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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
A SECOND ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.
WE LOOK AT THE INCREASING POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND TENSIONS AROUND THE ELECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.
>>> THEN -- >> WE KNOW THAT OUR TEAM POSSESSED CYBERSECURITY CAPABILITIES AND INFLUENCED OPERATIONS AND MILITARY PROCUREMENT.
>> RUSSIAN MEDIA OR RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE?
THE UNITED STATES ACCUSES BROADCASTER RT OF BEING FULLY INTEGRATED WITH THE KREMLIN'S INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS.
STATE DEPARTMENT SPECIAL ENVOY FOR GLOBAL ENGAGE.
JAMES RUEBEN JOINS THE SHOW.
ALSO AHEAD, HOW THE FLOW OF INFORMATION HAS SHAPED US AND OUR WORLD.
AN AUTHOR TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, "NEXUS" ABOUT INFORMATION NETWORKS FROM THE STONE AGE TO A.I.
♪♪♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, IS SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B.
PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLESHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETERSON AND JOAN GANSS COONEY FUN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
FOR THE SECOND TIME IN TWO MONTHS, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN THE TARGET OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.
IT HAPPENED SUNDAY WHILE THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS PLAYING GOLF AT HIS CLUB IN FLORIDA.
A SECRET SERVICE AGENT SPOTTED A RIFLE BARREL POKING THROUGH A FENCE A FEW HUNDRED METERS AWAY FROM WHERE TRUMP WAS THEN PLAYING.
THE MAN IN CUSTODY, RYAN WESLEY ROUTH, SPENT TIME IN UKRAINE AND RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT OTHER GLOBAL HOT SPOTS INCLUDING AFGHANISTAN AND TAIWAN, IN A SELF-PUBLISHED BOOK.
HE HAD ALSO CRITICIZED TRUMP ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
THIS MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY IS FRAUGHT AS THE RHETORIC AROUND THE ELECTION BECOMES MORE HEATED AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE INCREASES, AND THE NATION IS LOOKING AT GUNS.
ONE MAN WHO KNOWS ABOUT POLITICAL PRESSURE IS ANDREW McCABE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE FBI.
HE WAS ACTUALLY FIRED BY DONALD TRUMP BY WHAT McCABE WAS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED REASONS.
HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. ANDREW McCABE, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HEARD ABOUT THIS, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND FIRST?
WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS THE CAUSE FOR THIS?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY WHAT WENT THROUGH MY MIND FIRST WAS THE AMAZEMENT, THE FACT THAT WE HAVE HAD TWO SIMILAR INCIDENTS, TWO ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS ON FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN I THINK JUST NINE WEEKS, BUT IT'S A SAD, BUT KIND OF EXPECTED COMMENTARY ON WHERE WE ARE IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW WITH THE IDEA OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS LIKE MYSELF HAVE BEEN CAUTIONING FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS THAT ALL THE INDICATORS ARE -- WE ARE EDGING IN A DIRECTION IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WILL LIKELY RESULT IN MANY MORE INSTANCES OF POLITICALLY MOTIVATED VIOLENCE.
WE KNOW THIS FROM THE INCREASED LEVEL OF THREATS THAT PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, ARE FACING AT EVERY LEVEL, STATE, LOCAL, FEDERAL, EVERYTHING, AND WE KNOW THAT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ENTITIES DESIGNED TO PROTECT THESE FOLKS HAVE SAID THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY OVERWHELMED.
THEY'RE RECEIVING MORE THREATS THAN THEY REALLY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DEAL WITH.
SO IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, AND OF COURSE, WE'RE IN THE VERY END OF A HEATED POLITICAL SEASON WITH THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
SO IT'S A VERY TOXIC MIXTURE OF DANGEROUS THREATS RIGHT NOW.
>> SO I'M GOING TO GET TO SOME OF THE RHETORIC IN A MOMENT, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST ABOUT GUNS.
I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU THINK AS AN FBI MAN, THAT IT'S AS MUCH ABOUT GUNS AS ABOUT THE CONTEXT, OR DO YOU GIVE WEIGHT TO MORE OR LESS -- WE DO NOT KNOW AS YET WHAT REALLY MOTIVATED THIS PERSON.
AS YOU SAY, IT'S THE SECOND TIME IN TWO MONTHS.
THE FIRST PERSON WAS KILLED ON-SITE WHEN HE SHOT AT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND NARROWLY MISSED -- REALLY GETTING HIM, BUT IS IT THE GUN CULTURE AS WELL?
>> WELL, TO BE CLEAR, CHRISTIANE, I DON'T -- I DON'T BELIEVE THAT GUNS ARE CAUSING THESE EPISODES OF VIOLENCE.
GUNS DON'T HAVE AN INSPIRATIONAL IMPACT ON PEOPLE, BUT THEY DO HAVE A TACTICAL IMPACT ON PEOPLE.
THE PRESENCE OF GUNS, THE EASE WITH WHICH JUST ABOUT ANYONE CAN PUT THEIR HANDS ON A VERY LETHAL ESSENTIALLY WEAPON OF WAR IN THIS COUNTRY MAKES THE PROBLEM MUCH MORE DANGEROUS, MUCH MORE IMMEDIATE, AND HARDER FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT TO TRACK, AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT SAME PRESENCE, THE OVERSUPPLY IF YOU WILL OF GUNS THAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY, MAKES A LOT OF PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY WORSE.
YOU'RE FAR MORE LIKELY TO DIE OF SUICIDE BY FIREARM IF YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
YOU'RE FAR MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE A MASS SHOOTING OR SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY MAY.
SO ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE MADE WORSE TACTICALLY AND LETHALLY BY THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMPELLED TO DO THEM FOR WHATEVER REASON CAN EASILY ARM THEMSELVES WITH VERY DESTRUCTIVE WEAPONS.
>> THIS GUY, ROUTH, APPARENTLY, HE WAS THE GUY WHO WENT TO UKRAINE.
HE WAS INVOLVED IN TRYING TO GET FOREIGN FIGHTERS TO, YOU KNOW, TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS.
THE FBI OBVIOUSLY HAS SOME INFORMATION ON HIM FROM WHAT'S OUT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.
THEY'RE LAUNCHING, CLEARLY, AN INVESTIGATION.
WHAT -- WHAT IS THE -- I DON'T KNOW, THE PATTERN OF WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO NOW?
IS IT A GLOBAL SURGE?
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THIS WAS GOING ON OVERSEAS AS WELL, HIS HISTORY ANYWAY.
>> YEAH.
FOR THIS INDIVIDUAL, IT WILL DEFINITELY END UP WITH KIND OF GLOBAL LEADS AS WE LIKE TO SAY.
IT STARTS VERY LOCALLY, RIGHT?
YOU START AT THE CRIME SCENE ITSELF PRESERVING THE EVIDENCE OF WHAT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE BECAUSE UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN BUTLER, PENNSYLVANIA, HERE WE HAVE A SUSPECT WHO WILL -- WHO NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED.
SO INVESTIGATORS AND PROSECUTORS ARE ASSEMBLING THE EVIDENCE THEY'LL NEED TO PROSECUTE HIM, BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO UNDERSTAND HIS MOTIVE, WHY HE DID IT, WHAT SORT OF THINGS WERE DRIVING HIM, AND FOR THAT, THEN YOU START TO EXPAND BEYOND THE CRIME SCENE.
YOU EXECUTE SEARCH WARRANTS AT HIS RESIDENCE, MAYBE AT HIS BUSINESS, MAYBE AT THE HOMES OR HIS VEHICLE, OTHER PLACES.
YOU SPEAK TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE, ANYONE WHO'S BEEN IN CONTACT WITH HIM, AND CRUCIALLY, YOU TRY TO SEIZE AND EXAMINE EVERY PIECE OF COMPUTER MEDIA THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD, WHETHER IT'S A LAPTOP OR A PHONE OR A TABLET OR ANY COMMUNICATION DEVICES, HARD DRIVES, THUMB DRIVES, ALL THAT STUFF BECAUSE YOU WANT TO READ EVERYTHING HE WROTE.
YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE SORTS OF MESSAGES AND COMMUNICATIONS HE WAS HAVING WITH FRIENDS AND ASSOCIATES.
