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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AAMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
>> PUTIN HAS STOLEN MUCH ALREADY, BUT HE WILL NEVER STEAL THE WORLD'S FUTURE.
>> UKRAINE MAKES ITS CASE FOR VICTORY AT THE UNITED NATIONS.
I'M JOINED BY ONE OF ITS MOST ARDENT ALLIES, THE POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER.
>>> THEN -- THOUSANDS FLEE THEIR HOMES IN LEBANON AS FEARS GROW OF AN ALL-OUT WAR.
WE GET THE LATEST FROM BEIRUT WITH "LOS ANGELES TIMES" MIDDLE EAST BUREAU CHIEF.
>>> AND AS THE WORLD REELS FROM THESE CONFLICTS, I ASK THE GREEK PRIME MINISTER HOW HIS COUNTRY CAN PLAY A ROLE IN PEACE AND IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE.
>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THERE WAS SO MUCH TRAUMATIZING ABOUT THE FOUR YEARS DONALD WAS IN OFFICE.
>> BESTSELLING AUTHOR MARY TRUMP TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT HER PERSONAL STRUGGLES AS HER UNCLE RUNS FOR THE PRESIDENCY AGAIN ALL IN HER NEW MEMOIR, "WHO COULD EVER LOVE YOU?"
♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR&COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B.POITA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.
MARK J.BLECHNER.
THE D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ COONEY FOUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR OUTSIDE THE UNITED NATIONS IN NEW YORK WHERE PRESIDENT BIDEN TODAY MADE HIS FINAL ADDRESS IN THAT ROLE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
AN AUDIENCE OF MORE THAN 100 WORLD LEADERS ALL GRAPPLING WITH AN INCREASINGLY UNSTABLE AND VOLATILE REALTY AND HIGH ON THE AGENDA FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS UKRAINE.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE STOOD UP.
I ASK THE PEOPLE OF THIS CHAMBER TO STAND UP FOR THEM.
THE GOOD NEWS IS PUTIN'S WAR HAS FAILED, AND -- AT ITS CORE AIM.
HE SET OUT TO DESTROY UKRAINE, BUT UKRAINE IS STILL FREE.
HE SET OUT TO WEAKEN NATO, BUT NATO IS BIGGER, STRONGER, MORE UNITED THAN EVER BEFORE WITH TWO NEW MEMBERS, FINLAND AND SWEDEN.
WE CANNOT LET UP.
THE WORLD HAS ANOTHER CHOICE TO MAKE -- WILL WE SUSTAIN OUR SUPPORT TO HELP UKRAINE WIN THIS WAR AND PRESERVE ITS FREEDOM, OR WALK AWAY OF THAT AGGRESSION BE RENEWED AND A NATION BE DESTROYED.
I KNOW MY ANSWER.
WE CANNOT GROW WEARY.
WE CANNOT LOOK AWAY, AND WE WILL NOT LET UP ON OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.
>> NOW THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, AS YOU SAW, WAS IN THE AUDIENCE.
HE IS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES TO PRESENT WHAT HE CALLS HIS VICTORY PLAN TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, TO CONGRESS, AND HE HOPES TO BOTH ABOUT THEAL CANDIDATES.
ON SUNDAY -- PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.
ON SUNDAY HE KICKED OFF THIS TRIP WITH A VISIT TO A MUNITIONS FACTORY IN PENNSYLVANIA, SIGNING AN ARTILLERY SHARE AND THANKING WORKERS FOR THEIR HELP.
THERE'S STILL ONE REQUEST THAT UKRAINE'S LEADER IS DESPERATE TO HAVE HEARD AND THAT IS PERMISSION TO USE U.S.-MADE AND OTHER ALLIED LONG-RANGE MISSILES ON TARGETS INSIDE RUSSIA.
ONE COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN OUTSPOKEN ON THIS ISSUE IS UKRAINE'S NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR POLAND, AND THE FOREIGN MINISTER IS JOINING ME NOW.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> HELLO.
>> HI.
SO YOU WERE IN THE ROOM FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH.
SO I WANT TO ASK YOU TO COMMENT.
HE SAID AS OF NOW PUTIN HAS BEEN DEFEATED.
HE HAS LOST IN TERMS OF HIS MAIN AIM TO OVERTURN AND TO DESTROY DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
>> HIS AIM WAS TO RECOLONIZE UKRAINE, AND HE THOUGHT IT WOULD TAKE THREE DAYS.
AND HE'S CLEARLY FAILED IN THAT.
UKRAINE IS DEMOCRATIC, IT'S FIGHTING, IT'S RECEIVING A LOT OF ASSISTANCE.
RUSSIA IS UNDERPERFORMING, UKRAINE, THE WEST, THE UNITED STATES, WE ARE OVERPERFORMING AND NEED TO STAY THE COURSE UNTIL PUTIN RUNS OUT OF RECRUITS AND RESOURCES.
POLAND IS DOING ITS BIT.
WE ARE IN OUR 45th ASSISTANCE PACKAGE, $4.3 BILLION OF A MILITARY EQUIPMENT ALONE, $1.6 MILLION REFUGEES -- 1.6 MILLION REFUGEES IN POLAND, 80% OF WESTERN ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE COMES THROUGH POLAND.
AND WE WILL STAY THE COURSE.
>> YOU WILL STAY THE COURSE, YOU'RE A FRONTLINE STATE.
WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS WE WILL NOT WAVER, WE WILL NOT WALK AWAY, DO YOU THINK ALL THE ALLIANCE FEELS THAT WAY?
FRANKLY, DO YOU THINK AMERICA WILL BE ABLE TO FULFILL THAT PROMISE?
>> I HOPE SO BECAUSE IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES ARE AT STAKE.
NAMELY THAT YOU MAY NOT CHANGE BORDERS BY FORCE ON THE PRETEXT OF COMING TO THE ASSISTANCE OF YOUR COMPATRIOTS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
ALL BORDERS, CERTAINLY IN EUROPE, BUT MOST CONTINENTS ARE ARTIFICIAL.
IF WE STARTED CHANGING THEM BY FORCE AGAIN, IT'S A RECIPE FOR A WAR OF EVERYONE AGAINST EVERYBODY ELSE.
TIME OF EUROPEAN COLONIALISM, RUSSIA'S COLONIALISM IS OVER.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS HEAVILY TELEGRAPHED IS THE VICTORY PLAN.
IT APPARENTLY HAS ABOUT FOUR OR SO COMPONENTS.
HAVE YOU BEEN BROUGHT INTO SORT OF CIRCLE?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE VICTORY PLAN LOOKS LIKE?
>> I WAS IN KYIV TWO WEEKS AGO, AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID THERE THAT THE FIRST PERSON TO READ IT WILL BE PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET.
BUT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT IT'S BEEN HANDED OVER.
>> APPARENTLY ONE OF THE ISSUES IS TO BE FORMALLY INVITED INTO NATO.
ANOTHER IS THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY WANT ADVANTAGE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, WHAT THEY CALL FAIR AND JUSTIFIABLE USE OF THE WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING GIVEN TO THEM WITHOUT ANY RESTRICTIONS.
I KNOW YOU AND SOME OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES SAY LONG-RANGING MISSILES CAN BE USED TO TARGET RUSSIAN MILITARY TARGETS INSIDE RUSSIA.
BUT THE U.S. HAS NOT YET SIGNED OFF ON THAT, NOR HAVE THE OTHERS.
>> THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS ON ALL OF US OF HUMANITARIAN LAW AND OF -- RESTRICTIONS THAT RUSSIA IS BREACHING BY ATTACKING CIVILIAN TARGETS.
I WAS IN LVIV, AND THEY KILLED A FAMILY, YOU KNOW, THE FATHER WATCHED THE BRINGING OUT OF THE BODIES OF HIS WIFE AND THREE DAUGHTERS.
AND THEY'RE DOING IT ALL OVER THE PLACE.
THEY'VE DESTROYED -- IT IS ESTIMATED -- 70% OF UKRAINE'S ELECTRICITY AND HEAT GENERATING CAPACITY.
SO YES, THOSE RESTRICTIONS SHOULD APPLY.
BUT THE MISSILE THAT KILLED THAT FAMILY WAS LAUNCHED FROM A RUSSIAN BOMBER FLYING OVER RUSSIAN TERRITORY FROM A RUSSIAN AIRFIELD.
GIVE ME ONE REASON WHY UKRAINE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TAKE OUT THAT BOMBER AND TAKE OUT THAT AIRFIELD.
THE VICTIM OF AGGRESSION HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF ALSO ON THE TERRITORY OF THE AGGRESSOR.
