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>>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
EVACUATING UKRAINE'S WOUNDED.
MY EXCLUSIVE REPORT ABOARD THE MEDEVAC TRAIN NEVER BEFORE FILMED.
>>> THEN.
I AM STILL AGAINST THE WAR.
THE MAIN PURPOSE.
>> AFTER A DECADE AT THE HELM OF NATO COMMITTEE SECRETARY GENERAL TERM IS UP IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW ABOUT WAR, PEACE, AND HOW CHUMP TO POINT OUT MIGHT AFFECT THE ALLOWANCE.
>>> ISRAELI SETTLER VIOLENCE ESCALATES IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.
>>> I STILL THINK HIS POLICIES ARE 1 MILLION TIMES BETTER THAN HARRIS'S.
HE STILL HAS MORE WORK TO DO.
>>> RAND PAUL TELLS WALTER TRUMP THAT HAS NOT YET ENDORSED HIM.
>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
WE BEGIN IN UKRAINE, THE LONG- STANDING DEMAND FROM PRESIDENT VOLODOMYR ZELENSKYY TO USE WESTERN WEAPONS AGAINST RUSSIAN TARGETS.
THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE AND BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY GAVE NO CONCRETE COMMANDS ON THAT ISSUE.
BUT ANTONY BLINKEN SAID THE WHITE HOUSE WILL "ADAPT AS THE WORLD CHANGES".
HOW THAT TRANSLATES ON THE GROUND COULD NOT BE MORE CRITICAL FOR KYIV, AS RUSSIA PUSHES BACK AGAINST THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE INTO ITS REGION AND UKRAINIAN TROOPS STRUGGLE TO HOLD ONTO THE KEY TOWN IN THE EAST.
IN AN EXCLUSIVE EXIT INTERVIEW, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG TELLS ME THIS LAND WAR, EUROPE'S BIGGEST SINCE WORST CATASTROPHES OF HIS TERM.
THAT FULL CONVERSATION IN A MOMENT.
>>> BUT FIRST, AS THE FIGHTING CONTINUES, SO TOO DOES THE FLOOD OF CASUALTIES FROM THE FRONT.
THERE IS A LIFELINE IN THE FORM OF UKRAINE'S CONSTANTLY RUNNING WILL RAY--RAILWAY HOSPITALS.
THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN FILMED UNTIL THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORT.
THIS IS CONSIDERED A MILITARY SECRET, SO WE ARE NOT REVEALING ITS ROUTE OR IDENTIFYING THOSE ON BOARD.
HERE IT IS.
ON A HOT, LATE SUMMER MORNING, DEPARTURE TIME IS FAST APPROACHING AT THIS RAILWAY STATION IN UKRAINE.
BUT THIS IS NO ORDINARY TRAIN.
IT IS A HOSPITAL ON WHEELS.
EVACUATING THOUSANDS OF WOUNDED LITERARY PERSONNEL AWAY FROM THE EASTERN FRONT AS RUSSIA'S BRUTAL OFFENSIVE DRAGS ON.
PARAMEDICS CAREFULLY LOADING PATIENT AFTER PATIENT.
MANY OF THEM UNCONSCIOUS ONTO REPURPOSED CARRIAGES.
IT IS A HIGHLY ORGANIZED SPECIAL OPERATION AND HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
CNN GAINED UNPRECEDENTED AND EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO WHAT SO FAR HAS REMAINED A CLOSELY GUARDED MILITARY SECRET.
>> BEFORE THE TRAIN MOVES OFF, I MEET 35-YEAR-OLD ALEXANDER, WOUNDED BY A DRONE STRIKE.
WHICH HAS CAUSED HIM TO GO DEAF IN ONE EAR.
HIS CALL SIGN IS POSITIVE.
BUT HE DOESN'T FEEL IT.
>> VERY TIRED.
BUT HARD TIMES.
>> DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE, ENOUGH WEAPONS TO DEFEND?
>> NO.
NOT ENOUGH.
NO.
>> AS THE TRAIN ROLLS ON, WE MAKE OUR WAY TO THE INTENSIVE CARE UNIT.
WHERE SEVERAL SOLDIERS ARE ON LIFE SUPPORT.
BED AFTER BED OF BROKEN AND BATTERED BODIES.
LIVES SHATTERED IN AN INSTANT, 90% OF THE WOUNDS BEING TREATED ARE FROM SHRAPNEL.
AND YET, MANY OF THESE PATIENTS KNOW THEY WILL BE PATCHED UP JUST TO BE SENT BACK TO THE FRONT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
THIS TRAIN AND ITS CARGO SUM UP UKRAINE'S STATE OF MILITARY AFFAIRS.
MOSTLY ORDINARY CITIZENS WHO ANSWERED THE CALL.
OUTMANNED BY RUSSIA AND YET STILL PUTTING UP A OF A FIGHT.
NURSE JULIA MAKES THIS JOURNEY TWICE A WEEK.
>> HOW DO YOU FEEL BEING IN HERE WITH THE VERY BADLY WOUNDED SOLDIERS?
>> I AM AN EMPATHETIC PERSON SO IT'S DIFFICULT.
BUT YOU HAVE TO SWITCH OFF YOUR FEELINGS AT THE MOMENT AND LATER YOU CAN REFLECT.
AND THE STORY OF FRONTLINE MORALE IS ON DISPLAY HERE TOO.
IF ELECTRICIAN ALEXANDER WAS FEELING DOWN AFTER 18 MONTHS FIGHTING HIS BRUTAL WAR, STANISLAV WHO SIGNED UP IN MARCH IS STILL FULL OF PATRIOTIC FERVOR.
HE CAN STILL SUMMON A SMILE EVEN THOUGH HE HAS SHRAPNEL IN HIS BODY AND DAMAGE TO HIS LUNGS.
>> PERSONALLY, I WAS READY FOR IT.
THE GOOD CONDITION THAT I HAD AT HOME.
I KNEW WHERE I WAS GOING AND WHAT I WAS DOING.
>> THE MOST DIFFICULT PART IS EVACUATION FROM THE FRONTLINE.
COMBAT MEDICS WHO WORK ON THE FRONT ARE DYING, JUST LIKE SOLDIERS.
>> AS THESE CARRIAGES RAMBLE ON THROUGH FIELDS OF GOLD, THINK FOR A MOMENT OF HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF IN EUROPE.
THOUSANDS OF AMBULANCE TRAINS EVACUATED CASUALTIES FROM WORLD WAR I TRENCHES.
MORE THAN 1 MILLION TO THE UK ALONE.
TONIGHT, DARKNESS DESCENDS AS WE ARRIVE AT THE DESTINATION AND SUDDENLY, THERE IS ACTIVITY EVERYWHERE AGAIN.
AS AMBULANCES LINEUP COLLECTING AND DISPATCHING TO HOSPITALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
ON THE PLATFORM, THE RAILWAY CHIEF DESCRIBES HIS PRIDE AND SORROW.
>> THEY ARE HEADING TO THE FRONT LINES.
SEEING THOSE SAME GUYS COMING BACK UNCONSCIOUS OR WITH AMPUTATIONS FEELS LIKE THE PRICE OF THE WAR IS INCREDIBLE.
>> LIKE A CONVEYOR BELT, INDUSTRIAL SKILL CONVERSION OF HEALTHY YOUNG WOMEN INTO THIS.
AS ONE OF THEM TOLD US, UKRAINE IS STRONG AND MOTIVATED.
WHILE RUSSIA HAS QUANTITY, WE HAVE QUALITY.
AND WE WILL WIN.
RUSSIA'S BRUTAL WAR IN UKRAINE AND THE LAND WAR IN EUROPE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES FOR NATO SINCE PERHAPS ITS INCEPTION FROM THE ASHES OF WORLD WAR II.
