WAS BEHIND BARS FOR A MURDER HE DID NOT COMMIT.

THEN, A JOURNALIST BEGAN DIGGING.

THEY TELL ME THEIR STORY.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THE U.S. IS FACING QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE MAINTAIN OUR LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD.

>> WITH THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION JUST TWO MONTHS AWAY, WALTER ISAACSON TALKS TO BRIAN DEESE, TO GET MORE ON KAMALA HARRIS' POLICY ON THE ONE ISSUE VOTERS CARE ABOUT THE MOST -- THE ECONOMY.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> WELL, THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING A NEVER-ENDING BOMBARDMENT OF RUSSIAN MISSILES AND STRIKES.

TODAY, IT WAS SCHOOLS, CLINICS, AND HOMES DAMAGED WHEN THE WESTERN CITY OF LVIV WAS HIT.

AN ATTACK THAT KILLED AT LEAST SEVEN PEOPLE.

LVIV'S MAYOR POSTING THIS IMAGE, SAYING, THIS MOTHER AND HER THREE DAUGHTERS WERE KILLED IN RUSSIA'S ATTACK.

THEIR FATHER, THE ONLY SURVIVOR.

TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS ARE BEING HEAPED UPON THE COUNTRY, AS RUSSIA'S BLOODY INVASION DRAGS ON.

JUST YESTERDAY, MORE THAN 50 PEOPLE KILLED IN THE BARRAGE.

AND THESE ATTACKS ARE ALSO PAINFUL REMINDERS OF THE CRUCIAL ROLE OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS, THE ONES THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN BEGGING ALLIES FOR.

AS THE COUNTRY REELS, A RAPID GOVERNMENT SHUFFLE IS UNDER PLACE.

TWO CABINET MEMBERS, THE FOREIGN MINISTER, AND STRATEGIC INDUSTRIES MINISTER, HAS TENDERED THEIR RESIGNATION.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT RELIEF EFFORTS, THE UNITED NATIONS RESIDENCE COORDINATOR IN KYIV, MATTIAS SCHMALE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU JUST RETURNED FROM KHARKIV, THAT IS IN THE EAST, THE COUNTRY'S SECOND-LARGEST CITY.

IT CONTINUES TO BE BOMBARDED BY SHELLING.

TELL US WHAT YOU SAW.

>> SO, YESTERDAY, INDEED, I WAS IN KHARKIV, AND IT WAS A PARTICULARLY EMOTIONAL -- EMOTIONALLY INTENSE DAY.

WE STARTED IN THE MORNING, I ACCOMPANIED AN INTERAGENCY CONVOY, AS I CALLED IT, DELIVERING VITAL HYGIENE MATERIALS TO THE FRONT LINE.

AND WHEN WE ARRIVED THERE, WE WERE TOLD THAT THE FRONT LINE IS NOW TWO KILOMETERS AWAY FROM THE TOWN CENTER, SO, WE COULDN'T ACTUALLY GO INTO THE TOWN CENTER, AND THE OFFICIALS I SPOKE TO, WHERE WE DROPPED OFF THESE HYGIENE MATERIALS FOR VULNERABLE PEOPLE WERE QUITE IN A DEPRESSED MOOD.

THEY REALLY, I THINK, WERE PREPARING FOR THE WORST AND LOSING THE CITY AGAIN.

MY UNDERSTAND IS TWO YEARS AGO, IT WAS ACTUALLY DEOCCUPIED, AS THEY SAY HERE, NOW IT LOOKS LIKE IT MAY BE REOCCUPIED.

WHEN WE THEN MOVED TO KHARKIV, I VISITED THE IMPACT SITE OF AN ATTACK BY THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES LAST FRIDAY IN WHICH, IN TOTAL SIX PEOPLE WERE KILLED, FIVE AT THE SITE I SAW, DESTROYED BUILDING, AND THEN A 14-YEAR-OLD GIRL AT ANOTHER SITE, AND WHAT WILL NOT LEAVE ME FOR AWHILE IS, I WAS TOLD, THIS 14-YEAR-OLD GIRL ACTUALLY EVACUATED FROM THE CITY A FEW DAYS EARLIER TO BE IN A SAFER PLACE.

AND IN THAT SAFER PLACE, SHE WAS KILLED.

ON THAT DAY, I ALSO VISITED AN UNDERGROUND SCHOOL IN KHARKIV, AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE SECOND DAY OF THE NEW SCHOOL YEAR, SO, THIS 14-YEAR-OLD GIRL THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN A SAFE PLACE, THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE TO SCHOOL THAT DAY, WAS BEING BURIED THAT DAY.

I THINK THAT REALLY HIGHLIGHTS THE DRAMA THAT IS GOING ON HERE FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE.

AND IF YOU ALLOW THEM TO GO ON, THIS MORNING I ACTUALLY VISITED POLTAVA, THAT YOU MENTIONED, NOW, THERE WERE NO CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, OVER 50 STUDENTS IN A MILITARY ACADEMY WERE KILLED.

I'LL COME BACK TO THAT POINT.

WHAT STRUCK ME THERE IS THAT THE CIVILIAN POPULATION WAS TELLING ME THAT IN ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF, THEY HAD NOT REALLY HEARD AIR SIRENS, SO, IT WAS ONE PLACE FRONT LINE, THAT WAS CONSIDERED SAFE.

NOW, OF COURSE, THEY ARE TRAUMATIZED, BECAUSE THEIR WORRY NOW IS, IS ANYWHERE IN THE UKRAINE SAFE?

SO, WHAT I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT WHEN WE TALK UKRAINE IS NOT JUST THE MATERIAL NEEDS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, IN HUMANITARIAN ACTION FORM, BUT ALSO THE MENTAL -- THE PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPACT THIS HAS ON THE POPULATION.

>> ESPECIALLY ON THESE CHILDREN, AS YOU NOTE, YOU TOOK TO X, YOU WERE CLEARLY SO MOVED EMOTIONALLY ABOUT THE STORY OF THAT 14-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO HAD BEEN EVACUATED, AND THEN ONLY TO SUCCUMB TO A BOMB THERE.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT MORE YOU AND YOUR ORGANIZATION AND THOSE WHO ARE ON THE GROUND CAN DO TO ECHO THE PLEADS FROM GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, FROM THE PRESIDENT ON DOWN, SPECIFICALLY FOR AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS?

BECAUSE, YES, A LOT HAS BEEN BROUGHT IN, FINALLY, AFTER THAT DELAY IN THE SUPPLEMENTAL FROM THE UNITED STATES, AND EUROPE BEFORE THAT.

BUT CLEARLY, MORE, MUCH MORE, IS NEEDED.

>> LOOK, I CANNOT -- I'M NOT A MILITARY EXPERT, SO, I CANNOT COMMENT MUCH ON WHAT THE RIGHT MILITARY STRATEGY IS.

I HAVE A LOT OF SYMPATHY WORKING HERE IN UKRAINE, AS THE U.N.'S HIGHEST RANKING OFFICIAL, FOR THE PLEAS OF GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT TO BE PROPERLY SUPPORTED, ALSO IN MILITARY TERMS, SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES.

WHAT I THINK IN PARALLEL TO THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS TWO THINGS.

ONE IS HUMANITARIAN AID.

I MENTIONED THE FRONT LINE COMMUNITIES, THERE'S SOME VERY VULNERABLE PEOPLE THERE.

I MELT ALSO SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE IN SO-CALLED COLLECTIVE SHELTERS, AND TRANSIT CENTERS, SO, WHO HAVE BEEN EVACUATED, PARTICULARLY FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN.

THEY NEED TO BE SUPPORTED, BOTH IN TRANSIT, AND THEN WHEN THEY END UP, FOR EXAMPLE IN THE WEST, FOR EXAMPLE, IN LVIV.

SO, THERE REMAINS SIGNIFICANT HUMANITARIAN NEEDS.

MY PREDECESSOR DENISE BROWN, WHO HAS BEEN ON THIS SHOW, SAID THE WORST THING WE CAN DO IS TO NORMALIZE THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

SO, THERE'S, AGAIN, THERE IS, OF COURSE, AS YOU ASKED, THE MILITARY ASPECT OF THAT, BUT THERE IS THE HUMANITARIAN ASPECT OF IT.

THIS WAR IS NOT OVER, AND WE NEED TO SUPPORT AND TO ADDRESS THE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS.

AND THEN, IF I MAY SAY SOMETHING A BUILT MORE UPLIFTING, I MENTIONED I VISITED A SCHOOL YESTERDAY IN ONE OF THE METRO STATIONS, UNDERGROUND STATIONS IN KHARKIV.