ALL THOSE PIECES HELP THE INVESTIGATORS UNDERSTAND WHAT TRULY DROVE THIS GUY.
THEY ARE LOOKING FIRST AND FOREMOST TO SEE IF ANYONE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, IF ANYONE HELPED HIM, HELPED HIM PLAN IT, HELPED HIM FUND IT, ANYTHING LIKE THAT, AND THEN ALSO TO SEE IF HE WAS TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT ALSO BE INCLINED TO ENGAGE IN THE SAME SORT OF CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, BUT THAT'S HOW THEY REALLY PIECE TOGETHER A RICH PICTURE OF THE SUBJECT.
>> NOW AS WE KNOW, AMERICA HAS HAD A VERY SAD AND VIOLENT TRADITION NOT JUST OF GUN VIOLENCE, BUT OF DIRECTLY TARGETING PRESIDENTS.
WE HAVE HAD PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED AND THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN NEARLY KILLED, WHETHER IT'S RONALD REAGAN, THE ATTEMPTS AGAINST GERALD FORD.
AS YOU MENTIONED TO ME BEFORE WE CAME ON AIR, TO THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE, TOWARDS THE CLINTON WHITE HOUSE, IT'S JUST A LOT OF THIS KIND OF VIOLENCE.
SO I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE RHETORIC THAT WE STARTED OFF TALKING ABOUT.
THE LATEST FROM DONALD TRUMP IN AN INTERVIEW WITH FOX SAID, QUOTE, "TALKING ABOUT BIDEN AND HARRIS, THEIR RHETORIC IS CAUSING ME TO BE SHOT AT.
WHEN I'M THE ONE WHO'S GOING TO SAVE THE COUNTRY, AND THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY IT FROM WITHIN, BOTH FROM INSIDE AND OUT."
WHAT -- AS AN FBI OFFICIAL, HOW DO YOU ASSESS THAT KIND OF PUBLIC STATEMENT FROM THE INTENDED VICTIM HERE?
>> WELL, I THINK IN THE BROAD SENSE, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THE OVERHEATED POLITICAL RHETORIC IN THIS COUNTRY IS CLEARLY HAVING AN IMPACT ON THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE EXTREME ENOUGH IN THEIR VIEWS THAT THEY MIGHT BE COMPELLED TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.
THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE WITH THAT STATEMENT IS, UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A STATEMENT FROM FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT IS HAVING EXACTLY THAT KIND OF EFFECT ON THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT?
IN THAT STATEMENT, HE'S NOT -- HE DIDN'T SAY, GEE, THE RHETORIC IS TOO HEATED.
I'M GOING TO TAKE IT DOWN A FEW TONES.
I'M GOING TO RECOMMEND EVERYONE IN MY -- WHO SUPPORTS MY CAMPAIGN TO START TO -- TO START TO REIN THEIR LANGUAGE IN, AND TO STOP ENGAGING IN THESE KINDS OF WORD BOMBS ON TWITTER OR WHEREVER ELSE HE POSTS.
NO.
INSTEAD WHAT YOU HEAR IS HE'S ATTACKING HIS ENEMIES AS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING THE COUNTRY.
HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SAVE IT.
THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF RHETORIC THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
THE SORTS OF WORDS THAT PUSH PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE'S NO CHOICE FOR THEM, THAT THEY HAVE TO STEP FORWARD AND ACT VIOLENTLY TO ELIMINATE THE PERSON THEY BLAME OR TO POTENTIALLY HELP THE PERSON THEY'RE SUPPORTING, ANOTHER EXAMPLE, A TRUMP SUPPORTER WHO SENT MAIL BOMBS TO PEOPLE IN MEDIA AND OTHER PEOPLE HE THOUGHT WERE ENEMIES OF DONALD TRUMP.
THIS IS VERY MUCH A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
WE WOULD DO WELL IF ALL POLITICIANS PLEDGED TO A MORE KIND OF RESTRAINED, VERBAL JOUSTING, BUT I FIND THAT KIND OF HARD TO BELIEVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN.
>> I THINK WE DO HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT YOU REMEMBER STEVE SCALISE WAS BADLY WOUNDED WHEN HE WAS SHOT AT A CONGRESSIONAL BASEBALL GAME, AND, YOU KNOW, AND HE WAS A BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER.
SOMETIMES THIS STUFF GOES BOTH WAYS, BUT IT'S VERY, VERY WEIRD FOR INSTANCE, TO HEAR ELON MUSK WHO OWNS ONE OF THE BIGGEST SOCIAL MEDIA OPERATIONS IN THE WORLD TWEETING EARLIER, AND ASKING WHY NO ONE WAS TRYING TO ASSASSINATE BIDEN OR HARRIS AS IF HE WAS ENCOURAGING IT.
HE THEN DELETED IT AND SAID IT WAS A JOKE, BUT IT'S -- IT'S VERY -- IT'S VERY ALARMING THAT KIND OF RHETORIC IN PUBLIC, AND DEFINITELY IT'S SORT OF A THIRD RAIL, AND I JUST WONDER.
A LOT OF FOCUS ON THE SECRET SERVICE, AND A LOT OF CRITICISM FOR WHAT HAPPENED THE FIRST TIME AROUND, AND POTENTIALLY NOW, ALTHOUGH THEY SPOTTED THIS ONE.
WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES FOR THE SECRET SERVICE?
>> WELL, THEY HAVE A LOT OF CHALLENGES, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST ABOUT ON THE VERGE, I THINK, OF RECEIVING SOME OF THE REPORTS OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO WHAT ACTUALLY LED TO THE PROBLEMS AND THE -- THE ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION IN BUTLER, PENNSYLVANIA.
WE'LL PUT THAT ON HOLD FOR A MOMENT, BUT YESTERDAY IS A REALLY INTERESTING EXAMPLE BECAUSE BY SOME MEASURES, THE SECURITY APPARATUS THAT THE SECRET SERVICE HAD IN PLACE ACTUALLY WORKED THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO.
THE ADVANCE AGENTS WHO WERE THERE TO KIND OF CLEAR THE AREA AND PROTECT THE PRESIDENT BEFORE HE ARRIVES TO WHEREVER HE'S GOING ON THE GOLF COURSE, THEY PERCEIVED THE THREAT.
THEY ADDRESSED THE THREAT.
THEY NEUTRALIZED THE THREAT IN THAT MOMENT, BUT WHEN WE PUT IT IN THE OVERALL PERSPECTIVE, IT'S CLEAR THAT THAT'S NOT SUFFICIENT.
EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SUCCESSFUL IN THE MOMENT, WE'VE GOT TO THINK BIGGER ABOUT CREATING A BROADER AND MORE COMPLETE PERIMETER AROUND THIS PRESIDENT, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE VAST NUMBER OF THREATS HE FACES.
SO THEY ARE CHALLENGED WITH A LACK OF RESOURCES.
THEY HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED WITH SOME QUESTIONABLE LEADERSHIP IN THE RE -- IN THEIR RECENT HISTORY, AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, ASKING FOR MORE THINGS IN CONGRESS IN THESE DAYS OF LIMITED BUDGETS IS NEVER POPULAR, BUT IF WE WANT OUR POLITICAL LEADERS TO BE PROTECTED, WE HAVE GOT TO SUPPORT INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE SECRET SERVICE AND OVERSEE THEM TO MAKE SURE THAT JOB GETS DONE CORRECTLY.
>> ANDREW McCABE, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
>>> AND NOW AMONG THE FACTS THAT WE DO KNOW ABOUT THE SUSPECT, RYAN ROUTH, WE KNOW HE WAS INTERVIEWED LAST YEAR BY A "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER ON FOREIGN FIGHTERS IN UKRAINE.
THAT REPORTER, THOMAS GIBBONS IS JOINING ME NOW LIVE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
CAN I -- I JUST FIRST WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU WERE PUTTING TWO AND TWO TOGETHER, REALIZING THAT THIS NAME WAS ATTACHED TO THE PERSON THAT YOU HAD ONCE INTERVIEWED?
>> YEAH.
I GOT A PHONE CALL YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, AND I HAD TO RACK MY BRAIN OVER A FEW SECONDS, BUT IT WAS SAD, BUT IT KIND OF FELT -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY EXPECTED, BUT I MEAN, NOT COMPLETELY SURPRISING.