AND WE FILMED THAT REPORT IN UKRAINE JUST BEFORE INTERVIEWING SECRETARY-GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG IN BRUSSELS.
HE IS THE MAN WE HAVE GROWN USED TO SEEING LEAD THE ORGANIZATION.
AFTER A DECADE AT THE HELM, HE IS STEPPING DOWN AT THE END OF THE MONTH.
I SAT DOWN WITH HIM AT NATO HEADQUARTERS IN THE CENTER OF MILITARY POWER IN THE WESTERN WORLD, FOR AN EXIT INTERVIEW.
IT IS A WIDE-RANGING CONVERSATION ON HIS SURPRISING JOURNEY TO LEAD THE ALLIANCE.
>> SECRETARY-GENERAL, WELCOME.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> THE END OF AN ERA.
10 YEARS, PERHAPS THE LONGEST EVER SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO.
WHAT STANDS OUT IS THE BIGGEST SUCCESS FOR YOU?
>> THE BIGGEST ACHIEVEMENT NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR NATO HAS BEEN WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REINFORCE NATO'S COLLECTIVE DEFENSE, MAKE NATO STRONGER.
THE WORLD HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE DANGEROUS OVER THE 10 YEARS, BUT NATO IS MUCH STRONGER.
MORE DEFENSE SPENDING, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY COMBAT MILITARY TROOPS IN THE EASTERN PART.
AND OF COURSE ALSO BIGGER, FOR NEW MEMBERS.
NORTH MacEDONIA, METHENY-- MONTENEGRO AND FINLAND.
>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE BIGGEST HIS APPOINTMENTS, FAILURES, CATASTROPHES?
>> THE FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.
IT STARTED IN 2014 WITH THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA.
AND THEN OF COURSE WHAT HAPPENED, BUT THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.
THAT WAS AND REMAINS PAINFUL.
>> I WASN'T EXPECTING YOU TO SAY THAT.
TELL ME WHY.
>> AFGHANISTAN, THAT IS AND WAS PAINFUL BECAUSE WE TRIED SOMETHING THAT WE DIDN'T ACHIEVE.
WE TRIED TO BUILD A DEMOCRATIC, FREE AFGHANISTAN WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN.
WE REALIZED AFTER SOME YEARS THAT THAT WAS TOO AMBITIOUS.
THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REQUIRED TOO MUCH.
SO I THINK ONE OF THE LESSONS LEARNED IN AFGHANISTAN IS THE DANGER.
WE STARTED IN 2001, THAT WAS RIGHT TO GO IN.
AND TO FIGHT AL QAEDA, TO TAKE OSAMA BIN LADEN.
WHAT STARTED AS A FOCUSED COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATION BIG, AMBITIOUS NATIONBUILDING MISSION.
AND THAT MISSION WAS TOO MUCH.
WE DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT.
>> AND YET IT WAS MORE THAN 20 YEARS, TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT, LOTS OF PEOPLE.
AND NOW WE CAN SAFELY SAY THAT IT HAS GONE 360 BACK TO CALIBAN 1.0.
THAT IS A CATASTROPHE.
>> EXTREMELY BAD.
NOT LEAST FOR THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN.
I MET MANY WOMEN, MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT WHO BEGGED US TO STAY.
FOR MANY YEARS I PROMISE THAT WE WOULD STAY.
WE WERE GOING TO LEAVE ON A CONDITIONS-BASED APPROACH WHEN WE HAD THE CONFIDENCE THAT THE AFRICAN GOVERNMENT--AFGHAN GOVERNMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO SECURE THE COVENANT.
AFTER PAYING A HIGH PRICE, WE REALIZED, NATO ALLIES REALIZED, THE UNITED STATES REALIZED THAT WE COULD NOT CONTINUE THIS.
AND THEREFORE, WE MADE THE DECISION TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.
I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION.
BUT, BUT I BELIEVE WE SHOULD HAVE IN A WAY I UNDERSTOOD IT EARLIER AND STAYED ON THE FIRST MISSION, FIGHTING TERRORISM.
THAT IS A FOCUSED MISSION.
AND WE RETRIEVED--ACHIEVED A LOT.
WE PREVENTED AFGHANISTAN FROM BEING A SAFE HAVEN FOR INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS AND GAVE MILLIONS OF GIRLS EDUCATION.
THAT IS A LASTING EDUCATION.
>> EXCEPT IT'S NOT, THEY HAVE NOW HAD THAT EDUCATION TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.
THOSE OF HIGH SCHOOL AGE, THEY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY REMOVED FROM THE WORKPLACE.
THE LATEST EDICT IF THEY CAN'T EVEN BE HEARD IN PUBLIC.
IT BRINGS ME TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.
LET'S FACE IT.
THE DEAL TO PULL OUT OF AFGHANISTAN WAS LITERALLY JUST SURRENDERED ESSENTIALLY, HANDED OVER TO THE CALIBAN.
NO DISCUSSION WITH AFGHAN GOVERNMENT OR WOMEN.
YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.
WHO HAS APPEARED TO BE VERY ANTI-NATO, VERY ANTI-THE ALLIANCE.
DO WE KNOW WHETHER HE WOULD AGREE TO ARTICLE FIVE QUACKS WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM HOW YOU DEALT WITH HIM AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE IS ELECTED AGAIN FOR NATO?
>> I FOCUSED ON THE ISSUES.
I AM A NORDIC SOCIAL DEMOCRAT, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ME.
BUT ON THE CLIMATE AND ABORTION OR TAXES.
BUT OUR SECTOR GENERAL--AS SECRETARY-GENERAL I FOCUS ON THE ISSUE OF NATO.
IT WAS POSSIBLE TO HAVE A WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE THE MAIN ADMINISTRATION AS FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND NOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS THAT EUROPEAN ALLIES HAD TO SPEND MORE.
IT WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA AND VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT ACTUALLY PUSHED ALLIES TO LEAD TO SPEND MORE ON DEFENSE AT THE NATO SUMMIT IN 2014.
>> WHICH WAS YOUR FIRST YEAR.
>> YES.
SINCE 2014, EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE REALLY STEPPED UP.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IN 2014, ONLY THREE ALLIES MET THE SPENDING.
THIS YEAR, 23 ALLIES SPENT 2% OR MORE.
THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
LET'S FOCUS ON THE ISSUES.
AND THAT ACTUALLY HELPED.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT DANGER IS NEUTRALIZED, THE DANGER TO NOODLE--NATO FROM A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
>> WE DON'T HAVE GUARANTEES OR CERTAINTY IN POLITICS.
BUT I BELIEVE REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF U.S.
ELECTIONS, THE ALLY.
PARTLY BECAUSE IT IS VERY BROAD POLITICAL SUPPORT.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE U.S. CONGRESS, IT IS OVERWHELMING SUPPORT TO NATO.
SECONDLY, U.S. SECURITY HAS A STRONG NATO.
U.S. IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE SIZE OF CHINA, THE U.S.
REPRESENT 25% OF THE WORLD'S GDP.
WITH NATO ALLIES, WE REPRESENT 50% OF THE WORLD'S GDP.
SO NATO MAKES UNITED STATES STRONGER.
AND THIRDLY, THE MAIN CRITICISM FROM FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS HAS NOT ACTUALLY BEEN PRIMARILY AGAINST NATO COMMAND HAS BEEN ALLIES NOT SPENDING ON NATO AND THAT IS CHANGING.
>> WE ALSO KNOW THAT IS NOT YET ENOUGH.
WHAT DO YOU THINK NATO AND DO IN TERMS OF THE NARRATIVE GOING FORWARD.
WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO SAY PUBLICLY TO MAKE PRUDENT UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT AND TO MAKE UKRAINE UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT?
DO YOU HAVE TO SHIFT THE NARRATIVE A BIT?
>> I THINK WE NEED TO BE EVEN STRONGER.
PROVIDE MORE MILITARY SUPPORT ON TOP OF THE SUPPORT WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN DELIVERED.
BUT AS IMPORTANT IS THAT WE COMMUNICATE LONG-TERM COMMITMENT.
>> LOUD AND CLEAR.
>> LOUD AND CLEAR FOR A LONG TERM.
NOW PRESIDENT PUTIN BELIEVES HE CAN WAIT US OUT.
AS LONG AS HE BELIEVES HE CAN WAIT US OUT, THE WORLD WILL CONTINUE.
SO THE PROMISE IS THE STRONGER OUR MILITARY SUPPORT IS AND LONGER TERM WE ARE WILLING TO COMMIT, THE SOONER THE WAR CAN END.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN CHANGE THE MIND OF PRESIDENT PUTIN BUT WE CHANGE HIS--HE CANNOT BE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, HE WILL PAY A HIGH PRICE IF HE CONTINUES TO FIGHT THIS WAR.
AND THEN HE MAY BE WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND ACCEPT THE SOLUTION WITH UKRAINE AS A SOVEREIGN INDEPENDENT NATION.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT PART OF WHAT MAKES PRUDENT UNDERSTAND THE SERIOUSNESS AND INFLICTING ENOUGH PAIN TO BRING HIM TO SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATION, WHICH DOES NOT EXIST RIGHT NOW.
OBVIOUSLY THE UKRAINIANS WANT NOT ONLY MORE WEAPONRY, AND THE RIGHT KIND OF WEAPONS, THEY WANT THE RESTRICTIONS OFF THEM.
THEY WANT TO BE UNSHACKLED, TO BE ABLE TO STRIKE TARGETS, MILITARY TARGETS THAT ARE STRIKING THEM.
WHETHER THEY ARE WEAPONS OR AIR BASES OR WHATEVER.
MISSILE BASES.
IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN?
ARE THEY GOING TO GET THAT FROM NATO?
>> I UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE FROM UKRAINE TO HAVE AS FEW RESTRICTIONS AS POSSIBLE.
>> DOES MAKE SENSE.
>> THE REALITY IS THAT SOME DON'T HAVE RESTRICTIONS AT ALL AND MANY ALLIES HAVE LIFTED OR REDUCED THE RESTRICTIONS.
THAT IS THE RIGHT APPROACH.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT THIS IS, THIS IS A WAR OF AGGRESSION.
RUSSIA INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY.
ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, SELF-DEFENSE IS LEGAL.
UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT FOR SELF- DEFENSE.
THAT INCLUDES ALSO STRIKING LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS.
SO YES, UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT TO STRIKE THESE TARGETS AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROVIDE WEAPONS TO DO SO WITHOUT US BECOMING INVOLVED.
>> YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES WILL ACCEPT THAT ARGUMENT?
>> THE UNITED STATES HAS ALSO ALLOWED FOR SOME AGAINST LEGITIMATE TARGETS ON MILITARY.
BUT I AM TO CAREFUL TO GO INTO DETAILS, SOMETIMES IT IS NOT ALWAYS HELPFUL TO BEAST TO SPECIFIC.
>> AND SOME GOVERNMENTS DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT PUBLIC.
>> WHICH UNDERSTANDS.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE PART OF THE CONFLICT.
>> WHAT ABOUT, THOUGH, THE POLISH GOVERNMENT?
THE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS SAID THEY WOULD CONSIDER SHOOTING DOWN BALLISTIC MISSILES OVER UKRAINIAN TERRITORY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE A DUTY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.
IF THOSE MISSILES ARE GOING THAT WAY, WEST TOWARD THEM, THEY NEED TO TAKE THEM OUT.
>> WE NEED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN SHOOTING DOWN RUSSIAN MISSILES OVER NATO TERRITORY.
WE HAVE SEEN SOME AIRSPACE VIOLATIONS AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE ACTION.
>> HE IS SAYING OVER UKRAINE.
THEY COULD COME INTO POLAND.
>> THAT IS A TOTAL DIFFERENT THING.
WE HAVE TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH CAPABILITY SO THEY CAN SHOOT DOWN AND THEY ARE SHOOTING DOWN A LOT OF, A HIGH PROPORTION OF INCOMING RUSSIAN MISSILES.
BUT TO START TO SUCH SHOOTDOWN RUSSIAN MILITARY MISSILES OVER UKRAINE WITH NATO FORCES, THAT WILL MAKE NATO VERY EASILY PARTY TO THE CONFLICT.
AND NATO ALLIES DON'T WANT TO BE PARTY TO THE CONFLICT.
AND WE NEED TO THEN UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE THAN UNDERMINING ONE OF THE MAIN TASKS WE DEFINED AT THE START OF THE WAR.
WE SAID THAT WE WILL SUPPORT UKRAINE, WE DO.
WE ALSO SAID WE WANT TO PREVENT ESCALATION BEYOND UKRAINE, WE WANT TO PREVENT THIS WAR FROM FALLING INTO A FULL-SCALE WAR BETWEEN UKRAINE AND NATO AND WERE UP DUST AS EUROPE.
>> I THINK THE U.S. AGREES THE UKRAINIAN INVASION INTO KURSK HAS SENT A DEFINITE MESSAGE NOT ONLY TO THEIR ALLIES BUT ALSO TO RUSSIA.
IT IS ONE MORE WAY OF INFLICTING PAIN AND DETERMINATION AND RESOLVE.
HOW DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU REFERRED TO BEFORE, SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATION?
WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE, AND WHAT IS UKRAINE'S ULTIMATE SECURITY GUARANTEE?
>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO DECIDE WHAT ARE ACCEPTABLE CONDITIONS FOR PEACE TALKS AND THE SOLUTION.
BUT MY MESSAGES THAT WE DON'T KNOW WITH CERTAINTY WHEN PUTIN IS WILLING TO SIT DOWN.
BUT WE KNOW WITH CERTAINTY THE LIKELIHOOD FOR THAT TO HAPPEN INCREASES THE STRONGER UKRAINE IS LITERARILY.
SO MILITARY SUPPORT IS THE PATH TO PEACE.
AND SECOND, WHEN THERE IS AN AGREEMENT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
FIRST THEY TOOK RAINIER, WE SAID THAT WAS UNACCEPTABLE.
AFTER A FEW MONTHS, THEY TOOK EASTERN DONBAS.
THEN THEY HAD AN AGREEMENT THAT LASTED FOR A FEW MONTHS AND RUSSIA VIOLATED THAT AND PUSHED THE BIRDER--BORDER EVEN FARTHER WEST.
THEY HAD A FULL-SCALE INVASION.
SO NOW IF WE HAVE A NEW AGREEMENT, WE NEED TO BE SURE IT STOPS THERE.
AND THEREFORE, WE NEED SECURITY AND PEACE TO UKRAINE.
IT IS PARTLY ON THEM TO MAKE THEM DETER RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS ARTICLE FIVE.
NATO MEMBERSHIP IS THE ULTIMATE SECURITY FOR UKRAINE.
>> CAN I BROADEN OUT A LITTLE BIT?
ARC OF LIFE QUESTIONS.
YOU GREW UP IN NORWAY, AND IN YOUR YOUTH YOU WERE AN ANTIWAR OUTSIDE THE U.S. EMBASSY AGAINST VIETNAM.
YOU PROTESTED AT ONE POINT IN YOUR OWN COUNTRIES ENTRY INTO NATO.