THEY HAVE A TOTAL OF FIVE OF THOSE OPERATIONAL NOW, AND A SIXTH ONE JUST OPENED, WITH INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, SO WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS IS, WHERE THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO ALSO SUPPORT RECOVERY EFFORTS, WE MUST DO THAT.

I'VE BEEN REALLY STRUCK IN MY MORE THAN A MONTH HERE NOW AT THE RESILIENCE, AS WE CALL IT, OF UKRAINE'S CIVILIAN POPULATION, AND OF GOVERNMENT.

WHENEVER THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY, THEY START REBUILDING, AND TRYING TO INCLUDE AND TRYING TO PROVIDE THEIR CHILDREN WITH SCHOOLING.

AND THAT, I THINK, DESERVES EVERY SUPPORT THAT WE CAN GIVE.

>> NO DOUBT, AS THIS WAR IS NOW 2 1/2 YEARS ONGOING, THE RESILIENCE IS JUST INCREDIBLE BY THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

YOU MENTIONED THE SCHOOLS THERE, THE START TO THE SCHOOL YEAR WAS EARLY THIS WEEK, AS CHILDREN AROUND THE WORLD WENT BACK TO SCHOOL, IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IN WAR ZONES LIKE IN KYIV AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, CHILDREN DON'T HAVE THAT LUXURY OF JUST GOING TO SCHOOL AND NOT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT MISSILES STRIKING THEIR SCHOOL.

IN KHARKIV, UKRAINE, TALKING ABOUT THEIR RESILIENCE, JUST BUILT THEIR FIRST PERMANENT SUB TRAIN YAN SCHOOL.

HOW -- HOW EFFECTIVE IS THIS IN TERMS OF AT LEAST BRINGING SOME SENSE OF NORMALCY DURING WARTIME IN YOUR VIEW?

IS IT FOR CHILDREN -- HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT THEY STILL GET TO GO TO SCHOOL, DESPITE THE DANGERS, THAT ALTERNATIVE MODES OF GETTING THEM THERE AND PROVIING SHELTER IS STILL BEING OFFERED?

>> YEAH.

SOMETHING THAT I FOUND VERY INTERESTING, WHEN I TALKED TO TEACHERS AND SCHOOL OFFICIALS YESTERDAY IN KHARKIV WAS THAT QUITE A FEW CHILDREN JUST BEFORE THE FULL-SCALE INVASION EXPERIENCED COVID, THROUGH WHICH THAT -- AND THROUGH THAT PERIOD, THEY GOT USED TO ONLINE LEARNING, SO, INTERESTINGLY, IN THE SCHOOL I VISITED UNDERGROUND, THERE WERE SOME CHILDREN WHO, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFE, SAW A CLASSROOM, AND WERE SITTING IN A CLASSROOM.

AND I MUST SAY, I WAS REALLY IMPRESSED, WHAT THE CITY OF KHARKIV HAS DONE.

I WAS TELLING THEM, THE CLASSROOMS WERE PAINTED IN LIGHT COLORS, BEAUTIFUL FURNITURE.

I WAS NEVER IN A NICE CLASSROOM LIKE THAT, SO FOR QUITE A FEW OF THE CHILDREN AND THEY'RE PRIORITIZING THE YOUNG CHILDREN, SO, THOSE FIRST GOING TO SCHOOL OR, YOU KNOW, UP TO GRADE SIX, IT IS CLEARLY A WORTHWHILE EXPERIENCE, COMBINED WITH ONLINE LEARNING, SO, I THINK THERE IS -- IT'S INVALUABLE WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO.

NOW, HAVING SAID THAT, OF COURSE THE EDUCATION SPECIALISTS FROM THE U.N. THAT WERE WITH ME WERE SAYING NO CHILD SHOULD GO TO A SCHOOL UNDERGROUND.

AND, YOU KNOW, SHOULD NOT EXPERIENCE, SHOULD NOT HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO GO OUT DURING A BREAK AND EXPERIENCE SUNSHINE OR GOOD WEATHER.

SO, THIS IS A SECOND-BEST SOLUTION.

IT'S A GOOD SOLUTION, IT'S BETTER THAN NOTHING, THE COMBINATION OF ONLINE LEARNING AND UNDERGROUND SCHOOLING, BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED FOR THIS GENERATION OF CHILDREN NOT TO BE COMPLETELY LOST IS FOR THE WAR TO END AND FOR SCHOOLS TO REOPEN ABOVE GROUND.

>> NO DOUBT.

IN THE FINAL MOMENTS THAT WE HAVE, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT CONCERN OF RUSSIA SPECIFICALLY TARGETING UKRAINE'S INFRASTRUCTURE AGAIN, AND THE CONCERN THAT THAT BRINGS WITH IT, ESPECIALLY WITH THE WINTER MONTHS QUICKLY APPROACHING?

>> YEAH, THAT'S CLEARLY A CONCERN.

I'VE EXPERIENCED MYSELF OVER THIS PAST MONTH HERE NOW FLUCTUATIONS IN ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD DAYS IN OUR OFFICE WHERE WE'VE -- THE WHOLE DAY, WE WERE ONLY ABLE TO WORK WITH A GENERATOR.

SO, CLEARLY, THE ENERGY SECTOR SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN TARGETED, AND THERE'S BEEN MASSIVE DESTRUCTION THERE.

I AM TOLD BY MY U.N. DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM COLLEAGUES THAT OVER 12 MILLION HOUSEHOLDS ARE WITHOUT REGULAR ELECTRICITY SUPPLY, AS WELL AS 400,000 BUSINESSES.

SO, WE NEED TO DO TWO THINGS.

ON THE ONE HAND, COLLEAGUES OF MINE IN THE U.N. ARE TRYING TO HELP US HELP THE POPULATION IN PARTICULAR GET THROUGH THE WINTER, GENERATORS ARE BEING SUPPLIED, FUEL IS BEING SUPPLIED.

AND NONFOOD ITEMS, WARM CLOTHING AND SHELTER KITS.

AND IN PARALLEL, AGAIN, DISCUSSIONS HAVE STARTED WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, INCLUDING THE U.N., ON HOW TO REBUILD THE ENERGY SECTOR, AND REBUILD IT IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY WAY.

SO, YOU SEE THE DRAMA, THE WORRY ABOUT, HOW WILL WE GET THROUGH THE WINTER?

BUT YOU'LL ALSO SEE THIS ENORMOUS ENERGY -- EXCUSE THE PUN -- TO REBUILD THE ENERGY SECTOR BEFORE THE WAR IS EVEN OVER.

>> MATTIAS SCHMALE, THANK YOU FOR THE TIME, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM UKRAINE, WHERE YOU CAN GIVE US A REAL FULL PICTURE OF WHAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED THERE, WITH CIVILIANS FOR THE PAST MONTH.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>>> WELL, WE TURN NEXT TO ISRAEL, WHERE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS ADDRESSED FOREIGN MEDIA IN A PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY.

THIS COMES AS HE FACES A WAVE OF CRITICISM AT HOME AND ABROAD OVER HIS HANDLING OF THE CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE RELEASE TALKS.

NOW, A NEW REPORT BY AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER COULD FUEL FURTHER -- COULD FURTHER FUEL THOSE TENSIONS.

THE PAPER REPORTING IT OBTAINED A DOCUMENT SHOWING THE PRIME MINISTER EFFECTIVELY DERAILED A DEAL BACK IN JULY BY INTRODUCING A RAFT OF NEW 11th HOUR DEMANDS.

NIC ROBERTSON JOINS ME WITH THE LATEST FROM TEL AVIV, AND AS WE HEARD THERE, THE PRIME MINISTER DEFIANT, SAYING THAT HE IS NOT MOVING IN TERMS OF HIS INSISTENCE THAT ISRAEL REMAIN ON THE CORRIDOR, EVEN IF THAT MEANS THESE PEACE TALKS, CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE TALKS, DON'T MOVE FORWARD.

HE TOOK SOME QUESTIONS FROM REPORTERS AS WELL, AND IT WAS NOTABLE, NIC, THAT THESE QUESTIONS WERE REALLY FRAMED FROM THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THOSE WHO EITHER STILL HAVE A LOVED ONE HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA, OR SADLY HAD A LOVED ONE RECENTLY MURDERED, AS WELL, LIKE WE SAW OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> YEAH, OUR JEREMY DIAMOND ASKED A VERY POIGNANT QUESTION ABOUT KEITH SEIGLE, JEREMY HAD SPOKEN WITH KEITH'S WIFE SHORTLY BEFORE, AND ASKED HER WHAT QUESTION SHE WOULD ASK THE PRIME MINISTER, AND JEREMY ASKED PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU THAT QUESTION.