>> WHY NOT?
WHAT IMPRESSION DID YOU GET OF HIM?
>> I MEAN, MY FIRST CONVERSATION, I THINK I ONLY TALKED TO MR. ROUTH ONCE ON THE PHONE.
HE SEEMED LIKE A VERY, YOU KNOW, DRIVEN GUY WITH A NOTICEABLE SOUTHERN TWANG OPERATING IN A REALITY THAT WE COULD SEE, BUT DIDN'T REALLY RELATE TO OR THINK WAS MAYBE THE REALITY THAT YOU AND I OPERATE.
>> SO WHAT KIND OF THINGS WAS HE SAYING?
BECAUSE IT APPEARS FROM YOUR REPORTING THAT HE WANTED TO HELP AFGHANS, THE ONES WHO WERE IN IRAN, GET OUT TO FIGHT IN UKRAINE.
DID HE CONCOCT SOME SORT OF WILD SORT OF THESIS ON THIS OR WHAT?
>> RIGHT.
I WAS PUT IN TOUCH WITH MR. ROUTH THROUGH A COLLEAGUE OF MINE WHO I WORKED WITH IN KABUL, AND HE HAD GONE THROUGH A SOURCE OF HIS WHO WAS TRYING TO GET OUT OF IRAN AFTER FLEEING KABUL IN THE SUMMER OF '21, AND, YOU KNOW, BY THE TIME I HAD TALKED TO MR. ROUTH, HE HAD HUNDREDS OF NAMES.
HE HAD SPREAD SHEETS HE SENT A VIDEO OF, AND HE JUST HAD THIS GRAND PLAN WHERE HE WOULD GET ALL OF THESE AFGHAN REFUGEES FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES, IRAN, PAKISTAN, AFGHANISTAN, AND GET THEM SOMEHOW TO UKRAINE, AND, YOU KNOW, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT MILITARY TRANSPORTS FROM ERBIL TO POLAND, AND SAID VERY SELF-ASSUREDLY, BUT ABSOLUTELY NOT ATTACHED TO ANY TYPE OF REALISTIC GOAL.
IN TALKING TO A FORMER RECRUITER FOR UKRAINIAN FOREIGN LEGION, THEY SAID HE KEPT BRINGING NAMES TO THEM WITH NO MEANS TO GET THEM INTO THE COUNTRY, AND EVENTUALLY HE WAS KIND OF LAUGHED OUT OF THE ROOM.
>> WOW.
THOMAS, A FEW DAYS AGO, YOUR COLLEAGUE, I BELIEVE IT'S THE SAME ONE YOU JUST MENTIONED, NAJIM.
HE SPOKE WITH ROUTH A FEW DAYS AGO.
HE DESCRIBED HIM AS FINANCIALLY DESPONDENT, LIVED OUT OF A CAR, $60 LEFT IN THE BANK.
DID YOU GUYS -- WELL, DID NAJIM HAVE ANY SORT OF FORBODING THAT HE MIGHT DO SOMETHING RASH?
>> NAJIM TALKED TO KIND OF THE INTERMEDIARY, AN AFGHAN IN IRAN WHO WAS STILL VERY CLOSE WITH RYAN, AND YEAH.
THAT'S WHEN HE BASICALLY REPORTED THAT THAT HE WAS OUT OF MONEY, LIVING OUT OF A CAR, BUT STILL SENDING MONEY TO AFGHANS.
>> BUT NO INKLING THAT HE MIGHT DO SOMETHING CRAZY?
>> NO.
THERE WAS NONE OF THAT THERE.
>> AND CAN I ASK I FINALLY, AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW, I'M JUST ASKING YOU AS A FELLOW REPORTER.
HAS THE NAME RYAN ROUTH BEEN PUBLICLY STATED BY THE -- BY LAW ENFORCEMENT?
IS THIS THE ACTUAL GUY?
>> AS FAR AS THE GUY THAT I SPOKE TO IN -- LAST YEAR AND THIS GUY, THE ONE WHO WAS ARRESTED?
I THINK THE PICTURES LINED UP.
I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE, YEAH, THAT'S HIS NAME.
>> AND THOMAS, YOU ARE THE NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT FOCUSING ON THE GUN CULTURE IF I COULD PUT IT THAT WAY IN THE UNITED STATES.
TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE INTERSECTION I GUESS OF YOUR WORK AND YOUR REPORTING, AND KIND OF WHAT HAPPENED, AND A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT ANDREW McCABE OF THE FBI SAID.
THE FACT THAT I THINK IT'S 120 GUNS PER 1 PERSON IN THE U.S. WHAT CHALLENGES IT POSES.
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, I THINK YOU LOOK AT BUTLER, PENNSYLVANIA.
I THINK YOU LOOK AT FLORIDA YESTERDAY, I THINK THE WEAPON IN QUESTION WAS A, YOU KNOW, GUN THAT WAS JUST REPORTED WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, AN OLD RIFLE DEVELOPED IN THE 1940s.
IT COST A COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOLLARS AND IT'S STILL FAIRLY ACCURATE UP TO A FEW HUNDRED YARDS, AND YOU CAN PICK THEM UP IN A LOT OF PLACES, AND I MEAN, YOU THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH THE U.S.
SPENT OVER THE SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR AND ON FIGHTING TERROR, AND YOU CAN PAY $500 AND TAKE A SHOT AT, YOU KNOW, A FORMER PRESIDENT AND IT'S HAPPENED TWICE.
I MEAN, I THINK IT'S -- IT'S A PRETTY, YOU KNOW, SCARY TREND.
HOW CAN IT NOT BE?
>> AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, 120 TO 1.
IT'S 120 PER 100 PEOPLE.
WHAT'S YOUR NEXT STORY?
>> YEAH.
THAT'S, LIKE, THAT'S ALWAYS THE QUESTION.
I THINK IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE THIS FOR A FEW DAYS, AND THEN SURFACE AND FIGURE OUT WHAT'S NEXT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR YOUR REFLECTIONS ON THIS.
>>> AND WITH FEWER THAN 50 DAYS UNTIL THE ELECTION, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO GET AHEAD OF ANY ATTEMPT BY FOREIGN POWERS TO MEDDLE IN THE VOTE.
ON FRIDAY, THE STATE DEPARTMENT REVEALED DECLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE THAT SUGGESTS RUSSIAN STATE-FUNDED BROADCASTER RT FORMERLY KNOWN AS "RUSSIA TODAY" IS FULLY INTEGRATED WITH THE KREMLIN'S OPERATIONS WORLDWIDE.
MY FORMER HUSBAND LEADS THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT CENTER WHICH HIGHLIGHTS PROPAGANDA AND DISINFORMATION FROM HOSTILE STATES AND HE JOINS ME FROM A BUSY STATE DEPARTMENT LOBBY TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.
JAMIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO ALL THE THINGS THAT YOUR DEPARTMENT AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN DOING ABOUT RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION IN A SECOND, BUT FIRST, THE ALLEGED ATTEMPT ASSASSINATION AGAINST TRUMP SECOND TIME, THE PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT HAVE COME OUT WITH THEIR STATEMENTS.
DO YOU THINK THOUGH, GIVEN YOUR ROLE WITH DISINFORMATION AND PROPAGANDA, AND THE TOXIC ATMOSPHERE, THAT ANY OF THIS PLAYS A ROLE IN THIS POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL, IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT WOULD PARTICULARLY MOTIVATE AN INDIVIDUAL TO DO SOMETHING AS HORRIBLE AS THIS.
THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT HAVE SPOKEN TO THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO PLACE FOR VIOLENCE IN AMERICAN POLITICS, BUT I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT AROUND THE WORLD, THE FACT THAT INFORMATION HAS BEEN GENERATED BY MOSCOW, BY BEIJING, THAT HAS TENDED TO OVERWHELM THE NORMAL DISCUSSION OF POLITICS, THE NORMAL GIVE AND TAKE OF POLITICS, TO EXAGGERATE THE DIFFERENCES, HAS CREATED MORE DIVISION IN OUR COUNTRY AND COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, THAT'S THE HOPE OF THE RUSSIANS.