HOW DID YOU CHANGE?
>> FIRST OF ALL, PERHAPS I DIDN'T CHANGE AS MUCH AS I BELIEVE IN YOU BELIEVE.
BECAUSE I AM STILL AGAINST WAR.
THE MAIN PURPOSE OF NATO IS TO PREVENT WAR.
THE MAIN PURPOSE IS NOT TO DETER--FIGHT THE WAR BUT TO DETER WAR.
WE HAVE DONE SO SUCCESSFULLY FOR 75 YEARS.
PEACE IS NATO'S MAIN TASK.
BUT ON NATO, I THINK WHAT I HAVE LEARNED WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s, BECAUSE AT THAT STAGE I TURNED THE ORGANIZATION TO BEING AGAINST NATO TO BEING FOR NATO.
I JUST BELIEVE IN THE IDEA THAT WHEN WE HAVE AN AUTHORITARIAN NEIGHBOR, WE NEED THE UNITY, WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER TO ENSURE THIS AUTHORITARIAN NEIGHBOR IS NOT ABLE TO CONTROL NEIGHBORS.
AND I CAN 1949, WHEN NATO WAS ESTABLISHED, NORWAY WAS THE ONLY COUNTRY NEIGHBORING THE SOVIET UNION.
AND RUSSIA SAID THAT WAS A PROVOCATION.
SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS USED AGAINST NATO BEING PART-- NORWAY BEING PART OF NATO IS THE SAME ARGUMENTS USED AGAINST EASTERN ALLIES BECOMING MEMBERS OF NATO.
>> YOU TALKED ABOUT RUSSIAN THREATS, THEY CONSTANTLY DANGLE, AND 16 IS CONSTANTLY RATTLING.
HOW SERIOUS DO YOU TAKE THAT?
YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO LET OFF ANY KIND OF NUCLEAR WEAPON?
>> WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO MONITORING WHAT HE IS DOING.
WE ARE SEEING RECKLESS RHETORIC.
THREATS, SEVERAL REDLINES THAT HAVE CROSSED AND NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.
SERIOUSLY.
THAT IS ALSO THE REASON WE HAVE COMMUNICATED VERY CLEARLY TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND RUSSIA THAT A NUCLEAR WAR CANNOT BE WON AND MUST NEVER BE THOUGHT.
THAT IS THE REASON WHY WE HAVE INCREASED MILITARY PRESENCE.
>> BACK TO YOUR TEENAGER HOOD.
IT HAS BEEN SAID, I'VE HEARD YOU SAY THAT AS A YOUNGSTER IN YOUR HOME KITCHEN, THERE WAS KITCHEN TABLE DIPLOMACY.
YOUR FATHER WAS A FOREIGN MINISTER AND HE HAD FREEDOM FIGHTERS, INCLUDING NELSON MANDELA.
HOW DID YOU REACT TO THAT?
>> IT WAS NORMAL THAT MY FATHER AND MOTHER HAD GUESTS AROUND THE KITCHEN TABLE FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
THEY WERE BOTH INTERNATIONALLY ENGAGED PEOPLE.
NELSON MANDELA WAS NOT A FREQUENT VISITOR BUT HE WAS THERE.
SERVED BY MY FATHER.
BUT THERE WERE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
MANY PEOPLE FROM SOUTH AFRICA >> WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT DIPLOMACY AND PEACE?
>> I LEARNED THE IMPORTANCE OF COMPROMISE.
THE WHOLE WAY THEY GOT RID OF OUR PARTNERSHIP WAS REACHING A DEAL.
AND THE PROCESS AFTERWARDS.
HOW TO RECONCILE THE DIFFERENT POWERS AND FORCES IN SOUTH AFRICA.
SO COMPROMISE IS A WAY TO FIND PEACEFUL SOLUTION.
>> UNFORTUNATELY IT DOESN'T LOOK VERY POSSIBLE IN MANY PLACES RIGHT NOW, OR IT IS UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.
IT'S REALLY TERRIBLE RIGHT NOW.
LET ME ASK YOU, YOU TOUCH ON AUTHORITARIANISM.
ONE OF THE WHOLE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT AUTHORITARIANISM, TOTALITARIANISM DOESN'T WIN.
KIND OF A BACKWARDS WAY OF SAYING WHEN YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER, YOU HAD THE WORST DAY OF YOUR LIFE WHEN THERE WAS BOMBINGS AND SHOOTINGS THAT COST 77 LIVES.
INCLUDING A LOT OF THE YOUTH LABOR PARTY.
AND YET, YOUR RESPONSE WAS TO CALL FOR MORE OPENNESS.
AND TO NOT BATTEN DOWN THE HATCHES AS MANY PEOPLE WOULD DO NOW.
WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
WHY WAS THAT YOUR INSTINCT?
HOW DO YOU THINK DEMOCRACY IS DRIVING GREAT NOW?
>> BECAUSE I BELIEVE TERRORISTS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DEFINE WHO WE ARE.
WE WANT TO BE OPEN, FREE DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.
AND THE TERRORISTS WANT THE OPPOSITE.
IF WE WERE TO SAY LIMIT DEMOCRACY, LIMIT OPENNESS, THEY ACTUALLY ACHIEVE THE GOALS.
OPEN DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES ARE MORE ASSIMILATED AGAINST ANY KIND OF TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE.
AND WHAT WE SAW IN NORWAY, TERRORISTS USED DIFFERENT POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, BUT THEY HAVE THE SAME--FAR RIGHT, WHITE, CHRISTIAN GUY.
HE MISUSED HIS RELIGION TO ATTACK PEOPLE.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT KIND OF IDEOLOGY THEY USE OR WHAT KIND OF RELIGION THEY BELIEVE AND IF IT IS WRONG.
WE NEED TONIGHT--TO UNITE.
>> A RAPIDFIRE ROUND.
ONE OR TWO WORDS.
WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE FOOD?
>> NORWEGIAN SALMON.
FRESH, UNCOOKED.
LIKE SASHIMI.
MIXTURE OF NORWEGIAN AND JAPANESE.
>> WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE MUSIC?
>> THE THINGS I LISTENED TO IN THE 70s.
LEONARD COHEN AND BOB DYLAN.
>> TALK ABOUT LEONARD COHEN.
THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR MOTHER AND LEONARD COHEN.
>> MY MOTHER WAS MARRIED TO A CANADIAN FOR THREE YEARS, SHE STUDIED AND THIS CANADIAN IAN CLARK WAS A FRIEND OF LEONARD COHEN.
AND LEONARD COHEN LATER ON GOT A NORWEGIAN GIRLFRIEND, THEY MOVED TO THE GREEK ISLANDS.
>> DO YOU LIKE HIS MUSIC?
>> YES.
>> WHAT IS THE LATEST BOOK YOU READ?
WHAT ARE YOU READING NOW?
>> THE LATEST BOOK IS VERY BORING, IT IS ABOUT NATO.
IT'S ABOUT AGGRESSIONS ABOUT NATO.
BUT I READ SOME NORWEGIAN AUTHORS, I HAVE SOME FRIENDS WHO WRITE VERY BEAUTIFULLY ABOUT NORWAY.
THE THAT IS ONE OF THE AUTHORS I LIKE.
>> WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NEXT?
>> YOU CAN ASK, BUT YOU WILL NOT GET AN ANSWER.
MAINLY BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW.
AND IT IS A PRIVILEGE TO SERVE AT NATO FOR 10 YEARS.
NOW, I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.
THAT IS A BIT SCARY.
BUT ALSO A FEELING OF FREEDOM.
NEW OPPORTUNITIES.
>> JENS STOLTENBERG, SECRETARY GENERAL.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> NOW TO GAZA.
THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS SIX WORKERS WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE ON A SCHOOL COMPLEX, THE HIGHEST SINGLE DEATH TOLL ON U.N. STAFF SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY INSISTS THE FIGHT WAS BEING USED AS A HAMAS COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTER.
VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK IS DIGGING UP WITH AIR STRIKES IN THE NORTH KILLING EIGHT PALESTINIANS, ACCORDING TO LOCAL HEALTH OFFICIALS.
AGAIN, ISRAEL SAYS IT IS TARGETING TERRORISTS.
JUST DAYS AFTER THE BIGGEST OCCUPATION IN THE OCCUPIED TORY TERRITORY IN TWO DAYS.
ISRAELI SETTLERS ARE ALSO STEPPING UP THEIR VIOLENT INTIMIDATION TACTICS.
WITH LITTLE TO NO INTERFERENCE FROM THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS AND SECURITY GUARDS.
NICK ROBINSON WENT TO THE WEST BANK TO DOCUMENT ONE EXAMPLE, PART OF A FAR WIDER PATTERN.
>> Reporter: THIS IS THE FAITH OF IS REALLY SETTLER INTIMIDATION.
IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.
>> NEXT TIME IT WON'T BE NEXT-- NICE.
THIS IS MY HOUSE.
>> Reporter: NEARLY AUGUST.
THE PALESTINIAN FARMER THEY HAD COME TO INTIMIDATE.
>> THIS IS YOUR FARM?
>> YES.
AND WHEN I WAKE UP, I SAW THE COWS GRAZING.
THE SETTLERS COWS.
>> NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE SETTLERS THREATENING HIM, PUTTING HIS LIVESTOCK ON HIS LAND.
>> THEY BRING THEIR SHEEP TO GRAZE IN OUR FIELD.
THE PLAN IS TO STEAL OUR LAND.
>> Reporter: A PLAN TO TAKE HIS LAND AND FARM THAT HE SAYS ACCELERATED WHEN THE GAZA WAR BEGAN.
>> ALL THOSE OUTPOSTS HAVE BEEN BUILT.
>> Reporter: ON THIS OCCASION, THE SETTLER IS GETTING CLOSER AND MORE AGGRESSIVE.
THE DAY WITH THE COWS WORST THAN PREVIOUS.
>> YOU WILL KILL ME?
>> YOU THREATEN ME IN MY HOUSE?
>> THIS IS MY HOUSE.
>> THE SETTLER, WHO HE SAYS HE RECOGNIZES, CLAIMING GOD GAVE HIM THE LAND.
>> I WAS GIVEN IT BY GOD.
>> Reporter: WHEN THE SETTLERS ARE HERE AND THREATENING YOU, WHAT IS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND?
>> I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.
IT IS LIKE LOCKING ME.
>> DID YOU CALL THE POLICE?
>> I TALKED WITH THEM SEVEN MINUTES.
>> Reporter: HE SAYS THE ISRAELI POLICE DIDN'T COME.
THEY DECLINED TO COMMENT TO THINGS REALLY GOT UGLY AFTER THAT CALL.
>> I WANT TO DANCE WITH YOU.
>> YOU LOOK SWEET.
>> AND IN HEBREW, HE THREATENS TO RAPE BILAL.
>> Reporter: THE SETTLER VIOLENCE THAT HE EXPERIENCED HAS SO WORRIED THE DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE CHIEF THAT HE WROTE TO THE PRIME MINISTER WARNING OF JEWISH TERRORISM COMING FROM THESE HILLTOP YOUTHS.
AND IT WAS DAMAGING ISRAEL'S INTERNATIONAL STANDING.
THE REBUKE WAS ENOUGH TO BRING STINGING CRITICISM FROM NETANYAHU'S RIGHT WING PRO- SETTLER SECURITY MASTER, ITAMAR BEN-GVIR, WHO CONTROLS THE POLICE.
BEN-GVIR CALLED FOR THE INTELLIGENCE CHIEF TO BE FIRED.
LATE LAST MONTH, 37-YEAR-OLD WAS LAID TO REST.
HE WAS THE SECOND PALESTINIAN TO BE KILLED BY SETTLERS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK IN AUGUST.
THE U.N. SAYS SETTLERS HAVE KILLED 11 PALESTINIANS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
ON THE STREET WHERE HE DIED FROM SETTLER GUNSHOTS, ROCKS LITTER THE ROAD.
THE ISRAELI SETTLEMENT THE ATTACKERS CAME FROM A FEW HUNDRED YARDS AWAY.
FOOTAGE IN THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGE CAPTURED THE MOMENT OF THE ISRAELI SETTLER ATTACK.
THE QUESTION EVERYONE HERE IS ASKING, HOW CAN THE SETTLERS GET AWAY WITH THE INTIMIDATION AND THE KILLING?
>> AND THE CONCLUSION THEY ARE COMING TO IS THAT NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT FEELS IT CAN ACT >> THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO SHOW THEY ARE TAKING SOME ACTIONS AGAINST SOME SETTLERS, BUT IT WAS CLEAR.
YESTERDAY, A PALESTINIAN WAS KILLED HERE.
WE KNOW THAT THE SETTLERS WHO HAVE BEEN SHOOTING TOWARD OUR HOUSE.
>> Reporter: BACK AT THE FARM, I ASK ISRAELI PEACE ACTIVIST, WHOSE GROUP RELEASED THE VIDEO OF THE SETTLER ATTACK.
WHY IS SETTLER VIOLENCE UP?
>> THEY DON'T HIDE ANYTHING ANYMORE.
THAT IS WHAT REALLY CHANGED.
>> Reporter: WHY DON'T THEY HIDE IT ANYMORE?
>> BECAUSE THIS IS PART OF THEIR IDEOLOGY.
AND THEY DON'T CARE.
BECAUSE THEY SEE NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM.
THEY BOMBED GAZA FOR 10 MONTHS WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIAN CASUALTIES.
AND STILL ISRAEL HAS TOTAL IMPUNITY.
BELIEVES AUTHORITIES KNOW WHO THREATENED BILAL, A NEARBY SETTLER.
>> WHY ISN'T HE ARRESTED?
>> BECAUSE THAT IS ALWAYS ISRAEL POLICY.
ON ESTATE VIOLENCE AS WELL AS SETTLER VIOLENCE.
TO EXPEL PALESTINIANS, MAKE THEIR LIVES MISERABLE AND STEAL THEIR LAND.
>> Reporter: THIS IS NICK ROBINSON WITH CNN.
I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE VIDEO OF YOU THREATENING THE FARMER.
WAS THAT YOU?
>> HE DENIES IT WITH HIM.
IT WASN'T YOU?
>> IT WASN'T ME.
>> Reporter: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS?
>> NEXT TIME I WON'T BE NICE.
THAT IS YOUR VOICE.
OKAY, IT IS MY VOICE.
>> Reporter: I WANT TO ASK HIM FOR AN INTERVIEW BUT HE HANGS UP AND I CALL AGAIN.
>> WHEN I ASK HIM TO TELL ME MORE ABOUT HIS CONVERSATIONS WITH THE POLICE, HE CHANGES THE SUBJECT.
>> I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.
I AM FREE.
I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG TO ANYBODY.
>> Reporter: WE BOTH KNOW THIS IS YOU.
WE BOTH KNOW THIS IS YOU.
LET'S SIT DOWN AND DO AN INTERVIEW POLITELY TOGETHER.
>> NICK, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK.
SECOND OF ALL, I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY IN YOUR COUNTRY THINK OF ME.
>> Reporter: I ASK AGAIN TO MEET HIM.
HE WANTS MONEY.