QUITE SIMPLY THIS -- WILL KEITH BE COMING HOME DEAD OR ALIVE?

WHAT COMMITMENT CAN YOU GIVE?

AND THE PRIME MINISTER'S COMMITMENT WAS, I'LL BRING HIM HOME.

WHICH THE PRIME MINISTER DID NOT COMMIT TO BRINGING KEITH SEIGLE ALIVE, WHICH, OF COURSE IS WHAT HIS WIFE WOULD HAVE WANTED TO HEAR.

AND WHAT ALL THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES FEAR, BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE PRIME MINISTER IS SACRIFICING THEIR LOVED ONES.

BECAUSE HE INSISTS ON STICKING TO THIS LATE CHANGE PROPOSAL FOR THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR, TO KEEP TROOPS ON THAT BORDER, BECAUSE HE SAYS IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE -- TO HAVE A WAY TO DISRUPT THE TUNNELS THAT HAMAS USES TO BRING WEAPONS INTO GAZA.

HE WAS ASKED A LOT OF TIMES BY REPORTERS IN THE ROOM, WHY THIS HAS ONLY BECOME AN ISSUE THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED NOW?

AND THE PRIME MINISTER GAVE AT VARIOUS TIMES HISTORY LESSONS, ESSENTIALLY, AND POINTED TO INTERNET SEARCHES THAT COULD BE DONE OF HOW MANY TIMES IT TALKED ABOUT THE SOUTHERN BOUNDARY, OR THE SOUTHERN BORDER, OR THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS -- CONTROLLING THIS BORDER CROSSING, EVEN BACK IN 2005, WHEN ARIEL SHARON WAS PRIME MINISTER AND PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAID THAT HE WAS -- DIDN'T SUPPORT THE MOVE TO PULL TROOPS -- PULL EVERYONE OUT OF GAZA WHEN THEY CAME OUT OF GAZA BACK THEN, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO KEEP TROOPS ALONG THE BORDER CONTROLLING THAT BORDER WITH EGYPT.

SO, HE DELVED INTO HISTORY AND CONTINUED TO DEFEND HIS POSITION, QUITE DEFIANTLY AND ROBUSTLY, BUT THIS IS THE PRIME MINISTER, I THINK, THAT THE COUNTRY HAS BECOME FAMILIAR AND THESE LINES ARE FAMILIAR WITH, BECAUSE THEY WERE VERY MUCH THE LINES THE PRIME MINISTER SPOKE IN HEBREW ON MONDAY, WHEN HE GAVE A PRESS CONFERENCE BACK THEN.

IT REALLY FEELS, I THINK, FOR THE FAMILIES THAT THERE IS -- THERE IS NO OPENING WITH THIS PRIME MINISTER TO CHANGE HIS MIND, CHANGE HIS OPINION, SO, WHEN YOU HAVE CORRESPONDENTS OF JEREMY DIAMOND'S STATURE ASKING THE PRIME MINISTER THIS QUESTION, AND THE ONLY ANSWER THAT HE CAN GIVE TO DEAD OR ALIVE IS JUST, I WILL BRING THEM BACK, THAT -- THAT REALLY MUST JUST FEEL SO PAINFUL FOR SO MANY OF THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES RIGHT NOW.

>> CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

AND A LOT OF THE FRUSTRATION ALSO STEMS WITH THE FACT THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS NOT EVEN WILLING TO PUT THE BALL BACK IN HAMAS' COURT.

YOU NEED HAMAS TO SIGN OFF ON IT, AS WELL, AND HE'S NOT EVEN WILLING TO BUDGE ON THAT POINT.

NIC ROBERTSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>>> WELL, NEXT, TO A STORY OF EXTRAORDINARY INJUSTICE, ENDURANCE, AND HOPE.

FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS NOW, BEN SPENCER WAS BEHIND BARS, TIED TO A MURDER THAT HE DID NOT COMMIT.

TURNING DOWN ANY PLEA DEAL, BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO ADMIT TO SOMETHING HE DIDN'T DO.

HE RESEARCHED LAW IN THE PRISON LIBRARY TO BUILD UP EVIDENCE OF JUST HOW FLAWED HIS TRIAL HAD BEEN.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL THE JOURNALIST BARBARA BRADLEY HAGERTY STARTED WRITING ABOUT THE CASE THAT CHANGE ULTIMATELY CAME.

BEN WAS FINALLY RELEASED IN 2021, AND JUST LAST THURSDAY WAS EXONERATED.

I SPOKE TO BEN AND BARBARA AS HER NEW BOOK, "BRINGING BEN HOME," HITS STORES.

BARBARA AND BEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

BEN, LET ME START WITH YOU.

NOW YOU'VE BEEN EXONERATED.

JUST WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT FELT LIKE.

>> IT WAS AN AWESOME DAY, JUST TO FINALLY BE RECOGNIZED AS INNOCENT OF THE CRIME THAT I WAS WRONGFULLY CONVICTED OF.

>> AND THE FACT THAT YOU SPENT ALL THAT TIME IN PRISON, MAINTAINING YOUR INNOCENCE, I WANT TO QUOTE SOMETHING FROM BARBARA'S PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC, WHERE YOU WENT OFF TO INTERVIEW MANY OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS CASE, INCLUDING THE PROSECUTOR AT THE TIME, AND HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

HE SAID, I HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT BEN SPENCER DID IT.

IF BEN SPENCER HAD ADMITTED HIS GUILT 15 YEARS AGO, HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN PAROLED.

THE FACT THAT YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, HE COMES UP AND REFUSES TO ADMIT IT, THAT GIVES ME A LOT OF PAUSE.

HOW DID YOU REMAIN SO COMMITTED TO THE TRUTH?

AND WHAT WAS IT THAT DIDN'T MAKE YOU BREAK, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN PERHAPS LEAVING PRISON SOONER?

>> WELL, TO ME, THE TRUTH IS -- WAS ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS IN TEXAS IS THAT THEY EXPECT FOR YOU TO SHOW REMORSE AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, HAVE REMORSE FOR THE CRIMES FOR WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN CONVICTED, AND I COULDN'T GO IN AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY AND HAVE REMORSE FOR SOMETHING THAT I DID NOT DO.

SO, TRUTH ALWAYS WAS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME, MORE THAN MY FREEDOM.

>> BARBARA, WHAT CONNECTED YOU INITIALLY TO BEN'S STORY?

>> WELL, I GOT INVOLVED IN THIS STORY AROUND 2017, BECAUSE A SOURCE OF MINE FROM NPR, JIM McCLUSKEY, TOLD ME THAT BEN'S CASE WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

JIM McCLUSKEY IS KIND OF THE FATHER OF THE MODERN INNOCENCE MOVEMENT.

HE'S EXONERATED AT THIS POINT SOMETHING LIKE 71 PEOPLE, AND HE REINVESTIGATED BEN'S CASE, GOT A LOT OF EVIDENCE BEFORE A JUDGE, 20 YEARS AFTER THE CONVICTION.

THE JUDGE RULED HE WAS INNOCENT, BUT THE HIGH COURT IN TEXAS DISAGREED, AND THE REASON I GOT INTO THIS CASE, THE REASON THAT IT WAS FASCINATING, BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF WRONGFUL CONVICTION CASES, BUT HERE WAS A CASE WHERE A GUY WAS DECLARED BY A JUDGE INNOCENT, AND YET, THAT WASN'T ENOUGH TO GET HIM OUT OF PRISON.

AND IT MADE ME THINK, OH, MY GOODNESS, DOES INNOCENCE MEAN ANYTHING?

I MEAN, IT JUST SHOWED HOW EASY IT IS TO CONVICT AN INNOCENT PERSON AND ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THEM OUT.

>> AND THAT'S WHAT LED YOU TO START DOING THE WORK AND, QUOTE, AS YOU PUT IT, JUST SHOWING UP.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT PROCESS WAS LIKE, WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH, RETRACING THOSE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS CASE, WHETHER IT WAS WITNESSES, WHETHER IT WAS THE PROSECUTION.

WHAT IS THE JUST SHOW UP ANGLE OF IT MEAN?

>> WELL, I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WORKING ON A CASE THAT IS SO MEANINGFUL WAS ABSOLUTELY A BLAST.

ALONG WITH A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR WHO DONATED HIS TIME, HIS NAME IS DARYL PARKER, THE TWO OF US WENT AROUND DALLAS AND WE JUST BANGED ON DOORS ALL OVER DALLAS, TRYING TO FIND WITNESSES, NEW WITNESSES, TRYING TO FIELD OLD WITNESSES.