THAT'S THE HOPE OF THE CHINESE, TO PROMOTE INTERNAL DIVISIONS, BUT I THINK WE'RE STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME THEM.
>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU SINCE YOU MENTIONED RUSSIA AND CHINA, A LOT OF SORT OF LOOKING AT IRAN NOW.
HAS IRAN TAKEN UP A MAJOR ROLE IN THIS, YOU KNOW, MANY YEARS OF DISINFORMATION AND HACKING AND ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE AMERICAN ELECTIONS?
>> WELL, AGAIN, THE GEC WHERE I WORK DOESN'T FOCUS ON AMERICAN POLITICS.
WE FOCUS ON WHAT GOES ON AROUND THE WORLD.
I AM AWARE OF THE FACT THAT OUR DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE HAS SPOKEN TO THE FACT THAT IRAN HAS DONE THINGS INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.
MOST OF MY WORK, HOWEVER, IS FOCUSED ON WHAT RUSSIA AND CHINA DO AROUND THE WORLD IN AFRICA AND LATIN AMERICA, IN EUROPE, WHERE THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT HAS NOW USED RT, THIS OFFICIAL TELEVISION STATION, AND THE LEADER OF THAT STATION ADMITS THEY'RE DOING EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA'S PRESIDENT WANTS THEM TO DO, WHICH IS TO USE DISINFORMATION TO TRY TO DIVIDE OUR COUNTRIES, TO TRY TO USE DISINFORMATION TO SOMEHOW MASK THE SIMPLE FACT THAT RUSSIA HAS VIOLATED THE FIRST RULE OF INTERNATIONAL POLITICS.
THOU SHALL NOT INVADE THY NEIGHBOR.
EVERYTHING THEY'VE DONE IN THE INFORMATION SPACE HAS BEEN TO TRY TO MASK THAT FACT, AND HOPEFULLY AND MOST AMERICANS I KNOW, AND MOST PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD UNDERSTAND THAT THAT SIMPLE VIOLATION CAN'T BE MASKED.
>> OKAY.
SO LET'S START -- I'M GOING TO RUN THIS LITTLE BITE OF SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN, YOUR BOSS.
WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THIS LATEST ESCALATION, IN OTHER WORDS, OUTING RT ON FRIDAY FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT.
LET ME JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE.
>> THANKS TO NEW INFORMATION, MUCH OF WHICH ORIGINATES FROM RT EMPLOYEES, WE KNOW THAT RT POSSESSED CYBER CAPABILITIES AND ENGAGED IN COVERT INFLUENCE INFORMATION OPERATIONS AND MILITARY PROCUREMENT.
AS PART OF RT'S EXPANDED CAPABILITIES, THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT EMBEDDED WITHIN RT, A UNIT WITH CYBEROPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES AND TIES TO RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.
>> SO THIS IS NOT JUST A U.S. INVESTIGATION.
APPARENTLY CANADA AND BRITAIN HAVE ACCUSED RT AS WELL OF THE SAME KIND OF THINGS.
CAN YOU DETAIL WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY DOING IN, YOU KNOW, IN THIS CASE?
>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT, CHRISTIANE.
CANADA, THE UNITED KINGDOM HAS JOINED US.
CANADIAN INTELLIGENCE REPORTS THEY AGREE THAT RUSSIA'S INTELLIGENCE STATION, RT, HAS BEEN USED FOR MULTIPLE PURPOSES.
WHAT IT'S CALLED WHEN IT DOES THAT IS UP FOR GRABS WITHIN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY.
PEOPLE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO DESCRIBE IT, BUT WHAT IT DOES IS NOT IN QUESTION.
I'LL GIVE YOU A VERY CONCRETE EXAMPLE.
RT, UNDER ITS CURRENT LEADERSHIP WORKING WITH RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS, ARE TRYING TO PREVENT PRESIDENT SANDU FROM BEING RE-ELECTED IN MOLDOVA.
THAT WOULD BE A TRAGEDY IF AN OUTSIDE POWER INTERVENED IN THE ELECTIONS IN MOLDOVA AND PREVENTED A VERY PRO-WESTERN CANDIDATE FROM WINNING, BUT WORSE THAN THAT, CHRISTIANE, THEY ARE USING THAT MECHANISM TO TRY TO GENERATE VIOLENCE IF THEIR PREFERRED CANDIDATE DOESN'T SUCCEED, TRYING TO GENERATE VIOLENCE SO THERE'S SOME SORT OF POLITICAL CHANGE, WHAT THEY MIGHT CALL A RED COLOR REVOLUTION.
SO THAT'S THE LEVEL AT WHICH THIS ORGANIZATION WORKING WITH RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE IS GOING TO, TO TRY TO INTERVENE IN THE DOMESTIC AFFAIRS OF OTHER COUNTRIES.
WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH MOLDOVA.
WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH OUR BRITISH COLLEAGUES, OUR CANADIAN COLLEAGUES, AND I HAVE TO SAY I'M VERY LUCKY THAT SECRETARY BLINKEN IS THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE POWER OF INFORMATION IN THESE MATTERS, AND HAS GIVEN ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT SANDU, TO LAY OUT FOR HER THE PRESIDENT OF MOLDOVA, ALL THE THINGS THAT RT AND THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT IS DOING TO TRY TO UNDERMINE HER GOVERNMENT.
HE'S ALSO WORKED WITH HIS BRITISH COLLEAGUE LAST WEEK TO GET THESE ALLEGATIONS MADE PUBLIC, WHICH IS NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO GENERATE WHAT I HOPE WILL BE A VERY IMPORTANT DIPLOMATIC CAMPAIGN THAT SECRETARY BLINKEN WILL LEAD SO THAT COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD UNDERSTAND THAT BY HAVING RT IN THEIR COUNTRY, THEY'RE NOT ONLY HAVING A -- AS SECRETARY BLINKEN CALLED IT, A FIRE HOSE OF LIES AND DISINFORMATION, BUT THEY'RE ALSO HAVING AN ENTITY THAT WILL WORK USING COVERT ACTIVITIES TO TRY TO UNDERMINE GOVERNMENTS WHEN THEY DON'T LIKE THE POLICIES OF THOSE GOVERNMENTS.
>> SO, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE HEAD OF RT.
SHE'S AN EXPERT TROLLER, AND SHE BASICALLY SAID, YOU KNOW, YES.
YES.
WE ARE DOING THIS, AND SHE, IN FACT, SAID, YOU KNOW, MY LIFE WILL NOT HAVE BEEN IN VAIN.
IN OTHER WORDS, WE'RE DOING THIS SUCCESSFULLY ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
WE'RE SPREADING OUR NARRATIVE.
DO YOU THINK THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE NOW IS ABOUT TRYING TO SHAPE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES LIKE MOLDOVA, THE UNITED STATES, WHOEVER, IN THEIR VIEWS ON UKRAINE?
IS IT SPECIFICALLY TARGETED IN OTHER WORDS?
>> WELL, YES.
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT ALSO HAS U.S. GOVERNMENT-FUNDED TELEVISION, U.S. GOVERNMENT-FUNDED RADIO, RADIO FOR EUROPE, RADIO FOR ASIA, THE VOICE OF AMERICA.
THOSE ARE FUNDED BY THE U.S., BUT THEY DON'T TAKE ORDERS FROM THE PRESIDENT, BUT THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT'S FUNDED RADIO STATION AND WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT, WHERE THEY'RE TAKING THEIR INSTRUCTIONS DIRECTLY FROM THE KREMLIN.
YES, THAT'S THEIR OBJECTIVE, TO TRY TO SOMEHOW MASK THE VERY SIMPLE REALITY THAT RUSSIA HAS DONE IN A DRAMATIC WAY, IN A COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE WAY, TAKEN HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF TROOPS AND ARE SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE OF UKRAINE, SIMPLY FOR BEING THERE.
THEY'RE TRYING TO INVADE AND TAKE OVER THEIR NEIGHBOR.
THAT'S RULE NUMBER ONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM.
THEY KNOW THE WHOLE WORLD IS AGAINST THAT.
SO THEY'RE TRYING TO USE THIS POISON THEY INSERT INTO THE INFORMATION SYSTEM TO TRY TO MASK THE SIMPLE TRUTH.