>> $10,000.
BYE-BYE.
>> Reporter: BILAL KNOWS THE APPARENT IMPUNITY ISN'T JUST PUTTING HIS LAND ON THE LINE, BUT HIS LIFE TOO.
>> IF HE WILL KILL YOU, HE WILL TAKE IT.
IF YOU ACCEPT THAT, HE WILL TAKE IT.
IN ANY WAY, HE BEHIND HIM.
>> AFTER THE RECENT PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE IN THE UNITED STATES, STILL UNDECIDED AMERICANS ARE WEIGHING WHO TO VOTE FOR.
AND WHILE OUR NEXT GUEST FAR PREFERS THE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, SENATOR RAND PAUL STILL IS NOT READY TO GIVE HIM HIS ENDORSEMENT.
HE IS DRAINING WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN WHY.
>> THANK YOU SENATOR RAND PAUL.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> THE DEBATE THIS WEEK, GIVE ME YOUR TAKE ON HOW EACH OF THE CANDIDATES DID AND WHAT STRUCK YOU.
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK CANDIDATES ARE LOOKING TO TRY TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE.
AND SO ABOUT 40, 45% OF PEOPLE IN THE U.S. ARE REPUBLICAN AND ABOUT 40, 45% ARE DEMOCRATS.
THERE IS ABOUT FIVE OR 10% UP FOR GRABS.
I ALWAYS LOOK AT A PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE AS HOW DO YOU DO WITH THOSE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE?
I THINK ONE COMMON ATTRIBUTE, NOT EVERYONE BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE DON'T LIKE CONTROVERSY.
THEY DON'T LIKE CONFLICT.
THE DINNER PARTY WHO SAY WE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT POLITICS OR RELIGION.
THEY DON'T REALLY LIKE TOO MUCH ENGAGEMENT.
I THINK THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR DONALD TRUMP.
BECAUSE HE IS AT LEAST BOMBASTIC AT TIMES.
AND IT IS HARDER FOR HIM TO ENGAGE THE INDEPENDENT VOTE.
THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE A LOT OF PRACTICAL THINGS THAT AFFECT EVERYBODY.
THAT IS THINGS LIKE THE PRICE OF GROCERIES, THE PRICE OF GASOLINE.
IF YOU ARE AN AVERAGE AMERICAN CITIZEN, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO AVOID-- AFFORD GAS?
I THINK THOSE ARE REAL THINGS WE ARE HAPPENING IN AMERICA THAT MANY IN THE MIDDLE CLASS ARE STRUGGLING BECAUSE THEY ARE LOSING THE VALUE OF THEIR PAYCHECK.
THEIR PAYCHECK IS NOT GOING AS FAR.
SO WITH INFLATION, THE AVERAGE WORKING FAMILY HAS LOST ABOUT $1000 OR TWO.
I DON'T KNOW IF HE DRILLED IN ON THAT ENOUGH TO BE EFFECTIVE.
I WOULD CALL THE DEBATE A DRAW.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT IN THE BEGINNING IS AN ISSUE YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT, WHICH IS DEFICITS.
AND HE CITED THE WHARTON SCHOOL AND ALL OF ITS PROFESSORS, SAYING HE HAD THE GREATEST ECONOMIC PLAN.
THE WHARTON SCHOOL SAID HE WOULD HAVE HAD MORE THAN $5 TRILLION TO THE DEFICIT.
YOU EVEN MENTIONED THAT TRUMP WHILE PRESIDENT ADDED 8 TRILLION TO THE DEFICIT.
THAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST DISPUTE WITH HIM.
IS THAT WHY EVEN THOUGH YOU SAY YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF TRUMP, YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN A FULL ENDORSEMENT?
>> THE DISPUTE IS NOT JUST WITH DONALD TRUMP, THE DISPUTE IS ALSO WITH KAMALA HARRIS.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ADDED 8 TRILLION IN DEBT, THE HERON-- HARRIS ADMINISTRATION WILL ADD ANOTHER 8 BILLION.
I THINK BOTH PARTIES ARE TERRIBLE AT SPENDING AND DEBT.
I HAVE BEEN PROPOSING WE SHOULD LOOK AT ALL SPENDING.
MOST PEOPLE SAY WE SHOULD NEVER TALK ABOUT ENTITLEMENT.
ENTITLEMENTS ARE TWO THIRDS OF I CONSIDER ANYBODY WHO TAKES ENTITLEMENT OFF THE TABLE FOR DISCUSSION TO BE A NONSERIOUS PERSON.
HARRIS HAS DEFINITELY TAKEN THAT OFF THE TABLE BUT SO HAS TRUMP.
BOTH OF THEM HAVE TAKEN TWO THIRDS OF SPENDING AND SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING.
THEN THE REMAINING SPENDING, WHICH IS ABOUT $2 TRILLION.
MOST REPUBLICANS TAKE THE MILITARY OFF OF THE CONSIDERATION AS WELL.
AND MILITARY GETS AUTOMATICALLY INCREASED AS WELL.
YOU ARE LEFT WITH A TINY SLIVER OF GOVERNMENT.
MOST OF THAT IS GOVERNMENT THAT DEMOCRATS SUPPORT AS WELL.
SO THERE REALLY IS A CONSTITUENCY FOR ALL THE SPENDING BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE NOBODY OR VERY FEW OF US WORRIED ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS THAT ONE DAY AMERICA WILL MAY WAKE UP AND HAVE NOBODY SHOW UP TO BUY OUR BONDS.
EVEN NOW WITH THE SLIGHT TICK IN INTEREST, WE ARE PLAYING A LITTLE OVER 3% ON INTEREST.
THE INTEREST IS NOW BIGGER THAN THE MILITARY BUDGET.
AT OUR BUDGET.
SQUEEZING OUT OTHER SPENDING.
I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED.
IT IS PART OF THE REASON I HAVE NOT ENTHUSIASTICALLY ENDORSED TRUMP, BUT I THINK HARRIS IS ACTUALLY WORSE ON SPENDING AND HAS SHOWN NO CONCERN FOR THE DEFICIT.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE TAX CUTS?
SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO EXPIRE?
>> THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT TAX CUTS IS WE HAVE DEBATED THESE FROM THE TIME OF REAGAN.
PEOPLE STILL SAY WHEN REAGAN CUT TAX RATES BECAUSE THE DEFICIT TO GO UP IT WAS SPENDING.
REAGAN WAS NOT VERY GOOD WITH SPENDING AND NEITHER WERE REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS BACK THEN.
REVENUE TYPICALLY GOES UP.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 2017 TAX- CUT, THERE IS A SLIGHT DIP IN REVENUE BUT IF YOU LOOK IN CYCLES, WHAT YOU FIND IS IN EVERY CYCLE, TAX REVENUE HAS GONE UP SINCE THE TAX CUTS.
THE CUTTING TAX RATES, HAVING THE GOVERNMENT TAKE LESS OF YOUR CHECK EXPAND THE ECONOMY, YOU GET MORE GROWTH AND GET MORE TAX REVENUE.
I DON'T THINK LETTING THE TAX CUTS INSPIRE--EXPIRE WOULD DO GREAT THINGS TO THE DEFICIT.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO REIGN IN ENTITLEMENT.
THAT ANYBODY WHO IS WILLING TO SAY LET'S FOCUS ON ENTITLEMENT IS BEING UNSERIOUS.
YOU, ANOTHER DOCTOR IN THE SENATOR BILL KENNEDY, LET'S LOOK AT WHAT WE CAN DO.
BUT LET ME GET SPECIFIC.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICAID?
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT RAISING THE AGE?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
>> THERE ARE 6 TRILLION WE SPEND, FOR TRILLION IS ENTITLEMENT.