AND IN THE END, WE GOT TWO OF THE FOUR WITNESSES, ONE OF THE EYEWITNESSES AND THE JAILHOUSE INFORMANT, BOTH OF THEM REKAPTED ON TAPE.

THE TWO OTHERS, ONE WAS DEAD, THE OTHER WOULDN'T TALK TO US.

SO, TWO OUT OF FOUR RECANTED, AND WE FOUND A NEW ALIBI WITNESS WHO WAS WITH BEN AT THE EXACT TIME THAT JEFFREY YOUNG WAS BEING KILLED, ASSAULTED, MILES AWAY.

AND SO, THIS WAS JUST A PROCESS OF GOING DOOR-TO-DOOR, JUST -- I'LL TELL YOU, IT'S 30 YEARS AFTER THE CRIME, WHEN WEER WITH DOING THIS, AND YET, YOU JUST SHOW UP, AND IT'S AMAZING WHAT YOU FIND.

AND WE FOUND A LOT OF PROOF OF HIS INNOCENCE.

>> BEN, WHEN YOU HEAR THIS, WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND?

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE THAT COULD HAVE EXONERATED YOU AT THE TIME?

>> WELL, THROUGH IT ALL, I JUST CONTINUED TO HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE TRUTH WOULD EVENTUALLY PREVAIL IN THIS MATTER.

IT WAS GREAT TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO WERE -- WHO BELIEVED IN MY INNOCENCE AND WHO WAS REALLY WORKING HARD TO -- TO THAT EXTENT, TO PROVING MY INNOCENCE, SO, I MEAN, IT WAS AWESOME.

>> BEN, THIS IS ALSO A STORY OF LOVE AND RESILIENCE AND LETTING GO.

AS WE NOTED, YOU WERE JUST STARTING YOUR LIFE, 22 YEARS OLD, WORKING AT THE TIME, NEWLY MARRIED TO DEBRA, WHO WAS CARRYING YOUR CHILD.

AND THEN YOUR LIFE FELL APART.

AND THROUGHOUT YOUR YEARS IN PRISON, YOU KEPT WRITING TO DEBRA, AND CONVEYING NOT ONLY YOUR INNOCENCE, BUT YOUR LOVE FOR HER, AND LOVE SO MUCH THAT YOU DECIDED, ULTIMATELY, IT WASN'T FAIR FOR HER, AND IT WAS TIME THAT SHE WENT ON TO LEAD HER OWN LIFE.

I KNOW YOU BROUGHT THE BOOK WITH YOU, AND YOU ARE WILLING TO SHARE SOME OF THE LETTERS, THE PERSONAL LETTERS THAT YOU WROTE TO DEBRA, DO YOU MIND READING FOR US?

>> NOT AT ALL.

ONE OF THE LETTERS WAS, THAT I HAD WRITTEN TO HER SAID, STATED, IN THE EVENT THAT ANYTHING SHOULD HAPPEN TO ME, I DON'T WANT YOU OR B.J.

TO BE CONSUMED WITH HATE OR BITTERNESS.

I DON'T WANT EITHER OF YOU TO DEMAND THAT JUSTICE BE SERVED.

BITTERNESS AND HATRED ARE LIKE A CANCER.

THEY WILL EAT AWAY AT YOU UNTIL THEY DESTROY.

IT'S JUST LIKE MY ACCUSERS.

I DON'T HOLD ANY ILL WILL, ILL FEELINGS TOWARD ANY OF THEM.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE LIED ON ME, BUT I DON'T HATE ANY OF THEM.

VENGEANCE IS MINE, AND I WILL REPAY, SAYS THE LORD.

OFTENTIMES, WE WANT TO PUT OURSELVES IN THE PLACE OF GOD, AND THAT -- AND TAKE MATTERS INTO OUR OWN HANDS.

WHAT A SHAME, BECAUSE WE'LL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT OF OUR SINS ONE DAY.

WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO FOR ME IS SIMPLE.

BE AT PEACE, BECAUSE IT IS FAR MORE REWARDING.

>> WOW.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT WAS ABOUT DEBRA THAT KEPT HER GOING ALL THOSE YEARS, TOO?

>> FOR ONE, I THINK IT WAS THE LOVE THAT WE HAD FOR EACH OTHER, DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE WERE SEPARATED AND APART.

AND ALSO, WE BOTH SHARED A CHILD, AND WHEN WE ENTERED INTO THIS RELATIONSHIP, AS FAR AS GETTING MARRIED, YOU KNOW, WE -- WE MEANT TO SPEND THE REST OF OUR LIVES TOGETHER, SO, I THINK -- I THINK SHE KIND OF HELD ONTO THAT, AS WELL.

>> AND ALL OF THAT WAS RIPPED AWAY FROM YOU.

WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP LIKE TODAY WITH DEBRA AND WITH YOUR CHILD?

>> OH, IT'S FANTASTIC.

WE'RE, OF COURSE, WE'RE GETTING TO REACCLIMATE OURSELVES WITH ONE ANOTHER, TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER AGAIN, ALL OVER.

OF COURSE I NEVER REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW AND SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH MY SON, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF VISITS, SO HAVING A FULL DAY TO SPEND TIME WITH HIM AND GETTING TO KNOW HIM, TO KNOW WHAT HE LIKES AND HIS DISLIKES, I MEAN, IT'S JUST A FANTASTIC AND AWESOME EXPERIENCE.

>> BARBARA, YOU FOCUS ON A FEW NARRATIVES AND KEY THEMES IN THIS BOOK, AND ONE IS JUST SIMPLY STATING THAT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT BLIND.

IT IS NOT FAIR.

IN STATES LIKE TEXAS, BUT NOT EXCLUSIVE TO TEXAS, ESPECIALLY AT THE TIME FOR A BLACK MAN WHO WAS INNOCENT OF THE CRIME THAT HE'S ACCUSED OF COMMITTING.

BUT DIDN'T HAVE, NECESSARILY, THE RESOURCES THAT COULD HAVE SUPPORTED HIS CASE.

WHAT WAS THAT PROCESS LIKE FOR YOU?

>> I REALLY KIND OF EXKA VALTED THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN THE COURSE OF WRITING THIS BOOK.

BEN IS NOT ALONE.

THERE ARE AT LEAST 3,400 PEOPLE SINCE 1989 WHO HAVE BEEN WRONGFULLY CONVICTED AND EXONERATED.

SO, THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE.

SO, THE SYSTEM IS KIND OF -- IT'S FLAWED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WHAT YOU SEE IN BEN'S CASE ARE SEVERAL OF THE FLAWS, NOT ALL OF THEM.

YOU SAW LYING WITNESSES.

THERE WERE THREE WITNESSES WHO WANTED THE REWARD MONEY, AND SO THEY LIED ABOUT BEN.

YOU SAW JAILHOUSE INFORMANT WHO WANTED A SHORTER SENTENCE, HE WAS FACING 25 YEARS, HE GOT OUT AFTER 14 MONTHS, AFTER TESTIFYING AGAINST BEN.

YOU HAD TUNNEL VISION BY THE POLICE, POLICE WERE TOLD ABOUT A MORE VIABLE SUSPECT THAN BEN, AND YET, THEY ALREADY HAD BEN IN CUSTODY, AND SO, THEY JUST DECIDED TO PLOW THROUGH AND GO AHEAD AND JUST CONTINUE WITH THIS CASE.

EVEN HAD, IN THE PROSECUTOR'S CASE, HE HID EVIDENCE.

EVIDENCE THAT ONE OF THE WITNESSES WAS LYING ON THE STAND, AND -- SO, YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF THINGS.

NOT ALL THE FLAWS, THERE ARE OTHER FLAWS LIKE FALSE CONFESSIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT IN BEN'S CASE, YOU HAVE A BUNCH OF THEM.

AND SO, YOU -- YOU GET A WRONGFUL CONVICTION, BUT THEN THE OTHER THING THAT YOU SEE IS, IT'S SO HARD TO GET PEOPLE OUT.

I MEAN, THE -- THE APPELLATE JUDGES DO NOT WANT TO REVISIT, QUESTION A JURY VERDICT, SO, THEY MAKE IT EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR ANYONE TO GET A NEW TRIAL OR -- OR GET EXONERATED, AND SO, IT TOOK 34 YEARS.

IT TOOK LUCK, BASICALLY.

IT TOOK THE EFFORTS OF FIVE PEOPLE, TWO INVESTIGATORS, TWO LAWYERS, AND, YOU KNOW, ME, A JOURNALIST, TO GET ENOUGH EVIDENCE BEFORE A DISTRICT ATTORNEY, THE NEW DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN DALLAS, SO THAT HE WOULD EVEN REOPEN THE CASE AND LOOK AT IT.