>> GIVE ME THE REASON, YOU'RE NATO, WHAT'S GOING ON, WHY?
>> WE ARE MAKING THOSE ARGUMENTS TO THE U.S. UKRAINE IS NOW ON RUSSIA'S TERRITORY.
IF YOU BELIEVE IN PEACE, YOU SHOULD BE APPEALING TO BOTH COUNTRIES TO REMOVE THE FORCES TO THE INTERNATIONAL LINE.
>> POLAND HAS STEPPED QUITE FAR ACROSS -- LEEND ACROSS -- LEANED ACROSS THE SKI.
YOU SAID IT'S A MATTER OF YOUR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO BE ABLE TO STRIKE DOWN RUSSIAN LAUNCHING MECHANISMS WHETHER IT'S A MISSILE OR AN AIRCRAFT, AS YOU DESCRIBE, EVEN OVER THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE IF IT'S CLOSE ENOUGH TO YOUR BORDER AND MAY COME -- BECAUSE YOU'RE NEXT DOOR.
YOU STILL STICK BY THAT?
>> UKRAINE HAS ASKED US TO DO IT.
>> YEAH.
>> AND WHEN RUSSIA LAUNCHES THESE MISSILES AND DRONES INTO UKRAINE, THE LEAST THAT THEY SHOULD EXPECT IS THAT THEY WILL LAUNCH -- WILL LOSE THE MISSILE OR THE DRONE.
THE TROUBLE IS THAT THEY ARE LOSING CONTROL OVER THESE THINGS.
SO DRONES ARE LANDING IN ROMANIA, IN LATVIA, IN POLAND.
ONE RUSSIAN CRUISE MISSILE CROSSED TWO-THIRDS OF POLAND AND LANDED TEN KILOMETERS FROM MY HOUSE IN WESTERN POLAND.
YOU SEE, WHEN YOU DO IT OVER OUR TERRITORY, THE DEBRIS CAN INJURE SOMEONE OR DAMAGE PROPERTY.
WITH HUNDREDS OF THESE PROJECTILES BEING LAUNCHED AND SOME OF THEM -- THE RUSSIANS ARE LOSING CONTROL OF IT, YOU ALSO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF ONE OF THEM HITS ONE OF THE UKRAINIAN NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.
WE SHOULD BE PROVIDING UKRAINE WITH ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENSES IN OUR OWN BEST INTERESTS BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A UKRAINIAN NUCLEAR POWER PLANT BLOWS.
ALL OF EUROPE HAS A PROBLEM.
>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CHERNOBYL, OF COURSE, FROM THE '80s.
IF IT MAKES ABSOLUTE SENSE, THEN WHY DOES, FOR INSTANCE, THE UNITED STATES EVEN OBVIOUSLY NATO, THE SECRETARY GENERAL HAS SAID THAT'S A STEP TOO FAR, THAT MEANS WE ARE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN A WAR AGAINST RUSSIA?
HOW DO YOU CONVINCE -- >> WE'VE HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS WITH JAVELINS, WE'VE HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS WITH STINGERS, WE'VE HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS WITH TANK, AND WE'VE HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS WITH F-16s.
AND THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE DISCUSSIONS.
I HOPE THE ARGUMENTS FINALLY PERSUADE THOSE WHO HAVE THE DECISIONMAKING POWER.
>> UKRAINE ALSO HAS A -- BASICALLY A MANPOWER DISADVANTAGE.
THE RUSSIANS HAVE A MUCH, MUCH BIGGER POOL TO DRAW UPON.
AND YOU HAVE SAID, POLAND HAS SAID THAT THERE IS AN ATTEMPT, MAYBE UNDER WAY ALREADY, TO SORT OF RAISE A UKRAINIAN FOREIGN LEGION ON YOUR TERRITORY AND TO TRAIN THEM AND TO BE ABLE TO SEND THEM BACK INTO UKRAINE TO FIGHT.
WHERE IS THAT GOING?
WHAT'S THAT'S ALL ABOUT?
>> WE ARE READY TO TRAIN A UKRAINIAN UNIT AND EQUIP IT.
UKRAINIAN SIDE NEEDS TO PROVIDE THE RECRUITS.
BUT IF THIS WORKS, I THINK OTHER COUNTRIES MAY FOLLOW.
I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO FINANCIAL INCENTIVES FOR UKRAINIAN REFUGEES IN WESTERN EUROPE TO STAY IN WESTERN EUROPE.
PEOPLE SHOULD GO BACK AND DEFEND THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
AND IT'S NOT A HUMAN RIGHT TO BE PAID SOCIAL SECURITY, TO BE A DRAFT DODGER.
SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD ADDRESS, TOO.
>> IN TERMS OF WHAT I'VE READ FROM VARIOUS, AGAIN, FRONTLINE STATES SUCH AS YOURSELF, SUCH AS THE BALTICS, THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED THAT DESPITE ALL THE PROMISES OF WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION, IT JUST DOESN'T GET THERE IN TIME AND FAST ENOUGH.
AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HIMSELF HAS OUTLINED STILL 2.5 YEARS INTO THIS WAR MANY OF THE PROMISES ARE EITHER NOT ABLE TO BE FULFILLED INSTANTLY, OR THEY'RE PROMISES FOR DOWN THE LINE.
THEY'RE JUST NOT GETTING THERE IN TIME.
>> WE FEEL WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN, AND WE ARE A FRONTLINE STATE.
YES, IT TAKES THE EFFORT OF THE ENTIRE WEST.
BUT REMEMBER, UKRAINE HAS RECEIVED ROUGHLY 260 BILLION EUROS OR DOLLARS, DEPENDING HOW COUNT.
WE ARE FRONTLOADING A LOAN BASED ON FROZEN RUSSIAN ASSETS.
UKRAINE'S INDIGENOUS ARMS INDUSTRY HAS SOME SPARE CAPACITY.
WE NEED TO MAKE INVESTMENT INTO THAT.
AND UKRAINE ALSO NEEDS TO RAMP UP ITS RECRUITMENT EFFORTS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS.
SO EVERYBODY HAS TO DO THAT BIT.
WE NEED TO STAY THE COURSE.
THESE COLONIAL WARS UNFORTUNATELY TAKE A LITTLE LONGER.
BUT I BELIEVE IN A YEAR OR SO PUTIN WILL RUN OUT OF HUMAN AND MATERIAL RESOURCES TO CONTINUE THIS AGGRESSION.
>> DO YOU THINK UKRAINE HAS A YEAR OR SO TO WAIT?
>> THOSE ARE UKRAINIAN DECISIONS.
BUT WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE ATTIRED BY THIS WAR BECAUSE IT'S NOT WE WHO ARE MAKING THE SACRIFICES.
WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO UPHOLD PRINCIPLES AND SUSTAIN OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.
>> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE FROM THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN KAMALA HARRIS FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND DONALD TRUMP FOR THE REPUBLICANS.
ESSENTIALLY SHE WAS POINTING OUT THAT IN HER VIEW DONALD TRUMP WOULD POTENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, REWARD OR HELP PUTIN.
LET'S LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID.
>> PUTIN WOULD BE SITTING IN KYIV WITH HIS EYES ON THE REST OF EUROPE STARTING WITH POLAND.
AND WHY DON'T YOU TELL THE 800,000 POLISH AMERICANS RIGHT HERE IN PENNSYLVANIA HOW QUICKLY YOU WOULD GIVE UP FOR THE SAKE OF FAVOR AND WHAT YOU THINK IS A FRIENDSHIP WITH WHAT IS KNOWN TO BE A DICTATOR WHO WOULD EAT YOU FOR LUNCH.
>> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
>> WELL, WE LIKE IT WHEN U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES VIE FOR THE SUPPORT OF THE POLISH COMMUNITY.
KAMALA HARRIS SAID THAT -- ABOUT POLES IN PENNSYLVANIA, I'M GOING TO MICHIGAN TO TELL OUR PEOPLE THAT NATO'S IMPORTANT, TO THANK THEM FOR THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE ENLARGMENT OF NATO 20 YEARS AGO.
AND YES, THAT POLAND'S SECURITY AND THE SECURITY OF EUROPE ARE, WE BELIEVE, IMPORTANT SUBJECTS.
>> AND JUST ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT WEAPONS AND ARMS.
WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF ANALYSIS ABOUT HOW AFTER THE COLD WAR ENDED THERE WAS MEANT TO BE A PEACE DIVIDEND.
SO A LOT OF ARMS FACTORIES -- >> THERE WAS.
>> RIGHT.
-- WERE MOTHBALLED.
NOW WHEN YOU NEED THEM BECAUSE THINGS HAVE CHANGED, THEY JUST HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET UP TO SPEED QUICK ENOUGH.