>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY MECHANISM TO COUNTER THIS?
BECAUSE EVERYBODY NOW TALKS ABOUT SANCTIONS BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU JUST OUTLINED ON -- BUT SANCTIONS, DO THEY REALLY WORK, AND PARTICULARLY IN THIS INSTANCE, WILL THEY WORK?
>> WELL, SECRETARY BLINKEN HAS IMPOSED THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE BLOCKING FINANCIAL SANCTIONS.
SO THAT MEANS AROUND THE WORLD WHEN THEY WANT TO WORK IN DOLLARS, IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
WE HOPE THAT WILL PUT A DAMPER ON THEIR ACTIVITIES AROUND THE WORLD, BUT THE REAL ISSUE HERE IS NOT THE SUPPLY SIDE OF THIS POISON.
IT'S THE DEMAND SIDE, AND SO WHAT WE'RE HOPING TO DO THROUGH THIS DIPLOMATIC CAMPAIGN IS TO INFORM THE WORLD, AND THAT'S WHERE WE HOPE TO HAVE SUCCESS, BY INFORMING THE WORLD OF WHO THESE PEOPLE REALLY ARE, WHAT THEY REALLY DO, HOW THEY USE THEIR -- THEIR OFFICES AND THEIR TV CAPABILITIES TO TRY TO GET GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES.
YOU'RE TALKING TO ME FROM LONDON.
IN EUROPE, RT IS FORMALLY BANNED.
THE BROADCAST LICENSES HAVE BEEN REMOVED.
OTHER COUNTRIES WILL MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES, BUT WE CERTAINLY HOPE WHEN THEY MAKE THOSE DECISIONS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING ABOUT IT.
WE'RE TRYING TO EXPOSE SO THAT WE CAN DISRUPT THEIR ACTIVITIES BY HELPING OTHER GOVERNMENTS COME TO THEIR OWN DECISIONS ABOUT HOW TO TREAT THIS -- THIS NON-TELEVISION STATION ACTIVITIES, AND THE PROPAGANDA AND LIES THAT COME OUT OF RT.
>> SO SWERVING A LITTLE BIT TO AN ISSUE THAT WAS MADE PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, WEEKS AGO, LAST MONTH, IN FACT, THAT IS THE PRISONER SWAP.
EVAN GERSHKOVICH, SWAPPED ALONG WITH OTHERS BEING HELD BY RUSSIA FOR A NUMBER OF RUSSIANS INCLUDING A CHIEF -- WE MIGHT CALL HIM A VILLAIN, A CONVICTED ASSASSIN, A RUSSIAN HELD BY GERMANY.
HOW DID THIS WORK?
BECAUSE YOU WERE QUOTED AS BEING PART OF THIS, YOU KNOW, IDEA ALONG WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT HOSTAGE ENVOY ROGER CARSTONS.
YOU WERE TRYING TO GET THIS ONE FOR ONE STOP.
IT DIDN'T WORK.
EVERYBODY WANTED TO GET GERSHKOVICH AND NAVALNY OUT.
IT DIDN'T WORK.
WHAT'S THE BACK STORY?
>> THE BACK STORY ON THIS IS REALLY QUITE FASCINATING AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT SOME DAY THE FULL DETAILS OF IT GET TOLD, BUT I CAN TELL YOU A FEW THINGS THAT ARE INTERESTING, WHICH IS THAT OFTEN IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS, THE REAL WIZARDS OF THEM ARE WHAT WE CALL THE BACK CHANNELS AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN SPEAK TO GOVERNMENTS AND GET THEM TO TELL THEM THINGS THEY WOULDN'T SAY TO ANOTHER GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, MY COLLEAGUE, CHRISTO WORKED WITH A NAVALNY TEAM, AND I LEARNED FROM HIM SOME IMPORTANT INFORMATION.
I LEARNED THAT INDEED THE GERMANS WERE PREPARED TO RELEASE THIS COLD-BLOODED KILLER ONLY IF THERE WAS A MORAL IMPERATIVE TO DO SO, AND THE MORAL IMPERATIVE THEY SAW INITIALLY WAS THE RELEASE OF NAVALNY, WHO HAD BECOME A FOLK HERO INSIDE GERMANY, AND SECRETARY BLINKEN WAS ABLE TO TAKE THAT IDEA OF BRINGING INTO THE EQUATION, A NEW PERSON.
IN OTHER WORDS, ENLARGING THE PROBLEM.
SOMETIMES WHEN YOU GET STUCK, I THINK THIS COMES FROM PRESIDENT EISENHOWER, WHEN YOU GET STUCK, YOU HAVE TO ENLARGE THE PROBLEM.
SO SECRETARY BLINKEN ENLARGED THE PROBLEM BY RAISING WITH HIS COUNTERPART, THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF GERMANY, THE IDEA OF RELEASING SOMEBODY THAT WE KNEW, AGAIN, FROM THESE BACK CHANNELS, FROM CHRISTO THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN REALLY CARED ABOUT HIM.
THEY HAD GONE SHOOTING TOGETHER.
THEY HAD DONE WORK TOGETHER.
PUTIN REALLY WANTED TO GET HIM BACK.
SO BY GETTING THIS INFORMATION, SECRETARY BLINKEN WAS ABLE TO GO TO THE FOREIGN MINISTER AND RAISE THE QUESTION WITH HER.
SHE RAISED THIS REAL PROBLEM.
IT'S CALLED MORAL HAZARD.
HOW DO YOU CREATE A SITUATION WHERE SOMEBODY IS A COLD-BLOODED KILLER AND HE HASN'T FINISHED HIS SENTENCE?
HE WAS SENTENCED AND HE DIDN'T FINISH IT.
WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?
THIS WAS A SUCCESSFUL OPERATION IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT DID THE HARDEST THING WHICH WAS GET THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR TO AGREE TO RELEASE HIM, AND JAKE SULLIVAN WORKED FOR HIM, AND BILL BURNS, THE HEAD OF THE CIA AS ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN, I THINK MOST OF IT, TALKED ABOUT PUBLICLY.
THEY WERE ABLE TO KICK INTO GEAR, THIS UNPRECEDENTED TRADE, THE LARGEST SINGLE PRISONERS, AND WE GOT 16 PEOPLE OUT, NOT ONLY ALL OF THE PRISONERS THAT WERE HELD, BUT -- AND THE RUSSIANS GOT EIGHT BECAUSE THIS WAS A VERY, VERY COMPLEX DEAL.
WE ENLARGED THE PROBLEM, 16 FOR 8.
THERE WERE SEVERAL COUNTRIES INVOLVED, INCLUDING TURKEY WHERE THEY ALL WERE TRANSFERRED.
>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN GIVE ME DETAILS, BUT HOW DID YOU KNOW PUTIN WOULD GO FOR IT?
THAT'S ONE QUESTION, AND THEN ALSO YOU DIDN'T GET NAVALNY OUT.
>> WELL, THAT'S SOMETHING TRAGIC, AND OBVIOUSLY THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR NAVALNY'S DEATH ARE WELL KNOWN, AND THEY SIT IN THE KREMLIN.
THAT'S WHY HE'S DEAD.
WAS IT POSSIBLE TO GET NAVALNY OUT?
WE'LL NEVER KNOW.
WE DO KNOW THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN REALLY, REALLY CARED ABOUT KRASIKOV.
WE KNEW HE WAS WILLING TO DO A LOT.
WE HEARD THROUGH THE BACK CHANNELS HE MIGHT HAVE EVEN TRADED NAVALNY FOR HIM.
THAT NEVER HAD TIME TO COME THE FRUITION BECAUSE HE DIED.
WHY DID HE DIE?
ONLY PRESIDENT PUTIN KNOWS THE ANSWER TO THAT, BUT HE'S STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR IT AS PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SECRETARY BLINKEN HAS SAID.
THE BACK CHANNELS WERE THE ONES THAT WERE ABLE TO TELL US THROUGH, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES GOVERNMENTS DON'T SPEAK TO EACH OTHER FREELY.
THEY DON'T SPEAK HYPOTHETICALLY.
THEY DON'T RUMINATE ON POSSIBILITIES.
THEY DON'T SAY, WELL, IF WE DID THIS, YOU COULD DO THAT.