IT TOOK SERENDIPITY TO GET HIM OUT, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT'S SO DISTURBING ABOUT THIS, IS THAT NOT ONLY ARE THERE FLAWS IN THE SYSTEM, BUT TO UNDO THE MISTAKE TAKES JUST DUMB LUCK.

>> SO, BARBARA, IT'S INTERESTING THAT TEXAS IS NOW DOING MORE THAN ANY OTHER STATE TO FIX THE SYSTEM NOW FOR WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH WHAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE DOING TO REMEDY THIS ISSUE?

>> YEAH, IT'S KIND OF FUNNY.

NOT EVERY STATE CAN BE AS PROGRESSIVE AS TEXAS, RIGHT?

THOSE ARE WORDS THAT ARE -- >> AT LEAST ON THIS ISSUE.

>> SO, WHAT -- I MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED WITH TEXAS IS, THINK I THEY REALIZED, A, FOR ONE THING, THEY STILL EXECUTE PEOPLE, AND SO, THEY REALLY FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO GET IT RIGHT.

THEY'VE ALSO HAD A LOT OF WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS.

AND THEY'VE GOTTEN A LOT OF PUBLICITY ABOUT THAT, SO WHAT THEY'VE TRIED TO DO IS PUT IN GUARDRAILS.

IT'S -- IT'S A LOT HARDER TO USE A JAILHOUSE INFORMANT NOW.

THE POLICE INTERVIEWS ARE -- ARE RECORDED, AND SO THERE'S -- IT'S HARDER TO GET A FALSE CONFESSION.

THEY MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU TO APPLY FOR A NEW TRIAL, LIKE, IF YOU'RE IN PRISON AND INNOCENT AND NEW EVIDENCE COMES FORWARD, THEY MAKE IT MUCH EASIER FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY GET ACCESS TO A JUDGE AND PRESENT THAT EVIDENCE.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT THEY'VE DONE THAT A NUMBER OF STATES HAVE FOLLOWED IS THAT THEY HAVE CREATED WHAT'S CALLED A CONVICTION INTEGRITY UNIT.

THAT'S A UNIT THAT GOT BEN OUT.

AND IN THAT UNIT -- IT'S A UNIT WITHIN THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE, AND WHAT THEY DO IS, THEY TAKE ON DUBIOUS CONVICTIONS, AND THEY REINVESTIGATE THEM, TOP TO BOTTOM.

AND IT IS -- IT IS PROBABLY THE MOST POWERFUL TOOL THAT TEXAS OR OTHER STATES HAVE RIGHT NOW, FOR UNDOING WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS.

AND THAT'S WHAT GOT BEN OUT.

>> AND BEN, JUSTICE HASN'T COMPLETELY BEEN SERVED IN YOUR CASE.

MOVING FORWARD NOW, IT IS UP TO A JUDGE, A DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ACTUALLY, TO DETERMINE WHETHER TO DISMISS THESE CHARGES OR FIND THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT.

IF IT IS THE LATTER, A AND YOUR NAME WILL BE CLEARED, YOU WILL RECEIVE NEARLY $3 MILLION FOR THE TIME THAT YOU SPENT WRONGFULLY BEHIND BARS.

HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT THAT WILL HAPPEN?

>> WELL, FORTUNATELY, FOR US, AT THIS TIME, AUGUST 29th, THERE WAS A HEARING HELD AT THE DALLAS COUNTY, 283rd DISTRICT COURT, THE JUDGE DECLARED, AND THE STATE ALSO AGREED, THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT I'M INNOCENT.

SO, THAT PART OF THIS ORDEAL IS NOW BEHIND ME, AND NOW I'M JUST TRYING TO LIVE AND ENJOY LIFE AND -- I CAN NEVER REGAIN THE 34 YEARS THAT WERE TAKEN AWAY FROM ME, BUT YOU KNOW, I CAN JUST PUSH FORWARD AND TRY TO BE AN INSPIRATION TO SOMEONE ELSE.

>> THAT -- THAT IS -- THAT IS WONDERFUL NEWS TO HEAR, AND BEN, I KNOW FAITH HAS PLAYED A HUGE ROLE FOR YOU, FOR ACTUALLY BOTH OF YOU, THROUGHOUT THIS JOURNEY.

BEN, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT IT'S MEANT FOR YOU AND HOW THAT'S KEPT YOU GOING?

>> WELL, TO BE HONEST, WITHOUT HAVING FAITH IN GOD AND KNOWING THAT GOD IS ABLE TO SUSTAIN ME THROUGH WHATEVER SITUATIONS I FIND MYSELF, I JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST IN HONESTY, I COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT.

IT'S NOT ME, IT'S ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD THAT I WAS ABLE TO ENDURE THE SUFFERINGS AND TRIALS THAT I WENT THROUGH.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST -- JUST THAT FAITH THAT HAS PUSHED ME FORWARD, AND I CONTINUE TO TRUST AND BELIEVE THAT ONE DAY THAT THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL, AND IT HAS.

SO, I'M JUST SO THANKFUL.

>> AND BARBARA, I KNOW, FOR YOU, IT WAS A CONNECTION WITH YOUR COLLEAGUE THAT LED YOU HIS FAITH AND REALLY FOCUSING AND PRIORITIZING ON THOSE WHO ARE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED, LED YOU, ULTIMATELY, TO BEN'S STORY.

IT IS A FANTASTIC DEPICTION OF WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED OVER NEARLY FOUR DECADES, TO AN INNOCENT MAN WHO STILL -- YOUR OPTIMISM, YOUR ABILITY, BEN, TO MOVE FORWARD AND NOT TO HARBOR RESENTMENT, IS SO INSPIRING.

I THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US TAETD TO TALK A BIT MORE ABOUT YOUR STORY, AND WE CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT THE NEXT PART OF YOUR LIFE WILL BE.

BEN, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> BARBARA, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SPECIAL MAN.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO BANGLADESH, WHERE MANY ARE STILL PICKING UP THE PIECES AFTER THE MASS UPRISING THAT OUSTED FORMER PRIME MINISTER SHEIKH HASINA, AFTER SHE ORDERED A BRUTAL CRACKDOWN BY POLICE, SOME PROTESTERS HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH DEEP SCARS.

BUT AS ANNA COREN REPORTS NOW, MANY FEEL THAT IT IS A NEW DAWN FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> THE FRUSTRATIONS OF THE FUTURE AGAINST THAT OF THE PAST.

SHOES HANGING IN THE FACE OF SHEIKH HASINA, THE ULTIMATE INSULT AND SHOW OF DEFIANCE IN A COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS ACHIEVED THE UNTHINKABLE.

WHAT BEGAN AS A STUDENT-LED PROTEST AGAINST GOVERNMENT QUOTAS IN EARLY JULY MORPHED INTO A MASS UPRISING.

AFTER HASINA, WHO HAD BEEN IN POWER FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS, ORDERED POLICE TO OPEN FIRE ON THE CROWDS.

OVER THE FOLLOWING WEEKS, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED, WHILE THOUSANDS WERE ARRESTED.

>> THEY CAME TO MY HOUSE, THEY BROKE THREE DOORS, THEY TOOK ME WITH THEM, AND -- OH, MY GOD, THE PHYSICAL TORTURE, THAT WAS -- MISERABLE.

>> THIS WOMAN, A 23-YEAR-OLD POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDENT, SAYS SHE WAS BEATEN FOR HOURS ON END.

HER FACE REPEATEDLY HIT.

SOME OF HER TEETH NOW LOOSE, HER RIGHT EARDRUM BURST.

>> WITHOUT HEARING IT, I -- >> AFTER FIVE DAYS IN CUSTODY, SHE WAS PARADED IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS.

THE ONLY FEMALE IN THE GROUP OF PROMINENT STUDENT LEADERS FORCED TO MAKE AN APOLOGY.

FOR THIS FELLOW STUDENT, HIS DETAINMENT WAS EVEN MORE SINISTER.

SNATCHED FROM HIS HOME BEFORE DAWN, HE WAS BLINDFOLDED, HANDCUFFED, AND BELIEVES HE WAS TAKEN TO A NOTORIOUS MILITARY INTELLIGENCE FACILITY, WHERE OVER THE YEARS, HUNDREDS OF BANGLADESHI CONSIDERED ANTI-STATE HAVE BEEN DISAPPEARED.

>> THAT WAS LIKE -- THERE IS NO ESCAPING FROM THIS, AND MY LIFE WILL END HERE, AND NO ONE WILL KNOW.

>> THE LAW STUDENT SAYS FOR HOURS, HE WAS BEATEN WITH A METAL ROD, BREAKING BONES IN HIS FEET.