HOW DO YOU SEE THE BIG PICTURE OF EUROPEAN ARMS INDUSTRIES TRYING TO MEET THIS MOMENT?
>> ACTUALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND -- HIS PREDECESSORS WERE RIGHT ON THIS, THAT EUROPE SHOULD BE SPENDING MORE.
POLAND HAS BEEN SPENDING A SOLID 2% OF GDP ON DEFENSE FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS.
THIS YEAR WE HAD 4.3, NEXT YEAR 4.7%.
BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT, EUROPE DIDN'T JUST DISARM, IT ALSO DEINDUSTRIALIZED IN THE DEFENSE FIELD, AND WE NEED TO RAMP UP CAPACITY AND PRODUCTION, AND WE NEED TO FAIRLY SHARE THE BURDEN OF THAT WHICH IS WHY I'M A SUPPORTER OF THE EUROPEAN DEFENSE BUDGET WHICH -- WHERE WE MAKE CONTRIBUTIONS IN PROPORTION TO GDP.
YES, WE NEED TO STAND FIRMER ON OUR OWN FEET SO AS TO SUPPORT AMERICAN LEADERSHIP AROUND THE WORLD.
>> AND FINALLY, PRESIDENT BIDEN REFERRED TO THIS BEING HIS LAST SPEECH, LAST ADDRESS AS PRESIDENT.
HE GAVE THE WHOLE SWEEPING VIEW OF HISTORY FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS, SAYING THAT IT'S OFTEN BEEN REALLY GRIM PERIODS IN HISTORY, BUT LEADERS HAVE GOTTEN OVER IT.
AND THINGS HAVE GOT BETTER.
WHEN YOU SEE THIS BACKDROP, DO YOU THINK ONE CAN BE SO SANGUINE?
YOU'VE GOT A RAGING WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST POTENTIALLY WIDENING.
YOU'VE GOT RUSSIA TRYING TO CHANGE THE FACE OF EUROPE.
>> A LOT OF BAD NEWS, BUT THERE IS GOOD NEWS, TOO.
IN POLAND, WE HAD POPULISTS IN POWER.
OUR PEOPLE CAME OUT, 75%, AND WE DEFEATED THE POPULISTS.
AND PRESIDENT BIDEN I THOUGHT PASSED THE VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE IN THE CHAMBER, NAMELY, LOOK, I'M NOT RUNNING AGAIN BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOLDING TO POWER.
THINK NOT ONLY ABOUT YOURSELF, THINK ABOUT THE WELFARE OF YOUR PEOPLE.
AND THAT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT, DIGNIFIED MESSAGE TO PASS TO THAT ROOM.
>> FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> MY PLEASURE.
>>> LET US TURN TO LEBANON AND ITS CAPITAL BEIRUT WHICH WAS HIT BY ANOTHER ISRAELI AIR STRIKE.
AT LEAST 560 KILLED AND MORE THAN 1,800 WOUNDED SINCE MONDAY WHICH WAS THE DEADLIEST DAY IN NEARLY TWO DECADES FOR THAT COUNTRY.
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE FLEEING THEIR HOMES IN SEARCH OF SAFETY.
THESE IMAGES SHOWING VEHICLES LINED UP AT THE LEBANON-SYRIA BORDER.
OVERNIGHT HEZBOLLAH LAUNCHED HUNDREDS OF PROJECTILES TOWARD ISRAEL.
SO WHERE IS THIS ALL GOING?
WHERE WILL IT END UP?
NABI BULLIS IS MIDDLE EAST BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND IS JOINING ME NOW FROM BEIRUT.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
YOU PROBABLY HEARD THE SPEECHES HERE, THESE TWO HUGE WARS DOMINATE ALL THE LEADERS' SPEECHES.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT STEP, THE NEXT MOVE, FOR INSTANCE, BY HEZBOLLAH?
>> WELL, AT THIS POINT IT'S HARD TO SAY ONLY BECAUSE HEZBOLLAH HAS SUSTAINED QUITE A FEW PAINFUL BLOWS IN THESE LAST FEW DAYS.
I MEAN, AS WE'VE REPORTED ON CNN, YOU'VE HAD THE ISSUE WITH THE EXPLODING PAGERS AND WALKER TALKIES.
THEN OF COURSE YOU HAD THE MASSIVE STRIKE IN THE HEART OF BEIRUT THAT STRUCK -- I MEAN, ONE OF THE SENIOR COMMANDERS AND 16 OF ITS ELITE COMMANDOS.
WE'VE SEEN THIS TSUNAMI OF AIR STRIKES THAT'S BEEN HITTING REALLY ACROSS LEBANON THESE LAST TWO DAYS.
SO IT'S FAIR TO SAY THE GROUP HAS SUSTAINED DAMAGE.
AT THE SAME TIME, ITS LEADERS INSIST THEY WILL CONTINUE WITH THE SO-CALLED SUPPORT AND NOW MORE IMPORTANTLY THERE'S AN OPEN ACCOUNT WITH ISRAEL.
NONE OF THIS, OF COURSE, SOUNDS LIKE A SITUATION WHICH IS REASSURING OBVIOUSLY.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, HEZBOLLAH HAS BEEN WEAKENED TO AN EXTENT.
BUT IT SUPPOSEDLY HAS A BIGGARSINAL AND HAS NEVER -- BIG ARSENAL AND THAT'S WHERE WE ARE NOW.
THE EXPECTATION IS THE GROUP WILL CONTINUE AS IT IS, RIGHT NOW FIRING ROCKETS AS IT HAS BEEN TODAY AND YESTERDAY.
>> NABI, WHAT IS THE PROVERBIAL QUESTION ABOUT THE MOOD OF THE PEOPLE?
I MEAN, THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED TO LEBANON FOR AS WE SAID NEARLY TWO DECADES.
WE'RE SEEING PICTURES OF CARS, SEEING PICTURES OF PEOPLE TRYING AND BEIRUT ITSELF, THE CAPITAL, IS OBVIOUSLY BEING TARGETED.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND WHAT THEY THINK IF THEY CAN AND IF THEY HAVE ANY VIEW OF HEZBOLLAH'S ROLE IN THIS?
>> OF COURSE I MEAN, NOT EVERYONE IN LEBANON SUPPORTS HEZBOLLAH.
BUT EVEN AMONG ITS SUPPORT BASE, PEOPLE ARE TIRED.
IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT THE COUNTRY'S GOING THROUGH A MULTIYEAR CURRENCY CRISIS THAT'S SEEN ABOUT 90% OF THE VALUE FALL AT THIS POINT.
AND PEOPLE -- OBVIOUSLY THEIR SAVINGS WERE WIPED OUT.
REALLY THEY'RE ILL EQUIPPED TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION.
AT THE SAME TIME, YES, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE, OF COURSE, HEZBOLLAH, BUT EVEN SUPPORTERS ARE FEELING THE PAIN IN THE SENSE THAT THEY'VE HAD TO LEAVE THE HEARTLAND AMID SUPPORT IN THE CAPITAL, THEY'VE HAD TO LEAVE THE SOUTH AND ALSO SOME PARTS OF THE EAST.
AND YOU SAW THE IMAGES, AS WELL.
THERE'S JUST A MASS EXODUS.
PEOPLE ARE NOW IN SHELTERS ACROSS BEIRUT, AND REALLY -- ALSO INTO SYRIA AND THE NORTH OF THE COUNTRY.
FAMILIES ARE SCATTERED, HOMES ARE DESTROYED.
OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE ARE VERY, VERY DEPRESSED.
>> AND THE IRANIAN FACTOR, OBVIOUSLY IRAN SUPPORTS HEZBOLLAH, IT DOES SUPPORT HAMAS.
AND THE ISRAELIS, THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THIS ASSAULT ON HEZBOLLAH TARGETS IS DESIGNED TO TRY TO SORT OF SEPARATE HEZBOLLAH FROM ITS SUPPORT FOR HAMAS.
EVERYBODY'S ALWAYS LOOKING TO SEE WHETHER THE IRANIANS ARE GOING TO COME IN.
THEY HAVEN'T YET WANTED TO DO THAT AND WIDEN THE WAR.
YOU KNOW, THE -- THE LEADERS, WHETHER IT'S THE SUPREME LEADER IN IRAN, THE NEW PRESIDENT, HAVE SAID THEY WILL COME TO THE SUPPORT, AND THEY VOWED, YOU KNOW, REVENGE FOR INSTANCE FOR THE KILLING OF ISMAIL HANEER.
THAT HASN'T HAPPENED.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS -- WHAT'S GOING TO AFFECT IRAN'S CALCULATIONS ABOUT THIS?