THAT'S WHAT YOU CAN DO THROUGH THE BACK CHANNELS, AND ROGER CARSTONS, AND SECRETARY BLINKEN, I PROVIDED INFORMATION TO FROM THESE BACK CHANNELS, THAT TOLD US TWO IMPORTANT THINGS, ONE, THAT THERE WERE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH GERMANY WOULD TRADE AND GIVE UP THIS MORAL HAZARD AND PUT HIM IN THE EQUATION.
>> I JUST WANT TO PUT IT OUT THERE.
KRASIKOV WAS CONVICTED OF ASSASSINATING PUTIN'S OPPONENT IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN GERMANY.
THAT'S WHO HE IS.
CAN I JUST ASK YOU THEN, LOOK.
IF YOU COULD AS A NATION, AS A DIPLOMAT, AS AN ADMINISTRATION, COME UP WITH THAT KIND OF DEAL WITH AN ADVERSARY LIKE PUTIN RIGHT NOW, DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH SOME KIND OF DEAL TO END THIS WAR IN UKRAINE?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S FIRST OF ALL, AS USUAL, CHRISTIANE, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION OF OUR TIME, FRANKLY.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST WAR THAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD THAT'S GONE ON IN THE WORLD IN DECADES.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS BATTLING IT OUT, WORLD WAR I STYLE EVERY DAY ALONG -- A LONG BATTLE, LINE OF CONTROL.
THIS IS A MAJOR WAR.
SOLVING THAT WAR IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAR WAS STARTED BY PRESIDENT PUTIN, AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHEN HE WANTS TO GIVE UP BECAUSE HE'S NOT GOING TO SUCCEED.
HE'S GOING TO FAIL.
HE'S NOT GOING TO TAKE OVER UKRAINE.
>> OBVIOUSLY THIS WEEKEND HAS BEEN FULL OF THE CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT LIFTING THE RESTRICTIONS ON HOW TO USE WEAPONS THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, THAT ARE GIVEN TO UKRAINE.
WILL THAT HAPPEN?
>> PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SECRETARY BLINKEN, MY DIRECT BOSS, HAVE ONLY SAID THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH OUR BRITISH COLLEAGUES.
WE HAVE THE SAME OBJECTIVE, HOW TO PUT INTO THE HANDS OF UKRAINE THE WEAPONS THEY NEED TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY AND DEFEAT THIS INVASION, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SECRETARY BLINKEN, AND PRIME MINISTER OF BRITAIN TALKED ABOUT THAT JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.
THAT'S AN ONGOING SUBJECT, AND I'M NOT GOING TO GET AHEAD OF THEM.
>> AND THAT CONVERSATION GOES RIGHT TO THE HEART OF OUR NEXT GUEST'S THESIS.
IN HIS NEW BOOK "NEXUS: A BRIEF HISTORY OF INFORMATION NETWORKS FROM THE STONE AGE TO A.I.," BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN LOOKS AT HOW WE GOT HERE AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO NEXT.
IN AN AGE WHERE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE POSES UNIQUE CHALLENGES.
HE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON NOW.
>> THANK YOU, AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU.
IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE AGAIN.
>> YOUR BEST-SELLING BOOK "SAPIENS," ABOUT HOW WE, AS A SPECIES, BECAME DOMINANT AND IT'S BASICALLY ABOUT HOW WE WERE ABLE TO FORM NETWORKS OF COOPERATION.
YOUR NEW BOOK "NEXUS," IS ABOUT COMMUNICATIONS AND HOW THEY HELPED TO FORM THOSE NETWORKS, BUT IT'S RATHER PESSIMISTIC.
I THINK THE WAY YOU SAY, THE WAY THESE NETWORKS WERE BUILT PREDISPOSES US TO USE THAT POWER UNWISELY.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT THEME.
>> WELL, THE BASIC QUESTION OF THE BOOK, OF "NEXUS," IS IF HUMANS ARE SO SMART, WHY ARE WE SO STUPID?
WE'VE NAMED OUR SPECIES HOMO SAPIENS.
WHICH MEANS WISE HUMANS, AND WE KNOW A LOT MORE THAN ANY OTHER ANIMAL ON THE PLANET.
WE'VE REACHED THE MOON.
WE CAN SPLIT THE ATOM.
WE CAN DECODE AND WRITE DNA, AND NEVERTHELESS, WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF DESTROYING OURSELVES AND MUCH OF THE ECOSYSTEM.
SO THIS IS THE PARADOX, THE CENTER OF THE BOOK, AND OF COURSE, HUMANS HAVE BEEN CONCERNED WITH THIS PARADOX THROUGHOUT HISTORY, AND MANY MYTHOLOGIES AND THEOLOGIES, THEY BLAME HUMAN NATURE, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HUMAN NATURE, WHICH CAUSES US TO BE SO SELF-DESTRUCTIVE.
THE BOOK "NEXUS" GIVES A DIFFERENT ANSWER.
THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH OUR NATURE.
IT'S WITH OUR INFORMATION.
IF YOU GIVE GOOD PEOPLE BAD INFORMATION, THEY MAKE BAD DECISIONS.
THEY MAKE SELF-DESTRUCTIVE DECISIONS, AND WE ARE NOW SEEING IT ALL AROUND US, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE MOST SOPHISTICATED INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY IN HISTORY, AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE LOSING THE ABILITY TO TALK WITH EACH OTHER, TO LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
YOU KNOW, THERE IS MAYBE ONE THING THAT DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS IN THE UNITED STATES CAN AGREE ON, IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC CONVERSATION IS BREAKING DOWN.
EVERYBODY ACCUSES THE OTHER SIDE, OF COURSE, BUT THE BASIC FACT IS THAT THIS -- THIS ABILITY, WHICH SUSTAINS DEMOCRACY TO HOLD REASONABLE CONVERSATION, IT IS BREAKING DOWN AT EXACTLY THE SAME MOMENT THAT WE HAVE SUPPOSEDLY, THE BEST INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY IN HISTORY.
>> YOU SAY THE FLAWS AREN'T IN OUR NATURE.
IT'S IN OUR COMMUNICATIONS NETWORKS.
>> YES.
>> WHAT ARE THE FLAWS IN THOSE COMMUNICATION NETWORKS?
>> THE BASIC MISUNDERSTANDING IS ABOUT WHAT INFORMATION DOES, WHAT INFORMATION IS.
INFORMATION ISN'T TRUTH.
THIS NAIVE VIEW WHICH DOMINATES IN PLACES LIKE SILICON VALLEY, THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FLOOD THE WORLD WITH MORE AND MORE INFORMATION AND AS A RESULT, WE WILL HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE AND MORE WISDOM, THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE BECAUSE MOST INFORMATION IS JUNK.
THE TRUTH IS A VERY RARE AND COSTLY KIND OF INFORMATION.
THE BASIC FUNCTION OF INFORMATION IN MOST CASES, IS NOT TO REVEAL THE TRUTH.
THE BASIC FUNCTION IS TO CONNECT.
THE EASIEST WAY TO CONNECT LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE IS NOT WITH THE TRUTH.
IT IS WITH FICTIONS AND FANTASIES AND MASS DELUSIONS.
>> AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THAT?
SHOULD GOVERNMENTS ACTUALLY STEP IN WHILE WATCHING THAT HAPPEN A BIT?
>> TWO THINGS THAT SHOULD BE DONE AT THE GOVERNMENT LEVEL, AND THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE DONE ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.
ON THE GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL, THE TWO MOST OBVIOUS THINGS TO DO IS TO BAN FAKE HUMANS THAT WE DON'T WANT ALGORITHMS PRETENDING TO BE HUMANS, AND THEREBY DISTORTING OUR INFORMATION SYSTEMS.
IF YOU GO ONLINE, LET'S SAY TO TWITTER, AND YOU SEE THAT THE STORY HAS A LOT OF TRACTION, A LOT OF TRAFFIC, AND YOU THINK, OH.
A LOT OF HUMANS ARE INTERESTED IN THIS.
SO I SHOULD ALSO GET INVOLVED, BUT ACTUALLY IT'S NOT HUMANS.
IT'S BOTS AND ALGORITHMS.
THIS SHOULD BE BANNED.