A BURNING CIGARETTE WAS THEN PUSHED INTO HIS FINGERS AND TOES, AS PART OF WHAT THEY CALLED THEIR LITTLE GAME.

>> WHEN I -- I CLOSE MY EYES, I DREAM ABOUT THAT.

I WENT TO THAT HORRIBLE DAY.

>> ONCE RELEASED, HE DISCOVERED HASINA HAD RESIGNED AND FLED TO INDIA.

>> THE PEOPLE OF BANGLADESH, IT IS THE PEOPLE'S COUNTRY.

>> THE CAPITAL NOW AWASH WITH COLORFUL MURALS HAS A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE -- THERE IS NO GOING BACK.

AS THE U.N. INVESTIGATES THE HUNDREDS OF PROTESTER DEATHS, THE PEOPLE HAVE ENTRUSTED INTERIM CHIEF NOBEL PRIZE WINNER MUHAMMAD YUNUS TO BRING ABOUT DESPERATELY NEEDED REFORM.

THE FALL OF THE GOVERNMENT HAS UNLEASHED A SPIRIT THAT HAS ELECTRIFIED EVERY LEVEL OF SOCIETY.

IT HAS GIVEN A VOICE TO EVERYONE FROM STUDENTS TO DOCTORS, EVEN RICK SHAW DRIVERS, AS THEY TAKE TO THE STREETS TO MAKE THEIR DEMANDS.

BUT CHANGE DOESN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

ESPECIALLY IN A COUNTRY OF 170 MILLION PEOPLE, WHERE THE IRON FIST RULED AND CORRUPTION AND CRONYISM REIGNED.

>> MY COUNTRY IS SICK, BUT OUR PEOPLE, WE STAND TOGETHER.

I BELIEVE THERE WILL BE SUNSHINE IN FUTURE.

>> A FUTURE THIS GENERATION WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR.

>> AND NOW, TO THE U.S., WHERE THE ECONOMY CONTINUES TO TOP THE POLLS AS A KEY ISSUE FOR VOTERS.

AND KAMALA HARRIS AND DONALD TRUMP'S RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE, OUR NEXT GUEST IS ADVISING HARRIS AND HER CAMPAIGN, AND ALSO MAKING THE CASE THAT THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE CAN PAVE THE WAY FOR A NEW ERA OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP.

BRIAN DEESE PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS HEAD OF THE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

BRIAN DEESE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> YOU JUST WROTE A PIECE IN "FOREIGN AFFAIRS" MAGAZINE, THAT PLACE WHERE FOREIGN POLICY THINKES TRY OUT BIG IDEAS, AND IT'S CALLED "THE CASE FOR A CLEAN ENERGY MARTIAL PLAN."

SOME OF US ROLL OUR EYES WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS A MARTIAL PLAN FOR ENDING POVERTY, A MARTIAL PLAN FOR REBUILDING GAZA -- WHY IS THIS DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF THE SCALE OF THE OPPORTUNITY, AND THE U.S. STRATEGIC POSITIONING IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

BUT LET ME START BY JUST REINFORCING YOUR POINT.

I THINK IN GENERAL, MARTIAL PLAN ANALOGIES ARE OVERUSED.

BUT IN THIS CASE, WE'RE FACING A VERY COMPLICATED INTERNATIONAL ORDER TODAY.

A WORLD THAT WAS LARGELY DEFINED BY IMMIGRATION FOR SEVERAL DECADES IS NOW BEING DEFINED BY FRAGMENTATION.

AND THE U.S. IS FACING DIFFICULT QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW IT IS THAT WE MAINTAIN OUR LEADERSHIP POSITION IN THE WORLD, AND A LOT OF THAT IS COMING DOWN TO WHETHER AND HOW WE CAN SHOW UP AS A GENEROUS AND GENUINE PARTNER, WITH ALLIES AND PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD IN REGIONS OF THE WORLD WHERE WE NEED TO SHOW UP MORE GENUINELY.

AND WHEN I WENT BACK AND DID SOME HISTORY READING ON THE MARTIAL PLAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS MOST INTERESTING AND OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD IS THAT BOTH MARSHALL AND TRUMAN AT THE TIME WERE MOTIVATED BY TRYING TO ANSWER AN IMPORTANT DOMESTIC QUESTION, WHICH WAS IN THE WAKE OF THE WORLD WAR II MOBILIZATION, HOW DO YOU EXTEND ECONOMIC GAINS THAT HAD BEEN BUILT ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

BUT ALSO DO SO IN A WAY THAT ADVANCED OUR STRATEGIC INTEREST GLOBALLY, AND WERE GENEROUS TO OUR ALLIES?

AND WHAT THEY HAPPENED ON WAS TO HAVE A SYSTEM OF VERY ACTIVE EFFORTS TO TRY TO ENCOURAGE U.S. PRODUCTION OF GOODS AND SERVICES, PARTICULARLY FOR INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT.

TO OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, IN A WAY THAT WAS PRINCIPALLY COMMUNICATED TO THE U.S. PUBLIC AS AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY.

AND TODAY, I THINK WE ARE SIMILARLY POSITIONED WITH RESPECT TO THE ENERGY TRANSITION WHERE WE ARE SEEING EXTRAORDINARY GROWTH OF U.S. INDUSTRIES TODAY.

EXTRAORDINARY GROWTH IN NEW FRONTIER TECHNOLOGIES, BATTERIES, ADVANCED STORAGE.

AND THE QUESTION IS, HOW CAN WE EXTEND THAT ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AND DO SO IN A GENEROUS AND GENUINE WAY WITH OUR PARTNERS AND ALLIES?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE REASONS, TOO, FOR THE MARSHALL PLAN, WAS TO STOP THE SPREAD OF RUSSIAN-BACKED COMMUNISM IN EUROPE AND IT WAS FOR STRATEGIC REASONS LIKE THAT.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK A PLAN LIKE YOU PROPOSE IS PARTLY THERE TO COUNTER CHINA AND ITS BELT AND ROAD INITIATIVES?

>> LOOK, I THINK WE HAVE TWO VERY HIGH ORDER STRATEGIC CHALLENGES AS A COUNTRY THAT WE NEED A VERY CLEAR ANSWER TO.

THE FIRST IS THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO ACCELERATE AND CREATE ACCELERATED RISKS TO THE PLANET, BUT ALSO TO OUR SECURITY, THROUGH CONFLICT, MIGRATION, OTHER ISSUES.

THAT'S WHY NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERTS FOR YEARS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFYING THIS AS A SERIOUS THREAT.

BUT ALSO, WE ARE INCREASINGLY IN A PERIOD OF GREAT POWER COMPETITION.

AND SO, THE QUESTION IS, AS WE WORK WITH OUR ALLIES STRATEGICALLY, WHAT COUNTRY IS CAPABLE OF ACTUALLY SHOWING UP IN A GENUINE AND GENEROUS WAY, AND A WAY THAT ACTUALLY CAN SCALE SOLUTIONS THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING FOR?

AND SO, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO BE VERY PRAGMATIC AND STRATEGIC IN ANSWERS THOUGH QUESTIONS.

>> LET ME READ YOU A COUPLE OF PHRASES FROM YOUR PIECE.

YOU SAID THAT CLIMATE WILL PRESENT THE GREATEST ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AND IT WILL BE THE LARGEST CAPITAL FORMATION EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY NOT JUST LET THE MARKET AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR LEAD ON THIS?

>> WELL, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK IT GOES EXACTLY TO THE OPPORTUNITY THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, WHICH IS, IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IS NECESSARY TO ACTUALLY ACCELERATE THE ENERGY TRANSITION, IT'S IN MANY CASES WHOLE SCALE TRANSITIONS OF NOT ONLY THE ENERGY SECTOR, HOW WE PRODUCE AND DISTRIBUTE ELECTRICITY, BUT ALSO OUR TRANSPORTATION SECTOR.

THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT, WHERE WE LIVE, WHERE WE WORK, AND HOW THOSE SYSTEMS OPERATE AND INNER OPERATION.

THAT CREATES ENORMOUS NEED FOR CAPITAL, BUT ALSO OPPORTUNITY TO DEPLOY THAT CAPITAL AT SCALE, AND THAT IS COMPOUNDED WITH THE INTERSECTION OF A.I., AND THE ENORMOUS APPETITE FOR DATA CENTERS AND ASSOCIATED ENERGY NEEDS.

CREATING -- TURNING THAT CHALLENGE INTO AN OPPORTUNITY IS WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE AT THE CORE OF A CLEAN ENERGY MARSHALL PLAN.