>> LOOK, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT HEZBOLLAH IS PERHAPS IRAN'S MOST SUCCESSFUL -- MIDWEST SUCCESSFUL PARA MILITARY GROUP IN THE REGION.
IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT IRAN HAS CREATED A CONSTELLATION OF PARA MILITARY GROUPS IN YEMEN, SYRIA, IRAQ, LEBANON, AND HEZBOLLAH.
THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE IN TERMS OF A THREAT.
AT THE SAME TIME, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IRAN IS GOING TO PUSH VARIOUS GROUPS TO HELP OUT IF IT COMES TO A WAR WITH IRAN, FOR EXAMPLE THE TROOPS OR SIEGE IN THAT SENSE.
IN TRUTH, I DON'T EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN.
I DO THINK IT WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT WITH WEAPONS AND PERHAPS LOGISTICAL HELP WITH DEVICES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT RIGHT NOW EVEN HEZBOLLAH IS NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN TAKING THIS INTO A WIDER WAR EVEN AFTER ALL THIS.
DESPITE THE RHETORIC, THEY ARE STILL INTERESTED IN KEEPING IT AS IT IS BECAUSE THAT IN AND OF ITSELF IS ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN THE GOAL OF KEEPING RESIDENTS OF NORTHERN ISRAEL OUTSIDE OF THAT AREA.
THE FACT IS -- THAT IF WE SAY GROUND INVASION, THAT WOULD CHANGE THE CALCULUS.
BUT UNTIL THEN, I THINK WE'LL REMAIN AS WE ARE IN MANY WAYS.
>> AND WHAT ABOUT LISTENING TO PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH TODAY AT THE U.N.?
HE WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT, FOR INSTANCE, ADDRESSING BOTH HAMAS AND -- AND ISRAEL, THAT THIS WAR HAS TO END, THAT THEY PRESENTED ENDLESS BRIDGING PROPOSALS, CEASE-FIRE PROPOSALS, AND IT HAS TO END.
HE GOT A BIG APPLAUSE FROM THE CROWD WHEN HE SAID THAT AS WELL AS ISRAEL LIVING IN PEACE AND SECURITY, PALESTINIANS HAD TO LIVE IN DIGNITY, PEACE, SECURITY IN THEIR OWN STATE, THERE MUST BE A PALESTINIAN STATE.
ON THE BIG PICTURE, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WILL GO DOWN?
>> UNFORTUNATELY THAT RHETORIC HAS BEEN REPEATED MANY, MANY TIMES OVER THE YEARS.
AND IT HAS HAD LITTLE EFFECT.
WHETHER ON GROUPS LIKE HAMAS OR -- WAR IN ISRAEL.
THE FACT REMAINS RIGHT NOW WE DO NOT SEE I THINK A VERY ACTIVE ROLE FROM THE U.S., AND ITS FOREIGN POLICY, VIS-A-VIS THE REGION HAS NOT BEEN EFFECTIVE WHEN IT COMES TO HEZBOLLAH OR HAMAS OR ANY OTHER ACTOR, ESPECIALLY ISRAEL.
IT WOULD BE HARD TO IMAGINE THIS WOULD CHANGE, ESPECIALLY AT SUCH A LATE POINT IN BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY.
I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT NO ONE HERE IS REALLY EXPECTING THE U.S. TO PLAY A MAJOR ROLE IN ACTUALLY STOPPING THE HOSTILITIES.
>> "LOS ANGELES TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM BEIRUT.
>>> NOW, IN HIS SPEECH EARLIER, PRESIDENT BIDEN ACKNOWLEDGED THE HUGE RANGE OF CHALLENGES THAT FACE WORLD LEADERS.
TAKE A LISTEN -- >> I RECOGNIZE THE CHALLENGES FROM UKRAINE, TO GAZA, SUDAN, AND BEYOND.
WAR, HUNGER, TERRORISM, BRUTALITY.
RECORD DISPLACEMENT OF PEOPLE.
A CLIMATE CRISIS.
DEMOCRACY AT RISK.
STRANGERS IN OUR SOCIETIES.
THE PROMISE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND ITS SIGNIFICANT RISKS.
THE LIST GOES ON.
>> NOW A NEW GROUP OF COUNTRIES ARE PREPARING TO PLAY A PROMINENT ROLE IN TACKLING THOSE AS THEY TAKE UP NOW NONPERMANENT MEMBERSHIP OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.
ONE OF THEM IS GREECE.
THE COUNTRY IS ON THE FRONT LINES OF ISSUES LIKE MIGRATION AND CLIMATE CHANGE.
THE GREEK PRIME MINISTER IS HERE WITH ME NOW.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
>> SO I JUST WANT YOU TO REACT -- YOU WERE IN THE ROOM OBVIOUSLY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH, HIS LAST SPEECH AS PRESIDENT.
HE DID PUT THE TODAY'S ISSUES IN TERMS OF HISTORICAL CONTEXT.
DO YOU FEEL AS OPTIMISTIC AS HE SEEMED TO BE ABOUT THE ABILITY TO SOLVE THESE CURRENT CRISES?
>> FIRST OF ALL, I UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL SPEECH FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN COMING TO THE END OF A VERY, VERY LONG CAREER.
I THINK IT WAS A POWERFUL SPEECH IN THE SENSE THAT HE TOUCHED UPON VARIOUS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES INCLUDING THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
AND I THINK IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE NEED U.S.
LEADERSHIP ON ALL THOSE ISSUES.
SO I WAS HAPPY WITH THE OVERALL CONTEXT OF THE SPEECH.
BUT NOW OF COURSE WE NEED TO GET DOWN TO THE NITTY GRITTY DETAILS OF ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES.
>> ONE OF THE NITTY-GRITTY DETAILS IS THE NEW WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT'S CAUSING ANOTHER HUGE STREAM OF REFUGEES.
I THINK THEY'RE MOVING TOWARD, YOU KNOW, THE MEDITERRANEAN, MOVING TOWARD -- YOU'VE JUST HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN ABOUT THE CHALLENGE YOU FACE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF ALL THIS.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU GUYS DISCUSSED AND HOW YOU'RE GOING TO FIX IT?
>> FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS OUR SIXTH MEETING OVER THE PAST YEAR.
IN ITSELF, I THINK THIS CONSTITUTES SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN THE QUALITY OF THE GREEK-TURKISH RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE WE'VE HAD OUR FRICTIONS OVER THE PAST YEARS.
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE OPEN CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION TO WHEREVER WE DISAGREE, AND WE DO DISAGREE ON ISSUES SUCH AS THE LIMITATION OF MARITIME ZONES, TO DO SO BY FIRST OF ALL AGREEING THAT THE ISSUE CAN ONLY BE RESOLVED WITH REFERENCE TO NATIONAL LAW, BUT ALSO TO WORK TOGETHER ON ISSUES SUCH AS MIGRATION.
AND WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS IN TERMS OF ADDRESSING THIS PROBLEM.
WHAT WE WANT, CHRISTIANE, IS WE WANT THE BOATS TO BE STOPPED BEFORE THEY ENTER THE WATER.
AND IN ORDER TO DO THAT WE NEED, OF COURSE, THE COOPERATION OF THE TURKISH AUTHORITIES, AND I'D SAY WE'VE MADE PROGRESS OVER THE PAST YEAR IN ESTABLISHING BETTER CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION.
MIGRATION IS A HUGE ISSUE, AND WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE IT UP TO THE SMUGGLERS TO DECIDE WHO ENTERS THE EUROPEAN UNION OR TO PUT INNOCENT LIVES AT RISK.
SO WORKING WITH TURKEY ON THIS TOPIC IS VERY IMPORTANT.
>> SO SOME HAVE POINTED OUT THERE'S POTENTIALLY IN ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE CALLED FOR IS FOR THE EU TO ALLOW MORE OF THE CHILDREN, THE WOUNDED CIVILIANS FROM GAZA TO BE ABLE TO COME TO THE EU.
AT THE SAME TIME, LET ME JUST GET THIS RIGHT -- YOU AND TURKEY HAVE BEEN BUILDING A BARRIER, LIKE A CEMENT AND BARBED WIRE FENCE ALONG YOUR NORTHERN BORDER.
IS THERE A CONTRADICTION WITH HOW YOU SEE THE ISSUE OF MIGRATION AND REFUGEES?
>> I THINK THAT -- WE NEED BOTH A BIG FENCE AND A BIG DOOR.
LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT I MEAN.
IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION TO DEFEND ITS EXTERNAL BORDERS.
AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS IMPORTANT TO ESTABLISH LEGAL PATHWAYS TO MIGRATION AND TOP DO SO IN AN ORGANIZED AND DISCIPLINED MANNER.
BOTH FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS, BUT ALSO FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.
GREECE, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS THE ONE COUNTRY THAT ACCEPTED HUNDREDS OF WOMEN FROM AFGHANISTAN WHEN THE COUNTRY ESSENTIALLY WAS ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE AFTER THE U.S.
ABANDONED THE COUNTRY ABRUPTLY.
SO WE HAVE BOTH HUMANITARIAN SENSITIVITIES, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE TO COUNTRIES SUCH AS EGYPT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE CAN WELCOME WORKERS TO GREECE SO THEY CAN COME AND STAY, THEY CAN COME LEGALLY, SAFELY.
AND THEY DON'T NEED TO EMBARK ON A DANGEROUS TRIP, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE -- THE AEGEAN SEA IN ORDER TO GET TO GREECE.
I THINK THIS HAS TO BE THE FOUNDATION OF A MODERN MIGRATION POLICY BY THE EUROPEAN UNION.
THE SOLUTION IS NOT TO BYPASS THE RULES UNILATERALLY.
WE HAVE A PACT FOR ASYLUM AND MIGRATION.
IT MAKES NO ONE COMPLETELY HAPPY, BUT THAT IS THE NATURE OF EUROPEAN COMPROMISE.
>> THIS IS AN ENDLESS ISSUE FOR YOU, THAT YOU'RE CONSTANTLY ASKED ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S TRAGIC.
YESTERDAY FOUR MIGRANTS DIED IN A SHIPWRECK OFF THE COAST.
FIVE WERE RESCUED, ANOTHER 25 LOCATED ON SHORE.
YOUR COAST GUARDS PRESIDENTICALLY HAVE BEEN ACCUSE -- PERIODICALLY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF FORCING PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR WATERS AND MAKING PEOPLE GO BACK OUT TO SEA AND TURN THEM AWAY FROM -- FROM GREECE.
AND AS YOU KNOW, LAST YEAR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" POSTED A BIG IMPORTANT INVESTIGATION WITH FOOTAGE OF BOATS BEING SET ADRIFT BY THE COAST GUARD.
THIS SEEMS TO BE ALARMINGLY TOO OFTEN, AND I WONDER HOW YOU CAN DEAL WITH THIS AS YOU TRY TO BOTH CONTROL AND BE -- HUMANITARIAN AND WELCOMING -- >> I TAKE YOUR POINT, AND I ACKNOWLEDGE IT IS A DIFFICULT BALANCE TO STRIKE.
FIRST OF ALL, LET ME POINT OUT THERE WAS NO INVOLVE WANT IN THE GREEK COAST GUARD IN THE INCIDENT.
IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A DINGHY TRYING TO COME ACROSS IN POOR WEATHER CONDITIONS.
THE COAST GUARD ONLY SHOWED UP TO SAVE PEOPLE WHICH IS THE RULE, CHRISTIANE.
AND WHENEVER WE HAVE INCIDENTS WHERE WE FEEL WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE WE WILL DO SO.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO RETAIN FOR OURSELVES THE RIGHT TO INTERCEPT BOATS ON THE SEA BORDER, I NEED TO STRESS THESE ARE NOT THE OPEN WATERS.
THE BORDERS AS YOU KNOW ARE RELATIVELY CLOSE, AND THEN WORK WITH THE TURKISH TO RETURN THESE PEOPLE TO TURKEY WITH SAFETY.
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS NO BOATS AT SEA.
AND ONLY THE TURKISH AUTHORITIES CAN HELP US FOR THIS TO HAPPEN BECAUSE IT IS -- IT IS TRAGIC FOR HUMAN LIVES TO BE LOST ON A JOURNEY WHICH IS DANGEROUS AND WHERE WE ARE ESSENTIALLY OUTSOURCED TO THE SMUGGLERS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHO WILL MAKE THIS JOURNEY.
>> AND THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN ISSUE THAT MANY EUROPEAN AND THE U.S. ARE DEALING WITH.
WHAT IS THE OUTCOME OF SOME OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS?
HAVE THEY BEEN CONCLUDED?
>> NOT YET.
I HAVE NO INDICATION THAT THE GREEK ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE PELOS TRAGEDY WHICH I NEED TO REMIND YOU HAPPENED IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, THAT THERE WAS ANY INVOLVEMENT BY THE GREEK COAST GUARD THAT ACTUALLY CAUSED THIS ACCIDENT.
BUT WE'RE ALWAYS OPEN, AND WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE PROPERLY, AND WE HAVE ALSO INDEPENDENT AUTHORITIES IN GREECE THAT ARE ACTUALLY DOING THIS INVESTIGATION.
>> LET ME GET BACK TO THE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN WAR.
ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR.
AND YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER SAID YESTERDAY IT SEEMS THAT THERE'S NO EFFECTIVE PRESSURE ON ISRAEL.
WE'RE FRIENDS OF ISRAEL, AND WE'RE STRATEGIC PARTNERS OF ISRAEL, AND WE'RE TRYING TO BE AS OPEN AND AS SINCERE WITH THEM.
OKAY, WHAT -- HOW DOES THAT PLAY OUT?
I MEAN, THERE'S NO INFLUENCE, RIGHT?
WHO DO YOU THINK CAN ACTUALLY PRESSURE ISRAEL?
>> FIRST OF ALL -- >> IF YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE?
>> I THINK THEY SHOULD.
AND WE'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO OUR ISRAELI FRIENDS THAT THERE WERE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET TO A CEASE-FIRE, THAT IS AT LEAST HOW WE FEEL.
AND THOSE OPPORTUNITIES WERE NOT TANG.
AS LONG AS WE DON'T HAVE A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, THE HOSTAGES WILL NOT BE RELEASED.
YOU WILL HAVE UNNECESSARY LOSS OF LIFE COMPOUNDING ALREADY ON THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE.
AND YOU WILL ALWAYS GIVE HEZBOLLAH A REASON TO CONTINUE FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.
SO IT SEEMS IT IS ALSO IN ISRAEL'S INTERESTS TO GET TO A CEASE-FIRE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
LOOK, WE DON'T WANT TO OVEREXAGGERATE OUR POWER.
MANY OTHER COUNTRIES INCLUDING THE U.S. HAVE SAID THE SAME THING TO ISRAEL.
BUT I DO POINT OUT THAT WE ARE A GOOD FRIEND OF ISRAEL, AND I THINK FRIENDS NEED TO TELL HARD TRUTHS TO FRIENDS.
THIS IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE HAVE DONE, AND WE'VE ALSO ALIGNED OUR VOTES AT THE SECURITY COUNCIL ACCORDINGLY.
>> YOU'VE JUST SAID INCLUDING ISRAEL.
OBVIOUSLY -- INCLUDING USA WHICH HAS A HUGE INFLUENCE ON -- OR SHOULD BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A STRONG ALLY OF ISRAEL.
DOES IT ALARM YOU THAT EVEN THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO HAVE EFFECTIVE INFLUENCE IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY ACHIEVING THE CEASE-FIRE?
AND YOU SAW PRESIDENT BIDEN GET PRETTY, YOU KNOW, EMPHATIC ABOUT NOW IT'S TIME FOR THE PARTIES TO END THIS.
>> MAYBE IT IS AS PRESIDENT BIDEN IS COMING TO THE END OF HIS TERM, MAYBE THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT HE CAN TO STOP THIS BECAUSE THE CONSEQUENCES ARE DRAMATIC, AND THERE ARE ALSO ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.
LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE RED SEA.
GREECE IS THE LARGEST MARITIME NATION IN THE WORLD.
WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT SECURITY AND FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION.
WE HAD A GREEK TANKER THAT WAS ATTACKED BY THE HOUTHIS.
SO THERE ARE MANY CONSEQUENCES OF THIS CRISIS, INCLUDING THE IMPACT ON THE COST OF LIVING WHICH IS OUR NUMBER-ONE PRIORITY FOR ALL WESTERN COUNTRIES.
SO THIS IS NOT JUST A QUESTION FOR THE ISRAELIS OR THE PALESTINIANS OR THE LEBANESE TO RESOLVE.
THIS IS A REGIONAL CONFLICT WITH GLOBAL IMPLICATIONS.
>> WHAT ABOUT A GLOBAL CRISIS?
THAT IS CLIMATE CHANGE.
NOT GETTING A HUGE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC ATTENTION HERE.
OBVIOUSLY SIDELINE CONFERENCES.