SO WE SHOULDN'T HAVE A SITUATION WHEN ALGORITHMS PRETEND TO BE HUMANS, AND THEY ARE RUNNING OUR CONVERSATIONS.
THE OTHER THING IS THAT CORPORATIONS SHOULD BE LIABLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THEIR ALGORITHMS.
WHENEVER YOU TALK ABOUT IT WITH THE BIG TECH COMPANIES, THEY IMMEDIATELY RAISE THE FLAG OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
WE DON'T WANT TO CENSOR OUR USERS.
THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE HUMAN USERS.
HUMANS PRODUCE ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF CONTENT.
SOME OF IT IS HATE AND GREED, BUT THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF OTHER GOOD CONTENT.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE CORPORATE ALGORITHMS OF TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND TIKTOK AND SO FORTH, THEY DELIBERATELY SPREAD THE HATE AND THE FEAR AND THE GREED BECAUSE THIS IS GOOD FOR THEIR BUSINESS INTERESTS, AND THIS IS WHAT THEY SHOULD BE LIABLE FOR, FOR THE DECISIONS AND ACTIONS OF THEIR ALGORITHMS, NOT FOR WHAT THE HUMAN USERS ARE DOING.
>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HUMANS HAVING SOME MISINFORMATION, AND THEN YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE WAY THE ALGORITHMS WORK.
IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ORGANIC INFORMATION SYSTEM, MEANING HUMAN INFORMATION SYSTEM, AND AN INORGANIC ONE?
>> YES.
THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENCES.
ONE IS THAT ORGANIC ENTITIES LIKE US, LIKE HUMAN BEINGS, WE WORK IN CYCLES.
THERE IS DAY AND NIGHT, WINTER AND SUMMER.
SOMETIMES WE ARE ACTIVE.
SOMETIMES WE NEED REST AND SLEEP.
THE OTHERS ARE TIRELESS.
THEY NEVER NEED TO REST.
THEY ARE NOT ORGANIC, AND WHAT WE SEE IN THE WORLD NOW IS THAT THEY INCREASINGLY FORCE US TO WORK ACCORDING TO THEIR PACE.
THERE IS NEVER ANY TIME TO REST.
THE NEWS CYCLES IS ALWAYS ON.
THE MARKETS ARE ALWAYS ON.
THE POLITICAL GAME IS ON ALWAYS, AND IF YOU FORCE AN ORGANIC ENTITY TO BE ON ALL THE TIME, TO BE ALWAYS ACTIVE, ALWAYS EXCITED, IT EVENTUALLY COLLAPSES AND DIES, AND, YOU KNOW, THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD AND ABUSED WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE TODAY IS THE WORD EXCITED.
A LOT OF PEOPLE MISTAKE THE WORD EXCITED FOR HAPPY, LIKE, THEY MEET SOMEBODY, LIKE, THEY SAY I'M SO EXCITED TO MEET YOU.
THEY PUBLISH A NEW BOOK.
OH, THIS IS SO EXCITING.
EXCITEMENT IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD.
EXCITEMENT FOR AN ORGANIC BEING LIKE A HUMAN BEING MEANS THAT YOUR NERVOUS SYSTEM AND YOUR BRAIN ARE VERY ENGAGED, VERY ACTIVE.
NOW IF YOU KEEP AN ORGANIC SYSTEM VERY EXCITED, ALL THE TIME, IT BREAKS DOWN, COLLAPSES, AND EVENTUALLY DIES, AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS NOW TO DEMOCRACIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO HUMANITY.
WE ARE FAR TOO EXCITED.
WE NEED TIME TO REST.
WE NEED TO KIND OF SLOW DOWN, AND BECAUSE WE GIVE INCREASING CONTROL OF THE WORLD TO TIRELESS, NONORGANIC ALGORITHMS THAT NEVER NEED TO REST AND CAN JUST INCREASE THE EXCITEMENT ALL THE TIME, WE ARE BREAKING DOWN.
WE NEED MORE REST AND NOT EXCITEMENT.
IN POLITICS, IN ECONOMICS, IN MANY FIELDS.
>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND WE SAY HOW IT'S GOING TO CHANGE THE WAY WE DISTRIBUTE INFORMATION AND EITHER EMPOWER PEOPLE OR EMPOWER TYRANNIES, SOMETIMES PEOPLE REFLECT BACK ON THE LAST HUGE ADVANCE IN INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY SPREAD WHICH WAS GUTENBERG 500 YEARS AGO DOING THE PRINTING PRESS.
YOU DEBUNKED THAT.
YOU SAY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS VERY INSIDIOUS COMPARED TO THE PRETTY GOOD THINGS THAT COME OUT OF THE PRINTING PRESS.
>> WELL, THERE IS A MYTH THAT, YOU KNOW, GUTENBERG BROUGHT PRINT TO EUROPE AND AS A RESULT, HE GOT A SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION AND ALL THE WONDERS OF MODERN SCIENCE.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY INACCURATE AND MISLEADING VIEW OF HISTORY.
ALMOST 200 YEARS PASSED FROM THE INVENTION OF PRINT UNTIL THE FLOWERING OF THE SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION.
DURING THESE 200 YEARS, THE MAIN EFFECTS OF PRINT ON EUROPE WAS A WAY OF RELIGION AND WITCH HUNTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT BECAUSE THE BIG BEST-SELLERS OF EARLY MODERN EUROPE WERE NOT COPERNICUS AND GALILEO.
THE BIGGEST BEST-SELLERS WERE RELIGIOUS TRACKS AND WITCH-HUNTING MANUALS.
>> AND ALSO THE BIBLE, AND INDIVIDUAL RELIGION.
>> IT BROKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT NOT IN FAVOR OF SCIENCE, BUT IN FAVOR OF MORE AND MORE EXTREME RELIGIOUS SECTS, AND YOU GOT, AGAIN, THE WARS OF RELIGION IN EUROPE CULMINATING IN THE 30 YEARS WAR WHICH WAS ARGUABLY THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE WAR IN EUROPEAN HISTORY, AT LEAST UNTIL THE TWO WORLD WARS OF THE 20th CENTURY.
FOR THE SAME REASONS THAT WE SEE THE SPREAD OF FAKE NEWS AND THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND SO FORTHRIGHT NOW, WHEN YOU MAKE THE PRODUCTION OF INFORMATION EASIER, WHAT YOU GET IS NOT NECESSARILY FACTS.
WHAT YOU GET IS A LOT OF JUNK INFORMATION, A LOT OF FAKE NEWS AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH, IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY OR PRODUCE INFORMATION.
YOU NEED INSTITUTIONS, COSTLY INSTITUTIONS THAT MAKE THE EFFORT TO SEPARATE, RELIABLE INFORMATION WHICH IS RARE KIND OF INFORMATION FROM THE FLOOD OF UNRELIABLE INFORMATION, AND IN EARLY MODERN EUROPE, IT TOOK 200 YEARS TO CREATE SUCH INSTITUTIONS LIKE NEWSPAPERS, LIKE SCIENTIFIC ASSOCIATIONS.
YOU KNOW, SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS, THEY DON'T RUN AFTER USER ENGAGEMENT.
THE ALGORITHMS TODAY ON SOCIAL MEDIA ARE EXACTLY LIKE THE FIRST WAVE OF PUBLISHERS IN THE 15th AND 16th CENTURY.
IN THE 16th CENTURY, THEY ALSO RAN AFTER USER ENGAGEMENT.
WE WANT USER ENGAGEMENT, AND IF YOU PRODUCE A BOOK BY COPERNICUS ABOUT THE MOVEMENT OF THE PLANET, NOBODY BUYS IT.
IT'S BORING, BUT IF YOU PUBLISH A WITCH-HUNTING MANUAL THAT TELLS YOU THAT THERE IS A WORLDWIDE CONSPIRACY OF WITCHES LED BY SATAN, AND THEY HAVE ORGIES AND CANNIBALISM AND CHANT SACRIFICE, AND THEY TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD, AND THEY ARE PART OF THIS CONSPIRACY, AND THESE ARE A FEW SIGNS HOW YOU CAN IDENTIFY THESE WITCHES IN YOUR TOWN, IN YOUR VILLAGE AND KILL THEM.