BUT THE REASON WHY WE NEED -- WE NEED PUBLIC CAPITAL IN THAT CONTEXT IS BECAUSE THE PRIVATE SECTOR ON ITS OWN WON'T INVEST QUICKLY ENOUGH, OR AT SUFFICIENT SCALE, TO ACTUALLY HIT THE TARGETS WE NEED TO AVOID THE WORST IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

MANY OF THE OPPORTUNITIES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARE CLOSE TO COMMERCIALLY VIABLE, AND THEREFORE, YOU COULD USE PUBLIC CAPITAL VERY EFFICIENTLY.

LOANS, LOAN GUARANTEES, OTHER RISK MITIGATION MEASURES THAT CAN FACILITATE MUCH LARGER QUANTUMS OF CAPITAL.

>> HAVING BEEN A TOP ECONOMIC ADVISER FIRST TO PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND THEN TO PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, YOU ARE NOW ADVISING THE KAMALA HARRIS CAMPAIGN.

DOES SHE ENDORSE THIS THING?

>> I'LL LEAVE THE -- HER -- HER VIEWS AND HER ENDORSEMENT ON THIS SEPARATELY.

THIS REFLECTS MY OWN THINKING.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS POTENTIALLY POWERFUL ABOUT ADVANCING CLEAN ENERGY MARSHALL PLAN IS, IT'S ABOUT HARNESSING AND ACCELERATING THE VERY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WHICH, OF COURSE, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAVE BEEN AT THE CENTER AT, WHICH IS, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN DECADES, WE NOW HAVE, IN THE U.S., A VIABLE INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY WHERE WE'RE PUTTING PUBLIC CAPITAL BEHIND INFRASTRUCTURE, CLEAN ENERGY DEVELOPMENT, THE DEVELOPMENT OF SEMICONDUCTORS AND MICROELECTRONICS, AND AS A RESULT, WE'RE SEEING A BOOM IN MANUFACTURING, CONSTRUCTION, A BOOM IN INVESTMENT IN SOME OF THESE FRAN TIER TECHNOLOGIES, WHICH POSITIONS THE U.S. FOR THE FIRST TIME TO ACTUALLY PLAY THIS LEADERSHIP ROLE.

>> A LOT OF YOUR FELLOW DEMOCRATS, INCLUDING VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT INFLATION, TALK ABOUT GREED-FLA T GREED-FLATION, OR PRICE GOUGING.

DOES THAT LEAD TO SOMETHING LIKE PRICE CONTROLS?

OR IS THERE A BETTER WAY TO FIGHT THAT?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK IT LEADS TO PRICE CONTROLS, AND I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAS BEEN REFERENCING.

>> A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ACCUSING HER OF SAYING SHE WANTS PRICE CONTROLS, SO, YOU'RE PRETTY MUCH SAYING NO, SHE'S NOT IN FAVOR OF PRICE CONTROLS?

>> NO, IT'S -- I THINK THAT'S EITHER A MISUNDERSTANDING OR A DELIBERATE MISINTERPRETATION.

I THINK WHAT SHE HAS SPOKEN ABOUT IS THE NEED TO HAVE RULES IN PLACE SO THAT IN PERIODS OF EMERGENCY OR OTHER PERIODS THAT THERE ARE BASIC CONSUMER PROTECTIONS IN PLACE.

SOME PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE PRICE GOUGING STATUTES AND FRAMEWORKS IN PLACE IN 40 OF THE 50 STATES.

THEY HAVE BEEN INVOKED IN VARIOUS MOMENTS, INCLUDING DURING THE PANDEMIC, TO MAKE SURE THAT AT THOSE MOMENTS, CONSUMERS ARE NOT TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BY -- BY COMPANIES THAT ARE WILLFULLY TRYING TO USE THEIR MARKET POSITION TO RAISE PRICES.

THAT'S A SENSIBLE PART OF OUR REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT, AND THAT'S A SENSIBLE PART OF HOW YOU PROTECT CONSUMERS IN THIS PERIOD.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY, NEITHER VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS NOR, I THINK, THE PRESIDENT, HAVE FOCUSED ON THAT TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHER INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT POLICIES THAT WOULD HELP TO CONTINUE THE PROGRESS IN LOWERING PRICES.

>> ANOTHER PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROPOSAL THAT'S BEEN ATTACKED QUITE A BIT BY REPUBLICANS IS THE CONCEPT GENERALLY OF A WEALTH TAX, OF TAXING NOT JUST INCOME, BUT OF WEALTH, AND SOMETIMES UNREALIZED CAPITAL GAINS BEING TAXED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE POSITION OF THE DEMOCRATS AT THE MOMENT ON THAT?

>> LOOK, I THINK THAT THE -- THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT, AS WELL, HAVE OPERATED FROM A PRETTY BASIC SET OF PRINCIPLES WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE.

THE FIRST IS THAT WE NEED TO REFORM THE WAY WE TAX CORPORATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.

TO MAKE SURE THAT CORPORATIONS ARE ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTING A REASONABLE AMOUNT TO OUR TAX BASE.

THE 2017 TAX LAW, THE TRUMP TAX CUT, VERY SIGNIFICANTLY UNDERMINED THAT, BROUGHT THE TOP CORPORATE TAX RATE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY.

AND ALSO CHANGED THE INTERNATIONAL INCENTIVES IN A WAY THAT IF WE DON'T ACTUALLY WORK GLOBALLY, IT ACTUALLY ENCOURAGES COMPANIES TO SHIP PRODUCTION AND ALSO IP ABROAD AS A WAY OF AVOIDING U.S. TAXES.

SO, WE NEED TO HAVE AN APPROACH THAT BOTH TAXES LARGE CORPORATIONS MORE, BUT ALSO SMARTER, SO THAT WE ARE NOT -- WE'RE DISCOURAGING THAT TYPE OF EFFORT TO MOVE PRODUCTION AND -- >> BUT WHAT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL WEALTH TAX OR UNREALIZED CAPITAL GAINS TAX?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE SECOND CORE PRINCIPLE IS THAT THE VERY WEALTHIEST AMERICANS SHOULD BE PAYING A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF THEIR INCOME IN TAXES, SO THAT WE CAN AVOID THE CURRENT DISPARITY WE HAVE IN OUR TAX SYSTEM, WHERE -- WHERE THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS ACTUALLY END UP PAYING A MUCH LOWER TAX RATE THAN TYPICAL PEOPLE WHOSE INCOME IS COMING FROM -- FROM WORK AND THEY'RE PAYING THAT ON THEIR W2 EVERY PAY PERIOD.

>> WAIT, EXPLAIN TO ME, WHEN YOU SAY INCOME, DO YOU ALSO MEAN CAPITAL GAINS, UNREALIZED CAPITAL GAINS?

THE INVESTMENTS PEOPLE HAVE IN EITHER THEIR BUSINESSES OR THEIR HOMES?

>> WELL, SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE PRESIDENT HAS PROPOSED FOR SOME YEARS THE CONCEPT OF A BILLIONAIRE MINIMUM TAX, WHICH WOULD IMPOSE A MINIMUM TAX RATE ON THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS, THOSE MAKING OVER 100 MILLION -- THOSE WITH OVER $100 MILLION IN WEALTH.

AND WHAT IT WOULD DO IS, IT WOULD ESSENTIALLY MAKE SURE THAT ON AN ANNUAL BASIS, THEY WERE PAYING SOME MINIMUM RATE.

I THINK THAT THAT STRUCTURE, THAT CONCEPT, IS REASONABLE.

AND IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WE NEED TO WORK TOWARD A SOLUTION TO IN THE U.S., BECAUSE THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS NOT ONLY UNFAIR IN THE SENSE THAT THE VERY WEALTHIEST SHOULDN'T BE PAYING AN EFFECTIVE TAX RATE THAT IS MUCH LOWER, BUT IT'S ALSO NOT ALLOWING US TO FUND THE KEY PRIORITIES THAT WE NEED TO AS A COUNTRY, WHETHER IT'S TO MEET OUR NATIONAL SECURITY NEEDS, OR TO PROVIDE MORE SUPPORT AND RELIEF ON CRISIS TO LOWER INCOME FAMILIES.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS BEFORE, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAS TALKED ABOUT IS WANTING TO PROVIDE MORE TAX RELIEF DIRECTLY TO WORKING FAMILIES, FOLKS WHO ARE MIDDLE INCOME, THROUGH, FOR EXAMPLE, AN EXPANSION -- A PERMANENT EXPANSION OF THE CHILD TAX CREDIT.

THAT IS AN ECONOMICALLY SMART THING TO DO, IT WOULD DIRECTLY ADDRESS THE COST PRESSURES THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE FACING.

AND WE SHOULD FINANCE THAT IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY.