AND THE PRESIDENT, AGAIN, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS HE'S SO PROUD ABOUT IS HIS COUNTRY DID THE BIGGEST INVESTMENT IN CLIMATE INFRASTRUCTURE AND GREEN INFRASTRUCTURE.
WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES YOU'RE FACING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE'S THE FIRES AND THE FLOODS, AND THERE'S SO MUCH GOING ON.
>> THE MEDITERRANEAN AS YOU KNOW IS A HOTBED FOR THE CLIMATE CRISIS.
IT IS HAPPENING.
BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT JUST THE MEDITERRANEAN, YOU SAW HUGE FLOODS IN CENTRAL EUROPE.
SO THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS ALREADY HERE.
FIRST OF ALL WE NEED TO INVEST MUCH MORE NOT JUST IN MITIGATION, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE DOING, BUT IN SHORT-TERM ADAPTATION.
IN GREECE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE'RE USING SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGIES, DRONES, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, TO IDENTIFY WILDFIRES AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
AND IT -- WE ACTUALLY DID WELL THIS YEAR WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE BIG FIRE, THE THE -- THE FOREST THAT WE LOST WERE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN IN OTHER YEARS IN THE HOTTEST SUMMER THAT WE HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED.
SO WE NEED TO BE AHEAD OF THE CURVE.
BUT THIS NEEDS TO BE A EUROPEAN INITIATIVE, NOT JUST A GREEK INITIATIVE.
AND I'M AFRAID THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE IN EUROPE, WE FOCUS A LOT ON THE GREEN DEAL, BUT WE FOCUS VERY LITTLE ON SHORT-TERM ADAPTATION.
BECAUSE ONCE THESE CLIMATE EVENTS HIT, IT IS DEVASTATING.
WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WILDFIRES OR THE BIG FLOODS.
WE NEED TO DO MORE AS EUROPE TO CONVINCE OUR CITIZENS THAT ON THE PATH TOWARD CLIMATE NEUTRALITY WE WILL STAND BY THEM IN CASE WE HAVE A CATASTROPHIC CLIMATE DEVELOPMENT.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE SORT OF CENTRAL EUROPEAN PROJECT, IF YOU LIKE, ON THIS?
THE BIG GREEN DEAL.
BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SORT OF CHIPPING AWAY AT THE EDGES OF THAT.
>> I THINK THERE'S A GENERAL UNDERSTANDING WHICH WAS REFLECTED IN THE REPORT THAT THE GREEN DEAL IS A LOFTY GOAL, BUT IT CANNOT TAKE PLACE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE COMPETITIVENESS OF THE EUROPEAN INDUSTRY OR BY SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECTING THE LIVING STANDARDS.
IF THIS MEANS MAKING ADJUSTMENTS, I WOULDN'T CALL THEM CHIPPING AWAY, I WOULD CALL THEM REALISTIC ADJUSTMENTS TO WHAT WE HAVE AGREED, SO BE IT.
I THINK WE WOULD BE IN THE RIGHT -- IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
>> AND FINALLY AND TOTALLY UNRELATED BUT IMPORTANT TO YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE AND THE BRITISH PEOPLE, THE MARBLES, THE PARTHENON MARBLES -- >> THE SCULPTURES.
OF THE PARTHENON SCULPTURES.
>> THERE YOU GO.
OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS A LOT OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN YOU AND AT THE TIME GEORGE OSBORNE WAS THE NEGOTIATEIATOR.
WHAT'S GOING ON?
>> FIRST OF ALL, LET US AGREE THAT IT IS I THINK IMPORTANT FOR -- IMPORTANT FOR GLOBAL -- FOR THE GLOBAL CULTURAL HERITAGE FOR THESE SCULPTURES TO BE VIEWED IN ATHENS IN UNITY WITH WHAT IS ALREADY THERE BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE REUNIFICATION, NOT THE RETURN.
IT'S ONE MONUMENT.
AND IT'S -- AS IF CUT THE MONA LISA IN HALF AND YOU HAVE HALF IN LOUVRE AND HALF IN THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AT SOME POINT.
WE'RE HAVING DISCUSSIONS IN GOOD FAITH WITH THE MUSEUM.
I THINK ALSO THE NEW BRITISH GOVERNMENT MAY BE MORE OPEN, ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT THEIR DECISION, TO A MUTUALLY -- AGREED ARRANGEMENT THAT WILL ALLOW FOR THE REUNIFICATION OF THE SCULPTURES AND THE ABILITY OF ALL OF US TO ACTUALLY VIEW THEM IN THE SHADOW OF THE PARTHENON WHERE THEY ALWAYS BELONG.
I THINK WE HAVE A CREDIBLE CASE.
AND WE ARE -- WE WILL CONTINUE TO PUSH.
>> ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC?
>> I AM.
>> WHAT KIND OF A TIMEFRAME?
>> IT'S TAKEN US -- WE WAITED FOR 200 YEARS.
BUT THIS IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING -- I SENSE AN URGENCY IN TRYING TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.
AND IT'S HIGH UP MY PERSONAL AGENDA.
>> IT IS INDEED.
PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
>>> NOW, IN THIS BUSY WEEK OF DIPLOMACY, WORLD LEADERS ARE WEIGHING OUT WHEN A SECOND TRUMP TERM COULD MEAN FOR THE U.S. AND BEYOND.
TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S NIECE, MARY TRUMP, IT COULD SPELL NOTHING BUT BAD NEWS FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
SHE SAT DOWN TO DISCUSS HER VIEWS ON THE UPCOMING ELECTION AND HER LATEST BOOK, "WHO COULD EVER LOVE YOU?"
>> THANKS.
MARY TRUMP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.
>> IT'S REALLY VERY GENEROUS OF YOU TO HAVE ME BACK.
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FIRST BOOK AND HOW THIS ONE IS DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, MANY PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THAT YOU WROTE A BOOK DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.
IT WAS CALLED "TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH."
IT WAS A BESTSELLER FOR LOTS OF REASONS.
I THINK IN PART BECAUSE IT SATISFIED A LOT OF PEOPLE'S CURIOSITY ABOUT LIKE WHO IS TRUMP, WHAT DID WRITING THAT BOOK DO FOR YOU?
BECAUSE IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN HARD.
I MEAN, THE FACT IS YOU DUG INTO A LOT OF REALLY PAINFUL EPISODES IN YOUR LIFE, IN YOUR FAMILY'S LIFE.
>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
I HAD TO THINK ABOUT THINGS, EPISODES IN MY FAMILY THAT I HAD NOT FORGOTTEN ABOUT EXACTLY BUT HAD PUT ASIDE FOR DECADES.
AND THE OTHER INTERESTING THING ABOUT HAVING TO DO THAT AT THAT TIME BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE WERE AT A VERY CRUCIAL POINT IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WE WERE ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH IT WHEN I STARTED WRITING THE BOOK.
WE SAW HOW MUCH DAMAGE HE WAS DOING.
WE HAD NO IDEA HOW MUCH MORE DAMAGE THERE WAS TO COME.
BUT I IN THE INTERVAL BETWEEN LIVING THE EXPERIENCES AND WRITING ABOUT THEM BECAME A TRAINED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST.
SO I WAS ABLE TO BRING THAT TRAINING TO BEAR ON THE WAY I ANALYZED THE FAMILY BOTH AS A MEMBER OF IT AND AS AN OUTSIDER.
SO THAT ACTUALLY HELPED IN A WAY.
IT WAS EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT THAT I GOT THE PSYCHOLOGY RIGHT IN THAT BOOK.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LEARNED FROM YOUR MEMOIR, YOUR SECOND BOOK, IS THAT YOU REALLY HAD NOT THOUGHT ABOUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS FOR YEARS.
AND I WAS INTRIGUED BY THAT.
LIKE WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
>> UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S BECAUSE OF HOW MY FAMILY SPOKE ABOUT MY DAD, HOW THEY TREATED MY DAD, BEFORE I WAS BORN.
MY FATHER WAS -- PERFECTLY READY TO TAKE OVER HIS DAD'S EMPIRE, TRUMP MANAGEMENT.
HE WENT TO SCHOOL AND GOT A BUSINESS DEGREE, HE KNEW THAT THAT WAS THE ROLE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO FULFILL, IT DIDN'T GO WELL.
MY GRANDFATHER HAD DETERMINED FOR VARIOUS REASONS, SOME OF THEM THAT ARE NOT LOGICAL, THAT MY FATHER WAS NOT THE RIGHT PERSON.
AND WHEN THINGS WENT SOUTH WITH HIS DAD HE BECAME A PROFESSIONAL PILOT FOR TWA AT THE DAWN OF THE JET AGE.
HE WENT TO ROTC.
HE WAS A SECOND LIEUTENANT IN THE NATIONAL GUARD.