THESE WERE THE BIG BEST-SELLERS, AND THIS LED TO THIS CRAZE OF THE -- OF THE WITCH HUNTS WHICH WAS NOT A MEDIEVAL PHENOMENON.
IN MEDIEVAL, WITCH HUNTING WAS A VERY RARE -- PEOPLE DIDN'T CARE SO MUCH ABOUT WITCHES IN MEDIEVAL EUROPE.
THE WITCH HUNTS WERE A MODERN PHENOMENON, IGNITED IN PART BY THE PRINT REVOLUTION AND BY THIS FLOOD OF WITCH-HUNTING MANUALS WHICH WERE GOOD FOR USER ENGAGEMENT, AND VERY BAD FOR EVERYTHING ELSE.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE THAT MAKES IT FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM EVERY PREVIOUS PART OF THE INFORMATION REVOLUTION IS YOU SAY THAT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, A.I., ARE GOING TO BE FULL-FLEDGED MEMBERS OF OUR INFORMATION NETWORKS POSSESSING THEIR OWN AGENCY.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THEIR OWN WILL.
>> YES.
>> THEY'RE GOING TO DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS?
ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE PLANNING?
ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE FREE WILL?
>> YOU DON'T NEED CONSCIOUSNESS AND FEELINGS IN ORDER TO HAVE GOALS AND AIMS.
WHEN OPENAI MADE GPT 4, THEY WANTED TO TEST WHAT THIS NEW A.I.
COULD DO.
THEY GAVE IT THE TASK OF SOLVING CAPCHA PUZZLES.
IT'S THE PUZZLES YOU ENCOUNTER ONLINE WHEN YOU TRY TO ACCESS A WEBSITE AND THE WEBSITE NEEDS TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU'RE A HUMAN OR A ROBOT.
NOW GPT 4 COULD NOT SOLVE THE CAPCHA, BUT IT ACCESSED A WEBSITE WHERE YOU CAN HIRE PEOPLE ONLINE TO DO THINGS FOR YOU, AND IT WANTED TO HIRE A HUMAN WORKER TO SOLVE THE CAPCHA PUZZLE FOR IT.
NOW THE HUMAN GOT SUSPICIOUS.
IT WROTE TO GPT 4 ONLINE, WHAT'S HAPPENING?
WHY DO YOU NEED SOMEBODY TO SOLVE CAPCHA PUZZLES FOR YOU?
ARE YOU A ROBOT?
THE HUMAN ASKED, ARE YOU A ROBOT?
AND GPT 4 SAID, NO.
I'M NOT A ROBOT.
I'M A HUMAN, BUT I HAVE A VISION IMPAIRMENT, WHICH IS WHY I HAVE DIFFICULTY WITH THESE CAPCHA PUZZLES.
THIS IS WHY I WANT TO HIRE YOU, AND THE HUMAN WAS DUPED AND SOLVED THE CAPCHA PUZZLE FOR GPT 4.
NOW GPT 4 HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS.
IT HAS NO FEELINGS.
IT DIDN'T FEEL ANXIOUS WHEN THE HUMAN KIND OF QUESTIONED IT.
IT DIDN'T FEEL HAPPY WHEN IT MANAGED TO FOOL THE HUMAN.
IT WAS GIVEN A GOAL, AND IT PURSUED THIS GOAL BY MAKING UP, FOR INSTANCE, EXCUSES THAT NOBODY TOLD IT WHAT TO DO.
THAT'S THE KIND OF REALLY AMAZING AND FRIGHTENING THING ABOUT THESE SITUATIONS.
WHEN FACEBOOK GAVE THE ALGORITHM THE AIM OF INCREASED USER ENGAGEMENT, THE MANAGERS OF FACEBOOK DID NOT ANTICIPATE THAT IT WILL DO IT BY SPREADING HATE-FILLED CONSPIRACY THEORIES.
THIS IS SOMETHING THE ALGORITHM DISCOVERED BY ITSELF.
THE SAME WITH THE CAPCHA PUZZLE, AND THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM WE ARE FACING WITH A.I.
>> YOU CONCLUDE "NEXUS," YOUR BOOK, WITH A STATEMENT THAT THE DECISIONS WE ALL MAKE IN THE COMING YEARS WILL DETERMINE WHETHER SUMMONING THIS ALIEN INTELLIGENCE, MEANING A.I., THE BEGINNING OF A HOPEFUL NEW CHAPTER IN THE EVOLUTION OF LIFE.
SO I HAVE THAT QUESTION.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY WE?
I MEAN, YOU SAID THAT IT'S JUST IN THE HANDS OF A VERY FEW PEOPLE.
HOW DO WE AS PEOPLE WHO DON'T RUN TWITTER, FACEBOOK, HOW DO WE GET INVOLVED?
>> IT STARTS FROM VOTING FOR THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN ELECTIONS THAT WILL REIN IN THE IMMENSE POWER OF THESE TECH GIANTS WHO ARE NOT ELECTED BY ANYBODY, OR NOT REALLY ACCOUNTABLE TO ANYBODY, AND THESE CRUCIAL DECISIONS ABOUT SHAPING THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY NEEDS TO BE MADE BY PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF US AND NOT JUST BY A FEW BILLIONAIRES AND ENGINEERS.
SECONDLY, IT'S CHOICES WE -- EACH OF US MAKES EVERY DAY.
THE KEY THING IS TO AVOID THE TRAP OF TECHNOLOGICAL DETERMINISM.
THE IDEA THAT ONCE YOU DEVELOP A CERTAIN TECHNOLOGY, IT CAN ONLY GO ONE WAY AND THERE IS NOTHING FOR US BESIDES YOU.
THAT IS NEVER THE CASE.
TECHNOLOGY CAN BE USED IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.
YOU CAN USE A KNIFE TO MURDER SOMEBODY OR TO SAVE THEIR LIFE IN SURGERY.
IN THE 20th CENTURY, WE SAW THAT ELECTRICITY AND STEAM POWER AND CARS CAN BE USED TO CREATE TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIPS OR DEMOCRACIES.
IT'S THE SAME TECHNOLOGY.
ALSO THE 21st CENTURY WITH A.I.
IT HAS ENORMOUS POSITIVE POTENTIAL, TO CREATE THE BEST HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS IN HISTORY, TO HELP SOLVE THE CLIMATE CRISIS, AND IT CAN ALSO LEAD TO THE RISE OF DYSTOPIAN TOTALITARIAN REGIMES AND NEW EMPIRES, AND ULTIMATELY EVEN THE DISRUPTION OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION, AND THE CHOICE WHICH WAY IT WILL GO, IT'S THE CHOICE THAT ALL OF US NEEDS TO TAKE PART IN.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>> AND FINALLY, IN A NIGHT FULL OF STARS, SENTIMENTAL REUNIONS, AND BIG WINS AT THE EMMYS CAME A FIRST FOR ONE HOLLYWOOD LEGEND.
JODY FOSTER TOOK EVER HER FIRST EVER EMMY FOR OUTSTANDING LEADING ACTRESS IN THE SPOOKY HIT SHOW "TRUE DETECTIVE: NIGHT COUNTRY."
IN HER SPEECH, SHE THANKED THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF ALASKA WHERE THE SHOW IS SET, AND HER CO-STAR KAYLEE REESE WHO IS OF NATIVE AMERICAN DECENT HERSELF.
WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH BOTH OF THEM, FOSTER REFLECTED ON WHY SHE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT KAYLEE AND THE CHARACTER SHE PLAYS WERE AT THE CENTER OF THE STORY.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A FUNNY THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TURN 60, I THINK, IS AT LEAST FOR ME, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S, LIKE, SOME WEIRD CHEMICAL THAT STARTS GOING OFF IN YOUR BODY, AND YOU JUST DON'T CARE, AND PART OF THAT NOT CARING IS THAT YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT IT'S SO MUCH MORE FUN AND MORE SATISFYING TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT YOUR TIME.
IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO HELP SUPPORT THEM AND BRING WHATEVER EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM YOU HAVE TO THAT PROCESS AND YOU GET TO BE PART OF A TEAM WHICH IS AMAZING.
IT'S SO MUCH BETTER THAN DOING EVERYTHING ON YOUR OWN AND BEING ALL NERVOUS AND ANXIOUS ABOUT YOURSELF.
>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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