MEDICARE, MEDICAID, SOCIAL SECURITY AND FOOD STAMPS OCCUPY ABOUT $4 TRILLION.
THEY ALL NEED TO BE REFORMED.
ONE OF THE BIG REFORMS IS RAISING THE AGE.
PEOPLE SAY, WHAT DO YOU WANT, YOU WANT TO PUNISH ALL PEOPLE WAIT LONGER?
NO, I ASPIRE TO BE AN OLD PERSON.
I AM ON MY WAY TO BEING THERE.
I WANTED TO BE THERE FOR ME.
THE ONLY WAY THERE IS ENOUGH MONEY IS TO GRADUALLY RAGE-- RAISE THE AGE.
WE ARE LIVING LONGER.
AND SOCIAL SECURITY WORK IN THE BEGINNING BECAUSE THE AGE CUTOFF WAS 65 AND THE AVERAGE LIFE EXPECTANCY WAS 65.
IT WORKED BECAUSE HALF THE PEOPLE DIED AND DIDN'T RECEIVE ANY.
IT WAS A VERY FISCALLY SOUND PROGRAM AND RAN IN SURPLUS FOR A LONG TIME.
NOW THAT WE ARE LIVING LONGER, IT HAS TO BE MOVED.
IN 1983, WE MOVED IT GRADUALLY TO 67.
IN MOST OF EUROPE, THEY HAVE ATTACHED THE AGE TO LONGEVITY AND IT DOESN'T GRADUALLY.
THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.
HOW FAST WE DO IT CAN BE DEBATED.
BUT THE AGE OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE HAS TO GRADUALLY GO UP.
WE HAVE TO FIGURE A WAY TO DISTRIBUTE OUR HEALTHCARE IN A MORE COMPETITIVE FASHION.
SO WE DON'T WASTE SO MUCH MONEY.
I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SOME OF THE THINGS THE DEMOCRATS DO.
I THINK THEY HAVE BEEN FOR COMPETITIVE PRICING FOR MEDICARE AND USING THE BULK PURCHASING TO BRING DOWN PRICES WITHOUT QUESTION.
I THINK WE SHOULD ALSO LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EVERGREEN THEIR PATENTS.
THEY TWEAK THE PATENT A LITTLE BIT AND THEY WANT ANOTHER FIVE YEARS.
THEY TWEAK IT AGAIN AND ONE ANOTHER FIVE YEARS.
THIS IDEA THAT PATENTS CAN GO ON 20 OR 25 YEARS IS SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE STOPPED.
I HAVE BEEN HERE 12 YEARS, I HAVE INTRODUCED A BILL TO RAISE THE AGE, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VOTE ON THE FULL SENATE FLOOR ON ANY REFORM OF MEDICARE, MEDICAID OR SOCIAL SECURITY.
OTHER THAN TO EXPAND THEM.
REALLY WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS CONTROL THE COST OF THEM SO THESE CAN REMAIN FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.
>> YOU SAID EARLIER THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS AND AGGRESSIVE.
YOU THOUGHT IT DIDN'T SERVE HIM THAT WELL.
TO ME, ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS WAS TONE.
THERE WAS A SENSE OF ANGER AND RESENTMENT THAT TRUMP HAS PUSHED.
AND THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IS TRYING TO DO A FUTURE -LOOKING THING.
DO YOU THINK THAT TRUMP, TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRANTS EATING DOGS AND THE RESENTMENT AND SAYING THAT AT THE END OF THE DEBATE, THE COUNTRY IS IN GREAT DECLINE.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT STRATEGY?
>> I THINK THAT IN TRYING TO APPEAL TO PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE, YOU HAVE TO TRY TO MEET THEM WHERE THEY ARE.
A LOT OF IT IS PERSONALITY AND THE WAY YOU PRESENT YOURSELF.
BUT I MEET PEOPLE EVERY DAY WHO WILL SAY WELL, I AM NOT A BIG FAN OF DONALD TRUMP'S DECORUM BUT I LOVE HIS POLICIES.
THAT IS WHAT I HEAR FROM REPUBLICANS WHO LEAN TOWARD VOTING FOR HIM.
THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN THAT EVEN IN THE INDEPENDENT CAMP THAT MIGHT NOT ALWAYS LIKE HIS PRESENTATION OR THE WAY HE PRESENTS HIMSELF, BUT ARE CONSERVATIVE IN THE SENSE THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, KAMALA HARRIS WANTS TO GIVE EVERYBODY $25,000 TO BUY A HOUSE.
THAT IS A RIDICULOUS ECONOMIC NOTION.
THERE IS NO MONEY TO GIVE THEM, WHERE IS SHE GOING TO GET IT?
IS SHE GOING TO PRINT THE MONEY?
MOST ECONOMISTS HAVE SAID THAT IS A BAD IDEA.
THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD SET PRICE CAPS ON THING BEING SOLD THAT MAKE GOODS WITH CHARGING TOO MUCH OR PRICE GOUGING.
EVEN ON CNN, THE ECONOMIST CAME FORWARD AND SAID THEY OUGHT TO RETHINK THAT AND THINK ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN VENEZUELA.
I THINK TRUMP CAN WIN ON POLICIES.
BECAUSE I THINK HARRIS POLICIES ARE SO BAD.
IT IS STILL A CHALLENGE TO GET THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE BECAUSE THERE IS A LONG HISTORY AND HE HAS TO CONVINCE THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE THERE IS A SOFTER SIDE OR MAYBE A SIDE I AM NOT SAYING, I SUPPORT HIM MORE THAN HARRIS.
I THINK HIS POLICIES ARE 1 MILLION TIMES BETTER THAN HARRIS.
BUT TO GET THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE, HE HAS MORE WORK TO DO.
>> YOU SAID YOU HAVEN'T ENDORSED HIM.
HAVE YOU TALKED TO HIM?
>> NOT IN A WHILE.
DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, I WAS PRETTY CLOSE AND TALKED FAIRLY FREQUENTLY WITH HIM.
AND I ASSUME THEY WILL NEED TO TALK TO ME ABOUT MY VOTE IF HE WERE PRESIDENT AGAIN.
AND I THINK THAT RELATIONSHIP WILL BEGIN AGAIN.
THERE HASN'T BEEN SO MUCH IN THE LAST YEAR BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED WITH ENDORSING.
I HAVE SAID THAT THINGS LIKE THE DEBT ARE IMPORTANT TO ME.
THE LOCKDOWN I THINK WAS A MISTAKE.
AND I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A PROMISE THAT THERE WON'T BE A LOCKDOWN AGAIN.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE THE U.S. FUNDING OF THE LAB IN WUHAN AND MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.
NOT ONLY JUST IN WUHAN, I AM CONCERNED WE ARE FUNDING RESEARCH TO CREATE SUPER VIRUSES, BASICALLY GAIN OF FUNCTION THAT DON'T EXIST IN NATURE.
WE ARE DOING THAT IN THE UNITED STATES AND I AM CONCERNED THAT AN ACCIDENT HERE COULD HAVE A DENTAL NOT OF 0.3% BUT 5% OF THE PUBLIC OR 10% OR EVEN 50%.
THERE ARE VIRUSES THAT COULD KILL 50% OF ALL-AMERICA.
THAT SHOULD BE MORE STRICTLY REGULATED AND I AM PUTTING FORWARD A BILL TO REGULATE GAIN OF FUNCTION.
I AM HOPING TO HAVE THIS WITHIN THE NEXT MONTH OR SO.
THIS WILL BE A BIG STEP FORWARD.
BUT I WANT ASSURANCES FROM DONALD TRUMP THAT HE WILL ASSIST AND BE SUPPORTIVE OF THIS TYPE OF LEGISLATION.