SO, THERE'S A NEED FOR THIS TYPE OF TAX REFORM, IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THE INVESTMENTS THAT WE NEED AS A COUNTRY, AS WELL.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT THESE TAX CUTS, I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA WHARTON SCHOOL HAS DONE STUDIES, SAID THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS' PLAN WOULD ADD MAYBE $1.2 TRILLION TO THE DEFICIT OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS, AND, OF COURSE, TRUMP'S, THEY SAY, WOULD ADD $5.8 TRILLION TO THE DEFICIT OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS.

HAVE WE AMERICANS QUIT WORRYING ABOUT THE DEFICIT AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD?

>> WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS, BUT I CAN CERTAINLY -- I KNOW THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IS QUITE FOCUSED ON IT.

THAT STUDY THAT YOU MENTIONED WAS INCOMPLETE, AND IT LEFT OUT A NUMBER OF PROPOSALS THAT SHE SUPPORTS THAT WOULD ACTUALLY RAISE REVENUE AND SO, IF YOU LOOK AT HER APPROACH AS A WHOLE, HER PLAN WOULD ACTUALLY REDUCE THE DEFICIT, BUT I THINK THE THING THAT IS STRIKING THAT YOU JUST RAISED IS HOW LARGE A GAP THERE IS BETWEEN THE APPROACH THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT IS PUTTING FORWARD, WHICH IS TO INVEST IN MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES, TO RAISE TAXES ON CORPORATIONS AND THE VERY WEALTHIEST AMERICANS AND DO SO IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T INCREASE THE DEFICIT, AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS PUTTING FORWARD, BECAUSE THE -- THE DEGREE TO WHICH HE IS PREPARED TO EXPAND THE DEFICIT IS BREATHTAKING.

AND UNPRECEDENTED FOR A MODERN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

SOME, YOU KNOW, THAT ANALYSIS FOUND BETWEEN $5 AND $6 TRILLION YOU SOME HAVE IT $7, $8 TRILLION.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCES ECONOMICALLY IN THIS ELECTION IS THAT APPROACH TO FISCAL DISCIPLINE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS IN YOUR PIECE IS THE NOTION OF USING TARIFFS VERY STRATEGICALLY.

BACK TO TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS AGAIN.

AND YOU HAD A PLAN IN WHICH YOU WOULD BASE A TARIFF ON THE CARBON CONSUMPTION THAT WAS CAUSED BY WHATEVER PRODUCT THERE MAY BE A TARIFF ON.

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THAT WOULD WORK.

>> WHEN I THINK ABOUT WHERE WE SHOULD EVOLVE THIS CONVERSATION, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT USING TARIFFS IN A MORE STRATEGIC WAY, AND I THINK THERE'S TWO WAYS TO DO THAT.

ONE IS TO MULTILATERALIZE THAT.

TRY TO WORK WITH PARTNERS AND ALLIES TO HARMONIZE TARIFF RESPONSES, IMPORTANTLY WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT CHINA, SO WE'RE BRINGING TO BEAR A BROADER COALITION TO TRY TO HELP CHANGE CHINA'S BEHAVIOR WHEN IT COMES TO SOME OF THE NONMARKET AND ILLEGAL ACTIONS THEY'RE TAKING, INCLUDING IN TRYING TO BUILD THIS EXCESS CAPACITY.

AND WE'RE ALREADY SEEING THAT EFFORT TO MULTILATERALIZE HAPPEN.

WE'VE SEEN THE EU AND CANADA MOVE TO HARMONIZE THEIR APPROACHES TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES, WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE'VE SEEN COUNTRIES AS DIVERSE AS BRAZIL AND CHILE AND VIETNAM RAISING CONCERNS DIRECTLY, FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT CHINESE STEEL OVERCAPACITY AND DUMPING.

SO, THAT'S ONE PIECE, AND THE SECOND IS, I THINK, WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT REFLECTING THE CARBON CONTENT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT TARIFFS.

THIS IS A RELATIVELY STRAIGHTFORWARD IDEA, WHICH IS, IF CHINA IS PRODUCING STEEL, FOR EXAMPLE, AND DOING SO IN INCREDIBLY DIRTY AND EMISSIONS-INTENSIVE WAYS, WE SHOULD REFLECT THAT IN THE TARIFF RATES THAT WE'RE IMPOSING ON CHINESE -- CHINESE STEEL.

BECAUSE -- FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, BUT THE OTHER IS TO ENCOURAGE CHINA TO PURSUE MORE -- LESS ENERGY-INTENSIVE AND MORE EFFICIENT MEANS OF PRODUCTION.

>> YEAH, BUT BOTH PARTIES ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS A LOT MORE THAN THEY DID BEFORE, AND YOU GREW UP, AND I CERTAINLY GREW UP IN AN ERA WHERE FREE TRADE WAS ALMOST A GOSPEL, AND YET, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT ALL THE PROBLEMS YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IN YOUR PIECE, PART OF IT IS, WE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH MANUFACTURING HERE, WE DON'T HAVE AS MANY FACTORIES IN THE UNITED STATES.

WAS IT A BIT OF A MISTAKE TO HAVE A TARIFF AND FREE TRADE REGIME THAT ALLOWED THE OFFSHORING OF OUR MANUFACTURING CAPACITY AND SHOULD WE RETHINK THE WHOLE NOTION OF HAVING SOME TARIFFS THAT PROTECT OUR OWN MANUFACTURING?

>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK WE ARE -- WE'RE FUNDAMENTALLY RETHINKING THAT IN REAL TIME.

I THINK THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THAT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IS THAT WE AS A COUNTRY LOST SIGHT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT WE HAVE AN INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY TO INVEST IN SOURCES OF ECONOMIC STRENGTH AND BUILDING OUR OWN CAPACITY DOMESTICALLY.

SO, THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

AND WE'VE MADE A TON OF PROGRESS TO CORRECTING THAT.

WITH HISTORIC INVESTMENTS IN INFRASTRUCTURE AND CLEAN ENERGY.

THE SECOND IS A MORE CLEAR-EYED RECOGNITION THAT ALLOWING CHINA TO ASCEND INTO THE GLOBAL ECONOMY BY USING A DELIBERATE STRATEGY OF CREATING OVERCAPACITY EXTERNALLY AND ACTUALLY INVEST -- UNDERINVESTING DOMESTICALLY, IS NOT A -- IS NOT BENIGN.

THAT DISTORTS THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

WE NEED A MORE BALANCED REGIME WHERE WE HAVE DIVERSIFIED SUPPLY CHAINS, AND THAT DOES REQUIRE A STRATEGIC EFFORT TO TRY TO USE TARIFFS, BUT HARMONIZE THEM, IN AREAS THAT ARE STRATEGIC, BUT I THINK THE THIRD POINT THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT IS, WE NEED TO MAKE CLEAR THAT THE GOAL OF THAT IS A BALANCED REGIME, WHERE WE ARE -- WE ARE TAKING RISK OUT OF SUPPLY CHAINS, AND WE ARE CREATING MORE DIVERSIFICATION.

AND THE GOAL IS NOT SOME VIEW OF THE WORLD IN WHICH WE CAN FUNDAMENTALLY SORT OF RIP APART ECONOMIES AND, FOR EXAMPLE, DECOUPLE CHINA FROM THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

AND MAINTAINING THAT BALANCE AND GETTING OURSELVES TO A NEW PLACE IS CHALLENGING, BUT I THINK IT IS THE STRATEGIC IMPERATIVE FOR THE COUNTRY, AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO BACK TO A REGIME THAT JUST SORT OF PRESUMES THAT WITH THE REDUCTION OF BARRIERS AND THE REDUCTION OF INVESTMENTS IN OUR OWN CAPACITY, THAT WE WILL END UP IN AN ECONOMICALLY ACCEPTABLE OUTCOME.

I THINK WE'VE SEEN THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

AND I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING BACK THERE.

>> BRIAN DEESE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, FROM THE PARIS PARALYMPICS, THE STORY OF A RUNNER WHO FAILED TO EARN A MEDAL, BUT STILL WON THE REAL PRIZE.

AFTER LOSING IN A QUALIFYING ROUND FOR THE 100-METER FINALS, ITALY ASKED HIS GIRLFRIEND TO MARRY HIM IN FRONT OF 40,000 FANS.

SHE SAYS HER ONLY THOUGHT WAS, HE'S TOTALLY CRAZY!

BUT SHE SAID YES.

HE LOST HIS LEFT LEG IN 2015 MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENT IN WHICH HE ALSO LOST HIS FIRST WIFE.

HE SAYS SPORTS HELPED HIM COME BACK FROM A VERY DARK PERIOD.

>>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

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