ALL OF THAT WAS OVER BEFORE I WAS BORN.
SO I NEVER KNEW THAT VERSION OF FREDDIE TRUMP.
THE MAN I KNEW WAS THE MAN WHO HAD BEEN COMPLETELY DISMANTLED BY HIS FATHER, WHO WAS IN PARLANCE THE ALCOHOLIC LOSER WHO DID NOT DESERVE RESPECT OR ATTENTION, AND AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, BETWEEN MY DAD'S ILLNESS AND THE WAY MY FAMILY TREATED HIM, IT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON MY ABILITY TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FATHER.
AND THEN HE DIED WHEN I WAS 16, SO WE WERE NEVER REALLY ABLE TO ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP THAT COULD SURVIVE THAT AT ALL.
>> SO WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?
>> IT'S VERY COMPLICATED.
PART OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE STRUGGLES I'VE BEEN HAVING SINCE 2016.
I WENT INTO LOCKDOWN ON NOVEMBER 9th, 2016, WELL BEFORE COVID.
I BECAME VERY ISOLATED.
I TOOK IT EXTREMELY PERSONALLY.
I WATCHED WITH HORROR AND HELPLESSLY AS DONALD, YOU KNOW, DISMANTLED MY COUNTRY AND CAUSED GREAT HARM TO MANY, MANY PEOPLE.
AND THE FIRST BOOK ACTUALLY DID HELP ME GET OUT OF THAT.
I HAD AGENCY AGAIN.
I FELT LIKE I HAD A ROLE WHICH WAS A COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED ONE.
I MEAN, MY LIFE TOOK A -- A BIZARRE TURN IN 2020.
BUT THEN A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER I FOUND THAT I WASN'T -- YOU KNOW, COVID, PEOPLE WERE EMERGING FROM COVID, I WASN'T.
I WAS STILL ISOLATING.
I JUST FELT LIKE I HAD BEEN COMPLETELY ALTERED BY THE EXPERIENCES OF THE PREVIOUS FOUR YEARS.
AND I JUST -- I COULD NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL OF THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT WERE PRESENTING THEMSELVES TO ME.
AND I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHY.
AND I REALIZED THAT IT'S BECAUSE I HADN'T FINISHED DOING THE WORK.
I HAVE COMPLEX POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER FROM TRAUMA THAT OCCURRED WHEN I WAS A CHILD THAT I WRITE ABOUT.
AND YOU CAN'T CURE PTSD, BUT YOU CAN MANAGE AND MITIGATE IT.
I'VE NEVER DONE ENOUGH WORK TO DO THAT.
THE TRAUMA STARTED PILING UP, AND THERE WAS SO MUCH THAT WAS TRAUMATIZING ABOUT THE FOUR YEARS DONALD WAS IN OFFICE.
AND I JUST -- I COULD -- COULDN'T GET BACK ON MY FEET.
AND I REALIZED IN THE FALL OF 2023 THAT I WAS ESSENTIALLY KILLING MYSELF BY CONTINUING TO ISOLATE.
THERE'S A LOT OF SELF-LOATHING WRAPPED UP IN MY TRAUMA.
AND I JUST COULDN'T SEE MY WAY THROUGH.
SO I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT I TELL THAT STORY SO I COULD PICK UP THE THREAD AND FOLLOW IT TO A PLACE THAT'S HOPEFULLY BETTER THAN THE PLACE I WAS IN.
>> I GOT TO TELL YOU, YOU ARE A WONDERFUL WRITER AND A VERY VIVID WRITER.
BUT THE BOOK IS BRUTAL FROM THE WORD GO.
IT'S BRUTAL FROM THE TITLE.
WHO COULD EVER LOVE YOU?
AND THE BOOK OPENS WITH YOU ENTERING A TRAUMA TREATMENT FACILITY.
I'M JUST WONDERING, YOU KNOW, WHY YOU OPENED THERE, AND WHAT THE PROCESS OF WRITING THIS BOOK WAS FOR YOU?
>> IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO LOCATE MYSELF IN THE PRESENT, YOU KNOW IN THE LAST SIX YEARS, I GUESS, WHEN THE BOOK OPENED.
SO I THINK PART OF IT WAS ALSO TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE'RE ALL TRAUMATIZED.
WHETHER WE ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT, WHETHER WE RECOGNIZE IT OR NOT, WHETHER WE'VE DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT OR NOT, WE'RE ALL TRAUMATIZED.
SOME OF US FROM THE POLITICS STARTING IN 2016, SOME OF US FROM COVID, SOME OF US FROM BOTH, SOME OF US FROM THE CRUELTYIES AND THE DIVISION THAT HAS BECOME JUST PART OF OUR EVERYDAY LIFE NOW.
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE NOT JUST THAT I RECOGNIZE THAT BUT THAT I FEEL IT, TOO.
BECAUSE THAT'S -- THAT'S WHY WE TELL THESE STORIES.
NOT JUST TO MAKE SENSE OF OUR TRAUMAS AND OUR HISTORY FOR OURSELVES, BUT TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE GAIN INSIGHT, AS WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT'S POSSIBLE.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND INTERESTING IS THAT YOU DO CLEARLY FEEL THAT THE -- THAT THE FAMILY, THE TRUMP FAMILY, IT'S ALMOST LIKE METAPHOR FOR THE COUNTRY.
HOW IS IT THAT YOU SEE THE WAY THE TRUMP FAMILY OPERATES REALLY DOES STAND AS A LARGER METAPHOR FOR WHERE THE COUNTRY IS NOW AND THE ROLE THAT HE'S PLAYED IN MAKING IT THAT WAY?
>> WE HAVE CHANGED AS A COUNTRY.
THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT IS THAT WEAK SYSTEMS BEND TOWARD THEIR MOST DYSFUNCTIONAL MEMBER.
AND WE HAVE DONE THAT.
WE DISCUSSED THE DEBATE IN TERMS THAT ARE FAVORABLE TO DONALD AS IF IT'S SOME WRESTLEMANIA EPISODE.
WE DISCUSSED THE DEBATE IN TERMS OF WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAS TO DO, NOT WHAT THE CRIMINAL NEEDS TO DO TO MAKE HIS CASE.
AND IN MY FAMILY, ONLY ONE PERSON MATTERED, MY GRANDFATHER WAS THE ONE WHO MATTERED, AND HE CHOSE DONALD TO BE THE ONLY OTHER ONE WHO COULD MATTER.
EVERYTHING WAS A ZERO-SUM GAME.
ONLY ONE PERSON COULD WIN.
EVERYBODY ELSE HAD TO LOSE, WHICH IS WHY THE REST OF US STRUGGLED TO FIND MEANING, THE REST OF US STRUGGLED TO FIND EVIDENCE THAT WE MATTERED.
AND WE SEE THAT.
CRUELTY WAS A CURRENCY IN MY FAMILY.
KINDNESS WAS CONSIDERED WEAKNESS.
THAT'S WHERE WE ARE NOW.
IF YOU WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL, WE'RE TOLD YOU NEED TO BE TOUGH AND CRUEL AND UNYIELDING, AND IF YOU'RE KIND, THEN YOU DON'T MEASURE UP.
BUT THAT IS WHERE WE ARE AS A COUNTRY.
AND WE NEED TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT, I THINK.
AND SO FAR WE HAVEN'T SUCCEEDED.
>> LOOPING BACK TO THE LARGER MISSION OF THIS BOOK, SO WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DRAW FROM THIS?
HOW DO YOU WANT US TO RECEIVE THIS?
>> DONALD TRUMP BY VIRTUE OF THE FAMILY HE CAME FROM, BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT HE WAS RAISED IN A PARTICULAR WAY BY ONE PERSON, AGAIN, WHO WAS A SOCIOPATH AND MY GRANDFATHER AND MY GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS ALSO DEEPLY, DEEPLY TROUBLED PERSON, DONALD IS AN IRREPARABLY BROKEN PERSON.
HE HAS NEVER DONE THE WORK.
THIS IS NOT SOMEBODY WHO WILL GET BETTER.
HE WILL ONLY GET WORSE.
WE'VE SEEN IT HAPPENING BEFORE OUR EYES.
SO IT'S NOT LIKE HE DID SOME QUESTIONABLE THINGS IN HIS YOUNGER DAYS AND HAS MADE REPARATIONS.
NO.
HE HAS NO INSIGHT INTO HIMSELF, AND AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN THIS IN HOW HE'S GOVERNED.
WE SEE THIS IN HOW HE'S CAMPAIGNING.
IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THE RHETORIC IS GETTING MORE CHARGED, IT'S GETTING MORE VIOLENT, THE PEOPLE, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND THE KINDS OF PEOPLE HE'S ATTACKING CONTINUE TO INCREASE.
AND WE JUST CANNOT WITHSTAND THIS KIND OF DYSFUNCTION.
WE BARELY WITHSTOOD IT THE FIRST TIME AROUND, AND YOU KNOW, FOR ANYBODY THINKING, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE VOTED HIM OUT AND EVERYTHING WAS FINE, NO, IT WASN'T.
THINGS ARE WORSE NOW THAN THEY -- IN TERMS OF OUR POLITICS, THAN THEY WERE AT THE END OF DONALD'S TERM.
PRESIDENT BIDEN AND VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAVE DONE EXTRAORDINARY WORK TO TRY TO GET US BACK ON OUR FEET, BUT THIS RACE IS ESSENTIALLY TIED RIGHT NOW.
THAT TO ME IS A SIGN THAT WE HAVE A LOT MORE WORK TO DO, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE EITHER LIKE WHAT DONALD'S OFFERING, WHICH IS A TERRIFYING THOUGHT, OR JUST DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON.
>> YOU'VE BEEN WRITING WITH SOME EXASPERATION ABOUT YOUR VIEW THAT THE LEGACY MEDIA, FOR EXAMPLE, IS NOT TAKING SERIOUSLY THE INCOHERENCE OF MANY OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S STATEMENTS, AND THAT YOU FEEL THAT A DOUBLE STANDARD IS BEING EMPLOYED WHERE THE DEMOCRATS ARE BEING ASKED TO SORT OFFING COHERENT AND HAVE COHERENT POLICIES AND TO ADHERE TO KIND OF NORMS, BUT THAT HE IS NOT.
AND COULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?
>> THE PUSH TO NORMALIZE DONALD IS BREATHTAKING.
AND MORE RECENTLY, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF AS YOU MENTIONED THE FOCUS, THE LASER FOCUS ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AGE AND MENTAL ACUITY, THE LACK OF THAT ON -- NOW THAT DONALD IS THE OLDEST PERSON EVER TO RUN FOR THE PRESIDENCY IS PRETTY SHOCKING, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE FACT THAT MUCH OF THE TIME DONALD MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.
SO IT'S AS IF THE LEGACY MEDIA HAS DECIDED ITS JOB IS NOT TO REPORT WHAT HE'S SAYING BUT TO TRANSLATE IT FOR US.
THE PROBLEM IS TWOFOLD.
THEY'RE NOT TELLING US THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
THEY'RE REPORTING IT AS IF THESE ARE THE THINGS DONALD IS SAYING COHERENTLY.
SECONDLY, THEY'RE NOT REALLY TRANSLATING HIM AT ALL BECAUSE HIS GIBBERISH REALLY IS UNTRANSLATABLE.
WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE IMBUING MEANING UPON HIS WORDS THAT ACTUALLY DOESN'T EXIST WITHIN THOSE WORDS.
WHICH IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS.
AND YOU KNOW, WE SAW THIS IN MY FAMILY, TOO.
LIKE DONALD OF THE CHOSEN CHILD.
HE WAS THE BEST, THE GREATEST, THE SMARTEST.
AND NONE OF THAT WAS IN EVIDENCE.
BUT THAT'S WHAT WE HAD TO BUY INTO.
WE HAVE EXISTED SINCE HE CAME ONTO THE SCENE AND GAINED POWER IN THIS VERY DARK PLACE.
IT FEELS ESPECIALLY WITH COVID BUT ALSO WITH HIS TREATMENT OF THE IMMIGRANT POPULATION, HIS TREATMENT OF THE LGBTQ-PLUS COMMUNITY, HIS TREATMENT OF WOMEN, THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN EXISTING ON THIS VERY NARROW BAND OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE.
IT'S ALL BEEN RAGE AND FEAR AND DISSATISFACTION.
AND TO SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THAT THAT AND WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS OFFERS US IT'S LIKE WE'RE IN A DUNGEON AND THESE OPENED THE DOOR AND WE CAN BE IN THE SUNSHINE AGAIN, AND THAT'S NOT SPOKE TON AT ALL.
>> I DON'T WANT TO MAKE THE BOOK SOUND COMPLETELY DIRE BECAUSE IT'S NOT.
THERE ARE MOMENTS OF BRIGHTNESS, OF MOMENTS OF KIND OF REVELATION WHICH FEELS REFRESHING.
SORT OF AT THE END OF IT YOU DO -- I GUESS THE QUESTION WILL BE WHERE DO YOU END UP?
WHERE ARE YOU NOW?
>> IT'S STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS, BUT I DO HOPE IT ENDS AT A PLACE OF HOPE WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF WORK TO DO.
I FEEL THAT PART OF THE -- AGAIN, IMPETUS WRITING THIS BOOK WAS THAT I WAS SO STUCK AND I -- I HAD OPPORTUNITIES HANDED TO ME BECAUSE OF THE FIRST BOOK THAT I WASN'T ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF BECAUSE I WAS SO BROKEN.
I WANTED TO CHANGE THAT.
PART OF THAT WAS RECOGNIZING THAT BY VIRTUE OF SOME OF THE WORK I'VE DONE, BY VIRTUE OF WHERE DONALD AND INDIAED UP, I DO -- AND I ENDED UP, DIAMETRICALLY AS FAR APART AS LITERALLY AND METAPHORICALLY, I HAVE SOME POWER HERE, TOO, AND I WANT TO USE IT TO HELP.
I WANT TO HELP CHANGE.
I WANT TO CONTRIBUTE.
AND THAT -- THAT CAN BE SCARY, BUT IT'S ALSO A PRIVILEGE.
>> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE I WILL SAY, LIKE I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, THAT IT -- THAT YOUR EXPERTISE, YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE AND FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIP CAME AT A TIME -- BECAME PUBLIC AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE REALLY KIND OF WANTED TO UNDERSTAND LIKE WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.
WHAT DO YOU HOPE YOUR CONTRIBUTION WILL BE GOING FORWARD?
>> ASSUMING WE GET THROUGH THIS ELECTION IN A WAY THAT KEEPS US INTACT AND KEEPS OUR DEMOCRACY INTACT, I WANT TO BE PART OF PROJECT THAT STRENGTHENS DEMOCRACY SO THAT WE DON'T EVER HAVE TO FIGHT THIS FIGHT AGAIN.
FEELS LIKE WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING THIS ACTION AGAINST ENCROACHING FASCISM FOR YEARS NOW.
AND IT -- IT WEAKENS US.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S ATTRITION.
IT LEAVES US VULNERABLE.
SO WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN DEMOCRACY.
ACTUALLY I MEAN, I DON'T THINK AMERICA'S EVER BEEN A TRUE DEMOCRACY.
WE NEED TO MAKE IT ONE.
WE NEED TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY REPRESENTATIVE TO ALL OF ITS PEOPLE WHO ALL HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND MAKE THIS AS LEVEL A PLAYING FIELD AS WE POSSIBLY CAN.
BUT SORT OF MORE IMMEDIATELY, I REALLY HOPE TO BE PART OF THE CONVERSATION THAT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL THAT BEING A FULLY REALIZED HUMAN BEING, BEING THE KIND OF COUNTRY THAT I THINK MOST OF US WANT THIS COUNTRY TO BE, WE NEED TO BELIEVE THAT KINDNESS IS A STRENGTH.
WE NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EMPATHY IS THE THING THAT UNITES US, IS THE THING THAT MAKES US BETTER, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS -- THIS NOTION THAT CRUELTY IS WHAT MAKES US STRONG IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR.
IT'S UNSUSTAINABLE.
>> MARY TRUMP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US AGAIN.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
THIS WAS WONDERFUL.
>>> A WARNING FROM ONE WHO KNOWS.
AND FINALLY, A STARK REMINDER OF ALL THE INNOCENT YOUNG LIVES LOST IN THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR.
IN DOHA, THOUSANDS OF TEDDY BEARS HAVE BEEN LINED UP, EACH REPRESENTING THE MORE THAN 16,000 CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
THE INSTALLATION TITLED "ECHO OF LOST INNOCENCE," A POWERFUL STATEMENT THAT EACH LIFE TAKEN IS NOT JUST A STATISTIC BUT A CHILDHOOD UNFAIRLY CUT SHORT.
WE ALSO REMEMBER THE CHILDREN STILL BEING HELD CAPTIVE BY HAMAS IN GAZA AND THOSE KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th.
A SOBERING REMINDER OF WHY HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS WORLD LEADERS ARE DESPERATELY SEEKING A CEASE-FIRE.
>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM THE UNITED NATIONS.
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