>> GOVERNMENT FUNDING COULD BE RUNNING OUT SOON.
THE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON HAS A JUGGLING ACT TO DO BUT EVENTUALLY THE SENATE WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.
DO YOU THINK THERE IS A WAY TO DO A CONTINUUM RESOLUTION OR IF IT CAME TO THE SENATE?
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I PROMOTED FOR EVER WHICH WOULD MAKE THE SITUATION BETTER AND ALLOW FOR A CLEANER DEBATE IS LEGISLATION TO KEEP THE ESSENTIAL PART OF GOVERNMENT OPEN WHEN WE HAVE A DISPUTE.
WHAT HAPPINESS WE HAVE A LOT OF REVENUE, WE HAVE $4 TRILLION IN REVENUE.
THAT WOULD PAY FOR MOST OF BASIC GOVERNMENT.
WHY DON'T WE JUST AGREE TO NOT SHUT THE GOVERNMENT DOWN WHEN REVENUE IS COMING IN WELL WE HAVE A DISPUTE?
THE OTHER THING WE COULD DO IS TRY TO DIVIDE UP THE SPENDING.
INSTEAD OF HAVING ALL THE SPENDING ON ONE BILL, IF WE PASS THE BILL INDIVIDUALLY, OUR FOUNDING FATHERS AND THE HISTORY OF CONGRESS WAS YOU HAD 12 APPROPRIATION BILLS.
THEN IF YOU HAD A DISPUTE OVER ONE, LET'S SAY WITH THE IRS.
BILLION TO COLLECT MORE TAXES, REPUBLICANS THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE TOO AGGRESSIVE.
SO WE HAVE A DISPUTE OVER THAT.
IF WE HAD ONLY THAT ITEM TO DISPUTE AND MAYBE THE DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY OR WHATEVER SHUT DOWN, THEN WE COULD HAVE A DEBATE OVER IT.
BUT FROM A FISCAL POINT OF VIEW, WE HAVE THIS DISCUSSION, WE HAVE A DEBATE, SOMETIMES GOVERNMENT SHUTS DOWN.
BUT WE NEVER REDUCE THE COST OF SPENDING.
EVERYBODY FINALLY FOLDS AND SAYS WE DON'T WANT ANY BLAME FOR SHUTTING THE GOVERNMENT DOWN.
BUT ALSO KEEPING IT OPEN AND NOT REFORMING IT IS BAD ULTIMATELY FOR THE COUNTRY AND FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY TO RUN $2 TRILLION DEFICIT.
>> YOU HAVE BEEN GENERALLY CRITICAL OF AMERICA'S OVERINVOLVEMENT IN MILITARY ACTIONS AROUND THE WORLD.
LET'S START WITH ISRAEL AND GAZA.
ON OUR MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL GIVEN THE WAY IT HAS BEEN SINCE ALMOST A YEAR NOW?
>> I THINK ALL FOREIGN AID SHOULD HAVE CONDITIONS ON IT.
THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR, WE GAVE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO ZIMBABWE.
HE WAS A TERRIBLE DICTATOR AND WE SHOULD HAVE PUT CONDITIONS ON IT.
UNCONDITIONAL AID IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.
THE ISSUE IN GAZA IS A DIFFICULT ONE.
I HAVE STAYED OUT OF DIRECTLY TELLING ISRAEL WHAT TO DO BECAUSE IT'S HARD.
THEY LOST 1200 PEOPLE AT A CONCERT, INNOCENT PEOPLE KILLED.
THEIR RESPONSE LARGELY HAS TO BE THERE OWN.
I WOULD SAY THAT WHEN I'VE BEEN TO ISRAEL, THERE IS MUCH MORE OF A PLURALITY OR DISCUSSION AND OPENNESS TO DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEWS.
IF YOU SAY SOMETHING HERE, YOU ARE OFTEN ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI- SEMITIC IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING THE PARTY PUTS FORWARD.
BUT FRANKLY, THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE DECISION.
I DID NOT VOTE TO GIVE THEM ANOTHER $26 BILLION.
I HAVE VOTED IN THE PAST BUT THE 3 BILLION SHOULD GRADUALLY BE PHASED OUT.
NETANYAHU SAID IT WAS NOT TO BE PERMANENT AND IT WAS TO BE TEMPORARY AND PHASED OUT.
ISRAEL IS A VERY RICH NATION.
ONE WAY OF NOT TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO WOULD BE TO QUIT GIVING THEM THE MONEY, THEN WE WOULDN'T INTERFERE.
BUT IT ALSO WOULDN'T BE OUR MONEY.
THE SAME GOES FOR EVERYTHING ELSE.
IF WE WANT TO GIVE 100 BILLION- A-YEAR TO THE UKRAINE, UKRAINE IS SAYING THEY WANT 60 BILLION A YEAR FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS.
THAT IS NOT COUNTING REBUILDING EVERYTHING.
SHOULD WE HAVE ANY SAY?
PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE TO DECIDE WHEN THEY ARE DONE FIGHTING.
IF WE ARE FUNDING THE WHOLE WAR, SHOULDN'T WE HAVE SOME SAY?
AND THE ONE THING THAT IS TO BE DISCUSSED, THEY WILL NOT DISCUSS THIS, THE ONE THING YOU CAN GIVE TO RUSSIA IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE IF THERE IS GOING TO BE ANY NEGOTIATION WOULD BE THE IDEA THAT UKRAINE WOULD BE A NEUTRAL COUNTRY.
THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE THEM GIVING UP TERRITORY.
PART OF THE DEAL COULD BE AND COULD HAVE BEEN RUSSIA RETREATS WITHIN ITS OWN BORDER IN EXCHANGE FOR UKRAINE AGREEING TO BE A NEUTRAL COUNTRY.
I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THAT, BUT IT WAS NEVER OFFERED.
THE OPPOSITE IS OFFERED.
ALL OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND NATO DEFENDERS ARE BEATING THEIR SHOE ON THE DESK THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST AND WILL BE MEMBERS OF NATO.
THAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST COMPLAINT IS THAT THEY WOULD BE IN A MILITARY ALLIANCE ON THEIR BORDER FROM A FORMER PROVINCE OF THE SOVIET UNION.
THAT WAS OBJECTIONABLE TO THEM.
SAME GOES FOR GEORGIA ON THE BORDER, ONCE A FORMER SOVIET SATELLITE AS WELL.
I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE THINGS AND THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMEBODY TALKING ABOUT IT.
ONE OF THE MOST GALLING THINGS I HAVE SEEN IS McCONNELL AND SCHUMER AND OTHERS WHO COME FORWARD AND SAY I'M A WELL, WE ARE NOT GIVING THIS TO UKRAINE.
MOST OF THE MONEY IS GOING TO OUR DEFENSE CONTRACTORS.
I FIND THAT JUST DISGUSTING.
THE IDEA THAT 100,000 PEOPLE DIED IN UKRAINE AND YOU ARE JUSTIFYING IT BECAUSE IT ENRICHES ARMS MERCHANTS.
I FIND THAT ABSOLUTELY DESPICABLE AND DISTASTEFUL.
WAR SHOULD NOT BE SOMETHING THAT IS GLORIFIED BY PROFIT.
THERE IS GOING TO BE PROFIT, I AM A CAPITALIST BUT I AM NEVER FOR ADVOCATING FOR MORE WAR SIMPLY FOR THE PROFIT OF ARMS MERCHANTS.
>> SENATOR RAND PAUL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> A LITTLE REVISIONISM ON UKRAINIAN HISTORY.
THAT'S IT FOR NOW, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOODBYE FROM LONDON.